November 1975, Srila Prabhupada in Nairobi
July 03 2011, USA — So basically our friend Rocana is afraid to say what all of his various papers and articles are implying: that he rejects the July 9th letter and thereby rejects Srila Prabhupada’s own words. That is why he can only refer everyone back to his many subtle, vague, speculative papers on the subject.
He uses this technique so that if someone does find his position in an article, they will only have taken it from those very subtle and vague words that he uses, in which case he could once again simply tell them that they aren’t understanding it correctly and will most probably advise them to go back again and “do their work”.
It comes down to the fact that we take the words of Srila Prabhupada as absolute, while Rocana tries to find underlying meanings and what they could mean. Actually his whole sampradaya philosophy is based on the July 9th letter. If he took the word “henceforward” as what it actually meant, then his whole silly philosophy would be defeated.
If Srila Prabhupada tells you “henceforward”, then you better listen to him until He says otherwise! He thinks us “ritviks” hold our position entirely based on that word (“henceforward”) but actually it’s quite the contrary.He is the one who’s position stands solely on that one word. We have so many other sources of evidence to back what we say. Most of which are from Srila Prabhupada’s own words and letters from others which were signed and approved by Him, which is really the same thing.
Debating with someone like this would be an absolute nightmare. All I can see in such a debate is him saying “I didn’t say that” , “tell me where I said that”, “you are putting words in my mouth”, and/or “you need to go back and read my articles”.
First he needs to have clearly stated his understanding on how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be conducted in the future. Because that is the main idea around which such a debate would revolve. We don’t want to hear that Srila Prabhupada was unclear, we don’t want to hear his arrangement for how future initiations should be conducted, we want to hear how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be conducted.
To label the Spiritual Master and/or His words as unclear is a huge offense and is completely out of the question of debate. If you don’t understand something, that’s one thing. But don’t go on and speculate, rather pray to Krishna that you some day understand (or at least consult with a dictionary first). Don’t try to tell me that Srila Prabhupada left ISKCON without a plan.
Rocana needs to fully address the above question or the various other questions he’s been presented with before he even dares ask anyone to debate. Otherwise, a debate with him would be of no more value than debating with any other impersonalist or atheist; it gets us no where in regards to the subject at hand. Our basis of argument is Srila Prabhupada’s words.
Once you accept the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Sri Krishna’s spokesman and a Pure Devotee, there is no need to go back and consult with sastra in order to confirm His words. This would certainly be another great offense. What the Spiritual Master says, that is sastra.
Just my thoughts. Thank you, Haribol. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Your servant,
Vidura Das
Thanks, great analysis! Rocana also seems to ignore testimony given by his godbrothers. Hansadutta prabhu: “That is right. The eleven of us held secret meetings after Srila Prabhupada departed where we hammered out this whole bogus appointment thing. Ramesvara and Kirtanananda wanted to leave the meeting right away, saying that they already had tons of people waiting in line for initiation. But Satsvarupa said, ‘Wait, you cannot go yet. We have to make sure we all give the same answers to the same questions, or this appointment thing will fall apart in two weeks.’ So, Satsvarupa played ‘Devil’s advocate’ and he mock debated us until we all got this whole appointment idea worked out solidly. It is all a big scam.”
Haribol Sarvapalaka das
Nice comment…could you send me the link to that article of Hansadutta? Sounds fascinating!
ys Suvarna
OFF TO BERKELEY
August 1984 (ref: History 1984, 02. Apr. 2000)
gaudiya-repercussions
It was winter in Mount Shasta and there was maybe a foot of snow on the ground. I was out shopping in my old Ford truck when I saw a classic Mercedes car parked on the side of the road. This car looked familiar. Was this (the “guru”) Hansadutta’s car? I parked behind the car and after some time Hansadutta “swami” and his faithful servant Chakravarti dasa emerged from a store. We greeted each other and Hansadutta invited me to come over to visit him at another devotee’s house in Mount Shasta.
