*** see updated version “Important Articles” ***
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?page_id=21172
Crucial articles, documents and perspectives that have either been suppressed by the authorities, or altogether ignored by the mainstream Vaishnava media.
Iskcon and the Guru Issue
Part 1 – The Hare Krishna Movement
Part 2 – What is the Guru Issue?
Part 3 – The Zonal Acarya System vs. The New Guru System
Part 4 – The Sad History of the “Zonal-Acharyas”
Part 5 – Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
Part 6 – The Great Guru Hoax of Iskcon
Part 7 – The Truth about “ISKCON”
Part 8 – The Hidden History of ISKCON”
Part 9 – 27 Years of Deception
Part 10 – Prabhupada’s ISKCON ‘How It Was Destroyed’
Part 11 – What Happened to the Hare Krishnas?
Part 12 – ISKCON Devotees Forbidden To Understand Srila Prabhupada?
Part 13 – Shadow ISKCON or the True ISKCON? Take Your Pick
Part 14 – Who Is Representing Srila Prabhupada Now?
Part 15 – ISKCON – The Human Tragedy
Part 16 – The Collective Cover-ups of ISKCON
Part 17 – Iskcon’s Eleven Bogus “Successor Acaryas”
Part 18 – Tamal Krishna Goswami, the Creator and Founder of Iskcon’s bogus guru system
Part 19 – Satswarupa das Goswami “Planting the Weed”
I have come thanks to Iskcon to be interested in this Bhakti-yoga, I have never been interested in being initiated by so-called acharyas because that isn’t the process of Bhakti-yoga.This is the process as described in Srila Prabhupada’s books: one hears about Krsna’s devotees Prem for him, and by this hearing which is the result of ajnata-sukrti or causeless mercy, a soul develops a desire to also have love for Krsna. This is the start.
The activities Reading, chanting, offering obeisances etc fall into three categories of pious activities Bhaktyunmukhi-sukrti, Bhogonmukhi-sukrti, moksonmukhi-sukrti, bhaktyunmukhi sukrti is chanting etc aimed at attaining prem and the result from this is pure sadhu-sanga, The other to forms of sadhana bhogonmukhi an moksonmukhi sukrti are activities aimed ar material enjoyment and liberation, karma and jnana yoga. Amongst all of the devotees we can see these three practitioners chanting nam-aparadha nam abhasa and very rarely suddha-nam. All around us they are paying there obeisances, offering arati, giving class, distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books etc… But what is there motivation? If they are seeking liberation, material enjoyment? then they are performing ,not bhakti-yoga but karma and jnana yoga and they will get material opulence or liberation in there different forms.
Those who Have come to the point were they have a desire to love Krsna and who are performing saddhana for this purpose will attain pure sadhu-sanga and from that point due to the association of such a pure devotee ones “DEVOTIONAL saddhana” begins. Those who want something else get something else, Bogus acharya’s etc…so many varieties. This is the age old process, and it is eternal. By constantly hearing about krsna’s devotee’s, via
‘the pure vaisnava’s literatures” or an “actual devotee” we develope a desire to achieve this prem and with this motivation and our performance of Saddhana we will very soon come in contact with the representative of Mahaprabhu. While we are desiring moksa and bhoga we are chanting Nam-aparadha, anyway the cheaters get cheated, those who want something cheap get it. Rtvik is not the process, its a plaster to cover up the real problem. Our movement is full of Karmis an jnanis and giving them rtvik is fine but until they come to the level of nam abhasa they will not get what they need to attain the highest goal “Krsna Prem” ASSOCIATION WITH A PURE DEVOTEE” and thus suddha-nam. Those trying to associate with Srila Prabhupada while still in the modes, with their maya coloured spectacles are nondifferent from those chanting nam-aparadha and desiring sense enjoyment etc… they will not achieve krsna prem. That is not association with a pure devotte but with the contaminated mind only. We don’t simply chose to associate with an uttama bhagavat we have to become qualified by the hearing process then the desireing process. By hearing our desires become sattvic and by cultivating knoledge we realise prem is the topmost and develope a desire to love krsna. At that point Krsna’s pure devotee turns up. Not a book, the book bhagavat is the impetus and one who takes shelter in the book bhagavat will hear, in this hearing process all other forms of sadhana are present. If one simply worships the bhagavatam without the right motivation he may end up like sisupala.All the activities of vaidhi bhakti are all auspicious and result in all auspiciousness but there are different levels and forms of aspiciousness. For instance the Lords benedictions are all auspicious but we are after the benediction of PREMA. And in Lord Caitanya’s line we are aspiring for the topmost love of God. My point among other things is Rtvik is not the start or end of Bhakti-yoga Being initiated by Srila Prabhupada is not the gaol, look at his disciples? Following Srila Prabhupada is the goal, and even though he is an eternally liberated resident of Vrndavan He lead by example and took initiation from guru present in this realm.Srila Prabhupada is present but who of you can be chastised by him? who is pure enough to take his chastisement? Who is not cheating? when Srila Prabhupada was here in flesh no’one could escape his attention, now he and all the previous acharyas are present in the form of the pure devotee and to know who that form is, one has to practice the process of bhaki-yoga as described above. One may get initiated rtvic or otherwise but only by the above process will we make advancement toward the true highest goal, prema. Those who have no faith in this mystical process manifacture an concoct all many of maya like the christians who say simply believing will get them to heaven,Philosophy is nothing without religion, without following the prescribed methods its simply fanatisism. Jaya Srila Prabhupada Jaya The Previous Acharyas jaya the pure devotee.
