BY: Hasti Gopala Dasa
July 23, 2011 — TORONTO, ONTARIO, CANADA —
Dear Madhudvisa Prabhu.
Please accept my humble obeisance’s all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
You said yesterday at Ritvik Lies and ISKCON Lies:
“However, the real point I was making was, in spite of what the ritviks say, Srila Prabhupada does in fact want his disciples to become qualified diksa gurus and go on to initiate disciples, etc. And the ritviks are lying when they say he does not want this.”
First, you are telling a big lie here about me, you did not name me but you included me in this. There are many Prabhupadanugas aka Ritviks who have never said that Srila Prabhupada said there should be no more gurus. Please in the future name those who stated that and the source.
“So as I said we have two groups here and they are both mixing lies with the truth to push forward their own agendas.”
Now you are saying that there are agendas in regards to the Prabhupadanugas, this is a modern conspiratorial term, as in hidden agendas, and you do not inform the readers as to what you think that those agendas are.
You lump us in with the most despicable ISKCON as having an agenda like ours what ever that is. What would be your agenda and who would you think would make a good qualified guru leader these days?
“For the practical preaching work of Krishna consciousness guru is necessary. The real question is the qualification of the gurus. Because ISKCON has presented so many unqualified gurus who have caused so much grief and suffering for the unfortunate disciples so many have become disgusted at the very idea of guru.
Just thinking of “guru” brings pain to the hearts of the victims of these bogus gurus. So it is understandable that the ritviks preach “Prabhupada says there should be no more gurus…” But actually Srila Prabhupada does not say this… It is a lie, but I guess an understandable lie.”
Here again you lie saying that all of the Ritivks tell this lie but belittle us by implying that since we do not have any real philosophical or spiritual knowledge from Srila Prabhupada “our leader” then it is understandable that we would make up this lie.
“In reality the guru is required. Guru is a teacher, a leader, and nothing can be organized, nothing can go forward without a qualified leader. So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward. We can sit down and read Srila Prabhupada’s books by ourselves and become Krishna conscious.
But if we want to follow Prabhupada’s instructions and preach then there is a limit to how much one can do by himself. So if there is to be a group then there has to be a leader and the people in the group have to accept the authority of that leader. Otherwise it can not be managed. And no matter what you want to call that person, he is the guru, he is the teacher.
Where are you living these days? Do you seriously think that you know everything that is going on in the world as a result of Srila Prabhupada’s presence, past, present and future? There are many so called Ritvik leaders doing service all over the world, not just in Bangalore.
Bangalore is recognized all over the world because there are Ritvik leaders out there who are teaching what Srila Prabhupada is giving so your statement that… “So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward” is not based on any evidence at all. Now you have burdened yourself to prove that the Ritviks are leaderless and guruless, that no preaching and no progress is being made.
This I find amazing since you have been distributing Srila Prabhupada’s original books for so many years and yet because you do not “see” any so called guru leader then there is nothing of Lord Caitanya’s movement going on. Looks like you are serving too hard, better re read a little.
“Many ritviks are just as hostile to the concept of a leader as they are to the concept of a guru. They do not want to surrender to anyone. They do not want to accept any authority. Except Prabhupada…”
We are not hostile to the concept of a leader or the concept of a guru, we want to make sure that the rest of the world gets a real bona fide leader and a real bona fide guru that is what our action is all about. We already have a guru and a leader, everything we need to know from Srila Prabhupada is outlined in his books.
Everyday he is teaching us, so everyday he is there for consultation. Living. Why would anyone want to take the time to try and surrender to a conditioned soul at this time in history when everyone has access to the Mahabhagavat Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada and Diksa initiation from him?
“Although the ritviks have this aversion to leaders and gurus it is Srila Prabhupada’s mission to create gurus, to create leaders, therefore the ritvik preaching that Prabhupada does not want his disciples to become gurus is a great offense and a great misrepresentation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.”
Another lie, lumping all the Ritviks together and repeating the same thing as the above previous notion. The notion that anyone of us Ritviks is interfering in Srila Prabhupada’s mission to create gurus is complete nonsense.
