httpv://youtu.be/O5J36BOgLaA
video: ISKCON Times
By: Madhavananda das
Hare Krishna prabhus,
Locanananda prabhu has been describing his understanding of how initiations should be conducted.
The idea that initiated devotees should be the disciples of those people performing the initiation ceremony does not add up. If we follow this interpretation of the May 28th conversation – that the new initiates are their disciples, and Prabhupada’s grand disciples; if we accept this then we also must accept what Prabhupada says right there in the previous sentence, that the ritvik system would only serve as a necessary formality for the time up until his physical departure, at which time the 11 disciples would assume the position of regular initiating gurus. So it doesn’t make any sense why you would still today call the initiators “ritvik acaryas”. Why not just call them diksa gurus? Your idea is basically the same as the GBC, only difference is you disagree that the initiating gurus should be worshiped. Perhaps we just don’t want to call them “initiating” or “diksa gurus” because we all know that Prabhupada has taught us that the initiating guru is to be worshiped as good as God.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Prabhupada says on May 28th that the initiations would be done on his behalf only as a formality during his physical presence, and afterwards they would be regular initiating gurus, accepting their own disciples who would be be grand disciples of Prabhupada. So if we look at it this way, which is the same explanation given by the GBC, then the function of ritvik would have been only for during Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence, and afterwards there would be no more ritvik at that time. These chosen disciples would then be regular diksa gurus. So it does not make sense to still call them ritvik acaryas today. If we’re going to accept the conversation that way, that they are Prabhupada’s grand disciples, why not accept the whole thing? Prabhupada clearly says there that ritvik would only be during his physical presence.
But the other point is that Prabhupada says “on my order”. And this is the main point as to why some of us do not accept that Prabhupada ever actually authorized anyone for this position. The fact that so many of these 11 disciples later, after claiming themselves as successors, were then exposed in all kinds of illicit activities, is proof enough that Prabhupada never actually gave anyone such an order. And the fact that all these 2/3 elected rubberstamped gurus today keep falling down like dominos, is further enough proof that the current system is not bonafide either.
One may question why then Prabhupada would have lead them to believe that they were going to become initiating gurus. The May 28th recording itself has been forensically analyzed and is claimed to be adulterated. But even taking it as genuine, it is possible that Prabhupada was giving a test to his disciples by telling them this and then never actually giving such an order. There is also the fact that many of the tapes from Prabhupada’s final days have been totally eliminated, being burned in a fire after being put in the hands of Tamal Krishna. So there could have been many more things Prabhupada spoke on this matter to these disciples.
In any case, Prabhupada said when he orders. Where is such an order no one can clearly say. The follow up letter to this conversation which came on July 9th, does not mention anything about these persons transitioning into diksa gurus after his departure. It only describes the ritvik system and says that it should be implemented henceforward. It does not say that it should end at any time. That is an assumption that the system should be terminated after his departure. We are also making the assumption that Prabhupada was asked on May 28th specifically how initiations would continue after his departure, and that Prabhupada then followed up a few weeks later by issuing a letter to the entire society regarding initiations, but which has nothing to do with what would happen after his departure, which was the whole point of the GBC meeting.
This letter is the first and last letter, the one and only letter that Prabhupada ever issued to the entire society concerning initiations, and we are proposing that it has absolutely nothing to do with how initiations would continue into the future – that it is only a description of how things would go on for a few months, and after that we have no other specific instructions on how things would go on, aside from the May 28th conversation, which was never instructed by Prabhupada to be issued to all leaders of the society, and which speaks nothing of there being a multitude of initiators who would be rubberstamped by an ecclesiastical board. This makes a lot of sense – we’re saying that the May 28th conversation supersedes the letter which Prabhupada signed and ordered to be issued to the whole society. That the letter actually has nothing to do with after Prabhupada’s departure because all the instructions we need Prabhupada gave on May 28th, a recording which was not made available to anyone for 10 years after Prabhupada’s departure. That makes a lot of sense.
If we believe that justification for ending the ritvik system was given on May 28th, and that Prabhupada, despite saying “when I order”, had already given the order at the same time, then we have to believe that Prabhupada actually authorized those 11 persons to become regular initiating gurus to be worshiped as good as God. Obviously that does not make much sense either.
This is the only difference between Locanananda prabhus idea and that of the GBC, whether these “initiating gurus” should be worshiped or not. Where does Prabhupada say that the initiating guru would not be worshiped? We’re saying that Prabhupada does not mention anywhere that he would accept disciples after his departure. But where does Prabhupada mention anything about this idea, that someone would be an initiating guru simply as a formality, not to be worshiped? The whole reason why this matter is so controversial is because Prabhupada always describes the position of the initiating guru as worshipable, on the same level with the Supreme. And he says that only a first class mahabhagavata devotee is eligible to occupy the position of initiating guru.
“Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge,
and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. […] the spiritual master who
initiates the disciple is called disksa-guru.” (Lord Krishna Krsna Book 80)
“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be
accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead.
Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.” (Madhya 24.331 purport)
“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There
are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost
class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people.”
(Madhya 24.330)
Prabhupada defines the initiating guru as “the real spiritual master”, the “one spiritual master”, the “only one.”:
“To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught.””(Letter to Sri Galim 11/20/71)
So this description given by Prabhupada above does not comply with the idea that the diksa guru can be just someone who performs a ceremony, is not worshiped, etc. Where does Prabhupada define diksa as simply a ceremony, or formality? This idea disregards the actual meaning Prabhupada gives for diksa – the reception of transcendental knowledge, which is primarily being given through Srila Prabhupada. So how one can say Prabhupada is not the one giving diksa? This is overemphasizing the formality aspect which Prabhupada says is not even essential, and it proposes a parampara which is mainly based on formality, and which overlooks the actual essence – reception of transcendental knowledge. We can cover it over by calling them “ritvik acaryas”, but then to say that the disciples are their own and Prabhupada’s grand disciples, what we are really saying is that they are the initiators the one’s giving the diksa, in other words – the diksa gurus. Why not just say it plainly? Prabhupada however, has not anywhere defined the role of an initiator, or diksa guru, whatever you may call it, in this way.
All of the following statements from Srila Prabhupada describing diksa and disciplic succession are completely at odds with the idea that diksa is just a ceremony, a formality, and that the initiating guru is just someone who is part of that formality. No, Prabhupada says the diksa guru is the real guru, whom we get the knowledge from, and whom we worship, and who must be an uttama adhikari – someone who actually sees Krishna always, not just someone who performs a fire ceremony and then has practically nothing or very little to do with the devotee thereafter.
”Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.” (Madhya 4.110) “Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.” (Madhya 9.61) “Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.” (Madhya 15.108) “In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.” (Madhya 9.61) “…disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.” (Letter Dinesh 10/31/69) “Initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.” (Conv. 10/16/76)
Nowhere does Prabhupada ever describe this relationship of an initiating guru in such a way that the initiator is simply a person who performs a ceremony simply for the sake of formality , and does not receive worship. That type of guru at best is what Prabhupada always defines as an instructing, or siksa guru. And Prabhupada says one may have many siksa gurus, but the initiating guru must be one. Why? Well it must be because the initiating guru is worshiped as good as God, and thus must factually be as good as God, a mahabhagavata, infallible. Also because the instructions of the initiating guru are the primary source of knowledge.
Where did Prabhupada ever describe that devotees would do all the worship for their grand spiritual master and siksa guru? Prabhupada did not initiate disciples and then have them doing guru puja for Bhaktisiddhanta. Perhaps there are a few isolated cases one can dig up somewhere of instances where the siksa guru was the prominent guru, but as far as Prabhupada’s teachings, where has Prabhupada given such examples? As far as I’ve seen, Prabhupada practically always, with few rare exceptions, defines the initiating guru as one who is a mahabhagavata and is worshiped as good as God.
I do not know why there is the confusion with calling these people “ritvik acaryas” and saying that at the same time they accept their own disciples who are Prabhupada’s grand disciples. If we accept that these people are the initiators and that the initiates are Prabhupada’s grand disciples, then why not just comply with the GBC and accept that they should be worshiped? Even the few instances where Prabhupada did indicate to his disciples that they could eventually occupy the position of initiating guru, he acknowledged that they likewise would also be worshiped:
“I have heard that there is some worship of yourself by the other devotees. Of
course it is proper to offer obeisances to a Vaisnava, but not in the presence of the
spiritual master. After the departure of the spiritual master, it will come to that
stage, but now wait. Otherwise it will create factions”. (Letter to Hansaduta October
1, 1972)
Personally I believe that such few quotes like these show that Prabhupada encouraged the ambitions of certain disciples in order to continue serving and being instrumental in expanding the mission. It is not however, necessarily proof that they were yet on the level. Of course this a favorite type of quote for our friends who adhere to the rubber stamping process. They have their quotes too. The most interesting quote I’ve seen is one which simultaneously accommodates both points of view:
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)
Notice how it somewhat acknowledges accepting initiation from a guru who is not on the top level, while at the same time moreover it discourages doing so. My conclusion is that this subject matter of accepting disciples is intentionally somewhat ambiguous, lending itself to various interpretations. I believe that when Prabupada was directly approached with the question of initiations after his departure, he likely had good reason to not answer in clear cut black and white terms. It may have just not been the Lord’s will for him to do so. And this is why we may not find any clear cut, black and white statement where Srila Prabhupada says flat out “I will continue to be the initiating guru even after my physical departure.” Think of what may have ensued had Prabhupada actually made such a statement. It is likely that envy would have surmounted causing great disruption. In order to avoid such disruption, while at the same time keeping everyone’s ambitions busily engaged, Prabhupada did not directly answer this question. It is meant to be understood be revelation. This concept is described in the CC.:
TRANSLATION: At first all the followers of Advaita Acarya shared a single opinion. But
later they followed two different opinions, as ordained by providence. PURPORT: The words daivera karana indicate that by dint of providence, or by God’s will, the followers of Advaita Acarya divided into two parties. Such disagreement among the disciples of one acarya is also found among the members of the Gaudiya Matha.
We all know the story of disagreements after disappearance of Bhaktisiddhanta over precisely the same issue, and how they started rubberstamping initiating gurus, and how Prabhupada has said that we should never make the same mistake in ISKCON. It is ironic how history has repeated itself although the warnings were there written clearly on the wall. Anyhow, the way I see it Prabhupada has given instruction on this matter by various indications which require serious inquiry on the part of any devotee. Prabhupada did not need to answer this question directly in black and white terms, about how initiations would continue. It is apparently by Lord Krishna’s arrangement that each devotee is given the task to inquire for themselves into this matter and sincerely try to understand the instructions Srila Prabhupada has given in this regard. It is basically a test for all. In this way the Lord is fulfilling everyone’s desire and rewarding everyone according to their surrender. It is by the will of Providence that this disagreement is there, just as the disagreement was the will of Providence after Bhaktisiddhanta’s passing, as stated above.
Anyway that you look at this situation, any argument that you give there will be questions and some things may not seem to make perfect sense. So we have to look at which one makes the most sense of all. This argument that these people are the initiators, not Prabhupada, and that no one else can anymore become a direct initiated disciple of Prabhupada, just does not quite add up nearly as much as the concept of everyone accepting Prabhupada as the initiator, as a unifying principle for the future of this movement. At least as far as I am concerned. But hey, we all have our free will. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. What makes the most sense to you? It is not possible for everyone to always agree on one thing. In the end we have to agree to disagree and acknowledge that there will be different groups of devotees according to different natures and different levels. Prabhupada acknowledges this in his teachings and instucts for us to associate with likeminded devotees. This website is called “Prabhupadanuga” and is obviously intended for devotees who believe that Prabhupada set up a rtivik system to continue accepting his own initiated dsiciples after his physical departure. Why there are persons here trying to convince others of something to the contrary is beyond me.
There are many, many points to make in support of accepting the continuation of the ritvik system, and we can go on forever. But there’s two more points I’d like to add here. First point is regarding what Prabhupada has stated several times in later years, when questioned by news reporters, one being from Time magazine; these are some major public statements. In late 1976, on at least three occasions, reporters specifically questioned Srila Prabhupada on whether he would have any successor after his departure. Note that each time Srila Prabhupada indicates there would not be any successor, but that he was training ‘managers’, or GBC to carry on the movement. Each time he only refers to the zonal system and GBC zonal secretaries. He never said then that his disciples would initiate their own disciples and carry on the parampara in that way. He refers again and again to the zonal system and GBC secretaries. Again, a zonal system is only required for initiations if we’re talking about ritvik initiations, because Prabhupada has never defined an initiating guru as being restricted to any zone.
Reporter: “Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?” Prabhupada: “I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.” Reporter: “Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?” Prabhupada: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person.” (Int. 6/4/76)
Interviewer: “What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?” Ramesvara: “He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future.” Prabhupada: “They will guide. I am training them.” Interviewer: “Will there be one spiritual leader, though?” Prabhupada: “No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.” (Conv. 6/10/76 L.A.)
Interviewer: “I was wondering if he had a successor to do… Do you have a successor to take your place when you die?” Prabhupada: “Not yet settled up. Not yet settled up.” Interviewer: “So what process would the Hare Krsnas…?” Prabhupada: “We have got secretaries. They are managing.”
(Conv. 7/14/76 N.Y.) Reporter: “Who will succeed you when you die ?” Prabhupada: “I will never die! I will live forever from my books and you will utilize.”
The last point is regarding the fact that Prabhupada’s final will states that only his initiated disciples can be the trustees for ISKCON properties. The continuation of the ritvik system is the only way that this condition can be met in future generations.
In summary, I put forward several questions for anyone who has the same conclusion Locanananda prabhu is giving. Our views are similar in the sense that we agree that only Srila Prabhupada should be worshiped. But to preach that no can anymore become Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciple I perceive to be a form of exclusiveness which is there to protect the idea that one is special, one of the chosen few “Prabhupada disciples”. It is another form of distinction and adoration. I do not see how this idea is meant to expand the Krishna consciousness movement. People need to be given encouragement and full faith that they can be directly connected to a mahabhagavata pure devotee. There is too much cheating going on in this Kali Yuga, and people need something which they can be assured of, and which will unify people. This whole business of so many people having their own disciples is just factionism and so much cheating. It does not make any sense that this is what Prabhupada has intended for us. Let’s give up this sort of monopoly on being a Prabhupada disciple and rather just encourage everyone we can that they too can be a disciple of Prabhupada.
Here are my questions:
1. If todays initiated devotees are Prabhupada’s grand disciples, why do you call the initiators “ritvik acaryas” when Prabhupada said ritvik would be done only as a formality during his physical presence ? (provided he gave the order for them to become initiating gurus). Why do you not just call them initiating gurus or diksa gurus?
2. Where does Prabhupada describe this relationship of an initiating guru who is not worshiped and who is simply someone who performs a formality and does not necessarily even have much involvement in the disciples’ life? how do you describe the actual relationship between the person conducting the initiation, whom you call a “ritvik acarya”, and the newly initiated devotee. Where does Prabhupada describe such a relationship?
3. Where does Prabhupada define diksa as merely a ceremony, or a formality as being the essence of initiation?
4. How do you explain that in Prabhupada’s final will it states only his intiated disciple can be a trustee of any ISKCON property. How will this condition be met in future generations?
There is no term “Ritvik Acharya” The correct term is “Ritvik” or “Officiating Acharya” NOT RITVIK ACHARYA!
Thanks, Madhavananda Prabhu, for this wonderful response to my presentation, especially all of the references to sastra and direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada.
First, let me say that my understanding of this website is that it is a place for Prabhupadanugas, those who feel that their dedication to the service of Srila Prabhupada is the essence of their being, to associate. As long as we do not deny his recorded instructions, there is certainly no harm in discussing from different angles of vision how Srila Prabhupada wanted his ritvik order carried out.
One thing I am sure of is that when it comes to the parampara system, Srila Prabhupada was not going to go against the spirit of the disciplic succession by continuing to initiate disciples even after entering maha-samadhi. As I have been pointing out, there is no direct statement where he even hints that he will continue to do so, but in fact, there are statements where says that his disciples will have disciples of their own. The discussion that was intended to guide the society in terms of future initiations took place on May 28, 1977. On that occasion His Divine Grace was clearly asked about who was the initiator of those people who would receive diksa from a ritvik acarya. It should be understood that this term, ritvik acarya, is the equivalent of officiating acarya and would only be used after Srila Prabhupada would no longer be present. If Srila Prabhupada intended to continue to act as the initiator of new devotees, he would have answered, “They are MY disciples,” but he did not. To the contrary, he replied, “They are HIS disciples,” referring to the ritvik acarya, who was giving diksa.
This is really the crux of the matter. You brought up the stipulation from Srila Prabhupada’s will concerning property trustees. It is stated in the final draft of the will that they must be initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. However, if you read the transcript of the GBC presenting the text of the will to Srila Prabhupada, the particular draft read to him said a property trustee must be “an initiated disciple,” and not “my initiated disciple.” Srila Prabhupada himself did not say it should be changed to “my initiated disciple.” That was decided by the lawyer who was preparing the document. Srila Prabhupada had accepted the description of “an initiated disciple” and this section of the will can therefore not be presented as some kind of proof that Srila Prabhupada would continue to initiate after entering samadhi. Besides, those who are learned in the scriptures of the Vaisnavas know there is no reference anywhere to an acarya who continued to initiate disciples after leaving this world at the conclusion of his worldly pastimes.
So what we have is no scriptural precedent or practical example in any vaisnava line where an acarya proposes to continue to give formal diksa to disciples after he is no longer physically present in this world.
In addition, there is no direct statement from Srila Prabhupada to that effect. And, in fact, there is a direct reply to the question regarding those people who receive diksa from an officiating acarya which was not, “They are MY disciples,” but instead, “They are HIS disciples,” referring to the officiating acarya.
There are many other points in your comment (treatise) that deserve to be answered, but tonight I will conclude by pointing out that Srila Prabhupada’s choice of the term officiating acarya is very significant.
By officiating one does not become the object of surrender and worship. Srila Prabhupada in his most humble way was guaranteeing that his position as the great acarya and eternal spiritual master of all ISKCON devotees would never be eclipsed by those who would give diksa in the future.
(more to come)
Locananda Prabhu is suffering from a case of convenient amnesia.
Lets check this out:
Facts:
1) In the SAME conversation Srila Prabhupada very CLEARLY states WHEN I ORDER. So where is the question of anyones disciple unless Srila Prabhupada gives that ORDER to be DIKSA guru. And we KNOW that this ORDER was NOT given because in the Madhya Lila Ch 24 text 330 ONLY a MAHABHAGAVATA is to be accepted as Guru. And to remind you further – it is 3rd OFFENSE in chanting if one EITHER becomes a guru without this QUALIFICATION or accepts lower than Maha Bhagavata. So in both cases spiritual life – FINNISHED!
2) EXACTLY what DISCIPLINE are the bunch of hypocrite “gurus” going to give that has NOT been already covered in Srila Prabhupada’s books, Cds, Tapes bearing in mind Srila Prabhupada states: Disciple means discipline. Are you saying Srila Prabhupada has forgotten some discipline in his books so that other lunatics can give this?
760308mw.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… Sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. Sas. Sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Sastra. Sastra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline.
Furthermore – this has already been discussed in detail:
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
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Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
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Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
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Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
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Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
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Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
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Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
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He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
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The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
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Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
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Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
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Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
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Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
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Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
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We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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More twisted logic from Locanananda das.
“Srila Prabhupada was not going to go against the spirit of the disciplic succession by continuing to initiate disciples even after entering maha-samadhi.”
M reply- The COLOR of the law is different from the SPIRIT of the law, but you have the two confused.
The SPIRIT of disciplic succession is NOT in the COLOR of formality. The SPIRIT is the SUCCESSFUL transmission of transcendental knowledge and the practical DISCIPLINE by which the recipient can realize that knowledge. Thus a mahabhagavat acarya will adjust the color (details) in order to successfully keep the essential spirit in tact.
LD wrote: “The discussion that was intended to guide the society in terms of future initiations took place on May 28, 1977.”
M – reply: Of course I spoke to this in my last reply, which LD completely ignored. But that is OK, because some need to hear things more than once to understand. I am not referring to LD who has no ability to debate point for point, but for those who may be newcomers and weak minded enough to be swayed by the repetitive propaganda LD promotes. The Nazi’s knew well that if you repeat a lie enough, at least some people will accept it as truth.
The “DISCUSSION” was not intended to guide the society. That is ridiculous. The discussion occurred between Srila Prabhupada and men he knew to be the most deviant and ambitious of the lot. Proven in the very conversation when they did not accept his first answer.
NO, the formal GUIDELINE for the SOCIETY came 5 weeks later (after it was SETTLED UP BY THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD SETTLE THE MATTER), That guideline was distributed to EVERYONE IN THE SOCIETY.
As opposed to LD’s erroneous suggestion that a discussion of a future policy, with no conclusion, made between SP and a handful of leaders, which no one would be privy to for a decade, would somehow countermand the actual policy guideline.
Well, I won’t bother to dissect the rest of LD’s repetitive posting as it is just a regurgitation of his same story that was defeated previously. If anyone should be swayed by his illogic at this point, then that is what they deserve I am sorry to say.
Hare Krsna
In response to Krishnapriya Devi, who wrote:
“There is no term ‘Ritvik Acharya.” The correct term is ‘Ritvik’ or ‘Officiating Acharya’ NOT RITVIK ACHARYA!”
This is exactly how I would have expected Srila Prabhupada to respond to Tamal Krishna Maharaja if TKG had not used the correct terminology when future initiations were being discussed in a recorded conversation on May 28, 1977. Those who spent time with Srila Prabhupada will tell you that he would not allow anyone in his presence to use incorrect terminology or to present mistaken ideas without correcting them on the spot.
So when TKG said, “Is that called ritvik acarya?” and later on, “These ritvik acaryas — they are officiating, giving diksa,” if he had concocted something that was not bona fide, Srila Prabhupada would have spoken just as you did in your post. He didn’t. In other words, Srila Prabhupada approved of the terminology introduced by his secretary. Please consider following the example set by the spiritual master.
Our godbrother Pita Dasa was in Vrndavana at the time and has testified that he heard Srila Prabhupada use the expression “ritvik acarya, transparent to the previous acarya” on more than one occasion. Pita dasa prabhu also said there are many missing tapes of conversations that were recorded during that period, so please consider whether you can safely state that the terminology in question was never used by Srila Prabhupada in regard to future initiations.
According to Baladeva Vidyabhusana, there are five sacraments in the initiation process. Based on a verse from the Caitanya caritamrita, devotees here are defining initiation as the transmission of knowledge which is actually only one of those five sacraments. When we think of how transcendental knowledge is received, we naturally think of Krishna speaking to Arjuna on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, but this was not diksa. This was the Supreme Personality of Godhead functioning as siksa guru. To say Srila Prabhupada is giving formal diksa to those who read his books is incorrect, just as it would be incorrect to say Arjuna received diksa from Krishna on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra.
When Srila Prabhupada’s representative is giving diksa, he is officiating, and there is no reason to promote him as the object of surrender and worship. This has been ISKCON’s big mistake, beginning
right after Srila Prabhupada left this mortal world. They have rejected the idea that new devotees will become fully qualified for initiation by surrendering to Srila Prabhupada. He alone can deliver them. There should be no bait and switch. When devotees join the Krishna consciousness movement, they accept Srila Prabhupada as their eternal spiritual master. However, when the time for initiation approaches, a student is obliged to surrender to a “new guru.” If he does not, there will be no initiation. This bogus concoction places the official initiator above the GBC in the minds of new initiates, just as Srila Prabhupada was above the GBC. Of course, the guru will tell his disciples to be respectful of other ISKCON managers, but this is primarily lip service. One’s real spiritual authority is whoever one surrenders to, and in their recent statement defining parallel lines of authority, ISKCON still recognizes that person to be the initiating guru.
In sastra, there is the example of Yadunandana Acarya who gave diksa to Raghunath das. In the Caitanya caritamrita he is referred to as the “official initiator spiritual master” of Raghunath das. The term Srila Prabhupada gave us is very similar: officiating acarya. After Raghunath dasa received diksa he went to Puri where he took shelter of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Similarly, when a devotee joins the Hare Krishna movement, he takes shelter of Srila Prabhupada as his deliverer. The formalities of initiation are to be performed by an officiating acarya, but there should be no attempt to replace Srila Prabhupada as the deliverer of the disciple. That idea is starting to sink in, but ISKCON is still stuck on the false principle that the initiate must surrender to the initiator. No. The initiate remains a surrendered soul at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and nothing should be done to disturb that faith. And as long as the officiating acarya is a strict follower, he may act as the transparent medium in giving diksa. If he later backslides, there is no need for the disciple to be reinitiated because his firm attachment to the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, his real spiritual master, is undisturbed.
The standard in ISKCON should be that after a devotee has followed the rules and regulations for a period of six months to a year, he may receive first initiation. Today, that is not possible because of bait and switch. After practicing Krishna consciousness to the point of steadiness, an aspiring devotee has to then build a relationship with a “new guru” for a year or two before being considered a no-risk candidate for initiation. If ISKCON were to implement the officiating acarya system recommended by Srila Prabhupada, devotees could once again be initiated within six months to a year after joining, in accordance with the instructions given in Srila Prabhupada’s books.
I hope this answers some of the other questions raised in comments posted above.
This is a side note for Mark and a few other new devotees who seem not to appreciate my presentation. I only write when inspired to do so, and the negativity of others does not deter me. Your criticism is just a symptom of attachment to false ideas and a sense of insecurity when those ideas are being threatened. Rest assured, I mean you no harm.
It was Srila Prabhupada himself who encouraged me to write, and you can check that out on the VedaBase by searching, “Your ideas are good and are surely worth considering.”
I will continue to respond to Madhavananda prabhu’s post as time permits and when the inspiration moves me.
Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,
Locanananda dasa
Hare Krsna, Locanananda Prabhu. You say, ” Those who spent time with Srila Prabhupada will tell you that he would not allow anyone in his presence to use incorrect terminology or to present mistaken ideas without correcting them on the spot.”
So if I’m not mistaken, Prabhupada DID correct TKG when he mentioned the term “Ritvik Acarya”
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
That was a correction from Prabhupada.
Prabhupada didnt say “Ritvik Acarya, yes”, he said “Ritvik, yes”
Gauranga!
Dear Ash are you joking apart, or what? Ritivk is the new word introduced here by Tamal, and the Acarya Himself confirmes the proper use of the word in connection with the word acharya. The focus is put herein on the ritivik term as a new word in the spectrum of the main topic of the discussion. Correction from Srila Prabhupada would never look like that, it is not correction at all, it has not a one single characresristic or sign neither an single element of a correction or refutal at all. Correction is needed here on your side my dear.
y.s.bj
Yes, Locananda dasa, I am in agreement with you on this” the negativity of others does not deter me. Your criticism is just a symptom of attachment to false ideas and a sense of insecurity when those ideas are being threatened.”
Ash has a point on the ritvik acarya term used by Tamal Krsna Goswami. Srila Prabhupada replied by saying ritvk, yes and didn’t follow up by saying acarya. And in his july 9th letter Srila Prabhupada said” to act as “ritvik — representative of the acarya”. You may want to consider this point.
Hare Krsna.
You can check out hundreds and hundreds of examples of Srila Prabhupada’s language when he wanted to reject an idea or just state that it was incomplete. Very simply, he would begin his statement with “No.”
Here he is saying “Yes,” which cannot be deemed a correction. Rather it shows agreement. This is simple English.
Here is an easy example to illustrate the point:
Obama’s motorcade drives by. The son asks, “Was that the President of the United States?” and the father replies, “The President. Yes.”
Hansadutta letter to Kirtanananda 1993
Singapore, 2. October 1993
Dear Kirtanananda Maharaj
Please accept my humble obeisances.
I thought now is the time to remind you of what you said to me upon meeting you at New Vrindaban after my fall from Guru and Sannyas. Seeing my condition, and anticipating the ensuing chaos and confusion amongst the new disciples, you said, “This is why I suggested so strongly that ISKCON should adopt the RITTVIK process of initiation for the new Gurus!!” It has been a long time since then, but after all is said and done, I have personally realized the truth of this statement. Rittvik representatives is all that PRABHUPADA ever sanctioned us to be -not ACHARYAS or GURUS.
After years of anguish and confusion over this issue, I have by the mercy of Prabhupada, come to take shelter in his instruction: “Act as Rittvik of the Acharya.” I think it is time for me to repay the debt I owe you for giving me shelter when I was so broken and lost in my spiritual life.
I humbly suggest you consider the fact that Prabhupada never authorized us to be Gurus, but restrained our ambition by designating some men to act as his deputies, or Rittvik representatives. Better late than never. Give up the false posture of Guru Acharya and consider acting as the humble servant of the Acharya, as a Rittvik representative. That is the solution for you and all the ISKCON Gurus.
If you step back, resume your sadhana and service attitude towards Srila Prabhupada as his rittvik representative exactly as you used to do for him when he was still physically present, then most devotees will probably stand by you. Many will return to your guidance. You have nothing to lose by taking this humble position, except the false prestige of being a guru acharya, which is haunting you like a ghost.
New Vrindaban is a wonderful place, and it was built under your charge, but only because the devotees were empowered y Prabhupada, on account of their sincere desire to serve him (Srila Prabhupada). In other words, they enthusiastically accepted so much sacrifice, penance and austerity to help you build New Vrindaban, because they saw your sincere determination and desire to please Prabhupada.
Of all the godbrothers, you have accomplished the most monumental task by the building and development of New Vrindaban community. On the other hand, you now stand on the precipice of the total ruin of all you have accomplished, if you obstinately stick to your false posture as the acharya and guru. The godbrothers are waiting like vultures to devour you, New Vrindaban and all the devotees, because more or less all of them are haunted Prabhupada the same ghost of false prestige, thinking, “I am the guru, and all should serve my feet.” has remarked the fast two pitfalls of maya are to think one’s self as God and the other is to think one’s self as guru.
By taking your proper position as Srila Prabhupada’s menial servant, no better today than the day you first met him in Nework, you will save yourself and possibly your example could save the whole ISKCON movement.
You said you want to save ISKCON, but that requires saving yourself first.
As your younger godbrother, I have taken the liberty to attempt to instruct you. Please excuse my impudence. Whatever I have written is my deep, heartfelt concern for you, all the devotees with you, the wonderful creation of Prabhupada’s Palace of Gold and of course, Srila Prabhuada, our beloved spiritual master, by whose mercy we have all been awakened to the highest ideal of preaching love of Krishna to the whole world. As the first and foremost of Prabhupada’s disciples, be the first to demonstrate yourself as his rittvik representative. I am prepared to help you in every way, if you do the right thing.
I sincerely hope you are well. I mean you no ill will. I always admire you, but at this time I feel compelled to give you this important advice.
Your humble servant,
Hansadutta dasa
Obama’s motorcade drives by. The son asks, “Was that the President of the United States?” and the father replies, “The President. Yes.”
This analogy fails as the ritvik being a humble brahmin would not require a motorcade. Though in the zonal acarya era your analogy would not be so far off the mark.
Anyway lets look at the rest of your analogy …
The son asks, “Was that the Ritvik of the Acarya?” and the father replies, “The Ritvik. Yes.”
Ritvik OF the Acarya? Yes!
Not that the Ritvik IS the Acarya!
If that is what you are saying, then what is all the argument about?
Hare Krsna,
Pamho, agtsp.
There is a controversy regarding the relationship between Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bipin Bihari Gosvami. I’m really troubled by the article in http://www.gaudiya.com/pdf/Bhaktivinoda_Thakur_and_Bipin_Bihari_Goswami.pdf
I am very confused. I request all of you to please shed light on this issue. I will be eternally indebted to you if you can clear my confusion,because in the absence of a proper explanation, I fear that I may lose my faith in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.
Begging for a reply,
Your servant,
Santosh
Locanananda das
I don’t appreciate that you ignore straight up challenges to your presentation, as you did to my simple challenges in the other thread on this same topic.
I don’t appreciate that instead of responding to direct challenges, you instead label your challengers as mere “critics”. I say your logic is twisted and prove it. You insinuate that is some sort of negative attack on your character. Wow. Of course you have proved unable to counter my examples, so I guess my observation has merit after all.
I don’t appreciate how you claim that those who don’t agree with you and challenge your presentation are simply insecure and attached to false ideas. Of course you are the one who does not answer the challenge, yet instead paint your challenger as being emotionally disturbed (insecure) and deluded (clinging to false ideas). Who can honestly appreciate such a faulty debate technique??
Furthermore and most of all, I don’t appreciate how you go on to arrogantly assert that not only are your words a result of pure inspiration only, but then imply that Srila Prabhupada backs every word out of your lotus mouth based on a compliment he gave you decades ago.
In short, no sane person could possibly appreciate your pomposity, nor your tendency toward projecting unsubstantiated criticisms upon others when it is obviously you who are suffering from the disease.
I actually hope you can wake up from your delirium and rejoin reality. I don’t wish you ill by pointing this out.
Hare Krsna
“Jagat – Sat, 29 Nov 2003 04:25:33 +0530
There is no denying that Kushakratha did tremendous service. We should not forget Dasaratha Suta’s contribution. His natural attraction for rasika literature has opened up this area for many devotees. These two men have been very prolific in their work.
Hridayananda Goswami is, I believe, concentrating on the Mahabharata these days, but I have no details. I think that in terms of actual mastery of Sanskrit, he and Gopipranadhana are probably the tops right now in Iskcon amongst those in Western bodies. Hridayananda has a number of disciples who have studied Sanskrit. Of those, Kunti Devi, who last I heard was doing a PhD at Berkeley, is most worthy of mention.
There are a number of others with varying degrees of knowledge. Most of the Iskcon (or ex-Iskcon) scholars presently working in academia–Garuda, Santosh, Advaita Prabhu, etc., are all competent.”
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“Keshava – Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:36:52 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Jul 3 2004, 03:44 PM)
In response to Talasiga. The point was already made in this thread about the terms diksha and initiation. What we are talking about here is specifically diksha, or the formal giving of mantra by guru to disciple.
Confusion arises from a grammatical misunderstanding.
divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saMkSayam
tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva-kovidaiH
This verse is not defining an unknown named “diksha”, but rather saying why the known thing, diksha, has been given that name. It’s the difference between “The beautiful woman is my wife” and “My wife is a beautiful woman.”
In other words, “Diksha, i.e. the transmission of mantra by guru to disciple, is known as diksha because it is meant to (use of vidhi-liG) bring divine knowledge and destroy sins. Not “Anything that gives knowledge and destroys sins is diksha.”
Interesting the way you put that definition. Here is the translation of the same verse (from Bhakti Sandarbha 283) by ACBSP:
QUOTE
“By dIkSa one gradually becomes disinterested in material enjoyment and gradually becomes interested in spiritual life” (NOI Text 5 pp 51)
or
QUOTE
“dIkSa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures kows this process as dIkSa.” (CC Mad 15.108 purport)
or without reference to the Sanskrit:
QUOTE
“dIkSa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination” (CC Mad 4.111 purport)
Some more quotes from ACBSP (would anyone care to comment on these?)
QUOTE
“As enjoined in Hari Bhakti Vilasa by Sanatana Goswami, tathA dIkSa vidhAnena dvijatvaM jAyate nRNAm: by the regular process of initiation, any man can become a brAhmaNa.” (CC Adi. 17.265 purport)
QUOTE
“According to the VaiSNava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brAhmaNa. The Hari Bhakti VilAsa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the ViSNu yAmala:
adIkSitasya vAmoru kRtaM sarvaM nirarthakam
pazu yonim avApnoti dIkSAvirahito janaH
“Unless one is inititiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend into the animal species.” (CC Mad 15.108 purport)
QUOTE
“The regulatiive principles of dIkSa are explained in the Hari bhakti vilAsa (2.3-4) and in Bhakti Sandarbha (283). As stated:
dvijAnAm anupetANAM svakarmAdhyayAdiSu
yathAdhikAro nAstIha syAc copanayanAd anu
tathAtrAdIkSitAnAM tu mantra devArcanAdiSu
nAdhikAro’sty ataH kuryAd AtmAnaM ziva saMstutam
“Even though born in a brAhmaNa family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brAhamaNa family, one becomes a brAhmaNa after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brAhmaNa, he cannot worship the holy name properly” (CC Mad 15.108 purport)
And here’s one about purazcarya vidhi for Jagat:
QUOTE
“For six months, a candidate for initiation must attend Arati and classes in the zAstras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purazcarya vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation.” CC Mad 15.108 purport)
Also just to give more details on ACBSP’s kula guru I quote here from the Gaudiya Patrika article about ACBSP taking sannyasa.
QUOTE
“At the age of 12, according to his father’s desire he (ACBSP) accepted initiation from the family guru, Mahindranath Goswami. Remaining with his mother and father in worldly life he began the practice of so many rules concerning proper Vaishnava behavior. ………. (Then after meeting BSST) ………. He could therefore understand that Vaisnava dharma wasn’t the preaching efforts displayed by the jati goswamis and sahajiyas. It is only in the Gaudiya Math that the pure philosophical teachings of Lord Caitanya are available and so the so called initiation he received in his youth from his family guru according to tradition wasn’t pure in itself. He understood that the pure goswami doesn’t have any connection with family birth. Goswami means one who controls thesenses. Therefore only one who can do so is entitled Goswami. How many personalities in the material world in family life have control of their senses?
avaiSNava-mukhodgIrNaM putaM hari-kathAmRtam
zravaNaM naiva kartavyaM sarpocchiSTaM yathA payaH
guror apy avaliptasya kAryAkaryam ajAnataH
utpatha-pratipannasya tyAga eva vidhIyate
Supporting these instructions he took shelter praying at the lotus feet of the flower of all the Goswamis, Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saratvati Goswami Maharaja. He bestowing immeasurable amount of mercy upon him remembering the household life of Gopal Bhatta Goswami (What?) presented the sacred thread unto him.
This is an excerpt from an article given to me by Santosh das entitled Gaudiya Patrika Article on Srila Prabhupada’s Sannyasa, dictated by Santosh, typed by Dasya-rasa dasi.
Keshava”
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So, Santosh das, why don’t you stop fooling around, be truthful and sincere about yourself and just tell us what is it that you seek here . And i am wondering whether this Madhavananda das is in together with you on this.
Hare Krsna.
Dear Santosh prabhu there are certain rules to be followed while we do attempt to reinstall our natural dharmic spiritual position in the eternal service to Lord Sri Krishna. One of the rules is not to disrespect the advices of the Spiritual Master – since Srila Prabhupada warned His followers not to contact the remnants of the Gaudiya Matha since their disobedience to H.D.G. Srila Bhaktisidhanta Goswami Maharaja Prabhupada. Try prabhu to listen to this warning and in the spirit Krishna will help you certainly. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Sacinandana Bhaktivinoda Thakur Acaryas!
y.s. bj
Locanananda das is simply playing at TWISTING the issue to make it sound that Ritvik can give diksa and have disciples. WHAT A LOT OF GARBAGE! He uses the same cunning word jugglary that bogus GBC use.
Seems more like he wants to play at being Ritvik and at the same time PLAY THE GAME OF INITIATING HIS OWN DISCIPLES. Madman or what?
The following will help the those who are seeking the truth:
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
Hare Krsna,
All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you Bhakta Jarek Prabhu for attempting to help me. But my main worry is that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur prays to Bipin Bihari Gosvami in his manjari form (this implies that Bipin Bihari Gosvami is a totally liberated person), and at the same time, I’ve read that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada reinitiated a leading disciple of Srila Bipin Bihari Gosvami. But Srila Prabhupada (our Prabhupada) says that it is a breach of Vaisnava etiquette to reinitiate someone’s disciple (in his letter to Hrishikesh das, who was being pleaded by Bon Maharaj to be initiated by him). And it is also true that an Acarya teaches by his own example. This is my question. I have a lot of regard for Srila Prabhupada, and I don’t mean to offend anyone.
Begging for a reply,
Wanting to serve Srila Prabhupada,
Your helpless servant,
Santosh
But here (as in my comment), Srila Prabhupada uses the word initiation in terms of the formal ceremony, isn’t it? Otherwise what is the meaning of reinitiation?
