DOR UC1 (Unsubstantiated Claim 1) – a mind game
om ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri-gurave namah
I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him. Jaya Srila Prabhupada !
After beginning to read Rocana dasa’s DOR, I hadn’t gotten very far along before I ran over something that caused me to slam on the breaks, stop the vehicle and then walk around it, checking the fenders, so to speak, to see if my objectivity had been damaged. Then I went back to see what I had ran over.
It was a strange thing that I ran over and I wasn’t exactly sure what I was looking at. At first it appeared to be just a combination of two groups of statements, one by the author of TFO and one by Rocana dasa that together had caused the force of the impact. I looked at the statements of the author, which although somewhat cryptic and made in an almost conversational fashion held no mystery for me and then at the statements made by Rocana dasa and his classification of the author of TFO’s statements onto one of Rocana dasa’s papers categories, that category being titled Unsubstantiated Claims. Looking at Rocana’s statements one could see that, while not exactly attempting to repudiate the claims of the author of TFO, that by his naming of them and placement of them into his category of Unsubstantiated Claims, that he had immediately aroused my suspicion of both the truthfulness of the claims and of the integrity of the person making them, the author of TFO Krishnakant.
Looking back at my progress down the road up to the point of the impact, I had to admit that I had simply been speeding along without pausing to examine anything critically in the light of modern science and the Bhagavatam. I tried to excuse myself by bearing in mind that after all that I hadn’t gotten past even the second page of Rocana dasa’s intro before this encounter had caused me to check my momentum and pause, but I could not excuse the fact that I had completely let my guards down, as if what I had entered into was something that was not intended to do what the author of it was already claiming that it had done, which was to destroy an entire spiritual movement, that portion of ISKCON which has come to be known as the Rtviks.
Surely, I reasoned, something so powerful must be entered into with a good deal more thoughtfulness and reservation than if one were simply picking up some novel and certainly should be entered into without any degree of trust in the authors claims or even in his truthfulness, save only in the truthfulness of his intention, which, in the author of this DOR papers very own words was to defeat the Rtviks, or in other words to destroy them and with such an intention always in mind one could not trust that anything in his paper, not even a single word of it would be deliberately unintentional or its effect upon his readers left to happenstance as it was ultimate, those readers who he was hoping would function as judge, jury and perhaps even the executioners of the members of the spiritual movement that he had, through his words; turned them against.
Looking at it this way and considering my progress up to the point of the impact, I noticed that already developed prejudices through the reading of Rocana’s paper, some in favor of its author who work to begin with appeared very sincere and very scholarly but others had developed towards both TFO and its author. Thus by the time of the impact, there had been enough structural damage, so to speak; already, to increase the effect of the impact of whatever it was, this thing that I had run into.
This was what I had run over:
Rocana quotes:
“Although some of the issues thrown up in confronting these discrepancies may seem quite radical, even painful to deal with, we feel that tackling them now will greatly minimize future confusion and potential deviation. It is not unprecedented that guru systems in ISKCON have come under quite radical review. In the past, symbols have been removed, ceremonies curtailed and paradigms shifted – all without too much long-term disruption.” (TFO Krishnakant)
And then Rocana adds:
UC 1: We are told that some seemingly radical issues will be introduced in The Final Order, and they are being compared to ‘removed symbols, curtailed ceremonies and shifted paradigms’, but no specifics are given to make this understandable. (DOR- Rocana dasa)
Since I couldn’t make out exactly what the thing was that I had encountered I checked myself again, a little more closely to see if that might clue me in as to the nature of the road hazard a little better. The damage wasn’t much, not enough to cause a wreck, just enough to spatter mud all over the windshield and throw out the alignment just a bit. In other words what I had ran over affected how I saw the author of TFO after running over it and how I was inclined to regard anything he wrote or claimed and that was with distrust and suspicion.
I looked at the two groups of statements separately, the statements of the author of TFO first and then Rocana dasa’s statements and what else he was doing in an effort to deduce the source of the prejudices that I’d picked up. Going over the statements of Krishnakant there was nothing about them that aroused distrust and suspicion but when I got to Rocana’s statements and whatnot I had the same response that I had previously had.
For a while I really couldn’t make heads of it. What Rocana dasa appeared to be doing seemed purely scientific, an astute observation coupled with a qualification and quantification of the collected data. In other words it had the appearance of something designed to spark an intelligent consideration but that wasn’t the effect that I was getting from it, which was an emotional reaction. It was then that it hit me; just exactly what it was that I had ran over.
What Rocana dasa had placed in the way of everyone reading through his paper is referred to in logic as a rhetorical device and the reason that I hadn’t recognized it right off the bat was because Rocana dasa wasn’t using it in the way that people arguing on the up and up would have used it, to stimulate an intelligent response. Rocana dasa was using it in a completely different way, one that did not stimulate an intelligent response but which would instead evoke an emotional response.
In rhetoric, a rhetorical device or resource of language is a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective or action. Note that although rhetorical devices may be used to evoke an emotional response in the audience, this is not their primary purpose. Wikipedia
The emotional response that Rocana dasa’s rhetorical device was, I believed designed to evoke in his unsuspecting readers was just the same as I had experienced, the development of an unreasoning distrust and suspicion towards the claims of the author of TFO and towards Krishnakant himself.
And Rocana dasa was positioning his device in the path of his readers in such a way as it was both unsuspected by them and unavoidable, two things which increased the odds of it working in the way that the author of DOR intended it to.
This was a type of writing style common to propaganda pieces and to authors who do not have enough convincing arguments and evidence in support of their cases to prove their claims and who could not therefore even hope to win their arguments without resorting to such underhanded attempts to manipulate the minds and emotions of their readers by programming and conditioning them.
For Rocana dasa to be doing what he seemed to be doing to my way of thinking was simply unethical and immoral and even crooked and it was a betrayal of his readers trust. Memories of what Bhakta Raymond and of what he said that Rocana had done to him flashed back in my head.
That Rocana dasa’s DOR might prove its authors claims hadn’t been a consideration that had even entered my mind before I began reading it. The reason why of this might be surprising to Rocana dasa’s readers though. The reason that I had never even considered that Rocana dasa might prove his case against the Rtviks was because Rocana dasa had already accepted that a spiritual master could accept disciples after his physical disappearance. So it wasn’t at all surprising to me that Rocana dasa could not prove his case with evidence and argument, what surprised me was that years after our e-mail exchanges in which he accepted this fact, however ungraciously, being overpowered simply by the weight of the arguments and evidence that I presented him with that he would still be at it, still trying to prove that the Rtviks were something that through logical inference that he’d already accepted that they weren’t. None of this is common knowledge but unless Rocana or Rocana’s disciples have the foresight to cull it from his e-mails and burn his hard drive then whatever the anti-rtviks build up based upon Rocana dasa’s input will lack the longevity that they hope for, for it will have been built upon shifting sands.
Unable to prove that the Rtviks were asiddhantic, nor even that Srila Prabhupada hadn’t intended for the system of initiation that he had put into place during his lifetime to continue after his physical disappearance, Rocana dasa had apparently set about conditioning his audience in such a way as to get them to react emotionally rather than intelligently to Krishnakant, TFO and the Rtviks claims, knowing that if he can succeed in prejudicing them that in such a state that they would be unable to view the evidence objectively and see the arguments and evidence clearly to have a wholly intelligent response to them. The success of such a tactic would however depend upon how strongly his audience could be prejudiced and to prejudice them strongly would require repeated usages of such a device or other means by which their prejudices could be evoked.
To be fair at this stage it was still too early on in Rocana dasa’s paper to determine if Rocana dasa was doing what he was doing deliberately or consciously or whether he just had a knack for it, meaning that some subconscious area of Rocana dasa’s was just responding to his desires by supplying him with the means most likely to achieve them. As strange as it may sound, this theory does appear to have some sastric and psychological evidence backing it up:
Bg 7.21 — I am in everyone’s heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.
It also occurred to me at this time that probably not one in ten of Rocana dasa’s readers would have even noticed what I had noticed, would have even have felt a bump when they ran over it. So why had I, I wondered? Then the answer occurred to me and it was quite simple really: The statement of the author of TFO that Rocana dasa had targeted contained historical referents.
Most proficient writers of apologetics or propaganda pieces understand that it is a good idea to steer clear of statements which contain historical referents, especially when you are presenting things differently than any living survivors remember them as being, or, as in Rocana’s paper’s case, writing in such a way as to suggest to them that the events that they remember with such horror and so vividly, may not have even happened at all, for such a style of writing is sure to evoke a response from the survivors. Such is the notorious problem that Holocaust revisionists have been faced with since the end of the second World War and still are faced with today, although that doesn’t always stop the writers from trying to write over the graves of the dead with claims of it never happening, something sure to evoke an outcry from the survivors or the victims’ families and perhaps even a Divine response and causing a living soul to wonder if just for the things that a man may write, can a man be damned?
While most of those (who I was already beginning to think of as being Rocana’s target audience, the under 40 or relatively new to the movement) reading Rocana dasa’s DOR would have been mercifully spared any living memory of the historical events to which the author of TFO was alluding to in his statements, the ones that Rocana dasa had selected as opportune and convenient to begin his attacks upon the author of TFO’s credibility with, I was different and it was due to this very difference that I had been able to notice what the nine out of ten others hadn’t noticed.
The way in which I was different was in the fact that I did not have to guess or wonder at whether or not the historical events that the author of TFO had been alluding to had actually ever happened. I did not have to guess or wonder because I knew that they had. I had been there and lived through those times and had been a firsthand witness to many of those historical events and I had survived them and, as a matter of fact, so had Rocana.
“…It is not unprecedented that guru systems in ISKCON have come under quite radical review. In the past, symbols have been removed, ceremonies curtailed and paradigms shifted – all without too much long-term disruption.” TFO – (The Final Order)
Not all of us who were in and around the movement at the time that the events that the author of TFO is alluding to in his comments are as forgetful as Rocana dasa is or wishes us to be. Such symbols of their monumental egoism as the Zonals had us crowd the temple rooms with; their numerous vyasasana’s, which we had to squeeze around or get crushed between, have left permanent impressions and not just upon our own tattered psyches, but also on our knees, while those “curtailed ceremonies” that the author of TFO was referring to, those unholy and unending guru pujas to these rascals that the Zonals had the devotees offering to them, night and day and day and night with no moment of peace in between, while mercifully no longer reverberating in most of the temples, still wake us up screaming from the nightmare of their memory.
As far as the “radical review” and paradigm shifts, or “shift” rather, that the author of TFO was referring to in his comments, nothing more surprised or saddened me about Rocana dasa then that he had chosen to trade away such memories for what his rhetorical device was aiming at.
Elsewhere, in another one of his papers Rocana dasa briefly touches upon some of the events that the author of TFO was referring to in the comments that Rocana dasa has targeted, events that Rocana himself and some of his truest friends and the greatest souls that Lord Krsna ever blessed the movement with were intimately involved with.
“I also had the opportunity, with pleasure and pride, to associate with Bahudak dasa while we were both heavily involved in the fight to de-throne the counterfeit acaryas. We had many opportunities to engage in in-depth discussion on the matters of the day….
…..Bahudak dasa was also one of the main literary contributors, and was helping to create the crucial written materials which were essential in order to keep everyone throughout the world informed and enlivened. He was, by far, the most enthusiastic and qualified participant in this noble effort. His extraordinary ability to expertly articulate the grassroots devotee’s position had the die-hard acarya-ites worried, and finally helped bring about some needed change within the society.”
Confronting our Dark History –Rocana dasa
Bahudak, I recall the day when you came upon me walking by myself, the day after the parade and how you told me then that I had the best voice of any of my kind in all the movement. Perhaps you meant something different but what you said came at a time when I felt like an anomaly, alone in all the world and the thought that there were others of my kind comforted and reassured me and where else should they be safe and sure of the nurturing that they need except swimming, swimming in the ocean of mercy that pooled and lapped around Srila Prabhupada’s lotus feet.
That Rocana dasa must have known that there were still enough living witnesses about to make it too risky for him to actually deny that the events that Krishnakant was eluding to had ever actually ever happened is shown by the fact that he didn’t deny that they had happened, only wrote in such a way as to make his innocent and unwary audience suspect that Krishnakant was trying to put one over on them. If confronted by any of the survivors of these times this would make it easy for him to claim to be innocent of any actual intent to write over the graves of the dead and just accuse his audience of reading meanings into his words what he never suggested.
Of course the fact that Rocana dasa could have just as easily used the same statements by Krishnakant to do just the opposite with them as he had done, to build trust and affection towards the author of TFO by substantiating his claims of the author of TFO just as I have done is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for even a minute and further suggests that what Rocana dasa was doing was deliberate.
Getting back to “why” Rocana dasa might be so foolish as to use a statement containing historical referents in such a way as he did when he would have pretty much known that there were witnesses among his readers who might come forward and question him is because the potential rewards far outweigh the risk. Even if some old grey beards came forward later on the damage would have already been done, the distrust, suspicion and prejudices already created in the minds of the readers of Rocana dasa’s DOR as such impressions are formed instantaneously the moment that whatever caused them to form is experienced, which would have been right at the moment of collision in Rocana dasa’s paper where they, like I had encountered Rocana dasa’s road hazard and by the time that someone thought to question Rocana dasa as to whether he really intended to suggest that the history had never really happened the votes might already be in and counted and a headstone already placed over the Rtviks grave and then Rocana dasa could still claim complete innocence of intention!!!.
There was one other factor that might have been involved in Rocana’s decision to throw caution to the winds and target statements that contained historical referents. It was something that I preferred not to consider as a factor because of what it said about Rocana and I preferred not to think unkindly of Rocana dasa, but ever it had been there, since the time I first noticed him speaking down his nose at others, sneering at and voicing his disgust for them. It was something that after so many years that I had hoped that he had left behind it but still I saw it in his attitude that he was in a way better than anyone else, superior to them, it was his contempt.
Rocana dasa has never had a very high opinion of the devotees ability to think for themselves, if at all, but please don’t take my word for it, take Rocanas:
Dear George Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thanks for your last interesting article. You came up with some novel and effective ways to get all of us thinking about … thinking. Process thinking – something that many devotees are completely unfamiliar with. You are very fortunate to have the ability to think critically and apply solid logic. ….”
12-19-201 Rocana dasa
It is my suspicion that Rocana dasa, in his contempt for others, simply didn’t think that any of the devotees were smart enough to figure out what he was doing.
With that said this perhaps explains how since Rocana dasa thought that the odds were completely in his favor, that he was betting on what he thought to be a sure thing so to speak, that he really wasn’t breaking regulative principles by gambling. Alas, we poor conditioned souls always make mistakes. Rocana dasa was gambling and to my mind he was also attempting to cheat.
In this day and age human beings are notoriously forgetful but Rocana dasa should have tried very hard to remember the words that the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krsna had spoken to Arjuna about this subject when the statements that Rocana dasa choose to use in his gambling practically fell right into his lap, practically like they were being handed to him and all that he needed to do to realize what they promised him was to use them in the way he did. I wonder if he remembers Lord Krsnas words now: dyūtaṁ chalayatām asmi – I am also the gambling of cheats,
“There are many kinds of cheaters all over the universe. Of all cheating processes, gambling stands supreme and therefore represents Kṛṣṇa. As the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa can be more deceitful than any mere man. If Kṛṣṇa chooses to deceive a person, no one can surpass Him in His deceit. His greatness is not simply one-sided – it is all-sided. (Bg 10.36)
When Lord Krsna spoke these words to Arjuna 5,000 years ago, He wasn’t just speaking to Arjuna then, He was speaking to us now also and HE was aware of us then as we are now, such is but one glimmer of His many sided greatness. Rocana dasa may have thought that he was betting on a sure thing but when he decided to write in such a way as to manipulate his unwary and unsuspecting audience at that point someone else began playing the game. Had Rocana dasa been more mindful of the words of that he was playing with, spinning in his hand and of the perfect score that they seemed to promise him, he might have experienced a moment of uncertainty as to whether he was in fact himself playing the game or that the game was playing him, but he didn’t.
I can only suspect what Rocana dasa thought that he would see when what he rolled stopped spinning, but I see snake eyes. Perhaps Rocana dasa would have done better if he had asked her to blow on the dice before he rolled them, but who sees his own Maya for what she is when she’s standing there in front of you smiling like Vanna White?
I would like to make just a couple of more comments in regards to TFO and to one of the historical events that the author of TFO was referring to in the statements Rocana chose to bring into question.
The first is a recommendation to whoever ends up publishing future editions of TFO that it wouldn’t hurt to have future editions of TFO footnoted to include some description of historical events. Perhaps even some explanation of the meanings of certain terms that the author was using might be helpful, such as the term “Paradigm Shift” for instance. Since the later is something that also pertains to this article let me see if I can muddle through it.
The term Paradigm Shift was crafted by the scientific philosopher Thomas Kuhn in his book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. According to Kuhn, a paradigm is an archetypal example, a norm which sets the standards for further activity in that field. A paradigm is a concrete example of a wider world view. A paradigm shift only actually occurs however when a new paradigm arises which addresses the important problems of the day more effectively than the old one did. An example of a Paradigm Shift occurring in the mundane sciences would be the replacement of Aristotle’s dynamics of motion with Newton’s Principia, and from thence to Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. An example of what might have been a paradigm shift in ISKCON might have been the Guru-Reform movement, but we will never know because it ended up like so many other noble efforts made by the good and noble men. Betrayed and spoiled by men who were neither good nor noble (just pretending to be to get what they wanted), it failed. Thus the Guru-reform movement never actually amounted to the paradigm shift that Bahudak and even Rocana dasa (when he still remembered it) may have intended for it to have been and its failure and transformation into just a minor adjustment in the status quo, probably explains why it caused so little disruption to the movement as the author of TFO mentions
Sad to say there has only been one Paradigm Shift in ISKCON since its inception and that has been its shift away from the spiritual leadership of an uttama-adhikari mahabagavata pure devotee of Krsna Srila Prabhupada into the hands of conditioned souls, but with what the Rtviks offer there may be may be a paradigm shift ahead of us back, by Lord Krsnas mercy into Srila Prabhupadas Divine and loving grace.
George A. Smith
Rocana Das Unveiled:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/doar.html
Rocana has trouble accepting Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa guru—– perhaps BECAUSE he is ALSO in the PAYROLL like folks at Bhaktivedanta Manor?
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
Rocana dasa’s DOR paper, and DOR supporter Bhakti Vikasa Swami, skilfully dismantled by TFO author Krishnakant here:
http://iskconirm.com/illiteracy/
Rocana Das and Bhakti Vikasa Swami cannot accept TFO because to do so would mean that they would be ‘swiftly shown the exit door’ and lose their ”positions” as ”authorities” and ”pseudo devotees of His Divine Grace”. Whereas MOST GBC ”authorities” have NO conscience in discounting TFO (as they are bereft of any love for Srila Prabhupada) RD and BVS are ”a little smarter than their unfortunate, narcissistic cohorts” which compells them to ‘search’ for reasons to try to use some ‘philosophical reason’ to ‘skate around’ TFO thus trying to ”soften the burden” placed on their troubled consciences. This is why they always “take a step backwards” after making any statement which confirms THE UNDENIABILITY OF TFO, because to do so would mean that they, (like the rest of us) would have to be content in beying just ‘honest street-sweepers’ devoid of any false trappings of power politics, mundane position and false prestige.
To waste your ”devotion” to Srila Prabhupada by ‘using your intellectual prowess’ to side-step TFO is just symptomatic of the conditioned souls ‘fear,’ and attatchment to the mundane deviations of Guru Tattva and is indicative of those who’s bodily attachment outweighs any higher understanding of true renunciation and spiritual advancement. Those persons who’s ‘simplicity and love for Srila Prabhupada’ allows them to immediately accept TFO even though they do not hold any ”official position” are the real disciples and devotees of Srila Prabhupada and should be happy and content even if they go ‘un-noticed’ and ‘un-recognized’ within the ”circus parade of pseudo-spirituality”, as this is the ‘real test’ of ones true devotion and which is what will keep one always at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.
May The Lord give strength and shower His full mercy on all of those devoted and sincere souls who through their ‘uncompromising adherence to Guru Tattva’, though they may feel abandoned and isolated within a sea of duplicity, pseudo-spiritual falsity and hypocrisy, are alway dear to Srila Prabhupada’s heart and will attain the Supreme Destination. The road to truth is the ‘most difficult’ and allows us to withstand the ‘slings and arrows’ which will always be thrust at us to test our resolve to always adhere to the true path of The Acharya, His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Many thanks to Sriman Krishnakant Prabhu for this most enlightening piece.
Vaisnava Dasanudas
Sudarsana
“Rocana has trouble accepting Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa guru—– perhaps BECAUSE he is ALSO in the PAYROLL like folks at Bhaktivedanta Manor?” Mahesh
. Rocana dasa accepted Srila Prabhupada as his diksa guru long before most of us were even born and served Srila Prabhupada faithfully for many, many years and still is, to his way of thinking and I doubt that either Srila Prabhupada or Krsna has forgotten this. Perhaps we should not either.
Dear George, fortunately most of the adherents of Srila Prabhupada’s Vani are not encumbered by Rocana’s ”way of thinking” (as you so fervently put it!), or any of the other FISKCON hypocrites that you seem to be ”star struck” with, like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert. To attempt to ‘fill in the gaps’, due to a denial of TFO with patronising, sychophantic praise of others such as Rochan Das (who should know better) is a strong indication of your own immaturity and foolishness.
Rochan Das has been soundly defeated by Krishnakant Das (as Bhakti Vikash Swami has been defeated also) by their own hypocritical, statements, that is the real point here that you fail to grasp due to your poor understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s direct instructions. So kindly direct your childish enthusiasm towards other ‘mindless’ , infantile pursuits of ”hero worship” such as renewing your membership to the Mickey Mouse Club. Though I am afraid that one day (in the not too distant future) by the proper use of your intelligence you may find that the personalities that you had so much faith in are really not all they are cracked up to be! (Life is like that George!)
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
George A Smith: Rocana dasa accepted Srila Prabhupada as his diksa guru long before most of us were even born and served Srila Prabhupada faithfully for many, many years and still is, to his way of thinking and I doubt that either Srila Prabhupada or Krsna has forgotten this. Perhaps we should not either.
Mahesh: Rocana’s Rejecting Ritvik Order is REJECTING Srila Prabhupada:
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
No doubt, Rocana dasa did accept Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru till His manifested Lila.
Now that Rocana dasa thinks exactly like the GBC and their followers think that there are many so called qualified Diksa Gurus out there, therefore, one may simply find such physically present living guru according to ones’ need.
Rocana dasa subscribes to the policy of the physically present Diksa guru which does not conform as per Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.
Therefore, Rocana dasa is against the Ritvik Insttruction of Srila Prabhupada and does not accept that Srila Prabhupada is the Diksha Guru because he has departed, no longer physically present.
So, under these circumstances, how any one with the right mind can say that Rocana dasa is still serving Srila Prabhupada FAITHFULLY ?
Hare Krishna, George A. Smith.
Devotees are by nature very kind and forgiving at heart. No one here wants to unnecessarily criticize or condemn anyone. We all understand that “to err is human.” After all, who among us doesn’t make mistakes?
The problem with Rocan dasa is not that he is human like the rest of us. The problem with Rocan dasa is that he is publicly claiming – and proclaiming worldwide – that Srila Prabhupada is now “post-mortem,” i.e. dead and gone. He refuses to acknowledge that Srila Prabhupada is still directly available to one and all – and that means you too, George Prabhu, if you read between the lines. Rocan das is stepping in between Prabhupada and all souls who were not formally inititiated between 1966 and 1977 during Prabhupada’s manifest lila (or pastimes) here on Planet Earth. Although he is not publicly revealing just who the next “successor” to Srila Prabhupada is according to his own mysterious calculations, he blatantly ignores Prabhupada’s simple instructions in this regard as per the well-known and well-documented conversation of May 28th, 1977. The devotees here consider this to be a heinous offense to Srila Prabhupada.
Not only that, but Rocan dasa has come out with guns ablazing, ruthlessly condemning and criticizing anyone who might wish to consider another way of understanding or implementing Srila Prabhupada’s formula for initiations after his physical departure. Rocan stubbornly refuses to entertain anyone else’s opinion in this regard, and he also flatly refuses to publish anyone’s articles which disagree with his personal slant and agenda on the so-called “Sampradaya Sun” website. In fact, on that site he boldly reprints the following quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, our “param guru” (grandfather guru):
“Here in this world there are thousands of newspapers and magazines reporting the stale, repetitious happenings of this limited space. So for reporting the news of the unlimited spiritual realm, concerning the eternal, ever-fresh Supreme Personality of Godhead, we could publish a newspaper at every second, what to speak of daily.”