Srila Narayana Swami: “Ritviks simply perform fire sacrifices (yajnas), take some payment (daksina), and then depart.”
There is a common misunderstanding about what is ritvik. Ritvik means “on behalf of”. Prabhupada nowhere says new bhaktas should be left to their own devices without attendance.
When searching “under the care of” in Vedabase we find that Lord Caitanya always entrusted new devotees under the care of senior Vaishnavas. Spiritual life means to never live according one’s own whims but instead work under superior authority.
Prabhupada’s system of management is that there are GBCs and Templepresidents under whose care devotees are trained and engaged in devotional activities. When Prabhupada was physically present his disciples worked under exact same management. Temple commander, Temple president, GBC. All devotees were asked to study Prabhupada’s books because Prabhupada is fully present in his books.
Prabhupada: “If you continue in this way being very much determined to achieve success in this lifetime, following all the rules, chanting at least 16 rounds, and reading my books, then all of your desires to advance in Krishna Consciousness will be fulfilled and you will surely attain spiritual perfection and be able to go Back to Godhead, very soon.”
“Regarding utilizing intelligence in devotional service, intelligence should be confirmed by the Spiritual Master. Therefore we accept the Spiritual Master for guidance. You should not depend on your own intelligence. Just like a child requires a parent to tell him the correct thing to do, similarly, a strict disciple should always use his intelligence in conformity with the instructions of the Spiritual Master.”
“In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.”
Lord Caitanya didn’t entrust souls into senior “meaning advanced in years” but those advanced in bhakti, When Srila Prabhupada left His GBC were neophytes as evidenced by their behavior and offences, If they had have followed the process and become “qualified” and not avoided the result “association with advanced devotee’s” they would have been able to better carry out His divine graces desire, madhya 22-83 “The root cause of devotional service is association with advanced devotees even when dormant love awakens association is most essential”. Prabhupada is fully present in his books? Yes, just like Krsna is present in his name, But for those committing nam-aparadha the result is not realised, the same with Srila Prabhupada’s books. Book aparadha. Guru aparadha.
Prabhupada: “If you continue in this way being very much determined to achieve success in this lifetime, following all the rules, chanting at least 16 rounds, and reading my books, then all of your desires to advance in Krishna Consciousness will be fulfilled and you will surely attain spiritual perfection and be able to go Back to Godhead, very soon.”
as stated by Srila Prabhupada here, Your desires Have to be: To advance in Krsna consciousness. which refers to Being conscious of Krsna and krsna’s desires and wanting to fulfill them and serve him in one of His Five loving relationships, not advancing to be the Temple president etc…and how do we get this desire to serv Krsna in the first place? “hearing and chanting” and this is what Iskcon is about, distributing books and the holy name so people can hear, become attracted to Pure devotional service, and thus develop the adhikar to attract krsna in the form of His representative the pure devotee. If everyone is hearing chanting 16 rounds, reading, but only with a desire to gain liberation, gain control, get position etc…. then the result will be no Devotee association. These acharyas seem to have never had a desire to attain love for krsna, but to “be” Srila Prabhupada,or get something etc… so they probably attracted those who also wanted to enjoy or attain liberation and so thats what we have a society of predominantly Karmi-yogi and jnani-yogis. The advanced souls you generally will find on the outskirts avoiding the nam-aparadhis.
This is why Bhaktisiddhanta maharaja and Srila Prabhupada never revealed a successor Acharya, because the acharya is self effulgent and to who is he self effulgent? To those who are eligible to those with the sukrti. The two mentioned acharya’s in these cases never revealed an acharya because there is no need. There is however a bonafide process and we should know what the goal of that process is, its Pure sadhu sanga. Your idea that the sadhu-sanga refered to in madhya lila 22-83 is Prabhupada himself in the form of his books, instructions, etc… is not possible in practice for the conditioned soul who is prone to cheat commit mistakes etc and in those books themselves the example is that the person bhagavat is the prominent form that manifests to enlighten and guide the disciple not the book bhagavat, the book bhagavat leads to the devotee bhagavat. Anyway Rtviks I can see are convinced of there beliefs just like the iskcon GBCs who is right wont be decided by my limited arguing Im just inspired to share a little we will see what is the right process. I am attracted to tradition and traditionally the diksa and siksa guru are physically present to guide and chastise and direct the disciple he’s not left to the mercy of speculating conditioned souls or his own interpretations. like you said intelligence should be confirmed by the Spiritual Master and the true spiritual master, is a master of the spirit , Krsna’s devotee is the master of the spirit even Krsna Himself is subordinate to the love of His devotee.
“In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.”
“will develop” this is fact, we will learn these secrets of success, Madhya lila 22-83 once our spiritual life has developed we will become eligible to associate with one of Krsna’s eternal associates if not in this life then the next but that is the process.
Right, Prabhupada followed the example of his guru and did not appoint any successor. At one point around 1972 Srila Prabhupada instructed the election of ISKCON leaders –
http://www.iskcon-dom.com/
Election of leaders is required when there is too much corruption going on. This is the case in material society and this was also the case already within ISKCON when Prabhupada was physically present.