Begging for a reply,
Santosh
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krishna Madhavananda Prabhu!
Very nice, now I have it!
Accordingly, with Locanananda´s thought, the Ritvik-Acarya is neither ritvik nor acarya, because it sounds too much ritvik and too much acarya also. He is a master without disciples by which he is not a master and by that, he cannot have adoration. Nevertheless, he is an acarya that cannot share his position with another acarya because he is a karmi.
In another words, for the Locanananda´s thought when Srila Prabhupada say:
“To act as (a) ritvik-acarya,” it means:
“They are already” ritvik-acaryas. Or
“They can become” ritvik acaryas. Or
“To be appointed as” ritvik acaryas. Or
“To act as” sannyasis millionaires. Or
“To act as” rats, dogs, etc.
Anyhow but never accept “To act as (If they were) ritvik acaryas.”
By that we have to appoint Locanananda as the successor ritvik-acarya for the next ten thousand years by his unique interpretation of the three words “To act as” Because in this way he is converting the movement for the re-spiritualization of the humanity into a commerce of the spirituality. In addition, we can know that he is a “Prabhupadanuga” and Anti-Prabhupadanuga and a Nazi and a Jew.
This is the characteristic of Fiskcon, the empiricism and the schism (rupture). Like the Christians; for all the religions the first commandment is to develop love by God, but they have changed it for “Don’t worship those images.”
Another schism of Fiskcon is the subject of Ekadasi date. Because of in America we have nine or twelve hours of difference from India, we have to do Ekadasi the day before. As if, Sri Ekadasi Devi or Sri Papa Purusa will grant their influence today for a half part of the world and tomorrow another half. Even the karmis have an international line for change of date. In addition, the Pacific Ocean is the half part of the world. If Lord Caitanya say: “Today is Ekadasi.” Then is Ekadasi for the entire world. I cannot speculate without any sastric evidence that: “Accordingly with the modern cosmology, x, y or z.”
Yesterday they were against Iskcon, today are attacking the Prabhupadanugas and tomorrow we do not know; maybe will be Madhuvisa Prabhu or others. Our dears Prabhupadanugas from New Zealand were a rock in the road of “Bhakta” Jarek a supposed devotee since more than 30 years. Very offensive and arrogant. Srila Prabhupada said, “When you do the double what he is doing then you can critique him.” Moreover, Srila Prabhupada said, “If you say to the people don’t do this, then they will say: -Then what can we do? When “Bhakta” Jarek was questioned: “What can we do then prabhu? He said, “I don’t know.” Is he a Prabhupadanuga? His despotism is like of the owner of the world and without doubt, the big powers of the world are behind of this. Another characteristic of this kind of enemies of the humanity, is their ignorance and are always using one sentence of Srila Prabhupada to modify the entire program. The more important thing is that they are always blind to the big problems in Fisckon. In addition, the solution: the ritvik system “is a problem.”
A FAQ: “Why do you want to become Krishna conscious? R. / simply because we know this is there and is our natural position. If you are intelligent and you are towards your highest profit, you will take it. That’s all, and this is an inconvenient true for the world. They want to put the lowest to the highest and the highest to the lowest. To divinize the mundane and to mundanize the divine. This is the eternal fight between the good and the evil for the control of mother earth. In B.G. 6-40:
“The Blessed Lord said: Son of Pṛthā, a transcendentalist engaged in auspicious activities does not meet with destruction either in this world or in the spiritual world; one who does good, My friend, is never overcome by evil.”
Those of us who are loyal to Srila Prabhupada do not need any outside instruction from Gaudiya Matha books etc as many things are concocted. Santosh can derive his own conclusions.
Suffice to say the instructions below are good enough for us Prabhupadanugas:
73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
Interesting praises of TKG by Locanananda Prabhu 3 years ago in ISKCON Israel. I have questioned him about this and got from him to hear how badly material is my vision. Well, so far you must be right dasaanudas (a nickname I guess, anyway) I am a very rude person.
The “nectarine” praising of Srila Prabhupada’s poisoner, fake, self made Acarya TKG appears about in the 3 min 15 s. of the video. But be careful, when you question the author of the praises you may be also in result of such an insult later on reject Srila Prabhupada while finding even faults with Him (to those interested I may show private correspondence from Locanananda prabhu to the snake “bhakta” jarek in proof of this).
Locanananda prabhu in his short yet enthusiastic eulogy of Tamal Krishna Goswami uses particularly the term “guru” who the spoken became (MADE HIMSELF INTO it) “later on”, after 1970 which the narration refers to. So the praise is obviously not for what Tamal did during Prabhupada’s manifested lila period but after he kidnapped ISKCON from the real Acarya with the other 10 a like him.
Dear Prabhupadanugas,
Please give me a convincing solution to my doubt. Don’t neglect me like this, since I’m only a newcomer in Krsna Consciousness and trying to put my faith in the correct place after correctly understanding the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness. I want to get complete faith that all the previous acaryas exemplified the philosophy by their own transcendental example. I am not offensively thinking about any acarya.
Please help me. I believe that the people using this site are honest followers of Vaisnavism and so I feel that you can solve my doubts.
Your servant,
Santosh
Dear Prabhupadanugas,
Pamho,Agtsp.
I have a humble question in philosophical understanding.Please help me.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also states that although one is situated as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacari, vanaprastha, grhastha or sannyasi, if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can become a spiritual master as vartma-pradarsaka-guru, diksa-guru or siksa-guru. The spiritual master who first gives information about spiritual life is called the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, the spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the sastras is called the diksa-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the siksa-guru. Factually the qualifications of a spiritual master depend on his knowledge of the science of Krsna. It does not matter whether he is a brahmana, ksatriya, sannyasi or sudra. This injunction given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not at all against the injunctions of the sastras.(Madhya 8.128 )
730822VP.LON Lectures
So I hope that all of you, men, women, boys and girls, become spiritual master, and follow this principle. Spiritual master, simply, sincerely, follow the principles and speak to the general public. Then Krsna immediately becomes your favorite. Krsna does not become your favorite; you become Krsna’s favorite. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, na ca tasmad manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah: “One who is doing this humble service of preaching work, Krsna consciousness, nobody is dearer than him to Me.” So if you want to become recognized by Krsna very quickly, you take up this process of becoming spiritual master, present the Bhagavad-gita as it is. Your life is perfect.
Does that mean that even if one is not a totally liberated mahabhagavata he can accept disciples and become guru,provided he repeats what exactly Krsna has said?Does that mean he need not be a nitya siddha?
But my doubt is—Prabhupada also says that the guru should be worshipped as good as God.But then, is it proper to offer such respects to a conditioned soul, even though he may be strictly following the principles of devotional service and acting as an acarya and benefitting others?
I beg you to clear my doubt with ample scriptural evidence so that I may be able to understand the meaning of ‘guru’ in different contexts.
And please also try to help me with my previous nagging doubts.
Your servant,
Santosh
Dear Santosh,
Hare Krishna. AGTSP. PAMHO.
You have quoted beautiful verses in which every one is encouraged to become Guru. No doubt. Whatever you have heard ( via Sarvanam ) from the authorized source you begin to do the same speaking ( via Kirtanam ) exactly to others in order to introduce to massive people what you have heard. That is what these two verses quoted by you confirms this very sublime process of the Devotional service ( Bhakti Yoga )under the guidance of the bona fide Spiritual master Srila Prabhupada.
Does this mean you accept these people you introduces this principles of KC as your disciple ?
Of course not. Until or unless you are materially motivated and present yourself as such in front of these people as a guru and people begin to accept you as a guru, then, certainly there is a problem in the misrepresentation because you know that you are not well versed qualified authorized Representative of the Acaraya which leads you to become a cheater in the disguise of a guru for your self motivation or agenda. That is not recommended in the verse you quoted. The quote says you simply distribute and direct people towards the principles of cultivating Bhakti Yoga through Nine different process recommended by the Sastras and the present Acarayas. BAS. That is your job.
In that sense one may call oneself guru but not in a sense to accept disciples till you have become Self Realized . That is the point which is commonly misunderstood by so many people. That is what at present it is going on in the present Spiritual Institutions all over the world.. The Cheater is cheating and the people get cheated by following the misrepresentation.
Hope it helps and clarifies you.
Hari BOL…
YS…. Amar Puri.
Santosh wrote:
“Does that mean that even if one is not a totally liberated mahabhagavata he can accept disciples and become guru,provided he repeats what exactly Krsna has said?Does that mean he need not be a nitya siddha?
But my doubt is—Prabhupada also says that the guru should be worshipped as good as God.But then, is it proper to offer such respects to a conditioned soul, even though he may be strictly following the principles of devotional service and acting as an acarya and benefitting others?
I beg you to clear my doubt with ample scriptural evidence so that I may be able to understand the meaning of ‘guru’ in different contexts.
And please also try to help me with my previous nagging doubts.”
Mahesh:
If a father says to his five year old son, “Son BECOME a Brain Surgeon” does it mean he is automatically a Brain Surgeon and start cutting peoples heads? So when Srila Prabhupada says BECOME a guru – this means BY QUALIFICATION. Otherwise why did he write so many books? What are Ten Offenses for?
You can speak EXACTLY as Krsna spoke if Krsna controls your senses – this is on MAHABHAGAVATA stage.
Now, if someone EITHER wants to be a Guru OR if he wants to ACCEPT a Guru there is ZERO option in choosing any other category besides a Maha Bhagavata.
If one becomes a SO CALLED guru OR chooses to accept someone who is NOT a Mahabhagavata then he commits 3rd OFFENCE in chanting which is to DISOBEY the Guru. If they reject this Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya lila Chapter 24 text 330 they REJECT the Guru SRILA PRABHUPADA this means their spiritual life is FINNISHED!
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Notice HOW it is stated Mahabhagavata srestho in the following:
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
maha-bhagavata-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said: gurur nrnam. The word nrnam means “of all human beings.”
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
Note: If you instruct others as that is SIKSA guru so that is an HONEST position for advancing in Krsna Consciousness.
It is best not to accept any disciples:
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
**SCIENCE OF KRISHNA**
Srila Prabhupada diksa guru(paramahamsa)well conversant in science of Krsna.
Accept No Inferior Substitute. Srila Prabhupada is OUR DIKSA guru!
SB 7.13.46
As quoted in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 8.128), Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said:
kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya
yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei ‘guru’ haya
A guru, or spiritual master, can be anyone who is well conversant with the science of Krsna. Therefore although Prahlada Maharaja was a grhastha ruling over the demons, he was a **paramahamsa**, the best of human beings, and **thus he is our guru**.
Note: science means hypothesis, theory then **practical demonstration**.
The 2/3 majority voted IS-CON “gurus” lack practical demonstration.
Therefore they do not know the **complete science** of Krishna.
We know for a fact that Srila Prabhupada(paramahamsa)is the pure devotee who has Krishna TELEVISED in his heart and when a devotee chants offenselessly PURE chanting means Love of Godhead. Srila Prabhupada TRANSMITS Krishna into the Madhyama-adhikaris heart. (see CC antya 4.192-4.194 madhyama-adhikari relishes loving mellows with Krishna). This is diksa.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
SYNONYMS
diksa-kale–at the time of initiation; bhakta–the devotee; kare–does; atma–of himself; samarpana–full dedication; sei-kale–at that time; krsna–Lord Krsna; tare–him; kare–makes; atma-sama–as spiritual as Himself.
TRANSLATION
AT THE TIME OF INITIATION, when a devotee FULLY SURRENDERS UNTO THE SERVICE OF THE LORD, Krsna accepts him to be AS GOOD AS HIMSELF.
Antya 4.193 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
SYNONYMS
sei deha–that body; kare–makes; tara–his; cit-ananda-maya–full of transcendental bliss; aprakrta-dehe–IN THAT TRANSCENDENTAL BODY; tanra–His; carana–feet; bhajaya–worships.
TRANSLATION
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, IN THAT TRANSCENDENTAL BODY, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
SYNONYMS
martyah–the living entity subjected to birth and death; yada–as soon as; tyakta–giving up; samasta–all; karmah–fruitive activities; nivedita-atma–a fully surrendered soul; vicikirsitah–desired to act; me–by Me; TADA–AT THAT TIME; AMRTATVAM–IMMORTALITY; pratipadyamanah–attaining; maya–with Me; atma-bhuyaya–for becoming of a similar nature; ca–also; kalpate–is eligible; vai–certainly.
TRANSLATION
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, AND BECOMES FIT TO ENJOY THE SPIRITUAL BLISS OF EXCHANGE OF LOVING MELLOWS WITH ME.’
PURPORT
THIS IS A QUOTATION FROM SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM (11.29.34). AT THE TIME OF INITIATION, A DEVOTEE GIVES UP ALL HIS MATERIAL CONCEPTIONS. THEREFORE, BEING IN TOUCH WITH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, HE IS SITUATED ON THE TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. THUS HAVING ATTAINED KNOWLEDGE AND THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM, HE ALWAYS ENGAGES IN THE SERVICE OF THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF KRSNA. WHEN ONE IS FREED FROM MATERIAL CONNECTIONS IN THIS WAY, HIS BODY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SPIRITUAL, AND KRSNA ACCEPTS HIS SERVICE. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received SPIRITUAL INITIATION from the spiritual master and has been FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.
760211SB.MAY Lectures
In the madhyama-adhikari he can see four things. What is that? Four things means, first of all the Supreme Lord, isvara, the controller, he can see. He can see means he understands, he appreciates, he can conceive, “Yes, the Supreme Lord is there”. There is no more theoretical.
NBS 2 P Narada-bhakti-sutra
If a person is fortunate enough to vanquish all misgivings caused by material existence and rise up to the stage of nistha, he can then rise to the stages of ruci (taste) and asakti (attachment for the Lord). Asakti is the beginning of love of Godhead. By progressing, one then advances to the stage of relishing a reciprocal exchange with the Lord in ecstasy (bhava). Every living entity is eternally related to the Supreme Lord, and this relationship may be in any one of many transcendental humors. At the stage called asakti, attachment, a person can understand his relationship with the Supreme Lord. When he understands his position, he begins reciprocating with the Lord. By constant reciprocation with the Lord, the devotee is elevated to the highest stage of love of Godhead, prema.
NoI 7
Although maya may be present, it cannot disturb a devotee once he attains the bhava stage. This is because the devotee can see the real position of maya.
Adi 7.83 Lord Caitanya in Five Features
In this verse it is explained that one who chants the Hare Krsna mantra develops bhava, ecstasy, which is the point at which revelation begins. It is the preliminary stage in developing one’s original love for God. Lord Krsna mentions this bhava stage in the Bhagavad-gita (10.8):
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
“I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.”
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“DIKSA IS THE PROCESS by which one can awaken HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE and VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Note: (Svarupa)CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AS THE ETERNAL SERVITOR OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD realized resulting: VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. Karma (fruitive activity) burned up THIS is DIKSA.
Bg 4.19 T Transcendental Knowledge
yasya sarve samarambhah
kama-sankalpa-varjitah
jnanagni-dagdha-karmanam
tam ahuh panditam budhah
SYNONYMS
yasya–one whose; sarve–all sorts of; samarambhah–in all attempts; kama–desire for sense gratification; sankalpa–determination; varjitah–are devoid of; jnana–of perfect knowledge; agni–fire; dagdha–being burnt by; karmanam–the performer; tam–him; ahuh–declare; panditam–learned; budhah–of those who know.
TRANSLATION
One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.
PURPORT
Only a person in full knowledge can understand the activities of a person in Krsna consciousness. Because the person in Krsna consciousness is devoid of all kinds of sense-gratificatory propensities, IT IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT HE HAS BURNED UP THE REACTIONS OF HIS WORK BY PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF HIS CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AS THE ETERNAL SERVITOR OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. He is actually learned who has attained to such perfection of knowledge. DEVELOPMENT OF THIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE ETERNAL SERVITORSHIP OF THE LORD IS COMPARED TO FIRE. SUCH A FIRE, ONCE KINDLED, CAN BURN UP ALL KINDS OF REACTIONS TO WORK.
SB 1.2.21 T Divinity and Divine Service
bhidyate hrdaya-granthis
chidyante sarva-samsayah
ksiyante casya karmani
drsta evatmanisvare
SYNONYMS
bhidyate–pierced; hrdaya–heart; granthih–knots; chidyante–cut to pieces; sarva–all; samsayah–misgivings; ksiyante–terminated; ca–and; asya–his; karmani–chain of fruitive actions; drste–having seen; eva–certainly; atmani–unto the self; isvare–dominating.
TRANSLATION
Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. THE CHAIN OF FRUITIVE ACTIONS IS TERMINATED WHEN ONE SEES THE SELF AS MASTER.
PURPORT
ATTAINING SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD MEANS SEEING ONE’S OWN SELF SIMULTANEOUSLY.
This enlightenment perfectly enables the devotee to distinguish spirit from matter because the knot of spirit and matter is untied by the Lord. This knot is called ahankara, and it falsely obliges a living being to become identified with matter. As soon as this knot is loosened, therefore, all the clouds of doubt are at once cleared off. One sees his master and fully engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, making a full termination of the chain of fruitive action. In material existence, a living being creates his own chain of fruitive work and enjoys the good and bad effects of those actions life after life. BUT AS SOON AS HE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD, HE AT ONCE BECOMES FREE FROM THE CHAIN OF KARMA. HIS ACTIONS NO LONGER CREATE ANY REACTION.
Note: UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART. Krsna is TRANSMITTED from Srila Prabhupada’s heart to the PURE devotee disciples heart. Accepting a faulty bogus guru means no television in heart. Krsna does not go to faulty televison. No diksa!
SB 1.6.33 P Conversation Between Narada and Vyasadeva
The Absolute Personality of Godhead is not different from His transcendental name, form, pastimes and the sound vibrations thereof. As soon as a pure devotee engages himself in the pure devotional service of hearing, chanting and remembering the name, fame and activities of the Lord, at once He becomes VISIBLE TO THE TRANSCENDENTAL EYES of the PURE DEVOTEE by REFLECTING HIMSELF ON THE MIRROR OF THE HEART BY SPIRITUAL TELEVISION. Therefore a pure devotee who is related with the Lord in loving transcendental service can EXPERIENCE THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AT EVERY MOMENT.
SB 2.9.35 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
Therefore, although He is present in every atom, the Supreme Personality of Godhead may not be visible to the dry speculators; still the mystery is unfolded before the eyes of the pure devotees because their eyes are anointed with love of Godhead. And this love of Godhead can be attained only by the practice of transcendental loving service of the Lord, and nothing else. The vision of the devotees is not ordinary; it is purified by the process of devotional service. In other words, as the universal elements are both within and without, similarly the Lord’s name, form, quality, pastimes, entourage, etc., as they are described in the revealed scriptures or as performed in the Vaikunthalokas, far, far beyond the material cosmic manifestation, are factually being televised in the heart of the devotee. The man with a poor fund of knowledge cannot understand, although by material science one can see things far away by means of television. FACTUALLY, THE SPIRITUALLY DEVELOPED PERSON IS ABLE TO HAVE THE TELEVISION OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD ALWAYS REFLECTED WITHIN HIS HEART. THAT IS THE MYSTERY OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.
710907IN.LON Lectures
So the time is up? No. (break) By initiated process one is elevated to the highest position in this material world. Brahmanas’ position, in this material world, is the highest position. So this is a training to come to the brahminical stage. THEN ONE HAS TO SURPASS THAT BRAHMINICAL STAGE ALSO. THAT IS CALLED PURE GOODNESS. BRAHMANA IS GOODNESS, BUT THERE IS CHANCE OF BEING CONTAMINATED WITH PASSION AND IGNORANCE, BECAUSE IT IS MATERIAL WORLD. BUT WHEN (ONE) SURPASSES THAT BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND BECOMES PURE VAISNAVA, THEN KRSNA BECOMES REVEALED TO HIM. THEREFORE KRSNA’S NAME IS VASUDEVA. PURE STAGE OF LIFE IS CALLED VASUDEVA STAGE. JUST LIKE VASUDEVA WAS FATHER OF KRSNA. THAT MEANS WHEN ONE IS SITUATED IN THE VASUDEVA STAGE, SUDDHA-SATTVA, PURE GOODNESS, KRSNA IS BORN. KRSNA BORN MEANS KRSNA BECOMES VISIBLE, REVEALED. So this initiation process is gradually to raise a devotee to that platform.
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was TRANSFERRED FROM THE MIND OF VASUDEVA TO THE MIND OF DEVAKI. DEVAKI, HAVING THUS BEEN INITIATED BY VASUDEVA, BECAME BEAUTIFUL BY CARRYING LORD KRSNA, THE ORIGINAL CONSCIOUSNESS FOR EVERYONE, THE CAUSE OF ALL CAUSES, WITHIN THE CORE OF HER HEART, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Srila Prabhupada is tattva-darsinah(seen Krsna by direct realization). Therefore he is able to **give** the holy name. The holy name is (pure devotee) Srila Prabhupada’s property to give.
ISKCONS GBC 2/3 majority votes “gurus” are not realized souls they CAN NOT TRANSMIT Krsna and his pastimes in anothers HEART. This is why all they performing is: ceremony of first and second initiations—but they want to be worshipped as God which is unacceptable!) Only(Srila Prabhupada as acarya) acarya is worshipped as good as God.
SB 5.15.4
The word anusasmara is very significant. God consciousness is not imaginary or concocted. The devotee who is pure and advanced realizes God as He is. Maharaja Pratiha did so, and due to his **direct realization of Lord Visnu**, he propagated self-realization and became a preacher. A real preacher cannot be bogus; he must first of all realize Lord Visnu as He is. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (4.34), upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah: “one who has seen the truth can impart knowledge.” The word tattva-darsi refers to one who has** perfectly realized** the Supreme personality of Godhead. Such a person can become a guru and propound Vaisnava philosophy all over the world.
ISKCON’S UNAUTHORISED 2/3 majority votes “guru” are C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G!. Infact they are also being cheated because they are losing the opportunity to become fully Krsna Consciousness.
SB 8.6.9
The Vedic mantras say: yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. When the devotee **sees** the Supreme Personality of Godhead by his meditation, or when he **sees** the Lord personally, face to face, he becomes aware of everything within this universe. Indeed, nothing is unknown to him. Everything within this material world is fully manifested to a devotee who has** seen** the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Bhagavad-gita (4.34) therefore advises:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized **soul** can impart knowledge unto you because **he** has seen the truth.”
Lord Brahma is one of these self-realized authorities (svayambhur naradah sambhuh kumarah kapilo manuh). One must therefore accept the disciplic succession from Lord Brahma, and then one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead **in fullness**. Here the word visva-murtau indicates that everything exists in the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who is able to worship Him can see everything in Him and see Him in everything.
Srila Prabhupada is tattva-darsina therefore he is able to deliver Krsna —it is Srila Prabhupada that has realized **the science** of Krsna perfectly!
SB 10.3.14
“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.” Vasudeva begot the Supreme Personality of Godhead, yet he was in full knowledge of how the Supreme Lord appears and disappears. He was therefore tattva-darsi, a seer of the truth, **because he personally saw** how the Supreme Absolute Truth appeared as his son.
Pratyaksvagamam means direct perception—-Krsna is directly
experienced—this is complete science—demonstration! Srila Prabhupada is this personality who is able to give the Holy name because he is well conversant with the science. Srila Prabhupada gives Diksa to the madhyama-adhikari.
Bg 9.2
raja-vidya raja-guhyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam dharmyam
su-sukham kartum avyayam
This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.
Joyfully performed—-when Srila Prabhupada gives diksa to the madhyama-adhikari because he has pleased Srila Prabhupada by offensless chanting, Krishna’s pastimes are also transmitted from Srila Prabhupada’s heart to Madhyam-adhikaris heart. This is Srila Prabhupada giving actual diksa. 2/3 majority votes “gurus” cannot do this! And because they want to cheat they are being cheated themselves with the what Srila Prabhupada has so vividly described in Isopanisad 12 after conducting their **spiritual master business** they are going to the lowest regions of hell.
Bg 9.2
The great devotees relished the taste of unceasing devotional service of the Lord, hearing, chanting, etc., and by developing the same taste, Narada wanted also to hear and chant the glories of the Lord. Thus by associating with the sages, he developed a great desire for devotional service. Therefore, he quotes from the Vedanta-sutra (prakasas ca karmany abhyasat): if one is engaged simply in the acts of devotional service, **everything is revealed to him automatically**, and he can understand. This is called **pratyaksa**, **directly perceived**.
The opportunity to serve as honest ritvik or defiant cheating pretender 2/3 majority votes “guru”: this is the only choice.
Diksa-guru( Srila Prabhupada) well conversant with Krishna science transmits diksa to madhyama-adhikari.
Madhya 8.128
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also states that although one is situated as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacari, vanaprastha, grhastha or sannyasi, if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can become a spiritual master as vartma-pradarsaka-guru, diksa-guru or siksa-guru. The spiritual master who first gives information about spiritual life is called the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, the spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the sastras is called the diksa-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the siksa-guru. Factually** the qualifications** of a spiritual master **depend on his knowledge of the science of Krsna**.
Diksa: transference of Krsna form PURE devotee’s heart to ANOTHER PURE DEVOTEES’s heart this is SCIENCE not theory. Bogus IS_CON and Gaudiya math “gurus” do not have Krsna TELEVISED in their hearts to transfer.
Note: There is NO EVIDENCE AT ALL to date provided by the deviant ISKCON “gurus” who reject July 9th 1977 directive from Srila Prabhupada that Srila Prabhupada can not give diksa to the generations of devotees. ALL they are concerned is with FORMALITY INITIATION which Srila Prabhupada says is NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING:
761016iv.cha Conversations
Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
How The Current Acarya Srila Prabhupada Gives Diksa
Note: Srila Prabhupada is IDENTICAL with his PURPORTS.
SB 1.2.18 P Divinity and Divine Service
Bhagavata book and person are identical.
Adi 1.99 T The Spiritual Masters
eka bhagavata bada—-bhagavata-sastra
ara bhagavata—-bhakta bhakti-rasa-patra
SYNONYMS
eka–one; bhagavata–in relation to the Supreme Lord; bada–great; bhagavata-sastra–Srimad-Bhagavatam; ara–the other; bhagavata–in relation to the Supreme Lord; bhakta–pure devotee; bhakti-rasa–of the mellow of devotion; patra–the recipient.
TRANSLATION
One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.
TEXT 100
TEXT
dui bhagavata dvara diya bhakti-rasa
tanhara hrdaye tanra preme haya vasa
SYNONYMS
dui–two; bhagavata–the bhagavatas; dvara–by; diya–giving; bhakti-rasa–devotional inspiration; tanhara–of His devotee; hrdaye–in the heart; tanra–his; preme–by the love; haya–becomes; vasa–under control.
TRANSLATION
Through the actions of these TWO bhagavatas the Lord instills the mellows of transcendental loving service into the heart of a living being, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
THE POTENCY OF TRANSCENDENTAL SOUND IS NEVER MINIMIZED BECAUSE THE VIBRATOR IS APPARENTLY ABSENT. Therefore SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM or Bhagavad-gita or any revealed scripture in the world is never to be accepted as an ordinary mundane sound without transcendental potency.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
SRILA PRABHUPADA OUR JAGAD DIKSA GURU: LIVING STILL—- IN SOUND! AND IN THIS SOUND HE GIVES DIKSA
750716pc.sf Conversations
Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when
you die?
Prabhupada: I WILL NEVER DIE.
Prabhupada: I SHALL LIVE FROM MY BOOKS, AND YOU WILL UTILIZE.
Note: Srila Prabhupada and his words are on the transcendental platform therefore his PURPORTS TO THE SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM IS THE CURRENT LINK. AS LONG AS WE HAVE PRABHUPADA’S PURPORTS TO THE SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM HE WILL BE OUR CURRENT LINK BECAUSE **THE REAL** MESSAGE OF SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM ARE **HIS** PURPORTS.
SB 2.9.7
As already stated, Brahmä is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the MESSAGE OF SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM IS COMING DOWN BY DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION, and in order to receive THE REAL MESSAGE OF SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM one should approach THE CURRENT LINK, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession.
690113LE.LA Lectures
…vani and vapu, and vapu means the physical body, and vani means the vibration. So we are not concerned about the physical body. Not concerned means… We are concerned, of course, because the spiritual master, those who are acaryas, their body is not considered as materiel. Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
DIKSA THE PROCESS of revealation thru Prabhupada’s books.
74-11-22 Letter: Bahurupa
IN MY BOOKS the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is EXPLAINED FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily THE KNOWLEDGE WILL BE REVEALED TO YOU AND BY THIS PROCESS YOUR SPIRITUAL LIFE WILL DEVELOP.
75-03-14 Letter: Sivani
To take SHELTER of the Spiritual Master MEANS TO FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS.
Note: read Srila Prabhupada’s books associate with him directly
721020ND.VRN Lectures
But in this life, if we develop Krsna consciousness by association of devotees… As Narottama dasa Thakura has sung, tandera carana-sevi-bhakta-sane vasa. One’s aim of life should be to serve the acaryas. Acarya upasanam. So our acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, the sri-rupa sanatana bhatta-raghunatha, sri-jiva gopala-bhatta dasa-raghunatha, the Six Gosvamins, and if we associate with them… this book, Nectar of Devotion, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, if you read regularly, try to understand, this means you are associating with Srila Rupa Gosvami directly. And if you act accordingly, then you are serving their lotus feet.
SB 4.31.2
One desiring perfection or liberation SHOULD ASSOCIATE WITH A PERSON WHO IS ALREADY LIBERATED. THIS IS CALLED SADHU-SANGA, ASSOCIATING WITH A PERFECT DEVOTEE.
EK 4
There are two conceptions of presence–the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal. When we enjoy or relish the vibration of Krsna’s teachings in Bhagavad-gita, or when we chant Hare Krsna, we should know that by those vibrations He is immediately present. He is absolute, and because of this His vibration is just as important as His physical presence. WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION. We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master–then we’ll feel happy and won’t feel separation.
680818SB.MON Lectures
Prabhupada: Oh, that you should not think. If… The words… There are two conceptions: the physical conception and the vibration conception. So physical conception is temporary. The vibration conception is eternal. Just like we are enjoying or we are relishing the vibration of Krsna’s teachings. So by vibration He is present. As soon as we chant Hare Krsna or chant Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata, so He is present immediately by His vibration. He’s absolute. Therefore try to remember His words of instruction; you’ll not feel separation. You’ll feel that He is with you. So we should associate by the vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. Sabdad anavrtti. By sound. Just like we are touching Krsna immediately by sound. Sound vibration. SO WE SHOULD GIVE MORE STRESS ON THE SOUND VIBRATION, EITHER OF KRSNA OR OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. THEN WE’LL FEEL HAPPY AND NO SEPARATION.
CC Concluding Words
Today, Sunday, November 10, 1974–corresponding to the 10th of Kartikka, Caitanya Era 488, the eleventh day of the dark fortnight, the Rama-ekadasi–we have now finished the English translation of Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami’ s Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in accordance with the authorised order of His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Gosvami Maharaja, my beloved eternal spiritual master, guide and friend.
Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association–by vani and by vapu. Vani means words, and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT, BUT VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. THEREFORE WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE. Bhagavad-gita, for example, is the vani of Lord Krsna. Although Krsna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, Bhagavad-gita continues.
75-11-04 Letter: Suci
You have rightly said that the best way to associate with the spiritual master is to follow his instructions. There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present 5,000 years ago and is no longer present physically from the materialistic viewpoint, still Bhagavad-gita continues. So you have correctly concluded.
70-06-22 Letter: Hamsaduta
WE ARE NOT SEPARATED ACTUALLY. There are two–vani or vapu. So vapu is physical presence and vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same. So Krsna when He was physically present before Arjuna is the same when He is present before us by His vani of Bhagavad-gita. So far I am concerned, I do not factually feel any separation from my Spiritual Master because I am trying to serve Him according to His desire. That should be the motto. IF YOU KINDLY TRY TO FULFILL MY MISSION FOR WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN SENT THERE, THAT WILL BE OUR CONSTANT ASSOCIATION.
Note: gold is gold it does not change to iron BONA FIDE means genuine it does NOT lose its genuine feature otherwise it’s a FAKE no falldowns. Time eternal (NITYA SIDDHA). Eternal includes past present and future THIS is Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada IS our BONA FIDE spiritual master. This is Srila Prabhupada. And those who reject him are deviants who are after PERSONAL AGGRANDIZEMENT personal worship, money, followers.
Bg 4.42 P Transcendental Knowledge
A BONA FIDE spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from TIME ETERNAL, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord as they were imparted millions of years ago to the sun-god, from whom the instructions of Bhagavad-gita have come down to the earthly kingdom. One should, therefore, follow the path of Bhagavad-gita as it is expressed in the Gita itself and BEWARE OF SELF-INTERESTED PEOPLE AFTER PERSONAL AGGRANDIZEMENT WHO DEVIATE OTHERS FROM THE ACTUAL PATH.
Note: deviants say (Acarya) Srila Prabhupada is not able to give diksa now.
SB 3.29.17
It is recommended herewith that all the acaryas be given the highest respect. It is stated, gurusu nara-matih. GURUSU MEANS “UNTO THE ACARYAS,” and nara-matih means “thinking like a common man.” To think of the Vaisnavas, the devotees, as belonging to a particular caste or community, to think of the acaryas as ordinary men or to think of the Deity in the temple as being made of stone, wood or metal, IS CONDEMNED.
Adi 7.115
In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih: “One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO BE AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of HELLISH INTELLIGENCE.” One who follows such conclusions is doomed.
Note: formality was to be conducted by representatives of acarya.
Madhya 24.330
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.
Note: Formality of Initiation by representatives as per Madhya 24.330 was to create brahmana’s by Pancaratriki-vidhi process. Then gradually develop to the stage of ACTUAL qualifications of a QUALIFIED brahmana then Vaisnava.
710329BG.BOM Lectures
Our Sanatana Gosvami gives direction in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one man can become a brahmana by the regular process of diksa. Diksa, this initiation, cannot be offered to a sudra. Diksa cannot be offered to a sudra. But in this age, Kali-yuga, it is the statement of the sastras that in the Kali-yuga most of the population are sudras. Kalau sudra sambhavah. How they can be initiated? THIS INITIATION IS OFFERED NOT ACCORDING TO THE VEDIC RULES, BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND OUT A QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. DIKSA IS OFFERED TO A QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. THEREFORE THIS DIKSA IS OFFERED ACCORDING TO PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI. THAT IS RECOMMENDED IN THIS AGE. My spiritual master inaugurated this Pancaratriki-vidhi, and we are following his footsteps. Anyone who is inclined to devote his life for Krsna, he should be accepted as brahmana.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
Regarding Sydney, that the President has left, if one does not follow the regulative principles, then he will leave. That is a fact. Has somebody else been elected? This is the function of the GBC, to see that one may not be taken away by maya. The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Note: this formality was the the function of Ritviks representatives of Acarya (Srila Prabhupada) as per July 9th 1977 letter knowledge DIKSA is given by ACARYA Srila Prabhupada. Even according to Srila Prabhupada’s books front cover it is said ISKCON FOUNDER-ACARYA HIS DIVINE GRACE A C BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA Please note carefully founder HYPEN acarya means Srila Prabhupada is not simply ISKCON’s founder BUT also Its ACARYA **also** –FACT!
761016iv.cha Conversations
Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
Note: Tamal Krsna ADMITS they are CONDITIONED souls in 22 APRIL 1977 and Srila Prabhupada appointed them RITVIK ONLY NOTE: in JULY 9th 1977 this is 3 months must be BIG disappointment they were NOT ACARYA but Ritvik acarya representatives of ACARYA (Srila Prabhupada). The letter was UNREVOKED. So HOW is it Just AFTER Srila Prabhupada passed (IN 4 months November) they appointed themselves “as good as God” Guru(acarya)?. Simple answer conditioned souls CHEAT.
770422r3.bom Conversations
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, “Now you become acarya. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Tamala Krsna: The process of purification must be there.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana. “You become guru.” (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower…
Tamala Krsna: Not rubber stamp.
Prabhupada: Then you’ll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and “guru.” What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff… My Guru Maharaja used to say, “Joint mess,” a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): “Joint mess.” He said this.
Note:If the 2/3 majority votes “gurus” or Gaudiya maths present “gurus” were Acarya “His Divine Graces” (Krishna speaks through them) Why nobody except some sentimental followers are quoting them. This means they are NOT accepted as authority. Everybody QUOTES Srila Prabhupada because everybody knows Krishna speaks through him—-this is why he is **ACCEPTED AS AUTHORITY**. Note all the acaryas are QUOTED by all sections of society Bhaktivinode Thakura , Srila Bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati Thakura, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada because Lord Krsna MANIFESTS in their WORDS. Their words are SCRIPTURE. Others can but talk parrot fashion with no impact. Professional Bhagavatam reciters—bas!
Srila Prabhupada is the PROMINENT acarya as HE is the one who’s books are LAWBOOKS NOW! He is quoted NOW!
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
Srila Prabhupada is the
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.
Note : Srila Prabhupada KNEW of the dangers “THERE IS VERY GREAT UNDERCURRENT” he forbade his disciples from his Godbrothers THIS was the MAIN danger because they were clearly after his disciples,property,reputation and money. Srila Prabhupada was very blunt on the non-acarya position of his Godbrothers “THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH”. He stated they MAY BE Kanistha which means they were unlikey to have even attained the position of Kanistha adhikari what to speak of Acarya (Uttama adhikari/Mahabhagavata/Topmost devotee). Srila Prabhupada KNEW they were IMITATING the role of ACARYA. Srila Prabhupada wanted to protect his disciples and the movement from these sahajiyas.
770527vg.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: You should be very much determined, strong-minded. Otherwise it will slip. Such huge property…
Tamala Krsna: Actually these properties are the envy of all of India. They’re the best properties in each place.
Prabhupada: Not only property. Our prestige, our position… Everything is envied. Everywhere we are first class.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. There’s no rival.
Bhavananda: THERE WILL BE MEN, I KNOW. THERE WILL BE MEN WHO WANT TO TRY AND POSE THEMSELVES AS GURU.
Tamala Krsna: That was going on many years ago. YOUR GODBROTHERS WERE THINKING LIKE THAT. MADHAVA MAHARAJA…
Bhavananda: Oh, yes. Oh, ready to jump.
Prabhupada: Very strong management required and vigilant observation. (background whispering, Tamala Krsna and Bhavananda) So you are foreign…
Gopala Krsna: Beg your pardon?
Prabhupada: You are foreign trained up. And you also idea how to protect our interest.
Gopala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada, I’m always…
Prabhupada: THERE IS VERY GREAT UNDERCURRENT.
Gopala Krsna: I never trusted them much. I know those things. (background whispering, Bhavananda)
75-11-09. Letter: Visvakarma
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated September 3, 1975 with the enclosed statement about Van Maharaja. So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid all of my godbrothers. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY DEALINGS WITH THEM NOR EVEN CORRESPONDENCE, NOR SHOULD THEY GIVE THEM ANY OF MY BOOKS OR SHOULD THEY PURCHASE ANY OF THEIR BOOKS, NEITHER SHOULD YOU VISIT ANY OF THEIR TEMPLES. PLEASE AVOID THEM.
74-04-28. Letter: Rupanuga
You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, AT LEAST HE EXECUTES THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.
Note: the sad part of ISKCON history is Srila Prabhupada’s deviant “disciples” did not listen to him and were polluted: accepted the acarya disease lured by money, followers, adoration the following result awaits their destiny:
Isopanisad 12
The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service–which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead–one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. SUCH VIOLATORS OF RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE AUTHORITATIVE ACARYAS, THE HOLY TEACHERS IN THE STRICT DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. THEY IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–“ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA”–AND KRSNA’S STATEMENT IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (4.2) EVAM PARAMPARA-PRAPTAM, “THIS SUPREME SCIENCE OF GOD IS RECEIVED THROUGH THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. BECAUSE THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS GOVERNMENT, THEY ESCAPE PUNISHMENT BY THE LAW OF THE STATE. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
Note: becoming Vaisnava is not so cheap.
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a QUALIFIED brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. AND BELOW THE BRAHMANA THERE IS NO QUESTION OF VAISNAVA.