From this statement, we can surmise that Rocan das is a legend in his own mind. The subtle or subconscious conclusion here might very well be that it is he, Rocan dasa, who is now fulfilling the wishes of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Perhaps it is he only who truly understands and follows the desires of the great acaryas of the disciplic succession. So why bother listening to his lowly godbrothers or dare stoop to their level by printing their flimsy arguments and articles? It seems that humility was never one of Rocan’s strong suits, unfortunately. I think this is the crux of the problem here, George.
When one makes a mistake or miscalculation in life, he should admit it, ask forgiveness and rectify his behavior. Devotees are always ready to forgive and forget if such actions are sincere at heart. Since you know Rocan dasa personally, then you must also know that he is not perfect or infallible and that he has made (and probably still) makes mistakes. That’s quite natural for everyone not perfected (as we all are), but if you read through his articles published on the front page of his website entitled, “Index of Articles by ROCANA DASA Site Editor,” you’ll notice the condescending tone in which he writes, as if his opinions are all-perfect, absolute and infallible. But if he knows so much, then why did he actively support and promote the phony guru system in ISKCON so vociferously right after the departure of His Divine Grace? How many souls were “initiated” (and subsequently lost and doomed) by virtue of his shameless support and promotion of his then GBC-appointed guru pals and cohorts whom he served with great pride and glory at the time?
Since he likes quoting Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, then perhaps we should carefully consider just why Rocan dasa and his writings might be so controversial to a lot of devotees here over the years while we further meditate upon another nugget of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s wisdom. You can judge whether or not this quote is relevant: to our discussion:
“Cheating and weakness are two separate things. Persons devoid of a cheating propensity achieve perfection in life, but a cheater is never successful. Vaisnavism is another name for simplicity. Cheaters are non-devotees. Sincere persons can be weak, but they are not cheaters. Cheaters say something but do something else. Weak people are embarrassed by their defects, whereas cheaters are maddened by their achievements. I will cheat the acharya, I will deceive the doctor, I will nourish the poisonous snake of my sinful propensity with banana and milk, hiding him in the hole of my cheating propensity, and I will demand name and fame from the people while posing as a saint.”
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Amrta Vani)
Just because Rocan dasa took initiation from Srila Prabhupada however long ago does not automatically exalt him or excuse him of his mistakes, whatever they may be. Do we just forget or ignore Kirtanananda’s mistakes, Satsvarupa’s mistakes or Tamal Krishna’s mistakes, for example? Again, it’s not so much that we focus on mere mistakes, but it’s the motive we must be wary of, as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta warns: “Cheating and weakness are two separate things…. Sincere persons can be weak, but they are not cheaters.”
If one falls down due to weakness and human frailty, that’s one thing. We suffer for our own mistakes. But if we mislead others – the blind leading the blind – then that ‘s another thing altogether. Rocan has set himself up as a self-styled public spokesman for the great Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya and therefore he is all the more accountable for his words and actions because he can possibly mislead and hurt so many others by his mistakes and misjudgements. Thus, it might serve him well to humbly consult with his esteemed godbrothers and godsisters here and elsewhere on vital matters of spiritual importance before he gets up on his digital soapbox, spouting off his views and opinions as if they were axiomatic truth. A little humility goes a long way. Perhaps he should try it once and a while.
If Rocan dasa continues to ignore and deny Srila Prabhupada’s last wishes, declaring that his interpretations and conclusions are the only game in town – and that everyone else is a fool – then he certainly runs the risk of being seen in the following light. The choice is his.
“I do not want to see the faces of vile persons who criticize my Gurudeva, or who support those who criticize him. They are the cause of all inauspiciousness.”
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati lecture, January 28, 1931)
“Do we just forget or ignore Kirtanananda’s mistakes, Satsvarupa’s mistakes or Tamal Krishna’s mistakes, for example?”
I would say that through your inclusion of such persons as Hansaduta among you and your promotion of him to a position of high regard that the answer to your question would be “it depends” on whether or not it serves your interests to do so.
Dear George Prabhu,
Please don’t misunderstand. I’ve never said anything about Hamsadutta, nor have I ever promoted him – past, present or future. I don’t know why you said that, but anyway, as mentioned, those were just examples.
The main point is that WE’RE ALL FAULTY (especially me) until we reach the perfectional stage of Krsna consciousness, which can only be achieved by Srila Prabhupada’s mercy:
“The secret of this science can be revealed only by the association of pure devotees… It may be noted however that transcendental service of a pure devotee is more important than the transcendental service of Godhead… We can fulfill our lifes’ mission simply by serving & associating with devotees who are cent per cent engaged in the service of the Divinity.”
(Srila Prabhupada article, 1950’s)
NONE OF US should block anyone from accessing that divine mercy. That’s why we’re upset here with Rocana dasa’s stance in this regard. He supports the idea that conditioned souls should be worshiped as if they are liberated souls. That’s what destroyed ISKCON, in case you hadn’t noticed. Spiritual deception. And it continues in ISKCON today with thanks to those who promote such apasiddhantic so-called philosophy. In other words, George, we don’t believe that Rocan is preaching or delivering Srila Prabhupada and his philosophy, as he is.
Rest assured, this is not really about you, George. It’s about Rocan and his spiritual arrogance and what we consider to be offenses to Srila Prabhupada, as well as his offenses to many devotees here and the world over. He’s a stubborn man and we’re all a little (or a lot) frustrated by his behavior because we expect more from him since, as you say, “Rocana dasa accepted Srila Prabhupada as his diksa guru long before most of us were even born…” Along with that priviledge comes a responsibility to Srila Prabhupada himself, to his orders, and to his followers. He’s the one who put himself on a pedastal, appointing himself as the representative of the glorious Sampradaya, and so he has to be accountable to his godbrothers and godsisters as a matter of duty and even as a protection for his own spiritual life. But no, he is acting so high and mighty, just like the spoiled princes whom he regularly criticizes.
This is NOT something personal, George. Public leaders open themselves up to correction, no matter how high up they climb on the social or political ladder. We are no exception. The problem is that when anyone points out a flaw in his thinking or policies, Rocan conveniently stonewalls, dismisses, and insults the intelligence of everyone involved. If this is the way he behaves towards many sincere followers and disciples of Prabhupada, then how can we ever hope to effectively “preach” or “save” the suffering souls in this world? A fancy website and some flowery words will not do the trick, I’m afraid. A true brahmana is open-minded and fair. So far, Rocan is neither.
All we are suggesting is that he step down a few notches and begin to hear from his (yes, dare I say) equally sincere and intelligent peers. It just might do him – and the movement – some good. It’s worth a try, don’t you think?
Well said, Sriman LW. Some very relevent points you have covered here!
Rocana das was part of a Guru Reform Committee. So he KNOWS the bogus gurus he supports.
50 man Guru Reform Committee was in part Bahudak, Rocana, Trivrikrama swami, Virabahu, Ravindra Swarupa, Prithu, Rupanuga and many others who later on became gurus.
SIMPLE question:
HOW can you REFORM Gurus?
Does this make any sense? Their “Gurus” NEED REFORMING!!!
Next question is WHAT is the VALUE of THEIR “Gurus” who needs reforming?
ONLY Maha Bhagavata is Diksa Guru. They do NOT even KNOW what a Diksa guru is – this is WHY they talk of reforming a Diksa Guru:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Question is HOW MUCH is Rocana das GETTING PAID for Anti Ritvik Propaganda?
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Just a little friendly advise:
Rocana das may like the MONEY paid for MISLEADING others for his Anti Ritvik Propaganda. BUT CONSEQUENCES are—— NOT so cheap: SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Thanks, Sudarsana Prabhu, but YOU’RE the writer here and I LOVED your posts. Hope Bhakta George understands and doesn’t take it too personally. It may be a little difficult for him to see through the veneer, but these things have to be said.
By refusing to publish opposing views on his so-called “independent reporting and brahminical commentary,” Rocan dasa has isolated himself from his potential friends and well-wishers here (and elsewhere), while boxing himself into a corner of self-deceit and spiritual dishonesty. Why doesn’t he just come out and admit that he won’t support Srila Prabhupada’s authorized system of initiation (although he did at one time when Prabhupada was physically present) because he is quite obviously salivating at the chance of becoming a so-called “guru” himself? He just hasn’t made the public announcement yet. Sorry, but we’re not fooled and we’re not buying it. We’ve seen it before in so many shapes, sizes and colors – but it’s all the “same sh*t.”!
Give it up, Rocan. The hour is getting late. If you’re really interested in serving Srila Prabhupada purely, sincerely and effectively, then give up the charade once and for all. Come back to Prabhupada and do the needful.
Keep up the great work, Sudarsana Prabhu, and all the devotees here. Thanks for your vigilance and dedication. You WILL be rewarded.
Non liberal fundamentalists expressing their hostility to others who do not happen to agree with their own speculative conclusions are not uncommon. but they are very wearysome. I am fortunate in that I bever have to deal with them except when I find myself writing artciles and posting on the wen sites that cater to such fundamentalists, so I am not surprised at all that Rocana would be hesitant to host you, especially when you folks keep adding insult to injury, calling him names and impuning his character at every chance you get instead of simply accepting the possibility that he may just simply think that you are all full of excrement and that what you are telling everyone goes against Srila Prabhupadas wishes.
. The mark of a non-liberal fundamentalist is that anyone who does not agree with them is either mad or bad in their esteem, something which reflects the enormous need of human beings situated in animal consciousness for conformity of perception, something which is tied in to primate programs of property and territory and blah, blah, blah and is a real pain in the butt to try to deal with, but the charge that Rocana dasa always refuses to post any pro-Rtvik articles upon his web-site is a false one, he has posted several of mine,for instance, though he did not particulary like them. Just rolling over and accepting to be flooded by propaganda pieces accompanied by a hostile crowd who show every inclination of being eager and ready to attack any of your sites other contributors who may not jump up onto the fubdy’s band wagon is another thing however, and why should he do that, what, so you won’t call him another name? What name haven’t you called him yet? Try offering him something more substantial, like polite and intelligent discourse for instance and some thankfullness when he does publish your articles, or are you to proud?
Rocanac is a conditioned soul, so what, you act if that is something that he is hiding but that is what he told me and all of his readers. He drives a bus and listens to Srila Prabhupadas tapes all day and trries to get a few solid rounds in. How could I not feel sorry for him, he’s almost as pathetic as most of the rest of you. Delusional? You know if I woke up to the lives that most of you live I’d welcome some delusions floating round in my head just to give me some happyness, some thought of myself as being special to someone or something special. to something. So maybe that’s it, but probably it isn’t all of it. Probably you guys have yourselves to thank for Rocanas negative regard of you as Rocanas conceptional view.
PS to LW, I noticed that you did not reply to my observance that through your acceptance of Hansaduta that you do not actually possess the moral high ground that the statements in your article implied that you did. Why is that?
All glories to Srila Prabhpada
Mahesh Raja Prabhu. SIMPLE question: HOW can you REFORM Gurus?
Does this make any sense? Their “Gurus” NEED REFORMING!!!
Their is a place built for those who NEED REFORMING it is called prison. That these personalities need REFORMING is not disputed as they are pseudo spiritual deviants and miscreants. That they “rubber stamp” themselves as “guru” is an oxymoron! and a contradiction.
This is like a Psychiatrist who insists he’s qualified to practice, but needs TREATMENT for his delusional insanity.
George A Smith: …. but the charge that Rocana dasa always refuses to post any pro-Rtvik articles upon his web-site is a false one, he has posted several of mine,for instance, though he did not particulary like them.
Mahesh: We hear that INITIALLY Rocana used to post the Ritvik articles the reason was TO AGITATE the bogus GBC so that he can be ONCE AGAIN be on their PAYROLL. THAT was the MOTIVE.
The story goes—— the old boys club the bogus GBC had some clash with Rocana das. So they drove Rocana away form the PAYROLL. This infurated Rocana – he went to do Trucking for money. Then he resorted to Sun Sampradaya website. It became popular because there were MANY Ritvik Articles that challenged the bogus GBC and their bogus factory produced CONDITIONED SOUL Rubber Stamped gurus. The bogus GBC were getting EXPOSED and AGITATED so they had NO OPTION but to REINSTATE ROCANA back on PAYROLL. The DEAL was that Rocana had to do ANTI RITVIK PROPAGANDA for HIS PAYROLL. Hence, Rocana das subsequently REJECTED all Ritvik based articles OR CHOPPED the MAIN points in the Ritvik based articles. The result was that ALL those Prabhupadanuga devotees who used to present Ritvik based articles were NO LONGER seen on the website again. They STOPPED sending articles to Rocana das. This is WHY many Prabhupadanuga devotees began writing on THIS Prabhupadanuga site.
Haribol George Prabhu,
Thanks for your reply. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you understand what I’ve been saying. I’m not calling Rocan names. You say that you know Rocan personally, but you don’t seem to know how he behaves toward his peers – and more importantly, you don’t seem to understand how he is spreading disinformation about Srila Prabhupada. Do you agree with him that Prabhupada is “post-mortem”?
That’s what I’m talking about, George – his words and his behavior. He may like you personally, encourage you, and print your articles because of your past friendship or whatever, but that’s not everyone else’s experience, so there’s no use in trying to speak on his behalf.
Also, I don’t know why you’re lumping everyone in here by referring to us as “you guys.” This forum is comprised of a group of independent individuals who live, think and speak for themselves. The common denominator here is love of Prabhupada, but aside from that, there are often disagreements as much as there are agreements. But the one “fundamental” principle upon which nobody here disagees is that Srila Prabhupada is the present day bona fide guru – the jagat guru – for ISKCON and for the whole world. We all agree that he is the only one qualified to be a guru, and all others are unqualified for such an exalted post by dint of their material imperfections and motivations – ourselves included. Rocan disagrees with this premise and that’s what we object to. It’s a matter of principle and not petty name-calling or politics as you seem to suggest.
We are not a bunch of fanatical groupies here who huddle together in a dark smokey room and plan out our next attack on Rocan or anyone else for that matter. We just want to see Srila Prabhupada back in the center of his own movement – and not Mr. So-and-So Swami, who just might run away with your wife or my wife if we turn our backs on him for more than a few minutes. (It happens, believe me.) Prabhupada is not that kind of guru. He is infallible. He doesn’t make mistakes. We don’t want to see any more phony gurus who cheat you or me or us or them or anyone, now and forever. But Rocan says that Prabhupada is “post-mortem.” Well, do you know how offensive that is to Srila Prabhupada? Can you grasp the significance of that? Prabhupada is eternal – and you and me and Bhakta Frank and Bhaktin Susan and Joe the Plumber down the road can all have a direct loving relationship with Srila Prabhupada, anytime and anywhere. Prabhupada never died. He is still here
– if you want him.
“But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection.”
(Srila Prabhupada letter, 13/11/69)
Actually, you should be happy, George, that there are some people who are standing up for your right to be a direct follower and disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you don’t want that? Maybe you want someone else as a guru, I don’t know. It’s up to you. But we all need a guru according to both Srila Prabhupada and the Vedic literatures:
“If you have faith in the person who has eyes to lead you, then he will help you cross the road. And if you put your faith in another blind man like you, then it will cause disaster. Faith is required, but in the right person. You must know where to put the faith. So our Vedic injunction is: ‘Put your faith to the brahma-nistham, one who is God-realized.’ Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistam: ‘One who has full knowledge in the Vedas and firmly fixed up in Brahman, God, you put your faith there.’ (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12) Otherwise there will be disaster.”
(Srila Prabhupada morning walk, 26 November 1975, New Delhi)
So we are trying to protect you and others from disaster in spiritual life. That’s all. We are your friends, George. For some reason, you can’t seem to see that at present. No matter. You don’t have to listen to us. Please feel free to listen directly to Srila Prabhupada himself on this and all other matters:
1) Srila Prabhupada’s lectures:
https://prabhupadavani.org/
2) Srila Prabhupada’s videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PL5517889893DB671A
3) Srila Prabhupada’s bhajanas and kirtanas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiaswUWyBXs&list=PLsu3dCgtC0uoWLxpBW3V82b6yUKk3jVDi
4) Srila Prabhupada chanting japa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8fea3oP-es
5) Srila Prabhupada’s books:
http://prabhupadabooks.com/
or:
6) http://causelessmercy.com/
Here we find the ultimate answer to all our problems, misunderstandings and disagreements:
“In this age it is very difficult to follow thoroughly the regulative principles and studies of the Vedas which were formerly recommended. However, if one gives aural reception to the sound vibrated by great devotees and acaryas, that alone will give him relief from all material contamination. Therefore it is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu that one should simply hear from authorities who are actually devotees of the Lord. Hearing from professional men will not help. If we hear from those who are actually self-realized, then the nectarean rivers, like those which are flowing on the moon planet, will flow into our ears. This is the metaphor used in the above verse.”
(Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 10)
George, I don’t know you or your experiences, so I’m not going to jump to any conclusions about you. You seem like a nice fellow, and Rocan has his good side to, as does most everyone. As I said, we ALL make mistakes, “especially me.” No one is claiming perfection here. But once again, this is not a personal issue about you, me, Rocan or anybody else. It doesn’t matter to me or to this discussion whether Rocan drives a bus all day, or if he’s a rocket scientist, or a movie star. Good for him. The point is that he fancies himself as a great ISKCON reformer, a representative of the great “Sampradaya,” perhaps a great devotee, etc. – yet he will not acknowledge the sincerity and wisdom of those who are also trying to serve and love Srila Prabhupada in a different way from his own. He lumps everyone in. “Give the dog a bad name and hang him.” No, we are not all one. There’s unity in diversity. So just who is the “non liberal fundamentalist”? Please think
about it, accept what you wish, and discard the rest. As Prabhupada wrote, “Take the essence.”
Finally, you once again mention Hamsadutta. I have never said a word about him anywhere. Perhaps you haven’t read my posts. Never mind. Forget all this arguing for nothing, George. Srila Prabhupada is waiting for YOU – if you so desire.
Best wishes and much happiness to you in your spiritual life.
LW writes: Thanks for your reply. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you understand what I’ve been saying.
Perhaps people have difficulty understanding you because you yourself seem confused about whether you are an individual or a movement. I say this because most of the time you are not writing as an “I” which would make it easy to determine that your comments are merely self-referential, but as a “we” as a universal, in such a way as to may anyone who is not familiar with your rather school boy antic; comparable to a class mate pretending to be the teacher while the teacher has stepped out of the room, to mistake you for a “somebody” as a spokesperson for your movement. Since you are always telling us what everyone feels, thinks, intens, etc., as if you are connected to every mind and cognizant of every little detail associated with your movement this is easy to do. I myself thought you might be someone at forst and since you leave your traders no other option but to be rude and ignore you until after reading a few posts of yours they can discover for themselves your true value and see what you are up to, I decided to simply address the person that you were pretending to be, one who with all of the knowledge of everyone and everything associated witth your movement would naturally have, the answer to your very own question which you asked of me but which you really should have asked of them, before joining.
Your question was:
“Just because Rocan dasa took initiation from Srila Prabhupada however long ago does not automatically exalt him or excuse him of his mistakes, whatever they may be. Do we just forget or ignore Kirtanananda’s mistakes, Satsvarupa’s mistakes or Tamal Krishna’s mistakes, for example?”
And my reply was:
I would say that through your inclusion of such persons as Hansaduta among you and your promotion of him to a position of high regard that the answer to your question would be “it depends” on whether or not it serves your interests to do so.
, My reply pointed out the hypocrisy of your movement, if theirs was really the attitude that you projected upon it, which was (correct me if I get you wrong) that such persons as Kirtanananda, Satsvarupa, Tamal Krishna, AND all the others who usurped The Krsna Consciousness movement [which includes Hansadutta0, should be held accountable. Now that you have personally beem emlightened to the fact that your mind reading skills have failed you in this instance because your movement obviously doesn’t feel this way (or only pays lip service to iy “For God’s sake- he said that he was sowwy”), I would be busying myself with a check list of what else I should have investigated before I joined your Rtvik movement, but then of course you might find yourself arriving at a point where you would have to disagree with somebody who is actually somebody important and might find yourself out on your ear. Then you’d have to find some other venue that allowed you to play your delicious ego tripping games.
“Devotees are by nature very kind and forgiving at heart. No one here wants to unnecessarily criticize or condemn anyone. We all understand that “to err is human.” After all, who among us doesn’t make mistakes?”
This is but one example from your first post to me of where you pose yourself as an authority on what everyone in your movement wants, at least. One only needs to examine your posts for numerous other incidences of you speaking for everyone.
Since the others replying on this thread seemed comfortable with this, your assumption to the throne, you leave us with no other choice but to accept you as they accept you and as you portray yourself as being, as being qualified to tell us what they feel, think, intend, etc. What is amazing is that you do not seem or want to admit that you are consistently doing this and are surprised should one take to heart that whatever you have expressed that they all think or feel is indeed just that, exactly what everyone thinks and feels. Take for instance the following example wherein you express that you are both mystified as to how anyone could think that you are not all as unanimous as you have presented them as being and then, in your second to the last sentence relapse into telling us what everyone thinks again.
“Also, I don’t know why you’re lumping everyone in here by referring to us as “you guys.” This forum is comprised of a group of independent individuals who live, think and speak for themselves. The common denominator here is love of Prabhupada, but aside from that, there are often disagreements as much as there are agreements. But the one “fundamental” principle upon which nobody here disagees is that Srila Prabhupada is the present day bona fide guru — the jagat guru — for ISKCON and for the whole world. We all agree that he is the only one qualified to be a guru, and all others are unqualified for such an exalted post by dint of their material imperfections and motivations — ourselves included.
Sometimes your going to get close to the mark but even then there are those among you who are not motivated by any love or loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and you do your community a disservice by allowing them to forget that there will always be wolves among the lambs. If however you simply wish to clear up any misunderstandings that you yourself are encouraging the formation of, then please resist your inclination to speak for everyone or even for a larger portion of your community than one. This will reduce the chance of someone mistaking you for an officer and zeroing in on any tempting target you may present them with. Stop speaking for others, representing yourself as someone who knows what everyone else thinks, feels,etc., or referring to yourself as a plurality. Drop the use of the royal “we.” It’s not the same ego boost but its more productive of independent thought, feelings of self worth and repect and its good semantic hygiene.
BTW, Not everyone, not even every Rtvik agrees with the the statements that you make in the last sentence mentioned above:
We all agree that he is the only one qualified to be a guru, and all others are unqualified for such an exalted post by dint of their material imperfections and motivations — ourselves included.
Not everyone agrees with it because it (and I don’t) because it goes against what Srila Prabhupada said, which was that there would be pure devotees born unto his disciples children’s children.
Your rationalization for the acceptance of the Rtviks being invested solely in the notion that there are no pure devotees among us, you either have to deny that Srila Prabhupada knew what he was talking about or deny that the pure devotees of Krsna have the authorization to initiate upon their own behalf to continue utilizinf this excuse as the majo reason that we should continue to put up with you.
Added to this is the fact that not even everyone agrees that it is a forgone conclusion that none of Srila Prabhupadas disciples are now qualified to initiate. Yours is the same effrontery as that Tamel Krsna presented Srila Prabhupada with and is accompanied with the same glaring defect and although Tamal Krsna lied to Srila Prabhupada by claiming to have examined all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples and you have not made such a claim outright, you certainly haven’t even gone to the trouble of finding, let alone examining all that are left, nor do you even care to. So since you haven’t examined all of them it means that your just guessing, just betting on your guess and that your basing the justification for the existence of Rtvik upon something that your going to have a lot of trouble with in the future, for it carries with it the idea that Krsna consciousness does not work, because if it did and does then according to both Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada, then very soon the Rtviks will be faced with the same dilemma that the Christian church was once faced with. What do you do with the pure devotees once they manifest? Put bullets through their heads?
LW, there are sometimes layers upon layers but assuming you are just a simple person who has been getting off preaching in the way that you do, I am sorry if I have ruined your fun or upset you. I find however your preaching stye, though truely magnanimous to also be presumptive. Twice that I recollect within your replies upon this thread you have let it be known that Srila Prabhupadas mercy is available to me also, something that makes me smile but which also makes me think that you do not truely have an appreciation that Srila Prabhupdas mercy was being poured out like rain long before anyone ever heard of the Rtviks. Although you do not outwardly state it to be so, it seems that you may think that the dispensation of Srila Prabhupadas mercy is contingent upon ones acceptance of the Rtvik proposal and perhaps, even upon the acceptance of initiation through the Rtvik process personally. Akthough this may be what you believe not everyones faityh is based upon belief. I do not believe for instance that Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee of Krsna, since 1976 I know that he is. Telling a person that your faith is based upon belief is just another way of informing them that you are still wandering in the darkness born of ignorance. Rocana was the TP in Seattle where I came to the movement at. There was no bhramachari program at all and I lived in the same building with Rocana and his wife and about 13 young women. Rocana and his wife lived upstairs. It was heaven for me and my memories of those times are indescribeably sweet. Rocana dasa never gave me an order or told me what to do a single time nor did anyone there, I was simply left to my own devices which meant mornings scrubbing the floor of the temple room on my hands and knees before the deities of Lord Jaganatha, Lord Balaram and Lady Subhradra and going out chanting and distributing Srtila Prabhupadas transcendental literatures, the rest of the time I mainly sang. It was a time of healing that after many lifetimes and several centuries I badly needed. Though I don’t expect you to understand this Srila Prabhupada restored my soul. I have quite a debt to pay.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Haribol!