Leaders disappeared with temple laxmi, leaders deviated from their duties, leaders fell down from 4regs. All this happened already from the very beginning of global ISKCON. In fact it happened so severely that communities lost faith.
Therefore Prabhupada wanted temple communities to elect their leaders with a sufficient time limit. When a leader, TP, GBC, Temple commander, turns out to be unqualified he/she is voted out of office. Not that unqualified people remain in office.
Those who report a positive outcome will be re-elected. So this is all common sense. Since Vaishnava institutions are non-profit-making organisation there has to be transparency in book keeping, etc etc.
Why people always say ritviks are fanatics? Present your living guru and we can discuss. So far nobody presented a living guru who is authorized bona fide, uttama adikari, self-effulgent performance, above suspicion to fall down.
This Is same as above only edited a bit better.
Present your living guru and we can discuss? what is this request? show me god and I will believe? as I mentioned above their is a process.That process is described in the books and I’ve tried to explain this as above. Rtvik is fanatical because It prescribes an aspect “reading the books” or bhaktyunmukhi sukrti as the final goal.
But we will see aye, Iskcon is already rtvik, If you talk about guru they preach the same thing IRM is preaching and other rtviks as well and this is the problem, they have no living authority to beat them when they misbehave. They are now preaching all manner of things in the so-called name of preaching,
And a neophyte devotee has no protection , he is easily convince, swayed, so they jump from philosophy to philosophy, fortunately we have the books of the likes of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and the previous acharyas to compare to. Rupa goswami is rupa manjari! who can argue with his philosophy?. Pretending to adore and praise Srila Prabhupada they have separated him by elevating him above the previous acharya’s but only so they can manipulate His philosophy to serve themselves,
They have been doing it since He departed to nitya-lila. Rtvik is perfect, anyone with book knowledge can now lead and lord it over under the guise of representing the acharya. The only real representative of the acharya is the pure devotee and the process to see who that is, is plainly outlined in chapter 22 madhya lila otherwise yea we will be cheated by or own selves we are conditioned to rebel and deviate.
With our conditioning and aparadha we will always be cheated even in the association of an acharya, not by those outside us but our very selves. Rtvik is a good way to ignore the real issue “we are adverse to serving the Lord” and have free will, as we have seen unless we address this even the personal association of God will not help us.Duryodana associated with god. We want a quick fix so we concoct “just read the books and a miracle will happen” it sure will, but not the way most people think.
The Christians are like this to, fanatics, thinking simply belief is all it takes, why do they ignore the process given, they continue to sin on the strength of there belief! its aparadha, knowingly committing offences on the strength of the holy name. those who chant nam with offenses but are unaware of there offences chant Nam-abhasa, abhasa means, like shadow, they are soon put into the association of devotee’s. Those who chant the holy name knowingly committing offences, Nam aparadha, dont get Sadhu-sanga.
We come along chant “semblance of the holy name, Nam-abhasa” but then due to bad association we become nam-aparadhi’s
You state that for you Prabhupada is a bona fide guru. But why are his books, “just books”? Bhagavad-gita, also “just a book”? Prabhupada: “Lord Krishna’s words of the Bhagavad-gita or those of Srimad-Bhagavatam are identical with the Lord. They are sound incarnations of the Lord, and one can fully utilize them to be entitled to attain the stage of Sri Bhismadeva, who was one of the eight Vasus.”
In the same way, followers of Srila Prabhupada consider Srila Prabhupada as fully present in his books.
You conclude that without a physical present guru there is nobody to lay down the law, who points out when something goes wrong? Who personally trains his disciples?
This is surely what we want to have a bona fide spiritual master always present before us. The Lord’s appearance is rare even for great saintly persons who have become completely detached from this material world and whose hearts are clean due to constantly chanting the glories of the Lord. In the same way, pure devotees are also rare in this material world.
Therefore it is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam:
“One can derive from the study of the Bhagavatam all benefits that are possible to be derived from the personal presence of the Lord. It carries with it all the transcendental blessings of Lord Sri Krishna that we can expect from His personal contact.”
In the neophyte stage we might not have so much faith that this is actually true. Therefore Prabhupada instructed his followers to read his books daily at least for 2 hours. Gradually we realize that there is no disadvantage by associating with Prabhupada through his books and Prabhupada is fully present.
Srimad-Bhagavatam: “There is no difference between the sound representation of the Lord and the Lord Himself. One can derive the same benefit from the Bhagavad-gita as Arjuna did in the personal presence of the Lord.”
Letter to Karandhara: “I thank you very much and all the devotees for offering me a garland daily as you were doing when I was physically present. If a disciple is constantly engaged in carrying out the instructions of the Spiritual Master he is supposed to be constantly in company with his Spiritual Master. This is called Vaniseva.
So there are two kinds of service to the Spiritual Master One is called vaniseva and the other is called vapuseva. Vaniseva means as above mentioned, executing the instructions, and vapuseva means physically or personally rendering service.
So in the absence of physical presentation of the Spiritual Master the vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master, Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve His instruction I never feel separated from Him. I expect that all of you should follow these instructions.”