Note: For those who do NOT wish to play at being “ as good as God” acarya then there is ample opportunity to QUALIFY as a Brahmana then as Vaisnava to achieve going back to Godhead back home. It is a question of being truthful where we are and progressing onwards march.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
Note: Krsna is the benefactor of the TRUTHFUL devotee means Brahmana quality so if one WANTS to achieve Krsna then Krsna helps. Man is the architect of his fortune and misfortune so either one can accept Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA guru or refuse him this is the choice. Why did the soul come to this material world? because of iccha and the soul can also compete with the acarya Srila Prabhupada (Krsna’s Representative) on equal level thus he is captured in material bondage again.
SB 3.27.20 P Understanding Material Nature
Material bondage is caused by putting oneself under the control of matter because of the false ego of lording it over material nature. Bhagavad-gita (7.27) states, iccha-dvesa-samutthena. Two kinds of propensities arise in the living entity. One propensity is iccha, which means desire to lord it over material nature or to be as great as the Supreme Lord. Everyone desires to be the greatest personality in this material world. Dvesa means “envy.” When one becomes envious of Krsna, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one thinks, “Why should Krsna be the all and all? I’m as good as Krsna.”
SB 1.2.17 T Divinity and Divine Service
srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah
punya-sravana-kirtanah
hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani
vidhunoti suhrt satam
SYNONYMS
srnvatam–those who have developed the urge to hear the message of; sva-kathah–His own words; krsnah–the Personality of Godhead; punya–virtues; sravana–hearing; kirtanah–chanting; hrdi antah sthah–within one’s heart; hi–certainly; abhadrani–desire to enjoy matter; VIDHUNOTI–CLEANSES; SUHRT–BENEFACTOR; SATAM–OF THE TRUTHFUL.
TRANSLATION
Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone’s heart and the BENEFACTOR OF THE TRUTHFUL DEVOTEE, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who has developed the urge to hear His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted.
Note: We are fully aware of Srila Prabhupada’s potency to give diksa thru his books so pretenders especially from the bogus Gaudiya camp and GBC’s IS_CON camp are offenders. The offense described is maryada-vyatikrama.
SB 3.4.26 Vidura Approaches Maitreya
Sri Uddhava said: You may take lessons from the great learned sage Maitreya, who is nearby and who is worshipable for reception of transcendental knowledge. He was directly instructed by the Personality of Godhead while He was about to quit this mortal world.
PURPORT
Although one may be well versed in the transcendental science, one should be careful about the offense of maryada-vyatikrama, or impertinently surpassing a greater personality. According to scriptural injunction one should be very careful of transgressing the law of maryada-vyatikrama because by so doing one loses his duration of life, his opulence, fame and piety and the blessings of all the world. To be well versed in the transcendental science necessitates awareness of the techniques of spiritual science. Uddhava, being well aware of all these technicalities of transcendental science, advised Vidura to approach Maitreya Rsi to receive transcendental knowledge. Vidura wanted to accept Uddhava as his spiritual master, but Uddhava did not accept the post because Vidura was as old as Uddhava’s father and therefore Uddhava could not accept him as his disciple, especially when Maitreya was present nearby. The rule is that in the presence of a higher personality one should not be very eager to impart instructions, even if one is competent and well versed. So Uddhava decided to send an elderly person like Vidura to Maitreya, another elderly person, but he was well versed also because he was directly instructed by the Lord while He was about to quit this mortal world. Since both Uddhava and Maitreya were directly instructed by the Lord, both had the authority to become the spiritual master of Vidura or anyone else, but Maitreya, being elderly, had the first claim to becoming the spiritual master, especially for Vidura, who was much older than Uddhava. One should not be eager to become a spiritual master cheaply for the sake of profit and fame, but should become a spiritual master only for the service of the Lord. The Lord never tolerates the impertinence of maryada-vyatikrama. One should never pass over the honor due to an elderly spiritual master in the interests of one’s own personal gain and fame. Impertinence on the part of the pseudo spiritual master is very risky to progressive spiritual realization.
Note: there are two main offender classes who are envious of Srila Prabhupada’s success and they want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada with themselves as guru.
1) GBC voted false gurus offenders have rejected Srila Prabhupada’s direct UNREVOKED order of July 9th 1977.Thus they are automatically rejected.
2) “ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA.” These are Srila Prabhupada’s own words. This means both this classes are rejected then what remains of their so called disciples!
3) Narayana Maharaja superficially claims to be Srila Prabhupada’s siksa (Instruction) disciple but ignores Srila Prabhupada’s even the most basic instruction of shaving his beard. Srila Prabhupada never approved of this and it is well known. Besides this it is also a fact that Narayana maharaja has been hunting and changing Srila Prabhupada’s disciples names (reinitiation).
NARAYANA MAHARAJA AND SRIDHARA MAHARAJA INSULTED SRILA PRABHUPADA.
From the letter below one can see that history repeats itself because they are conditioned souls they ventured to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Thus, they were caught out as Srila Prabhupada clearly says of the action “SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION.”
68-03-26. Letter: Mukunda
In meantime, I have also received one letter which is very depressing from Hrsikesa. I understand that he has been induced by Bon Maharaja to be initiated by him for giving him shelter, and this foolish boy has accepted his inducement. This isn’t very happy news, and I have replied Hrsikesa’s letter in the following words, which please take note, and in the future, we shall be very cautious about them. “My Dear Hrsikesa, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of March 14, 1968, and I am greatly surprised. I AM GREATLY SURPRISED FOR BON MAHARAJA’S INITIATING YOU IN SPITE OF HIS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE ALREADY INITIATED BY ME. SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. I very much appreciate your acknowledgement of my service unto you and you will always have my blessings, BUT YOU MUST KNOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMITTEE. A GREAT BLUNDER. I do not wish to discuss on this point more elaborately now, but if you are desirous to know further about it, I shall be glad to give you more enlightenment. Mukunda is not here. He has gone to L.A. Hope you are well.” If Hrsikesa writes you letter I think you may avoid reply. I DO NOT APPROVE BOTH HRSIKESA’S AND BON MAHARAJA’S THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. Hoping you are both well.
Note: In venturing to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples —they could not even have understood the philosophy properly. As It is clearly stated: A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. For them to Initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples they would be falling into a trap of REJECTING Srila Prabhupada as the Initiating Guru—DIRECT INSULT—committed BOTH by the so-called disciple of Srila Prabhupada and their conditioned soul guides (Narayana Maharaja or Sridhara Maharaja).
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN.
GUIDE FOR THE SRILA PRABHUPADA’S SAMADHI CEREMONY—-ONLY!!
77100R2.VRN
Prabhupada: Do you think in this stage is it possi
The May 28th tapes says that when they deviate they will have to be replaced, clearly this is not an appointment of gurus. At the same time it appears to me that several conversations were spliced together, since there are many missing tapes from that era and the whole conversation seems so convoluted. And we do know they were splicing tapes in 1978. At the same time, one becomes guru when he is ordered, but no order is given. At the same time, 11 names are not given, and so forth. sorry, Tamal is correct, no gurus were ever appointed, and had the May 28th tape appointed gurus, then Srila Prabhupada would have spoken about that for the next 30 days to clarify how this would be installed in his mission.
As for Santosh, do not read these bogus Gaudiya Matha sites in the first place. That is the real solution to your problem. ys pd
Puranjana Prabhu has made a valid point :”The May 28th tapes says that when they deviate they will have to be replaced, clearly this is not an appointment of gurus”
You can replace a CONDITIONED soul who is Ritvik. The appointment was of Ritviks BUT you can NOT replace a BONAFIDE Guru as per Madhya Lila Ch24 text 330 (Mahabhagavata). Mahabhagavata does NOT falldown. He has Krsna’s protection:
Madhya 22.71 The Process of Devotional Service
There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach.
Note: Even Brahma does not falldown as this incidence was in a particular Kalpa where he had NOT been blessed. After hearing Bhagavatam he was blessed by the Lord:
SB 3.12.28 P Creation of the Kumaras and Others
Balavan indriya-gramo vidvamsam api karsati (Bhag. 9.19.17). It is said that the senses are so mad and strong that they can bewilder even the most sensible and learned man. Therefore it is advised that one should not indulge in living alone even with one’s mother, sister or daughter. Vidvamsam api karsati means that even the most learned also become victims of the sensuous urge. Maitreya hesitated to state this anomaly on the part of Brahma, who was sexually inclined to his own daughter, but still he mentioned it because sometimes it so happens, and the living example is Brahma himself, although he is the primeval living being and the most learned within the whole universe. If Brahma could be a victim of the sexual urge, then what of others, who are prone to so many mundane frailties? This extraordinary immortality on the part of Brahma was heard to have occurred in some particular kalpa, but it could not have happened in the kalpa in which Brahma heard directly from the Lord the four essential verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam because the Lord blessed Brahma, after giving him lessons on the Bhagavatam, that he would never be bewildered in any kalpa whatsoever. This indicates that before the hearing of Srimad-Bhagavatam he might have fallen a victim to such sensuality, but after hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam directly from the Lord, there was no possibility of such failures.
The greedy “disciples” were after money, power,property and disciples so they manipulated spliced Tapes.
They wanted somehow to get rid of Srila Prabhupada so they they even hid July 9th 1977 appointment of Ritviks Order and Srila Prabhupada’s Will where he makes it clear any future appointed director must be Srila Prabhupada’s INITIATED disciple.
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)
Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:
1)”..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
2)“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
The question is can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!
So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa?
Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is in MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge. What you do NOT have you can NOT give. And it is Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.
Definition of Diksa:
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
divyam jnanam yato dadyat
kuryat papasya sanksayam
tasmad dikseti sa prokta
desikais tattva-kovidaih
“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity
Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION GIVE DIKSA -BY WHICH- ONE BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:
Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.
Q2) If a Brahmana(Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?
Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination
Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?
Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
PURPORT
This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:
dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya
“A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”
Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)
In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
jnana-vijnana-santosah
satyastikye dvisad gunah
“Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”
730828BG.LON Lectures
So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA – AUTOMATICALLY.
Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he is becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.
Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births – NOT so cheap.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
TRANSLATION
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
TEXT 193
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
TRANSLATION
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
TEXT 194
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
TRANSLATION
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 – Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport – Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?
Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.
‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.
When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.
Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Dear Mahesh,
To add to your wonderful scholarship, I deduce that within Iskcon, the ritvik system was a means to empower pure Madhyama’s (and perhaps a pure neophyte) to accept siksa disciples of their own level. That siksa would mainly take the form of passing on guidance as to how to conduct their sadhana.
The blessing of a regional ritvik would authorize ANY devotee qualified to do so, to perform the initiation sacrifice. The diksa mantras they transfer to the new person are empowered at the uttama level (a level higher than their own adhikari or realization) simply because they were following the order’s of the ritvik represenative of an uttama (Srila Prabhupada).
Therefore, the new person, under general daily guidance (sadhana) of a qualified Madhyam or Neophyte could easily rise up to the level of the one they are receiving that guidance from.
Further more, by accepting guidance from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books, lectures, and conversations, in order to apply instructions applicable to their individual situation as well as advance in knowledge of scripture in general, the person could perhaps surpass the adhikari of the devotees that brought them to the movement, becoming uttama before those devotees themselves.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Mark and Mahesh Prabhus,
Hare Krishna, AGTSP. PAMHO.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
“The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.”
From the instructions of Srila Prabhupada quote mentioned above, we read very clearly when Srila Prabhupada says; “This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.”
That one must come to the platform of instructing what Srila Prabhupada is doing. Srila Prabhupada instructs everyone selflessly having no material desire of any sort. This is the key point and Srila Prabhupada expects any one and every one must actually come to this platform.
This is what he expects and wants first from all of his disciples including the GBC. Since this instructions particularly relate and address to the GBC to come to that platform first in order to become the instructor gurus, therefore, one can see that at that time the GBC were not even qualified at that platform Srila Prabhupada expected. Since this simply demonstrates that these GBC leaders were so personally motivated to become guru by hook or crook, therefore, Srila Prabhupada clearly states that, “This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.”
This was the warning. Did the GBC take the heed? NO. Not at all. Why, because they were blinded with their own personal motivation to become guru. That Srila Prabhupada knew it as he expressed explicitly in his instructions of the quote mentioned above. More later.
Hari BOL.
YS…. Amar Puri.
Hare Krsna.
I think the way the Scripture has been interpreted by the ritvik supporters and the Gbc that emphasisies the exclusive nature of the Diksa Guru is wrong. The way that the evidence is used illustrates that what ever motive we have in our mind that we want to push as a perfect conclusion is also wrong.
For example the publication from the ritvik supporters and the ritvik ideology is that Srila Prabhupada is Our Diksa guru illustrates their motivation and pre concieved conclusion.
But if we act and read in a transparent way the conclusions are different.
The example from Cc 24.330 does not conclude that the Diksa Guru has to be worshipped as good as God, the words from that purport dont even use the words Diksa Guru. That conclusion is a ritvik wishful thought.
“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class.”
The first part of this indicates the Guru must be Uttama-Adhikari but does not stipulate which Guru.
Then the second part indicates a disciple must accept an Uttama as his Guru. Again there is no stipulation as to which Guru this is. Srila Prabhupada does not say it must be the Diksa Guru as do the ritviks and the Gbc that is intepretation.
“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a Guru.” (Madhya-lila 24.330)
Again in this portion Srila Prabhupada does not designate this Guru to be only the Diksa Guru as ritviks and the Gbc say, that is a wrong conclusion. And the emphasisied word in the ritvik publication “The Final Order” does not mean “every”. Gurus can be included from every platform of devotional service. In NOI Text 5 Srila Prabhupada instructs that every class of Adhikara are able to accept disciples.
Another fallacy that is also repeated in ritvik supporters writings is how they undermine the Shiksa Guru as if He is secondary to the Diksa Guru per se in a constant way.
The Diksa Guru and the Shiksa Guru are equal plenary part manifestations of the Supreme truth. They are identical because both of them are phenomenal manifestations of the Supreme Truth.
The Initiating and Instructing Spiritual masters are equal and identical manifestations of Krsna, although They have different dealings. Their function is to guide the conditioned souls back home back to Godhead.
These statements are from Cc Adi-lila 1.
This clear statement really trips up the ritvik ideology very cleverly. The dealings of the Shiksa Guru and Diksa Guru are different. But the ritviks have come under the idea that they can have a relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared through the function of Diksa Guru. But the dealings are different between the Diksa Guru and the Shiksa Guru and they are different when they are physically present and when they are not physically present but again the ritviks dont distinguish between the different types of dealings and the different phases of physically present and physically disapeared. But clearly there is a difference in the dealings, period.
And just down the road a bit in Cc Srila Prabhupada denotes this difference in relationship by stating the relationship with Lord Krsna, 1.47 purport.
“Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami states that the Instructing Spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna Himself teaches us as the Instructing Spiritual Master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion and from without he teaches from Bhagavad-Gita as the Instructing Spiritual master..”
Our relationship with Lord Krsna in His Book form of Bhagavad-Gita is as Shiksa Guru, Instructing Spiritual Master not Diksa guru. And our relationship with Srila Prabhupada in His Book form is also Shiksa Guru, Instructing Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada is not Our Diksa Guru in His Book form that is an incorrect conclusion.
And again from Srila Prabhupada’s evidence in His Book form from S. Bhagavatam 4.28.47.
“The disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani. Physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.”
This perfectly encapsulates both the concepts of the different relationships with the Spiritual master when He is physically present and then when He is not physically existing. The relationships are different. And here we find that when the spiritual master is not physically existing Srila Prabhupada Instructs that a disciple should serve the Instructions of the spiritual master. Therefore it’s perfectly clear from these Instructions of Srila Prabhupada that the dealings of the Instructing Spiritual Master and the Initiating Spiritual Master are different depending on whether the Spiritual master is physically present or not and He clarifys this to the point of the difference in that relationship when he is physically present and when He is not physically present. It is not all one, it is perfectly different.
The relationship with the Diksa Guru is not the same as the relationship with the Shiksa Guru but both Spiritual masters can deliver the process to the disciple equally.
“It is the duty of the Shiksa Guru or the Diksa Guru to instruct a disciple in the right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process. According to Sastric injunctions , there is no difference between the Shiksa Guru and the Diksa Guru, and generally the Shiksa Guru later on becomes the Diksa Guru.”
S. Bhagavatam 4.12.32
Marvellously Srila prabhupada illustrates the equality of the Shiksa Guru and the Diksa Guru in many ways in this example. And depending on the disciples ability to execute the process will prove how effective that discipleship is.It does not mean that the Shiksa Guru is not equal to the Diksa Guru and it does not mean that the Diksa Guru is exclusive as indicated by the ritvik supporters continually in their publication “Srila Prabhupada; Our Diksa Guru”.
In fact as Instructed by Srila Prabhupada that when He has physically stopped existing the disciple must only serve His instructions, vani. This is the relationship period that iskcon has entered into with Srila Prabhupada and this relationship in vani is eternal and crucially a direct relationship that does not include interveneing representatives as illustrated very clearly in “The Final Order” under the title “Related Objections” part 14.
your servant, dusyanta dasa.
First of all, the diksha gurus are absorbring the sins of their aspirant disciples, ok like Jesus is absorbing sins. Srila Prabhupada told us repeatedly in India: “Do not allow others to touch your feet or you will be acting as a guru, you will be absorbing their sins, and you will get very sick or fall down from taking their sins, which you are not qualified to absorb.” So when a neophyte tries to absorb sins like Jesus is doing, he is already fallen because he is denying these warnings.
The good news is that these gurus are in fact falling like flies into scandals, and others are getting sick all the time, for example some of them have major heart problems, strokes, headaches, diseases of all types and many are dying off, like Tamal, Gaura Govinda, Suhotra, Kirtanananda, Jayatirtha and others are dead, and some of them are even fallen into eating meat, some of them hate Krishna openly, and many of the rest of them are very sickly.
So this is very nice, those who try to imitate Jesus are getting their karma and I say, goody on that! Yes, only a fool thinks he can by-pass the direct orders of his guru and think he is the next sin absorbing Jesus on the planet, neophytes cannot be the next Jesus, this is impossible. Its all foolishness, and yet despite they are getting sick and dying and having constant scandals, they march onward, which proves, “fools rush in where angels fear to tread,” but since they are falling apart in so many ways, they are making it easy for us to expose their whole bogus Jesus scam. ys pd
dusyanta dasa Prabhu,
Hare Krishna. AGTSP. PAMHO.
Is Srila Prabhupada not present through his Instructions (Vani ) ? Has Srila Prabhupada not said that when asked by devotees that Srila Prabhupada when you are not around how one has to be get the answer to the questions and Srila Prabhupada replied that every things are in his BOOKS ? Simply one has to read and re-read to get the answer. Is this not a FACT ? A qualified Siksha guru gives the Diksha later on. Is this not a FACT ? So where is the difference between the Siksha Guru and Disksha Guru ? The quote you presented re-affirms exactly that. Please read carefully ; ” “It is the duty of the Shiksa Guru or the Diksa Guru to instruct a disciple in the right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process. According to Sastric injunctions , there is no difference between the Shiksa Guru and the Diksa Guru, and generally the Shiksa Guru later on becomes the Diksa Guru.”
S. Bhagavatam 4.12.32
Therefore, Srila Prabhupada Books are the Law Books for the future because Srila Prabhupada Books, Tape, VANI etc. give Siksha to every one and later on gives Diksha to the serious and sincere Initiate in the Devotional Service. Thus, Srila Prabhupada is the Siksha and Diksha Guru. Where is your problem to accept it ? Your assumptions are totally misled and contradictory when you write as such ; ” The relationship with the Diksa Guru is not the same as the relationship with the Shiksa Guru but both Spiritual masters can deliver the process to the disciple equally.”
By the way, there is no such evidence found in the verse 4.28.47 Srimad Bhagavatam quoted by you ;
And again from Srila Prabhupada’s evidence in His Book form from S. Bhagavatam 4.28.47.
“The disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani. Physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.”
Please I beg from you do not try to mislead any one ever, NEVER.
Hope it meets you well in your KC.
Hari BOL….
YS….. Amar Puri.
“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a Guru.” (Madhya-lila 24.330)
Duysanta says:
“Again in this portion Srila Prabhupada does not designate this Guru to be only the Diksa Guru as ritviks and the Gbc say, that is a wrong conclusion.”
Mahesh: I have only taken just a small section of his rambling to expose just HOW IGNORANT Duysanta dasa is on the subject of WHICH category gives DIKSA.
He just does NOT get it that ONLY Mahabhagavata is CAPABLE TO GIVE Divya-jnana hrde prakasito:
1) Divya Jnana is Transcendental Knowledge (DIKSA). If you DO NOT have you can NOT give it. FAULTY TELEVISION = NO SEE KRSNA IN HEART.
2) FACT :Transcendental Knowledge comes from TRANSCENDENTAL person ie Uttama Adhikari(Mahabhagavata)
3) As shown previously IN DETAIL in the same thread Kanistha( QUALIFIED brahmana) is NOT on Transcendenal Platform hence he can NOT transmit
T-R-A-N-S-C-E-N-D-E-N-T-A-L KNOWLEDGE. And THIS is COMMON-SENSE ANYBODY can see. BUT Duysanta dasa does NOT get it. Such a SIMPLE issue –and he is SOOOOO ignorant he can not even grasp this much.
770401LE.BOM Lectures
So what is that verse? Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. Just recite that. (Indians repeat) Before that. (prema-bhakti yaha hoite, avidya vinasa yate) So the necessity is prema-bhakti. Prema-bhakti yaha hoite, avidya vinasa yate, divya-jnana. So what is that divya-jnana? Divya means transcendental, not material. Tapo divyam. Divyam means we are combination of matter and spirit. That spirit is divya, transcendental. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para. That is para prakrti, superior. If there is the superior identity… And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jnana. Divya-jnana. AND BECAUSE GURU ENLIGHTENS THAT DIVYA-JNANA, HE IS WORSHIPED.
730222SB.AUC Lectures
Prabhupada: Diksa, diksa. Di… Divya. There are two words, divya-jnana. DIVYA-JNANA MEANS TRANSCENDENTAL, SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE. SO DIVYA IS DI, AND JNANAM, KSAPAYATI, EXPLAINING, THAT IS KSA, DI-KSA. THIS IS CALLED DIKSA, diksa, the combination. So diksa means the initiation to begin transcendental activities.
NOTE: your SVARUPA (constitutional position) as servant of Krsna is WHAT diksa is about. That is revealed in the heart Divya-jnana hrde prokasito via Srila Prabhupada. Kanistha can NOT give this and MADHYAMA is the RECEPIENT. Therefore MAHABHAGAVATA (Srila Prabhupada) BONAFIDE DIKSA Guru is OUR ONLY shelter.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: DIVYA-JNANA HRDE PROKASITO. What is that divya-jnana? DIVYA-JNANA IS THAT WE ARE ALL SERVANT OF KRSNA, AND OUR ONLY BUSINESS IS TO SERVE KRSNA. DIVYA-JNANA. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “NOW LET ME BECOME SERVANT OF KRSNA.” THIS IS DIVYA-JNANA. DIKSA. DIKSA MEANS FROM THIS DIVYA-JNANA. THAT IS DI. AND KSA MEANS KSAPAYATI, EXPANDS.
Let the lunatics worship their own kind and go to hell – WE urge devotees to worship Srila Prabhupada as OUR DIKSA GURU.
SB 1.19.37 P The Appearance of Sukadeva Gosvami
The pseudo spiritual master flatters the so-called disciple, and thereby both the master and his ward go to hell without a doubt.
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them.
Iso 12
These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
Bg 16.4 P The Divine And Demoniac Natures
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority.
Note: ALL the discipline is coming from Srila Prabhupada 16 rounds 4 regs etc so HOW can they be another’s disciple?
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Stealing Srila Prabhupda’s(PURE BRAHMANA VAISNAVA) disciples have very grave consequences:
KB 64 The Story of King Nrga
Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A person who takes away property which has either been awarded to a brahmana or given away by him is condemned to live for at least 60,000 years as miserably as an insect in stool. Therefore I instruct you, all My boys and relatives present here, do not, even by mistake, take the possession of a brahmana and thereby pollute your whole family. If someone even wishes to possess such property, let alone attempts to take it away by force, the duration of his life will be reduced. He will be defeated by his enemies, and after being bereft of his royal position, when he gives up his body he will become a serpent.
ADDITIONAL FACT is there was NO ORDER from Srila Prabhupada they are GURU:
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WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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CC 24.330
maha-bhagavata—first-class devotee; sresthah—topmost platform; brahmanah—a brahmana; vai—generally; guruh—guru, spiritual master; nrnam—of all human beings; sarvesam—for each and every one; eva—certainly; lokanam—of all people; asau—that; pujyah—worshipable; yatha—as much as; harih—the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna; maha-kula—great family; prasutah—born; api—even if; sarve—all; yajnesu—in the performances of yajna, sacrifice; diksitah—initiated by a bona fide spiritual master; sahasra—thousand; sakhadhyayi—branches, chapters (of Vedic literature); ca—and; na—never; guruh—guru; syat—is; avaisnavah—not a devotee of Krsna;
Actually the purport after this verse is the translation to this sloka from the Padma Purana. Until the end of the sentence, “He also understands the Vedic sastras,” which is a brief translation of sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca.
After this sentence Prabhupada gives his purport to the verse CC 24.330.
It is quite complex to translate accurately the Padma Purana quote into English in just a few sentences. Thus Srila Prabhupada has brilliantly elaborated for our better understanding.
It is certainly referring to diksa as confirmed by the Padma Purana quote and contextual evidence. Srila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura also confirms this is so, in his book Sri Bhaktyaloka – (The Six Faults and Qualities of Bhakti). In the 2nd part, Six Qualities that Enhance Bhakti. Chapter 10: Tat-tat-karma-pravartana.
770416rc.bom Conversations
Tamala Krsna: In what way does the spiritual master become…?
Prabhupada: Well, this is then something.(?)
Tamala Krsna: He has to work very hard on behalf of the disciple…
Prabhupada: No. To accept his sinful reaction.
Tamala Krsna: He does that?
Prabhupada: It is not easy job to become a spiritual master. Yes. Then when it is overloaded, you’ll suffer.
Tamala Krsna: Krsna transfers the sinful reaction unto the spiritual master from the disciple.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Why? Is it because there will be such a heavy…?
Prabhupada: Krsna says… That is the principle. This is, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. “You have to take all the sinful reactions.” This is the principle, that Krsna is God. He can nullify everything. But I am not God. When it is overloaded, I have to suffer. This is the principle that the Christian idea that Christ takes.
Examples of suffering: Suhotra swami (CONDITIONED SOUL) he was found dead in Mayapura LAVATORY. So what was his consciousness? Out of all the places that too in MAYAPURA he had to leave his body in a TOILET. Tamal Krsna (conditioned soul) was killed in accident thrown through a windscreen in 4 wheel Sumo head-first. His body they showed covered his head. Rigor mortice had set in and so they could not fold the body in sitting posture – and they made “samadhi” for his worship. Bhagavad Gita says those in mode of ignorance worship the dead and ghosts.
Satsvarupa he has mental problems. Others have diseases and medical issues.
The point is it is NOT advised to accept disciples unless one is on Mahabhagavata stage:
It is best not to accept any disciples
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Srila Prabhupada has made it so simple for us to follow BUT because there are people who are after cheap adoration,money,followers etc they want to compete with Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru. The result is they suffer VERY heavily. So much so that because they are ENVIOUS of Srila Prabhupada’s unique position of Diksa Guru that they will have to rotate in TRILLIONS of BIRTHS of suffering in demoniac speices of life:
Bg 16.19 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
tan aham dvisatah kruran
samsaresu naradhaman
ksipamy ajasram asubhan
asurisv eva yonisu
SYNONYMS
tan–those; aham–I; dvisatah–envious; kruran–mischievous; samsaresu–into the ocean of material existence; nara-adhaman–the lowest of mankind; ksipami–put; ajasram–innumerable; asubhan–inauspicious; asurisu–demoniac; eva–certainly; yonisu–in the wombs.
TRANSLATION
Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.
PURPORT
In this verse it is clearly indicated that the placing of a particular individual soul in a particular body is the prerogative of the supreme will. The demoniac person may not agree to accept the supremacy of the Lord, and it is a fact that he may act according to his own whims, but his next birth will depend upon the decision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not on himself. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Third Canto, it is stated that an individual soul, after his death, is put into the womb of a mother where he gets a particular type of body under the supervision of superior power. Therefore in the material existence we find so many species of life–animals, insects, men, and so on. All are arranged by the superior power. They are not accidental. As for the demoniac, it is clearly said here that they are perpetually put into the wombs of demons, and thus they continue to be envious, the lowest of mankind. Such demoniac species of life are held to be always full of lust, always violent and hateful and always unclean. They are just like so many beasts in a jungle.
THIS is JUSTICE. Compete with Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru and you get your due.
That is correct, diksha means “di” = pure divyam jnanam, and “ksha” means to protect from sins, and /or to remove, purify and absorb the sins, ok like Jesus does. Dusyanta and others apparently think non-realized persons can function in the capacity of someone like Jesus, and absorb sins like Jesus. Sorry, this is not possible for someone who is not fully self realized. And this leads to so many other deviations, like offering bhogha to conditioned souls and so on. Sorry, only a person on the level of an uttama adhikary give pure jnanam, and can takes sins, i.e. diksha and — can have bhogha offered to them and so on and so forth. Otherwise we are encouraging imitations, and has not anyone noticed how badly that is going? It does not work, plain and simple. Perverting, watering down and distorting the word diksha does not make real diksha, it makes havoc and mayhem in the name of diksha gurus. ys pd
In reply to Madhavananda prabhu’s first question, the ritvik system was not meant to end when Srila Prabhupada left this world but was meant to continue thereafter with officiating acaryas conducting initiations, first and second.
Srila Prabhupada was asked how initiations would be conducted in the future, particularly at that time when he would no longer be with us. His answer was that he would recommend some of his disciples to act as officiating acaryas. I think you will agree that the meaning of this exchange is that when Srila Prabhupada would no longer be present, officiating acaryas would be giving diksa.
The conversation took an interesting twist when a devotee mentioned that they would be giving diksa on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf. Srila Prabhupada’s answer to this proposal was that in his presence (during his lifetime), one should not become guru by initiating disciples of his own, “so on my behalf.” So, anyone receiving diksa while Srila Prabhupada was present in physical form would be considered his direct disciple.
We can see that in the July 9th letter, the term “officiating acarya” was not introduced. That term, as mentioned above, was supposed to be introduced only after Srila Prabhupada had entered maha-samadhi. That the GBC ignored this instruction given by the spiritual master, replacing it with their own interpretation of the role of the guru, was their great failing. During his lifetime, though, those conducting initiations on his behalf were to be referred to as “rittik – representative of the acarya.”
The GBC never implemented by resolution Srila Prabhupada’s call to have officiating acaryas give diksa when he would no longer be present. It goes without saying that they also never discussed what would be the role of the officiating acarya and what authority and responsibility he would have by dint of giving diksa. Instead, the movement has been plagued with non-parallel lines of authority which it is still struggling with after thirty-five years of misinterpretion of the order of the founder acarya.
The word “acarya” qualified by the word “officiating” does not mean “has no disciples of his own.” Rather it means the initiator can only act if he is transparent to the founder acarya, and that his authority is not absolute. He is also not necessarily on the uttama platform of realization. His qualification is that he is fully surrendered at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.
I believe the FDG issue is easily resolved by implementing these protocols. The mataji who is preaching to her students recommends them for initiation to an officiating acarya. Upon her recommendation, and after passing an examination, the officiating acarya can accept those disciples officially and formally activate their connection to our sampradaya. Because he is “officiating” and not taking charge of their lives, their instruction will continue under the tutelage of a senior vaisnavi and their relationship with Srila Prabhupada as their eternal spiritual master shall not be obstructed. The whole idea is that whoever is conducting initiations should have the qualifications of a regular guru. Otherwise, the initiation process will be short-circuited.
At the same time the managerial structure of ISKCON should not be undermined, as it has been, with so many gurus giving different guidelines to their many disciples as they attempt to act as jagat guru with followers all over the world. Although these disciples are expected to surrender to their gurus, they may rarely if ever have a chance to associate with them personally. It is essential that to cross over the ocean of material attraction, one must surrender to a maha-bhagavata devotee and be guided every step of the way. That is where Srila Prabhupada and his books enter the picture. “The vaisnava is living still in sound,” and we can associate with him through vani seva. In the above example, both the instructor and the initiator must preach surrender to the eternal spiritual master. That is the unifying principle of our movement, and this is how the many issues that disturb the tranquility of our vaisnava society can be resolved.
Dear Locanananda Prabhu, on this day 43 years ago (December 26, 1969), I saw Srila Prabhupada in person for the first time. Even though I was still just a karmi, I was the only one who tape recorded the blissful initiation lecture that he gave that morning. That original tape now resides with the Bhaktivedanta Archives, Sandy Ridge, North Carolina, USA. In that lecture, Prabhupada said, “[Kṛṣṇa consciousness] is simple for the simple, but it is very hard for the crooked.”
Please read http://rtvik.com/ very carefully and then ask yourself which category you fall into: the simple or the crooked.”
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.I am especially grateful to Mahesh Raja Prabhu and Puranjana dasa Prabhu for their kindness in answering my question. Now I think I’m convinced that I have to accept Srila Prabhupada as my sole spiritual master.
But I have another small question–Are the formalities of initiation,like receiving the sacred brahminical thread, important or not(for going back to Godhead)?Srila Prabhupada says that without receiving the sacred thread, one cannot worship the Holy Name properly. Also I am now a college student in India. In my capacity, I am only able to rise early, chant 16 rounds and read Bhagavad Gita for 30-60 minutes. Rest of my time goes in academics. Then, what is the time for formal initiation and how is this initiation possible,since I don’t think there are many proper representatives of Srila Prabhupada.
I will be very happy if someone can help me in this regard.
Your servant,
Santosh
There seems among new generation of Vaishnavas a colossal misunderstanding about the time when Srila Prabhupada was physically present. Prabhupada kept things very simple. Devotees learned from those who were more experienced. Those who seemed most qualified became Temple presidents. There were no siksa-gurus. If someone emerged to be expert in doing something he/she would instruct others. Everything went on behalf of Prabhupada. Since Prabhupada was most of the time always travelling there is practically no difference right now. Prabhupada wanted in his absence everything to go on as ever.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupada: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
(May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada says that guru should be accepted from the topmost platform of devotional service, and also we are saying that if one honestly functions as a normal siksha guru,it is okay.
But the siksha guru is also ‘guru’,right,according to the terminology?
Please try to clear this question……why is the term ‘guru’ added to siksha, if the person may not be mahabhagavat.?This question may be silly, but please help me to strengthen my understanding.
Your servant,
Santosh
Santosh wrote:
“But I have another small question–Are the formalities of initiation,like receiving the sacred brahminical thread, important or not(for going back to Godhead)?Srila Prabhupada says that without receiving the sacred thread, one cannot worship the Holy Name properly”
Santosh Prabhu, what Srila Prabhupada actually states is:
ACTUALLY ONE WHO TAKES TO CHANTING HARE KRSNA MANTRA OFFENSELESSLY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SITUATED TRANSCENDENTALLY AND THEREFORE HE HAS NO NEED OF BEING INITIATED WITH SACRED THREAD, BUT GURU MAHARAJA INTRODUCED THIS SACRED THREAD BECAUSE A VAISNAVA WAS BEING MISTAKEN AS BELONGING TO THE MATERIAL CASTE
Now you consider, many persons received sacred thread from Srila Prabhupada but some are doing nonsense. Sacred thread is not a gurantee for Back to Godhead but chanting Hare Krsna PURE is. Offenseless chanting gets you liberation and PURE chanting you get LOVE OF GOD.
70-11-14. Letter: Acyutananda
During my Guru Maharaja’s time, even a person was coming from a brahmana family, he was initiated according to the pancaratrika system taking him to be a sudra. So the birthright brahmanism is not applicable at the present moment. The sacred thread inaugurated by my Guru Maharaja according to pancaratrika system and Hari-bhakti-vilasa by Srila Sanatana Goswami must continue. It does not matter whether the priestly class accepts it or not. When my Guru Maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada introduced this system, it was protested even by His inner circle of Godbrothers or friends. Of course He had actually no Godbrothers, but there were many disciples of Bhaktivinode Thakura who were considered as Godbrothers who protested against this action of my Guru Maharaja, but He didn’t care for it.
ACTUALLY ONE WHO TAKES TO CHANTING HARE KRSNA MANTRA OFFENSELESSLY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SITUATED TRANSCENDENTALLY AND THEREFORE HE HAS NO NEED OF BEING INITIATED WITH SACRED THREAD, BUT GURU MAHARAJA INTRODUCED THIS SACRED THREAD BECAUSE A VAISNAVA WAS BEING MISTAKEN AS BELONGING TO THE MATERIAL CASTE. To accept a Vaisnava in material caste system is hellish consideration (naraki buddhi). Therefore, to save the general populace from being offender to a Vaisnava, He persistently introduced this sacred thread ceremony and we must follow His footsteps.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING
Madhya 15.110 T The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
akrstih krta-cetasam sumanasam uccatanam camhasam
acandalam amuka-loka-sulabho vasyas ca mukti-sriyah
no diksam na ca sat-kriyam na ca purascaryam manag iksate
mantro ‘yam rasana-sprg eva phalati sri-krsna-namatmakah
SYNONYMS
akrstih–attraction; krta-cetasam–of saintly persons; su-manasam–of the most liberal-minded; uccatanam–annihilator; ca–also; amhasam–of sinful reactions; a-candalam–even to the candalas; amuka–except the dumb; loka-sulabhah–very easy to achieve for all persons; vasyah–full controller; ca–and; mukti-sriyah–of the opulence of liberation; no–not; diksam–initiation; na–not; ca–also; sat-kriyam–pious activities; na–not; ca–also; purascaryam–regulative principles before initiation; manak–slightly; iksate–depends upon; mantrah–mantra; ayam–this; rasana–tongue; sprk–touching; eva–simply; phalati–is fruitful; sri-krsna-nama-atmakah–consisting of the holy name of Lord Krsna.
TRANSLATION
” ‘The holy name of Lord Krsna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krsna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krsna. Simply by touching the holy name with one’s tongue, immediate effects are produced. CHANTING THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON INITIATION, PIOUS ACTIVITIES OR THE PURASCARYA REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES GENERALLY OBSERVED BEFORE INITIATION. THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT WAIT FOR ALL THESE ACTIVITIES. IT IS SELF-SUFFICIENT.’ ”
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
THE OFFENSELESS CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE INITIATION PROCESS. ALTHOUGH INITIATION MAY DEPEND ON PURASCARYA OR PURASCARANA, THE ACTUAL CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON PURASCARYA-VIDHI, OR THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. IF ONE CHANTS THE HOLY NAME ONCE WITHOUT COMMITTING AN OFFENSE, HE ATTAINS ALL SUCCESS. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.
atah sri-krsna-namadi
na bhaved grahyam indriyaih
sevonmukhe hi jihvadau
svayam eva sphuraty adah
According to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 17.134):
ataeva krsnera ‘nama’, ‘deha’, ‘vilasa’
prakrtendriya-grahya nahe, haya sva-prakasa
“With these material senses, one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. However, when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed.”
Antya 4.71 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
tara madhye sarva-srestha nama-sankirtana
niraparadhe nama laile paya prema-dhana
SYNONYMS
tara madhye–of the nine different types of devotional service; sarva-srestha–the most important of all; nama-sankirtana–chanting of the holy name of the Lord; niraparadhe–without offenses; nama laile–if one chants the holy name; paya–he gets; prema-dhana–the most valuable ecstatic love of Krsna.
TRANSLATION
“Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead.”