George A Smith ……”There was no brahmachari program at all and I lived in the same building with Rocana and his wife and about 13 young women. Rocana and his wife lived upstairs. It was heaven for me and the memories of those times were indescribeably sweet”
That may be your problem right there George! Sounds like a vision from hell to me! Just think about how miserable you would have been if in fact there was a brahmacari ashram and how your spiritual life would have suffered (chuckle!!!)
It’s like these people who say……”It doesn’t get any better than this!” when they are experiecing some sort of material pleasure. I always say to them “wow! how unfortunate you are!….How pathetic!
Even though you are probably ‘the most entertaining person to visit this site’ I think that maybe Sriman LW gave you a little too much slack (due to his kind nature) and as a result you have replied to his generous comments with a tirade of attacks and gibberish nonsense. That is why I do not give guys like you an inch as you are the type that needs a good slap!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Look to your own problerms Sudarsana, I assure you that you have far to many and to urgent to be trifling over mine.
[snipped by webmaster] I don’t like people who go around threatening other people with violence or talking to otyhers like you do, theres no excuse for it and certtainly you are not licenceed by your self delusion that you are advanced devotee. You are a fool and a rascal. Admit it, you’ll feel better.
”Piety requires us to honour truth above our friends”
Aristotle
George A Smith: Srila Prabhupada restored my soul. I have quite a debt to pay
Mahesh: Prabhu, that debt will NEVER be paid by DENYING Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru for ALL in ISKCON— AND– he ORDERED the Ritvik System. Rocana das is *DENYING the master Srila Prabhupada* as the Current Diksa Guru with his Anti Ritvik Propaganda.
Here are some FACTS:
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, BUT IN THE HUMAN FORM ONE SHOULD AT LEAST UNDERSTAND THE GOAL OF LIFE AND BEGIN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS.
It is NOT possible to go back to Godhead in ONE LIFE this is WHY we chant Janme Janme Prabhu sei – this means Srila Prabhupada is there with us in OTHER LIVES AFTER to finish OUR Jail term in this material world. HOW can one be LIBERATED Maha Bhagavata to deliver OTHERS if he HIMSELF is NOT delivered IN ONE LIFE:
760805BG.PAR Lectures
Devotee: If we don’t finish our Krsna consciousness in this life, how we come in contact with the guru in next life?
Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei JANME JANME PRABHU SEI. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE.
740302mw.may Conversations
Bhavananda: …spiritual master. Then when he reaches a certain point, he lets go. What is…? What becomes of Him? He is also Mayavadi.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Mayavadi philosophy. (break) …philosophy, cakhudana dilo yei janme JANME PRABHU SEI. NAROTTAMA DASA THAKURA SINGS THAT, “ONE WHO HAS OPENED MY EYES, MY SPIRITUAL MASTER, HE’S MY FATHER, LIFE AFTER LIFE.” SO HOW HE CAN, HE CAN SAY, “GO AWAY NOW”? THAT IS MAYAVADA PHILOSOPHY.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
another spiritual master after you?
750522mw.mel
Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?
Prabhupāda: THEN THAT SPIRITUAL MASTER IS KṚṢṆA HIMSELF. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.
From the year 1966 to 1977, Srila Prabhupada did NOT give ANY order to anyone SPECIFICALLY, “YOU become guru,” so HOW can you say that they are diksa guru?
*****IF Srila Prabhupada would have ordered BEFORE 1977, then there would be no point in 1977 of him stating in 1977 WHEN I order. It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977, WHERE is the evidence of THAT order?******
Prabhupada: “When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan)
“Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he’s guru. This is the fact…Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972)
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)
Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975)
Facts:
1) the Order was NOT given. This is WHY Srila Prabhupada says WHEN I order:
Mahesh Raja: Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
2) to be a Mahabhagavata is NOT so cheap.
3)ONLY the PROMINENT Acarya is a ACCEPTED: Srila Prabhupada is PROMINENT ACARYA he IS Diksa Guru.
a) Srila Prabhupada’s books are QUOTED by ALL and WILL be QUOTED by ALL in future – so he is PROMINENT
b) Srila Prabhupada is worshiped as Jagad Guru in ALL his temples and ALL over the world – this will continue – so he is PROMINENT.
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYA, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
George A Smith writes ;
” …. Not everyone agrees with it because it (and I don’t) because it goes against what Srila Prabhupada said, which was that there would be pure devotees born unto his disciples children’s children.
Your rationalization for the acceptance of the Rtviks being invested solely in the notion that there are no pure devotees among us, you either have to deny that Srila Prabhupada knew what he was talking about or deny that the pure devotees of Krsna have the authorization to initiate upon their own behalf to continue utilizinf this excuse as the majo reason that we should continue to put up with you.”
George, you need to read below what HDG. Srila Prabhupada says about pure devotees born unto his disciples children’s children ;
“All of my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I–one–may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It’s not that I’ll give an order: “Here is the next leader.” Anyone who follows the previous leadership is a leader… All of my disciples are leaders, as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. Leader means one who is a first class disciple. Evam param praptam. One who follows is perfect.”
(SP Back to Godhead magazine BTG Vol. 13, No. 1-2, December 1977 )
From the above statement it is abundantly clear that all Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are leaders, but the key words are ; ” as much as they follow purely. ……. “.
And yet you, George, dare to contradict when you say this ;
” Your rationalization for the acceptance of the Rtviks being invested solely in the notion that there are no pure devotees among us, you either have to deny that Srila Prabhupada knew what he was talking about or deny that the pure devotees of Krsna have the authorization to initiate upon their own behalf to continue utilizinf this excuse as the majo reason that we should continue to put up with you.”.
What is wrong in acceptance of the Ritvik system of Srila Prabhupada when there are NO PURE DEVOTEES among the present leaders around to carry forward Srila Prabhupada’s legacy in the future ?
Is that NOT the VERY reason as to WHY HDG. Srila Prabhupada never authorized any of his disciples to become his ” SUCCESSOR ” ?
George, stop contradicting and misleading in your writing mentioned above as you always do.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
LW Writes“The point is that he fancies himself as a great ISKCON reformer, a representative of the great “Sampradaya,” perhaps a great devotee, etc. — yet he will not acknowledge the sincerity and wisdom of those who are also trying to serve and love Srila Prabhupada in a different way from his own. He lumps everyone in. “Give the dog a bad name and hang him.” No, we are not all one. There’s unity in diversity. So just who is the “non liberal fundamentalist”? Please think about it, accept what you wish, and discard the rest. As Prabhupada wrote, “Take the essence.”
We have a similar saying;” Use what works, throw out the rest.”
Let me say that I much prefer when you are writing as an individual and putting your own thoughts forward. It is only then that I feel confident that I am writing to someone who can be reasoned with.
Your question in regards to whether Rocana dasa is a non-liberal fundamentalist is not a new one to me. While his defense would be to tell you that he is simply refusing to compromise the philosophy, that is just a bunch of chafe, something that he throws up in hopes to distract and draw your attention away from something that I know he feels uncomfortable about and doesn’t really want to examine very closely.
As I mentioned in my article, many years ago I won from Rocana a concession, which in the light of it; renders all of his complaints about the Rtvik philosophy being asiddhantic to be without merit. I also mentioned that he was ungracious about it. He was ungracious because he was angry about what he was admitting to, which was that Christianity was a bona fide disciple succession. I had presented him with Srila Prabhupada’s own words as the evidence of this so naturally, even though he didn’t much like admitting to the fact that there existed, at all, any bona fide disciple succession in which a spiritual master could accept disciples after his death or physical disappearance he had to. My argument and the evidence pinned him down to a conclusion that was inescapable.People don’t like being pinned down that way and Rocana dasa wasn’t an exception.
I had prefixed my argument with the statement to Rocana that he could never defeat the Rtviks, “because they had this:” and then presented Srila Prabhupada’s words as evidence. Rocana accepted that Christianity was a bona fide disciple succession based upon Srila Prabhupada’s words, but it made him angry and instead of settling down to a reasonable discourse he replied rudely “so what?” He must have seen what he had gotten into because I received from him a list of sectarian minded objections, such as “The Christians eat meat…, etc., to which I patiently replied that the early Christians seemed to have been vegetarians and according to Jerome Eusibius, Jesus’s brothers were vegetarians, something that implied that unless mother Mary was a short order cook that Jesus was probably a vegetarian to.
Even if Jesus wasn’t a vegetarian and only James was, e wasn’t, the point was that Rocana had already accepted the point that Christianity, which like the Rtviks employs a system of initiation in which a no longer physically present spiritual master continued to accept disciples and was now simply trying to back paddle because somewhere deep down inside of himself he knew that his chance of ever being much of any use in convincing the movement that the Rtviks were asiddhantic would come undone if this was ever made public.
The reason?
Because Guru-Tattva is like the sun.
Whether or not one should incorporate Rtvik initiations into ISKCON is quite a different consideration than whether or not what Srila Prabhupada taught was founded upon sound guru-tatva. Of course it was and therefore Rocana and anyone else’s claim that Rtvik is asiddhantic is without merit.
After this I told Rocana that I considered him to be sectarian or an “asslike Vaisnava.” But I am harsh and not soft spoken and due to my own defects could not bring him around, nay, I may even have contributed to his degree of conviction because prabhu, not all of us think that Christianity as it has become offers an enlightened tradition. In fact, in the words of Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvatti it is like Putana, the slayer of the innocents. Rtvic can go that way too and become just another damned church of the world. Who among you will found an order sworn to stop this from happening?
George A Smith: After this I told Rocana that I considered him to be sectarian or an “asslike Vaisnava.”
Mahesh: It is actually Rocana’s Anti Ritvik type of propaganda THAT HAS created a situation that MANIPULATIVE SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS (so-called Diksa gurus of ISKCON) ABUSED young children. Watch Rocana das (Van Charnell) is in this Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FB1GF5FGZYw
We keep on reminding Rocana das that he is MISLEADING the innocent from Srila Prabhupada the ACTUAL Diksa Guru by HIS Anti Ritvik propaganda THIS means he has to face the result of his karma:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
George A Smith writes ; ” In fact, in the words of Bhaktissidhanta Sarasvatti it is like Putana, the slayer of the innocents. Rtvic can go that way too and become just another damned church of the world. Who among you will found an order sworn to stop this from happening?
George, it is already happening in the words of HDG Srila Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati Thakur Maharaja ; ” It is like Putana, the slayer of the innocents. ”
Ritvik can go that way too ONLY in the absence of HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
As long as Srila Prabhupada’s VANI reamins in tact on this planet earth, there is no need of an order sworn to stop this becoming just another damned church of the world as you said.
Hare Krishna.
By building a temple as ‘main focus’ you immediately alienate 98% of the population with microcosm of sectarian, parochial individuals in some sort of ”localised artificial power politics, structure”, just like all the other religions and their subsequent ”denominations”. This is why it is better to have Vedic museum to illustrate stories of Sri Krishna, Mahajanas and great Sadhus which are ”enchanting, beautiful and artistic”.
This should be like any other museum where people wear ‘western clothes’ (why ‘scare away’ 90% of your potential visitors?). Why?
This way you don’t ”create another group” and there is no need for people to be intimidated, as ”everyone is welcome as it is a public space”, extended to restaurant, mini farm-yard, gardens, book/shop etc, etc.
This is the ‘vehicle to distibute Srila Prabhupada’s books’, but ‘don’t proselytise’ just be be courteous to people, let Srila Prabhupada do the preaching! There should be a rule of not giving people a ”barrage of philosophical jargon” (they won’t understand what you are saying anyway).
This would create income for devotees. (active and passive) and a vehicle for book sales/prasadam distribution. By having small entrance fee for Diorama Museum you create Madhukari, without the logistical, almost imossible task of long distance travel to small towns etc. Better if they come to you!
Once set-up would only require minimal maintenance, requiring either full-time or part-time involvement.
This is what I would term as ‘Public Space’ and could be ideally surrounded by ‘Private Space’ which would be freehold property for householders to live peacefully and practice “simple living”. Communal living only creates a nightmare situation where your life is ‘controlled by others’, often with dubious motives and personal agendas.
The only things that are of any value in the age of Kali is Guru Tattva (coming directly from Acharya) and Maha Mantra. Ditch all this superficial, sannyasi, bogus guru and ‘fancy dress’ bullshit! What has it done for the GBC but create a pile of hypocrites and phonies. There is the Acharya (giving Maha Mantra and Tattva) and there is ‘US’ and thats it!, It is direct and unencumbered by bogus pretenders. Srila Prabhupada is the preacher we just need a vehicle to distribute his books, thats all all the rest comes automatically.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sudarsana
Holy cow, George. You should write a book!
Well, clearly I’m not as intelligent as you because this is getting too complicated for me, but I’ll try to briefly reply to your main points.
You’re quite right, George, I have no right to speak on behalf of anyone but myself. But please remember that this website is called “Prabhupadanugas.eu.” It’s for followers of Srila Prabhupada. Those who are trying to follow Prabhupada share similar views on certain topics, especially with regards to Srila Prabhupada’s exalted position. Besides, I’ve been reading articles and comments on this site for a number of years, so it’s become apparent how devotees here think and feel about His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and his instructions. But if I’ve said anything inappropriate or offensive to the devotees here, I sincerely apologize.
OK, you don’t like it when I use the “royal we,” as you say. Then I’ll try my best to keep you happy, but I’m not so fond of saying “I” all the time either, as in “I” think this, or “my” opinion is such and such, etc. Perhaps you might recall the old George Harrison song, “I Me Mine”:
“All through the day
I me mine, I me mine, I me mine
All through the night
I me mine, I me mine, I me mine…”
Anyway, I admit that I’m no great writer – fair enough – so I’ll try harder. Aside from my poor writing style, which you obviously don’t like, my main point was somehow missed. I asked, do you agree with Rocan that Prabhupada is “post-mortem,” “post-humous,” “post-samadhi” or dead and gone, as Rocan repeats like a mantra so many times?
“Those devotees who like to adamantly state that Srila Prabhupada is ‘still alive’, and ISKCON should just go along as if that were the assumption, are fools.”
-Rocan das
I’m really not sure why you now feel so compelled to defend Rocan against my comments because they were pretty mild compared to your own statements about Rocan. I read through a couple of your articles and here are a few examples of what you yourself said about him:
– “Rocana dasa picturing Srila Prabhupada dead” (title of article)
– “asslike Vaisnava”
– “ungracious”
– he “replied rudely”
– the “hoax Rocana dasa was trying to perpetuate”
– “Rocana dasa was misrepresenting the truth”
– “disingenuous”
– “I’d certainly be willing to entertain the consideration” (that Rocan is) “demoniac”
– “complete b.s.”
– “sneakily”
– “tricks Rocana dasa was, to my way of thinking, attempting to employ”
– “dishonest”
– “fallacious reasoning”
– “muddying the waters so as to confuse his audience”
– “use logical fallacy in a deliberate attempt to convince you of something untruthful”
– “just another absurd argument from Rocana”
– “a fox in the henhouse”
– “bull crap”
– “Rocana isn’t just a man with a keyboard, hes a man with an agenda”
– “foolish”
– “Rocana dasa, in his contempt for others”
– “Rocana dasa was gambling and to my mind he was also attempting to cheat”
– “it appeared that Rocana dasa had only sunk even deeper, that tormented by whatever demons drive him, that he has gone from only picturing himself a the great destroyer of the Rtviks, but into picturing Srila Prabhupada dead”
– “Rocana dasa has never had a very high opinion of the devotees ability to think for themselves, if at all”
– “Rocana dasa was indeed attempting to muddy the waters by substituting non-essential for essentials in order to try to get us to accept his conclusion that we could not accept Srila Prabhupada as our Srila Prabhupada as a spiritual master, but had to accept someone else, such as Rocana dasa himself perhaps”
– “I see snake eyes”… etc.
Aside from the above, you’ve also seen fit to publicly comment on Rocan’s personal life:
“Rocana and his women, well, he certainly never lacked for them, but can he even stand today or feed himself without them these days? He certainly didn’t have to back then when he was the head of an all women traveling sankirtan party in Seattle.
“There was a time that I remember in which Rocana (or they),would dress up in silken cloth of gold so as to look so pretty for them and then they would dance around him in the temple room, six or seven of them, all young ladies from his traveling sankirtan party, pretending that he was Krsna or something, I do not know as I and the two other young bhramachari’s, Krsna Chandra and Stubyadeva, who happened upon this scene, back pedaled out of there so quickly. We were in such shock by the sight of it that we never brought up the subject or spoke about it to one another.
“Susan I do not know her, except for a brief unpleasant enterchange in which she insulted my intelligence, but most of the others, the main ones, Rocanas ‘shaktis’ I knew.
“Padjavali, the other woman, who Rocana blames today for many of his own ‘mistakes’ Funny thing, for if he’d been enough of a man then back to be in control of himself then today he’d have no one to try to shuffle off all the blame. ‘I was just following orders’ is not exactly a line that commands respect.”
“Rocana, dear Rocana, didn’t seem to like any other young men being around who might distract the young ladies from their fixation upon him. Had I liked him I might have told him that by reducing the amount of ugly expressions that he allowed his face to make when speaking disparagingly about others that he might have increased his attractiveness, but I doubt that that would have done any good as just as today, a lot of what he says or writes seems to be to reflect the same profound lack of self confidance that he seemed to be suffering from in the good old days. Perhaps that’s always a consequence of puffing yourself up so big that you cannot possibly stretch yourself all the way around it and of being afraid that others will discover what you already know, which is that it’s all a bluff.”
Actually, now that you’ve mentioned it, if you do a little research on the subject (Seattle sankirtan party), you’ll find that not everyone was “in heaven” like you at the time, nor do they remember it as “indescribably sweet.” How about the “Sankirtan Party from Hell,” as some of the women back then have declared. I won’t go into further details on this topic, but will quote just one more of the women’s comments (directly addressed to Rocan):
“I don’t care if this happened many years ago, and ‘you have come to terms’ with this. In my book, as a Vaisnavi, you have a life time of penance to make up for this egregious violation of your godsisters.”
Rocan has made a name for himself for “exposing” the faults, frailties and falldowns of his godbrothers online. Perhaps someday he might wish to take a long hard look in the mirror. (Should we hold our breath?) His website is known as the “Sampradaya Sun” and quotes our illustrious spiritual grandfather, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, on the front page. Maybe he should also post the following words from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta:
“Look within. Amend yourself, rather than pry into the frailties of others.”
Or:
“When faults in others misguide and delude you – have patience, introspect, find faults in yourself.”
You write: “Your rationalization for the acceptance of the Rtviks being invested solely in the notion that there are no pure devotees among us, you either have to deny that Srila Prabhupada knew what he was talking about or deny that the pure devotees of Krsna have the authorization to initiate upon their own behalf to continue utilizinf this excuse as the majo reason that we should continue to put up with you.”
You further state that I have “the same glaring defect and although Tamal Krsna lied to Srila Prabhupada by claiming to have examined all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples and you have not made such a claim outright, you certainly haven’t even gone to the trouble of finding, let alone examining all that are left, nor do you even care to. So since you haven’t examined all of them it means that your just guessing, just betting on your guess and that your basing the justification for the existence of Rtvik upon something that your going to have a lot of trouble with in the future, for it carries with it the idea that Krsna consciousness does not work, because if it did and does then according to both Lord Krsna and Srila Prabhupada…”
I’m glad that you can read my mind! However, I don’t need to travel the earth to see if there is another pure devotee on the planet. We are discussing what Srila Prabhupada wanted to happen in ISKCON after he departed. Whether or not there are other pure devotees present is not the issue at all. What did Srila Prabhupada want? It’s not what “I” want, or what “you” want,” or what “Rocan” wants, or what the “GBC” wants, or what “Tom, Dick or Harry” wants. It’s very simple, George. It’s what Prabhupada wants. How do we know what Prabhupada wants? Do we listen to Rocan’s interpretation, or Ravindra Swarupa’s interpretation, or “the ritvik’s” interpretation, or George A. Smith’s interpretation, or my interpretation? Srila Prabhupada himself answers that question perfectly (as always):
“If you want to know me, then you must know about me from me. You can not speculate about me.”
(Srila Prabhupada conversation with reporter, June 4, 1976, Los Angeles)
“So that means, anyway, if you want to know about me, then you must know from me. That is authentic.
That is authentic.”
(Srila Prabhupada Bhagavad-gita Lecture, New York, May 27, 1966)
Therefore it behooves us all well – whoops, sorry, I mean it behooves “me” well – to hear directly from Srila Prabhupada himself about what he wanted (and still wants) in the matter of initiations in ISKCON:
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiation in the future, particularly at the time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.”
Tamal Krsna: “Is that called rtvik-acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik, yes.”
(Srila Prabhupada conversation, May 28, 1977)
Two words, George. Two simple words from Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik, yes.”
Do we really need hundreds of essays and thousands (perhaps tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands) of words written trying to explain (or explain away) this simple order from His Divine Grace while he lay on his bed in Vrindavan after completing a sublime and unparalleled life of total dedication and surrender to fulfilling the order of his beloved spiritual master? Does Srila Prabhupada not deserve the right – has he not earned the right – by dint of his selfless sacrifice for us all to decide for himself what he wants for the movement which he struggled so hard to single-handedly establish in this ungrateful world against all odds?
You keep saying “your movement” to me. Sorry, George, but you got it wrong. It’s not my movement. There is only one true movement, and that’s Srila Prabhupada’s movement. He called it ISKCON. Just as Prabhupada will never die, so the true ISKCON will never die as well. Prabhupada declared that there would be an ISKCON in the spiritual sky. So I humbly aspire to one day (or one lifetime) be a member of that movement – the orginal ISKCON with Srila Prabhupada at the helm – the bona fide guru in disciplic succession from Krsna Himself, the Founder-Acarya, the diksa guru, the siksa guru, the guru’s guru – the “master at whose feet ALL other masters sit.” That’s the movement I want to join and serve.
It seems that the word “ritvik” has now become a dirty word. Fine, then forget that word. Srila Prabhupada employed the method long before the term was used officially, as you have correctly noted. So why not call it “Prabhupada’s system of initiation” then? It’s not the name that’s so important. It’s the process. Qualified devotees initiate “on behalf” of Srila Prabhupada (like even Rocan did back in the day). Just as everything in ISKCON rightfully belongs to Prabhupada – the books, temples, etc. – then why not the devotees? Who else but a pure devotee can have “disciples” anyway?
No, you haven’t ruined my “fun,” George. I’m nothing, nothing at all. “When you ain’t got nothin’, you ain’t got nothin’ to lose.” But those who don’t get Srila Prabhupada after transmigrating for hundreds of million of years in the cycle of birth and death are most unfortunate and they have lost. So I do, in fact, understand it well when you say that Srila Prabhupada restored your soul. In truth, I want to see everyone’s soul restored, and in my humble opinion, that can only be done by Prabhupada’s mercy. Therefore to be an instrument in his divine hands, acting on his behalf, would be the greatest fortune I could ever imagine possible. Nothing more and nothing less. So to be a “ritvik” should, I think, be the greatest honor. Too bad that’s not enough for some people. They want the whole enchilada:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/iskcondesiretree/3677646099/
Is this what you want too? Because that’s what you’re defending, George. Good luck with that!
LW: So to be a “ritvik” should, I think, be the greatest honor. Too bad that’s not enough for some people. They want the whole enchilada:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/iskcondesiretree/3677646099/
Is this what you want too? Because that’s what you’re defending, George. Good luck with that!
Mahesh: BRILLIANT analysis LW Prabhu. Srila Prabhupada terms these Anti Ritviks as: DEMONIAC, PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS, OPPORTUNIST:
Bg 16.4 P The Divine And Demoniac Natures
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The DEMONIAC WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF RELIGION AND ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES. THEY ARE ALWAYS ARROGANT or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. THEY DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPED BY OTHERS, AND DEMAND RESPECTABILITY, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT COMMAND RESPECT. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. THEY DO EVERYTHING WHIMSICALLY, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRE, AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE ANY AUTHORITY.
Iso 12
The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service–which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead–one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. THEY IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–“ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA”–AND KRSNA’S STATEMENT IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (4.2) EVAM PARAMPARA-PRAPTAM, “THIS SUPREME SCIENCE OF GOD IS RECEIVED THROUGH THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
760628bj.nv Conversations
Pusta Krsna: Some of them will say some things that Krsna says, but they’ll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons?
Prabhupada: He’s most dangerous. HE’S MOST DANGEROUS. HE IS OPPORTUNIST.