There is an attempt of spamming this website with lengthy comments of people who obviously have no clue how Srila Prabhupada wanted his followers to live in an association of devotees. There seems a misunderstanding about what is ritvik. Ritvik does not mean, isolated eremite existence and living on one’s own without adequate teaching staff.
So these are all foolish speculations presented anonymously under the guise of “well researched facts”.
Prabhupada installed a global movement with many temples, many devotees and large communities of friends of Krishna. Every temple was managed by a temple president and a GBC to supervise spiritual purity.
Prabhupada never wanted to change this system of experienced devotees to take care of new devotees:
It is another foolishness to conclude ritviks reject the association of advanced Vaishnavas because they believe that reading Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam is sufficient to attain love of God. It is not always possible to have the association of great devotees in this material world:
Basically there is no difference between the time when Srila Prabhupada was physically present and today. Many of his disciples did not personally meet Srila Prabhupada but were guided by temple community and senior devotees.
Why ritvik is rejected is explained here, bad association. Unrealized neophytes conclude without an embodied teacher/guru, holy books like Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam are just “books” and without having a physically present guru one can read these “books” for millions of years without making any advancement.
In sum these are materialistic conclusions of materialistic brains vilifying the potency of transcendental literature like Caitanya Caritamrita, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Nectar of Devotion,etc.
Prabhupada always stressed associating with devotees:
This question I want to pose is for those who don’t believe in the continuation of the ritvik initiation system, but also don’t believe in the GBC appointed guru system. How do you think devotees should be and should have been initiated after ’77? The only option I can think of is through the Gaudiya Matha (branches).
Thanks,
Surabhi
Thanks Surabhi, but for Prabhupadanugas there is no after. For realized devotees Prabhupada is fully present and his system of initiation goes on as Prabhupada clearly instructed. Prabhupada set up a system of initiation through priests (ritviks) and there is no need of change.
By using their material eyes, conditioned, unrealized prakrita bhaktas might conclude that Prabhupada is gone. But even when they think like that there is no reason to take shelter of those who never intended to follow the order of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and spreading the Holy Name outside of Bengal. I mean to say, our first and foremost duty is to conduct missionary activities – what is Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement all about – cooperatively.
In case you support the breaking up of Western Gaudiya Vaishnavism into multiple competing mini missions, good luck and do what you like. Hopefully one day you will get sincere and understand that without Prabhupada bringing the Holy Name to Holland, no Gaudiya-matha preacher would have put a foot in your country. So at least see Prabhupada as the only one who fulfilled the order of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and saved us from samsara by coming to Amsterdam in 1974.
Surabhi, do you believe in Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI ?
If your answer is YES, then, follow the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada with your full conviction in order to make your life sublime in practising and cultivating Krsna Consciousness.
There is enough material available on this web site for you to study furtherance in learning with regard to your questions.
Hope it meets you well.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
@Surabhi
According to sastra BG 3.9 one should take shelter of a bona fide guru in the beginning stages of ones’ bhakti. Or from Sri Krsna directly, which is quite rare for anyone to do.
The GBC does not appoint guru’s. They accept guru’s to be allowed to function under the flag of Isckon. They don’t decide: yes, you are a bona fide guru and you. And you …? No you are not a bona fide guru. That’s nonsense.
As a managing body the GBC tries to exectute Srila Prabhupada’s will as a service to keep Iskcon together, and expand her. Perfect or with flaws? That ultimitely depends on your personal level of consciousness in terms of conclusions since spiritually everything is perfect, materially everything is a always mess, BG 8.16.
Ritviks, imho, are fanatical people although perfectly designed by Sri Krsna, like Kamsa was also exactly doing what he had to do.
Basically ritviks try to understand Sri Krsna through dry reading and quoting of sastra and some idol worship of Srila Prabhupada.
My advise would be try to find a liberated guru within Iskcon. Not an amara ajnaya guru since they are not liberated but still allowed by Srila Prabhupada to function as guru.
The liberated guru can individually instruct and guide you back home. Srila Prabhupada can always be your siksa guru.
All succes with your choice, which has already been made …
@Guru Parampara Dasa
Proof of authenticity always was and still is to present quotes to back up your statements. Otherwise people figure you are GBC cheif who is above all.
This is of course flowery language what has to be translated into real meaning: GBC is the ultimate managerial authority of ISKCON – without GBC approval nobody can become ISKCON guru.
Above GBC admits they made mistakes – wishes to express its “deepest apologies” – so its time for Guru Parampara dasa to also pay his dandavats and express his deepest apologies. Parampara is destroyed when false gurus are appointed. Prabhupada: “As soon as you give up this parampara system, immediately the whole thing is lost, sa kalaneha…” (Vrindavana, October 24, 1976)
GPD: “My advise would be try to find a liberated guru within Iskcon”. This is a real joke, are you saying that all disciples of 45 meanwhile fallen ISKCON gurus were idiots? And only you, GPD, knows who is a genuine liberated bona fide guru? So this is all simply waffle, spiel. Once more you are disqualified to comment at this forum.
“GPD: “My advise would be try to find a liberated guru within Iskcon”. This is a real joke, are you saying that all disciples of 45 meanwhile fallen ISKCON gurus were idiots? And only you, GPD, knows who is a genuine liberated bona fide guru? So this is all simply waffle, spiel. Once more you are disqualified to comment at this forum.”