PURPORT
Srila Jiva Gosvami Prabhu gives the following directions in his Bhakti-sandarbha (270):
iyam ca kirtanakhya bhaktir bhagavato dravya-jati-guna-kriyabhir dina-janaika-visayapara-karuna-mayiti sruti-puranadi-visrutih. ataeva kalau svabhavata evatidinesu lokesu avirbhuya tan anayasenaiva tat tad yuga-gata-maha-sadhananam sarvam eva phalam dadana sa krtarthayati. yata eva tayaiva kalau bhagavato visesatas ca santoso bhavati.
“Chanting the holy name is the chief means of attaining love of Godhead. This chanting or devotional service does not depend on any paraphernalia, nor on one’s having taken birth in a good family. By humility and meekness one attracts the attention of Krsna. That is the verdict of all the Vedas. Therefore if one becomes very humble and meek, he can easily attain the lotus feet of Krsna in this age of Kali. That is the fulfillment of all great sacrifices, penances and austerities because when one achieves ecstatic love of Godhead, he attains the complete perfection of life. Therefore whatever one does in executing devotional service must be accompanied with the chanting of the holy name of the Lord.” The chanting of the holy name of Krsna–Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare–has been praised by Srila Rupa Gosvami in his Namastaka (verse 1):
nikhila-sruti-mauli-ratna-mala-
dyuti-nirajita-pada-pankajanta
ayi mukta-kulair upasyamanam
paritas tvam hari-nama samsrayami
“O Hari-nama! The tips of the toes of Your lotus feet are constantly being worshiped by the glowing radiance emanating from the string of gems known as the Upanisads, the crown jewels of all the Vedas. You are eternally adored by liberated souls such as Narada and Sukadeva. O Hari-nama! I take complete shelter of You.”
Similarly, Srila Sanatana Gosvami has praised the chanting of the holy name as follows in his Brhad-bhagavatamrta (Chapter One, verse 9):
jayati jayati namananda-rupam murarer
viramita-nija-dharma-dhyana-pujadi-yatnam
kathamapi sakrd-attam muktidam praninam yat
paramam amrtam ekam jivanam bhusanam me
“All glories, all glories to the all-blissful holy name of Sri Krsna, which causes the devotee to give up all conventional religious duties, meditation and worship. When somehow or other uttered even once by a living entity, the holy name awards him liberation. The holy name of Krsna is the highest nectar. It is my very life and my only treasure.”
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.1.11) Sukadeva Gosvami says:
etan nirvidyamananam
icchatam akuto-bhayam
yoginam nrpa nirnitam
harer namanukirtanam
“O King, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord after the ways of the great authorities is the doubtless and fearless way of success for all, including those who are free from all material desires, those who are desirous of all material enjoyment, and those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge.”
Similarly, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said in His Siksastaka(3):
trnad api sunicena
taror api sahisnuna
amanina manadena
kirtaniyah sada harih
“One should chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street. One should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.” Regarding the ten offenses in chanting the holy name, one may refer to the Adi-lila, Chapter Eight, verse 24.
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
In reply to Pratyatosa Prabhu’s comment above, I believe my presentation on this forum to have been quite simple. As I mentioned at the outset, I am looking at this initiation issue from a managerial point of view: How did Srila Prabhupada intend for initiations to be conducted and what were the practical implications of his recommendation.
Simply, he said he would recommend some of his disciples to act as officiating acaryas when he would no longer be present. (1)
Secondly, when Srila Prabhupada was asked about those who would receive diksa from an officiating acarya when he was no longer present, he said “They are HIS disciples.” He did not say, “They are MY disciples.” This reaffirms that the officiating acaryas would be giving diksa and that those receiving diksa from them would be considered Srila Prabhupada’s grand disciples, not his directly initiated disciples. (2)
This seems very simple to me. There is nothing crooked in this explanation, as far as I can see.
The next point is that although the officiating acarya is giving diksa, it is Srila Prabhupada who is the eternal spiritual master of all of these disciples. This means the officiating acarya is qualified to act as guru and to give diksa, but he does not become the object of worship of the disciple. How do we know this? Because there was no instruction given by Srila Prabhupada to the contrary. We also know that worship of the pure devotee spiritual master which proclaims him to be “as good as God,” is reserved for the maha-bhagavata Vaisnava acarya. (3)
I have said all along that I do not have all of the answers to everyone’s questions. The transcript of the May 28, 1977 conversation was withheld from the devotees for nearly a decade during which time the GBC established an initiation system that was the fulfillment of their individual and collective ambitions. They were of the opinion that their protocols were based on sastra, but the fact is that their initiative was not aligned with Srila Prabhupada’s May 28th directives. Besides the transcript of the discussion being hidden away, many tapes from that period were either concealed or destroyed. It is also possible that some statements in regard to future initiations were never recorded at all.
Devotees should be careful to avoid the tendency to simplify beyond what is actually bonafide and philosophically correct. Some devotees are saying that anyone initiated today is directly initiated by Srila Prabhupada, just as you and I were. There is no corroboration in the sastra of a vaisnava acarya continuing to give diksa after entering samadhi. There is also no statement made by Srila Prabhupada that he would continue to initiate disciples in ISKCON when he would no longer be physically present with us.
To say for example that the word “henceforward” in the July 9th letter means for the next ten thousand years is quite a twist of the actual intent of the author who said the word meant “for the time being” or “until circumstances change.” These same devotees also point to the last will and testament which was signed by Srila Prabhupada affirming that a property trustee must be “my (Srila Prabhupada’s) initiated disciple.” They say this is proof that Srila Prabhupada would go on initiating after entering samadhi, but this supposition is yet another twist. The draft of the will that was read to and approved by Srila Prabhupada said a property trustee must be “AN initiated disciple,” and His Divine Grace never asked that it be changed to “MY initiated disciple.” Therefore, this section of the will has no real connection at all with how future initiations would be conducted. And so, in an attempt to simplify the original instruction beyond what was actually intended, we are presented with one twist of Srila Prabhupada’s words after another. With all of this twisting going on, you would think these devotees were following the Chubby Checker sampradaya. They’re just twisting the night away!
If you think points 1, 2 and 3 above are not simple and straightforward, perhaps you can show some simple evidence that proves them faulty.
Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,
Locanananda dasa
Locanananda dasa Prabhu,
Don’t you need to produce and prove such AUTHORIZATION from Srila Prabhupada to make your point 1,2 and 3 valid ????????
Where is that Authorization from Srila Prabhupada ?
Therefore, please do not waste your time to justify your points unnecessarily.
Santosh wrote:
“Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada says that guru should be accepted from the topmost platform of devotional service, and also we are saying that if one honestly functions as a normal siksha guru,it is okay.
But the siksha guru is also ‘guru’,right,according to the terminology?
Please try to clear this question……why is the term ‘guru’ added to siksha, if the person may not be mahabhagavat.?This question may be silly, but please help me to strengthen my understanding.”
740704BG.HON Lectures
Prabhupada: Then so siksa and diksa-guru… A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means… Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal.
Locanananda Prabhu, you are a hopeless case. Either you haven’t actually read every word of http://rtvik.com/ or it “went in one ear and out the other” without getting processed.
Madhu Pandit Prabhu and the other ISKCON Bangalore devotees came to the correct conclusion in 1998. They are not going to be influenced by your silly speculations in a million years. Why waste your breath?
Where are your followers? Where are your temples? How many new followers of Srila Prabhupada have you made? Obviously, no one agrees with you.
The fact is that there are only two choices: The ISKCON GBC’s concocted guru system or Srila Prabhupada’s “ritvik henceforward” system as it has been correctly put into practice by ISKCON Bangalore for the past 14 years. Time has shone that Srila Prabhupada’s system works very well. “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”
When Srila Prabhupada said in his will, “There is no need for any change,” what do you think that means? Do you think that you are smarted than Madhu Pandit and his assistants there in Bangalore, India?
You obviously have the same self-motivated, “In order to become a great philosopher, I must concoct something new.” disease that Rocana Dasa has. How are you any different?
Locanananda says they are “his” disciples? Except he has no idea, who is the “his”? His who? Whose is the “him” named to take disciples? HDG SP never names any gurus on May 28th, or at any other time? No mention of the 11 was given on May 28th, and no order for guru was given anywhere, at any time. So yes, when a guru is ordered to be a guru by his own guru, and / or by Krishna, then that guru has his own disciples, but only when he is ordered to take disciples, but notice, there is no order. Srila Prabhupada says when I order (maybe later on), but that is not an order (for now). So no one was ever told they are going to take their own disciples. So this is a mute point, there is no order, anywhere, for anyone to be a guru. We offered a $108,000 reward for any such proof that anyone was ordered, and no one has ever come forward to collect, especially Locanananda types who have never shown any order ever, because, there is no proof anyone was ever ordered to be a guru. As Tamal says, this (order to be guru) is a myth! ys pd
Who is the officiating acarya in Bangalore?
Dear Locanananda, You are prevaricating, again. Once again, using your technique of answering our question with another question. Stalling technique. In a technical and formal debate, you would have been disqualified. Another question is not an answer.
First of all, since you keep saying — for some years if not decades now — that “they are his disciples,” you need to tell us who is the “him” you keep saying has disciples? Again, why can’t you answer your own point, who is the “him” you keep telling us has disciples? Please give us his name?
Or else admit, there is / are no current “him” who has disciples, thus it seems you are really not talking about “anyone at all” who actually exists. Your “him” is a phantasm. Or what?
In short, you keep avoiding YOUR own point, once again NOT answering your own question, which you yourself have begged for years and years, you keep saying there is a him, who has or will have disciples. PLEASE! Just tell us once and for all — “him” who?
Or are you just talking about about thin air, a ghost, a non-existing person? Or what? Just tell us please, you have kept us in suspense for years now, who is the “him” you keep saying is (or was) going to have “his own” disciples? And please do not answer with another question, this is not allowed in formal discussions, its called diverting, prevaricating, ok Srila Prabhupada called this word jugglery.
If you cannot even answer your own question, that you yourself raised already, years ago, what is your point? That you cannot understand your own previous statements? Answering a question with another question, that is what the five years old children next door do when you ask them who is stealing the cookies. The ask another question, “Who said I knew about any cookies”? Stalling technique. ys pd
I am addressing the below question to the following persons.
1. Puranjana dasa 5. Iskcon Bangalore/Madhu Pandit dasa
2. Pratyatosa dasa 6. IRM/Krishna Kanth or anyone else who claim to be ritviks.
3. Mahesh Raja
4. Amar Puri
I understand the Ritviks say that Srila Prabhupada wanted initiation by ritvik for all future devotees
in iskcon after his departure and the initiated becomes Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Their point of reference
or proof that Srila Prabhupada wanted this is the July 9th 1977 appointment letter. If this is true then
tell us where in that letter does Srila Prabhupada say that this initiation process by ritvik must
continue after his departure and the initiated becomes his disciples?
Hare Krsna.
SG wrote:
I understand the Ritviks say that Srila Prabhupada wanted initiation by ritvik for all future devotees in iskcon after his departure and the initiated becomes Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Their point of reference or proof that Srila Prabhupada wanted this is the July 9th 1977 appointment letter. If this is true then tell us where in that letter does Srila Prabhupada say that this initiation process by ritvik must continue after his departure and the initiated becomes his disciples?
Mahesh: Prabhu, hit the COMMON-SENSE button in your brain. Who does the disciple belong to?
ANSWER: one who gives DISCIPLINE to him. It is a FACT that ONLY Srila Prabhupada is the one in ISKCON FROM WHOM COMES ALL THE DISCIPLINE chanting 16 rounds, books, tapes, CDs. NOW the DISCIPLE who follows these INSTRUCTIONS (THE DISCIPLINE) he is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. It can NOT be otherwise – UNLESS one is TOTALLY STUPID.
680911BG.SF Lectures
Disciple means one who accepts the discipline. Without accepting discipline, we cannot make any progress. Actually, these discussions of scripture is not to be acted unless there is relationship between the speaker and the audience. So audience means the disciples. DISCIPLE MEANS WHO ACCEPTS THE DISCIPLINE. SISYA. Sisya. THE EXACT SANSKRIT WORD IS SISYA
740121SB.HAW Lectures
So if we actually want to be happy, then we should not live like animals, without any restriction, without any… Even in your state, just to keep proper management of the state, there are so many laws. Even you… As soon as you go on the street, you see there is state law immediately, “Keep to the right.” Discipline must be there. That is dharma, discipline, to abide by the state laws. There must be some discipline. Similarly, to make yourself advanced in spiritual life, you must have to observe the discipline. Without discipline, it is not possible. Adau gurvasrayam. Therefore Rupa Gosvami says in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu that discipline means, one who observes discipline, he is called disciple. Everyone knows it. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO OBSERVES DISCIPLINE. IF ONE DOES NOT OBSERVE DISCIPLINE, THEN HE IS NOT A DISCIPLE. And one who is not a disciple, his life is chaotic. He cannot be happy. Therefore Vedas say that “You must accept a bona fide guru and become disciplined under his instruction.” Then you’ll know the higher system of knowledge, the necessity of life, and thus you become happy
760414SB.BOM Lectures
So upakrame avasane ca caranau sirasa namet. Just at the lotus feet of guru the brahmacari… So our students, they are very obedient. And if our students see the guru hundred times, he practices this process, offering obeisances while meeting and while going. These things are to be practiced. Then danta. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danta. Then he’ll be controlled, self-controlled. OBEDIENCE IS THE FIRST LAW OF DISCIPLINE. If there is no obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And if there is no discipline you cannot manage anything. That is not possible. Therefore this is very essential, that the students should be very disciplined. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE. THIS IS DISCIPLE, SISYA.
760308mw.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… Sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. Sas. Sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Sastra. Sastra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “OBEDIENCE IS THE FIRST LAW OF DISCIPLINE.” SO UNLESS THERE IS OBEDIENCE, THERE CANNOT BE ANY DISCIPLINE. AND UNLESS THERE IS DISCIPLINE, THERE IS NO QUESTION OF DISCIPLE. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS THE DISCIPLINE.
1ST AND 2ND INITIATIONS are FORMALITY: That is not very important thing.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
So what is IMPORTANT?
770401LE.BOM Lectures
So what is that verse? Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. Just recite that. (Indians repeat) Before that. (prema-bhakti yaha hoite, avidya vinasa yate) So the necessity is prema-bhakti. Prema-bhakti yaha hoite, avidya vinasa yate, divya-jnana. So what is that divya-jnana? Divya means transcendental, not material. Tapo divyam. Divyam means we are combination of matter and spirit. That spirit is divya, transcendental. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para. That is para prakrti, superior. If there is the superior identity… And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jnana hrde prakasito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jnana. Divya-jnana. AND BECAUSE GURU ENLIGHTENS THAT DIVYA-JNANA, HE IS WORSHIPED.
730222SB.AUC Lectures
Prabhupada: Diksa, diksa. Di… Divya. There are two words, divya-jnana. DIVYA-JNANA MEANS TRANSCENDENTAL, SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE. SO DIVYA IS DI, AND JNANAM, KSAPAYATI, EXPLAINING, THAT IS KSA, DI-KSA. THIS IS CALLED DIKSA, diksa, the combination. So diksa means the initiation to begin transcendental activities.
NOTE: your SVARUPA (constitutional position) as servant of Krsna is WHAT diksa is about. That is revealed in the heart Divya-jnana hrde prokasito via Srila Prabhupada. Kanistha can NOT give this and MADHYAMA is the RECEPIENT. Therefore MAHABHAGAVATA (Srila Prabhupada) BONAFIDE DIKSA Guru is OUR ONLY shelter.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: DIVYA-JNANA HRDE PROKASITO. What is that divya-jnana? DIVYA-JNANA IS THAT WE ARE ALL SERVANT OF KRSNA, AND OUR ONLY BUSINESS IS TO SERVE KRSNA. DIVYA-JNANA. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “NOW LET ME BECOME SERVANT OF KRSNA.” THIS IS DIVYA-JNANA. DIKSA. DIKSA MEANS FROM THIS DIVYA-JNANA. THAT IS DI. AND KSA MEANS KSAPAYATI, EXPANDS.
WE urge devotees to worship Srila Prabhupada as OUR DIKSA GURU. Why? Because HE is the Mahabhagavata who GIVES DIKSA (divya jnana). So ALL the DISCIPLINE is coming FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA to the one WHO WANTS TO ACCEPT DIKSA FROM HIM. So DIKSA means YOUR svarupa (constitutional position) as Servant of Krsna is REVEALED TO YOU in which ever mellow you have with Krsna ie dasya(servant) sakhya (friend) etc.
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)
Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:
1)”..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
2)“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
The question is can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!
So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa?
Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is in MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge. What you do NOT have you can NOT give. And it is Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.
Definition of Diksa:
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
divyam jnanam yato dadyat
kuryat papasya sanksayam
tasmad dikseti sa prokta
desikais tattva-kovidaih
“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity
Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION GIVE DIKSA -BY WHICH- ONE BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:
Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.
Q2) If a Brahmana(Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?
Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination
Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?
Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
PURPORT
This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:
dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya
“A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”
Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)
In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
jnana-vijnana-santosah
satyastikye dvisad gunah
“Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”
730828BG.LON Lectures
So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA — AUTOMATICALLY.
Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he is becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.
Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
TRANSLATION
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
TEXT 193
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
TRANSLATION
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
TEXT 194
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
TRANSLATION
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?
Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.
‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.
When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.
Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Now as to coming back to your question – it has already been covered you will find it here:
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WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
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Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
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Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
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Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
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Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
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Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
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Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
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He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
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The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
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Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
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Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
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Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
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Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
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Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
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We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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ALL GLORIES TO SRILA PRABHUPADA – OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU
The answer to this is:
1) Srila Prabhupada said hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times — after he departs there will only be managers and not gurus. And moreover that his disciples are not fit to be gurus. He did not make “one letter” about this, he stated this idea hundreds of times, over and over and over. Thus, later on he made the July 9th letter to simply CONFIRM what he had ALREADY said hundreds of times, there will only be mangers, representatives, proxies, and not successors. And he also said this hundreds of times — “do not change anything,” i.e. he will continue as the acharya.
2) Srila Prabhupada also warned us not to let others touch our feet, because then we would be acting as gurus, and we would be taking other’s karma, and we would get sick, fall down or both. In case you have not noticed, the post-1977 false gurus are having an epidemic of getting sick and falling down. In sum, he said we are NOT qualified to be gurus, and therefore what he said he wanted was “no changes” i.e. his worship should continue by a managerial body. Notice that when they violated that order, there has been an epidemic of catastrophic “guru” failures, which was recorded in all the news media, and which severely hampered his mission. OK he had ALREADY said repeatedly — they would fail, exactly as he said would happen — if they artificially tried to be gurus. Where does he say the neophytes can act like an acharya or another Jesus? He does not, he says they CANNOT DO SO.
3) Srila Prabhupada also told us perhaps thousands of times: do not try to be come gurus like the Gaudiya Matha did, and destroy his mission. He said we are not qualified, that means only he is, and thus — do not try to imitate. He was saying that a lot in 1977.
4) Srila Prabhupada said in January of 1977 that he was suspending sannyasa because they were making a laughing stock out of sannyasa. If they are clearly barely fit for sannyasa, how are they fit to be gurus?
5) On May 28th Srila Prabhupada said initiations would continue by ritviks. This was confirmed in the July 9th letter and subsequent conversations where he said he had made deputies, agents and so on.
6) The “will” says only his initiated disciples can be allowed as directors of ISKCON. That means he expected his initiated disciples to continue henceforward.
7) Srila Prabhupada said (here in Berkeley) that he would live forever in his books. The diksha guru thus gives (now through his books) pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha. The diksha guru also absorbs sins like Jesus, therefore the only person qualified to (a) give pure divyam jnanam through his books and (b) absolve sins like Jesus is — Srila Prabhupada. Is there any other candidate that can be named? If not, he is the diksha guru by default, which is what is even happening gradually in ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada is gradually being emphasized because his dubious replacements simply are not up to the task.
8) In case you have not noticed, we have so badly hammered these false gurus by now that the biggest adherents of the living guru idea like Locanananda, Rocana, George A Smith, Kailasha chandra, many GBC, many Gaudiya Matha, and similar others, they all refuse to name their living guru. Why? Because they know we will immediately pounce on the person they named as their current diksha guru as a fraud. Notice how Locanananda does the same exact thing, he says there is some “him” named as the guru who will have disciples, but notice — he never tells us who that “him” is, because he knows better. Locanananda knows, as soon as he names the alleged “him” he implies was named as the current living guru, we will immediately identify this person as a fraud. So now they are hiding the name of their living guru, because, they know that their whole system has no credibility. That means de facto, they are admitting we are right, there is no other guru other than Srila Prabhupada.
9) If there was any other system ordered or named, what is it? No one has ever identified any, or produced documentation to prove some ANY other idea was ordered. OK, our idea wins by default. ys pd
SG use your common sense (unless you are complete idiot and want to worship conditioned souls instead of Srila Prabhupada):
One who is accepting discipline from Srila Prabhupada is Srila Prabhupada’s disciple.
In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
Who is Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple?
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit:
Prabhupada: “Who is my disciple? First of all let him FOLLOW STRICTLY THE DISCIPLINED RULES.
Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is…
Prabhupada: Then he is all right.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bhaktijana, September 21, 1972:
“You do not require to worry as I shall never leave you, you are my disciple and I am your spiritual master, so there is no question, AS LONG AS you follow my instructions, that I shall ever leave you. Just remember under all circumstances to chant sixteen rounds of japa daily, offer your prasadam to Krsna, and do all of the things which you already know, as you are senior disciple. These things will protect you under all conditions, without any doubt.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, November 7, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one follows the principles, he continues to be my disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tusta Krsna, November 9, 1975:
“SO LONG AS one continues to follow the rules and regulations, he continues to be my disciple wherever he may be.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter, July 9, 1969:
“Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. THIS DEFYING MEANS TO DISCONNECT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. AND ANYONE WHO DEFIES AND THEREFORE DISCONNECTS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Cidananda, November 25, 1973:
“Please always try to REMEMBER ME BY MY TEACHINGS AND WE SHALL ALWAYS BE TOGETHER. Just like I have written in the first publications of Srimad-Bhagavatam, “The spiritual Master lives forever by His divine instruction and the disciple lives with him.”, because I have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the chalked out path layed down by the great acharya’s and in the end you will see.”
Who is NOT Srila Prabhupada’s disciple?
Initiation does not bear any meaning
Srila Prabhupada Letter, January 11, 1970:
“Regarding your question of an initiated person falling prey to the maya, the answer is that so long we are in this material world, there is always chance of being spoiled by Maya, so we must stick with vow to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The Spiritual Master’s business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bonafide Spiritual Master HIS INITIATION DOES NOT BEAR ANY MEANING. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the Spiritual Master. Therefore, if the Spiritual Master is bonafide and the disciple is serious to abide by His order, then the success is sure.”
Otherwise they are NOT my disciples
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Raja Laksmi, February 17, 1976:
“My advise is always chant 16 rounds minimum and follow the four regulative principles. All of my disciples must agree on this point OTHERWISE THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLES.”
Against the principle
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dhrstaketu, July 17, 1976:
“Unless absolutely necessary, one should keep head shaven and not allow the hair to grow long. If absolutely necessary, one can dress like an American gentleman, with short hair, but long hair is prohibited. The reason that one with long hair is not my disciple is because he is AGAINST THE PRINCIPLE. Unless absolutely necessary one should keep hair short, and if necessary one can dress like an American gentleman with short hair. It is not expected that everyone will join. For that reason we can’t compromise. The tendency is there to be hippy. When the acaryas are seen with beard, that is during Caturmasya, July-September. If observed strictly there is not simply a beard. There are so many rules and regulations. One can’t eat a variety of foods. Only kitri prepared and poured on the floor, and then licked up. There are so many other rules also. THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THAT THEY KEPT BEARD.”
There are many so-called Prabhupada disciples – but only in name. They in fact decline to follow Srila Prabhupada’s discipline hence they are Srila Prabhupada disciples in name only. They show superficial lip service to Srila Prabhupada.
Disciple in name only
Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, New York, July 10, 1976:
Prabhupada: And the Bon Maharaja is his follower. HE’S IN NAME a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, BUT HE’S A SERVANT OF Vivekananda.
Tamala Krsna: He’s very similar to him.
Prabhupada: He’s a great appreciator of Vivekananda. He has put in his curriculum Vivekananda philosophy, Gandhi philosophy. Rascal, what philosophy they have got?
STEALING SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLES, HIS PROPERTIES, FOR ONESELF (BECOMING SELF MADE GURU-BY BOGUS GBC APPOINTMENT OF 2/3 MAJORITY VOTES) HAS GRAVE CONSEQUENCES:
Krsna Book, Chapter 64 – The Story of King Nrga:
At this time, Lord Krsna was present among His relatives who were members of the ksatriya class. To teach them through the exemplary character of King Nrga, He said, “Even though a ksatriya king may be as powerful as fire, it is not possible for him to usurp the property of a brahmana and utilize it for his own purpose. If this is so, how can ordinary kings, who falsely think of themselves as the most powerful beings within the material world, usurp a brahmana’s property? I do not think that taking poison is as dangerous as taking a brahmana’s property. For ordinary poison there is treatment–one can be relieved from its effects; but if one drinks the poison of taking a brahmana’s property, there is no remedy for the mistake. THE PERFECT EXAMPLE IS KING NRGA. HE WAS VERY POWERFUL AND VERY PIOUS, BUT DUE TO THE SMALL MISTAKE OF UNKNOWINGLY USURPING A BRAHMANA’S COW, HE WAS CONDEMNED TO THE ABOMINABLE LIFE OF A LIZARD. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; BUT THE ARANI FIRE IGNITED BY THE SPIRITUAL POTENCY OF A BRAHMANA CAN BURN TO ASHES THE WHOLE FAMILY OF A PERSON WHO PROVOKES SUCH A BRAHMANA.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “IF SOMEONE EVEN TOUCHES A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, HE IS RUINED FOR THREE GENERATIONS. HOWEVER, IF A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY IS FORCIBLY TAKEN AWAY, THE TAKER’S FAMILY FOR TEN GENERATIONS BEFORE HIM AND TEN GENERATIONS AFTER HIM WILL BECOME SUBJECT TO RUINATION. On the other hand, if someone becomes a Vaisnava, or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will become liberated.”
Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. THEREFORE I INSTRUCT YOU, ALL MY BOYS AND RELATIVES PRESENT HERE, DO NOT, EVEN BY MISTAKE, TAKE THE POSSESSION OF A BRAHMANA AND THEREBY POLLUTE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY. IF SOMEONE EVEN WISHES TO POSSESS SUCH PROPERTY, LET ALONE ATTEMPTS TO TAKE IT AWAY BY FORCE, THE DURATION OF HIS LIFE WILL BE REDUCED. HE WILL BE DEFEATED BY HIS ENEMIES, AND AFTER BEING BEREFT OF HIS ROYAL POSITION, WHEN HE GIVES UP HIS BODY HE WILL BECOME A SERPENT. A SERPENT GIVES TROUBLE TO ALL OTHER LIVING ENTITIES. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or curses you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”
It has been a common practice among Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers to steal Srila Prabhupada’s disciples by trickery. Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja are also known to have re-initiated Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Narayana Maharaja is also a culprit in this deplorable un-Vaisnava, offensive, insulting conduct. This act proves they are conditioned souls.
From the letter below one can see that history repeats itself; because they are conditioned souls they ventured to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Thus, they were caught out as Srila Prabhupada clearly says of the action: “SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION.”
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Mukunda, March 26, 1968:
“In meantime, I have also received one letter which is very depressing from Hrsikesa. I understand that he has been induced by Bon Maharaja to be initiated by him for giving him shelter, and this foolish boy has accepted his inducement. This isn’t very happy news, and I have replied Hrsikesa’s letter in the following words, which please take note, and in the future, we shall be very cautious about them. “My Dear Hrsikesa, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of March 14, 1968, and I am greatly surprised. I AM GREATLY SURPRISED FOR BON MAHARAJA’S INITIATING YOU IN SPITE OF HIS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE ALREADY INITIATED BY ME. SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. I very much appreciate your acknowledgement of my service unto you and you will always have my blessings, BUT YOU MUST KNOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMITTEE. A GREAT BLUNDER. I do not wish to discuss on this point more elaborately now, but if you are desirous to know further about it, I shall be glad to give you more enlightenment. Mukunda is not here. He has gone to L.A. Hope you are well.” If Hrsikesa writes you letter I think you may avoid reply. I DO NOT APPROVE BOTH HRSIKESA’S AND BON MAHARAJA’S THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. Hoping you are both well.”
In venturing to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples —they could not even have understood the philosophy properly. As It is clearly stated: A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. For them to Initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples they would be falling into a trap of REJECTING Srila Prabhupada as the Initiating Guru—DIRECT INSULT-committed BOTH by the so-called disciple of Srila Prabhupada and their conditioned soul “gurus”.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1.35:
The Spiritual Masters
“The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN.”
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Ritvik – **Representative**
Ritvik – **representative** of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation.
This is for the benefit of those who have ears to hear.
Ritvik–**representative** of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation.
Note the word *representative* indicated below which was also mentioned in July 9th 1977 directive.
Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:
“Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.”
Note: we know that without becoming a Maha-bhagavata it is an offense against the chanting of the holy name (3rd offense in chanting) to be worshipped as good as God (Acarya). Ritvik –the representative of the acarya allows for this function of worshipping the acarya (Prabhupada) without slaughtering the spiritual lives of others.
“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.”
Srila Prabhupada is revealing his position as the jagad-guru (Spiritual Master of the entire world). It is Srila Prabhupada that has distributed the Holy Name (thru his books) all over the world. Krishna is His pure devotee Prabhupada’s property to give.
Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya 7.12:
“…in the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the spiritual master of the entire world (jagad-guru). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation. The true acarya presents Krsna to everyone by preaching the holy name of the Lord throughout the world. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krsna’s mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krsna. He is therefore the spiritual master of all the varnas (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and all the asramas (brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura.”
Ritvik is a REPRESENTATIVE of the acarya, SO IF the word REPRESENTATIVE is mentioned in CC 24.330 without mention of the word “Ritvik”, what’s the problem in understanding? Study Srimad Bhagavatam – there are many places which priest has to officiate, Ritvik is mentioned. Vedic society in the past has Ritviks – so why not now?
Radha is not mentioned directly, but from word derivation.
In this case REPRESENTATIVE was used instead if the word Ritvik. “Representative of the acarya” is also mentioned similarly in (CC Madhya 24.330) — this is the secret. Ritvik is the same. Representative of acarya mean RITVIK Representative who OFFICIATES on BEHALF of the acarya for the specific purpose. What’s the purpose? for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8.100:
“The name Radha is derived from this verse (Bhag. 10.30.28), from the words anayaradhitah, meaning “by Her the Lord is worshiped.” Sometimes the critics of Srimad-Bhagavatam find it difficult to find Radharani’s holy name, but the secret is disclosed here in the word aradhitah, from which the name radha has come. Of course, the name of Radharani is directly mentioned in other Puranas. This gopi’s worship of Krsna is topmost, and therefore Her name is Radha, or the topmost worshiper.”
Srila Prabhupada’s 07-09-77, Letter to All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents:
“Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
(Srila Prabhupada’s signature appears in the original)
This July 9th 1977 letter was never revoked by Srila Prabhupada. This being the case, all the newly initiated devotees are disciples of his Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada for as long as ISKCON exists.
A History below was compiled by another devotee which shows Srila Prabhupada’s intentions.
History:
July 9th, 1977 – “Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s final signed Directive describing the initiation system to be followed in ISKCON, sent to all GBC’s and Temple Presidents)
July 11th, 1977 – “A letter has been sent to all the Temple Presidents and GBC which you should be receiving soon describing the process for initiation to be followed in the future. Srila Prabhupada has appointed thus far eleven representatives who will initiate new devotees on His behalf.”
(Letter from Tamala Krishna Goswami to Kirtananda describing the above system) July 19th, 1977 – “Make your own field and continue to be Ritvik and act on my charge.” (Room Conversation, above dictated by Srila Prabhupada to his secretary Tamala Krishna Goswami)
July 31st, 1977 – “Make your own field and continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.”
(Above dictation sent out to Hamsaduta Swami by Tamala Krishna Goswami in a letter) Nov 1977 – “The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s Last Will and Testament, which now comes into force for the lifetime of ISKCON)
Nov 1977 – “In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple …”
(Srila Prabhupada’s Last Will and Testament, which now comes into force for the lifetime of ISKCON. The above system of selecting directors can only work if Srila Prabhupada’s initiated disciples exist throughout ISKCON’s lifetime.)
ALL GLORIES TO OUR BONAFIDE JAGAT DIKSA
AND SIKSA GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA!
HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE
SG says: “…tell us where in [the July 9th, 1977] letter does Srila Prabhupada say that this initiation process by ritvik must continue after his departure and the initiated becomes his disciples?”
Tamal Krishna, one of the original 11 ritviks and the one who, as Srila Prabhupada’s secretary, typed the the July 9th letter, understood it, but later on, under pressure from the other ritviks, pretended to no longer understand it:
http://pratyatosa.com/?P=1j
Hansadutta, also one of the original 11 ritviks, understood the letter and, to this day, has never deviated from that understanding:
http://pratyatosa.com/?P=3m
Madhu Pandit, temple president of ISKCON Bangalore, also understands it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5J36BOgLaA
Please read http://rtvik.com/ very carefully. Then, hopefully, you will also properly understand it.
By the way, the ISKCON leaders who don’t understand the July 9th, 1977 letter, or are pretending that they don’t, are either fools, self-motivated rascals, or a combination of the two. Either they have the “I wanna be a guru like Srila Prabhupada” disease, or they have prostituted themselves to those who do.
Sorry, Puranjana prabhu, but the question in my last post was a response to Pratyatosa’s assertion that the Bangalore temple is following Srila Prabhupada’s order. It was Srila Prabhupada’s order that those he would select to conduct initiations when he would no longer be present would act as officiating acaryas.
My question was “Who is acting as officiating acarya in the Bangalore temple?” Following your line of reasoning, if no one can be named who is acting as officiating acarya in the Bangalore temple, they must not be following Srila Prabhupada’s order.
If Srila Prabhupada did not intend for his followers to act as his preachers, agents, deputies, representatives, administrators, and (fallible and replaceable) priests, ritviks, and so on, as he repeatedly said we are, what else did he order and where did he order it? ys pd
Puranjana Prabhu — You keep asking me who it is that was authorized by Srila Prabhupada, i.e., given the order to act as guru. My answer is simply that the order was given by Srila Prabhupada for the devotees he would recommend to act as officiating acaryas, particularly at that time when he would no longer be physically present.
According to the May 28th, 1977 conversation, anyone receiving diksa in ISKCON during Srila Prabhupada’s lifetime would be considered directly initiated by Srila Prabhupada. When asked about those who would receive initiation in ISKCON after he was no longer physically present, Srila Prabhupada referred to them as his grand disciples.
There was never any mention of anyone having to leave ISKCON to give diksa. We all know Srila Prabhupada did not want to see any kind of schism within our movement. He expected everyone to follow his directives, especially concerning how things would be managed after he left this world. So his order was, “I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
The modern ritvik idea is that Srila Prabhupada continues to give formal initiation, even though he himself never said he intended to do that after entering samadhi. Only the followers of Chubby Checker are willing to twist that kind of obtuse meaning out of the spiritual master’s direct statements which actually have no need of interpretation. The July 9th letter, for example, mentions nothing about post-samadhi initiations, so the twisters take the word “henceforward” as their cue to construct a new model of how they want the guru parampara to be perpetuated.
The dance party continues with an analysis of the will and the phrase “MY initiated disciple,” words that were inserted into the text of the document by a lawyer after Srila Prabhupada had already approved the wording “AN initiated disciple” as acceptable to him. How could this possibly be taken as evidence that Srila Prabhupada would continue to initiate disciples directly after entering maha-samadhi if these were the lawyer’s words?
And which acarya in our line or any other line ever proposed continuing to give diksa after leaving this place and to do so from wherever Krishna arranged for him to go to carry on the preaching mission? Who can even say that Krishna ordered Srila Prabhupada to remain in the material world to preach Krishna consciousness? Were you privy to that most intimate conversation between the Lord and His pure devotee whereby his future service was made known to him? Then how could you be so sure of Srila Prabhupada’s current role in serving his worshipful Lord at the present moment?
I read Pratyatosa’s one page explanation of the ritvik position and there is nothing new there. I’ve heard all this before, and it is the ongoing chewing of the chewed. He makes personal attacks instead of philosophical points. His logic is faulty. It is what we call argumentum ad ignorantum. His reasoning is defeated by the statement of sastra that no one can approach the activities of the pure devotee by logic and reason because they are inconceivable in their dimension.
Locanananda dasa says: Who is acting as officiating acarya in the Bangalore temple?
There is only one Acharya of ISKCON: Srila Prabhupada. Never once did Srila Prabhupada use the term “officiating acharya” or “ritvik acharya.” He always used the term “ritvik” or “ritvik representative of the Acharya.” Please refer to http://pratyatosa.com/?P=3m for Hansadutta Prabhu’s confirmation of this.
Puranjan Prabhu wrote:
“8) In case you have not noticed, we have so badly hammered these false gurus by now that the biggest adherents of the living guru idea like Locanananda, Rocana, George A Smith, Kailasha chandra, many GBC, many Gaudiya Matha, and similar others, they all refuse to name their living guru. Why? Because they know we will immediately pounce on the person they named as their current diksha guru as a fraud. Notice how Locanananda does the same exact thing, he says there is some “him” named as the guru who will have disciples, but notice — he never tells us who that “him” is, because he knows better. Locanananda knows, as soon as he names the alleged “him” he implies was named as the current living guru, we will immediately identify this person as a fraud. So now they are hiding the name of their living guru, because, they know that their whole system has no credibility. That means de facto, they are admitting we are right, there is no other guru other than Srila Prabhupada.”
Mahesh: Just to point out Rocana even said he thinks Sridhara Maharaja was a Diksa guru. Was he? Since when? Just study the following:
Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
Puranjana Prabhu — You keep asking me who it is that was authorized by Srila Prabhupada, i.e., given the order to act as guru. My answer is simply that the order was given by Srila Prabhupada for the devotees he would recommend to act as officiating acaryas, particularly at that time when he would no longer be physically present.
[PD: OK why are you STILL not specifically naming who your these alleged diksha gurus are? Are you saying the post-1977 11 people, who all started running amok with money, women, followers, drugs, homosexuality, criminal action, ad infinitum, are your idea of gurus? You are also going in circles. It says there will be ritviks giving initiations after he departs. It does not say these ritviks will be gurus after he departs, it says they will be ritviks after he departs. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that the 11 are your idea of parampara messiahs? It seems like you are?]
LD: According to the May 28th, 1977 conversation, anyone receiving diksa in ISKCON during Srila Prabhupada’s lifetime would be considered directly initiated by Srila Prabhupada.
[PD: No, it says they will be ritivks after he departs.]
LD: When asked about those who would receive initiation in ISKCON after he was no longer physically present, Srila Prabhupada referred to them as his grand disciples.
[PD: No, he said they would be gurus when he gives an order, but no order was given. Are you saying Srila Prabhupada appointed the 11 as gurus because he had no idea of who or what a guru is?]
LD: There was never any mention of anyone having to leave ISKCON to give diksa.
[PD: Well the 11 all left right away, in March of 1978 they all went to Sridhara, Narayana, BV Puri, BP Puri, Fakir Mohan and so on and so forth. So you raise another good point, they all left right away but there is no order to do so. So they are deviants and not gurus, agreed.]
LD: We all know Srila Prabhupada did not want to see any kind of schism within our movement. He expected everyone to follow his directives, especially concerning how things would be managed after he left this world. So his order was, “I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
[PD: Yes, May 28th also says when the ritviks deviate they will have to be replaced. OK, that means they are not gurus because gurus do not deviate and have to be replaced. Or are you saying the parampara is full of deviants, who then have to be replaced? You are confusing us, again.]
LD: The modern ritvik idea is that Srila Prabhupada continues to give formal initiation, even though he himself never said he intended to do that after entering samadhi.
[PD: Where does he say that? He says his books (the source of divyam jnanama which destroys sins aka diksha) would live on forever. Where did he says his books and their diksha potency would die?]
LD: Only the followers of Chubby Checker are willing to twist that kind of obtuse meaning out of the spiritual master’s direct statements which actually have no need of interpretation.