LW
You evidently are willing to spend much more time in preparaing your replies to me than I am willing to dedicate to you. You evidently see yourself as being a very clever fellow. By all means, please continue to feel free to posture yourself as whatever you please. You will have to forgive me though as I do not have the time to play with you. One of your delusions, the idea that two words, taken out of context (bo truth exists outide of its context) and placed into another that you have specially prepared for it, I will make some comment concerning.
Your idea that Srila Pravhupada “wanted” the Krsna consciousness movement to have to depend upon him to perform initiations for the next ten thousand years, due either to the lack of there being any ldevotees being qualified or simply to to some personal preference, is ludicrous, as is your unstated assumption that yopu are a qualified enough person to take initiation from a picture or a book.
“Rtvik, yes.” is something that taken out of context you use to support your addle-pated concept, ignoring the fact that Srila Prabhupada knew exactly what they, the soon to be Zonals were getting at and that all statements made by conditioned souls are negotiation strategies.
Thw title of the article of mine reproduced below from Rocanas website The Sampradaya Sun was changed by Rocana from the title that I gave it to the one below. The Titile that I had given it had been “Rtvik, The Transcendental Cheat”
The Word They Really Wanted
BY: GEORGE A. SMITH
Jul 12, 2011 — CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) —
dyutam chalayatam asmi
“I am also the gambling of the cheats…”
Bhagavad-gita 10.36
No truth exists outside of its context, stands alone and outside of any relationship, unsupported by its foundation, or is causeless, not in the material world at least, and as we all know, both here and everywhere Lord Krsna is the Cause of all Causes.
We often forget how in the beginning, there were only 11 rtviks, none of whom wished or desired to be, anyone of them. They wanted something else, they wanted something more, what was behind the word, the next word after that.
“Rtvik acarya.”
In fact, they cared so little about the words in front of the word they really wanted, that word “acarya”, that they did not even bother to learn how to spell it. Instead they spelled it “rittik”, and as soon as they could they simply dropped it, threw it in the garbage for someone, some twenty or so years after, to dig up, dust off and spell correctly (not noticing what they did? Tsk. Tsk.) And then they revealed themselves and what they wanted to the world, exactly as they were. It did not even take 24 hours.
“Hare Krsna, Bhakta George…..
The story is told by a departed Vaisnava named Sudama. He was at one point attempting to follow sannyasa dharma, but gave it up….I don’t know if that was prior to Srila Prabhupada’s departure or not. He said that the day before Srila Prabhupada left this world, he was preparing to leave Vrndavana and return to the west. He was approached by a godbrother, who inquired, (words to the effect) “what? why are you leaving? Tomorrow we are going to divide up the world. Aren’t you going to stick around and get your share of the pie?” To which Sudama replied, “I would rather leave this organization, go back to the material world, and indulge in my nonsense, than commit the sins which you are about to commit”. (“you” was plural, meaning the godbrothers who were interested in being guru) That’s all I can recall.”
(Mahalaxsmi dd)
“Of course the real reason Srila Prabhupada didn’t want those leaders to touch his body was because they had poisoned him, that is why Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Narayana Maharaja to give him Samadhi. I heard this from Srila Narayana Maharaja himself.”
(BV Damodara Maharaja, 13 April 2010)
Even if I stood on tip toe with my arms overstretched till the earth covered over me and the ants devoured my flesh leaving nothing left of me but a wind whistling through my bones…even by the dint of such great austerities I would never understand this. He loved you so much. How could you murder him?
Because he did not give you the one thing he could not give, the one thing that you did not even really want (which is why he could not give) – spiritual qualification? You did not want to serve Krsna, you wanted to kill Krsna and to be Him, but Krsna you could not kill so you looked around and found him, the only one who stood in the way of your ambition. So weak, so frail. How you must have hated him. And he, as he looked into your heart and understood your mind, even then did he not instruct you?
“For me, either live or die, I don’t mind. But if you are trying for my life, try it very seriously. That is my formula. No negligence.”
(Room Conversation, October 3, 1977, Vrndavana, India
But you were negligent. Srila Prabhupada lives and it is you, the one they say who murdered him, it is you who are dead, and all the rest will soon enough follow in Krsna’s good time.
But as Mark Anthony says in Shakespeare’s play, Julius Caesar: “The evil that men do lives after them.” So that is what we have now, a movement gone to Hell in a hand basket and the only ones trumpeting that Srila Prabhupada lives are at odds with one another over what to the uninitiated, the average Joe on the street appears to be minor doctrinal differences… whether Srila Prabhupada’s mercy can or cannot reach down so low as to pick a man up and lift him, whether it meaes with your approval or no, whether it agrees with your interpretation of absolute law.
In Rocana dasa’s time, the Rtvik phenomenon is a product of the Zonal Acarya scam, it grew out of it, was a reaction to it. I agree with that pretty much completely, except as far as who it was that was reacting to the Zonals that gave rise to it. Rocana seems to feel that the ones doing the reacting were the regular Joes like Yasodanandana, etc., but I don’t think so. Someone was indeed reacting to the Zonals, but it wasn’t those Johnny come latelys who took over twenty years to get the idea for Rtvik into their heads that had been already waiting for them. It was Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and there was nothing causeless or unintentional about it, it was completely deliberate.
sanjaya uvaca
naham veda vyavasitam
pitror vah kula-nandana
gandharya va maha-baho
musito ‘smi mahatmabhih
“Sanjaya said: My dear descendant of the Kuru dynasty, I have no information of the determination of your two uncles and Gandhari. O King, I have been cheated by those great souls.
PURPORT
That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause. It is said that Lord Krsna also advised Yudhisthira to tell a lie before Dronacarya, and it was also for a great cause. The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion of one who is bona fide, and the highest perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by one’s occupational duty. That is the verdict of Gita and Bhagavatam.* Dhrtarastra and Vidura, followed by Gandhari, did not disclose their determination to Sanjaya, although he was constantly with Dhrtarastra as his personal assistant. Sanjaya never thought that Dhrtarastra could perform any act without consulting him. But Dhrtarastra’s going away from home was so confidential that it could not be disclosed even to Sanjaya. Sanatana Gosvami also cheated the keeper of the prison house while going away to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and similarly Raghunatha dasa Gosvami also cheated his priest and left home for good to satisfy the Lord. To satisfy the Lord, anything is good, for it is in relation with the Absolute Truth. We also had the same opportunity to cheat the family members and leave home to engage in the service of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Such cheating was necessary for a great cause, and there is no loss for any party in such transcendental fraud.”
Bhaktivedanta Book Trust
So by replying “Rtvik, yes” Srila Prabhupada cheated those who were trying to manipulate him into proclaiming them to be the next acaryas of the Krsna consciousness movement. Though, at thee time, they did not know it, the very fact that he had aknowledged them as Rtviks would, at time went by and understandinf developed, dethrone them from their acray position. In other words the word Rtvik would not tern out to be something that could be so easily dispensed with as they had dispensed with it. So this is one way that Srtila Prabhupada and Sri Krsna cheated them. As a transcendental cheat however, no one would be cheated, not those who took shelter of it in later years as a bona fide initiatory sustem nor even they, the soon to be Zonals, had they chosen intead from the start to accept such posts rather than promote themselves up to the ranks of acaryas. Logic dictates that had they chosen to do so that they would have advanced rather than degraded themselves.
Rtvik is also an adjustment to time, place and capacity, to the Western Way, but it is not a place where East and West can never meet as some will say. The emmisaries of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu do not look to see how many that they can leave out of Krsnas mercy.
Get real LM, drop that phopey baloney false humility b.s. No one aspires to be be nothing unless their so wounded or scarred their way past carring even where their ashes are scattered. So unless your one of those, drop it. I don’t believe it and you don’t believe it so why the play acting?
The actor, the act and the object are only devices. The brain does not experience the actor-the act-the object. It experiences the whole scene. (This includes filling in what led up to the scene and what will happen afterwards.) Then a part of the brain uses language to communicate the scene to itself and to others. The communication of the scene is responded to as if it were the experience of the scene. The method of communication is not the scene however. The key to myth is that by its use you can make slaves by it, slaves of yourselves and slaves of others. My own life stories have a particular meaning to me, but I am not a slave to them, nor do I seek, as some others of you do, to build a system of them, a system by which you mean to make the world bow down to kiss your feet.
With language we establish logic and consistency. This does not mean however, that consistency and logic exist in the scene in the way that language has presented it. I do not think that our dear, sweet Rocana has managed to understand this later point and what I think about the Rtviks is that most of the ones that are up here writing me with their crap simply do not care. Why should they? System building is fun, isn’t it? Whether it is true or not simply becomes irrelevant to those who have convinced themselves already that it is true, but have they tested the hypothesis. Since they have already made themselves or been made the subjects of their own experiment and since both Rtvik and anti-Rtvik are in accord that Krsna consciousness is scientific, please produce your graphs and charts, please produce your evidence that even a single one of you are something other than a cloud without water – please produce the proof of your claim – the lightning flash – the opening of the lotus, something, anything that would lend credence to your claim that by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada that you are initiated. Do you see him? Have you heard him since his physical dissapearence?
I have.
I have heard Srila Prabhupada speak to me since his physical disappearance and I have seen him. Even a dog however can hear his masters voice calling to him from beyond the grave. Are you not men? From you should we not expect better?
In an earlier post I mentioned that life was like heaven for me when I was living in the temple of Lord Jaganatha on Capitol Hill in Seattle along with Rocana dasa, his wife and about a dozen or so young bhramacharininis. Evidently this aroused some jealousy and resentment which caused them to interpret me in such a way as to justify their anger and resentment. Now L.M. comes on to make something else of it. It seems that no one chooses also to recall that I left the movement and since Srila Prabhupadas disappearance have only ever referred one single person to it out of fear that they might be abused, exploited or in any otherwise way screwed up by it and that even while I lived in the temple that the only one single time that I saw anything that suggested mistreatment or abuse of any other that I stopped it.
Krsna had arranged for me a situation that was conducive to my reclamation, not to the spiritual tradition that I was born of but to an even greater mercy, one that could still accept me and restore me to something which once lived and breathed, to something that could feel some other emotion other than anger, that took birth, life after life for no other purpose than revenge. Rocana never gave be an order or told me what to do because he was either intelligent enough to realize that he didn’t have to, for only someone who is already an almost perfect bhramachari could live in such a situation and be intelligent enough to never allow attachment to develop between himself and even the though, let alone the sight, smell, sound and even sometime touvh of the many young women around him. But I was there for something else and that something else did not then include taking a wife, so I stayed perfectly detached from the women and even from the children who lived next door. I did not know the names of but one or two of them. I did my service and spent all day singing and chanting and going out to spread the glories of the Holy name, that was my heaven.
Decades after I had left the movement, in the late 90]s I came upon Rocana dasas first incarnation of his web site and sent an e-mail to him. That was my first contact with any of the devotees from Seattle since I had left the movement in 77. I enquired from Raocana how everyone was and to my question he replied with not even the time of day. Only that he could not be bothered with sentiment. This offended my sensibilities and I lit into him causing him to despair and eventually lament publicly that he believed that I had been directly empowered by Maya herself to bring him misery. When I read that I thought something bad at him and then took a breather because I couldn’t help but noting the similarity between Rocanas lament and my real life situation.
A decade before I had stood in the circle of those who had once been my people and the priestess had lifted her arms to the great glowing orb in the heavens and the great goddess had come down to her. When in turn she was led around to me what I asked for is exactly what Rocana had said that I had been given and what She told me she would give, “As much power as you can ever use.”
When we speak of a society, we speak of a set of assertions which are publicly shared, the type of assertions that I had listened to Rocana Making to all of the young women in his sankirtan party in order to freighten them into not leaving. Assertions get people moving thinking their in danger or keep them still thinking they are safe. A society is thus, in a way, just a group of clichés based upon selected fictions or fairie tales. In simple language a society is a construction,. It does not have the same quality of ‘existence” as the individuals which make it up. Yet we respond to words with more intensity and feeling than we do to the sight of someones elses misery or blood.
Being angry with Rocana dasa and considering him to be a complete ass was not enough cause for me trample him into the dust even though he had tried to feed me some of his B.S. and then one of the suru-kulis made contact with me.
To understand what we call a society we simply have to look at its fictions. But befoire we study fictions in detail the first fiction we are told is that a particular set of fictions are not fictions.
As Americans, the fictions of most of the people born here are to them truths. Have you ever wondered why victims are sometimes blamed evem more thab the perpetrators? It is because the victims are the residue – proof of the imperfections of a societies fictions. Fictions are solutions that don’t work except as fictions. Most any set of fictions will do as long as it is accepted as being non-fiction. Victims are fiction-failure. Thus victims must be paid back for exposing the failure of the fiction.
As a former service man myself I know that there are places that you can go to that you can never really come back from, wounds so scarring and soul shattering that nothing upon this side of the grave save for liberation, can free you from the pain of them. I wasn’t able to give her liberation, she didn’t expect it, she asked me for just one thing, to make them pay.
There are different degrees and types of intelligences and different usages that one can put ones intelligence to. One can use it for example to write artciles that will assure that other articles aren’t accepted as gospel and by doing so increasing the chance that some underdog will survive an attempt by others to kick it to death or one can use it in ones own self defence, to attempt to smooth over personal defects so that they are not so glaring in the face of those whom you wish to impress and what better way of defending than a strong offense, one that can take considerable, time, effort and research to prepare and compose, suggesting that much is at stake for the one going to such effort to prepare it.
Most of the stuff that I write to you LM or to anyone else is off the cuff. I do not have either the time or the inclination to go into that much trouble over some one elses dementia, although I am flattered that you choose to spend so much time going over so many of my articles to find the duff that I’ve written about Rocana just in order to suggest to others what I had already suggested about your own presentation, which is that it is hypocritical. Just because I sometimes champion Rocana dasa or write something that might suggest that we offer him some respect does not mean that I have to look the other way at his crap or keep my mouth shut when he appears standing naked in front of everyone imagining that he is clothed in glorious rainmant.
As far as the I, me, me, mine bull crap, suggesting that you are humbler by using the royal we then simply speaking for yourself and trying to turn the tables round on me to suggest that my use of the word “I” is testament of my own egoism is a gas. What shall we call it, the humility war? Where one of us shows how humble he is by knocking out the other and standing over him while the crowd cheers? My God, that’s hilarious, but really my dear boy, the only thing that makes me feel humble is the realization that although I am so powerful that my steps shake the earth wherever I walk such as befits a demon of such great magnitude as myself, that I am ultimately powerless to save a dying woman who clings to me for some small comfort in a world that has hardly ever shown her any, where even her own parents blamed her for her misery.
LM writes:(
Srila Prabhupada Bhagavad-gita Lecture, New York, May 27, 1966)
Therefore it behooves us all well — whoops, sorry, I mean it behooves “me” well — to hear directly from Srila Prabhupada himself about what he wanted (and still wants) in the matter of initiations in ISKCON:
Not only do you feel free to speak for others just as blinded and as conditioned as you are perhaps yourself, but you also now feel free to speak for Krsna’s pure devotee Srila Prabhupada. I have no doubt that soon you will be speaking for even Krsna Himself. I however cannot help wondering what will happen to all of those who accept you as their representative and also at you yourself and at any man who would hazard any souls other than his own.
Like you or any number of others who like to inject themselves into a scene that they were not a party to so that they can steel away the limelight and direct it to themselves, telling us what others, this one or that one who now shares the scene with them, thinks or feels, I can do this, but it isn’t something new, devotees have been doing it since at least the time of Satsvarupa, who initially achieved quite a bit of honor and distinction for themselves by so doing this, although in later years quite a few have commented that there seems to be some heavy karmic consequences attached to portraying ones spiritual master in such a presumptuous and offensive fashion, as if they knew and understood him completely, his wants, his needs, his everything, as if he were a normal man and they themselves somehow weren’t, it’s speculative and only a fool or a rascal would claim that it wasn’t. Who me. No, I’m simply deranged. You have hundreds even thousands of Rtviks claiming that you can accept Srila Prabhupada as ones initiating guru after his physical disappearance but I’m the only one I know whose claiming to have seen him and go ahead, give me a lie detector test – and I’m not even a Rtvik, how crazy is that?
After reading LMs latest post I see that insanity is a relative term, just like intelligence and that some of us are much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, more insane than others. Take the crazy proposition that LM is offering.
What is that thing that Srila Prabhupada supposedly wanted then and continues to want now? Logic dictates that it could only be the exact same thing that kept Srila Prabhupada from promoting any of his disciples to the position of being the next acarya after his physical disappearance in the first place, their lack of spiritual qualification, the fact that none of them were actually so qualified as to be promoted to the position of acarya. If we are to follow LM, that was what Srila Prabhupada wanted and continues to want instead of something that he was instead simply reacting to in the best way that was available then.
The thought that Srila Prabhupada did not actually want anyone to be qualified enough for him to promote them to the position of being the next acarya of the Krsna Consciousness movement and that he continues not to want thisto this day is really, really, really offensive in what it suggests about our spiriritual master, plus it fails to offer anything reasonable as explanation at all as to why he would want this, because LM has nothing reasonable to explain and is running off on the strength of his emotions and egoism perhaps as seems to have become fashionable and more than acceptable these days. Keep it up LM, you’ll make ISKCON guru in no time..
Hare Krsna, all glories to Srila Prabhupada
George A Smith : No, I’m simply deranged. You have hundreds even thousands of Rtviks claiming that you can accept Srila Prabhupada as ones initiating guru after his physical disappearance but I’m the only one I know whose claiming to have seen him
Mahesh: So—— you are simply deranged. Hmmm very Interesting.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
another spiritual master after you?
750522mw.mel
Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?
Prabhupāda: THEN THAT SPIRITUAL MASTER IS KṚṢṆA HIMSELF. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.
George A Smith says ;
” What is that thing that Srila Prabhupada supposedly wanted then and continues to want now? Logic dictates that it could only be the exact same thing that kept Srila Prabhupada from promoting any of his disciples to the position of being the next acarya after his physical disappearance in the first place, their lack of spiritual qualification, the fact that none of them were actually so qualified as to be promoted to the position of acarya. ….. ”
When asked who would succeed him as the leader of the Krsna consciousness movement,
Srila Prabhupada replied:
“All of my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I – one – may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It’s not that I’ll give an order: ‘Here is the next leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership is a leader. I don’t make any distinction between Indian and European. All my disciples are leaders…as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, then you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. ‘Leader’ means one who is a first-class disciple. Evam parampara-praptam. One who is perfectly following. Our instruction is, guru-mukha-padma-vakya. Do you know this? Ara na kariha mane asa [‘My only desire is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from the lotus mouth of my spiritual master’]. To become a leader is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of the bona fide guru.'”
“In the paramparā system, the instructions taken from the bona fide spiritual master must also be based on revealed Vedic scriptures. One who is in the line of disciplic succession cannot manufacture his own way of behavior. There are many so-called followers of the Vaiṣṇava cult in the line of Caitanya Mahāprabhu who do not scrupulously follow the conclusions of the śāstras, and therefore they are considered to be apa-sampradāya, which means “outside of the sampradāya.” (Cc. Adi 7.48.P.)
“The actual center is śāstra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the śāstra, he is not a saintly person. Śāstra is the center for all. ” (Cc.Madhya 20.352.P.)
George A Smith continue his comments which are subject to four defects saying ;
” What is that thing that Srila Prabhupada supposedly wanted then and continues to want now? Logic dictates that it could only be the exact same thing that kept Srila Prabhupada from promoting any of his disciples to the position of being the next acarya after his physical disappearance in the first place, their lack of spiritual qualification, the fact that none of them were actually so qualified as to be promoted to the position of acarya. If we are to follow LM, that was what Srila Prabhupada wanted and continues to want instead of something that he was instead simply reacting to in the best way that was available then.
The thought that Srila Prabhupada did not actually want anyone to be qualified enough for him to promote them to the position of being the next acarya of the Krsna Consciousness movement and that he continues not to want thisto this day is really, really, really offensive in what it suggests about our spiriritual master, plus it fails to offer anything reasonable as explanation at all as to why he would want this, because LM has nothing reasonable to explain and is running off on the strength of his emotions and egoism perhaps as seems to have become fashionable and more than acceptable these days. Keep it up LM, you’ll make ISKCON guru in no time.. ”
So what is that LOGIC you are talking about, George ?
George A Smith says…..”After reading LW’s latest post I see that insanity is a relative term, just like intelligence and that some of us are much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much more insane than others.”
Given that George (at the beginning of his statement ) is ‘unsuccessfully’ trying to criticize LW for speaking as “WE” and not “I” George is admitting that he himself is not just crazy but much more crazy (to the power of 9) than others. A fact which to “me” seems glaringly obvious!
George again reinforces the obvious by further stating …..” Who me. No, I am simply deranged. You have hundreds even thousands of rtviks claiming that you can accept Srila Prabhupada as ones initiated guru after his physical dissappearance, but I’m the only one I know who’s claiming to have seen him and go ahead, give me a lie-detector test, and I’m not even a rtvik, how crazy is that?”
Well George there is no need to try any harder to convince “me” I knew you were crazy way back when you made your first comment which makes this sort of dialogue pointless (but for the benifit of others) but even that, I am afraid has run it’s course, making any further rambling gibberish comments of yours an excercise in futility.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Nityananda Prabhu ki jai!!
I feel blessed just as a dog in the street must surely feel when a stranger stops to feed him, offer a gentle pat and soothing words.
George A Smith your transcendental words bring tears to my eyes and fill my heart with gratitude.
This is the age of Kali. The whole world revolves around crazies worshipping and glorifying other crazies. And this is also the modus operandi of FISKCON and Gaudiya Math, no surprises there!
To transcend this ‘madhouse’ one must accept only Uttama Adhikari, Acharya as diksha guru, not phonies, hypocrites, monkeys, flunky’s and ”self proclaimed” bogus gurus. These personalities only ‘muddy the waters’ and always deviate from the instruction of the Acharya that is why Srila Prabhupada NEVER appointed anyone as successor. This is clearly documented. Srila Prabhupada clearly only appointed ritvik representatives to act ‘on his behalf’, so why does FISKCON and Gaudiya Math have a ‘problem’ with the term ritvik? Did Srila Prabhupada have a ‘problem’ with the term? Absolutely NOT. This is what he wanted.
So why do halfwit bogus ”gurus” and peabrain ”sannyasis” in Gaudiya Math and FISKCON have a ‘problem’ with the term ritvik (using it like it’s some sort of fatal disease)? Do they know better than Srila Prabhupada? Do they know MORE than Uttama Adhikari Acharya? Why are these rascals deviating, embracing Mayavadi bogus philosophy, and degenerate hippy kirtana bands, bogus Vrindaban babajis and meat eating hindus? Is all this bullshit what Srila Prabhupada wanted? Why are these BOGUS ‘rubber stamp’ phony ”gurus” STEALING AND USURPING ALL OF SRILA PRABHUPADA’S FUTURE DISCIPLES? Where is it written that this is what he wanted?
Only a crazy person would think that accepting a boy buggerer, murderer, whoremonger, drug addict, retard, theif, liar, fool, child abuser, Mayavadi sympathizer and ‘bogus babaji sicophant’ AS “THE PREFERED OPTION” AS ONES GURU instead of what Srila Prabhupada himself instructed that ALL DEVOTEES OF ISKCON (AND IN THE FUTURE FOR THE NEXT 10,000 YEARS) ARE ETERNALLY DISCIPLES OF UTTAMA ADHIKARI, JAGAT GURU, DIKSHA GURU AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA HIMSELF!
Otherwise it is crazy’s worshipping crazy’s simple as that!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Dear George,
Please accept my humble obeisance’s.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I don’t know you personally but have read some of your writings in the past and always considered you thoughtful and quite articulate. I wanted to put a couple of things to you. In doing so I don’t mean any disrespect, am not trying to put you down, and no doubt about it, I have many shortcomings. But I think this issue is very important and although I hear conclusive statements from both sides of the argument I believe Srila Prabhupada would like us to continue to talk this ‘threadbare’ and from as many angles as possible.
So your writing got me wondering how you might categorize those devotees, (and I believe there were many) who were not initiated by Prabhupada ‘in person’ but rather on his behalf through a Ritvik priest, (and some who perhaps never actually met Prabhupada at all)? Is it because Srila Prabhupada was on the other side of the planet at the time of their initiation that they be considered bonafide disciples, but because Srila Prabhupada is now ‘further away’ that initiation process no longer has potency? This raises the question of how many kilometers the pure devotee must travel before he loses his effectiveness to reach other jiva souls? (Is there any Scriptural evidence of this?)
Are we to believe that that soul we knew as His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is now imprisoned in the spiritual world, bound by time and space, and unable to reach the hundreds, maybe thousands, of jiva souls sincerely calling out for his guidance, shelter and love?
Most importantly; what if today someone wanted to take shelter of HDG as his guru – having received instruction and guidance from him through his books and lectures – and what if His Divine Grace was willing to accept them as his disciple? Do you, or Rocana Prabhu, (or the GBC for that matter) get to overrule that desire and instead instruct Srila Prabhupada that, according to your understanding of Scripture, he does not have the freewill to do so?