Well, the disciples of the 45 so-called fallen guru’s, Srila Prabhupada of course also stated that no one falls from the spiritual world, made their choice at the time of initiation.
“And only you, GPD, knows who is a genuine liberated bona fide guru?”
That’s just your weird fantasy.
Actually one realises purity when one is purified. How did devotees initially knew Srila Prabhupada was pure?
You are just very much obsessed with the very formal guru/disciple relationship. In that way you never become conscious of Sri Krsna , the sole object of spiritual life.
You ritviks do not even understand what Srila Prabhupada meant by “the relationship guru/disciple is eternal”. This is madhyam adhikari preaching that you take to be Absolute Truth. Of course, on another, sponteneous level, this relationship is eternal. But that’s all way beyond your capacity of understanding since you are at best worldy politicians. Worldy politicians filled with all kinds of materialistic dualities like gross ignorance, very stereotyped thinking, anger and envy.
Guru Parampara dasa STOP writing nonsense and START reading and understanding the Instructions of the Sastras first yourself and THEN have the courage to show and share it with your bogus self appointed deviant guru by a deviant disciple like yourself.
Here below is the description of the Instructions of the Sastra:
Three Types of Vaisnavas according to Srimad-Bhagavatam: Kanistha, Madhyama and Uttama
In Srimad-Bhagavatam, three specific categories of Vaisnavas are described in the following three verses:
The neophyte, or kanistha Vaisnava –
He who engages in worshiping the deity as Bhagavan Sri Hari, with ordinary faith received through some lineage of worldly teachers, but who does not engage in worshiping Sri Hari’s devotees, is a kanistha Vaisnava, or neophyte Vaisnava. In other words, he is just beginning to enter into understanding the science of bhakti.
The specific difference between worldly, traditional faith and faith based on the revealed scriptures (sastriya-sraddha) is that the former arises from mere conventional, worldly education, whereas in the latter, namely sastriya-sraddha, faith in the Vaisnavas arises from deep conviction in the words of the scriptures and is based on the evidence presented therein. It is only with the advent of sastriya-sraddha that the jiva becomes a madhyama Vaisnava, or intermediate Vaisnava.
Until sastriya-sraddha has arisen, the obligation of a sadhaka (a devotee in the stage of practice) to perform karma does not wane. In this regard, Sriman Mahaprabhu has said:
Such persons are not pure Vaisnavas, but they resemble Vaisnavas.
Solely by genuine association with true Vaisnavas, the kanistha Vaisnava, who is a vaisnava-praya jiva, can become a suddha Vaisnava (pure Vaisnava).
The intermediate, or madhyama, Vaisnava –
He who offers his love to the Supreme Lord, Sri Bhagavan; remains a sincere friend to all Vaisnavas; shows mercy to the innocent*; and, through the most appropriate use of indifference, tolerance or even complete avoidance, neglects those who are envious of Bhagavan and the Vaisnavas, is a madhyama Vaisnava.
_______________
* This refers to the vaisnava-praya jivas, or those living entities who resemble Vaisnavas but are not yet conversant with the science of bhakti.
In this way, the madhyama Vaisnava even shows fitting mercy to the envious, seeing them as ignorant. Only the madhyama Vaisnava is actually qualified to serve the Vaisnavas.
Since the kanistha Vaisnavas do not engage in such service, they cannot be called Vaisnavas; rather, they are known as vaisnava-praya (those who resemble Vaisnavas).
The topmost, or uttama, Vaisnava –
He who experiences the revelation of his own cherished form of Bhagavan in the hearts of all jivas, including his own; who experiences that all jivas, their very existence resting in Bhagavan, are fully surrendered to that same Supreme Absolute Reality; and who perceives everyone in the whole world as a Vaisnava, is known as an uttama Vaisnava (topmost Vaisnava). Such a Vaisnava does not see the difference between a Vaisnava and a non-Vaisnava.
The relationship of the disciples of Jayatirtha with him is eternal, that means, they will be smoking hash, dropping LSD, selling ecstacy drugs at music festivals, and chasing Jayatirtha with knives for having sex with his disciple’s wives, forever? Really? What has Guru parampara been smoking? This is an eternal lila? Where does he come up with this stuff? ys pd
@Puranjana dasa
So Srila Prabhupada was not an acharya since at least some Godbrothers of HDG were frauds?
And therefore also all Iskcon guru’s are frauds because Jayatirhta and quite a few others turned out to be crazy nitwits?
Indeed, this is just stereotyped, atheïstic thinking.
If there is a GBC who says all of their position papers since 1978 are bogus, who is he? Where has he protested their bogus documents like “The Mahajanas Have Difficulties? Srila Prabhupada protested in public about his bogus God brothers and their bogus siddhanta, but is anyone doing that on the GBC side? We never see that. BVKS just now wrote an apology for criticizing Radhanath’s bogus books. Sorry, the standard is that the bona fide guru protests the bogus ones in public, if anyone is doing that, we have not seen it. Yes, the GBC has never even wrote a paper saying that Jayatirtha was never a guru and the other ten were bogus to re-instate him, you are right, no such public correction has ever been made. At least now you are admitting, the GBC makes nitwits into their gurus, and then never writes a public disclaimer that their guru — never was a guru, and the others were nitwits to promote him. ys pd
@Puranjana dasa
You’re just a resentful old man.