[PD: Right, he said in the future when he is not here, they are going to be giving initiations as ritviks, that is the first thing that is said on the tape.]
LD: The July 9th letter, for example, mentions nothing about post-samadhi initiations, so the twisters take the word “henceforward” as their cue to construct a new model of how they want the guru parampara to be perpetuated.
[PD: So according to you the 11, who were part of a group of leaders always tending towards illicit sex, drugs and so on, all along from the 1960s, are diksha gurus? That means you never understood what a diksha guru is?]
LD: The dance party continues with an analysis of the will and the phrase “MY initiated disciple,” words that were inserted into the text of the document by a lawyer after Srila Prabhupada had already approved the wording “AN initiated disciple” as acceptable to him.
[PD: So persons inclined towards illicit sex, homosexuality, drugs and so on, were intended to give pure jnanam and absorb sins like Jesus? And that was “the order” of Srila Prabhupada? You are making no sense at all. Where does he order that the conditioned souls on the GBCs can give diksha?]
LD: How could this possibly be taken as evidence that Srila Prabhupada would continue to initiate disciples directly after entering maha-samadhi if these were the lawyer’s words?
[PD: You do not need to be a lawyer, any five year old child knows that you need to worship a pure devotee, whether the pure devotee is so-called departed or not, and that worship of criminals, perverts and deviants is bogus.]
LD: And which acarya in our line or any other line ever proposed continuing to give diksa after leaving this place and to do so from wherever Krishna arranged for him to go to carry on the preaching mission? Who can even say that Krishna ordered Srila Prabhupada to remain in the material world to preach Krishna consciousness? Were you privy to that most intimate conversation between the Lord and His pure devotee whereby his future service was made known to him? Then how could you be so sure of Srila Prabhupada’s current role in serving his worshipful Lord at the present moment?
[PD: Well its simple, he said do not worship bogus people like the Gaudiya Matha does, stay on target and worship the acharya.]
LD: I read Pratyatosa’s one page explanation of the ritvik position and there is nothing new there. I’ve heard all this before, and it is the ongoing chewing of the chewed. He makes personal attacks instead of philosophical points. His logic is faulty. It is what we call argumentum ad ignorantum. His reasoning is defeated by the statement of sastra that no one can approach the activities of the pure devotee by logic and reason because they are inconceivable in their dimension.
[PD: No elaborate logic and reason is required? Even cannibals do not worship persons engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children as the GBC’s bogus messiahs program does, the cannibals even know that is bogus because they have enough God given intuition to know that is totally bogus. You cannot go back to God by worship of deviants, plain and simple, you have to worship the pure devotee. That is stated everywhere.
I also note that you are STILL not giving the specific names of the people you claim are diksha gurus either, that would be too embarassing for you would it not? Tell us who in your opinion are the diksha gurus now who have pure jnanam and the potency to absorb sins like Jesus, and give us their names. Why are you STILL not giving us the names, that was our original question to you? More shuffling on your part, simply tell us the specific names of the people you are saying either are, were or could have been the post 1978 diksha gurus for ISKCON. Name them! You are going around in circles! Just name the 1978 and current diksha / parampara / messiah / Krishna’s successors / gurus you keep alluding to, tell us once and for all, who are they? Why is this like pulling teeth to get a simple list of names? ys pd]
Locananada is cheater everyone can see this now he was PRETENDING to be Ritvik NOW he is EXPOSED. Puranjana Prabhu has him cornered.
Srila Prabhupada says, a fool is glorified so long he does not speak. We can see where these people who are against Ritvik system are coming from – they have so much ENVY of Srila Prabhupada’s UNIQUE DIKSA Guru position that they want to COMPETE with him AND steal his disciples. The idea of stealing Srila Prabhupada’s disciples is FREE SLAVERY. They just USE them.
No satisfaction of their lust. What a sickening mentality!!!
Just see their arrogance.
Hansadutta Prabhu’s letter is heartfelt, but he admits he had no idea what was spoken by Srila Prabhupada on May 28, 1977 until years later. There was a problem communicating Srila Prabhupada’s directive to have officiating acaryas conduct initiations after his lifetime, and the import of the discussion regarding future initiations was not explained to devotees worldwide by the GBC members when they returned to their respective zones. How Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be managed was recorded but intentionally not reported to anyone outside of Vrndavana.
The GBC had convened in Vrndavana on May 27 at the request of Srila Prabhupada after his health had taken a turn for the worse. He wanted to answer any final questions they had concerning the future management of the society. A group of six GBC men, those who had been on the original GBC appointed by Srila Prabhupada in 1970, entered his room and asked about a number of matters they felt needed clarification. They wanted to know about the completion of the Srimad Bhagavatam and the translation of other Vedic texts. They also asked about how long members of the GBC would remain in office and how they would be replaced in the event of a falldown. Then they asked about how initiations would be conducted when Srila Prabhupada would no longer be present with us. His reply was that he would recommend some of them to act as officiating acarya.
The tape recording of the conversation was played back for all of the GBC members to hear. Hansadutta was not present in Vrndavana at the time so he could not have heard Srila Prabhupada say the devotees he would later recommend would act as officiating acaryas when he would no longer be present.
Everyone signed off on the minutes of the GBC meeting which stated that those receiving diksa after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance would be his grand disciples. That was everyone’s understanding after the tape was played for them. The failure of the GBC was that this particular portion of the recorded conversation was not mentioned in the GBC’s summary report of its meetings in Vrndavana which was sent to all temple presidents in the movement. The other topics such as who would continue the translation and commentary of the Bhagavatam, what would be the duration of the GBC members’ term of office, how others would be added and so on were all listed in the summary report, but not the announcement that officiating acaryas would be chosen by Srila Prabhupada for the purpose of giving diksa when he would no longer be present.
If anyone thinks Srila Prabhupada never used the term officiating acarya, the recording can be heard on Youtube. Please note that in Hansadutta’s letter he does not say anywhere that Srila Prabhupada never used the terms “officiating acarya” and “ritvik acarya.” The tape recording says otherwise and so do other devotees who were living in Vrndavana during those months preceding Srila Prabhupada’s departure from this world.
I must say, all of this twisting of the facts would make Chubby Checker very proud of his followers here. I again challenge that if you cannot name who it is that is acting as officiating acarya in Bangalore temple, then they are not following Srila Prabhupada’s order concerning future initiations. On May 28, 1977:
SDG: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, PARTICULARLY AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you, after this is settled up. I SHALL RECOMMEND SOME OF YOU TO ACT AS OFFICIATING ACARYA.
So who is acting as officiating acarya in Bangalore? Pray tell.
Locanananda dasa writes ; ” And which acarya in our line or any other line ever proposed continuing to give diksa after leaving this place and to do so from wherever Krishna arranged for him to go to carry on the preaching mission? Who can even say that Krishna ordered Srila Prabhupada to remain in the material world to preach Krishna consciousness? Were you privy to that most intimate conversation between the Lord and His pure devotee whereby his future service was made known to him? Then how could you be so sure of Srila Prabhupada’s current role in serving his worshipful Lord at the present moment ?”
My answer is to SG and Locanananda dasa, what type of system did Srila Baktisidhanta Thakur Maharaja order to his disciples to carry forward his preaching ? Did SBSSTM not order to form a GBC and follow the lead of the Personality who so ever emerge and cooperate with each other ? Was there not a gap of 30 years before the Personality did emerge ? During that 30 years of gap, how the Initiations were given in Organization of SBSSTM ? And who is that Personality emerged ? Is He NOT HDG. Srila Prabhupada ? Did Srila Prabhupada carry forward with the Organizations of SBSSTM ? Did he ? Oh Hell NO. WHY ? Did Srila Prabhupada not start his own Organization known as Iskcon in order to serve the order of his Guru Maharaja ? Yes he did. What kind of system did Srila Prabhupada order to his disciples to carry forward his preaching ? Is it not the same Order of System of SBSSTM given by HDG. Srila Prabhupada intended his disciples to follow through ?
One has to contemplate on all these and so many others questions to arrive at the conclusion to understand and know the exact Instructions of Srila Prabhupada and His VANI only after hearing from him with rapt attention as he desires. All of US simply have to hear and read and re-read Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions to get all these answers only if one is serious and sincere to follow Srila Prabhupada Instructions selflessly.
By the way I came across this beautiful verse to contemplate by all of US who are sincere and serious in rendering selfless service in the mission of Srila Prabhupada.
“TRANSLATION
Praying at the lotus feet of Çré Rüpa and Çré Raghunätha, always desiring their mercy, I, Kåñëadäsa, narrate Çré Caitanya-caritämåta, following in their footsteps.
PURPORT
Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu wanted to preach the saìkértana movement of love of Kåñëa throughout the entire world, and therefore during His presence He inspired the saìkértana movement. Specifically, He sent Rüpa Gosvämé and Sanätana Gosvämé to Våndävana and Nityänanda to Bengal and personally went to South India. In this way He kindly left the task of preaching His cult in the rest of the world to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the äcäryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world.
Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports to Çré Caitanya-caritämåta, Ädi-lilä, Seventh Chapter, describing Lord Caitanya in five features.” [adi 7.121]
NOTE ; Would this seem to indicate there isn’t any room left for another Acarya to come since the rest of the world has been given to Srila Prabhupada ?
Hari BOL….. OM TAT SAT.
YS…… Amar Puri.
OK I guess Locanananda is never going to tell us the specific names of those people whom he thought were supposed to be the post-1977 diksha gurus? He has never named anyone as the post 1977 guru, he just says its going to be “his disciples”? Him who?
The people who would deviate and have to be replaced, as it states on the May tape?
He just does not get it, he has no name for the people he says are supposed to be gurus, and that means, he apparently has no gurus at all. Now Locanananda is saying the people mentioned on the May tape, those who would deviate and have to be replaced, are — diksha gurus?
That means Locanananda thinks the guru parampara is full of fallen people and debauchees who deviate? That means he has no idea what is the guru parampara? People who deviate and have to be replaced are not parampara gurus?
If Srila Prabhupada named 11 gurus on May 28th or at any other time, where is this documented? Show us a document where he says, here are my successors, and here are their names? I just hope the list of gurus does not include Hansadutta in the Locanananda list of gurus, because just now Locanananda says Hansadutta had no idea what Srila Prabhupada was saying, and what was really ordered?
So, why would Srila Prabhupada appoint people as his gurus successors when, according to Locanananda, they had not idea what Srila Prabhupada was saying? And if the May tape appointed successors, why did we not get a copy of the tape until 1984, which Sulochana had to basically steal? Ooops, and 11 names are not given on the May tape? And in 1997 Norman Perle audio forensic expert’s lab said, our GBC approved alleged 1977 tape was “consistent with tampering”? ys pd
My mistake. Srila Prabhupada did say “officiating acharya” one time and one time only. Here is the exact quote:
http://causelessmercy.com/t/?P=770528me.vrn&TP=6583
But, he later changed his mind, as is indicated by the July 9th letter, and by 3 later letters (one to Kirtanananda and two to Hansadutta) in which he used the corrected terminology, “ritvik representative of the Acharya.”
He never again used the term, “officiating acharya.”
A disciple should be proud of who his/her guru is. Therefore, I always try to remember to include “(ACBSP)” after the name that Srila Prabhupada so kindly gave me (in person) on my (Western calendar) birthday in 1971. See:
http://causelessmercy.com/t/?P=710720RC.NY&TP=617
By way of contrast, it seems that most of the disciples of ISKCON’s “no objection by 2/3 GBC majority vote gurus” are ashamed to admit who their guru is. I wonder why that is!
Hare krishna
AGTSP, PAMHO.
In conclusion is the officiating acarya a bonafide rubber stamped guru?
1. Mahesh Raja says:
28. December 2012 at 3:35 pm
Mahesh: Prabhu, hit the COMMON-SENSE button in your brain
2. Mahesh Raja says:
28. December 2012 at 4:39 pm
SG use your common sense (unless you are complete idiot and want to worship
conditioned souls instead of Srila Prabhupada):
There is no need to always quote like a parrot, quoting a mountain of quotes. And just because you quote
this and that by the pages does not mean you have answered my simple question. It just reminds me of
that empty can that makes a lot of noise and that vain evil queen who poisons Snow White just because she wants to be the fairest of them all. And if you wondering why i say this, its because you started
off your reply by being obnoxiously, egotistically rude. In Iskcon we have homosexuals/pedophiles, child
and wife abusers/molesters, cunning and sneaky leaders, fake/bogus gurus and sannyasis, lairs and cheaters and who knows whatever else and then we have people like you, a person so full of himself and uncultured that one wonders, what is that you are practicing in Krsna Conciousness. Humility must be something foreign to you. You think by being uncouth and rude to the readers, calling them stupid, lacking common sense, being a complete idiot, the general public is going to appreciate you or whatever you are saying. Actually, what it tells me is that practioners of ritviks must be of lowbreds (lower than sudras), lack common decency, egoistic and possibly violent etc. To think that the person they glorify and consider to be their eternal spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) wanted all his disciple and followers to become first class sadhus. You are really a very bad example of one.
I ask again, that is if you have the intelligence to understand what i am asking. If the ritviks claim
that Srila Prabhupada wanted the ritvik initiation process that Srila Prabhupada practiced in the last
few months of his time on this planet to be followed or to continue after his departure and their point of
reference or proof to this is the July 9th 1977 letter, just say yes,it is. And, if it is so then the
next question is, where or in which part of that letter does it state that Srila Prabhupada has said
that ritvik initiation process must continue in the future after his departure and the initiated must
be his disciples. And if it not stated in the letter, just say it is not stated in the letter. Its that
simple.
If you think this simple question is too taxing for your brain, it is alright. You do not have to answer.
I wish to thank you for your previous effort and you can go and associate with your own kind. My advancing in spiritual life do not require the association of people like you. Because It (you) will become
an impediment to my spiritual advancement.
Hare Krsna.
Dasanudas says: In conclusion is the officiating acarya a bonafide rubber stamped guru?
Sometimes Srila Prabhupada misspeaks, like the time he mistakenly called New Vrindaban, “New Virginia.” Sometimes he changes his mind, like when he said that the book distributors must go out dressed as devotees, but later said that karmi clothes/wigs were alright if it meant more books got distributed.
Like I said before, there is no such thing as an “officiating acharya” within ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada is the only Acharya. He later corrected this terminology. He changed it to the crystal-clear “ritvik representative of the Acharya.”
Why are we taking a casual conversation so seriously? The May 28th conversation was contradicted by/superseded by the July 9th, “ritvik henceforward” letter to all temple presidents/GBC men. A written, signed document carries much more weight than a casual conversation where someone happens to have some cheap cassette recorder running. And since the May 28th conversion tape was edited, we’ll probably never know exactly what was said. But it’s not important because it’s the latest instruction from the spiritual master that we follow.
These same people that try to ram the May 28th conversation down our collective throats probably don’t even have enough devotion to Srila Prabhupada to follow his often repeated instruction that all of his male disciples take vanaprastha at age 50! What about you Locanananda Prabhu?
SG wrote:
“And if you wondering why i say this, its because you started
off your reply by being obnoxiously, egotistically rude.”
Mahesh: this is simply to wake you up from slumber. Mountain of quotes are not not material (they are Srila Prabhupada’s words so your “empty cans” can not apply here). Better a rude awakening then to be left ignorant. Face the facts that the Disciples belong to whoever gives discipline and it is Srila Prabhupada who is FACTUALLY giving ALL discipline by giving 16 rounds 4 regs and his books, tapes,cds. Consequently ALL disciples following Srila Prabhupada’s discipline are FACTUALLY his disciples.
And this is what you really do NOT want to accept.
It is obvious that you want to go against the Ritvik system and so to find some fault you chose to carefully word your questions so as to win your argument and naturally you wanted the joy of winning – but did not get it. This is your disappointment.
According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. You just can not accept the truth: ALL the disciples in ISKCON are Srila Prabhupada’s ONLY. It can not be otherwise.
Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.
Officiating acharya? It means someone who is officiating (like a priest does) on behalf of the acharya. It seems people have not understood what the word “officiating” means. It is used to define for example an “officiating” priest at a wedding.
So yes, a priest “officiates” on behalf of the acharya. Srila Prabhupada says a police man has the authority of the president of the USA, because he represents the president (as an officiating agent), but he is not the president himself. I see no problem with the idea of officiating, after all, every single one of us is officiating on behalf of the acharya, we are all acting as his agents.
At the same time this particular tape was verified to have been spliced, therefore, its hard to say what was actually said and what was not. Gopa Vrndapal told me the GBC had a tape where Srila Prabhupada had said — you can use any cheating technique to get money on samkirtana. OK, but when he investigated at the archives (which was in LA at the time), he found that this tape never had been spoken, it was a whole bunch of other tapes that had been spliced together. It was making Srila Prabhupada say somethig he had never actually said in that context, ok it was a hatchet job.
The May 28th tape has ALREADY been certified by an expert who works for the police, as a hatchet job, a splice job. Therefore I rely on evidence other than that dubious tape supplied to us at the late date of 1984, supplied to us by the GBC’s gurus. Locanananda is sold out to them, that is all there is to it. But yes, an officiator of the acharya is an agent of the acharya, and that would include all of us, we are all his agents, we are not his successors. The good news is the tape still says the ritviks will initiate when he is not here, that no one is a guru until he orders (meaning this tape is not the order), and that when they deviate they will have to be replaced, therefore even the tape by itself is still proof of our point. ys pd
2. To serve as an officiant at (a ceremony): officiated the wedding ceremony.
of·fi·ci·ate (-fsh-t)
v. of·fi·ci·at·ed, of·fi·ci·at·ing, of·fi·ci·ates
v.intr.
1. To perform the duties and functions of an office or a position of authority.
2. To serve as an officiant.
3. Sports To serve as a referee or umpire.
v.tr. Usage Problem
1. To perform from a position of authority (an official duty or function).
2. To serve as an officiant at (a ceremony): officiated the wedding ceremony.
3. To serve as a referee or umpire at (a game): officiated the hockey game.
[Medieval Latin officire, officit-, to conduct, from Latin officium, service, duty; see office.]
Hare Krsna.
Yes i think the main point that you overlooked was the RELATIONSHIP with the Diksa Guru is different than the relationship with the Shiksa Guru. The Shiksa and Diksa Guru function in the same way but have different dealings with the disciples. The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant. So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship????Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book. The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru. So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.
All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem. But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins?
What is the point in being so judgemental and agressive ,how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves?Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.
DUSYANTA DASA: Hare Krsna. Yes I think the main point that you overlooked was the RELATIONSHIP with the Diksa Guru is different than the relationship with the Shiksa Guru. The Shiksa and Diksa Guru function in the same way but have different dealings with the disciples.
[PD: Correct, the diksha guru provide pure divyam jnanam and he destroys / absorbs sins like Jesus, the shiksha guru may be a kanistha and he cannot perform these functions.]
DD: The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant.
[PD: No, the ritviks have an actual relation with Srila Prabhupada. How does Dusyanta know all these thousands of ritiks in Russia, China, Malaysia and so on, are pretenders? And if the ritivks are all pretenders, then who are the real followers of guru? And who is that guru? Dusyanta does not mention: Where the real process is being followed; Who is the real guru; What process is he himself following? Who does he worship as the guru, and who does he promote to others as the guru? He simple tells us, we have no guru to promote, ok, so who is the guru then?]
DD: So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship????
[PD: Because you are still getting the divyam jnanam which destroys sins through his vani.]
DD: Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book.
[PD: So who is the guru YOU CLAIM is giving the personal relationship with people now? Is it Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the Pirate’s ghosts on pier 13? And notice that Dusyanta, Locanananda, Rocana, George A Smith et al., they never give us the actual name of their alleged guru that they are all promoting? So they worship — zero, and / or promote worship of zero?]
DD: The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru.
[PD: Lord Krishna is not giving us “divyam jnanam which destroys sins” (aka diksha) by speaking the Bhagavad Gita? This is total atheist idea.]
DD: So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form, His Book form as Shiksa Guru. You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.
[PD: The divyam jnanam which destroys sins has stopped, says who? Where does Srila Prabhupada say that Lord Krishna’s divyam jnanam in the Bhagavad Gita has stopped because Krishna’s apparent manifest body is not appearing to us in a physical form? This is atheist idea, the Lord is dead because His physical form does not appear to us. Total atheism.]
DD: All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem.
[PD: And you are not identifying your souce of diksha? You are promoting nothing-ness as your source of diksha, this is atheism.]
DD: But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
[PD: But you have no guru at all? You never tell us who it is? So you have no vapuh, no vani, no books, no temples, no devotees, nothing-ness. This is sunnyavada, you worship zero. Atheism.]
DD: Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins?
[PD: Srila Prabhupada told us we can ONLY act as shiksha gurus, therefore do not allow people to touch your feet and take their sins.]
DD: What is the point in being so judgemental and agressive, how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves? Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.
[PD: Well we are simply asking you why you never offer up the name of your guru, show us his books, show us his devotees, show us what process you follow, and all you ever give us is one big fat zero for all of the above? We are sorry, we do not worship zero. This is atheist idea. ys pd]
Locanananda prabhu,
Regarding the will, you say the term “my initiated disciple” is irrelevant to how initiations are conducted presently. You say the lawyer insterted this phrase. Firstly, how do you know this, that the lawyer added this in ? And was it before or after Srila Prabhupada gave his signature ? Are you implying that Srila Prabhupada signed the will with “my initiated disciple” unknowingly ? If we are to understand that Srila Prabhupada is a personality beyond mistakes and illusion, then we must accept that Srila Prabhupada was perfectly cognizant of every detail of his will at the time of signing it. And as such, him signing his will with the precise stipulation of “my initiated disciple” was completely intentional. What you are proposing implies that Srila Prabhupada was unconscious of what he was signing, and it was a mistake, or you’re implying that it didn’t matter to him and such a critical detail made no difference to Srila Prabhupada. Otherwise the only sensible explanation to your proposal here is that the lawyer illegally changed Srila Prabhupada’s will after he signed it. Is that what you’re claiming, and if so where is the evidence ? As far as most of us are aware Srila Prabupada signed the final draft with “my initiated disciple”, and that’s final, there’s no need to argue about it. It should just be accepted as is without any interpretation.
Right, the will affirms that there will be his initiated disciples going into the future, when he is not here, because the will is all about — after he is not here. Of course since these people are not telling us who else is the guru, they are not offering any alternate idea. They just would rather see people worship zero than Srila Prabhupada. Sour grapes.
Duysanta dasa: The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant. So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship????Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book.
Mahesh: This is another concoction from your Vapuvadi camp. WHERE does Srila Prabhupada say in his books that VAPU (physical form) is requirement for TRANSMISSION of Divya Jnana(Diksa)? Go on prove it Prabhu – we want evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s books ONLY.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.
Note:In any case what the Vapuvadi camp got was FORMALITY INITIATION which Srila Prabhupada states is “That is not very important thing”. But the Vapuvadi camp want to make it that THIS is the main thing.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
SB 4.8.54 P Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest
Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.
Note: another thing is this FORMALITY INITIATION (1st and 2nd initiation) was conducted by representatives in many cases. So Srila Prabhupada was NOT EVEN at each and every place for fire sacrifice and name giving. Not only that BUT even the Gayatri Mantra was given in Tape and the instruction was given t o Temple Presidents.
Duysanta dasa: The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru. So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.
Mahesh: So now YOU Vapuvadi camp must hunt for another Diksa guru according to your OWN statement Srila Prabhupada disappeared: “So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.” These Vapuvadis have ZERO level of understanding on DIKSA.
Duysanta dasa: All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem. But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins?
What is the point in being so judgemental and agressive ,how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves?Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.
Mahesh: That is your concocted opinion from Vapuvadi camp. You have to prove that Srila Prabhupada’s physically presence( Vapu) is required to give Diksa. Prove it from Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Adi 1.99 The Spiritual Masters
One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.
Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA
SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA):
740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Puranjana dasa says: Sour grapes.
Yes. It’s “sour grapes” for both Rocana and Locanananda because the GBC wouldn’t let either of them be rubber-stamped gurus in a million years. The only way that they can puff themselves up is to put everyone else down. Both of them spew speculative nonsense which no one takes seriously. Neither of them have any books, temples or followers.
But at least Rocana has a website. What does Locanananda have? Nothing but hot air! Is he getting some sort of payoff from the GBC for trying to sow dissension among the ritviks or what?
If he associates with members of the criminal ISKCON leadership and is getting some sort of reward from them, that would explain why he’s so intransigently illogical. The ISKCON leaders are offensive to Srila Prabhupada. Therefore, they are worse association than the average karmi!
As a practical demonstration of the poisonous effects of associating with the ISKCON leaders, read how sane and rational Praghosa Dasa was 1998:
http://www.vnn.org/world/9804/24-1763/
Then, later on, because of bad ISKCON association, he went completely off the deep end, and is now no longer able to communicate like a sane, rational disciple of Srila Prabhupada.
That is exactly what happens when any one such as Dusyanta dasa and/ or Locananand dasa to name a few follow from the out-sider Instructions of the authorized Representatives of the Lord , one is deemed to be deviated and get delusional state of mind and thus feel lost from the Real Devotional Path as Instructed by the Acaraya Srila Prabhupada.
Therefore, the followers of the deviant gurus are not ready to accept the very simple Instructions As Is of the Pure Devotees Srila Prabhupada because they have a material desire and thus get cheated by following the Cheater gurus of all sorts. It is that simple.
Madhavananda Prabhu — You asked about the changing of the will from “AN initiated disciple” in the version that was read to and approved by Srila Prabhupada, to “MY initiated disciple” which appears in the final version that was presented to and signed by His Divine Grace. During the reading of the draft, Srila Prabhupada commented on a number of points, but he did not ask for the phrase “an initiated disciple” to be changed.
The responsibility of preparing the will was in the hands of Giriraja Swami. He has explained how the change in wording to “my initiated disciple” came about. He said it was based on their lawyer’s input that the change was made. It had nothing to do with how future initiations would be conducted. It was meant to further clarify that someone initiated in another line but not in our line could not serve as a trustee of an ISKCON property. There was a Vaisnava living in Vrndavana who was a friend of ISKCON ( don’t recall his name) that devotees thought would be a good choice to act as trustee, but Srila Prabhupada stipulated that he would have to be initiated in ISKCON first before he could assume that position. So, to tighten up the qualification of a trustee, and to make it clear under whose authority he would function, the wording was changed to “my initiated disciple” and the final version was then signed by Srila Prabhupada.
I do not know whether it was read aloud again to Srila Prabhupada or whether he himself read it over with the utmost care before signing it. The point I was making is that he did not ask that the change be made to conform to the ritvik concept whereby the acarya continues to offer diksa after entering samadhi. There is nothing in the way this wording developed to indicate anything about how initiations would be conducted in the future. The final wording was the choice of a lawyer and Srila Prabhupada signed off on it to strengthen the legal protection of ISKCON properties.
Here we go again, more Locanananda’s endless — on and on and on — bloviating, but notice he still has no name for the person he is promoting as his current diksha “living guru.” We told you he has no name for the guru he is promoting! And now he has proven that, again.
Srila Prabhupada says a person who does not name the guru is a mayavada. Why is Locanananda giving us all this mayavada nonsense? We are not Mayavadas, we need to know the name of the guru we are promoting, not some un-named phantasm that has no apparent existence?
If LD says there has to be a living guru, and he has none, then he is a mayavada, according to Srila Prabhupada. Who cares if a lawyer signed this or that? Rocana and Locanananda always say the living guru is in their tradition, but since they have none, they are not even following — their own tradition? This is hypocrisy,
First of all, why is it that neither Rocana nor Locanananda has NEVER, EVER, NEVER EVER, provided us with the name(s) of their living guru that they are promoting? Or what? Or are they promoting the tooth fairy, or maybe Santa Claus as their living person we all need to surrender to? Can we just get them to identify their living guru? Why is it that decades go by, and they still have no clue who their living guru is? Sheesh! This is worse than pushing a stalled car uphill, we just cannot even get to the first step with these folks. There needs to be a living guru, and his name is, ummmm, I fergits-pada? Are you guys smoking something? How come you cannot even remember the name of your live guru? ys pd
There have been a number of personal attacks that I choose to ignore because to respond to them will not advance anyone’s understanding of the initiation issue.
Here is an interesting sequence of statements made by Srila Prabhupada expressing how he intended his disciples to act as guru in the future.
Conversation of April 22, 1977
“Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, ‘Now you become acarya. You become authorized.’ I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.”
Conversation of May 28, 1977 (five weeks later)
SDG: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you, after this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
The next question SDG poses concerns the relationship of the officiating acarya with those who receive diksa from him:
SDG: What is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and ….
Srila Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
So, in Srila Prabhupada’s words, the officiating acarya is actually guru, not just a ceremonial priest who is officiating for the acarya.
Then Srila Prabhupada states, “In my presence, one should not become guru, so on my behalf.”
This means the devotee who will later act as officiating acarya serves as a ritvik representative during the spiritual master’s lifetime although he has the qualifications of a regular guru. During the lifetime of the spiritual master, as a formality, he continues to act on behalf of Srila Prabhupada in the sense that anyone receiving diksa from him during that time is considered directly initiated by Srila Prabhupada. Those initiated when Srila Prabhupada would no longer be present, or at that time when Srila Prabhupada so ordered, would be considered disciples of the officiating acarya and Srila Prabhupada’s grand disciples.
Always keep in mind how Srila Prabhupada responded when asked about the role of officiating acaryas (ritvik acaryas) in terms of the continuation of the guru parampara on May 28, 1977:
“These ritvik acaryas — they are officiating, giving diksa. The people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they?”
HE DID NOT SAY, “They are MY disciples.” HE SAID, “They are HIS disciples,” referring to the officiating acarya. So, based on this one Q & A, it is “case closed” on the ritvik concept of post-samadhi initiations by Srila Prabhupada. And keep in mind that Srila Prabhupada never made any statement even closely resembling, “I shall continue to directly initiate disciples of my own after I enter maha-samadhi.” No previous acarya has ever made such an outlandish statement nor is there even a single instance of such a practice mentioned in any Vaisnava scripture. Case locked and sealed shut.
Please keep in mind that my explanation of these conversations is in terms of how things were supposed to develop. No argument is being presented here to defend the GBC and its blatant disregard of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. Nor do I expect the GBC to implement the officiating acarya system of initiations in ISKCON because that would oblige them all to admit their culpability in hijacking the entire society, usurping the supreme authority of Srila Prabhupada and insisting upon the worship of conditioned souls as if they were maha-bhagavatas. They would all have to step down and beg forgiveness, not only of the Vaisnava followers of Srila Prabhupada, but of all the acaryas in our line going back to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for their loathesome deeds.
This Locanananada has been exposed. He is a CHEATER and now he is SOOOO desperate he is holding on to the last straw in the ocean. He is TOTALLY humiliated because NOBODY SANE will believe him.
He wants to DUPE us. Just see! Sorry buddy we are not kids. All these Jackals bogus GBC invented are PRETENDING TO BE DIKSA GURU and now Locanananada wants to a post. This guy is cunning:
LCFL Life Comes From Life
Srila Prabhupada. In Bengal there is a story called jangal-ki raja, concerning a jackal who became king of the forest. Jackals are known for their cunning. One day this jackal came into a village and fell into a tub of blue dye. He fled to the forest, but he had become blue. So all the animals said, “What is this? What is this? Who is this animal?” Even the lion was surprised: “We have never seen you before, sir. So who are you?” The jackal replied, “I have been sent by God.” So they began to worship him as God. But then one night some other jackals began to cry: “Wa, wa, wa!” And since jackals cannot restrain themselves from returning the call of their own kind, this blue jackal also began to cry, “Wa, wa, wa!” And thus he exposed himself before all the other animals as being nothing more than a jackal.
Locanananda dasa Prabhu,
Hare Krishna.
You seem like an intelligent person who concludes points 1,2 and 3 in your comments whatever you believe in the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada and yet very cleverly you are avoiding the question when asked ; ” Where is that such Authorization from Srila Prabhupada which is based in the three pointer of your conclusion presented in your comments ?”
Is it a difficult question to answer, if I may ask one more time ?
Awaiting to hear further from you and remain,
YS …….. Amar Puri.
Puranjana dasa says: Here we go again, more Locanananda’s endless — on and on and on — bloviating, but notice he still has no name for the person he is promoting as his current diksha “living guru.”
Bloviating for sure!
Locanananda, like Rocana, is obviously only promoting himself. But he has no followers, no temples, no books, and no website! Just a lot of hot air that no one takes seriously. Why should we waste any more time with him?
For Locanananda to say that Srila Prabhupada’s written, signed documents don’t really mean what they say is extremely offensive. Why are we putting up with this nonsense?
I finally got it! They are “his” maharaja’s disciples! All glories to “his” maharaja, the acharya of the Jagat! … I got to go take my percodans now. Heh, heh, heh … ys pd
Dear Prabhupadanugas,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am with Mahesh Raja Prabhu and Puranjana Prabhu.
But there is the following words by Prabhupada that I don not understand–
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.
I interpret this as meaning that Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were bonafide.But He said many times not to associate with His Godbrothers.
I will be very grateful if anyone is very kind enough to clear my confusion.
Your servant,
Santosh
Srila Prabhupada does NOT state that the Ritvik (officiating acarya) will have disciples.
a) What he actually states is “They are his disciples … who is initiating.”
Thus the disciples belong to ‘who is initiating’, not ‘who is officiating’.
b) This is further proven by the fact that Srila Prabhupada is asked the ownership of the disciples of those who have undergone officiation by the ‘officiating-acaryas’ – Plural.
If Srila Prabhupada wanted to say that the disciples belonged to the officiating-acaryas, he would have had to say – “They are THEIR disciples” – thus tying up with the question.
Rather he assigns the disciples to a SINGULAR entity, and the only singular entity referred to in the conversation is the initiator – Srila Prabhupada.
c) That Srila Prabhupada is speaking in the 3rd person is proven by the next line where Srila Prabhupada speaks of ‘HIS Grand-disciple’.
This ‘HIS‘ is the same ‘HIS‘ just referred to in ‘They are HIS disciples’, and can only refer to SRILA PRABHUPADA, since the Ritvik (officiating acarya) does not have grand-disciples.
Of course Srila Prabhupada then immediately adds that the grand-disciples will only emerge when he specifically orders Gurus – an order he never gave.
All Locanananda’s bogus arguments have been defeated years ago …..
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/Locanananda.htm
Dear Prabhupadanugas,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am with Mahesh Raja Prabhu and Puranjana Prabhu.
But there is the following words by Prabhupada that I don not understand–
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.
I interpret this as meaning that Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were bonafide. But He said many times not to associate with His Godbrothers. I will be very grateful if anyone is very kind enough to clear my confusion. Your servant, Santosh
PD: Right, sometimes on a rare moment Srila Prabhupada was very kind an liberal with his God brothers, saying they were doing Lord Chaitanya’s work, while at other times, ok most of the other times, he said they are not authorized, hijackers of the mission, business men, envious, snakes, cock roaches — who think they are the Garuda bird, usurpers, hogs and dogs, bugs biting the king, kill guru and become guru, homosexual gurus, bi-sexual gurus, sex and sex gurus and etc.
We have to look at his overall statements on any issue, and the over all idea is — that a person becomes guru when he is ordered and authorized by Krishna (chaitya guru) and his own guru, and therefore what he said almost all the time is that — his God brothers were not ordered or authorized, and neither did he order or authorize any of his own disciples to become gurus.
If you notice he is not making any specific order here, this is the general principle, the disciple later becomes a guru. OK, this begs the question, when, and in the case of us former hamburger eating mlecchas, quite a long time, most likely, many lifetimes. Or maybe not even then, we may only make it to be the humble cobbler who never becomes acharya. Srila Prabhupada specifically said in a letter to Rupangua that amongst my God brothers no one is qualified to be acharya, So we have to look at all the statements.
This is also the trouble with Locanananda, the GBC, Rocana, et al, yes he said he wanted everyone of his disciples to become gurus, fine, that is like the kindergarten teacher — he tells all his students he expects them to become brain surgeons, ooooops, that does not mean, we can give a hack saw and a black and decker drill to the kindergarten students, and tell them to start performing brain surgery now? We have to look at the entire context of these statements, and always remember, a general order is not a specific order. ys pd
Santosh Prabhu
This point is about ENCOURAGING his disciples and IRM folks have already covered it in detail:
http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/Reply_to_Hari_Sauri's_14points.htm
Now, if you look here Srila Prabhupada states that training must be complete to be Acarya and Tamal Krsna ALSO admits they are CONDITIONED SOULS.
770422r3.bom Conversations
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, “Now you become acarya. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Tamala Krsna: The process of purification must be there.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana. “You become guru.” (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower…
Tamala Krsna: Not rubber stamp.
Prabhupada: Then you’ll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and “guru.” What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff… My Guru Maharaja used to say, “Joint mess,” a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): “Joint mess.” He said this.
Now the date conversation took place was in APRIL 1977 BUT in 9th JULY 1977 (ONLY 3 MONTHS) Srila Prabhupada ONLY Authorised Ritviks NOT Gurus – FACT.
The GBC went to Srila Prabhupada to get ORDER to be Guru 1977 – they did NOT get it:
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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We also see that Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers were NOT Acarya infact they were ENVIOUS of Srila Prabhupada.
And what is obvious is that in the books Srila Prabhupada did not compromise AT ALL! :
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
maha-bhagavata-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said: gurur nrnam. The word nrnam means “of all human beings.”
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.
The situation was that some of the agitator disciples were so much eager to TAKE-OVER Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa Guru position that to diffuse the tension this is required. So one may say that Srila Prabhupada cheated:
750302rc.atl Conversations
Prabhupada: No, the thing is that Krsna’s service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulation on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Krsna, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does… Just like a mother says to his child, “My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo.” The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other… That is the instruction of Rupa Gosvami, yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet: “Somehow or other, let everyone be Krsna conscious.” There is no question of vidhi-nisedha. Sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Krsna consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating.
AND WHAT WE HAVE TO CONCLUDE IS YES SRILA PRABHUPADA -HAD- TO CHEAT THEM. The disciples wanted POWER,ADORATION,DISCIPLES,MONEY – but medicine was RENUNCIATION of sense gratification the means to SEE and go back to Vrndavana(Back to Godhead): visaya chadiya kabe suddha ha ‘be mana kabe hama herabo, sri-vrndavana:
750409CC.MAY Lectures
So whatever description is there of Vrndavana, that is expansion of Krsna’s pleasure potency. They are not different. Therefore in the beginning it is said, divyad, “shining,” or “divine,” “transcendental.” So we should not consider Vrndavana as ordinary forest. Here we have got Vrndavana on this planet. That is also not ordinary forest. The exactly the same Vrndavana as it is Goloka Vrndavana… There is no difference. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura says that
visaya chadiya kabe suddha ha ‘be mana
kabe hama herabo, sri-vrndavana
Visaya chadiya. Our present position is that we are materially diseased, so we have to become free from the material disease. Material disease means sense gratification, and the most formidable disease is sex. This is called material disease. So visaya chadiya. We have to be, become free from the contamination of visaya, material enjoyment. This is the statement of Narottama dasa Thakura.
visaya chadiya kabe suddha ha ‘be mana
kabe hama herabo sri-vrndavana
“When my mind will be cleansed of all material desires, then I shall be able to see what is Vrndavana.” It is very difficult to see Vrndavana with material desires. Bhakti means the first qualification is to become free from all material desires. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam.
This is NOT easy – Ragunatha das Gosvami’s renunciation showed how to achieve the transcendental stage. Srila Prabhupada is EXPERT the way he did NOT compromise this to the end. And this is the reason I believe he was given poison to kill him by his leading disciples.
Bhakta Hugh says: Srila Prabhupada does NOT state that the Ritvik (officiating acharya) will have disciples.
No. Not “officiating acharya!” Srila Prabhupada only used that terminology once and he never put it in writing. He obviously changed his mind about using that terminology. The improved terminology that he, later on, actually put in writing several times is “ritvik representative of the Acharya (Srila Prabhupada),” which is much more clear, easier to understand, and less subject to interpretation by self-motivated rascals.