Kind regards, Surya Narayana das, (Christchurch, New Zealand) mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Hare Krsna, George.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to reply in length, even though you state: “I do not have the time to play with you,” and “I do not have either the time or the inclination to go into that much trouble over some one elses dementia.”
I’m not sure why you’re projecting so much anger and disdain towards me, but I’ll try to make one final attempt to respond to your comments. However I realize that no matter what I say, it will be wrong in your eyes.
For example, you first criticized my style of writing and instructed me to “Drop the use of the royal ‘we.'” But when I tried to comply with your request, you then condemned me, saying: “Like you or any number of others who like to inject themselves into a scene that they were not a party to so that they can steel away the limelight and direct it to themselves…” So I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t.
Just to remind you of how you’ve characterized me, here are a few more of your statements in this regard:
– “do not actually possess the moral high ground”
– “you yourself seem confused”
– “your rather school boy antic”
– “after reading a few posts of yours they can discover for themselves your true value and see what you are up to”
– “the person that you were pretending to be”
– “your delicious ego tripping games”
– “Yours is the same effrontery as that Tamel Krsna presented Srila Prabhupada with and is accompanied with the same glaring defect”
– “you do not truely have an appreciation that Srila Prabhupdas mercy was being poured out like rain long before anyone ever heard of the Rtviks”
– “you are still wandering in the darkness born of ignorance.”
– “your addle-pated concept”
– “please continue to feel free to posture yourself as whatever you please”
– “LM has nothing reasonable to explain and is running off on the strength of his emotions and egoism”
– “as blinded and as conditioned as you are”
– “one of your delusions”
– “play acting”
– “bull crap,” etc.
Since you’ve already decided who and what I am, perhaps you might as well add a few more descriptive (and resoundingly appropriate) words to your list such as “evil, demon, rakshasha, devil, blasphemer, rogue, fool, rascal, idiot, imposter, scum of the earth, slimeball, lowest of the low…” etc.
Forgive me, please, but I do have to disagree with your following comment:
“Get real LM, drop that phopey baloney false humility b.s. No one aspires to be be nothing unless their so wounded or scarred their way past carring even where their ashes are scattered. ”
George, when I wrote that “I am nothing,” that was not humility, nor was it false humility. It’s the truth – plain and simple. Srila Prabhupada himself set the example:
Govinda dasi: “Prabhupada, what does it mean exactly to surrender?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Surrender is to know that ‘I am nothing’… I should know, I am less than the stool of a hog.”
(Govinda dasi, Prabhupada Memories)
“A Krishna Consciousness person thinks always about himself as the lowest creature in the world… A Krishna Conscious person is never falsely puffed-up…”
(Srila Prabhupada letter, June 1, 1968)
“I am very poor and I have nothing to return for your loving service…”
(Srila Prabhupada letter, October 21, 1968)
Sanatana Goswami said to Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu:
“Although I am what is known in the world as a great learned man, I am in fact so much of a fool that I myself even think that I am learned.”
(Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 3)
And:
“People believe that I am a great learned man, and I am so foolish that I believe it myself. But what to speak of being learned, I don’t even know who I am.”
So if a pure devotee thinks himself to be nothing, then what am I? Most certainly “less than nothing,” as I admitted to you. I do not think of myself as “clever,” as you claim. Quite to the contrary. I’m a stupid fool with no hope whatsoever, save and except Srila Prabhupada’s divine mercy.
Even Socrates wrote: “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
This is the beginning of spiritual life. Otherwise, how can we accept a spiritual master as our life and soul and aspire to serve him eternally if we think we are “something”? This is not imitation, but simply admitting our true position:
“Personally, I have no hope for any direct service of the coming crores of births in the sojourn of my life, but I am confident that some day or other I shall be delivered from this mire of delusion in which I am at present so deeply sunk. Therefore let me with all my earnestness pray at the lotus feet of my divine master to allow me to suffer the lot for which I am destined due to my past misdoings, but to let me have this power of recollection: that I am nothing but a tiny servant of the Almighty Absolute Godhead, realized through the unflinching mercy of my divine master. Let me therefore bow down at his lotus feet with all the humility at my command.”
(Srila Prabhupada Vyasa-Puja offering, Bombay, 1935)
In another comment, you accuse me of the following:
“Not only do you feel free to speak for others just as blinded and as conditioned as you are perhaps yourself, but you also now feel free to speak for Krsna’s pure devotee Srila Prabhupada. I have no doubt that soon you will be speaking for even Krsna Himself.”
Yet you seem to be doing the very same thing that you blame me for doing:
“So by replying ‘Rtvik, yes’ Srila Prabhupada cheated those who were trying to manipulate him into proclaiming them to be the next acaryas of the Krsna consciousness movement. Though, at thee time, they did not know it, the very fact that he had aknowledged them as Rtviks would, at time went by and understandinf developed, dethrone them from their acray position. In other words the word Rtvik would not tern out to be something that could be so easily dispensed with as they had dispensed with it. So this is one way that Srtila Prabhupada and Sri Krsna cheated them.”
Furthermore, you write:
“In Rocana dasa’s time, the Rtvik phenomenon is a product of the Zonal Acarya scam, it grew out of it, was a reaction to it. I agree with that pretty much completely, except as far as who it was that was reacting to the Zonals that gave rise to it. Rocana seems to feel that the ones doing the reacting were the regular Joes like Yasodanandana, etc., but I don’t think so. Someone was indeed reacting to the Zonals, but it wasn’t those Johnny come latelys who took over twenty years to get the idea for Rtvik into their heads that had been already waiting for them. It was Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and there was nothing causeless or unintentional about it, it was completely deliberate.”
Once again you seem to know, in fact – without any references to back up your claim – what Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna both had in mind, saying Their actions were “completely deliberate.” You also declare that “the Rtvik phenomenon” grew as a reaction to the “Zonal Acarya scam,” once again conveniently ignoring that Srila Prabhupada himself said, “Ritvik, yes” on May 28, 1977. Aside from that, you declare unilaterally that it took “those Johnny come latelys… over twenty years to get the idea for Ritvik into their heads.” But in fact, there were many devotees around at the time who immediately disagreed with the illegal takeover of ISKCON by the phoney “gurus.” They may not have made it on the front page of the news, but they were there, and they objected and raised their concerns to their temple presidents and GBC members. Many left the movement right there and then, especially after March of 1978 when the “appointed eleven” ostentatiously and unauthorizedly set up their big “vyasasanas” in the Mayapur Chandrodaya Mandir in Sri Sri Radha Madhava’s very own temple room during the first Mayapur festival after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. Therefore, contrary to what may be commonly believed, the bogus guru system was not accepted by everyone. Not only that, but Srila Prabhupada had already instituted the very same system of conducting initiations in the early 1970’s, although as you have correctly stated, it was not publicly known or called the ritvik system back then. Still, it was already in effect and was not something new or invented by any “Johnny come latelys.”
You continue:
“No, I am simply deranged. You have hundreds even thousands of Rtviks claiming that you can accept Srila Prabhupada as ones initiating guru after his physical disappearance but I’m the only one I know whose claiming to have seen him and go ahead, give me a lie detector test – and I’m not even a Rtvik, how crazy is that?”
I’m very happy for you, George. Personally, I wish that everyone could have a personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada because there’s nothing sweeter. Yet, when one devotee asked Srila Prabhupada about his relationship with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati he replied, “That you do not require.” Prabhupada did not discuss such intimate things in public and he admitted that he almost always contained his ecstacies lest they be midunderstood by the common man. Likewise Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Who discussed the intimate pastimes of Lord Krsna and the gopis only with his most intimate disciples and not publicly.
You further state:
“Do you see him? Have you heard him since his physical dissapearence? I have. I have heard Srila Prabhupada speak to me since his physical disappearance and I have seen him. Even a dog however can hear his masters voice calling to him from beyond the grave. Are you not men? From you should we not expect better?”
Are you suggesting that the members here are dogs (or less) because they don’t trumpet or broadcast their spiritual superiority and higher realizations? It seems that way, George. After all, almost everything they say is “crap” according to you:
“… what I think about the Rtviks is that most of the ones that are up here writing me with their crap simply do not care. Why should they?”
You go on to say:
“The thought that Srila Prabhupada did not actually want anyone to be qualified enough for him to promote them to the position of being the next acarya of the Krsna Consciousness movement and that he continues not to want thisto this day is really, really, really offensive…”
To the best of my knowledge, no one here has said that Srila Prabhupada didn’t want qualified gurus, but only (as he said) “when the training is complete.” In the meantime, he ordered, “Ritvik, yes,” when asked about how initiations would take place AFTER his departure. I don’t know about you, George, but if that’s good enough for Srila Prabhupada, then it’s good enough for me.
You say that we “simply don’t care.” If no one here cared about you, then why would we spend so much time writing to you? This is a virtual istagosthi, where we’ve all been given the opportunity to gather and learn from one another. Do you think that the Sampradaya Sun or Dandavats.com would publish your current statements (replete with cuss words) as they are? But the dreaded “ritviks” have done so, giving you free reign to say whatever you want off the top of your head: “Most of the stuff that I write to you LM or to anyone else is off the cuff.”
You conclude: “Keep it up LM, you’ll make ISKCON guru in no time.” Sorry , George. But in case you haven’t noticed, I firmly believe that there’s only one guru for ISKCON – and for the whole world. Apparently, you have another idea. OK, once again, good luck!
Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!
(P.S. You never did answer the original question: “Do you agree with Rocan das that Srila Prabhupada is “post-mortem”? Oh well, never mind…)
May 28, 1977 Vrindavan, India
Krsna-Balarama Temple
Satsvarupa Goswami: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).
Tamal Krsna Goswami: Is that called Ritvik acarya?
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik. Yes”.
So, these were his instruction to the GBC as a body. They were not instructions for the sum-total of all his disciples to follow.
Such were the facts as they appeared to normal men but Srila Prabhupada is again, not a normal man, he is instead a seer of the truth instead. In the light of history the truth that he must have seen has finally become clear to us, that truth being that what they wanted was to see him dead and that as soon as he uttered the words pronouncing anyone of them the next acarya he would no longer be of any use to them and would simply stand in the way of their ambition.
This is what the Rtviks have been saying for years but now suddenly it disappears from their consideration as to even entertain it might call into question what Srila Prabhupada both wanted and intended, even then.
Why did Srila Prabhupada say the things he said? If indeed Srila Prabhupada had been a normal man then the answer would have been simple: Because he wanted to live. But Srila Prabhupada was not a normal man, he is a pure devotee of Krsna and if his life would best serve Krsna he would live and if his death would best serve Krsna his life he would give. What Srila Prabhupada wanted then and now was for the Krsna consciousness movement to live and it would not live for very long if he pronounced one of them as being anything other than he had already pronounced them to be; normal men, unqualified to initiate even an ant. So why were there here again, because they were so hard of hearing, or was there even now a conspiracy? Was the poison going down already and did they just hope to manipulate him into naming somebody so that they could decide among themselves who else should be targeted. What was in fact going on then that Prabhupada saw but that we still do not see but which influenced him to do what he always did best which was to handle the situation perfectly? What was it that caused him to pronounce those two words that have long since become the cliché and banner of your movement, those two little words Rtvik, yes?
LM asks in his reply to me:
Do we really need hundreds of essays and thousands (perhaps tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands) of words written trying to explain (or explain away) this simple order from His Divine Grace while he lay on his bed in Vrindavan after completing a sublime and unparalleled life of total dedication and surrender to fulfilling the order of his beloved spiritual master? Does Srila Prabhupada not deserve the right — has he not earned the right — by dint of his selfless sacrifice for us all to decide for himself what he wants for the movement which he struggled so hard to single-handedly establish in this ungrateful world against all odds?
It is my thought that when a so-called simple order ends a practice of initiation that has been followed since the Sun-God was first initiated and begins a new practice that I doubt that either Krsna Himself or Srila Prabhupada would begrudge us a few words, or many thousands of words of explanation or debate among ourselves before we make ourselves bold enough to make such changes for after all, we are conditioned souls and therefore could be mistaken.
But I see that the power of the Slogan has already caught such persons as LM up in it, how it already moves them emotionally. How soon it will be before it causes them to stamp his feet, march down streets and kick down the doors behind which any person may be hiding from the consequences of choosing not to chant your mindless rant is only a matter of conjecture. Rest assured, it will happen it’s only a question of when. Some of us have seen it, some have fought it, landed a punch for freedom on some Nazis jaw, but we have all read about it happening, a thousand times before. Alas, the only thing that we learn from history is that we never learn anything from history – not about ourselves at least, about the human condition and what there is about it that can take a normal man or woman and turn them into a ravening beast– and “History repeats itself” So the sayings go. But did you ever wonder why? Why history repeats itself? It is because human consciousness never changes. It is human consciousness (such as it is) that repeats itself over and over again. What Srila Prabhupada has brought to us is a way to change history, a scientific process that by changing human consciousness will stop the bloodshed finally at last. Srila Prabhupada lived and died to do this, so what I feel actually beholding enough to him to do – or “behooved” as LM chooses to put it, is not to simply accept some other persons interpretation of what some other person wants or wanted but what that person wants as that person communicates their own desires to one directly. For that there has to really be some connection and that connection is established through initiation. Then what one shares is simply ones realizations rather than ones snotty attitude and boyish immaturity.
Dear George A Smith,
You have now added “snotty attitude and boyish immaturity” to your previous list of personal accusations, presumptuous conclusions, and ad hominem attacks.
“ad hominem: An ad hominem (Latin for ‘to the man’ or ‘to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person’s character, rather than to the content of their arguments.”
It’s quite obvious that you’re far superior to me in all respects, and therefore you cannot and will not learn anything from me at all. Therefore I sincerely apologize for wasting your Holiness’s valuable time.
om tat sat
LW Writes
It’s quite obvious that you’re far superior to me in all respects, and therefore you cannot and will not learn anything from me at all. Therefore I sincerely apologize for wasting your Holiness’s valuable time.
I wasn’t aware that thinking that someone was an ass made me holy. Oh well. Is “We” going home now?
Dear HP
Are you ok?
To many nice people end up getting treated like dogs for me to like the goings on in this world very much. What was that that Srila Prabhupada always said? “Thjs world is no place for gentleman.” Lately I’m beginning to suspect that it isn’t fit anymore even for dogs and my God, heres the proof of it, its been left up to the humans to go out and fix it. Not without Krsna consciousness they won’t, but how to gethere there from here or really, even can we? Answer is that if we truely avail ourselves of Lord Krsnas mercy and Srila Prabhupadas direction that wee might be able to. It is a chance.
Had I not known for a fact that Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee of Krsnba I wouldn’t have been so helpful, As it was he puzzled me and stoll does but a couple of things he has revealed to me.
I am far from transcendental these days, although some vistages remain, like the fading light after the flash of a camara has gone off in a darked room. Although almost completely blind now, some light remains.
I am not a Rtvik for the same reason that I am not an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada, it issomething deeply personal. . When I joined the movement I knew that the day would come when I would have to leave. This wasn’t a problem at first but then one day mother Swahna, Rocanas first wife told me that Srila Prabhupada had said that no one who lived outside of the association of devotees could maintain regulative principles. That was a problem for it meant that even if I took the vows that are required for one to take ant initiation that I would later break them.
My problem was this: Both my parents were old and ill, especially my father, whose doctors had been expecting him to die for some time. Since I did not expect that my father had much longer to live and knew that my mother would need me if he died I could not in good conscience take initiation. Some of the devotees who I explained this to re-assure me that there was nothing at all wrong with abandoning ones family in the service of Krsna, which meant to them I guess that they needed someone to continue to scub the toilest for them and to carry out their garbage, even if that meant that that persons mother would be left bereft, in illness and misery to spend her last few years among strangers or to die alone. I did not think on the other hand that Srila Prabhupada or Lord Krtsna Himself would be so heartless and callous.
About six months my father shaved up for the first and last time, offered some pieces of apple, some water and flowers to a picture of Sri-Sri Madana-Mohana from the Vancouver temple that I had sent to them and then quietly died on the floor of his room offering his obeisances to them, not however before going into another one of his maniacal rages with the extra added benefit this time of it having left my mother with a broken neck from where she had “fallen” the week before. By the time that my brother had saw fit to call me she was languishing in a hospital bed – not expected to live. So I left the temple of Lord Jaganatha on Capitol Hill in Seattle to return to my parents, probably I would be just in time to bury both of them.
Before I left I took my leave of the deities, promising Lord Jaganatha that I wotld never forget Him and of Srila Prabhupada, begging for his pardon and for leave to go and take care of my mother until she didn’t need taking care of any longer. I promised that I would return then and never leave again. Only one devotee came to see me off. Mother Padajvali stuck here head out through the door for just long enough to call me “fool” and that was that and then I took off for the bus stop to catch the bus that would take me to the airport and to a plane that if it were just quick enough might get me to my mother’s bedside before she passed. That’s when things got interesting. That’s when something came along to take my mind off my miseries.
It was there at the Grey Hound bus depot in Seattle while waiting for the bus to the airport that I discovered just how foolish I had been. Do you remermber what Rocanas first wife mother Swahna had told me, of how Srila Prabhupada said that outside of the association of the devotees that one could not follow regulative principles and how that had been the reason why I had not taken initiation?
What Mother Swahma had told me was true, but there was something else, there was Srila Prabhupada.
As I sat there at the bus station contemplating my families disaster I happened to notice the people around me, where they were situated within the modes, what were there mentalities. It was like a viel being lifted from my eyes or like the flash of a camara going off in a darkenedd room. All of a sudden and for the first time in my life I could see the world as it was. For no reason at all I stood up and wlked over to the row of lockers. I had no belongings to check or any interest and yet I walked right up to one and opened it and there inside was a bucket filled with fresh carnations, that and a tape by the Beatle George Harrison “All Things Must Pass” and a farewell note from one of the devotees, not to me but to the temple. I hadn’tr even known that the devotees had gove there.
Just as I thought that it couldn’t get any stranger I had what I considered to be a realization, that realization being that it had really been my own lack of faith that had prevented me from surrendering completely and yet neither Srila Prabhupada nor Lord Krsna had held it against me for here the both of them were awarding me with everything.
Mother Swahna had told that Srila Prabhupada had said that a devotee could not follow regulative principles outside of the association of devotees, that must have been true but there was more to itwhich was that a devotee could not follow regulative principles outside of the association of devotees unless he or shee were liberated. As I stood there before the opened locker, reflecting upon the ropes that thick as fishes scales were sliding off of me I understood what else I had been given besides some form a liberation. There they were before be in glorious color and in each and everyone of them an opportunity to hand them out or to pin them onto the lapel of someone and to preach Krsnas glories. What I was being awarded with for my so called integrity was with both liberation and the opportunity to enter into devotional service in a liberated condition. So you know what I did. I shut the door to the locker and got out of there as fast as my feet could carry me because I was afraid that whatever might be left of me might not return to my dieing mothers bedside.
Still there were no losers. The doctors said it was a miracle and the nurse assured me that had I not returned that she would have died. Although she would never completely recover she did recover well enough to enjoy her life. She liked me to read Krsna book to her and even grew accustomed to my cooking and for almost twenty more years I cared for her “until she didn’t need caring for any more.”
And when finally she passed I felt her spirit all around me. Free at last.
It was only a few months after that when I found myself at the L.A. Rathyatra. Someone tappewd me on the shoulder and I heard a voice ask “Do you remember me?” I turned around and there was Lord Jaganatha towering above me, In truth after all those many years I had forgotten why my feet had brough me there, but Krsna hadn’t and Krsna had something for me. I lowered my gaze and there before me was the last person that I had ever brought to Krsna consciousness.
I was about this same time that I heard about the Rtviks, I saw nothing wrong with it the only wrong I saw was the attitude that others, the non-rtviks had towards them. You see when I had first joined the movement I had been surrounded by such young men and women ast these who were all worshiping Srila Prabhupada and accepting him as their spiritual master. They were called devotees. Now I found myself surrounded by the self same type of young men and women gloryfing Srila Prabhupada and accepting him as their spiritual master, but now trhey were being called poison. It didn’t seem right to me,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Nityananda Prabhu ki jai!!
George, thank you for asking and thank you showing such intimate human and transcendental feelings. Your love for Srila Prabhupada compels tears of appreciation and joy!
When I first opened the ‘Bhagavad-gita As It Is’ and saw and felt the Pancha Tattva, all those years ago, I became immediately, OK..
Since then I’ve always been OK even when I’m not. The small struggles I have been blessed with; an insufficient wonder of Krishna’s mercy to me and an insufficient gratitude for being touched by the simplicity in realization of faith in Krishna’s mercy via Pancha Tattva, Srila Prabhupada and devotees like your very wonderful self, renders me unable to be anything less.
I only hope to be one day, truly, a very small devotee.
hp. “I only hope to be one day, a very small devotee.”
Even though George. A Smith is completely ignorant of Guru Tattva, Diksha initiation and the wishes of Srila Prabhupada ‘hp’ is mesmerized by the nonsense coming out of his troubled mind!
If this is not complete lunacy, then I don’t know what is!
Mahesh Raja Prabhu has presented numerous examples given by His Divine Grace himself (a few comments further down) obout these basic topics which are the direct instructions of The Acharya! but George. A. Smith is living in the land of Peter Pan and talking his usual nonsense.
If the words and instructions of the Srila Prabhupada are OVERLOOKED then what is the value of this dicussion? Are we to just laboriously try to make sense of the outpourings of sentimental hogwash and hallucinations of George. A. Smith? Perhaps George should himself consider becoming a bogus FISKCON “guru” (he already has a mindless, sycophantic, starry-eyed follower in ”hp”?)
All glories to His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Perhaps I should have added … as opposed to a very big devotee like your good self.
Because we all know how impressed Srila Prabhupada is with such big devotees..
Dear HP
I received similar comfort the first time that I ever opened Bhagavad Gita As It Is. I was a service man then, still in the army when I met a girl at the airport who gave me a card with an invitation to a free Sunday Feast upon the one side and on the other an old familiar friend Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.
Years before when I was studying the Occult and going over the hill into Hollywood to get my books I had first encountered the devotees chanting along Hollywood Blvd. Acting under direction I had tested them then, to see if they were indeed what they were.
Assuming an attitude that was filled with relevant enquiry, eager and submissive, I stood there while both lines of the chanters passed by, one on either side of me, close enough for me to see their eyes. Theyt were in ectacy. While my friend Mike shut his eyes, grimaced, covered his ears and ducked away as if he were in pain I stood there frozen until looking into the eyes of the last of the chanters, I experienced something of a transport, a flash of that heaven, that transcendence that had taken them up into it, a great golden light that blazed through their eyes and all to the sound of Hare Krsna.
Like I wrote earlier, there are places yoi can go that you can never get back from, or even if you come back from them flying in the seating section of an airplane or in a body bag, blown apart or blown away, your still dead. I was a lot more fortunate than many of my friends were who came back either way, I was still alive, but not for long, I’d say, the pointless deaths of so many of my friends and loved ones was like a great iron weight dragging me down . Still there was enough of the old me left to remind me of the resolve that I had foirmed in the back of my mind years before. After the girl; Lalita dd gave me the card I went over and stood by a railing, watching her while I tried to recall just what that resolution was. Finally it came to me. What I had checked the devotees out to be years before turned out to be bona fide and powerful and what I had then resolved myself to discover later on was the source of that power. I went into one of the airport Kiosks and bought a stuffed animal and gave it to Lalita dd before I left for my flight. It was another month before I got back from being on leave to the Seattle airport. I found the same girl Lalita dd taking lunch and reading Srimad Bhagavatam in a room downstairs. It was another day or two before I made it into Seattle and to the address shown on the card for the temple 400 18th Ave East, Capitol Hill Seattle. Don’t bother looking it up, the temple isn’t there anymore, just another victim of the Zonal Acarayas.
It was on this day however that Krsna had resolved to answerboth my original question, as to what was the earthly source for the power that was coursing through the entire movement and to my dilemma as well. I was met at the temple by mother Karla Pati who I had spoken with over the phone. After a while she invited me to just go into the temple room while she got on with her duties.
The deity doors were closed at this time and the room was empty except for a vyasasan upon which a picture of Srila Prabhupada was sitting. Understanding, through guru-tattva what Srila Prabhupadas own words would later also assure me of, which is that the pictures of the spiritual master is non different than the spiritual master I determined that I had at hand one of the two things that I felt were needed to conduct my test. The other was a book that I found on a step beside Srila Prabhupadas vyasana, Bhagavad Gita As It Is.
My mother’s people employ many different techniques for the telling of things. One of them is referred to as Bibliomancy, so named for the common use of the Christan Bible in its practice but any Holy Book may be used. In this technique one asks a question and concentrates upon the question while holding the book and then opening it up to a random page sets his finger down upon a random sentence and reads the answer to their question then.