Why don’t you become Krsna conscious instead of wasting your time on resenting? Are you that traumatised? Then perhaps look for a psychologer or a shrink.
Thank you all who took the effort to reply to my question, which, not meaning to be rude, wasn’t answered. At least not by devotees it was directed to, or by anyone knowing the answer.
Wow, couldn’t have imagined that a simple, objective, informative question could lead to such a strong emotionally charged discussion. Anyway, here we go..
@ Haraka prabhu: Thank you for your elaboration. It makes it clear to me where you stand in regard to my question. By the way, just curious, how do you know where I come from? Can’t remember having filled in a location.
@ Amar Puri prabhu: You say there is enough information on the site for me to find the answer to my question. So far I haven’t found it. That’s why I thought it to be practical (and faster) to ask it to the readers/participants. So in case you have a source to an article or something, I would appreciate.
@ Guru Parampara prabhu: Your points are clear, your advise appreciated, though I must say I didn’t ask for any advise regarding a choice to be made. As I mentioned, my question was of a strictly informative nature. The more surprised I am by the tone of the responses, which even failed to answer it..
Anyway let’s hope that it was due to a lack of clarity on my part, and not because of any self-made suggestions/speculations from others.
I will try to formulate it differently: Is there anyone reading this, who doesn’t support the current ISKCON guru/initiation system, AND AS WELL doesn’t support the ritvik system? Or if you don’t fit to this criteria, do you know devotees who do? And do you happen to know which stand they take regarding diksa?
Thank you ,
Surabhi
Well, since this thread is quite active, I want to take the opportunity to ask an other question, which, hopefully someone can help me out with. I posted it in the ‘Are ISKCON devotees forbidden to understand Srila Prabhupada’ article, but there’s no activity going on there, so I’m posting it here again.
It is regarding Srila Prabhupada’s letters, which, before coming into book form, had been kept as a microfiche copy. Can anyone explain about the details of that copy of Srila Prabhupada’s letters which was discovered somewhere in the 80′s? The one which is said to have been discovered by Sulocana prabhu (if I’m correct). If there was such a copy, it means that all SP’s letters were being compiled. How were they compiled in the first place? Were all disciples first requested to send a copy of their original letters? And then they (The Bhaktivedanta archives/BBT?) made a compilation, which was kept secret for years? How is this possible? Didn’t any disciple ask what was being done to the letters send by them?
Thanks,
Surabhi
Surabhi, did you read Sulocana’s the guru business book ?
If not, you may read it at this link ; http://prabhupada.org.uk/guru_business.htm
Sulocana got hold of letters from the BBT Archive and published the Guru Business Book for which he was murdered to expose the facts. Anyway, that is what I have heard it.
Regarding your other questions, I suggest you simply to follow Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions to make your life sublime in cultivating KC.
Hope it satisfies you.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Surabhi says:
30. September 2013 at 8:23 pm
“Thank you all who took the effort to reply to my question, which, not meaning
to be rude, wasn’t answered. At least not by devotees it was directed to, or by
anyone knowing the answer.”
“I will try to formulate it differently: Is there anyone reading this, who doesn’t support the current ISKCON guru/initiation system, AND AS WELL doesn’t support the ritvik system? Or if you don’t fit to this criteria, do you know devotees who do? And do you happen to know which stand they take regarding diksa? ”
SG — Surabhi, the question you asked on 23. September 2013 at 7:28 pm was understood. May we know more, your reason for asking this question?
HARE KRSNA
Surabhi says: It is regarding Srila Prabhupada’s letters, which, before coming into book form, had been kept as a microfiche copy. Can anyone explain about the details of that copy of Srila Prabhupada’s letters which was discovered somewhere in the 80’s? The one which is said to have been discovered by Sulocana prabhu (if I’m correct). If there was such a copy, it means that all SP’s letters were being compiled. How were they compiled in the first place? Were all disciples first requested to send a copy of their original letters? And then they (The Bhaktivedanta Archives/BBT?) made a compilation, which was kept secret for years? How is this possible? Didn’t any disciple ask what was being done to the letters send by them?
I assume that Sulocana Prabhu had to make photocopies of the letters. There were no microfiche copies at that time.
Not “kept as a microfiche copy,” “published as a microfiche copy.” Not “kept secret” either. The Archives were being put under a lot of pressure, during the early 80s, not to publish the letters, because some of them contain statements which are very critical of the “zonal acaryas.” The only way that the Archives could “get them out there” quickly, and still make some money off the deal, was to publish them as microfiche, so that’s what they did. (My wife and I were among their first customers.) Once they were “out there,” the pressure was off to some extent, so then they could take their time to publish the letters in book form as funds became available.
How did the Archives get the letters? My understanding is that some of them were carbon copies that Srila Prabhupada’s various secretaries had kept, but most of them were copies or even originals donated, at the Archives request, by the devotees who had received them in the first place.
Surabhi says: Is there anyone reading this, who doesn’t support the current ISKCON guru/initiation system, AND AS WELL doesn’t support the ritvik system? Or if you don’t fit to this criteria, do you know devotees who do? And do you happen to know which stand they take regarding diksa?
Only those who either consciously or unconsciously want to be the one and only next acarya in the line of disciplic succession after Srila Prabhupada! In other words, only big, big rascals fall into this category.