I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, “Do it”, your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, “Sir, you said me like this before.” No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is obedience. (Srila Prabhupada, April 15, 1975)
If the captain of the ship says “5 degrees starboard” and the first mate replies, “But captain, before you told me ’10 degrees port,'” then it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane. (From point #1 of http://pratyatosa.com/?P=27 – “Sixteen Points to Consider Regarding the Ritvik Issue”)
[Krishna consciousness] is simple for the simple, but it is very hard for the crooked. (Srila Prabhupada, December 26, 1969)
Unlike Srila Prabhupada’s “crooked” so-called followers, his “simple” followers are not confused by things that he said prior to his July 9, 1977 directive to all temple presidents/GBC men. Srila Prabhupada is allowed to change his mind! We cannot hold him prisoner to the things that he said prior to changing his mind! To do so is rascaldom!
Dear Prabhupadanugas,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am with Mahesh Raja Prabhu and Puranjana Prabhu.
But there is the following words by Prabhupada that I don not understand–
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.
I interpret this as meaning that Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were bonafide. But He said many times not to associate with His Godbrothers. I will be very grateful if anyone is very kind enough to clear my confusion. Your servant, Santosh
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Santosh Prabhu lets look at ANOTHER point the conversation above took place in 1971. BUT 6 years later in 1977 we find that Srila Prabhupada ONLY authorised them as Ritviks. So if it was so obvious that the 10,000 plus were ALL Diksa gurus (including women AND CHILDREN) WHY did they not ALL get their own Vysasanas in temples in 1977 ?
And —the GBC went in 1977 to ASK Srila Pabhupada ABOUT INITIATIONS IN FUTURE. This means they were NOT authorised in 1971. It is just common-sense that in 1971 Srila Prabhupada was only encouraging them.
Just like Father says to the diseased son you eat the medicine and I will give you a whole BIG box of candy and when the son takes the medicine there is no BIG box of candy.
Hare Krsna!
Locanananda prabhu,
You are implying that Prabhupada signed his will without knowing what it said, which also implies that Prabhupada himself is subject to mistake and illusion.
You are implying that Prabhupada, after being asked specifically about how initiations would be conducted after his departure, gave no written instructions whatsoever, but rather issued a signed letter to the entire society which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter.
You do not acknowledge that although Prabhupada did state “his disciple” and “grand disciple”, he also said when he orders. Where exactly is that order you do not say.
You are proposing a completely new idea in which initiated devotees do not have any diksa guru. You are completely unclear about what is the realationship of the person who is accepting disciples. Prabhupada has clearly explained it simply that there is 2 types of guru: one person who is the diksa guru of a devotee – and who is worshiped as good as God, and others who are instructing/siksa gurus – those who give instructions fully in line with the diksa guru. You do not explain at all who is the diksa guru. We all know that it is the diksa guru who is worshiped as good as God, but you do not say at all who that person is.
You have introduced something new altogether which you do not back up with any statement from Prabhupada. Your entire argument is simply based on the May 28th conversation alone, with no evidence from Prabhupada vani to support the idea that a ritvik, or officiating acarya, whichever you may call it, accepts his own disciples. There is no meaning to accepting disciples if there is no relationship thereafter, no exchange of instructions and service between the devotee and the “initiator”, and it is simply a matter of formality. Where has Prabhupada ever described such a thing ? Yes, the initiation ceremony is one aspect of diksa, but it is not the essence, it is not even absolutely essential. What is essential is the transmission of knowledge, which is coming primarily from Prabhupada. Why do you ignore all these points ? You are defining guru and parampara with all the same bodily conceptions and limitations as the GBC, putting all emphasis on the formality aspect and physical body. We expect disciples who have so much of years and experience as yourself to give higher realizations beyond the body.
You are proposing something which does not make any sense to anyone. How could you expect a movement to function on the basis of something which makes no sense to anyone at all ? I don’t see anyone else who agrees with this as it implies that Prabhupada made a mistake in signing his will, and that he introduced some entirely new concept which he never spoke of anywhere, and which itself is a contradiction – the idea that officiating acaryas accept their own disciples and do not accept worship. Officiating means to do it on behalf of Prabhupada, but then to say that the disciples are their own is a contradiction. If they accept their own disciples, then they are diksa gurus and are to be worshiped by the disciples. Why do you beat around the bush on this point ?
None of us were aware when we did the initiation ceremony at the Queens center, that you were thinking that you were intiating your own disciples. Do you believe that any of us were thinking like that ? Ajata Satru and Raja Vidya may not even be aware, and I’m sure they’d be quite surprised if they were told they were initiated as your own disciples and not Prabhupada’s. We just heard you speak of officiating and that only Prabhupada should be worshiped and all along we were under the assumption that you were conducting the ceremony on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, and that the devotees were being accepted as Prabhupada’s disciples. You speak of the GBC doing bate and switch, but this seems just like the same bate and switch program which you are doing yourself.
You keep saying that Prabhupada never said he would accept disciples after his departure. I’ve given the quotes of what Prabhupada did say when asked about having a successor, and he referred to the zonal system. He did not mention anything about his disciples initiating their own disciples. He has given many indications of how he would continue to accept disciples, without having to state it point blank. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati also did not say point blank what exactly the situation would be after his departure, but he gave indications. Prabhupada has given the indications in various places which have all been presented, including the statements to reporters, the may 28th conversation combined with the July 9th letter, his will which cannot be some mistake or accident as you propose, and all the many statements about guru that one must be an uttama adhikari to accept disciples, and thus be worshiped as good as God. Many supporting quotes have been given which you have not acknowledged, nor have you given any supporting statements for your theory, let alone the May 28th conversation.
I do not understand why you keep promoting this idea. It’s nice that you say only Prabhupada should be worshiped, but then to deny that anyone else can become a disciple of Prabhupada is a contradiction. If everyone becomes someone elses’ disciple, then the worship and focus will never be completely on Prabhupada, it will be diverted in so many ways, and you are supporting this. Is it simply for the sake of having some kind of recognition or official title of being an exclusive Prabhupada disciple with one’s own disciples ? It is surprising to me because I always thought of you as above this. But otherwise, I don’t know why you are proposing this theory which makes no sense at all. No one is being inspired by this; Whereas with the ritvik system, many devotees are inspired to become a disciple of Prabhupada. This should be encouraged. I know you can inspire with your kirtans and preaching, but if it all comes down to a bait and switch program, the purpose is defeated.
710718RC.DET Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters.
I interpret this as meaning that Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers were bonafide. But He said many times not to associate with His Godbrothers. I will be very grateful if anyone is very kind enough to clear my confusion. Your servant, Santosh
Dear Santosh, as Mahesh Raja and Puranjana Dasa Prabhu explain and answer your questions differently on different angle so that a person like yourself may understand the mood of Srila Prabhupada when he encourages to all his disciples to become QUALIFIED and adores his godbrothers. For an example, when Srila Prabhupada says some positive remarks about his godbrothers, it is out of the courtesy as an etiquettte Srila Prabhupada offer such remarks. As we have read in the Krishna Book that the Father of Shri Krishna, Shri Vasudeva adores and appreciates his friend king Kamsa simply out of etiquette. Does that mean king Kamsa as good as Vaishnava Shri Vasudeva ? The same goes for Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers. Are they as good as Srila Prabhupada ? The answer is very clear, Is it NOT ? Hope it helps you understand better. Hari BOL… All Glories to Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.
Madhavananda Prabhu — Of course, everyone who joins this movement is first and foremost a follower of Srila Prabhupada and should be encouraged to surrender to ISKCON’s founder acarya who is the eternal spiritual master of us all. Do you agree with this or not? If not, we have a serious problem.
Secondly, it is only Srila Prabhupada who should be worshipped as guru in the Hare Krishna movement.
Agreed?
Third, Srila Prabhupada’s order was that initiations would be conducted by officiating acaryas, particularly at that time “when he would no longer be present with us.” Maybe you don’t agree with this, but I think you will have to admit that these were Srila Prabhupada’s own words.
I think you can see how this flies in the face of the GBC who want to authorize the worship of non-liberated souls as if they were maha-bhagavata devotees. They also reject the term “officiating acarya” because, as I was told by the GBC chairman, “It sounds too ritvik.” This was the term chosen by Srila Prabhupada and he did not change his mind about this. He used the term ritvik acarya synonymously with officiating acarya, and these terms were used interchangeably in the May 28, 1977 conversation with the GBC select committee. If you want to reject these terms, we have another problem, but not one that is insurmountable. Acarya means guru, or one who teaches by example.
According to sastra, one who is conversant with the science of Krishna can act as guru. We also know that Srila Prabhupada wanted to see his disciples become acarya-like in every sense of the word. He wanted the training to be completed.
Now I am not saying that any of the eleven “rittik – representatives of the acarya” were pure devotees.
As in so many instances, Srila Prabhupada was giving an elevated level of responsibility to those disciples who had shown extraordinary leadership qualities with the great hope that Krishna would guide them from within in the proper execution of this new service he was entrusting to them. The truth of the matter is that a sinister element took hold of them and they subsequently began to follow their tendency to control everything by exacting worship from everyone else. In this way, they attempted to solidify their claim to Srila Prabhupada’s seat.
I have spoken about the GBC summary report of their Vrndavana meetings from May 27-29, 1977. My concern is that the report was probably not shown to Srila Prabhupada before being sent out to the temple presidents, unlike resolutions passed at the GBC meetings in Mayapur which Srila Prabhupada would always comment upon and have revised before giving his approval. From my experience, I can tell you that he would have been livid to have learned that there was no mention in the report of the protocol he had established for officiating acaryas to conduct initiations in the future. Srila Prabhupada was aware of the sinister plans that were evolving to have successor gurus replace him. The ritvik initiation system he had proposed was meant to keep non-liberated souls from taking his seat of honor. As the knower of past, present and future, he was aware that the GBC would introduce bogus worship that would be enforced to the point that the godbrothers of these so-called gurus would have to participate or be ostracized. These ambitions of his closest servants were all known to Srila Prabhupada. It was told to me that he even said to the GBC men, “You are all just waiting for me to die.”
The followers of Chubby Checker on this board really enjoy twisting my words, but because you are apparently upset by what I tried to explain about the will, I will try again to explain what I meant. Srila Prabhupada of course signed the final draft of the will which included the phrase “MY initiated disciple.”
No one is denying that. I would also have expected him to read the will in its entirety before signing it which means he knew it said “my initiated disciple.” He did not object to the new wording, just as he had not objected to the previous wording. I do not know whether he asked about the changing of the phrase but as I have already pointed out, it was introduced into the will by a lawyer who understood that Srila Prabhupada wanted to protect the ISKCON properties from people who were not his faithful servants. I think you will agree that the lawyer was not aware of the ritvik concept of initiation, but he did know how to better protect ISKCON’s property interests. I never said Srila Prabhupada made a mistake with regard to the will. I said only that Srila Prabhupada did not request that the wording be changed in order to establish the ritvik initiation concept. My conclusion, therefore, is that the wording “MY initiated disciple” in the will cannot be presented as proof that Srila Prabhupada intended to continue to initiate disciples of his own by giving them diksa after entering maha-samadhi.
To continue, Madhavananda Prabhu, I cannot say whether Srila Prabhupada did or did not give further written or spoken instruction concerning future initiations beyond what we are already aware of. We are quite sure there were other tapes recorded during his final six months that have been either hidden or destroyed. Pratyatosa Prabhu has mentioned here that there were conversations between Srila Prabhupada and his secretary during which the ritvik concept was discussed before the May 28th, 1977 meeting with the GBC. Gauridasa Pandit has said that Srila Prabhupada was asked about whether there would be special vyasasanas for these ritvik acaryas and he was clearly told, “No.” Pita dasa prabhu told us that Srila Prabhupada spoke about ritvik acaryas on several occasions, “transparent to the previous acarya,” but where are these recordings? If recordings were made, they are all gone, and so many other talks about this subject of ritvik are probably also gone or were never recorded.
Just as the GBC did not release information concerning future initiations in its summary report, and just as the transcript of the May 28th conversation was hidden away (I saw it for the first time in September, 1985), it is more than likely that Srila Prabhupada had been quarantined and silenced by those around him, that sinister element, and whatever he wanted to communicate to the devotees never saw the light of day. So I cannot say that there was no further instruction he wanted passed along to all ISKCON leaders, only that it did not happen.
It was the duty mainly of Ramesvara dasa to get the word out since he was sending the monthly BBT newsletter to all temples all over the world, but the summary report of the GBC meetings, which was sent out from his office, was a cover up. It did not mention how initiations would be conducted post-samadhi. The GBC did not agree with Srila Prabhupada and they had ideas of their own. They had to keep hidden all he had said concerning initiations at that time when he would no longer be present. They themselves wanted to be worshiped by disciples who would serve their every whim. What they wanted is what they got, but it was not in agreement with what Srila Prabhupada had prescribed.
Many devotees were waiting in the wings for Srila Prabhupada to start initiating again. I had recommended devotees for initiation from Amsterdam, but months had passed with no word. Then
we received the July 9th letter which instructed us to go through our GBC who was named in the letter as a “rittik – representative of the acarya.” I have to tell you that no one I spoke to thought this letter had anything to do with what was to happen after Srila Prabhupada’s pastimes ended. Astrologers were saying he might live another ten years if he pulled through his illness. For us, this letter was about the backlog of initiation candidates. And when Srila Prabhupada left this world, no one really knew what would be arranged as far as future initiations were concerned, and it wasn’t even on our minds. We were all lost, but one thing is for sure — there was no talk of Srila Prabhupada continuing to give diksa post-samadhi because it was not what he had ever taught.
We knew he was not happy with how he had been treated by his godbrothers. We knew Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati had said Srila Prabhupada would do everything in his own time. The Gaudiya Matha was urged by Saraswati Maharaja to form a GBC to manage the preaching. He did not name a successor to act as Acarya of the Gaudiya Matha institution but he did expect someone to emerge one day as Acarya. In the meantime, sannyasis gave diksa. No bogus ritvik initiations were performed while waiting for the next acarya to appear. Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers were initiating, but Srila Prabhupada did not consider any of them qualified to act as Acarya of the Gaudiya Matha because they had no vision to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world.
(more tomorrow)
*** As in so many instances, Srila Prabhupada was giving an elevated level of responsibility to those disciples who had shown extraordinary leadership qualities with the great hope that Krishna would guide them from within in the proper execution of this new service he was entrusting to them.
[PD: Being a parampara guru is not a service, maybe washing pots is a service. Its also not a position or post, its a divine title given to a person who has fully self-realized who is God Almighty. This is also not a “new service, old service,” etc. Its a title given to a person who has realized Krishna. End of story.]
*** The truth of the matter is that a sinister element took hold of them and they subsequently began to follow their tendency to control everything by exacting worship from everyone else. In this way, they attempted to solidify their claim to Srila Prabhupada’s seat.
[PD: Srila Prabhupada said there was a great sinister movement within his movement in 1971. The sinister element was always there. I would argue, the sinister movement eventually poisoned Srila Prabhupada in order to take over his seat. Many folks agree with us on this point.]
*** I have spoken about the GBC summary report of their Vrndavana meetings from May 27-29, 1977. My concern is that the report was probably not shown to Srila Prabhupada before being sent out to the temple presidents, unlike resolutions passed at the GBC meetings in Mayapur which Srila Prabhupada would always comment upon and have revised before giving his approval.
[PD: There were many other meetings prior to May 28th. Tamal refers to those meetings for example saying five or six of us met before on this topic, and Gauridasa says they discussed the ritvik issue previously, and that is why Tamal knew what the term ritvik was. There are also numerous missing tapes from that era. My feeling is that the alleged May 28th tape is a splice – up of several of those conversations.]
*** From my experience, I can tell you that he would have been livid to have learned that there was no mention in the report of the protocol he had established for officiating acaryas to conduct initiations in the future.
[PD: Yasodananda asked Tamal how would initiations be conducted in the future in July, and Tamal said there would be ritviks. This is written in YND’s original copy diary.]
*** Srila Prabhupada was aware of the sinister plans that were evolving to have successor gurus replace him. The ritvik initiation system he had proposed was meant to keep non-liberated souls from taking his seat of honor. As the knower of past, present and future, he was aware that the GBC would introduce bogus worship that would be enforced to the point that the godbrothers of these so-called gurus would have to participate or be ostracized. These ambitions of his closest servants were all known to Srila Prabhupada. It was told to me that he even said to the GBC men, “You are all just waiting for me to die.”
[PD: Which is apparently why they used poison, they could not wait any longer.]
*** The followers of Chubby Checker on this board really enjoy twisting my words, but because you are apparently upset by what I tried to explain about the will, I will try again to explain what I meant.
[PD: Your explanation that I addressed is: your idea that someone was designated, “they will be his disciples,” but no names are given on that tape, its a general order, “everyone should become guru, amara ajyaya guru hana” and not a specific order for any specific persons.]
*** Srila Prabhupada of course signed the final draft of the will which included the phrase “MY initiated disciple.”
[PD: OK good, so in the future he wanted the directors to be his disciples, “the will” means, after he is gone.]
*** No one is denying that. I would also have expected him to read the will in its entirety before signing it which means he knew it said “my initiated disciple.” He did not object to the new wording, just as he had not objected to the previous wording. I do not know whether he asked about the changing of the phrase but as I have already pointed out, it was introduced into the will by a lawyer who understood that Srila Prabhupada wanted to protect the ISKCON properties from people who were not his faithful servants.
[PD: Its a mute point, the idea HDG had was: that he wanted to continue to be the acharya of HIS OWN mission, with his vani being the “living guidance” and therefore the followers in the future would be his.]
*** I think you will agree that the lawyer was not aware of the ritvik concept of initiation, but he did know how to better protect ISKCON’s property interests. I never said Srila Prabhupada made a mistake with regard to the will. I said only that Srila Prabhupada did not request that the wording be changed in order to establish the ritvik initiation concept.
[PD: He never specified that the future followers would have another guru, or that his current followers were qualified to give diksha and so on, de facto, that makes him the acharya for the indefinite future, and / or henceforward.]
*** My conclusion, therefore, is that the wording “MY initiated disciple” in the will cannot be presented as proof that Srila Prabhupada intended to continue to initiate disciples of his own by giving them diksa after entering maha-samadhi.
[PD: We do not need to prove anything? If anyone else was supposed to give diksha, aka provide pure divyam jnanam and absorb sins like Jesus, no one has been able to show us who that is, its a mute point.
Its like saying to us, we have to “prove” that the sun is the illuminating factor for the planet. Well, it is, until and unless something bigger and / or better appears to provide illumination, then, de facto, the sun is the current illuminating factor. There is nothing to debate unless there is some alternate luminary process shown to us. There is none being provided to us?
So there is nothing to prove. What our opponents need to prove is the exact opposite, they need to prove there is another source of illumination, and they clearly haven’t done so at this stage. They have made many false starts, but nothing of substance. OK they have light-up some loud fire crackers and made a big noise, and blew up huge chunks of ISKCON in the process, sorry that is not replacing the sun.
We have therefore proved our point all along, we have the ultimate source of illumination process. We have proved that in spades. There is nothing further we need to “prove.” ys pd]
We can offer discipline to anyone, for a short time, and as long as they are listening to us and following the sequence of orders and learning the ropes, they are under our discipline, but that doesn’t mean they are OUR DISCIPLE. To call a person your disciple directly implies ownership, exclusivity and a level of Mastery.
This is what a teacher, a parent , or a king does. If the discipline offered is in line with spiritual principles, they are representing the Acarya or Siksa Guru who laid out the entire body of spiritual principles for that asrama, regardless of whether that asrama encompasses a building or two and the surrounding 5 acres of land, or the entire earth planet.
Such a Spiritual MASTER and Acarya also initiates disciples by mantra which is considered “formal” Diksa. And as we have seen, that Acarya may use representative priests to not only give formal mantra Diska initiation, but also instruct sadhana as well, and never once speak to their disciple (in Vapu), yet is totally present for the disciple through instructions in books and as given by the representative.
Neophytes equate Spiritual masters with physical bodies. Therefore, they consider that once an Acarya is “gone”, that a new “time place and circumstance” has arisen, and some new “body” (perhaps their own, or maybe their idol of the day) needs to provide a new discipline. Sure, maybe keep some of the discipline learned from the dead Acarya as a basis to build on, but now is the chance to speculate and shine as a guiding light for others, and become an absolute indispensable necessity for a group of disciples who will constantly need to check in with you as their eternal leader. What a rush!
Such a fool is NOT qualified to release those who follow their orders from the clutches of Maha Maya. They may transfer the exact diksa mantras that they stole from the acarya, and their followers may repeat them duly, but the foolish leader is not able to instruct their followers in a program of sadhana wherein those mantras will have the desired effect. As is indicated in the NOD, one may only rise to the level of the adhikari of the person they accept discipline from. The NOD is clear that anyone of any level of advancement may accept disciples (meaning YOU listen to my guidance exclusively type of disciple), but ONLY an UTTAMA has MASTERED the process and can become a Spiritual MASTER, whose guidance (discipline) will bring the disciple to the ultimate goal. The guidance of a “master” giving discipline according to a limited understanding of the science can only bring the disciple to THAT particular level of understanding. Quite logical.
The temple presidents of Iskcon were meant to re-present to new aspirants, word for word, both the mantras AND the sadhana disciplines given by the Founder-Acarya, Srila Prabhupada. Only in this way could a new follower come under the total guidance and discipline of an Uttama adhikari Mahabhagavata, and be released from sinful life.
Logic dictates that if in fact a disciple of Srila Prabhupada were to become an advanced uttama, that Supersoul would not dictate that they accept exclusive disciples within Iskcon the way an Acarya does who gives unique discipline according to tome place and circumstance.
Why would supersoul want someone giving guidance (disciplines) that were one way for some and different for others IN THE SAME ASRAMA?
Supersoul would not want such chaos. Iskcon had just begun! There were many beginners who hadn’t yet finished the process already given.
Those who wanted to continue the practices of Iskcon were kicked out! Now Gaura Keshava Das has changed the order in which pujari’s offer bhoga to the Deities on the Altar! Change Change Change. It is impossible to stick with one process in Iskcon because there are 50 different people trying to tell you what that process is! It is insanity.
The fact is that every qualified Temple President was meant to be disciplinarian to many Bhaktas.
And perform many initiation ceremonies. And pass on Diksa Mantras.
But if you did not create the discipline, you are NOT the Spiritual Master of the Asrama, and those new Bhaktas are NOT “YOUR” exclusive disciples. You are NOT the Diksa Guru. And as far as being Siksa Guru is concerned, as long as you are repeating the handful of disciplines you are authorized to instruct to students, and never deviate, that sounds like a pure devotee to me. Maybe not an Uttama adhikari. But that was the beauty of the Ritvik system of Iskcon.
You might only be a advanced neophyte with a still somewhat weak understanding of Krsna and Supersoul and the 4 divisions of people, but if you purely followed the rules and regs, kept up the program of kirtana and arcana in the temple, and followed Srila Prabhupada’s orders for ritvik initiation, you could be a leader (temple president) and help him initiate new Bhaktas into the movement.
All it takes is enough faith in the Acarya to follow his instructions and teach from his books and not act more advanced than you are.
We advise devotees to worship Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru and let LUNATICS worship their OWN kind:
ISKCON’S *****CONDITIONED****** soul bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus:
WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.
Gaura Keshava changed the order, now they offer bhogha to Krishna first, then down the parampara chain to Srila Prabhupada, and then their local zonal living guru. He did that because people were asking, how can we have prasadam if we are offering to a guru who might be engaged in debauchery? So now Gaura Keshava says we can offer everything direct to Krishna. Of course Srila Prabhupada says we have to offer to the guru first, and then the guru offers to Krishna on our behalf. So, yes that was changed so they could still keep the photos of conditioned souls and debauchees on the altars right at Krishna’s feet. ys pd
(continued from above)
Within the Gaudiya Matha, after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, there was no proposal that anyone receiving diksa was still being initiated by him. Why is that? We are taught that the activities of the vaisnava acarya are inconceivable. Therefore, when his pastimes came to an end here, the thinking of his disciples was that he has returned to the abode of Krishna. In our case, Srila Prabhupada said he would come back for any of his disciples who did not succeed in escaping the cycle of birth and death by becoming fully Krishna conscious. On the other hand, he would say, “Don’t make the spiritual master come back.” As far as I am concerned, the ritvik idea of initiation you suggest means you are willing to detain Srila Prabhupada. You are ordering him to remain here and take more and more disciples. Srila Prabhupada, in his final days, was saying that Caitanya Mahaprabhu ordered that one NOT take many disciples and that he had not followed Mahaprabhu’s recommendation. But now you want him to continue to take more and more disciples and keep coming back. What kind of proposal is that? Of course, Srila Prabhupada will be offering his blessings to anyone who molds his life in such a way that he always adheres to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. If it is Srila Prabhupada’s nitya-lila to carry on preaching somewhere else within the material domain on the order of Sri Krishna, it should be understood that his activity of initiating disciples here ended on November 14, 1977 even though that activity may be going on now elsewhere, but again, that is beyond our capability of knowing.
I think you will agree that His Holiness Kesava Maharaja who was Srila Prabhupada’s sannyasa guru was a bonafide vaisnava acarya. When he left this world in 1968 Srila Prabhupada praised him saying “He saved me,” meaning he convinced Srila Prabhupada to take sannyasa so he could fulfill the order of his spiritual master by preaching Krishna consciousness throughout the world. Among the residents of Kesava Maharaja’s matha there was no talk of Kesava Maharaja continuing to initiate through ritviks after he entered samadhi. Why not? Do you think he didn’t have the potency or that he was not that compassionate? Srila Prabhupada said he had returned to the spiritual world to reside there in the association of Radha and Krishna. That is how we are to think of the departed vaisnava acarya, that he has returned to the eternal abode.
We understand that formal initiation is basically a formality, like the student who is accepted by a school’s admissions officer. The essence of our spiritual life has to do with where we surrender in terms of mind, body and intelligence. I have always said the point of surrender is at Srila Prabhupada’s lotus feet and I know you are in agreement with this.
The question at hand is how Srila Prabhupada wanted initiations to be managed. You and I agree that during his lifetime, in his presence, anyone receiving diksa, either Harinam or mantra diksa, was being formally initiated by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada had stated this beginning in 1972 when he wrote to Revatinandana Swami that even though he was authorizing him to chant on initiation beads, those receiving initiation were Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. In the May 28th conversation as well as in the July 9th letter, this was stated again. This leaves us with a disagreement over who is giving diksa when Srila Prabhupada is no longer with us. Your argument is that Srila Prabhupada is still directly accepting disciples by giving diksa and you support your argument with the will’s “my initiated disciple” and the July 9th letter’s “henceforward.” Then you say that the transmission of knowledge through his writings is diksa and I say it is siksa, just as when Krishna imparted transcendental knowledge to Arjuna by speaking Bhagavad-gita.
You go on to say that we should not be placing limits on the pure devotee in terms of time and space, and that he is permitted to make adjustments to the law of disciplic succession. My position is that only slight adjustments can be made but the spirit of disciplic succession must be maintained. The concept of giving formal diksa after departing this world is a change in the spirit of disciplic succession, not a slight adjustment. You say the spiritual master can give diksa after entering samadhi while I say Srila Prabhupada never made such a statement, nor has any acarya in the past in any of the authorized lines of disciplic succession ever made such an outlandish assertion.
As you have already noticed, I always return to the May 28th conversation where Srila Prabhupada was asked about those people who would receive diksa from officiating acaryas when he would no longer be present. His answer was not “They are MY disciples.” He was rejecting your ritvik conclusion. Rather he said they were disciples of the officiating acarya. “They are HIS disciples.” This conversation was all about the formalities of initiation and the qualifications of whoever was going to conduct initiations. In terms of the formalities, those initiated during Srila Prabhupada’s lifetime were his disciples. Those initiated afterwards were his grand disciples. The only difference between them is in terms of formalities. A grand disciple can be just as dear to Srila Prabhupada as any disciple initiated directly by him. A grand disciple can be equally blessed by Srila Prabhupada as any directly initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. A grand disciple has as good a chance of going back to Godhead as a direct disciple does, by Srila Prabhupada’s grace. So what is your objection?
Your objection must be that you are judging everyone to be unqualified to act as officiating acarya. When I was asked by your good self, Nimai Pandit prabhu and Krishna Balarama Swami to perform the initiation of Raja Vidya prabhu, and later of Ajata Satru prabhu, I was not thinking of myself as a ceremonial priest. If that’s all that was required, anyone of you could have conducted the initiation ceremony, chanted on the beads and chosen their spiritual names. Why didn’t you? Hansadutta’s letter posted on Pratyatosa prabhu’s website explains the difference very nicely. Within my heart, I was acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf by performing the initiation of these two devotees based on their sincerity in chanting the Holy Name and their eagerness to perform Sankirtana. I never say I am their guru, because I do not want there to be any confusion as to who will deliver them from the cycle of birth and death. Technically, I was giving them diksa, in accordance with Srila Prabhupada’s statement repeated above from the May 28th discussion. In the ritvik system, and I’m sure you will agree, there is no glorification of any guru other than His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. To avoid confusion in that regard, Srila Prabhupada introduced new terminology to designate the giver of diksa in his stead as the officiating acarya. One does not surrender to the officiator, nor does any worship stem from the act of officiating. But the qualification of one who thus officiates is that he is guru and able to instill faith in Krishna in those who gain his association.
I hope you realize I am not claiming to have any special qualification personally, but I am describing the criteria by which the leaders of our movement should be selecting officiating acaryas. Among the present leaders of ISKCON, I do not see anyone who is not implicated in deviation from Srila Prabhupada’s order. It was Srila Prabhupada’s order that his disciples act as officiating acaryas. That is the order to act as guru within ISKCON. There was no other order. It was by giving this order that Srila Prabhupada knew the unity of the movement would be preserved. If Srila Prabhupada chose not to explain future initiations by naming who was diksa guru, who was siksa guru and so on, so be it. Srila Prabhupada very rarely made such distinctions and almost never referred to anyone as “this diksa guru” or “that siksa guru.” As he said, these are not titles. Philosophically speaking, they are equal external manifestations of the Personality of Godhead. And, by the way, there is no scriptural statement that the diksa guru but not the siksa guru is worshiped as good as God.
In ISKCON we worship the founder acarya as our eternal spiritual master, and those disciples who display the characteristics of a regular guru can act as officiating acaryas when authorized by the GBC. That is good management. Everything in ISKCON management has been so messed up for so long that there should be a moratorium on initiations until such time as the protocols can be changed in favor of the actual ritvik system Srila Prabhupada wanted. But this is not going to happen anytime soon, and probably not in my lifetime. What we have to keep in mind is that Krishna sees the sincerity of those who are practicing devotional service and coming forward to be initiated. When candidates demonstrate sincerity of purpose, He accepts them into His family of devotees. In either case, in ritvik or ISKCON initiation, whoever conducts the initiation must be a strict follower. Otherwise, it will not be effective.
Finally, my approach to the issue of initiations is not to choose sides and say, “They are good” or “They are bad,” or “These are friends” and “These are enemies.” I am not trying to convince anyone here of a new point of view, but my hope is that these comments will also be posted elsewhere and archived here so that in the future, devotees who are doing research will have a chance to see that more than a single explanation of the ritvik initiation system has been expressed. Ultimately, I would like to see ISKCON embrace Srila Prabhupada’s terminology and pass a resolution that those giving diksa in ISKCON will henceforward be referred to as officiating acaryas. This would go hand in hand with a resolution that Srila Prabhupada is to be accepted by all generations of ISKCON devotees as their eternal spiritual master and that no one else should be worshiped as guru within the halls of ISKCON.
This will be my last post for now. We who are in the accounting profession are entering the tax season, and I do not expect to have time to follow this thread or respond to questions. I will, however, continue to take part in the Saturday night Harinam Sankirtana party at New York City’s Herald Square.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Your servant,
Locanananda dasa
Letter about Cyvana swami
Thank you prabhus,
As we have told you before, through Cyavana swami (Camp Garuda FL ) he said that after initiating for Srila Prabhupada for years on his behalf, he asked Srila Prabhupada, “What do we do when you are no longer physically with us”? Srila Prabhupada said: “same thing.” I told that to Rocana but he did not believe it. We see Cyavana swami weekly, the story does not change.
When Cyvana was told that some say, why didn’t Srila Prabhupada initiate on behalf of his guru, Cyavana swami became very strongly animated explaining that Srila Prabhupada is on the level of the six goswamis, (gopis), and so he fits the description of guru given in the samsara prayers we sing daily.
The samsara prayer describes the spiritual nature of a true guru. Anything less than that is not within the mood of the devotional service program given to us, bestowed upon us, by Srila Prabhupada. That is why over 50% of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples left iskcon when the cheater guru’s took over the Hare Krsna movement. The mood was no longer Srila Prabhupada’s.
The original infamous 11 bogus zonal acharya’s could easily have continued initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, and still they would have remained in control and still taken some adoration, but that was not enough for them. They were compelled to take on the post of full guru on the level of Srila Prabhupada and they demanded worship of themselves on the same level as was, and still does, Srila Prabhupada.
They even went so far as to demand the same exalted level of worship from their own God brothers and sisters, which was a brand new height of ignorance, greed, and perverted lust, thus assisting Kali in bringing down real religion. At that time these 11 became the promoters of anti religious principles by demanding worship of regular conditioned souls. They became friends of Kali instead of Krsna.
I was shocked to see on the credits of Sadaputa’s CD ROM explaining the Vedic nature of the universe, the credit for translating the sanskrit was given to one of the original infamous iskcon guru’s, Hrydayananda swami. And Srila Prabhupada is not even mentioned although it was he, Srila Prabhupada, who translated the 5th canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam!
Hrdayananda G, once said to the assembled devotee’s, “I’ll take what ever I can get,” and he sure did. I personally listened to him say on tape that Pradyumna prabhu is a demon for writing his famous letter to Satsvarupa g. At Saranagati BC during a meeting wherein 30 or so devotee’s all expressed concerns to HG, he flatly denied having said so.
These people are like well spoken actors on the level of ex-president Bush, who are expert in saying anything that suits their personal goals. Satsvarupa g?, he was found out to have had a girl friend for many years, but still he posted himself as a guru on Srila Prabhupada’s level and accepted supreme adoration as good as God. Others, of the original 11, they simply left iskcon, when they had accumulated enough money.
Still now they are wealthy from this misdeed.
One became murdered (stabbed to death and de capitated), by his own disciple. Another died violently by crashing into a tree. Many of us Srila Prabhupada disciples disliked these original 11 immensely for what they did after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance. Others work closely with them for material gain since they are still adored within iskcon. And then other devotee’s still look up to them, those that are left, as great devotee’s.
When intelligent persons study and examine what occured in iskcon after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance, they dismiss iskcon as being a corrupt religious institution. Now, many years later it is doing better, but still vestiges of the infamous past remain. ie worship of non fully self realized persons. by (****** dasa)
@Locanananda dasa: “Among the present leaders of ISKCON, I do not see anyone who is not implicated in deviation from Srila Prabhupada’s order.”
Thanks Locanananda pr you seem a thoughtful person and very concerned how to properly follow Srila Prabhupada concerning what is genuine guru-tattva.
There is a reproachful undertone in your writing of accusing the ritviks. FYI, it is not the ritviks who caused 41 ISKCON gurus to end up as failure. What set the ball rolling was NOT those kicked-out ISKCON devotees who try to reform from outside, it was and still is, pseudo diksha-gurus who fall down causing devastating result. This is not realy mentioned by your analysis.
Prabhupada came to the West in order to upgrade the neophyte Vaishnava situation of Christianity. Without Christianity’s prearrangement, Prabhupada would not have been able to tie in with higher bhagavata-dharma principles of bhakti-yoga. Prabhupada could not have preached and establish a global Sankirtan movement with staunch atheists, arrogant mayavadhis and uncivilized sense enjoyers.
Christianity prepared the ground of the Sankirtan movement so to speak. Now, with having after 35 years 41 fallen ISKCON gurus, there is no question of upgrading Christianity anymore. Things degraded below Christian level. Ok you live in New York and might not have seen the devastation of Prabhupada’s movement all over Europe due perpetual failure of their pseudo spiritual masters.
Now you say, ISKCON gurus are not fit, they are not qualified therefore all this happened, thousands of betrayed disciples. I can only say, no, those ISKCON gurus who fell down one by one, 41 all together, were exactly doing what you say. They did exactly what you say, we do it for Prabhupada, Prabhupada is the real guru, read Prabhupada’s books, do what Prabhupada says, we only initiate and are your gurus.
So what is your answer Locanananda pr, why are you qualified and Prithu, Suhotra, Harikesa, Prabhavishnu are not? Since you wrote so extensively and did not mention the main point it’s hard to believe there will be a satisfactory answer. Why people can be sure that you remain steadfast when being hit by the karmas of your disciples?
Besides, according self-effulgent acarya philosophy, your performance of turning this planet into Vaikuntha is still waiting. People want to see what you are doing actually, besides accounting profession…ys rrdd
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It would be kind of you if you read these questions and try to answer these. It would help me attain better understanding. :
1. Is it not possible in a principle that a mahabhagvat may appear in the future and become the next Diksa Guru(being personally ordered by krsna)?
2. Sridhara Maharaj claims to have found out Prabhupada to be a saktyavesa avatar. If we reject Sridhar Maharaj, how can we accept Prabhupada as saktyavesa avatar?
Your servant,
Santosh
(Teachings of Lord Kapila, Verse 41 Purport)
Similarly, the most amazing thing in ISKCON is that, “So many of my fellow initiating gurus have fallen down, but I’ll never fall down!”
Or, for some of them it’s, “So many of my fellow initiating gurus have gotten caught falling down, but I’ll never get caught!”
Instead, if they weren’t in so much maya, they would be saying, “So many of my fellow initiating gurus have gotten caught falling down. Let me leave this losers club before my reputation gets even worse than it already is!”
If you join an association of losers, you immediately get a bad reputation, and if the reputation of the losers’ club keeps getting worse and worse, the reputation of each and every member of that club gets worse and worse by association.
But these hopeless morons are thinking, “After everyone else has fallen down, then I’ll be number one!”
Santosh Wrote:
“Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It would be kind of you if you read these questions and try to answer these. It would help me attain better understanding. :
1. Is it not possible in a principle that a mahabhagvat may appear in the future and become the next Diksa Guru(being personally ordered by krsna)?
2. Sridhara Maharaj claims to have found out Prabhupada to be a saktyavesa avatar. If we reject Sridhar Maharaj, how can we accept Prabhupada as saktyavesa avatar?
Your servant,
Santosh”
Santosh Prabhu 1) FIRST try and follow the teachings of ONE Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada never mind if another is coming or not. If you can NOT EVEN follow the teaching of ONE Mahabhagavata what is your value?
2) Just because Sridhar Maharaja says Srila Prabhupada is Saktyavesa Avatar therefore we have to consider Sridhara maharaja as bonafide Guru? So what sort of twisted logic is that?
Just read this to clear up your misunderstanding regards CONDITIONED SOUL Sridhar Maharaja :
Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
Sridhara Maharaja saved Ramesvara when he was going down in June 1980, saved Jayatirtha when he was going down in 1979, saved Tamal and Hansadutta when they were going down December 1980 etc. In fact SM was still propping up Hansadutta in 1984 when I went to the Berkeley temple. OK, never mind Hansadutta was telling Sridara he was taking drugs like percodan, drinking alcohol and he was having illicit sex, Sridhara still thought Hansadutta needs to sit on a vyasana.
First of all, why is it that the number one person who created the illusion that a deviant is the acharya in 1936, and later created the illusion that more deviants are gurus after 1977, should be cited as an authority, at all? As for the 1980 position paper Sridhara co-penned with Satsvarupa “The Mahajanas Have Difficulties,” this is probably the most offensive document I have ever seen, anywhere. Worst document ever produced, ever, bar none. ys pd
Locanananda dasa says:
30. December 2012 at 8:08 pm
I’m somewhat surprised that you still choose to cling on to the May 28th 1977 conversation. You should by now know that Tamal Krsna and his merry men of Guru “killers” have done a chop job on that conversation. How can one be sure as to what was said and agreed upon or come to any kind of conclusion on a conversation that has been tempered and doctored. I suspect parts of questions and answers have been removed from this portion of the conversation and a patch work has been done. This is quite clear if one hears the tape conversation closely.
“Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the… ???????????
Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Ämära äjïäya guru haïä [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamal Krsna: No, he’s asking that these ritvik-äcäryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupada: They’re the ?????????? his disciple.
Tamal Krsna: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.???????? ( here if one listens carefully it sounds like Srila Prabhupada is saying “His granddisciple” not “He is granddisciple”..
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamal Krsna: That’s clear.
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
Prabhupada: When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes dis??????????? disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
You may want to reconsider your attachment to the May 28th 1977 conversation and what was said in it. At best to come to any conclusion from it will only be guesswork. It cannot be absolute.
Hare Krsna.
Right, a professional analysis of the May 28th tape was done by the Norman Perle lab of San Fernando Valley, in fact the GBC paid for the tape to be analysed by him to try to shut me down. Instead, the lab said the tape is “consistent with tampering.” Proven tampered evidence is Locanananda’s favorite material. Same thing happened with the hair sample. Hari Sauri sent us a hair sample to shut us down, except the sample showed “heavy metal” toxic poison condition. Sometimes guilty people want to admit they were wrong through the back door process. ys pd
@”Right, a professional analysis of the May 28th tape was done by the Norman Perle lab of San Fernando Valley”
Rank&file devotees still cling to what happened in the last weeks of Prabhupada’s physical presence. In other words, they simply stick to those recordings.
Agreed, meanwhile rank&file devotees don’t believe anymore that Prabhupada appointed those 11 to be the next acaryas.
“But”, they argue, “that it could come so far that those legendary eleven were taking their seat on the vyasasana, posing as full-fledged diksha gurus is self-explanatory, no further field investigation required.”
In sum, Prabhupada must have given 100% clear orders at the end. These tapes either disappeared or were tampered. Those who turned their attention to just those tampered tapes got confused and concluded that Prabhupada left things unclear.
Cheated disciples even went so far to lose their faith in Prabhupada and joined GM camps.
Only those who were fully conversant with all of Prabhupada’s & sastra’s teachings knew that there is something wrong. So to simply rely on questionable tape recordings won’t provide clear understanding.
Why Hansadutta never explained what was realy spoken at those last meetings? Prabhupada must have clearly told them that they should keep ISKCON together, run ritvik, stay on course and gave them a good kick in the pants.
Hansadutta said a lot, might be that he wasn’t there at the important moment?
My reply to very interesting following questions of Bhakta Santosh is given in CAP. letter appended below which reads ;
1. Is it not possible in a principle that a mahabhagvat may appear in the future and become the next Diksa Guru(being personally ordered by krsna)?
GIVING THE BENEFIT OF DOUBTS TO THE SIMILAR MINDED READERS THAT THERE MAY BE A POSSIBLITY FOR A MAHABHAGAVAT MAY APPEAR IN THE FUTURE AND BECOME THE NEXT DIKSHA GURU BEING PERSONALLY ORDER BY SHRI KRSNA.
i. THAT MAHABHAGAVAT MAY CONTINUE TO SERVE THE MISSION OF ISKCON UNDER THE DIRECT ORDER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO UNITE US ALL.
ii. THAT MAHABHAGAVAT MAY START HIS OR HER OWN ORGANIZATION AND BECOME SELF EFFULGENT LIKE THE PREVIOUS ACARAYAS THROUGH EXTRA ORDINARY WORK OF ACHIEVEMENT LIKE OUR JAGAT GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA.
NOTE ; Srila Prabhupada has written in the Purport in the cc the rest of the world has been given to Iskcon by the grace of Shri Krsna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore, the Option (i) may prevail in the future IF it is meant to happen as per the forecast of Srila Prabhupada in the cc purport. Please read it carefully below ;
PURPORT
Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu wanted to preach the saìkértana movement of love of Kåñëa throughout the entire world, and therefore during His presence He inspired the saìkértana movement. Specifically, He sent Rüpa Gosvämé and Sanätana Gosvämé to Våndävana and Nityänanda to Bengal and personally went to South India. In this way He kindly left the task of preaching His cult in the rest of the world to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the äcäryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world.
Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports to Çré Caitanya-caritämåta, Ädi-lilä, Seventh Chapter, describing Lord Caitanya in five features.” [adi 7.121] .
2. Sridhara Maharaj claims to have found out Prabhupada to be a saktyavesa avatar. If we reject Sridhar Maharaj, how can we accept Prabhupada as saktyavesa avatar?
SRIDHAR MAHARAJ CLAIMED ONLY AFTER THE REMARKABLE SUCCESS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA WHEN SRILA PRABHUPADA BECAME FAMOUS WORLD WIDE. BEFORE THAT HE NEVER MENTIONED ANY THING AS SUCH. YET SRIDHAR MAHARAJ DID SO MANY ACTIVITIES THAT WERE NOT ALLOWED IN THE SASTRAS SUCH AS GIVING AN OTHER INITIATIONS TO SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLE ACCEPTING THEM TO BE HIS GURU etc.
The Rest is the History which you should know Bhakta Santosh about Sridhar Maharaj.
Hope it answers your questions, Bhakta Santosh.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sulocana Das Prabhu said in his book that new devotees must associate with humble disciples of Prabhupada and study Prabhupada’s books and pray to Krsna to send us our Guru and not to be in a hurry for initiation. What does he mean by “initiation” here and why does he stress the importance of a living Guru instead of telling us to accept Prabhupada? Please tolerate me for my numerous queries and try to help me.
Your Servant,
Santosh
Dear mahesh raja prabhu,
Please accept my obeisances.You have given elaborate explanation that formal initiation is not required for going back to godhead. But I am confused by this particular purport from Caitanya Caritamrta. I beg you to clear my confusion.
The nature of my doubts is such that I am unable to have any peace without being freed of them and am not able to get enough faith in Prabhupada’s books as I sometimes see apparent contradictions.
Madhya 1.208
This is a verse from the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda. A MEMBER OF THE SAHAJIYA-SAMPRADAYA DOES NOT CHANGE HIS NAME; THEREFORE HE CANNOT BE ACCEPTED AS A GAUDIYA VAISNAVA. If a person does not change his name after initiation, it is to be understood that he will continue in his bodily conception of life.
Begging for a reply,
Your servant,
Santosh
When me and Sulochana talked to people in person, he was telling people to simply read the books of Srila Prabhupada. I do not recall him telling anyone to wait for the next acharya. This was not his main idea, and he never advised people to “wait to accept a living guru” when we spoke with them together. He advised people to just read the books.
Sulochana (and me) were also writing in 1984-5 here, when the whole ritvik idea was not yet even being discussed because the GBC had hid all the 1977 conversations. We did not get that evidence until much later.
We had only a few pieces of the puzzle at that time. I was also doing a lot of writing at the time and did not really emphasize the ritvik idea, because we were only uncovering some of the documentation at the time. We had the appointment tape around 1985, but Sulochana was convinced it was a splice job and he did not want to use that as his prime evidence.
Anyway, he made it clear that Sridhara and all the living gurus are bogus, and its best to read Srila Prabhupada’s books. Of course that is giving us the pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins, so he was giving people the path to pure initiation. You have to keep in mind the history here, we were missing many documents at the time. The ritvik idea was not being even discussed at all at the time by anyone, we were only slowly opening up these issues gradually. Had Suolochana seen the later documentation, he would have accepted it. ys pd
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu
Vapuvadi are MUDHAS they do not to accept “Vani is MORE important than vapu”. Sooooo IGNORANT!!!
Bg 7.15 P Knowledge of the Absolute
(1) The mudhas are those who are grossly foolish, like hard-working beasts of burden. They want to enjoy the fruits of their labor by themselves, and so do not want to part with them for the Supreme. The typical example of the beast of burden is the ass. This humble beast is made to work very hard by his master. The ass does not really know for whom he works so hard day and night. He remains satisfied by filling his stomach with a bundle of grass, sleeping for a while under fear of being beaten by his master, and satisfying his sex appetite at the risk of being repeatedly kicked by the opposite party. The ass sings poetry and philosophy sometimes, but this braying only disturbs others. This is the position of the foolish fruitive worker who does not know for whom he should work. He does not know that karma (action) is meant for yajna (sacrifice).
Most often, those who work very hard day and night to clear the burden of self-created duties say that they have no time to hear of the immortality of the living being. To such mudhas, material gains, which are destructible, are life’s all in all–despite the fact that the mudhas enjoy only a very small fraction of the fruit of labor. Sometimes they spend sleepless days and nights for fruitive gain, and although they may have ulcers or indigestion, they are satisfied with practically no food; they are simply absorbed in working hard day and night for the benefit of illusory masters. Ignorant of their real master, the foolish workers waste their valuable time serving mammon. Unfortunately, they never surrender to the supreme master of all masters, nor do they take time to hear of Him from the proper sources. The swine who eat the soil do not care to accept sweetmeats made of sugar and ghee. Similarly, the foolish worker will untiringly continue to hear of the sense-enjoyable tidings of the flickering mundane force that moves the material world.
HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO *****MUDHA VAPUVADIS***** TO ACCEPT SRILA PRABHUPADA AS DIKSA GURU? THEY ARE SOOOOOOO IGNORANT!!!!!
Dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.
1.I am still confused with the purport to madhya 1.208.
I beg you to solve my question.
2. And another thing—Prabhu,is ‘initiation’ same as ‘diksa’?In NOI Verse 5 it is said that a person who is initiated should be offered obeisances.But has that person recieved divya jnanam or has he gone through the formal initiation process?
Your servant,
Santosh
Santosh Prabhu
Hare Krsna!
Bit busy at the moment – will reply shortly.
Santosh Prabhu wrote:
Dear mahesh raja prabhu,
Please accept my obeisances.You have given elaborate explanation that formal initiation is not required for going back to godhead. But I am confused by this particular purport from Caitanya Caritamrta. I beg you to clear my confusion.
The nature of my doubts is such that I am unable to have any peace without being freed of them and am not able to get enough faith in Prabhupada’s books as I sometimes see apparent contradictions.
Madhya 1.208
“AFTER INITIATION, the disciple’s name must be changed to indicate that he is a servant of Lord Vishnu. The disciple should also immediately begin marking his body with tilaka (urdhva-pundra), especially his forehead. These are spiritual marks, symptoms of a perfect Vaishnava.”
This is a verse from the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda. A MEMBER OF THE SAHAJIYA-SAMPRADAYA DOES NOT CHANGE HIS NAME; THEREFORE HE CANNOT BE ACCEPTED AS A GAUDIYA VAISNAVA. If a person does not change his name after initiation, it is to be understood that he will continue in his bodily conception of life.
Begging for a reply,
Your servant,
Santosh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: Santosh Prabhu
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Please accept my humble obeisances
Hare Krsna!
I will try and give my understanding:
Srila Prabhupada states the WHOLE philosophy is SIMULATENOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENT. So when we see some APPARENT contradictions they are APPARENT to US because we are NOT elevated enough to understand at the time. Develop mode of Goodness (Sattva guna) and knowledge comes. If you are in TAMO GUNA (mode of Ignorance) you will NOT understand.
KB 82 Lord Krsna and Balarama Meet the Inhabitants of Vrndavana
This important instruction of Lord Krsna’s to the gopis can be utilized by all devotees engaged in Krsna consciousness. The whole philosophy is considered on the basis of inconceivable, simultaneous oneness and difference.
Santosh Prabhu IMPORTANT thing is to keep READING READING READING:
700623ND.LA Lectures
So these things, one after another, everything is very clearly explained in this Nectar of Devotion. So each chapter you should read very carefully. And if you cannot understand, read it repeatedly. Don’t all of a sudden, reading one or two page, immediately question, “Prabhupada, what is this? What is this? What is this?” Go on reading, and the answers will automatically come. So this book is, this valuable book is now published. You should take full advantage.
72-02-27. Letter: Mohanananda
Actually, if you simply serve in a SURRENDERED attitude, and go on chanting regularly, the answers to everything will come out automatically: “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” (X, 10).
74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
I am pleased to hear that you are chanting 16 rounds daily and reading my books regularly and following the four rules. In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained FULLY so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read AGAIN and AGAIN. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.
Now for your question – Why name change? because we identify with the material body as conditioned souls we have to come out this is WHY we have the Ritvik system – to arrange for FORMALITIES of Name giving of KRSNA DASA servant of Krsna etc. BUT Sacred thread does NOT mean it is gurantee for Back to Godhead. As I explained before so many “devotees” (bogus gurus) in ISKCON are doing nonsense even though they have sacred thread this means they have to got to go to Yamaraja for punishment. One who chants OFFENSELESS he is not subject to FORMALITIES of name change etc eg Sukadeva Gosvami.
So as you can see it is an application of SIMULTANEOUS ONESS AND DIFFERENCE. There is no contradicition. OFFENSELESS CHANTING is VERY POWERFUL.
SB 3.27.9 P Understanding Material Nature
The conditioned souls are eager to identify with the body and consider that the body is “myself” and that anything in relationship with the body or possessions of the body is “mine.” In Sanskrit this is called aham-mamata, and it is the root cause of all conditional life. A person should see things as the combination of matter and spirit. He should distinguish between the nature of matter and the nature of spirit, and his real identification should be with spirit, not with matter. By this knowledge, one should avoid the false, bodily concept of life.
N98:TQE 6 Discussions on Western Philosophy and Science books
Srila Prabhupada: As long as we do not identify ourselves as eternal servants of Krsna, we will be subject to various false identifications.
CHANTING HARE KRSNA MANTRA OFFENSELESSLY:
70-11-14. Letter: Acyutananda
During my Guru Maharaja’s time, even a person was coming from a brahmana family, he was initiated according to the pancaratrika system taking him to be a sudra. So the birthright brahmanism is not applicable at the present moment. The sacred thread inaugurated by my Guru Maharaja according to pancaratrika system and Hari-bhakti-vilasa by Srila Sanatana Goswami must continue. It does not matter whether the priestly class accepts it or not. When my Guru Maharaja Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada introduced this system, it was protested even by His inner circle of Godbrothers or friends. Of course He had actually no Godbrothers, but there were many disciples of Bhaktivinode Thakura who were considered as Godbrothers who protested against this action of my Guru Maharaja, but He didn’t care for it.
ACTUALLY ONE WHO TAKES TO CHANTING HARE KRSNA MANTRA OFFENSELESSLY IMMEDIATELY BECOMES SITUATED TRANSCENDENTALLY AND THEREFORE HE HAS NO NEED OF BEING INITIATED WITH SACRED THREAD, BUT GURU MAHARAJA INTRODUCED THIS SACRED THREAD BECAUSE A VAISNAVA WAS BEING MISTAKEN AS BELONGING TO THE MATERIAL CASTE. To accept a Vaisnava in material caste system is hellish consideration (naraki buddhi). Therefore, to save the general populace from being offender to a Vaisnava, He persistently introduced this sacred thread ceremony and we must follow His footsteps.
OFFENSELESS CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE INITIATION PROCESS:
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
THE OFFENSELESS CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE INITIATION PROCESS. ALTHOUGH INITIATION MAY DEPEND ON PURASCARYA OR PURASCARANA, THE ACTUAL CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME DOES NOT DEPEND ON PURASCARYA-VIDHI, OR THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. IF ONE CHANTS THE HOLY NAME ONCE WITHOUT COMMITTING AN OFFENSE, HE ATTAINS ALL SUCCESS.
Santosh says:
4. January 2013 at 8:31 am
Santosh Prabhu wrote:
Dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.
2. And another thing—Prabhu,is ‘initiation’ same as ‘diksa’?In NOI Verse 5 it is said that a person who is initiated should be offered obeisances.But has that person recieved divya jnanam or has he gone through the formal initiation process?
Your servant,
Santosh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh:
Hare Krsna! Santosh Prabhu
I have indicated below ALL in BOLD so you can see that Madhyama is the one who has recieved DIVYA JNANAM So offered obeisances applies to Madhayma adhikari.
NoI 5
One should mentally honor the devotee who chants the holy name of Lord Krsna, ONE SHOULD OFFER HUMBLE OBEISANCES TO THE DEVOTEE WHO HAS UNDERGONE SPIRITUAL INITIATION [DIKSA] AND IS ENGAGED IN WORSHIPING THE DEITY, and one should associate with and faithfully serve that Pure devotee who is advanced in undeviated devotional service and whose heart is completely devoid of the propensity to criticize others.
PURPORT
In order to intelligently apply the sixfold loving reciprocations mentioned in the previous verse, one must select proper persons with careful discrimination. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore advises that we should meet with the Vaisnavas in an appropriate way, according to their particular status. In this verse he tells us how to deal with three types of devotees–the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The kanistha-adhikari is a neophyte who has received the hari-nama initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Krsna. ONE SHOULD RESPECT SUCH A PERSON WITHIN HIS MIND AS A KANISTHA-VAISNAVA. A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service. The uttama-adhikari, or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krsna consciousness. According to Srila Rupa Gosvami, the association and service of such a maha-bhagavata, or perfect Vaisnava, are most desirable.
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received SPIRITUAL initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the TRANSCENDENTAL loving service of the Lord.
.Note:…”he is situated on the TRANSCENDENTAL platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. ”
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
TRANSLATION
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
TEXT 193
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
TRANSLATION
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
TEXT 194
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
TRANSLATION
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of IMMORTALITY, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of LOVING MELLOWS with Me.’
PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
The real definition of diksha is, the process of getting pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins (di and khsha).
However, in the 1970s many of the people who got the formal initiation (diksha) ceremony and spiritual name from Srila Prabhupada, quite evidently did not really or fully accept the actual process of absorbing the divyam jnanam HDG was giving, so they fell from the path. Whereas we now have many new people who often never got any formal diksha ceremonials, but they are accepting the diksha process of getting the divyam jnanam from the pure devotee and his vani. Therefore the initiation process is primarily a matter of the aspirant accepting the guru and his orders (the guru vani process). The diksha ceremony is supposed to support and augment that relationship, but its not a guarantee of that relationship holding over time.
In short, the ceremonials are meant to aid that relationship, just like a marriage ceremony. The marriage ceremony might help the couple stay loyal to one another, …. but there is no guarantee that the ceremony will make the parties involved loyal. Its a formal declaration of loyalty, but the persons involved still have to endeavor to keep the bond together. And in our case: the disciple has to keep his end of the bargain. Sometimes we see that a marriage ends in divorce even a few weeks after the marriage ceremonials. So the ceremony alone, while it is an aid to assist the relationship, it is by no means a guarantee of the relationship.
The same thing has happened in the Gaudiya Matha, many formal initiates never really understood and accepted the process of divyam jnanam and they began concocting things, thinking they had a superior ideas to the acharya. They were not loyal to their guru, so their marriage to their guru was nullified by deviation. They had a divorce.
Its not just the ceremony where one gets a spiritual name, rather the ceremony is meant to give person a formal acceptance into the process of diksha, of accepting the guru’s vani, just like marriage is a formal acceptance of the holy bond or marriage. Hopefully the aspirant will (again hopefully) take to the path of accepting the orders of the guru (the diksha path) seriously. The idea of the marriage ceremony is to convince the parties to remain faithful for their whole lives, that is the actual intent of the ceremony.
So Srila Prabhupada gave people spiritual names and that ceremonial “marriage to the guru” process should have continued via the ritvik priests. The true process of diksha is, that one is loyal to the guru and thereby, the guru is loyal to the aspirant. This is also true of our entire relationship with Krishna, if we take Krishna seriously, then He will take us seriously. He reciprocates according to the desires of the aspirant.
So the process of getting the divyam jnanam is mainly one of the heart of the aspirant. If one is serious, then the guru and Krishna will reciprocate accordingly. Therefore we have the phenomena of many of our new people understanding the divyam jnanam way better than those who got the official ceremony 40 years ago. These new people have more sincere hearts, so Krishna is giving them the inspiration to get the proper divyam jnanam. Whereas, people who have closed their hearts due to mundane desires overtaking the spiritual desires, the cannot penetrate into the divyam jnanam. Its actually not that hard to understand — if we compare this to a marriage ceremony, the marriage may stay together, and hopefully it will, and the bond may increase over time, but beware, the bond may be dropped and end up in divorce.
Hope this helps, ys pd
Note: We Prabhupadanugas accept Srila Prabhupada as OUR Diksa Guru FOR AS LONG AS ISKCON EXISTS. We accept the Ritvik System as Ordered by Srila Prabhupada. We accept Srila Prabhupada’s Will that the Directors appointed will be INITIATED disciples of Srila Prabhupada for the future. That is OUR STANDARD UNDERSTANDING. Others who are against this are AVOIDED by us:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves. There are innumerable books, such as the Puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and Upanisads, which contain countless subjects for discussion among two devotees or more. FRIENDSHIP SHOULD BE CEMENTED BETWEEN PERSONS WITH MUTUAL INTERESTS AND UNDERSTANDING. SUCH PERSONS ARE SAID TO BE SVA JATI, “OF THE SAME CASTE.” THE DEVOTEE SHOULD AVOID A PERSON WHOSE CHARACTER IS NOT FIXED IN THE STANDARD UNDERSTANDING; EVEN THOUGH HE MAY BE A VAISNAVA, OR A DEVOTEE OF KRSNA, IF HIS CHARACTER IS NOT CORRECTLY REPRESENTATIVE, THEN HE SHOULD BE AVOIDED. One should steadily control the senses and the mind and strictly follow the rules and regulations, and he should make friendship with persons of the same standard.
There is a conversation in which Srila Prabhupada explains that for most all of us, that is most all aspiring devotees, that the BONA FIDE formal Diksa initiation and taking vows are necessary to purify us of offenses in chanting.
It is not that we cannot chant the maha mantra without being initiated formally. It is not that we can’t make SOME advancement and undergo SOME purification before going through a bonafide initiation process.
But he said what he said. I am having a hard time locating that conversation in my files where he states this plainly, but there are many instances where he implies and alludes that formal initiation into his society is a necessary factor in our purification so that our chanting can be done without offense.
Here are a couple of them.
Lecture at Initiation Fire Sacrifice — Los Angeles, July 16, 1969 : 690716IN.LA :
So when you enter into the Krishna science you get so much volumes of transcendental knowledge, and we are trying to present before you this knowledge in so many ways, by cleansing your heart from this material contamination. And this initiation is the beginning of cleaning the contamination. Therefore this mantra suggests, apavitrah pavitraḥ va: either you be contaminated or not contaminated. When one is not contaminated, he’s relishing this Hare Krishna mantra by associating with Krishna. Just like Rupa Gosvami, he’s also chanting. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also chanting, but His chanting and my chanting, there is little difference.
That chanting is on the transcendental platform, actually relishing with Krishna. My chanting… In the beginning there are three stages: offensive stages, liberated stage, and relishing stage. So you will be initiated for chanting Hare Krishna, there will be so many offenses. So we have to offend…, we have to defend ourself from the offenses.
There are ten kinds of offenses. You’ll get the list. So we shall try to avoid. Then our chanting will be purified. And when the chanting is purified, then immediately you are liberated. And after liberation? Brahma-bhutah prasannatma: [Bg. 18.54] your life of devotional service actually begins. Then you relish reciprocation of love with Krishna.
So if we constantly chant Hare Krishna mantra, then we are not in this material world. But if we purposely again come to the material world… That independence we have got. But if we chant Hare Krishna mantra according to the instructions… Sa?khya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhi?. We have to practice. Because Gosvamis, they kept a number, a numerical strength. Haridasa Thakura kept the biggest. Others, they also kept, but not so big. But according… Because, just like Rupa Gosvami, he had to write so many books, so he was not keeping such a big number as three lakhs.
But there was some numerical… Similarly, we must have some numerical strength. And we have minimized. I know that you are coming from a different source, so according to time, according to circumstances… Even there, there is no limit. You can chant more than sixteen-sixteen hundred times.
There is no… But practically we see that even chanting sixteen rounds becomes difficult. So don’t try to imitate, but do it properly, what is advised by your spiritual master, without any offense. That mantra will save you from the dangers of maya. That’s a fact….(no citation, sorry)
Another point is here. Athopasprisya salilam: this mantra weapon is so strong that it can be manufactured simply by touching water with mantra. Just like we take mantra, apavitra? pavitro va sarvavastha? gato ‘pi va yah smaret punarikaksah sa bahyantarah. The same process. Do not think that it is some ritualistic external. No. It has got meaning.
If you can chant the mantra properly, if you follow the rules and… You must be expert in chanting mantra. Hare Krishna mantra we are chanting, and Haridasa Thakura is also chanting. So Haridasa Thakura, how advanced he was just imagine. He was a young man, and a very nice, beautiful prostitute came there at dead of night, wanted to enjoy his company, and he said simply, “Very good idea.
Please sit down. Let me finish my Hare Krishna mantra.” Is it possible for ordinary man? No. It is not possible. That means he was expert, he was advanced. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised, iha haite sarva-siddhi haibe tomara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, “Simply by chanting you’ll get all success of life.” Sarva-siddhi. It is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s blessing. Iha haite sarva-siddhi haibe tomara. By simply chanting one gets the highest perfection.
That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s blessing and gift. So we should be very careful and follow the regulative principles. Then automatically you’ll be perfect. There is no doubt about it. Mantra… Just like sometimes the snake-charming mantra can be purchased in the market.
But if you do not make yourself perfect about chanting the mantra, it will not be effective….The mantra has got so much power. But not that you purchase the mantra and chant. That will not. You have to make it perfect. There is process, how to become perfect in chanting the mantra. Similarly… It is an ordinary, material mantra. This spiritual mantra… I have already explained.
This Hare Krishna mantra is spiritual mantra. It is not material. Therefore I’ve already explained, golokera prema-dhana hari-nama-sankirtana. It is not ordinary sound vibration, material sound vibration, radio. No. Spiritual. Golokera prema-dhana. So if we actually chant this Hare Krishna mantra properly, without any offense, then once chanting is sufficient to make you free from the reaction of all sinful life. Once chanted.
There is no question of chanting thousand times. It is said, eka hari-name jato papa hare, papi haya tato papa karibare nare. Once chanting of Hare Krishna mantra can vanquish so many, so much accumulated reaction of sinful life that a first-class papi or a very expert papi, he cannot commit so many papa. You see. It is so powerful.
So if we chant it properly, this chanting, dasa-vidha, ten offenses, without offenses… Nama-aparadha-sunyam. Without any nama-aparadha, if we chant according to the principle, then the mantra will act. Mantra will act in so nicely that the mantra will keep you always in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
That is the power of mantra. Don’t think it is a hobby or it is something superfluous. No. Actually, this mantra, Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Himself.
One point that come to mind about taking on sins is that Mahabhagavat is like the Sun. Sun can absorb urine. BUT if an ordinary man becomes spiritual master then he HAS to SUFFER very HEAVILY they can NOT absorb urine/sins. Look at those people who are bogus gurus in ISKCON they have Sooooo many BIG medical problems. Then when they die THAT also is in a place like LAVATORY.
As I mentioned earlier Suhotra swami died in TOILET in Mayapura. I hear Gopi Prahanadhana (the SASTRIC ADVISORY COMITTEE guy) he also died in Vrindavan TOILET–initially they could not locate where he was. Narayana Maharaja – they do not say WHERE he died BUT if he had died chanting Hare Krsna you can be SURE they would have made a FILM on this. So this is SUSPECT. Tamal Krsna first reports that came out was that he was in COMA after accident . What we know is in ISKCON they HIDE all this type of information:
COMA IS NOT GOOD. THAT IS THE SIGN OF SINFUL LIFE. HE MUST BE CONSCIOUS. THAT IS GOOD.
SB 4.28.12 P Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life
There are many parts of the body–the senses, the limbs, the skin, the muscles, blood, marrow, etc.–and all these are considered here figuratively as sons, grandsons, citizens and dependents. WHEN THE BODY IS ATTACKED BY THE VISNU-JVARA, THE FIERY CONDITION BECOMES SO ACUTE THAT SOMETIMES ONE REMAINS IN A COMA. THIS MEANS THAT THE BODY IS IN SUCH SEVERE PAIN THAT ONE BECOMES UNCONSCIOUS AND CANNOT FEEL THE MISERIES TAKING PLACE WITHIN THE BODY. INDEED, THE LIVING ENTITY BECOMES SO HELPLESS AT THE TIME OF DEATH THAT, ALTHOUGH UNWILLING, HE IS FORCED TO GIVE UP THE BODY AND ENTER ANOTHER.
SB 4.29.71 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
Foolish people deny the existence of the soul, but it is a fact that when we sleep we forget the identity of the material body and when we awake we forget the identity of the subtle body. In other words, while sleeping we forget the activities of the gross body, and when active in the gross body we forget the activities of sleeping. Actually both states–sleeping and waking–are creations of the illusory energy. The living entity actually has no connection with either the activities of sleep or the activities of the so-called wakened state. When a person is in deep sleep or when he has fainted, he forgets his gross body. Similarly, under chloroform or some other anesthetic, the living entity forgets his gross body and does not feel pain or pleasure during a surgical operation. Similarly, when a man is suddenly shocked by some great loss, he forgets his identification with the gross body. AT THE TIME OF DEATH, WHEN THE TEMPERATURE OF THE BODY RISES TO 107 DEGREES, THE LIVING ENTITY FALLS INTO A COMA AND IS UNABLE TO IDENTIFY HIS GROSS BODY. IN SUCH CASES, THE LIFE AIR THAT MOVES WITHIN THE BODY IS CHOKED UP, AND THE LIVING ENTITY FORGETS HIS IDENTIFICATION WITH THE GROSS BODY.
SB 4.29.76-77 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
A LIVING ENTITY TOO MUCH ABSORBED IN MATERIAL ACTIVITY BECOMES VERY MUCH ATTRACTED TO THE MATERIAL BODY. EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH, HE THINKS OF HIS PRESENT BODY AND THE RELATIVES CONNECTED TO IT. THUS HE REMAINS FULLY ABSORBED IN THE BODILY CONCEPTION OF LIFE, SO MUCH SO THAT EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH HE ABHORS LEAVING HIS PRESENT BODY. SOMETIMES IT IS FOUND THAT A PERSON ON THE VERGE OF DEATH REMAINS IN A COMA FOR MANY DAYS BEFORE GIVING UP THE BODY. This is common among so-called leaders and politicians who think that without their presence the entire country and all society will be in chaos. This is called maya. Political leaders do not like to leave their political posts, and they either have to be shot by an enemy or obliged to leave by the arrival of death. By superior arrangement a living entity is offered another body, but because of his attraction to the present body, he does not like to transfer himself to another body. Thus he is forced to accept another body by the laws of nature.
Material nature is very strong, and the material modes force one to accept another body. This force is visible when the living entity transmigrates from a superior body to an inferior one. ONE WHO ACTS LIKE A DOG OR HOG IN THE PRESENT BODY WILL CERTAINLY BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG IN THE NEXT LIFE. A PERSON MAY BE ENJOYING THE BODY OF A PRIME MINISTER OR A PRESIDENT, BUT WHEN HE UNDERSTANDS THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG, HE CHOOSES NOT TO LEAVE THE PRESENT BODY. THEREFORE HE LIES IN A COMA MANY DAYS BEFORE DEATH. This has been experienced by many politicians at the time of death. The conclusion is that the next body is already determined by superior control. The living entity immediately gives up the present body and enters another. Sometimes in the present body the living entity feels that many of his desires and imaginations are not fulfilled. Those who are overly attracted to their life situation are forced to remain in a ghostly body and are not allowed to accept another gross body. Even in the body of a ghost, they create disturbances for neighbors and relatives. The mind is the prime cause of such a situation. According to one’s mind, different types of bodies are generated, and one is forced to accept them.
TLK Vs 41 Taking Shelter of Krsna, the Supreme Controller
Presently we are so dull and foolish that we do not know what is bhayam and tivram. The word tivram means “very terrible,” and bhayam means “very fearsome.” We are entangled by a very terrible fear, but we have become so dull due to the spell of maya that we do not care. AT THE TIME OF DEATH THERE ARE MANY TROUBLES, AND WE BECOME VERY FEARFUL. SOMETIMES, WHEN A PERSON IS DYING, HE FALLS INTO A COMA AND LIES UNCONSCIOUS. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF FEARFUL TEST THIS PERSON IS UNDERGOING. HE MAY BE DREAMING SO MANY THINGS, OR HE MAY BE CRYING. HE CANNOT EXPRESS WHAT IS GOING ON. THOSE WHO ARE VERY SINFUL ESPECIALLY DIE IN THAT WAY. After death, one has to enter into the womb of another mother. That is also a very fearful stage. One becomes packed in a bag, and this bag is filled with stool and urine, and one has to remain packed in this airtight bag for nine months.
740621BG.GER Lectures
So nobody wants to leave this body, but the distress is so strong that one is forced to leave this body. That is called death. In the Bhagavad-gita you will find that mrtyuh sarva-haras ca aham. Krsna says that “I am death.” And what is the meaning of death? Death means “I take everything from him. Finished. I take his body, I take his association, I take his country, I take his society, I take his bank balance, and everything finished.” Sarva-harah. Sarva means everything. Everyone is trying to accumulated big bank balance and big house, big family, big motorcar… But with the death, everything is finished. So that is great distress. SOMETIMES ONE CRIES. YOU WILL FIND AT THE TIME OF DEATH, IN COMA, HIS EYE DROPS ARE COMING OUT. HE IS THINKING, “I MADE SO MANY THINGS SO NICELY TO LIVE COMFORTABLY, AND NOW I AM LOSING EVERYTHING.” GREAT DISTRESS.
751031BG.NAI Lectures
Indian man (2): But what if they die in coma? What if they die in deep unconsciousness?
Prabhupada: That is not very good. COMA IS NOT GOOD. THAT IS THE SIGN OF SINFUL LIFE. HE MUST BE CONSCIOUS. THAT IS GOOD.
760915SB.VRN Lectures
So this is the movement how to make an adhira dhira. Everyone is adhira. Who is not afraid of death? Who is not afraid of…? Of course, they are too much agnostic, they forget. But there is suffering. We can see how one suffering at the time of death. There are some men dying… NOWADAYS IT HAS BECOME A VERY COMMON… COMA. ONE IS LYING IN THE BED FOR WEEKS, TWO WEEKS, CRYING. THE LIFE IS NOT GOING. THOSE WHO ARE VERY, VERY SINFUL. SO THERE IS GREAT PAIN AT THE TIME OF DEATH.
741209SB.BOM Lectures
So bhayam tivram. We have become so much dull or foolish that we do not know what is bhayam tivram. Tivram means very fierce, and bhayam, fierce fearfulness, very strong. And we are entangled in this very strong fearfulness, but we have become so dull by the spell of maya that we don’t care for it. Just imagine. At the time of death there are so many troubles, very fierceful. SOMETIMES A PERSON IS DYING, HE IS ATTACKED WITH COMA, AND HE IS LYING UNCONSCIOUS. BIG, BIG POLITICIANS, “MR. SUCH AND SUCH,” PRIME MINISTER, AND THIS AND THAT, BUT HE IS LYING UNCONSCIOUS IN COMA FOR SEVEN DAYS. AND WE DO NOT KNOW, BUT HE IS GOING VERY FIERCEFUL TEST. HE IS DREAMING SO MANY THINGS THAT SOMETIMES HE IS CRYING. HE CANNOT EXPRESS. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO ARE VERY SINFUL, THEY DIE IN THAT WAY. So this is not finished. Then, after death, you have to enter in the womb of the mother. That is another fierceful stage. You become packed up in a bag, and the bag is filled up or surrounded by stool, urine, worms. And you have to remain there, airtight packed, for ten months.
761023SB.VRN Lectures
Rebirth, that is very painful. But because we are mudhas, we have forgotten what is the painful condition is rebirth. We do not remember it. We do not remember. We had to pass through. We can simply imagine how it is painful to remain in the womb of the mother, packed up in an airtight bag and hands and legs you cannot move even. So this is the tribulations of taking birth. And similarly the tribulations of death. SOMETIMES ONE REMAINS IN COMA FOR MONTHS AND HE SUFFERS SO MUCH. SOMETIMES HE CRIES. ACTUALLY TEARS COME OUT. WE CANNOT SEE, BUT WITHIN THE BODY OF THE DYING MAN IS SO MUCH PAINFUL. This is called janma-mrtyu. And old man’s, there are difficulties.
710218LE.GOR Lectures
And similarly, miserable condition of death. WHEN ONE IS LYING IN COMA, SO MANY SUFFERINGS IS GOING ON, SO MANY DREAMING, THE YAMADUTA IS COMING. SOMETIMES THE MAN ON THE DEATHBED CRIES, HE’S SO MUCH SUFFERING. But there is no remedy. Everyone is helpless. So that is the miserable condition of death
SCHOP.HAY Arthur Schopenhauer Philosophy
Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante: we get next life according to the desire at the point of death. SO GENERALLY, WHEN DEATH TAKES PLACE, ONE SOMETIMES REMAINS IN COMA, ALL THE BODILY FUNCTIONS BECOMES DEFUNCT, HE DREAMS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND SO ON, SO ON. SO HE CANNOT DREAM OR THINK INDEPENDENTLY.
740407mw.bom Conversations
Prabhupada: This example is given. Suppose we are walking. This step, when I assure that “This is all right, it is not, it will not go down,” then I take up this. Then again this. This example is given. Similarly, change of body like that. As soon as it is settled up what kind of body he is going to accept or which is being offered to him, daiva-netrena, by higher authority, then this man leaves this body and again enters in the womb of the body which he is destined to get. This is the process of death.
Yadubara: Is that immediate, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Immediate. Just like immediate I am walking. When it is fixed up, then I take up. Then when it is fixed up, then I take up, like this. Immediately.
Yasomatinandana: What about hell? How does the jiva soul go to hell?
Prabhupada: Yes. They go. Those who are going to HELL, THAT IS FIXED UP VERY QUICKLY. IT DOESN’T TAKE MUCH TIME. HELL MEANS HE IS GETTING THE NEXT BODY, HELLISH BODY. THAT’S ALL. SUPPOSE HE IS GOING TO GET THE HELLISH BODY TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL, SO IN THAT WAY HE ENTERS THE WORM, MOTHER WORM, TO GET THE BODY AND ENJOY THE HELL. THAT’S ALL.
Satsvarupa: Don’t they sometimes have to go to Yamaraja first for practice?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is daiva-netrena. THESE THINGS ARE FINISHED VERY QUICKLY. AND IF IT TAKES LITTLE TIME, THEN THIS MAN WHO IS DYING, HE REMAINS IN COMA AND DOES NOT DIE. BECAUSE THE JUDGEMENT IS GOING ON, THE DECISION WAITING, COMA. YOU HAVE SEEN SOMETIMES A MAN IS IN COMA FOR SEVEN DAYS, EIGHT DAYS? YES. THAT MEANS HIS JUDGEMENT IS GOING ON, THAT… SUCH KIND OF DEATH MEANS VERY SINFUL DEATH. NOT YET SETTLED UP, VERY COMPLICATED CASE. THEREFORE IT TAKES TIME.
Yadubara: What about persons who die in their sleep? Is that a sinful death?
Prabhupada: Yes. Dream or awakened, everything is dream, gross dream and subtle dream. That’s all. This is also dream. What do you mean by dream? Dream means existent for a little period. That’s all. So night dream is for two hours and this dream is for twenty-four hours.
Yasomatinandana: So in other words when it says that one goes to hell, any lower species is also like hell. If one is going to assume a dog’s body, then does he go to hell before he assumes a dog’s body?
Prabhupada: THERE IS STATEMENT LIKE THAT, THAT ONE IS PUT INTO THE HELLISH CONDITION FOR PRACTICING LITTLE, AND THEN HE IS PUT INTO THE WOMB OF SUCH MOTHER.
Yasomatinandana: Is that a long duration of practice or just…, very short?
Prabhupada: No, very short. SHORT MEAN THEIR SHORT. IT MAY TAKE LITTLE MORE TIME.