It was a hard question that I had asked and a hard answer was the only thing that could have satisfied it. The answer that I read was that those who had been blown apart and blown away had never really died and that if I cared really about anyone that I would help them to end the cause of their pain, which is their confusion with their material body/mind complex. The only way that I could however do this was still a mystery to me at this time. The answer was so dead on, so appropriate that it not only soothed my troubled spirit by preoposing a solution where a moment before none had existed but also revealed to me that the source of the power of this Krsna consciousness movement was in this book, in the words of this one man A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. That this man was a transparent via medium between myself and that which could only be God by definition was also proven through this empirical test. After a time I arose, alive again. No longer the young man I once had been but no longer filled with grief and hopeflessness. Still a soldier though:
Therefore the doubts which have arisen in your heart out of ignorance should be slashed by the weapon of knowledge. Armed with yoga, O Bhārata, stand and fight. BG 4:42
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krsna
You were never a soldier George! Poor trash scraped off the street and forced to plunder and pillage Third World counties maybe. Just a dumb pawn protecting the stolen property of US Multi-National Corporations because your too dumb to realize that ‘The land of the Greed and the home of the Slave’ is a Zionist, Neo-Conservative ‘Sodom and Gomorrah’ of the cheaters and the cheated.
This hardly makes you an ‘authority’ on Srimad Bhagavad Gita!
In spite of your ‘Hollywood’ bluster and pride you were ‘sent packing’ by one of the smallest countries in the world (Vietnam), by people with bamboo poles. lets face it George, you’re just a pile of hot air with your ‘self musings’ and memoirs….so boring and pathetic. All you have to offer is the result of your ‘brainwashed, brain-dead’ Gomer Pyle, mentality, now permanantly ‘brainwashed’ like all the other FISKCON rascals and rogues.
What I picked up about you George, (right in the beginning) is that ‘you can never educate an idiot’ no matter how compassionate and knowledgeable the MANY devotees on this site have been towards you. Not only have the other devotees presented factual, sastric answers to your comments but many quotes by Srila Prabhupada and previous Acharyas also and in a very respectful manner. Your replies are always the same though…. an over-generous serving of boring ‘navel gazing’ and hogwash followed by an attack on ALL of those vaisnavas that are putting to rest all of your misconceptions and false notions.
‘Casting pearls to swine’ is indeed a futile activity especially when the swine in question has no brain, thinks himself very learned, has his ears blocked up with wax and only likes to ‘retort’ like a dumb ass. My own personal opinion is that ‘accommodating’ persons such as yourself only allows offences to be made towards genuine vaisnavas who only wish to share (out of their mercy) due to themselves having realized the mercy and vani of Srila Prabhupada due to their genuine sincerity. This is why I don’t give guys like you an inch, George! (As I said very early on in the piece!).
You cannot ‘wake up’ someone who is ‘pretending’ to be asleep!
My comments have only been for the benifit of others. Any comment (however well presented) for the benifit of George. A. Smith are a complete waste of everyones time and goodwill, and like a milk given to a snake will only increase his venom. I for one have had enough of this guy!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Surya dasa
“Are we to believe that that soul we knew as His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is now imprisoned in the spiritual world, bound by time and space, and unable to reach the hundreds, maybe thousands, of jiva souls sincerely calling out for his guidance, shelter and love?”
You knew Srila Prabhupadas “soul” prabhu? I envy you. I had but one glimpse of his mercy. It was like all of the oceans of all of the worlds had been poured together into one immeasurable sea, but Prabhu, likening Goloka Vrndavan to a place of imprisonment makes what? Krsna the warden? The cowheard boys and girls the prison guards and Govadhan Hill the watchtower? Do you really think that Krsna is so unimaginative as to have been able to come up with no other solution since before time immemorial began to help us get out of our fix other than by frustrating His Srila Prabhupadas comapassion when it was Krsnas own compassion for which reason he came to us in the first place?
Experience shows us that people who are starving don’t generally even take note of where the food that they are getting is coming from, they are just happy to be getting it, so if your saying that your mind is made up and that you won’t take Krsnas mercy from anyone other than Srila Prabhupada then prabhu, perhaps your just not hungry enough to receive it along with Krsnas and Srila Prabhupadas blessings.
It’s not that Srila Prabhupada is gone or unavailable to you, to me or to anyone else, but is it really his choice that with his own physical disappearance that the disciplic succession should come to an end? What would be the reason behind that prabhu?
Because no one else is qualified? Thats a good one for right then 38 years ago, but what about today and if not today then what about tomorrow and if not tomorrow, when? Never? And some of you think that is what Srila Prabhupada wished? How hellish.
Physical energy is propagated in space time. We are dealing with something that is propagated in association. It is analogous to energy, for it powers spiritual transformation as energy powers material transformation, but it does not seem to be subject to its limitations. So if your asking me if there are any prison walls that Srila Prabhupada could not break through, then of course not, but I really do think that if we were really talking about Goloka Vrndavan that Srila Prabhupada wouldn’t have to break through any walls to get out of it, he’d just have to go over them with Krsna giving him a boost up and letting Srila Prabhupada stand on His head so his fingers could stretch to the tip top of the wall and then Krsna would be over the wall right after him and both together would be racing towards our world so fast…
Do not forget that the desire of Krsnas pure devotee is Krsnas commandment and in that you may find the truth and the secret of your slogan, of your “Rtvik, yes.” For what Srila Prabhupada affirms Krsna confirms but don’t go looing your heads and taking it out of context. Don’t forget who came to him with the question and don’t forget what they wanted and were trying to do. That they were trying to manipulate Srila Prabhupada into giving them everything and he gave them nothing instead. Nothing and everything. As it was had they simply accepted their role as Rtvik representatives of Srila Prabhupada who continued to initiate upon his behalf their assent would have been as swift as their fall. As it turned out instead they tried to separate the fruit from the husk, the acarya from the Rtvik and ended up with nothing instead for from the orthodox no one would accept such a definition and from their own movement no one after long would accept them as ever having been appointed anything other than representatives, so either way, Srila Prabhupada cheated them but not the ones who came along and hearing and believing in his words would reach out to him, in this transcendental cheat they would be accepted though no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity. Two words from Srila Prabhupada balanced against all of the Veda and it would be the veda that would be found the less heavy. But it is no concoction anyway, just an adaptation to time place and capacity and it has precedent. That precedent happens however to have been responsible for the Spanish Inquisition, so watch yourself.
Dear George, thank you for your reply. With all due respect I found it lacking clarity and logic, and I remain unconvinced.
In regards to your closing statement; when Srila Prabhupada uttered two words, “Sixteen rounds” changing it from the 64, the devotees were happy enough to accept that Iskcon’s founder acarya – as the authorized representative of Krishna – could do such things. It would be very confusing for us to follow the Vedas without guidance, (which is why we have the Bhaktivedanta purports) as there is much in the Vedas that is not applicable to the current time, place and set of circumstances. You may follow the Vedas but I chose to follow Srila Prabhupada. If His Divine Grace says there should be a Brahmacarini asarama, performs wedding ceremonies even though a sannyas, crosses the ocean, initiates the melechas, introduces brahman to woman and alters the number of rounds we are to chant, then I accept that as being correct, even though others may criticize it as not in keeping with their interpretation of what’s ‘Vedic’. So yes, if Srila Prabhupada says do it this way I’m inclined to follow that over and above all other instructions. (Also just a thought, have you read the entire body of Vedic knowledge before making the statement, “though no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity”?)
Dear Sudarsana Das Vanacari
You know what I like about you? You are just so positive.
The activities of the brain and nervous system include large indeterminant components. When those activities are impacted by a strong level of transcendence, the result would be a change in the random behavior of the neuron, which could generate pseudo-sensory, emotional, or cognitive events. The recipient of this input or communication might find himself seeing, hearing, feeling, etc., something that to his or her day to day frame of mind may seem otherworldly, even unbelievable. I have spoken to many devotees who have experienced such occurrences, happenings out of the ordinary ranging from a simple break in the hum-drum day to day to something very out of the ordinary, even miraculous. Just recently I was reading an article upon this site in which one devotee recounted his experiences in which the deities actually appeared to be dancing with him- quite preposterous for effigies made out of simply wood and stone, but that is is choice in mentalities that I have never chosen and the key to the explanation as to why to one psychologist a person may seem to be crazy while to another he may seem perfectly sane.
It is simply this, that fundamental materialism does not admit to the existence of transcendence and therefore such appearances can only signal some disorder of the brain, even when such visions as the sun turning cartwheels in heaven and then bending low to the ground to dry the rain drenched cloathing of thousands is witnessed together by just as many, such as occurred at Fatima. Science has a convenient explanation for this – mass hallucination, but it’s been wearing pretty thin since just the New Physics was discovered, although they still seem to teach it to young psychology majors or people who just think that they know what crazy is, or who is crazy.
Many “hallucinations” or miracles are personel and although they be experienced in a crowd no one else is aware of them, sort of like initiation which is an inner turning rather than an outward show and is always an affair between the initiator and the initiated. One cannot always “tap” them, so to speak, in an attempt to determine their objectivity, though one may certainly try, such as one young fool did back in his wayward youth when he went to touch the face of Lord Jaganatha one night. He was not a bhraman and knew that it was not allowed but still it was just one of those things that coming up that he knew that he had to do. Not to test his faith mind you, for even then he had no doubt or at least he did not think that he did.
It was late one night and he just happened to be returning something that someone had forgotten to return and the curtains had been left open. Barely in the darkness he could see Lord Jaganaths polished face reflected the heavens outside in its blackness and the bright lights of its stars. His hand reached out but while he should have felt the thump of wood his hasnd reached out into the coolness of outer space and felt the heat of the stars as they swirled around his finger tips. He was so amazed and then so frightened, frightened by his own audacity and what might be the consequences of his act, no so much fear of punishment but fear perhaps that he had saddened or disappointed the Lord of the Universe Lord Jaganatha Swami. How appropriate though he thought it to be that the Lord of the universe was filled with stars. . Slowly he withdrew his hand, expecting, he knew not what, a thunderbolt perhaps but Lord Jaganatha continued to smile. He started to tell one devotee about this a few days later, a Krsnachandra das, who was later married to Bhakta Raymonds favorate, the red haired girl Syama-Priya, the one who served in the kitchen, but as Krsnachandra dasa came so near to apoplexy he relented. Krsnacandra was an Irish boy, If I remember and the Irish have a saying that suits the recounting of the miraculous, which is “If you meet a two headed pig along the rod, don’t tell anybody.”
Most devotees have stories of their own experiences and the miracles that they have witnessed but shy away from speaking of them in a setting where they will be ridiculed or called crazy.
George A. Smith: It’s not that Srila Prabhupada is gone or unavailable to you, to me or to anyone else, but is it really his choice that with his own physical disappearance that the disciplic succession should come to an end?
Mahesh : Disciplic succession comes to end? Simply BOGUS argument! This means you ARE IGNORANT. You have ZERO understanding of the Disciplic succession and WHAT EXACTLY a Diksa guru is:
Physical disappearance does NOT mean Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa stops. The disciplic succession CONTINUES until there is a NEXT PROMINENT ACARYA in the line. Since Srila Prabhupada is PROMINENT ACARYA NOW. IT CONTINUES. There is NO PHYSICAL BODY requirement to TRANSMIT Krsna in another’s heart(Diksa). There are GAPS in the disciplic succession of THOUSANDS OF YEARS so it does not mean that one has to go to physical bodied CONDITIONED SOUL GLOWWORMS voted in by the BOGUS GBC to get Diksa. Disciplic succession is SUCCESSION of ACARYAS. The PROMINENT ACARYA is the REQUIREMENT he is SELF EFFULGENT:
SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
THE POTENCY OF TRANSCENDENTAL SOUND IS NEVER MINIMIZED BECAUSE THE VIBRATOR IS APPARENTLY ABSENT.
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYA, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
67-01-19. Letter: Brahmananda, Hayagriva, Kirtanananda, Satsvarupa, Gargamuni, Acyutananda,
I understand that you are feeling my absence. Krishna will give you strength. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS IMMATERIAL; presence of the transcendental sound received from the spiritual master should be the guidance of life.
67-08-02. Letter: Students
Please accept my blessings. I am always thinking of you, and I am feeling separation. I wish to return at the earliest opportunity. I cannot stop my western world activities and I have taken leave from you for only six months; and it may be that on or before I will come to you again. So continue your activities with great vigor. I shall always pray to Krishna for your steady advance, but try to follow the principles which are necessary to strengthen oneself in the matter of spiritual advance. Never think that I am absent from you. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS NOT ESSENTIAL; PRESENCE BY MESSAGE (OR HEARING) IS REAL TOUCH. Lord Krishna is present by His message which was delivered 5,000 years ago. We feel always the presence of our past Acaryas simply by their immutable instructions.
69-08-17.Gov Letter: Govinda
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated August 9th, 1969. In the meantime I have sent one tape to Gaurasundara. Perhaps you might have received it, and if it is all right, then I can send you many other tapes, similarly stereoed. From the description of your letter I understand that Hawaii is good field for our preaching work. The hippies are actually immediate candidates for our Krishna Consciousness. We pray to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, Your Incarnation is to claim the most fallen souls.” So in this age of Kali almost everyone is dangerously fallen, and the hippies appear to be still more greater fallen. Besides that, from their behavior it appears they like this movement. This is a very good sign. Your description of that Yogi Sai, that is also little hopeful. He is reading Bhagavad-gita and quoting some lines. So you are very intelligent; you can tackle these people very nicely, assisted by your good husband and the other boys and girls. YOU WRITE THAT YOU HAVE DESIRE TO AVAIL OF MY ASSOCIATION AGAIN, BUT WHY DO YOU FORGET THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS IN ASSOCIATION WITH ME? When you are helping my missionary activities I am always thinking of you and you are always thinking of me. That is real association. Just like I always think of my Guru Maharaja every moment, although He is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve Him to my best capacity, I am sure He is helping me by His spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical and preceptorial. PHYSICAL ASSOCIATION IS NOT SO IMPORTANT AS PRECEPTORIAL ASSOCIATION.
75-11-04. Letter: Suci
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter as I was leaving the temple to come here to Bombay. You have rightly said that the best way to associate with the spiritual master is to follow his instructions. There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present 5,000 years ago and is no longer present physically from the materialistic viewpoint, still Bhagavad-gita continues. So you have correctly concluded.
69-03-14. Letter: Rupanuga
Regarding your third question–“Why are there apparent time-gaps in the line of disciplic succession as listed in the Bhagavad-gita? Is Arjuna an instructor Spiritual Master and not an initiator Spiritual Master and therefore not listed?” THE TIME GAP MENTIONED BY YOU IS INEVITABLE, BECAUSE THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION SOMETIMES BECOMES DISCONNECTED, AS WE FIND FROM THE BHAGAVAD-GITA. THIS IS THE INFLUENCE OF MATERIAL ENERGY, AND TO LINK IT UP AGAIN, IT TAKES SOME TIME. THAT SOME TIME MAY APPEAR TO OUR CALCULATION A BIG GAP, BUT IN RELATION WITH THE ETERNAL TIME, IT IS NOT EVEN AS INSTANT. SO THIS BIG GAP OR SMALL GAP OF TIME IS RELATIVE. JUST LIKE OUR 24 HOURS AND BRAHMA’S 24 HOURS, THERE IS MUCH DIFFERENCE. OUR 24 HOURS IS NOT EVEN A FRACTION OF HIS SECOND.
69-10-31 Letter: Dinesh
Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated October 21, 1969 along with a contribution of $25. I have already acknowledged receipt of your new record. Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN THAT ONE HAS TO BE INITIATED OFFICIALLY. DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION MEANS TO ACCEPT THE DISCIPLIC CONCLUSION. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
Note: George does NOT understand what Diksa is. He is IGNORANT: his Diksa undestanding is throw a few sesame seeds and banana in the fire – that’s it – initiated! And HIS VERSION of disciplic succcession means you need that GBC voted CONDITIONED SOUL CROOK person physical “guru” JUST PRESENT TO THROW in few sesame seeds and banana in the fire – bas! Inititation! BUT there is FAR MORE DETAILED understanding of Diksa. You have to get your SVARUPA (constitutional position). THIS is REVEALED. It is NOT so cheap:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
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http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
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Note: Once you SEE Krsna in YOUR HEART your SVARUPA is REVEALED. THAT is WHAT Diksa is: YOUR spiritual LOVING MELLOW means you can SERVE Krsna as Friend(like Cowherd boys), Gopis (lover) etc. SELF REALIZATION. It can take MANY MANY BIRTHS. Janme Janme Prabhu sei THIS is why Srila Prabhupada is OUR DIksa Guru he takes CHARGE to deliver us. It is NOT SO CHEAP. ONLY Mahabhagavata has KRSNA in HIS heart so HE can TRANSFER Krsna in YOUR heart and when you SEE Krsna you REALIZE your SVARUPA (constitutional position):
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki.
Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
69-01-22. Letter: Vilasavigraha
In regard to your next question, self realization means God realization, and God realization means self realization. JUST LIKE TO SEE THE SUN MEANS TO SEE ONESELF, AND TO SEE ONESELF MEANS TO SEE THE SUN. SELF REALIZATION DEPENDS COMPLETELY UPON GOD REALIZATION, OR ELSE IT IS NOT COMPLETE. ONE MUST KNOW HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH TO FULLY KNOW HIS POSITION.
George A Smith writes ;
” Do not forget that the desire of Krsnas pure devotee is Krsnas commandment and in that you may find the truth and the secret of your slogan, of your “Rtvik, yes.” For what Srila Prabhupada affirms Krsna confirms but don’t go looing your heads and taking it out of context. Don’t forget who came to him with the question and don’t forget what they wanted and were trying to do. That they were trying to manipulate Srila Prabhupada into giving them everything and he gave them nothing instead. Nothing and everything. As it was had they simply accepted their role as Rtvik representatives of Srila Prabhupada who continued to initiate upon his behalf their assent would have been as swift as their fall. As it turned out instead they tried to separate the fruit from the husk, the acarya from the Rtvik and ended up with nothing instead for from the orthodox no one would accept such a definition and from their own movement no one after long would accept them as ever having been appointed anything other than representatives, so either way, Srila Prabhupada cheated them but not the ones who came along and hearing and believing in his words would reach out to him, in this transcendental cheat they would be accepted though no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity. Two words from Srila Prabhupada balanced against all of the Veda and it would be the veda that would be found the less heavy. But it is no concoction anyway, just an adaptation to time place and capacity and it has precedent. That precedent happens however to have been responsible for the Spanish Inquisition, so watch yourself.
George your writing is subject to FOUR DEFECTS.
That is why you are loosing your head and taking it out of context.
George A Smith: ….”no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity. Two words from Srila Prabhupada balanced against all of the Veda”
Mahesh: You don’t know Vedas. You are IGNORANT. You have to LEARN the conclusion of all Vedas from THE BHAKTIVEDANTA. He has realized the conclusion of ALL vedas hence, the title: Bhaktivedanta.
And the Srila Prabhupada is called His Divine Grace A. C. BHAKTIVEDANTA Swami Prabhupada.
Here is something that was discussed ages ago:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42978#comment-31644
“Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different than that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected.”
(Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)
ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada’s movement!
“An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)
It is a fact that pre-1977, many of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples never even met him! This can only mean that without them ever meeting Srila Prabhupada, they could achieve the same goal as a disciple who did meet him in person.
“Srimad Viraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)
When Srila Prabhupada appointed 11 ritviks representatives for his movement, as per the July 9th Letter, he never said or left any instruction that stated they were to convert to gurus at some point in time. He entrusted these men to do this job on his behalf, and stated that more persons could be added later to also act on his behalf as ritvik representatives. He also stated that the disciples given initiation via each one of these men are his disciples, Srila Prabhupada’s disciples.
We can see from the Sastra above that Srila Prabhupada, the bona fide Sampradaya Acarya, could well do this if he so desired. Why have the governing body all these years, denied the disciples who were initiated via the first 11 ritvik representatives their rightful place within ISKCON as duly initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada? Why have they made many of those initiated by one of the first eleven ritvik representatives take re-initiation from one of the newly voted in gurus?
Srila Prabhupada never said that within his movement gurus could be voted in. This was introduced by Ravindra Svarupa, not Srila Prabhupada. Ravindra Svarupa nor the management had no authority to introduce such a heresy into ISKCON, which is Srila Prabhupada’s Movement.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=42978#comment-31644
Formalities
BY: MAHESH RAJA
Sep 14, UK (SUN) — The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
In his recent article, “Ravindra Svarupa’s Role in the Guru Reform Movement”, Rocana Prabhu wrote”
“It’s a fact, as Kurma dasa writes, that this system of voted-in gurus is nonsense. Of course, Kurma prabhu is trying to make out that Srila Prabhupada’s original program, which he thinks is synonymous with the current Rtvik system, should be put in place now. That’s where he and I have a different understanding. I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.”
Since many of us support the July 9th 1977 ORDER of Ritvik System that Srila Prabhupada himself set-up AND NEVER RECINDED, I wish to respond to the above.
The Ritvik System is just FORMALITIES, so as per Srila Prabhupada’s instructions: “The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
It is being misconstrued as “introduce a new system”, BUT–FACTUALLY–it is ONLY FORMALITIES.
Lets study the following in terms of FORMALITIES:
1) Srila Prabhupada as a sannayasi got his disciples married. There is no verification in sastra that a sannyasi can do this.
Srimad Bhagavatam 5.1.24 Purport – The Activities of Maharaja Priyavrata:
“Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.”
Srila Prabhupada’s Vyasapuja Lecture, August 22, 1973, London:
“I’m sometimes criticized by my Godbrothers that I have become a marriage-maker, because a sannyasi does not take part in a marriage ceremony, but I get my disciples married. This is also unique in the history. So they criticize me that I have become a marriage-maker. But they, they do not know why I take this risk. I have got many disciples, they are married couples, but all of them, husband and wife, they are helping this movement. Here is Bhagavan dasa, he’s also married man, children.”
Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Satsvarupa, September 20, 1968:
“In your letter of the 17th instant, you have very frankly inquired from me about householder life, especially in the matter of sex relationship. A sannyasi is not supposed to be asked about anything sexual. But still, because you are so much dependent on my instruction, so I must give you information as far as possible. Married life is not for sex indulgence. The principle of marriage is on the background of getting good children. So the householder is allowed to have sex life once in a month, just after the menstrual period. The menstrual period prolongs at least for 5 days, so after this 5 days, one can have sex life provided he desires to get a child. And as soon as the wife is pregnant, no more sex life, until the child is born and is grown up at least for 6 months. After that, one may have sex life on the same principle. If one does not want more than one or two children, he should voluntarily stop sex life. But one should not strictly use any contraceptive method and at the same time indulge in sex life. That is very much sinful. If the husband and wife can voluntarily restrain by powerful advancement of Krishna Consciousness. That is the best method. It is not necessary that because one has got wife, therefore you must have sex life. The whole scheme is to avoid sex life as far as possible. And if one can avoid it completely then it is a great victory for him. Married life is a sort of license for sex life on condition of raising children. So you should try to understand these principles of married life and use your discretion. You should not imitate great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura, but you must follow His footprints. But it is not always possible to have the same success as great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura achieved. So in all circumstances you should try to follow the footprints of authorities but never to imitate them. Unless Jadurani develops a better health and strength, I do not advise her to become pregnant. I think you will understand the instruction as I have given and try to follow it as far as possible.”
Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Sacisuta, July 5, 1969:
“Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June 23, 1969, and I have carefully gone over the contents. I am so pleased to learn that you are feeling very nicely in Buffalo temple and you are working hard and sincerely to push on this sublime movement of Krishna Consciousness. Regarding your question about marriage, the thing is that as I am a sannyasi, I am not concerned with family life, but because I want to see my disciples very happy in Krishna Consciousness, therefore, those who are feeling some sexual disturbance are requested by me to get themselves married.”
2) Srila Prabhupada had disciples hear the TAPE of him giving Gayatri Mantra at brahmana initiation. There is no verification in sastra of this.
Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Gaura Hari, September 24, 1971:
“At your recommendation I have gladly consented to accept Guy as my duly initiated disciple. His letter and beads are enclosed herewith. Also enclosed are three sacred threads duly chanted by me as well as four papers with Gayatri mantra for the four devotees you have recommended for second initiation. You should secure the tape of me reciting Gayatri mantra from Makhanlal in Seattle. Let each devotee hear the tape privately, one at a time, and through the right ear. They should have the paper in front of them and hear and repeat each word. Beforehand you can show them how to count on the fingers, and beforehand hold a fire yajna and get the threads on the boys’ bodies.”
3) Srila Prabhupada had the WIFE of one disciple read Gayatri mantra to a devotee. There is no verification in sastra of this.
Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Vaikunthanatha, Sardia, April 4, 1971:
“Even though you have had no gayatri mantra, still you are more than brahmana. I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri mantra is as follows:
[TAKEN OUT]
Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body. Saradia, or any twice-initiated devotee, may perform the ceremony.