The GBC’s ignoring the voting provision of the 1970 Direction of Management, set an unfortunate precedent. Since Srila Prabhupada did not condemn them for this insubordination, they thought that they could also get away with ignoring his July 9, 1977 letter, but it doesn’t seem like they’re getting away with it this time, does it?
@Pratyatosa prabhu: Thank you for clearing that up, regarding the first publishing of the letters. I was just concerned with the transparency of the letters. Your information is very helpful.
I understand where you’re coming from regarding my first question, but unfortunately I still don’t haven’t found a clear example during my research. I can only come up with the Gaudiya Matha, but perhaps there are other tendencies/convictions that I wasn’t aware of. Again, this is just for my own research. Not to make any critical judgment to anyone. I just don’t want to be influenced by any particular ‘clan’ during the process.
@Amar Puri prabhu: I was aware of Sulocana’s book, but, like I wrote the other day, I am not intending to read through a whole book just to find a simple answer, which, fortunately has been cleared up now by Pratyatosa prabhu.
I will not comment on your advise regarding following Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, because then I will simply be repeating myself.. I appreciate the gesture though.
@SG: Well, initially it wasn’t understood by everyone, and not even still now yet, as I am still being preached to.
Anyway, my reason for asking is that I want to be informed as objective as possible regarding controversial issues, because I’m not the sectarian type of person, and at least I want to be able to say to myself that I have formed my opinion independently.
Surabhi, by following Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions and discussing same with the like minded people openly had certainly removed my controversial issues of all sorts as it might seem to a sincere seeker.
So I do hope that by doing so, you may get the answer as objective as possibly you can in order to satisfy yourself in forming your opinion independently as I did.
Hope it helps.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thanks, Amar Puri prabhu. Sorry if I sounded a little harsh the other day, but I’m sure you understand where I’m coming from as well. Hare Krishna
If anyone is interested to help me out with some more inquiries, I’d be very glad..(perhaps Pratyatosa prabhu?)
As for now, I’m concerned about the July 9th letter. Since the letter wasn’t revealed until the 90’s, then how can we be so sure that it wasn’t forged in some way? The only handwriting of Srila Prabhupada was his signature. The rest was typed, so that could theoretically been falsified. Of course, one may say that the letter, as it came to everyone’s attention, was not in the GBC’s advantage, but who knows, maybe it was still altered in some way, as in being interpretable in more ways (as has been done up till today)? Has this ever been researched? Or will it forever remain a mystery, unless those involved at the time to conceal the letter will speak up?
Haribol Surabhi,
As far as I can understand, the July 9th letter was sent to different temples in 1977. So the letter was circulated around, but as far as I understand was not shown to everyone. Also in one conversation, Prabhupada tells the devotees that he will select some devotees and then the letter happened.
If the GBC’s wanted to forge a letter to fool others, then they would have said something else on the letter, like that they where appointed as real acharyas. So the fact that the letter did become available finally to all devotees shows that Krsna and Prabhupada revealed this to everyone. Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of the Lord.
Haribol!
ys Suvarna
Suvarna says ; ” ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Also in one conversation, Prabhupada tells the devotees that he will select some devotees and then the letter happened. ”
Can you please quote the conversation of Srila Prbahupada that you are referring to in your comments, Suvarna Prabhu ?
Thank you.
Hari BOL.
Srila Prabhupada’s May 28, 1977 ISKCON Governing Board Commission (GBC) meeting.
Notes enclosed in [ ]
Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
[Srila Prabhupada clearly did not state “diksa-guru” nor “acarya” which is a direct repudiation of the successor diksa-guru accepting their own disciples senario in ISKCON.]
Suvarna Prabhu , your original comments which read as ; ” ” ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Also in one conversation, Prabhupada tells the devotees that he will select some devotees and then the letter happened. ” do not indicate that you are referring to May 28, 1977 conversation as quoted by you in reply to my asking.
However, thank you for the clarification which is appreciated.
Hari BOL.
Thanks, Suvarna. Yes that had been on my mind as well, that if the GBC would’ve made up an other version of the letter then they would have put something completely different, like the example you gave. Still, I just wanted to rule out that possibility, by hypothetically stating that they might have done it, since obviously the letter is being interpreted in the current ISKCON guru system – way by the GBC. So in my hypothesis maybe the original letter was even far more clear in the matter of excluding the guru system as is being continued uptil today in ISKCON. But since you reminded me that the letter had been sent to different temples in ’77, I guess my assumption is a little far fetched (unless of course the leaders of those particular temples it had been sent to, were part of the ‘club’..).
Locananada was TP of NY(?), he pinned it on the temple notice board.
I’d guess other TP’s would have done likewise.
Arundati, Pradyumna’s wife typed the letter (in Vrndavana) but before doing so, since there was no letter-headed paper. Karnamrita dasa (UK) was sent to Mathura to get some made. That took him a day.
Besides, only those like yourself, who are in ignorance of this subject, suggest such a possibility.
Dear bhakta Joe,
Thanks for sharing the info you’ve got. The reason for me double checking about this issue, is because in general, the letter became known to devotees not before the 90’s, so I totally justify my question, being ignorant about it or not (that’s the whole point of enquiry when you’re ignorant about something, don’t you think?)