Do you seriously think that if we felt that way we would be able to interfere in Srila Prabhupada’s ongoing mission? We have no aversion to any of Srila Prabhupadas teachings or ideals, that is a lie, not provable and is actually a great offence itself against Srila Prabhupada because we are his followers and disciples.
“Without the leader and without the surrender to the leader nothing can be achieved in the practical field.”
We are not leaderless, ladies and gentlemen the Prabhupadanugas are not leaderless and are very surrendered to Srila Prabhupada, everything we do for Srila Prabhupada is practical because we are strict followers.
“So this process of guru and disciples is an eternal process and it can not be stopped and nothing can be managed in the practical sense without leaders who in effect are living gurus. It sounds like a terrible thing to say from the point of view of the ritviks. But it is the reality.
If we want to serve Srila Prabhupada by spreading the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world then like he says we need so many qualified gurus. And they have to have disciples who accept them as the authority… Otherwise nothing can be managed and there can be no preaching.”
Awe yes, here Madhudvisa Prabhu says that one needs a living guru but up to this point he does not say which kind of a guru but that it must be a “living guru” so the readers are left to guess what kind of guru he is talking about.
Again we have many gurus already serving all over the world spreading Krsna Consciousness in ways unknown to Madhudvisa Prabhu, their students are becoming disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
The above statement sounds to me like the same process instituted by the infamous ISKCON, they have more gurus every year and they say they are qualified via Srila Prabhupada’s standards and sastric standards, they have disciples who accept them as authorities, they manage and they preach the way they see fit. So it sounds to me that Madhudvisa Prabhu supports the same process instituted by ISKCON…who he says here tells regular lies.
“I know the ritviks will hate me for this but they can not do anything because they have no leader and will not accept anyone as their leader [except Prabhupada but they disagree about what Prabhupada says…]. If they are not arguing with ISKCON they are arguing among themselves. There is no respect, there is no trust, there is no cooperation. Nothing can be done. There is no future in this…”
Just because we “ritviks” have no so called living guru leader that fits the unknown dynamic by Madhudvisa Prabhu, does not mean that we “ritivks” deserve his white wash here folks.
We don’t argue for the sake of arguing we argue to learn, that we are arguing with ISKCON is not true anymore these days because ISKCON has been defeated by we, the Prabhupadanuagas time and again, they need to be confronted or would Madhudvisa Prabhu feel better if we just let ISKCON off the hook for their on going misleading philosophy?
Where is the respect, the trust and the co-operation in ISKCON? It is in the bank! Madhudvisa Prabhu says that there is no future in confronting ISKCON or working things out with ourselves and he likes to point out how our discussions and arguments can get quite hot…sure they can but when was the last time that there was any freedom of thought in ISKCON so that everyone and anyone could air their dirty laundry? We have freedom of expression, freedom of thought, freedom of movement and especially freedom of association.
“ISKCON’s crime in this regard is presenting so many completely unqualified persons as guru. So many bogus rascals cheating the disciples in so many ways has really made the whole guru concept disgusting for so many people… But the ritvik’s answer “No more Gurus!” is also wrong.”
Again, another lie here, we don’t ALL say this. You just pointed out that the present guru system is completely faulty dangerous and wrong yet you said above that…”If we want to serve Srila Prabhupada by spreading the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world then like he says we need so many qualified gurus.”
So who is going to be the one who will “qualify the new gurus?” YOU! Or Srila Prabhupada? Srila Prabhupada of course, so therefore we must have Srila Prabhupada as our leader so that he can show us who is qualified so that when a Mahabhagavat Pure devotee shines we will know that he may be recommended to others. Only a real living leader can do that and there is no other real living leader other than Srila Prabhupada.
It is not wrong to say “no more gurus” it is wrong to say “yes more gurus” if your authority is not Srila Prabhupada, again, if your authority is Srila Prabhupada then he is your real living guru and the present guru of anyone who wants him.
“By the spell of illusion one tries to be happy by serving his personal sense gratification in different forms which will never make him happy. Instead of satisfying his own personal material senses, he has to satisfy the senses of the Lord. That is the highest perfection of life. The Lord wants this and He demands it. One has to understand this central point of Bhagavad-gita.