What Srila Prabhupada did was unprecedented in the history of Vaisnava sampradaya. But this did NOT mean he transgressed the sastra. On the contrary, sastra fully support Srila Prabhupada’s actions IN AS MUCH AS the Ritvik System is ALSO part and parcel of above FORMALITY, wherein the Ritvik Representatives are performing FORMALITIES, i.e., the fire sacrifice and name giving CEREMONIES. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport – Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest:
“Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 6.12.20 Purport – Vrtrasura’ s Glorious Death:
“Therefore Sukadeva Gosvami says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.18):
kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah
“Kiratas, Hunas, Andhras, Pulindas, Pulkasas, Abhiras, Sumbhas, Yavanas and members of the Khasa races, and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, for He is the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.” Anyone can be purified if he takes shelter of a pure devotee and molds his character according to the pure devotee’s direction. Then, even if one is a Kirata, Andhra, Pulinda or whatever, he can be purified and elevated to the position of a maha-paurusya.”
Rocana Prabhu wrote:
“I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.”
Yes we agree – ALL Srila Prabhupada did was change FORMALITIES in the way initiation was to be conducted in first and second initiations: “The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
BUT Diksa per say, when MADHYAMA adhikari receives is unchanged, as that is NOT formality (see Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality”).
Srila Prabhupada in the July 9th, 1977 ORDER is FORMALITY of HOW 1st and 2nd initiations were to be conducted – and THAT is ALL it was. And THIS was the change in terms of FORMALITY, nothing more.
The INITIATED disciples were to be Srila Prabhupada’s DISCIPLES. How can you have disciples belonging to anyone else? Disciples belong to one who gives discipline. FACTUALLY we are ALL taking – DISCIPLINE – FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books, CDs, Tapes. Common sense!
George A Smith: ….”no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity. Two words from Srila Prabhupada balanced against all of the Veda”
Mahesh: George TWO words that Srila Prabhupada speaks COMES DIRECT FROM KRSNA. Do you UNDERSTAND?
The TWO words Srila Prabhupada speaks are worth FAR FAR FAR MORE then YOUR MENTAL SPECULATIONS ON VEDAS:
Note: Prabhupada: Krsna will tell directly. A devotee always consults Krsna and KRSNA TELLS HIM, “do like this.” NOT FIGURATIVELY.
Srila Prabhupada Interview, July 14, 1976, New York:
Bali-mardana: “In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Krsna tell you that this person should be in charge.
Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified.
Prabhupada: Yes, because a devotee always consults Krsna and He gives order.
Interviewer: It’s a more direct communication.
Prabhupada: Yes. And He gives order.
Ramesvara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Krsna. So if I have some…
Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Krsna as well.
Ramesvara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Krsna has told me.
Prabhupada: No, not necessarily, KRSNA WILL TELL DIRECTLY. A DEVOTEE ALWAYS CONSULTS KRSNA AND KRSNA TELLS HIM, “DO LIKE THIS.” NOT FIGURATIVELY.
Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well?
Prabhupada: Everything. Because a devotee does not do anything without consulting Krsna.”
Note: His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada speaks as Krsna speaks:
When a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the parampara system.
Caitanya-caritamrta Antya 5.71:
“One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). When Ramananda Raya spoke to Pradyumna Misra, Pradyumna Misra could understand that Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary human being. A SPIRITUALLY ADVANCED PERSON WHO ACTS WITH AUTHORITY, AS THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, SPEAKS AS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD DICTATES FROM WITHIN. THUS IT IS NOT HE THAT IS PERSONALLY SPEAKING. When a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the parampara system.”
George A Smith says:
14. March 2015 at 6:36 am
May 28, 1977 Vrindavan, India
Krsna-Balarama Temple
Satsvarupa Goswami: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).
Tamal Krsna Goswami: Is that called Ritvik acarya?
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik. Yes”.
George A Smith : So, these were his instruction to the GBC as a body. They were not instructions for the sum-total of all his disciples to follow.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: George you are going round circles to avoid the Ritvik Order.
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik. Yes”.
This was the MAY 28, 1977 Vrindavan, India Krsna-Balarama Temple. And —-this is CONSISTENT with a FOLLOW-UP in JULY 9th 1977 Ritvik ORDER —- THIS is just TWO MONTHS (MAY 28 TO JULY 9TH 1977). The GBC is a MANAGEMENT body they have to see that the Ritvik Order is FOLLOWED BY THE SOCIETY. ALL Srila Prabhupada Ordered was JULY 9th 1977 Ritvik Order – BAS!
July
Letter to: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
—
Vrindaban
9 July, 1977
To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
Hoping this finds you all well.
Your servant,
Approved: Tamala Krsna Gosvami
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Secretary to Srila Prabhupada
[Srila Prabhupada’s signature appears on the original]
Rocana dasa picturing Srila Prabhupada dead
11. JUNE 2014 BY PRABHUPADA NEWS
(P.S. You never did answer the original question: “Do you agree with Rocan das that Srila Prabhupada is “post-mortem”? Oh well, never mind…)
George A. Smith says:
10. March 2015 at 7:41 am ; ” It didn’t seem right to me, ”
Yes, of course, because you are covering yourself with full of concoctions manufactured in your own mind as it appears from your writing which is subject to four defects.
The simple reason is that you are in denial to accept the written Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada being presented here.
Hope you find it satisfactory.
George A Smith : Rocana dasa picturing Srila Prabhupada dead
11. JUNE 2014 BY PRABHUPADA NEWS
(P.S. You never did answer the original question: “Do you agree with Rocan das that Srila Prabhupada is “post-mortem”? Oh well, never mind…)
Mahesh: the reason the Anti Ritviks want Srila Prabhupada dead and out of the way is because they want to screw money:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
Surya das
You write:
“Dear George, thank you for your reply. With all due respect I found it lacking clarity and logic, and I remain unconvinced.”
Surya das. you are entitled you your own opinion and I am sure that you think that it has merit but you have just lost your bid with me to be regarded as an individual, but in conclusion, I wouldn’t have responded to you at all had not your vision of Goloka Vrndavan as a prison house shown you to be so flippy as to elicit my sympathy. Though you speak learned words you should be careful not to include yourself among those who you mean to fool as to what you actually are, for you will be the one least likely to doubt the credibility of your own presentation of yourself, although you would be the one most benefited who should. But I am not in the business of trying to convince you. I am sorry that I couldn’t help you.
Moving on. Some Rtviks say they are inclined to follow Srila Prabhupadas instructions over the instructions of the Vedic literatures, recognizing that the understanding of the Vedic literature and it’s appropriateness to us or our time or place is beyond us without the intercession of guru – good for that person and I am in agreement with them, just not with any notion that Srila Prabhupada ever instructed that one should seek initiation from a spiritual master who was no longer physically present although some of his statements may lead us to this conclusion.
Where though are the clear instructions on how a disciple should expect to establish a clear line of communication, an active interface between oneself and such a spiritual master who is no longer physically present? More telling still is that we see that for the uttama-adhikaris that life and death do not apparently present to them such a clear dividing line between themselves and others os similar qualification, but where is there in all of Srila Prabhupadas writings any instruction that we should “imitate” such liberated souls? Just the opposite.
If, for argument sake, one accepts that such an interface between oneself and Srila Prabhupada is available simply through the following of his instructions and through Srila Prabhupadas books (as I do), where still are the instructions that this should serve completely in the stead of a living guru and also where are such communications that should have already been transmitted through this methodology to Rtviks everywhere, not to just an isolated few but to everyone of them who is sincerely following Srila Prabhupadas instructions and seeking for guidance on personel and contemporary issues?
Where are the new instructions of a “living” Srila Prabhupada manifesting today, not only to the individual but to the entire Rtvik movement? Or if following his physical disappearance you do not believe that such an active interface is necessary or possible. Where does Srila Prabhupada exaplain that we can so discriminate between Vani and Vapu as to make one of them entirely unneeded?
Even if Rtviks claimed to have existing such an active interface how much faith could someone who is themselves not the recipient of the direct communication be expected to put in it? What, for instance would the Rtvik rank and file be expected to do if word came down from the Rtvik high command (overt or covert) that they had received a communication directly from Srila Prabhupada announcing that one would now only have to chant 8 rounds? If, on the other hand, you received such a communication that you believed came directly from Srila Prabhupada, how would you know that you were not simply imagining, dreaming, or hallucinating that it was real, do you or any of the Rtviks have some established methodology by which you can discern whether such communication was real or just tricks of the mind? Beyond that, even if the objectivity of the occurrence is beyond question to one through table tapping Spiritualist or New Age B.S., how will you tell if what lookS and sounds like Srila Prabhupada IS Srila Prabhupada and not some astral entity or demon such as New Age Channelers get ahold of that ends up granting them limited magical powers but burning them up at both ends? I mean, really prabhus? Would Srila Prabhupada really order you to do something that was so much out of your depth without an adequate and lengthy and continueing explanation to you?
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krsna
Amar Puri says:
14. March 2015 at 7:07 pm
George A. Smith says:
10. March 2015 at 7:41 am ; ” It didn’t seem right to me, ”
Yes, of course, because you are covering yourself with full of concoctions manufactured in your own mind as it appears from your writing which is subject to four defects.
The simple reason is that you are in denial to accept the written Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada being presented here.
Hope you find it satisfactory.
Reply
Apar Puri writes”
“Yes, of course, because you are covering yourself with full of concoctions manufactured in your own mind as it ”
You don’t know that and rather than practically calling me a liar you could hve just simply asked if I was on the levelor politely kept your own counself if you entertained the notion that the experiences that I recounted proved me insane, but you didn’t, instead you did that which brings to mind Matthew 7:6. But I didn’t write that for such creatures but for those who might have similar experiences which they treaure and which systain them.
.
To you Amar:
Thats four “principle” defects, I assure you though that I have a great many more that I have to deal with, but you seem to both forget that Bhrama, youryour confusion, which began with your soul’s misidentification with your material body, is not at an end. That you are still inattentive might be a matter into which your own confusion extends into. I doubt however that anyone reading you is similarly confused. As far as your propensity to cheat – well, mama always said that if I didn’t have anything good to say – As far as the senses go, oh boy, tell me about it, some times Sense Data and Pure Reason cannot even establish it – The Truth, they say, but I knowwhat can and if you wish to observe how that 7of the 10 pramanas that Sri Jiva discusses in his Tattva Sandarbha are dependent uponpratyaksa and anumana and thus also disqualified due to their shortcomings then maybe we can place you nearer to the lead anbd not way back here with the likes of such follan souls as me. Go ahead on my good fellow, don’t wait for me, I’m just part of the mop up crew. Just for the time being and for some inexplicable reason the people at the end seem to be waiting for the people at the front to catch upand pass by them. It gets really really frustrating when you have no trouble at all convincing people to join the Krsna Conscousnessness movement but you don’t have anywhere to send them that you feel can be trusted not to screw them over.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna
Amar Puri says:
14. March 2015 at 7:07 pm
George A. Smith says:
10. March 2015 at 7:41 am ; ” It didn’t seem right to me, ”
Yes, of course, because you are covering yourself with full of concoctions manufactured in your own mind as it appears from your writing which is subject to four defects.
The simple reason is that you are in denial to accept the written Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada being presented here.
Hope you find it satisfactory.
Reply
Hare Krsna, Dear George A. Smith !
I would like to ask you with humility.
What kind of books are you reading (from Srila Prabhupada , from others, etc.) ?
George A. Smith reply to my remarks ;
To you Amar:
Thats four “principle” defects, I assure you though that I have a great many more that I have to deal with, but you seem to both forget that Bhrama, youryour confusion, which began with your soul’s misidentification with your material body, is not at an end. That you are still inattentive might be a matter into which your own confusion extends into. I doubt however that anyone reading you is similarly confused. As far as your propensity to cheat — well, mama always said that if I didn’t have anything good to say — As far as the senses go, oh boy, tell me about it, some times Sense Data and Pure Reason cannot even establish it — The Truth, they say, but I knowwhat can and if you wish to observe how that 7of the 10 pramanas that Sri Jiva discusses in his Tattva Sandarbha are dependent uponpratyaksa and anumana and thus also disqualified due to their shortcomings then maybe we can place you nearer to the lead anbd not way back here with the likes of such follan souls as me. Go ahead on my good fellow, don’t wait for me, I’m just part of the mop up crew. Just for the time being and for some inexplicable reason the people at the end seem to be waiting for the people at the front to catch upand pass by them. It gets really really frustrating when you have no trouble at all convincing people to join the Krsna Conscousnessness movement but you don’t have anywhere to send them that you feel can be trusted not to screw them over.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna
Amar Puri says:
14. March 2015 at 7:07 pm
George A. Smith says:
10. March 2015 at 7:41 am ; ” It didn’t seem right to me, ”
Yes, of course, because you are covering yourself with full of concoctions manufactured in your own mind as it appears from your writing which is subject to four defects.
The simple reason is that you are in denial to accept the written Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada being presented here.
Hope you find it satisfactory.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
George ,what are your pratyaksa and anumana based on what source of Information and experience which are free from four defects ?
I expect your PRATYAKSA answer free from four defects to my above mentioned pratyaksa Question.
I said I felt George A Smith’s writings were illogical as the very first thing he did was twist what I had said about Srila Prabhupada. He created a little straw man and then innocently declared, “You knew Srila Prabhupadas “soul” prabhu? I envy you.” How he got that from what I wrote was/is illogical. This kind of attempted mockery has nothing to do with the facts presented and everything to do with discrediting the author. Bad George.
Then, although failing to answer my very straightforward questions, he again attempted to twist my words around to make it seem like I believe the spiritual world is a prison, (he’s bought this up in both replies!) It’s clear I’m asking a question and not making a statement in this regard. But how could someone as seemingly intelligent as George have misread/misinterpreted my words so grossly to make it seem like I thought the spiritual world is a prison? Straw man arguments, while good at making your opponent look bad, do fail to answer the questions being asked.
Like many before him, (eg; Rocana’s self-titled ‘Defeat of the Ritvik’s’) George comes out guns blazing but when the smoke clears everyone’s still standing and, “Dang’n blast it” they have ammo and they even shoot back!
When George takes my words and twists them, (and now of course the predictable belittling has begun in this latest reply) while remaining UNABLE to give me a straightforward answer, I seriously doubt his position is as solid as he would have us believe. If, after starting a debate you held absolute damning evidence to rebut any and all challenges wouldn’t you just come out and say it,… answer the question,.. and put it to rest once and for all? (When we were kids and played cards and someone wouldn’t show his hand you just knew you had called their bluff
So far in my opinion, (and yes he’s right I am entitled to my opinion, though I didn’t need him to tell me that) I have experienced his so called philosophical defeat to be pretty much smoke and mirrors lacking any evidence from Guru, Sadhu or Sastra (despite being fairly voluminous in content). He says – in a handful of words – that we should not accept Srila Prabhupada’s two words. Since when did we start treating any of Srila Prabhupada’s wordS as “acceptable AND unacceptable”? Now that, IS unacceptable!
Like I said, I think this is an important issue and worth further debate, but as far as George goes my prediction is he will either quietly disappear – perhaps with a departing remark over his shoulder about how he refuses to debate with a low class fellow like myself – or ramp up his attempts to belittle me personally all the while failing to reply my straightforward questions with straightforward answers. These things happened; devotees were initiated by His Divine Grace via a Ritvik priest when Srila Prabhupada was not personally present. I have given George an opportunity to explain his understanding of this, and also to honestly tell us if he has read the entire body of Vedic evidence after making the very public declaration, “no word of the vedas had ever mentioned the Rtviks in such a role or capacity”. I think in mundane politics this talking about everything BUT the answer is called ‘begging the question’ and is an old, tired trick.
Dear Surya das prabhu,
Like so many before him, it’s like casting pearls before swine or milk to a serpent. No debate with argumentative fools!
Yhs.
Well said, Surya Narayana Prabhu. Spoken with candour and more eloquence that I could muster!
bhakta George Smith said:”Where are the new instructions of a “living” Srila Prabhupada manifesting today, not only to the individual but to the entire Rtvik movement? Or if following his physical disappearance you do not believe that such an active interface is necessary or possible. Where does Srila Prabhupada exaplain that we can so discriminate between Vani and Vapu as to make one of them entirely unneeded?
Even if Rtviks claimed to have existing such an active interface how much faith could someone who is themselves not the recipient of the direct communication be expected to put in it? What, for instance would the Rtvik rank and file be expected to do if word came down from the Rtvik high command (overt or covert) that they had received a communication directly from Srila Prabhupada announcing that one would now only have to chant 8 rounds? If, on the other hand, you received such a communication that you believed came directly from Srila Prabhupada, how would you know that you were not simply imagining, dreaming, or hallucinating that it was real, do you or any of the Rtviks have some established methodology by which you can discern whether such communication was real or just tricks of the mind? Beyond that, even if the objectivity of the occurrence is beyond question to one through table tapping Spiritualist or New Age B.S., how will you tell if what lookS and sounds like Srila Prabhupada IS Srila Prabhupada and not some astral entity or demon such as New Age Channelers get ahold of that ends up granting them limited magical powers but burning them up at both ends? I mean, really prabhus? Would Srila Prabhupada really order you to do something that was so much out of your depth without an adequate and lengthy and continueing explanation to you?
All glories to Srila Prabhupada”
This makes a lot of sense to me, thank you prabhu.
y.s. bj
Hare Krsna
Dear Bhakta Jarek Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
You quote the following question, saying it “makes a lot of sense” to you:
“If, on the other hand, you received such a communication that you believed came directly from Srila Prabhupada, how would you know that you were not simply imagining, dreaming, or hallucinating that it was real, do you or any of the Rtviks have some established methodology by which you can discern whether such communication was real or just tricks of the mind?”
Srila Prabhupada has kindly provided us with all the answers and has given us a foolproof way of discriminating what is truth and what is untruth. It’s called “Guru, sadhu and sastra”:
1) “If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether sastra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master, whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person. Sadhu. Similarly sadhu also, whether guru says, ‘Yes, he is sadhu.’ Whether sastra says, ‘Yes, he is sadhu.’ There are three things, sadhu-sastra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you’ll get the right way.”
(Srila Prabhupada room conversation, 7/18/73, London)
2) “Sadhu-sastra-guru: one has to test all spiritual matters according to the instructions of saintly persons, scriptures and the spiritual master. The spiritual master is one who follows the instructions of his predecessors, namely the sadhus, or saintly persons. A bona fide spiritual master does not mention anything not mentioned in the authorized scriptures. Ordinary people have to follow the instructions of sadhu, sastra and guru. Those statements made in the sastras and those made by the bona fide sadhu or guru cannot differ from one another.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.16.1, Purport)
3) “Sadhu sastra, guru vakya, tinete kariya aikya. Spiritual realization can be perfected by three parallel process. Sadhu. Sadhu means saintly persons, who are realized souls, sadhu. And sastra. Sastra means scriptures, authoritative scriptures, Vedic scriptures, sastra. Sadhu, sastra, and guru, a spiritual master. Three parallel line. And if you place your car or vehicle on these three parallel line, your car will go direct to Krsna. Tinete kariya aikya. Just like in the railway line you see two parallel lines. If they are in order, the railway carriages are carried very smoothly to the destination. Here also, there are three parallel lines–sadhu, sastra, guru: saintly person, association of saintly person, acceptance of bona fide spiritual master, and faith in the scriptures. That’s all. Then your carriage will be going nicely, without any disturbance.”
(Srila Prabhupada lecture, 10/18/68, Seattle)
4) “Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya, cittete kariya aikya. One should accept a thing as genuine by studying the words of saintly people, the spiritual master and sastra. The actual center is sastra, the revealed scripture. If a spiritual master does not speak according to revealed scripture, he is not to be accepted. Similarly, if a saintly person does not speak according to the sastra, he is not a saintly person. Sastra is the center for all. Unfortunately, at the present moment, people do not refer to the sastras…”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhyama-lila 20.352, Purport)
Srila Prabhupada taught by example. You’ll notice in all his books, lectures, conversations, and morning walks that Prabhupada continuously quoted from sastra (Vedic scripture) and from previous examples of the lives of sadhus and incarnations of Godhead. Srila Prabhupada always condemned mental speculation or manorathena — riding on the chariot of the mind:
5) “And therefore, mental speculators, they have been condemned. Manorathenasati dhavato bahih (SB 5.18.12). Because they carry on, or they are carried by the chariot of mind, manorathena. Manorathena asati. Manoratha, when you drive on the chariot of mind, you cannot get any fixed idea. Because mind is flickering. Sankalpa-vikalpa. Mind’s business is ‘Accept this, and again reject it.’ So all these speculators are doing. Somebody is putting forward some theory, and after some years he will himself reject or somebody else will reject. So manorathena, by mental speculation, you remain on the material platform. You cannot get any spiritual idea.”
(Srila Prabhupada morning walk, July 9, 1974)
In this way, Srila Prabhupada protected us all from unauthorized mental speculation and cheating, no matter how flowery or fancy the words:
6) “If you do not know, then why do you take the post of teacher? This is our proposition. If you do not know, sit down. It is better not to talk foolish. There is an English proverb: ‘It is better not to talk than to talk foolish.’ If you do not know, then don’t talk. That is nice. What is the use of philosophically foolishly talking this and that and ‘maybe,’ ‘perhaps,’ like that, like that? What is the use of such knowledge?”
(Srila Prabhupada discussion with Syamasundara dasa on Soren Kierkegaard)
The principle of hearing only from those who speak authoritatively with reference to “guru, sadhu, and sastra” is one of the basic or fundamental principles in spiritual life. There is no scope for being fooled by rascals who twist the scriptures or the words of the acaryas. If we follow this principle, then we are safe. Otherwise not.
Hope this helps.
Thank you Balarama Prabhu. George is simply the catalyst for my being able to share with others in the world who may feel oppressed by their spiritual authorities and unable to share their doubts or questions about the current guru system in Prabhupada’s Iskcon. In that sense I have much to thank George for.
Thanks Sudarsana Prabhu. George thinks I’m learned,.. I bet you couldn’t stop laughing when you read that. Anyway let’s see if he can answer my questions. (I hope you are well, it’s been a long time).
Ys, Surya.
Dear Surya Narayana Prabhu. One who understands that Srila Prabhupada as Acharya and only Diksha Guru can save us (by his vani) from this hellish condition, is most learned and rare indeed.
I fear you do me an injustice to think that I would laugh at such a statement describing your good self as such. There is no doubt that there is no greater fool than myself, having succumbed to the poisonous atmosphere (based on envy of Srila Prabhupada) which the farcical, bogus ”guru” imposters have foistered upon ISKCON. FISKCON and Gaudiya Math are ‘full to the brim’ with lost souls as they cannot accept the truly, unique position of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. By Srila Prabhupada’s grace alone we can overcome all obstacles and emerge from the darkness of ignorance.
May His Divine Grace continue to bless you more and more, Prabhu!
Your humble servant (from across the ditch!)
Sudarsana
George writes: “Surya das. you are entitled you your own opinion and I am sure that you think that it has merit but you have just lost your bid with me to be regarded as an individual, but in conclusion, I wouldn’t have responded to you at all had not your vision of Goloka Vrndavan as a prison house shown you to be so flippy as to elicit my sympathy. Though you speak learned words you should be careful not to include yourself among those who you mean to fool as to what you actually are, for you will be the one least likely to doubt the credibility of your own presentation of yourself, although you would be the one most benefited who should. But I am not in the business of trying to convince you. I am sorry that I couldn’t help you.”
Oh please,… your quasi intellectualism and bully boy routine does not intimidate me in the least and only further raises my suspicions that you are out of your depth in this debate. I never once claimed to be learned, this is all happening in your mind! You create what you think I might be and then dispensed advice to the apparition you’ve conjured, all the while dodging the issue of the unanswered questions.
So save your false sympathy and your smarmy little put-downs, and most defiantly keep your ‘wise counsel’ to yourself until you’ve proven you actually have a clue what you’re talking about. You say you are sorry you couldn’t help me but I never asked for your help, I asked for answers.
That you consider Srila Prabhupada’s words as ‘acceptable’ AND ‘unacceptable’, and that you think you know which is which is laughable. Do you really think you can supersede His Divine Grace as the dispenser of absolute knowledge?
(I have many more question regarding the guru issue but perhaps I’ll have to keep looking for someone who can give me actual answers?)
Your not getting it LW, or your being evasive. The point is again that if Srila Prabhupada appeared to you in some dream or vision and gave you an order, how woiuld you know whether or not it was Srila Prabhupada or just some phantasm of your mind commanding you? Your reply is guru, sadhu and shastra as if that answered the question, it doesn’t. The question is whether your perception is of Srila Prabhupada telling you to do something or whether it is not. The sastra cannot answer that question for you, so what can and if your answer is that you do not really know of anything that can how can you accept, even upon a personal level any individual for spiritual master who does not have a direct means of communicating with you that you yourself can be sure of? How can you found a movement based upon this?