I wasn’t suggesting anything, rather, I like I just mentioned, I was simply inquiring, ever from the day I started to take part in the discussions on this site. But after reading the many hostile discussions going on I doubt if this is the right place for any honest inquiry. It certainly isn’t very motivating..
Hare Krishna
Dear Surabhi dd.,
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
This is humbly to inform you that this site is meant for glorifying Srila Prabhupada and His VANI as it appears. That is why all of us like minded readers visit this site and share our experience of the Knowledge after hearing and knowing it from HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
I find your enquiry was correct and perhaps, you got the right answer. However, as it seems from your writing ; ” …………… But after reading the many hostile discussions going on I doubt if this is the right place for any honest inquiry. It certainly isn’t very motivating.” indicates your personal dissatisfaction on ground of hostile discussions as you expressed.
My humble suggestion to you is that please do not take any thing personally because we perceive things with our imperfect senses. So keeping this in mind, if we can make our respective lives sublime under the guidance of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada, by helping each other with respect, then it is a win-win situation. That is the purpose, we visit this site.
Hope it meets you well.
Hari BOL.
YS…… Amar Puri.
Surabhi says: But after reading the many hostile discussions going on I doubt if this is the right place for any honest inquiry.
Mahesh: Please chant this Hare Krsna mahamantra Japa with us—— before you go thanks!
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Once again, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
And again , Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
” the letter became known to devotees not before the 90′s”
Maybe so, remember though, that draconian measures were in place to expel (or worse) those who attempted to make it known. In other words, there was a deliberate cover up.
However by 1996 according to the following, it was accepted:
Could be due to improved communications by 1996, e-mail, web-sites, etc.
What is happening IS the UNHOLY BUNCH OF SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING CROOKS OF THE BOGUS VOTED IN GBC want everyone to believe that Srila Prabhupada is no longer available. THAT is their PLOY.
This is SO that they can carry on LOOTING others. This is WHY they send in their puppies here to check the progressive march of RITVIK accepting Prabhupadanuga devotees.
But we urinate on them–and send them back—- they come worse off. When we are done with them they STINK!!!
Srila Prabhupada IS available to EVERYONE – DIRECTLY:
If one thinks that there are many pseudo devotees or nondevotees in the Krsna Consciousness Society, one can keep DIRECT company with the spiritual master,
Madhya 19.157 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami
IF ONE THINKS THAT THERE ARE MANY PSEUDO DEVOTEES OR NONDEVOTEES IN THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS SOCIETY, ONE CAN KEEP DIRECT COMPANY WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, and if there is any doubt, one should consult the spiritual master. However, unless one follows the spiritual master’s instructions and the regulative principles governing chanting and hearing the holy name of the Lord, one cannot become a pure devotee. By one’s mental concoctions, one falls down. By associating with nondevotees, one breaks the regulative principles and is thereby lost. In the Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Gosvami, it is said:
atyaharah prayasas ca
prajalpo niyamagrahah
jana-sangas ca laulyam ca
sadbhir bhaktir vinasyati
Madhya 19.157 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami
“One’s devotional service is spoiled when he becomes too entangled in the following six activities: (1) eating more than necessary or collecting more funds than required, (2) overendeavoring for mundane things that are very difficult to attain, (3) talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters, (4) practicing the scriptural rules and regulations only for the sake of following them and not for the sake of spiritual advancement, or rejecting the rules and regulations of the scriptures and working independently or whimsically, (5) associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna consciousness, and (6) being greedy for mundane achievements.”
modes of nature. Karanam guna-sangah asya sad-asad-janma-yonisu.
Note: you can DIRECTLY associate with Srila Prabhupada by reading his books:
721020ND.VRN Lectures
But in this life, if we develop Krsna consciousness by association of devotees… As Narottama dasa Thakura has sung, tandera carana-sevi-bhakta-sane vasa. One’s aim of life should be to serve the acaryas. Acarya upasanam. So our acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, the sri-rupa sanatana bhatta-raghunatha, sri-jiva gopala-bhatta dasa-raghunatha, the Six Gosvamins, and if we associate with them… THIS BOOK, NECTAR OF DEVOTION, BHAKTI-RASAMRTA-SINDHU, IF YOU READ REGULARLY, TRY TO UNDERSTAND, THIS MEANS YOU ARE ASSOCIATING WITH SRILA RUPA GOSVAMI DIRECTLY. AND IF YOU ACT ACCORDINGLY, THEN YOU ARE SERVING THEIR LOTUS FEET. TANDERA CARANA-SEVI-BHAKTA-SANE VASA.
Why hear from some bogus GBC manufactured CONDITIONED soul CHEATER “Diska” guru Baboons when you can hear from Srila Prabhupada. PURE NECTAR:
http://krishnastore.co.uk/prabhupada-dvd-and-mp3-library-h-krishna-402.html
@bhakta Joe: thanks for adding more information. It is helpful. I also hope you now understand that what I was hypothetically suggesting before, wasn’t an absolute statement, but just part of an objective mindset for research instead of blind following.
@Amar Puri: Thanks for your encouraging words. I’m not taking anything personal, but when I read some of the discussions here which are plainly rude, any voice to point that out, such as that of my humble self, might help a little to improve the quality of any further discussions.
@Mahesh Raja: I’m not going anywhere (yet).