When I arrived the next day Hansadutta was resting and Chakravarti explained that Hansadutta’s condition was that of being “overdosed” on several drugs and alcohol. This was creating a toxic condition whereby he was sleeping most of the day, and in fact he was only awake about one hour a day. In other words, Hansadutta was close to dying. The Berkeley temple was spending several thousand dollars per week on a professional “detoxification center” near Golden Gate Park for their “guru,” but it was not working. I asked, “Why is he taking so much intoxication”? And Chakravarti said, “It is those constant chronic migraines. He just can’t take them anymore. And that is why we came to Mount Shasta, for the health spas.”
A short while later Hansadutta emerged from his rest and we all sat around a large table. “I think I should just die and get it over,” said Hansadutta. I said, “No! You cannot just die right now, you will leave behind so many confused people, especially your followers. You have to set them straight.” “I can’t,” said Hansadutta, “I’ve tried to tell them that I am not their guru, that their guru is really Srila Prabhupada, but they will not listen. They insist on continuing to worship me.” Of course I was not convinced that he had really tried to convince them effectively.
“We have to start by dismantling the bogus guru appointment,” I said. “This is the first level of illusion that needs to be corrected, the GBC’s saying that they were ‘appointed’ by Srila Prabhupada as his guru successors.” Hansadutta agreed and he added, “That is right. The eleven of us held secret meetings after Srila Prabhupada departed where we hammered out this whole bogus appointment thing. Ramesvara and Kirtanananda wanted to leave the meeting right away, saying that they already had tons of people waiting in line for initiation. But Satsvarupa said, ‘Wait, you cannot go yet. We have to make sure we all give the same answers to the same questions, or this appointment thing will fall apart in two weeks.’ So, Satsvarupa played ‘Devil’s advocate’ and he mock debated us until we all got this whole appointment idea worked out solidly. It is all a big scam.”
I further told Hansadutta that the cause of his headaches was probably from taking the karma of disciples. Srila Prabhupada had told us not to even let people touch our feet casually, or we would get some karma. And we would get sick and have to suffer. Yet your GBC’s gurus have hundreds of people washing their feet? Moreover, sitting in the seat of the pure devotee is very offensive, so you will all get a negative reaction for that as well. All considered, constant chronic migraines is probably just a warning for the reactions that you will get if you do not stop this now. Hansadutta shook his head knowingly and said, “Yes, this is probably all true.”
So then I detailed a plan of action. We would have to stop all forms of his being worshipped and re-establish the worship of Srila Prabhupada. He seemed to be very happy and relived at this prospect and he said, “OK, let us do it. We can start in the Berkeley temple.” He said he would give me a facility to stay there, and a plan was made for me to go there in the near future.
A short while later our little family landed on the Berkeley temple’s doorstep. Hansadutta was there at the time, but he seemed very surprised that we had actually finally made it as agreed. Most of his followers were very stiff and tense, since he had apparently not told them that we were coming. I already had a reputation for “challenging the gurus,” “being an offender to the eleven appointed pure devotees,” and so on, thus some of his followers looked a little grim. He held an emergency meeting right then, but I was not invited. I am not sure what he told his followers but he at least told them to be polite, and perhaps, not to beat us up, which was the fate that some dissidents met there.
Our presence there was of course quite a shock to his followers since I would walk around and say, “Oh these gurus were never appointed, Hansadutta admits that they all lied.” Many of them were very angry, yet they were forcibly restrained from taking steps to silence me due to Hansadutta’s order. Meanwhile, all this was turning out to be too much for Hansadutta himself. Our presence was reminding him of the whole bogus platform of his “guru” post. So after a few days I heard him shouting in the temple foyer, “Tell a lie so big no one will believe that it could be a lie,” and he was saying this repeatedly. A few of his followers finally came to his rescue and they had to lead him away to his room.
He was having a sort of nervous breakdown …due to my presence probably? This culminated exactly one week, to the day, later. Hansadutta went out in his Toyota Jeep with four loaded guns and he shot out the Cadillac dealer’s plate-glass windows, and then he shot out the windows of Ledger’s Liquor store. Both buildings were occupied at the time and the patrons “hit the deck.” A policeman stopped Hansadutta’s Jeep shortly thereafter. And officer Joe Sanchez told me later, “That officer shit his pants when he saw four guns in the front of that Jeep. He thought this guy in the Jeep is whacked and he has another gun hidden somewhere and he is going to use it on me.” A bottle of liquor was found on the floor of the Jeep, and Hansadutta was carrying nearly eight thousand dollars cash on his person. Hansadutta was arrested for firing a gun at occupied buildings.