Our Krishna Consciousness Movement is teaching the whole world this central point, and because we are not polluting the theme of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, anyone seriously interested in deriving benefit by studying the Bhagavad-gita must take help from our Krishna Consciousness Movement for practical understanding of Bhagavad-gita under the direct guidance of the Lord.
We hope, therefore, that people will derive the greatest benefit by studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is as we have presented it here, and if even one man becomes a pure devotee of the Lord we shall consider our attempt a success.”
“So that one man [or hopefully many] who become pure devotees of the Lord by studying Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad-gita As It Is and his other books and putting his teachings into practice in their lives and by their surrender to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, they will be the qualified gurus who will be empowered to push on Srila Prabhupada’s movement.”
Correct, so how can you assume that pure devotees are not present and serving because you have not encountered one? And how can you say that they are not empowered and pushing on Srila Prabhupad’s movement? Have you been all over the world to all the Ritivik places of preaching and contacted all those who are now serving Srila Prabhupada?
“Of course in one sense anyone can be a guru but unless he is a pure devotee of Krishna he will not have the potency to elevate his disciples to the platform of pure devotional service so from the disciples point of view he is useless. He can not deliver Krishna to them.
So what is the point of accepting him as guru? It is useless and will end in disaster for both the disciples and the guru as we have seen time and time again. Therefore one must accept an uttama-adikari, a pure unalloyed devotee of Krishna as his spiritual master.”
Correct again! Srila Prabhupada left instructions on how one may accept him as their spiritual master and that is going on in many places in many ways around the world. So how can you say that… “In reality the guru is required. Guru is a teacher, a leader, and nothing can be organized, nothing can go forward without a qualified leader.
So without the leader, without the guru, there can be no preaching, nothing can go forward.” Srila Prabhupada is leading, teaching, organizing, preaching and moving things forward. Waiting for guru is nonsense when the best one is here now and forever. Better to stop this ongoing guru talk and talk about service to Srila Prabhupada and how to become a first class disciple.
“I think that sometimes people have misunderstood that I am a ‘ritvik’. That has never been true. I have always protested these lies of the ritviks that Srila Prabhupada never intended his disciples to go on to become qualified diksa gurus, that Srila Prabhupada did not want any more gurus for the next 10,000 years, that all the quotes in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings regarding his disciples going on to become qualified gurus only refer to siksha guru, never diksa guru. These things are complete lies and I have always protested them.”
Now you are going a little too far here claiming now that we Ritviks talk only lies. That is a lie! Again, you are not specifying who has said what, this is an unfair blanket attack on Srila Prabhupada’s disciples and followers from all over the world.
So the “ritviks” have really done a great disservice to Srila Prabhupada by propagating these lies. Still, in spite of the ritviks and in spite of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada continues to live on in his transcendental books and audio and video recordings and any sincere soul can take advantage of Srila Prabhupada’s personal association in this way and surrender to Srila Prabhupada and surrender to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada will initiate him. This will go on and no one can stop it!!!
Again, another lie by Madhudvisa Prabhu that there are many lies coming from all the Ritviks, Bangalore and Madhu Pundit included. Here is the lowest point of his article…”Still, in spite of the ritviks and in spite of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada continues to live on…”
In spite of us and our lies in regards to our spiritual master Srila Prabhupada’s teachings Srila Prabhupada survives as a direct result of the sales from KRSNASTORE under Madhudvisa Prabhu’s management and leadership. Again, as disciples of Srila Prabhupada we are indirectly labeled as useless threats against Srila Prabhupada and his mission in the same category as the infamous ISKCON.
So Madhudvisa Prabhu if you ever decide to take on the task of becoming a guru ( whatever kind that is ) or if you think that someone qualifies ( whatever kind that is ) then be prepared to be confronted by us Prabhupadanugas Ritvik Srila Prabhupada Disciples to make sure that the world does not get cheated, that’s a promise not a lie.
Ys
Hasti Gopala Dasa
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