Guru, sadhu and sastra is a system of checks and balances, true, but if you cannot be sure that the perrson appearing before you in the guise of Srila Prabhupada IS in fact Srila Prabhupada and if her or it isn’t and happens to know the sastra better than you, such as may be the case if you are dealing with a bhrama-daitya or other demoniac impersonator how is it that you still maintain that your protection has not been compromised? Say this person gives you the order that I already mentioned, for you to chant 8 rounds a day instead of 16? There is nothing in sastra that says that Srila Prabhupada cannot make such an adjustment to your personal spiritual practices or even to the practices of the entite movement (unless you maintain that nothing that Srila Prabhupada established while he was physically present can be changed by him afterwards – in which case your going to have some prtoblems). But what say he gives you an order to kill someone and tells tou that you must do so because that person is a demon? Where in the sastra will it tell you that your spiriritual masters order may be disobeyed or even that demons should not be detroyed?
No, the Rtvik movement was established without being thought out very well by Yasodanandana and then before he knew what was happening it got away from him so a lot of very serious questions and concerns were never brought up or even asked about, the rationale behind this being that lets just get everyone to accept it now and we’ll work out the bugs later -but there are definite bugs and a definite downside to not having a guru who is physically present. Does that invalidate Rtvik as an initiatory system? No. But do you boys and girls know how to handle it? Srila Prabhupada said that there were two kinds of fools and that the best kind of fool was the one who when he didn’t know how to do something refrained from taking any action. The worst kind of fool however was the fool that although he didn’t know what to do still did something.
When I first became acquainted with the Rtviks and went to one of their big meetings at the Masonic lodge near the Culver City temple of New Dwarka, one of the people that spoke talked about a dream of his in which Srila Prabhupada had told him many things. He accepted that this was in fact a communication from Srila Prabhupada, not just to him but to all of us and it was being presented this way. This was completely irresponsioble and I was appallled, furthermore I got the clear impression that they “the rtviks” were grasping as straws, as if they felt that the key missing ingrediant in their presentation was proof of an active interface directly with Srila Prabhupada. Since then I have been expecting them to stage something in Vegas :). Srila Prabhupada has always been present for me in his books but not all people even like to read, they’d rather serve him directly, cook for him, clean for him or lay a garland at his lotus feet and see him smile at them directly. It doesn’t take much, a word, a glance a pat on the head and then he is gone but such a love he fills up your heart with that all the rest of your life you foillow him. Can the Rtviks give them that or do we simply have to listen to more of the crap coming from a lot of you yahoos about how we “gotta” or we’re gonna get it?
Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.3 — June 16, 1968, Montreal
Evening Darsana — August 10, 1976, Tehran
Letter to: Linda — Los Angeles 19 February, 1970
Srila Prabhupada is still present in his books:
(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)
While Prabhupada’s vani is present, Srila Prabhupada is present.
(CC (1975 Ed) Adi 1.35 )
George A Smith says:
” The point is again that if Srila Prabhupada appeared to you in some dream or vision and gave you an order, how woiuld you know whether or not it was Srila Prabhupada or just some phantasm of your mind commanding you?
Then, he answers in a question himself saying ;
” The question is whether your perception is of Srila Prabhupada telling you to do something or whether it is not. ”
That is exactly where the problem is with our Dear George A Smith ;
” Iccha – dvesa samuttena “… BG.7.27
If the PERCEPTION i.e. consciousness of the person is of Srila Prabhupada duly engaged in His Divine Grace mission selflessly, then, the person executes the Order of Srila Prabhupada as he perceives it based on the Iccha which of course corresponds with the Guru, Sadhu and Shastras.
If it is not, only having dvesa, then the PERCEPTION is personally motivated engaging externally in the Spiritual activities as it may exhibit and may not correspond with the Guru, Sadhu and Shastras.
Give up your very own, Iccha – dvesa, accepting and rejecting what and how you perceive the simple Ritvik Instructions.
Accept simply Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik Instructions without any interpretation.
George A Smith writes further ; ” Srila Prabhupada has always been present for me in his books but not all people even like to read, they’d rather serve him directly, ”
George, if it is TRUE what you say ; ” ” Srila Prabhupada has always been present for me in his books… ”
That is your ICCHA, acceptance.
Isn’t it George ?
But the same time you show ” devsa ” in your writing saying ;
” but not all people even like to read, they’d rather serve him directly, ”
Why it does bother you ?
Why are you creating ” devsa ” rejecting to your acceptance ?
What kind of messages you are presenting ?
What kind of DUPLICITY is this ?
Why are you CONTRADICTING to yourself ?
Hope you do answer these questions, George.
Hare Krishna, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It’s been twenty days now, (longer than the battle of Kureksetra) since I asked George some straightforward questions based on the initiation process set up by His Divine Grace, Srila Prabhupada.
George A Smith’s silence is a deafening roar of confirmation that even the staunchest critics of these Ritvik folk still cannot answer very basic, fundamental questions.
My challenge stands, and I invite anyone out there to please try to give me straightforward answers to my straightforward questions.
(As for George, well I’ll let him have the last word, “Though you speak learned words you should be careful not to include yourself among those who you mean to fool.”)
Surya Narayana das – New Zealand mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Surya
Yes, I have read all of the Vedic literatures according to Shastra. Please however do not expect me to quote them from memory. As to your wishful thinking that I would depart this realm with barely a backward glance and a whimper, you forget that not everyone is like you.
Claiming authority where none can be either provided or found by those either examining your arguments or putting them forward for so many years is usually considered evidence against the acceptance of such an argument. If you were perhaps a bit more in touch with the actual spokespeople of your movement they would have acquainted you with this fact which is the very reason that they do not push the argument from such a perspective. This has already been pretty much recognized and ace[ted by both parties for a considerable time now and would certainly not hinge upon whether George A. Smith or anyone had read all of the Vedic literatures and never found it. But let me accept what Shastra says about this and that I therefore have stidied all the Vedic literatures, still it would not be my responsibility to provide shastric proof against the acceptance of your claims but YOUR responsibiliyu to provide shastric evidence in support of them.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance) is a term that you, as a logician should be familiar with Surya das and yet sucg familiarity doesn’t seem to have stopped ypu from attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of our less logicically acquainted audience to the fact that it has never been the responsibility of the anti Rtviks to provide opposing shastric evidence or but has always been the responsibility of the Rtviks to ptovide Shastric evidence in support og their argument.
In an American courtroom or even in conventional debate, this wpuld be different, but even in the later the proposing team in a debate round is usually assumed to have the burden of proof, which means that if the team fails to prove the proposition to the satisfaction of the judge, the opposition wins. In a sense, the opposition team’s case is assumed true until proven false. Though the burden of proof can sometimes be shifted; for example, in some forms of debate, the proposing team can shift the burden of proof to the opposing team by presenting a prima facie case that would, in the absence of refutation, be sufficient to affirm the proposition. Still, the higher burden generally rests with the proposing team, which means that only the opposition is in a position to make an accusation of argumentum ad ignorantiam with respect to proving the proposition. And again this is not an American courtroom or a conventional debate.
Since on the one hand you seek to convince your audience that you are a logician but on the other, very two facedly to my mind, attempt to use fallacious reasoning to win them over to your side how is it that you cannot realize that yot vanity and egoism over what they think of you here on these forums has cost you a true prize, your honor and integrity?
Amar writes
George, if it is TRUE what you say ; ” ” Srila Prabhupada has always been present for me in his books… ”
That is your ICCHA, acceptance.
Isn’t it George ?
But the same time you show ” devsa ” in your writing saying ;
” but not all people even like to read, they’d rather serve him directly, ”
Why it does bother you ?
Why are you creating ” devsa ” rejecting to your acceptance ?
What kind of messages you are presenting ?
What kind of DUPLICITY is this ?
Why are you CONTRADICTING to yourself ?
Hope you do answer these questions, George.
Hare Krishna, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar
There are different types of human beings. Many people cannot even read and, even among those who can read I see through your words that some cannot read with comprehension – I
Cut to the chase you want to claim that Srila Prabhupada is ordering the entire Krsna Consciousness movement that from here on in that they can only have relationship with spiritual master through a book? Then I have some words for you that you might comprehend but unfortunately they are unprintable.
George A Smith says ;
Amar
There are different types of human beings. Many people cannot even read and, even among those who can read I see through your words that some cannot read with comprehension — I
Cut to the chase you want to claim that Srila Prabhupada is ordering the entire Krsna Consciousness movement that from here on in that they can only have relationship with spiritual master through a book? Then I have some words for you that you might comprehend but unfortunately they are unprintable.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
From your above said message it appears that you are hiding behind your false EGO because you represent in your writing DUPLICITY. That is why I simply ask you the questions based on your very own writing which speaks for itself as to who you are, what you are and why you are the way you are representing yourself.
Is that NOT TRUE, George. ?
You can hide beneath your false ego for so long as you wish by answering irrelevantly , but you have been got caught red handed when you are questioned straight forward from your very own contradictory writings to which you have failed miserably to address them.
What does it say and prove to you, George ?
Srila Prabhupada says that having association with the Spiritual Master’s VANI is as good as having relationship with the VAPU while VAPU remains absence.
Is that not Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER, George ?
Very good Hugh
You answer the question as to the veravity of such things as dreams and then return us to Srila Prabhupadas books, which would them, I assume, be the final arvitrator on the legitamacy of your dream state communication. But that still allows for intrprertation and a pile up of questions in regards to contemporary issues. There is however an area of investigation that may become fruitful in this regard in the words of Srila Prabhupada that you quote here:
Guest (2): Are we to take Krsna conscious dreams seriously or some illusion?
Prabhupada: Well, that depends on your particular position, you see. Sometimes a Krsna conscious persons dreams very seriously. Sometimes communication is there by dreams. Yes?
“Dreaming very seriously” is a mystic yoga technique that can be learned and taught.
Dear Marica
One morning when I was considering what books I might need to read to supplement my studies I decided that I’
d have a try at letting Srila Prabhupada answer that question for me so I asked that question silently and then opemed up Bhagavad Gita to a random page, set my finger down on a random place and read Srila Prabhupadas reply to me, which was “You need only to read this book.”
In the tradition that I came into the Krsna consciousness movement from, such books as Srila Prabhupadas are considred to be “Class A” which means quite a number of things, the most important of which is that they are divive. They are sentient. They are communicated and they are communicvated and they are not to be edited, not a jot, not a line.
I do not read sop much any more as I am almost blind but I have read considerably and have familiarity with quite a panorama of diverse literatures so if you tell me in particular your area of interest I may better direct you.
Haribol prabhu
George please read – thanks!
750302BA.ATL Lectures
So he wanted this, and he is not… It is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. He is seeing. I never feel that I am alone. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means… Practically, just like a vagabond I came. But I had full faith that “My Guru Maharaja is with me.” I never lost this faith, and that is fact. There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means this physical body. SO VANI IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE VAPUH. VAPUH WILL BE FINISHED. THIS IS MATERIAL BODY. IT WILL BE FINISHED. THAT IS THE NATURE. BUT IF WE KEEP TO THE VANI, TO THE WORDS OF SPIRITUAL MASTER, THEN WE REMAIN VERY FIXED UP. It doesn’t matter. Just like Bhagavad-gita. It was spoken five thousand years ago. But if you keep to the words of Krsna, then it is always fresh and guiding. Not that because Arjuna personally listened to Krsna about the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, therefore he knew it. That is not the fact. If you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then you should know that Krsna is present before you in His words in the Bhagavad-gita. This is called spiritual realization. It is not mundane historical incidences. If we keep…
evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha (mahata)
yogo nastah parantapa
If you don’t keep in touch with the original link, then it will be lost. And if you keep touch with the original link, then you are directly hearing Krsna. SIMILARLY, KRSNA AND KRSNA’S REPRESENTATIVE, SPIRITUAL MASTER, IF YOU KEEP ALWAYS INTACT, IN LINK WITH THE WORDS AND INSTRUCTION OF THE SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES, THEN YOU ARE ALWAYS FRESH. THIS IS SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.
SB 3.31.48 P Lord Kapila’ s Instructions on the Movements of the Living Entities
…. it is described here that ONE HAS TO ASSOCIATE WITH LIBERATED PERSONS NOT DIRECTLY, PHYSICALLY, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC, THE PROBLEMS OF LIFE.
710818SB.LON Lectures
Prabhupada: JUST FOLLOW HIS ORDER. SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALONG WITH YOU BY HIS WORDS. Just like my spiritual master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words.
67-10-03.Nan Letter: Nandarani, Krsna Devi, Subala, Uddhava
Dayananda, Nandarani and Uddhava first went to L.A. to open this branch & in the absence of Dayananda, Subala and Krishna devi have come to help. Whenever there is new branch of our society for Krishna Consciousness I become very very happy, & my blessings in heart and soul are with you. I went to your country for spreading this information of Krishna Consciousness & you are helping me in my mission ALTHOUGH I AM NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT THERE BUT SPIRITUALLY I AM ALWAYS WITH YOU.
69-08-17. Letter: Govinda
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated August 9th, 1969. In the meantime I have sent one tape to Gaurasundara. Perhaps you might have received it, and if it is all right, then I can send you many other tapes, similarly stereoed. From the description of your letter I understand that Hawaii is good field for our preaching work. The hippies are actually immediate candidates for our Krishna Consciousness. We pray to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, Your Incarnation is to claim the most fallen souls.” So in this age of Kali almost everyone is dangerously fallen, and the hippies appear to be still more greater fallen. Besides that, from their behavior it appears they like this movement. This is a very good sign. Your description of that Yogi Sai, that is also little hopeful. He is reading Bhagavad-gita and quoting some lines. So you are very intelligent; you can tackle these people very nicely, assisted by your good husband and the other boys and girls. YOU WRITE THAT YOU HAVE DESIRE TO AVAIL OF MY ASSOCIATION AGAIN, BUT WHY DO YOU FORGET THAT YOU ARE ALWAYS IN ASSOCIATION WITH ME? WHEN YOU ARE HELPING MY MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES I AM ALWAYS THINKING OF YOU AND YOU ARE ALWAYS THINKING OF ME. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION. Just like I always think of my Guru Maharaja every moment, although He is not physically present, and because I am trying to serve Him to my best capacity, I am sure He is helping me by His spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so important as preceptorial association.
750721mw.sf Conversations
Narayana: So those disciples who don’t have opportunity to see you or speak with you…
Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don’t see his body, you take his word, vani.
Narayana: But how do they know they’re pleasing you, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased?
Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we’ll do that.
Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. THIS IS VANI. EVEN THE GURU IS NOT PHYSICALLY PRESENT, IF YOU FOLLOW THE VANI, THEN YOU ARE GETTING HELP.
Sudama: So there’s no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.
Prabhupada: No. Cakhu-dan dilo jei… What is that, next one?
Sudama: Cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.
Prabhupada: JANME JANME PRABHU SEI. SO WHERE THERE IS SEPARATION? WHO HAS OPENED YOUR EYES, HE IS BIRTH AFTER BIRTH YOUR PRABHU.
770714r2.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: I SHALL REMAIN YOUR PERSONAL GUIDANCE, PHYSICALLY PRESENT OR NOT PHYSICALLY, AS I AM GETTING PERSONAL GUIDANCE FROM MY GURU MAHARAJA.
690113LE.LA Lectures
” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? YES. IN FORM AS WELL AS IN TEACHINGS. TO CARRY OUT THE TEACHINGS OF GURU IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN TO WORSHIP THE FORM, BUT NONE OF THEM SHOULD BE NEGLECTED. FORM IS CALLED VAPU AND TEACHINGS IS CALLED VANI. BOTH SHOULD BE WORSHIPED. VANI IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN VAPU
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
73-12-25.Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. THERE IS NO NEED WHATSOEVER FOR ANY OUTSIDE INSTRUCTION.
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
I am pleased to hear that you are chanting 16 rounds daily and reading my books regularly and following the four rules. IN MY BOOKS THE PHILOSOPHY OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS IS EXPLAINED FULLY SO IF THERE IS ANYTHING WHICH YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, THEN YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO READ AGAIN AND AGAIN. BY READING DAILY THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.
75-09-18. Letter: Babhru, Satyaki
PLEASE CONTINUE READING MY BOOKS SERIOUSLY AND EVERYTHING WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU.
74-11-22. Letter: Hugo Salemon
So far your worship of Lord Jagannatha in your home and your becoming initiated. It is alright provided you have the recommendation of the temple president. I am very glad to see that such a young boy as yourself you are taking serious interest in this Krishna Consciousness Movement. Please continue in this way Our process is something universal. It cannot be checked by any means. Anyone in any place, in any country can chant Hare Krishna. If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS YOU SHOULD ALWAYS READ MY BOOKS DAILY AND ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED AND YOU WILL HAVE A FIRM BASIS OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS. IN THIS WAY YOUR LIFE WILL BE PERFECT.
75-11-15. Letter: Janajanmadhih
So, if you are strong enough to preach Krsna consciousness there, that is very good; that as long as you chant your 16 rounds and follow the four regulative principles, then you will get the strength. THE PROCESS IS THAT YOU SHOULD MEMORIZE THE PURPORTS OF MY BOOKS AND THEN SPEAK THEM IN YOUR OWN WORDS. DO NOT ADULTERATE OR CHANGE ANYTHING. THEN YOU WILL BE THE PERFECT PREACHER. You should also distribute our books as far as possible. If you do this sincerely, then you will be successful.
Note:If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Krsna Consciousness Society, one can keep direct company with the spiritual master,
Madhya 19.157 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami
IF ONE THINKS THAT THERE ARE MANY PSEUDO DEVOTEES OR NONDEVOTEES IN THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS SOCIETY, ONE CAN KEEP DIRECT COMPANY WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master. However, unless one follows the spiritual master’s instructions and the regulative principles governing chanting and hearing the holy name of the Lord, one cannot become a pure devotee. By one’s mental concoctions, one falls down. By associating with nondevotees, one breaks the regulative principles and is thereby lost. In the Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Gosvami, it is said:
atyaharah prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
jana-sangas ca laulyam ca
sadbhir bhaktir vinasyati
Madhya 19.157 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami
“One’s devotional service is spoiled when he becomes too entangled in the following six activities: (1) eating more than necessary or collecting more funds than required, (2) overendeavoring for mundane things that are very difficult to attain, (3) talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters, (4) practicing the scriptural rules and regulations only for the sake of following them and not for the sake of spiritual advancement, or rejecting the rules and regulations of the scriptures and working independently or whimsically, (5) associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna consciousness, and (6) being greedy for mundane achievements.”
modes of nature. Karanam guna-sangah asya sad-asad-janma-yonisu.
Note: you can DIRECTLY associate with Srila Prabhupada by reading his books:
721020ND.VRN Lectures
But in this life, if we develop Krsna consciousness by association of devotees… As Narottama dasa Thakura has sung, tandera carana-sevi-bhakta-sane vasa. One’s aim of life should be to serve the acaryas. Acarya upasanam. So our acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, the sri-rupa sanatana bhatta-raghunatha, sri-jiva gopala-bhatta dasa-raghunatha, the Six Gosvamins, and if we associate with them… THIS BOOK, NECTAR OF DEVOTION, BHAKTI-RASAMRTA-SINDHU, IF YOU READ REGULARLY, TRY TO UNDERSTAND, THIS MEANS YOU ARE ASSOCIATING WITH SRILA RUPA GOSVAMI DIRECTLY. AND IF YOU ACT ACCORDINGLY, THEN YOU ARE SERVING THEIR LOTUS FEET. TANDERA CARANA-SEVI-BHAKTA-SANE VASA.
“Srila Prabhupada says that having association with the Spiritual Master’s VANI is as good as having relationship with the VAPU while VAPU remains absence.
Is that not Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER, George ?”
No, it is not, that is Srila Prabhupada helping us, helping us to see things philosophically, in such a way that you can cheer yourself up a bit again by reading or hearing it when you are missing your spiritual master so much that it hurts.
Otherwise it proposes a temporaey solution to a problem that even then that Srila Prabhupada assured would not always be with us. It is an adjustment to time, place and circumstances. When the situation changes however and Krsnas pure devotees become available what does one say? ” Oh no, Srila Prabhjupada books only, you cannot initiate” Then we would be discriminating between the two vani and vapu and rejecting a pure devotee of Krsnas right to initiate based upon our discrimination and only a person with insufficient understanding would think that Srila Prabhupada would order this. Krsna consciousness is meant to be progressive you know? It isn’t that for years and years you follow and have nothing to show. Besides those disciples of his who actually loved him (and there were plenty) there should be others now, the children of his disciples children. Srila Prabhupada sais that some of them would be born pure devotees, he didn’t say how many would be borne premature, hooked on drugs or with hardly a chace to survive and it seems that with all that either the Rtviks or ISKCON cares that their already dead and buries, or better still in their eyes – that they never existed at all never mind that Srila Prabhupada said that they did. To imagine that Srila Prabhupada had no place for them as initiating gurus within Krsna consciousness is nuts and offensive and a diservice to Srila Pabhupada
Dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu you are not just casting pearls to the ‘swine’ but the, ‘treasure house’ also.
What George (Dhritarastra) Smith is saying is that we should NOT follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions directly but follow “George’s” interpretation of them all the while ‘pining’ and ‘wimpering’ like some little puppy-dog for the “vapu” of “a virtual multitude of pure devotees” that have “succeeded” Srila Prabhupada!
George would have to be the saddest most deluded individual ever to visit this site!
Daso smi
Sudarsana
Dear George,
WHY in your every writing again and again you accept and reject simultaneously as I pointed out in my previous comments to which you have miserably failed to address the questions I have raised from your contradictory writing ?
Do you read and understand it before you send it for publishing, George ?
Have you read Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions with rapt attention so that you may get the answer what you are questioning ?
Do you understand that as long as Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions remains available on this Planet Earth, ALL the Pure devotees in the present and future shall continue to follow the ORDER of HDG. Srila Prabhupada ?
WHY ? Because Srila Prabhupada Instructions are present.
Do you get it ?
Do you accept that ONLY those who are IMPURE pretending to be so called pure devotees personally motivated are TWISTING and TURNING the ORDER of Srila Prabhupada to best suit their respective individual need for gratification in a guru position ?
WHY the Enlightened One the Pure Devotees will refuse and reject the present ORDER of the Sampardaya Acharaya Srila Prabhupada while His Instructions are easily available in TACT ?
Would that not be against the Shastras, Sadhu and Guru, NOT to follow the present Acharaya Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER while His VANI – ORDER remains available in TACT ?
If you are intelligent enough, George, then, please answer each and every one of these questions I put forth to you in this public forum.
This is your last chance to make your point FINAL by answering the questions or ACCEPT simply Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions As IT Is which needs no interpretations.
Now my humble request to you is that please get out of the mirage of ACCEPTING – REJECTING and begin to accept Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as He instructs and ORDER to his disciples.
Otherwise, you may remain hallucinated under the mirage of Accepting and Rejecting under the protective cover of your FALSE EGO for so long as you wish because your every writing is CONTRADICTORY which explains the platform you are situated.
Hope it meets you well, Dear George.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu this man George (Dhritarastra) Smith is total waste of time. Srila Prabhupada’s quotes are for those who are for the REAL followers of Srila Prabhupada who accept His Divine Grace’s Ritvik Order as Per July 9th 1977.
Since George(Dhritarastra) Smith believes in GBC voted in BOGUS Conditioned soul “gurus” he should PROVE go get initiated by them – AND kiss their bum. Be happy George.
Haribol Prabhus. I wasn’t going to comment any further on this thread, but because I tried hard to reach out to this man in spiritual friendship only to be called an “ass” etc., I’ll finish up with a few concluding thoughts.
A conceited man went to seek out a Zen master. When he finally found one, he asked the master to teach him the true meaning of life. The master agreed, but first he insisted on serving the man a cup of tea. As the master kept pouring the tea, the cup ran over and was spilling everywhere. The puffed up man shouted “Stop, the cup is full.’ The master replied, “So are you.”
Or as the old saying goes, “There is none so blind as those who will not see.”
Thanks to one and all for taking so much time to preach on behalf of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. I’ve learned much from each of you and I’m inspired by your conviction and determination to serve the words of the bona fide Spiritual Master, Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh Raja Prabhu, thank you for all the relevant quotes. I use them in my own preaching to those who have a humble heart and they are effective. Those who are honest and sincere will open their hearts to Prabhupada and all the answers will be revealed from within, by the grace of Guru and Krsna combined. But those who have read — or claim to have read — all the Vedas and still refuse to accept the simple and clear instructions of the Acarya are lost.
“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”
Jaya Prabhupada!
“As Caitanya Mahaprabhu certified the illiterate brahmana who was reading Bhagavad-gita in Ranganatha temple… You know the story..”
All the big big brahmanas were criticizing and making fun of him. But..
“Then immediately, Caitanya Mahaprabhu embraced him, that “You are… Your reading of Bhagavad-gita is perfect. Because you have understood the essence of the Bhagavad-gita.”
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