And that was our introduction to the Berkeley temple! –to be continued–
pamho agtACBSP
I’m glad to hear that some of these survivors now are saying I give you diksa initiation on behalf of SRILA PRABHUPADA – anyway everything will be back normal again as soon as they give back Iskcon to the acharya and surrender to the final order.
Due permanent defeat they understand that they are not in the position of our best paramahansa HDG ACBSP.
ys seva das
haribol
Yes i agree Rocan deep down resents not being a guru ,and sets up such debate in regard how Srila Prabhupada wanted his movement to go on forward ,Srila Prabhupada knew well no one was qualified -no one .He has through out his vast books used terms as bona fide guru ,why ? what is this bona fide guru word come from .The warning is to doubt Srila Prabhupada’s carefully chossen words he has used for he knew the future .Rocan be careful do not join the ranks of offenders or perhaps you have since you too have a great doubt how Srila Prabhupada wanted his movement to go on. He knew no one was QULALIFIED to be a guru.
This was UNPRECIDENTED but needful to spread the movement which would save this earth.Sri Krishna is always by the side of his pure devotee period, and therefore one should be very vigilant to doubt the words of a PURE DEVOTEE – Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you Sarvapalaka das! Appreciated!
Hare Krsna.
For devotees whom are still conditioned by the material energy its very difficult to understand the words ,mind and actions of a pure devotee as in the case of Srila Prabhupada.many of His words have been mis-interpreted,mis-represented and mis-understood as we have witnessed, by senior and junior devotees alike.And this is the danger for us when we think we are “debating” Srila Prabhupada’s words.Its easy to colour His words just to suit the conclusion that you want.We are all culpable of this.
So when we come to “debate” Srila Prabhupada’s words its a good choice to be transparent and present the understanding you have without confrontational choice of words but more a thought provoking mood so that we can synthesise out all our anarthas from our own mis-interpretations of Srila Prabhupada’s words.
Why cant Gbc members present “Rittvik” conclusions from Srila Prabhupada’s words? Because they dont believe in “rittvik” even though there is alot of words by Srila Prabhupoada concerning “rittvik”.
Why cant “rittviks” present evident conclusions that Srila Prabhupada disciples’ are next in line in Disciplic Succession? Because they dont believe there are any Srila Prabhupada disciples good enough to be Acharya number 33.
And so the stalemate continues for ever.
Find common ground .Present Srila Prabhupada’s words transparently.Debate with dignity and integrity and truthfulness and the Bona Fide conclusion will come out eventually.Besides that Krsna and Srila Prabhupada know who is sincere and thats what counts in the end,isnt it?
A guru doesn’t need to be ‘appointed’. Where in our sampradaya does a guru tell his student, ”Ok , you go be guru now”.
This whole thing is baseless.
Please dont spam this website! Write articles or comments with adequate quote from sastra / previous acaryas, otherwise you’ll be banned.
Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.
Indian man: Did it…
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(Srila Prabhupada Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
pamho agtACBSP,
this is the most serious problem nowadays that everyone goes too speedy in becoming guru, but practically almost everyone is under the raja and tama gunas therefore they can’t see how nobody can become guru without being ordered to become guru.
Prabhupada: “A guru can become guru when he’s ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.”
Being engaged in the sincere service to SRILA PRABHUPADA 24 hrs a day ahaituki apratihata to be able to serve the Sankirtan movement and not to exploit the transcendental movement of our beloved acharya.
Then we can say we are safe. Otherwise, yantrarudhani mayaya keeps us travelling up and down the lower 14 planetary systems until we become serious to overcome the three gunas.
Prabhupada: “That is our aim, that although we are in this material world, by this Krsna consciousness process we shall live above these three gunas. These three gunas cannot touch me. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Who? Mam ca vyabhicarini bhakti-yogena ya sevate. Anyone who is engaged in pure devotional service avyabhicarini, not mixed up, whimsical, regularly, as they are ordained, as they are prescribed. So if anyone is engaged in such transcendental loving service of the Lord, then his position is: he is above the three gunas.”
ys a.c. seva das
haribol
To become an ISKCON guru, one does not have to give up prostitutes, right?