Giriraja: Now they have machines that when the person is in coma, the machines artificially keep the heart beating and the other processes…
Prabhupada: Then heart beating will go on, either you apply machine or no machine. Heart beating. But when the heart stops, no machine can revive it. So what is the use of machine? But by nature’s way when the heart beating will stop, no machine can help. That is not possible.
750302r2.atl Conversations
Prabhupada: WE CAN SEE WHEN A MAN IS IN COMA, HE CRIES, HE SUFFERS. BEFORE DEATH WHEN A MAN IS IN COMA SOMETIMES TEARS COME. Now why he says there is nothing? Imperfect knowledge, that’s all. Misguiding people.
760726rc.lon Conversations
George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: She chanted.
George Harrison: I did.
Prabhupada: Oh, very nice, so she could hear?
George Harrison: I don’t know, I don’t know, she was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of.
Prabhupada: When it happened?
George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know.
Prabhupada: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Krsna, she’ll get the benefit. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, sravanam kirtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. So you are reading Krsna repeatedly? Krsna book you are reading repeatedly?
SB 4.29.76-77 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
A living entity too much absorbed in material activity becomes very much attracted to the material body. EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH, HE THINKS OF HIS PRESENT BODY AND THE RELATIVES CONNECTED TO IT. THUS HE REMAINS FULLY ABSORBED IN THE BODILY CONCEPTION OF LIFE, SO MUCH SO THAT EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH HE ABHORS LEAVING HIS PRESENT BODY. SOMETIMES IT IS FOUND THAT A PERSON ON THE VERGE OF DEATH REMAINS IN A COMA FOR MANY DAYS BEFORE GIVING UP THE BODY. This is common among so-called leaders and politicians who think that without their presence the entire country and all society will be in chaos. This is called maya. Political leaders do not like to leave their political posts, and they either have to be shot by an enemy or obliged to leave by the arrival of death. By superior arrangement a living entity is offered another body, but because of his attraction to the present body, he does not like to transfer himself to another body. Thus he is forced to accept another body by the laws of nature.
prakrteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara-vimudhatma
kartaham iti manyate
“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27)
Material nature is very strong, and the material modes force one to accept another body. This force is visible when the living entity transmigrates from a superior body to an inferior one. One who acts like a dog or hog in the present body will certainly be forced to accept the body of a dog or hog in the next life. A PERSON MAY BE ENJOYING THE BODY OF A PRIME MINISTER OR A PRESIDENT, BUT WHEN HE UNDERSTANDS THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG, HE CHOOSES NOT TO LEAVE THE PRESENT BODY. THEREFORE HE LIES IN A COMA MANY DAYS BEFORE DEATH. This has been experienced by many politicians at the time of death. The conclusion is that the next body is already determined by superior control. The living entity immediately gives up the present body and enters another. Sometimes in the present body the living entity feels that many of his desires and imaginations are not fulfilled. Those who are overly attracted to their life situation are forced to remain in a ghostly body and are not allowed to accept another gross body. Even in the body of a ghost, they create disturbances for neighbors and relatives. The mind is the prime cause of such a situation. According to one’s mind, different types of bodies are generated, and one is forced to accept them. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (8.6):
yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-bhavitah
“Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.” Within one’s body and mind, one can think as either a dog or a god, and the next life is offered to him accordingly. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita (13.22):
purusah prakrti-stho hi
bhunkte prakrtijan gunan
karanam guna-sango ‘sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
“The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species.” The living entity may transmigrate to either a superior or inferior body according to his association with the modes of material nature. If he associates with the mode of ignorance, he gets the body of an animal or an inferior man, but if he associates with the mode of goodness or passion, he gets a body accordingly. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.18):
urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
madhye tisthanti rajasah
jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
adho gacchanti tamasah
“Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.”
The root cause of one’s association is the mind. This great Krsna consciousness movement is the greatest boon to human society because it is teaching everyone to think always of Krsna by executing devotional service. In this way, at the end of life, one may be transferred to the association of Krsna. This is technically called nitya-lila-pravista, entering into the planet Goloka Vrndavana. Bhagavad-gita (18.55) explains:
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
“One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.” After the mind is completely absorbed in Krsna consciousness, one can enter the planet known as Goloka Vrndavana. To enter the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one has to understand Krsna. The process of understanding Krsna is devotional service.
After understanding Krsna as He is, one can become eligible to enter Krsnaloka and associate with Him. The mind is the cause of such an exalted position. The mind can also get one a body like those of dogs and hogs. To absorb the mind always in Krsna consciousness is therefore the greatest perfection of human life.
The whole idea was to make ISKCON a sort of hospital for the conditioned souls to get cured of the disease of maya. However, if the hospital becomes the source of the disease of maya, and the hospital is giving everyone who comes there deadly strains of cholera — even if they just came in there with a sprained ankle, and the hospital thus contains more deadly strains of germs and diseases of maya than we find outside the hospital, then we better get out of there or get infected worse than if we are outside, and maybe die in the process if we cannot escape fast enough.
Worship of deviants and fools as messiahs and / or the Lord’s successor acharyas is not found outside the hijacked hospital because the mass of population knows that is bogus. So even the outsiders have a higher standard that the corrupted ISKCON does.
So that means the whole process that Srila Prabhupada wanted and intended, which included formal initiations, brahmana initiations for the poojaris and so on, has been temporarily corrupted and halted in many respects.
So in the meantime, does that mean we cannot approach HDG and Krishna without the proper hospital system? No, it does not, it means we have to by-pass that corrupted situation, avoid getting deadly sick in the bogus hijacked hospital, and fall back to simply reading his books and preaching on his behalf instead of preaching as his bogus acharya successors.
That is a bona fide “fall back position” since Srila Prabhupada said a number of times, the temples may fail, but my books will remain. So the real source of hospital cure now is to take the medicine of the vani, and that can and will still cure us. And it will, guaranteed, if we have faith in that system.
Of course there are also quotes saying that formal initiation is not required:
Madhya 15.110 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“‘The holy name of Lord Krsna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krsna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krsna. Simply by touching the holy name with one’s tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.’” ys pd
SUGGESTIONS: when trying to UNDERSTAND APPARANT contradiction in Srila Prabhupada’s books FIRST establish if:
1) WHAT YUGA or Millenium that took place and compare
2) CHECK if it applicable to SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE. For instance GURU can be applied as Mahabhagavata in some cases BUT Guru can also apply to SIKSA guru other instances so check WHICH application is used. The word INITIATION can be applied to FORMALITY but in other cases it is NOT.
3) Is the mistake EDITORIAL?
CONTRADICTIONS OR ARE THEY?
In Buddhimanta das prabhu’s article: http://www.hareKrishna.com/sun/editorials/03-12/editorials8369.htm
He is confused by apparent contradictions he points out:
“I have always understood that the two Pandava twins, Nakula and Sahadeva were conceived in the womb of Madri, wife of Maharaj Pandu, from the Ashvini-Kumara twins as a result of her using the mantra(s) given to Kunti devi from Durvasa Muni, and that King Pandu could not impregnate either of his wives due to a curse he received while hunting (see translation to Srimad Bhagavatam 9.22.27-28 given below).
However, I read this morning in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.13.3-4 what seems like a contradiction to this. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada clearly indicates that Nakula and Sahadeva were fathered by King Pandu in the womb of Madri. There is no mention of the Ashvini-Kumara twins. Could anyone please shed some light on this seemingly differing account by Srila Prabhupada on the subject of the impregnating of Madri?
Following are the references, the seemingly contradictory statements are in bold italics.
Srimad Bhagavatam 1.13.3-4 Purport:
“Maharaja Pandu later wanted to retire from family life and adopt the renounced order of life. Kunti refused to allow her husband to adopt such life, but at last Maharaja Pandu gave her permission to become a mother of sons by calling some other suitable personalities. Kunti did not accept this proposal at first, but when vivid examples were set by Pandu she agreed. Thus by dint of the mantra awarded by Durvasa Muni she called for Dharmaraja, and thus Yudhisthira was born. She called for the demigod Vayu (air), and thus Bhima was born. She called for Indra, the King of heaven, and thus Arjuna was born. The other two sons, namely Nakula and Sahadeva, were begotten by Pandu himself in the womb of Madri. Later on, Maharaja Pandu died at an early age, for which Kunti was so aggrieved that she fainted. Two co-wives, namely Kunti and Madri, decided that Kunti should live for the maintenance of the five minor children, the Pandavas, and Madri should accept the sati rituals by meeting voluntary death along with her husband. This agreement was endorsed by great sages like Satasringa and others present on the occasion.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 9.2227-28, Translation:
“Pandu was restrained from sexual life because of having been cursed by a sage, and therefore his three sons Yudhisthira, Bhima and Arjuna were begotten through the womb of his wife, Kunti, by Dharmaraja, by the demigod controlling the wind, and by the demigod controlling the rain. Pandu’s second wife, Madri, gave birth to Nakula and Sahadeva, who were begotten by the two Asvini-kumaras. The five brothers, headed by Yudhisthira, begot five sons through the womb of Draupadi. These five sons were your uncles.”
The following is to clear up the issue:
Srimad Bhagavatam is a compilation of various accounts of history of different planets BUT the accounts in Srimad Bhagavatam CAN vary from MILLENNIUM to MILLENNIUM (basically MILLIONS of years APART) so although in one millennium the character NAMES may be the same, the historical accounts CAN be actually different. In a SINGLE Brahma’s DAY there are many many many many Sahadeva and Nakulas that come and go, so there can be a slight change of characters and history. The history account of one MILLENNIUM does NOT NECESSARILY have to tally with others EXACTLY. In the accounts that follow, one can see that there have been different accounts of Lord Buddha’s history, the Boar incarnations have been different, also the Hiranyakashipu, Ravana and Shishupala are not necessarily the same Jaya and Vijaya every single time – they CAN be different characters. So it is NOT a contradiction that the above two accounts regards Nakula and Sahadeva are different – they may be from historical different MILLENNIUMS.
Bhagavad-gita 8.17 Attaining the Supreme
sahasra-yuga-paryantam
ahar yad brahmano viduh
ratrim yuga-sahasrantam
te ‘ho-ratra-vido janah
TRANSLATION
By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahma’s one day. And such also is the duration of his night.
PURPORT
The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of Brahma, and one day of Brahma consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas or ages: Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali. The cycle of Satya is characterized by virtue, wisdom and religion, there being practically no ignorance and vice, and the yuga lasts 1,728,000 years. In the Treta-yuga vice is introduced, and this yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. In the Dvapara-yuga there is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice increasing, and this yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally in Kali-yuga (the yuga that we have now been experiencing over the past 5,000 years) there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and vice, true virtue being practically nonexistent, and this yuga lasts 432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at the termination of the yuga the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki avatara, vanquishes the demons, saves His devotees, and commences another Satya-yuga. Then the process is set rolling again. THESE FOUR YUGAS, ROTATING A THOUSAND TIMES, COMPRISE ONE DAY OF BRAHMA, THE CREATOR GOD, AND THE SAME NUMBER COMPRISE ONE NIGHT. BRAHMA LIVES ONE HUNDRED OF SUCH “YEARS” AND THEN DIES. THESE “HUNDRED YEARS” BY EARTH CALCULATIONS TOTAL TO 311 TRILLION AND 40 MILLION EARTH YEARS. By these calculations the life of Brahma seems fantastic and interminable, but from the viewpoint of eternity it is as brief as a lightning flash. In the Causal Ocean there are innumerable Brahmas rising and disappearing like bubbles in the Atlantic. Brahma and his creation are all part of the material universe, and therefore they are in constant flux.
Srimad Bhagavatam 3.14.2 Pregnancy of Diti in the Evening
As referred to previously, the boar incarnation was manifested in two millenniums–namely Svayambhuva and Chaksusa. IN BOTH MILLENNIUMS THERE WAS A BOAR INCARNATION OF THE LORD, BUT IN THE SVAYAMBHUVA MILLENNIUM HE LIFTED THE EARTH FROM WITHIN THE WATER OF THE UNIVERSE, WHEREAS IN THE CHAKSUSA MILLENNIUM HE KILLED THE FIRST DEMON, HIRANYAKSHA. IN THE SVAYAMBHUVA MILLENNIUM HE ASSUMED THE COLOR WHITE, AND IN THE CHAKSUSA MILLENNIUM HE ASSUMED THE COLOR RED. Vidura had already heard about one of them, and he proposed to hear about the other. The two different boar incarnations described are the one Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.37 Scheduled Incarnations with Specific Functions
When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky ON WELL-BUILT ROCKETS prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on sub-religious principles.
PURPORT
THIS INCARNATION OF LORD BUDDHA IS NOT THE SAME BUDDHA INCARNATION WE HAVE IN THE PRESENT HISTORY OF MANKIND. ACCORDING TO SRILA JIVA GOSVAMI, THE BUDDHA INCARNATION MENTIONED IN THIS VERSE APPEARED IN A DIFFERENT KALI AGE. In the duration of life of one Manu there are more than seventy-two Kali-yugas, and in one of them the particular type of Buddha mentioned here would appear. Lord Buddha incarnates at a time when the people are most materialistic and preaches common-sense religious principles. Such ahimsa is not a religious principle itself, but it is an important quality for persons who are actually religious. It is a common-sense religion because one is advised to do no harm to any other animal or living being because such harmful actions are equally harmful to he who does the harm. But before learning these principles of nonviolence one has to learn two other principles, namely to be humble and to be prideless. Unless one is humble and prideless, one cannot be harmless and nonviolent. And after being nonviolent one has to learn tolerance and simplicity of living. One must offer respects to the great religious preachers and spiritual leaders and also train the senses for controlled action, learning to be unattached to family and home, and enacting devotional service to the Lord, etc. At the ultimate stage one has to accept the Lord and become His devotee; otherwise there is no religion. In religious principles there must be God in the center; otherwise simple moral instructions are merely sub-religious principles, generally known as upadharma, or nearness to religious principles.
Adi 5.36 The Glories of Lord Nityananda Balarama
This discussion between Maitreya Muni and Parashara Muni centered on whether devotees come down into the material world in every millennium like Jaya and Vijaya, who were cursed by the Kumaras to that effect. IN THE COURSE OF THESE INSTRUCTIONS TO MAITREYA ABOUT HIRANYAKASHIPU, RAVANA AND SHISHUPALA, PARASHARA DID NOT SAY THAT THESE DEMONS WERE FORMERLY JAYA AND VIJAYA. HE SIMPLY DESCRIBED THE TRANSMIGRATION THROUGH THREE LIVES. It is NOT NECESSARY for the Vaikuntha associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead to come to take the roles of His enemies IN ALL THE MILLENNIUMS in which He appears. The “fall down” of Jaya and Vijaya occurred in a particular millennium; Jaya and Vijaya do not come down in every millennium to act as demons. TO THINK THAT SOME ASSOCIATES OF THE LORD FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA IN EVERY MILLENNIUM TO BECOME DEMONS IS TOTALLY INCORRECT.
Lectures, Srimad Bhagavatam, March 31, 1976, Vrindavan
That shravana, hearing also, should be accepted from devotee, from real devotee. Sri Svarupa Damodara Gosvami recommended that a brahmana… He wrote something about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and there were so many discrepancies. So Svarupa Damodara Gosvami was not at all satisfied with such writings. He chastised the brahmana that “You cannot write.” So unless one is self-realized, there is practically no use writing about Krishna. This transcendental writing does not depend on material education. It depends on the spiritual realization. YOU’LL FIND, THEREFORE, IN THE COMMENTS OF BHAGAVATAM BY DIFFERENT ACHARYAS, EVEN THERE ARE SOME DISCREPANCIES, THEY ARE ACCEPTED AS ASAT-PATHA. IT SHOULD REMAIN AS IT IS.
So Sanatana Gosvami therefore said, avaisnava-mukhodgirnam putam hari-kathamrtam, sravanam naiva kartavyam: “One who is not Vaishnava, from him one should not hear hari-kathamrtam.” Hari-katha Srimad-Bhagavatam is hari-katha, and it is amrita, nectarine. But if it is recited or explained by some avaisnava, one should not hear. It is forbidden. The example is given, sarpocchistam payo yatha. So professional reciters or one who speaks and writes for living means it is strictly prohibited. Na vyakhyam upayunjitah. One should not make Bhagavata recitation as a means of livelihood. That is, the process is not accepted. So sravanam kirtanam visnoh. You should hear from Vaishnava, at least one who is trying to become Vaishnava, not professional man. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat.
Letter: Mandali Bhadra, January 20, 1972
So far your telling me that some devotees consider that because there may be some grammatical discrepancies in my Srimad-Bhagavatam, first canto, then they may also be allowed to translate with errors accepted, that is just like imitating Raslila. When you do all other things like Krishna, they you can do Raslila. So if these other writers can do like me and spread Krishna Consciousness all over the world by becoming big Vedic scholars, then they can do. IF ONE IS TOO BIG, THERE IS NO MISTAKE. ARSAPREYAYA MEANS THERE MAY BE DISCREPANCIES BUT IT IS ALL RIGHT. Just like Shakespeare, sometimes there are odd usages of language, but he is accepted as authority. I have explained all these things in my Preface to First Canto.
Room Conversation, February 27, 1977, Mayapur
Prabhupada: THE SYSTEM IS: WHATEVER AUTHORITY HAS DONE, EVEN THERE IS MISTAKE, IT SHOULD BE ACCEPTED.
Radha-vallabha: Oh.
Prabhupada: Asa-praya(?) That is ha… He should not become more learned than the authority. That is very bad habit
I still am unable to locate that one particular conversation I mentioned but here are some more that point to the same conclusion about the eventual necessity of formal initiation to remove offenses and make progress.
Initiation means formally acceptance of the line of activities in Krsna consciousness. Before that, before initiation, we invite everyone to come and sit down with us, chant, dance, take prasadam, hear philosophy. And if he understands, “Oh, this is very nice,” then he offers himself to be initiated. Then we accept. Then we impose this restriction that “If you want to be initiated…” We get hundreds of letters by everyone who has attended our classes. Daily we are getting some married couples or boys and girls, but most of them are younger. My students are within thirties. The oldest student I have got at the present moment, he is twenty-eight years. No, Kirtanananda is about thirty years old. That’s all. So, of course, I do not get any older people. That is nice, hopeful, because younger section, if they take it very seriously, then I have hopes that they will preach in future, even in my absence. And old people, if a man becomes too much accustomed to a certain limited habits, in old age it is very difficult to give it up unless one is extraordinarily intelligent.
Interviewer: What is the purpose of the robes and having your head shaved?…
Prabhupada: That is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Krsna consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacari should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we… [break] This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulations which I give them.
Any part of the world, we chant Hare Krsna, and they can very easily imitate and chant. Even child, they also. So by chanting, he gradually becomes Krsna conscious. His heart becomes cleansed and he can understand what is science of Krsna, what is science of God. Then he automatically offers himself for initiation. Then we initiate him and guide him in different ways. But our students are strictly forbidden to have illicit sex life or meat-eating or intoxication or gambling. These four things are strictly forbidden for our students. And they take it seriously.
February, 1968 : Interview — February 1, 1968, Los Angeles
So no illicit sex life, no meat-eating or animal food, no intoxication, no gambling. So every student has to follow these four prin… Otherwise I don’t initiate. I don’t take cheap students, that “You can do whatever you like, and you pay me some money. I give you some mantra, and you become God.” I don’t say like that. I don’t bluff like that. I have not come to earn money from your country, but I have come to your country to give you something sublime, not to take you, not to take from you, not to exploit you, but to give you something sublime. You see? So that is the third stage, initiation. And then, if you are situated in the third stage nicely—that means if you follow the regulative principles under my direction—then the fourth stage automatically comes. After this third stage, the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, up to eighth, automatically comes. That is gradual development. So in the third stage, if you follow the regulative principle and chant with some prescribed number, numerical strength, then your all misgivings will be over automatically.
Interview — March 9, 1968, San Francisco
Guest (7): To chant Krsna’s name, I was wondering if I could have the blessing and the beads.
Prabhupada: Yes. You can have the beads, but there is a process. Whether you are prepared to… Otherwise, you can chant. There is no restriction. You can take the beads and chant. But if you want to be officially initiated, there are certain rules and regulations, and other things. But without being officially initiated, nobody is barred from chanting. You can chant. Just like Ekalavya, he was speaking. Although he was not initiated by Dronacarya, he became a good archer, simply by practicing. Similarly you can practice: chant Hare Krsna.
Guest (3): Swamiji, tomorrow is Gaura-purnima. And a friend of mine, his father, or his mother died on Ekadasi day. Husband and wife were, they had been fasting Ekadasi doing Satya-narayana-katha. So now father, he is very lonely, and he said, “I have got no guru.” Then I told him about you. So he immediately grabbed the idea. He wants to come tomorrow, in the morning to have your blessings. But then is it possible that he could have the initiation?
Prabhupada: Well, let him come. First of all let him understand…
Guest (3): That man already comes. But tomorrow is Gaura-purnima. That’s why I thought if tomorrow…
Guest (8): If he deserves it.
Prabhupada: So let him come tomorrow. We shall see.
Guest (3): Tomorrow morning? Accha. The beads, Swamiji. He wants the beads. We can get it from the office?
Prabhupada: No, beads, they also purchase from the market. There is no harm. Either you take it from here or from the market.
Hamsaduta: We buy our beads at the market also. The thing is that if someone wants to be initiated, then he has to be prepared to follow some principles, four principles. Prabhupada just mentioned them. He must be prepared to give up all intoxicants, all illicit sex life, meat-eating, meat, fish, eggs, and no gambling. And chant the prescribed number of rounds, sixteen rounds. And anyone can be initiated, but he must be prepared to follow these restrictions. Otherwise, the effect of the chanting will not be as…
Indian: As effective as it would be.
Hamsaduta: Exactly.
Guest (4): So what you’re saying is that there’s no harm by his…
Prabhupada: No, you can… That will help you in future to give up these habits. Chanting you can begin at any condition. But when we initiate officially, we take this promise. Then we initiate. This is our condition. Yatra papas catur-vidha. According to sastra, these are four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. But these are modern civilization. It is very difficult.
Room Conversation with Indian Guests — July 11, 1973, London
Siddha-svarupa: There are a lot of devotees here who follow the principles but cannot completely… [break] …shaved up, and they still wear karmi clothes pretty much, but they’re clean, they’re devotees, and in this way they’re attracting many of the local people, because they’re able to relate to them.
Prabhupada: So that…
Siddha-svarupa: They’re not lowering your standard.
Prabhupada: No, naturally, but when they are initiated they must shave. They must keep to the standard. If one becomes initiated and he still keeps the hippie form, that does not look nice. Do you think that is all right? No, that is not good. So long they are coming as outsider, joining kirtana, they may have their own dress, it doesn’t matter. They are coming to kirtana, that must be (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master.
Siddha-svarupa: So…
Prabhupada: Otherwise they should not be initiated. It is simple thing. Let them go on chanting, taking prasadam; we have no (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow. This is the clear (indistinct). If you don’t want to disturb them, let them come, chant, dance, take prasadam We have no objection. But don’t recommend them for initiation unless he agrees to the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Where is the wrong? Where is the difficulty? You can talk with him like that.
Siddha-svarupa: I think they only feel that because…
Prabhupada: No feeling, if you…, when you are surrendering to the spiritual… Sisyas te ‘ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Find out this verse. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya.
Hari-sauri:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jsanam
jsaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively…”
Prabhupada: Mm? Where are they? Mm.
Hari-sauri: “Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Enquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.”
Prabhupada: You have to submit. You cannot remain independent. That is the first condition. Sisyas te ‘ham, sisya. Sisya means voluntarily accepting the rules offered by the spiritual master. That is sisya: “Ah, yes, I agree to abide by your order.” Then he becomes sisya. Otherwise where is the question… “I am thinking like this, I am thinking…” So long you are thinking otherwise, you don’t try to become a sisya. You remain outside and you are welcome: chant, dance, take prasadam, and remain independent. There is no objection. But when you become sisya, then you cannot remain independent. These things convince him. Then you don’t become sisya. Remain as friend, there is no harm. Just like so many people, they come. So if these things (indistinct). One thousand twenty, checks (indistinct). This way. What is the wrong there?
Hari-sauri: So then part of initiation means that you’re prepared to do something more than simply chant and eat prasadam?
Prabhupada: Initiation means to follow instructions of the spiritual master. That is the first (indistinct) And if there is still hesitation to surrender to the rules and regulations, then all other (indistinct).
Siddha-svarupa: I think it is pretty clear, Srila Prabhupada. It’s just for clarification, that they’re working, they have a store on…, a very nice store, they’re distributing foodstuffs to all the other stores on the island, and they’re working a lot within the society with the karmis, I guess. So their thinking is that “If we shave our heads and wear robes, like that, then they’ll look at us…
Prabhupada: That is not… Because imitating. Officially don’t chant. Who is prohibiting to chant? You can chant, you can dance, you can take prasadam.
Room Conversation with Siddha-svarupa — May 3, 1976, Honolulu
Brahmananda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.
Ramesvara: So that distinction should be there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: We were thinking that somehow this magazine…
Prabhupada: No, another thing, it is aparadha… Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. Unless he is in the process he’ll think, “I am chanting Hare Krsna mantra, so whatever sinful activities I am…, it will be controlled.”
Brahmananda: That’s the worst offense.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very bad offense.
Hari-sauri: So we’re actually advertising the process of devotional service, not just simply haphazard chanting.
Prabhupada: First of all we are chanting just to make him little attracted. Adau sraddha.
Ramesvara: Just to popularize it.
Prabhupada: Yes, that’s it. Then, if the heart is little cleansed, then they will understand. It will be effective, but when it is done properly it will give real effect. Outsider, those who are chanting, we don’t discourage him.
Ramesvara: We want then to chant more.
Prabhupada: Yes. But we must… They must know the science also.
Ramesvara: Just like this Alice Coltrane. She has done her small part. She made this record album with Govinda Jaya Jaya and Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is… That will be a good thing. But when he (she) does it properly it will be more effective, because there is… If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance.
Ramesvara: So in the past, in the magazine, we have only shown people chanting if they were initiated devotees, shaven-headed, living in temple. And recently they have adopted to show people who have jobs outside the movement, and they are not brahmacari or sannyasi. They’re also chanting, to give the public the idea that…
Prabhupada: So that we are giving, the facility to chant and take prasadam, but at the same time, gradually, if chanting is effective, then next we have to make it in the process.
Brahmananda: We want to bring them to the process.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the ultimate. That is stated by Rupa Gosvami,
yena tena prakarena
manah krsne nivesayet
sarve vidhi-nisedha syur
etayor eva kinkarah
that “Somehow or other, bring him to chant Krsna or to become little Krsna conscious. Then, when he’s little purified, then the vidhi-nisedhah…” He’s not rejecting the vidhi-nisedhah. Vidhi-nisedhah means regulative principles. It is not rejected, that… But when he’s a little purified, this vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. Just like one… First of all let him become rich, get some money. And then, when he has got money, he can keep some servant, some assistant, some secretaries, like that. First of all earn money.
Ramesvara: So one step at a time.
Prabhupada: Yes. But organized business means there must be so many men, secretary, manager. That is regulated. So in the beginning, “All right, bring some money somehow. Then I shall…” So you cannot reject this organization because he’s chanting. Then what is the use of writing so many books, the nama-aparadha and other discussions, if anyone can chant?
Ramesvara: So it definitely has to lead them to that.
Prabhupada: Yes. So we must come to that point. In the beginning you may be very liberal: “All right, chant.” We do like that, and I have done it. There is no regulation. But that does not…, that it should be neglected. He should be given affirmed, “By simply, whimsically chanting this…” No, that is not.
Hari-sauri: Niyamagraha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Don’t make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.
Ramesvara: I’ve seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now…
Prabhupada: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.
Ramesvara: Now, these scientists, they are studying Hare Krsna meditation, but they’re also studying some other processes which are not authorized. And they are…
Prabhupada: That is the defect.
Ramesvara: And they’re stating that in general, to meditate, to chant mantra, this is good, this is healthy for the mind.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. The thing is that some way or other, if you are near the fire, you’ll get some heat, but there is a process how to take heat…
Prabhupada: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that “If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective.”
Ramesvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.
Prabhupada: Yes. Prema pum-artho mahan. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, namaksara bahir haya nama nahi haya: “The… Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nama.” Namaksara, Hare Krsna, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.
Ramesvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations… [break]
Room Conversation With Artists and About BTG — February 25, 1977
All of the process needs to be eventually built back up again: harinama, books, temples, initiations, prasadam distribution, farms, restaurants, the whole program is needed from top to bottom, and it will eventually be rebuilt. However, its going to take some time to get the ball rolling again, or even, to get it back the where it was in 1977.
Its true that initiation ceremonies were ordered, and quite honestly that is one of the biggest problems we are having right now here in Berkeley, almost nobody is getting initiated by these bogus gurus, so we have hardly no one here in the community anymore to do the deity worship since there are supposed to be brahmana initiated people doing that. I was painting the deity here every year, then some fools said we do not want that anymore, so basically they have no one who really knows how to repair and patch up the Jagganatha and paint him properly. They just want nothing mostly. My wife had to sew the deity outfit, or there would have been none for the Rathayatra.
The few older people are just dying off, and the younger ones are not jumping up and down to get on board with the GBC gurus, so its just sort of a slow meltdown stalemate, and so — apart from the fact the devotees not being introduced to the proper channel of initiation, the deity is the biggest loser in this battle because His servants are drying up. The good news is that Bangalore initiated a bunch of people and sent them to Sunnyvale, so our ritvik temple is doing good. ys pd
So since I’m not initiated, does that mean I cannot make full use of my life by making sound and good advancement (although I have access to Prabhupada’s teachings?)?
I am thoroughly disappointed if this the case. I pray to Krsna that I may become sincere and recieve proper initiation.
But I really do not understand how to deal with the apparent contradictions regarding initiation explained in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Why is it that it is mentioned that the Holy Name is independent of any formal initiation and at the same time, one cannot purely chant unless one is properly formally intiated? I am confused.
I will be thoroughly indebted if anyone can give me relief from my confusion.I beg for mercy so that I can come to a conclusive understanding.
My question are proving as impediments to my chanting.
Your servant,
Santosh
KRSNA AND BALARAMA JUMPED FROM THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN DOWN TO THE GROUND–A DISTANCE OF EIGHTY-EIGHT MILES.
There are many faithless persons who come to Krishna Consciousness and then because they find following 4 regulative principles, chanting HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE 16 rounds the rules very strict. No sense-gratification allowed etc they then seek to despise Srila Prabhupada and find some fault with him AND reject him as Diksa Guru. They then attack his books especially Krsna Book. One will find the instances in the Krsna Book that are “just out of this world” BUT in reality that is just what it is TRANSCENDENTAL. Krsna Is the SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD and His Pastimes are TRANSCENDENTAL. Krsna is GOD so He can choose what He wants in His Pastimes be it the witch Putna or big mountains he jumps from and anything He chooses. The envious do NOT want Krsna as God neither they want Srila Prabhupada as current Diksa Guru or his Ritvik System BUT this does NOT mean Krsna will stop being God just because they want it that way. Srila Prabhupada is OUR BONAFIDE CURRENT DIKSA GURU – AND will remain AS LONG AS his books are on the planet.
KB 52 Krsna, the Ranacora
After traversing a very long distance, the brothers pretended to become very tired. To mitigate Their weariness They climbed up a very high mountain several miles above sea level. This mountain was called Pravarsana due to constant rain. The peak was always covered with clouds sent by Indra. Jarasandha took it for granted that the two brothers were afraid of his military power and had hidden Themselves at the top of the mountain. First he tried to find Them, searching for a long time, but when he failed he decided to trap and kill Them by setting fires around the peak. He therefore surrounded the peak with oil and set it on fire. As the blaze spread more and more, KRSNA AND BALARAMA JUMPED FROM THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN DOWN TO THE GROUND–A DISTANCE OF EIGHTY-EIGHT MILES.
Note: Krsna is the MASTER OF ALL MYSTICS so what is the problem if the pastimes in Krsna Book are EXTRA ORDINARY?
Bg 18.78 Conclusion–The Perfection of Renunciation
yatra yogesvarah krsno
yatra partho dhanur-dharah
tatra srir vijayo bhutir
dhruva nitir matir mama
WHEREVER THERE IS KRSNA, THE MASTER OF ALL MYSTICS, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, THERE WILL ALSO CERTAINLY BE OPULENCE, VICTORY, EXTRAORDINARY POWER, AND MORALITY. That is my opinion.
760620mw.tor Conversations
Prabhupada: (break) …their achievement, no more death? As soon as you ask this question, matte kara het. Bado bado bado badora(?) baro baro pet lanka dingaya matte karo het. “Big, big monkey, big, big, belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy.” What scientific advancement? Do you think there will be no more death? Matte kore het: (?)”Yes, we are trying.” Answer them, “What is your achievement?” All achievement will be, remain in your back and you’ll have to die. So what you have done, insurance, that you’ll enjoy this? You’ll be kicked out of the scene at any moment. What you have done for this? What is the answer? Mattah kore het “Yes, we are trying.” (laughter) Nonsense, you are trying. And we have to see this nonsense. We are not so fool. And if they say, “What you are doing?” “Yes, we are doing that. How to conquer over death.” Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti, mam eti. That is we are trying. That is real scientific. And what is method? Very simple: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru mam evaisyasi asamsayah. “Without any doubt, he comes to Me.” This is science. Why shall I waste time? Svarupa Damodara challenged one scientist in California that “If I give you the chemicals, can you manufacture life?” He said, “That I cannot say.” What you have spoken all this nonsense? Mattah kore het. And when there is challenge, mattah kore het. Otherwise, baro baro bagara, baro baro phet, big, big monkey, big, big belly. And when the real question is there, mattah kore het. Ceylon jumping, melancholy. Hanuman jumped over the ocean, so other monkeys, they also become very proud: “I am…, Hanuman is our leader, we can…,” “Can you jump over Ceylon?” Mattah het. (break) …speak all these things, Indian villagers, they will immediately believe. One cobbler…. I think I narrated this story. Narada Muni was going to Vaikuntha. Did I say that?
Hari-sauri: I think this story’s in Raja-vidya, that small book. The one about the brahmana and the cobbler?
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Cobbler immediately believed when he was informed by Narada Muni that “I saw God is pulling one elephant through the hole of a needle, this side and again this side.” The brahmana did not believe it. And as soon as the cobbler, he was also devotee, oh, he began to pray, “Oh, my Lord can do anything.” Narada Muni, “You believed it?” “Yes, why not?” “How do you believe it?” “I am daily seeing. I am underneath the tree, and so many figs are dropping, and each fig has got thousands of seeds, and in each seed there is another tree. Why should I not believe it?” He did not believe it blindly. With reason, and he gave immediately reason: “When I see this fig tree, big fig tree, and there are millions of figs dropping, and in each fig there are millions of seeds, and each seed there is…. WHY SHALL I NOT BELIEVE IT?” GOD, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE BY GOD, everything.
Satsvarupa: The brahmana was supposed to be learned in the Vedas.
Prabhupada: AH, YES. AND HE SAID, “THESE ARE ALL…,” WHAT IS CALLED? MYTHOLOGY. WHY MYTHOLOGY? WHY DO YOU THINK GOD LIKE YOU? GOD IS ALL-POWERFUL; HE CAN DO ANYTHING. THAT IS REAL FAITH. THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO FAITH. “IF GOD CAN DO WHICH TALLIES WITH MY ACTIVITIES, THEN I SHALL BELIEVE.” WHAT YOU ARE? NONSENSE. THIS IS THEIR GENERAL ARGUMENT. HOW WE CAN BELIEVE THIS? And why not believe this? You are seeing so many wonderful things. I gave this example to another man, that there is a coconut tree. Now find out where is the pipe and pumping so that the water is pushed. Show me. You have no idea that such a high height, how water is going there. And full of water. How the water is transferred there? Show me the pipe and pump. You have got the idea, that with pipe and pump we can raise the water. Where is that pipe and pump? Show me. Every day, every moment, we are seeing so many wonderful things. How you are thinking…. “I am Dr. Frog. Pacific Ocean may be four feet. All right, five feet. Make compromise, ten feet.” (laughter) Rascal. If you think for many millions of years, then you’ll have no solution. Panthas tu koti-sata-vatsara-sampragamyo. It is not possible in that way. They have no idea of God.
Hari-sauri: Everything is there, but actually they don’t see.
Prabhupada: Because they are not devotee. Pasyanti jnana-caksusa. Mam ebhyah param, mudha nabhijanati mam ebhyah parama-avyayam. Param bhavam ajanantah. Param bhavam ajanantah. They have no knowledge.
Satsvarupa: They think that if they follow, they’ll still be misled. “Why should I believe? It may not be true.”
Prabhupada: But you are already misled. Why not be second time misled? You are already misled, thousand times. Why not try once more. You are making so much arrangement to live comfortably, but you are kicked out. Are you not misled? Bahir-artha-maninah. You are thinking that by adjustment of this external energy, you will be able to live very happily. Is it possible? You are trying, problem after problem, problem after problem. So you are already misled.
Satsvarupa: You’ve said, “Just give this one life to Krsna. You’ve misgambled so many lives. Why not give one to Krsna?”
Prabhupada: You are misled already so many lives. All right, be misled another life. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja.
Note: THE MORE SINFUL ONE IS, THE MORE MAYA WILL PREVENT ONE FROM BECOMING KRSNA CONSCIOUS
SB 3.30.4 P Description by Lord Kapila of Adverse Fruitive Activities
The satisfaction of the living entity in a particular type of body, even if it is most abominable, is called illusion. A man in a higher position may feel dissatisfaction with the standard of life of a lower-grade man, but the lower-grade man is satisfied in that position because of the spell of maya, the external energy. MAYA HAS TWO PHASES OF ACTIVITIES. ONE IS CALLED PRAKSEPATMIKA, AND THE OTHER IS CALLED AVARANATMIKA. AVARANATMIKA MEANS “COVERING,” AND PRAKSEPATMIKA MEANS “PULLING DOWN.” IN ANY CONDITION OF LIFE, THE MATERIALISTIC PERSON OR ANIMAL WILL BE SATISFIED BECAUSE HIS KNOWLEDGE IS COVERED BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA. IN THE LOWER GRADE OR LOWER SPECIES OF LIFE, THE DEVELOPMENT OF CONSCIOUSNESS IS SO POOR THAT ONE CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHETHER HE IS HAPPY OR DISTRESSED. THIS IS CALLED AVARANATMIKA. EVEN A HOG, WHO LIVES BY EATING STOOL, FINDS HIMSELF HAPPY, ALTHOUGH A PERSON IN A HIGHER MODE OF LIFE SEES THAT THE HOG IS EATING STOOL. HOW ABOMINABLE THAT LIFE IS!
Madhya 20.6 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF COVERING POWERS EXHIBITED BY MAYA. ONE IS CALLED PRAKSEPATMIKA, AND THE OTHER IS CALLED AVARANATMIKA. WHEN ONE IS DETERMINED TO GET OUT OF MATERIAL BONDAGE, THE PRAKSEPATMIKA-SAKTI, THE SPELL OF DIVERSION, IMPELS ONE TO REMAIN IN CONDITIONED LIFE FULLY SATISFIED BY SENSE GRATIFICATION. DUE TO THE OTHER POWER (AVARANATMIKA), A CONDITIONED SOUL FEELS SATISFIED EVEN IF HE IS ROTTING IN THE BODY OF A PIG OR A WORM IN STOOL. To release a conditioned soul from material bondage is very difficult because the spell of maya is so strong. Even when the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself descends to deliver conditioned souls, asking them to surrender unto Him, the conditioned souls do not agree to the Lord’s proposals.
DWT 10 The Sword of Remembrance
ACTUALLY, THIS IS MAYA, ILLUSION. MAYA HAS TWO ENERGIES, THE AVARANATMIKA-SAKTI AND THE PRAKSEPATMIKA-SAKTI. THE AVARANATMIKA-SAKTI COVERS A LIVING ENTITY WITH IGNORANCE. EVEN THOUGH HE IS LIVING A CONDEMNED LIFE, STILL HE WILL THINK, “I AM VERY HAPPY. I AM ALL RIGHT.” HIS REAL KNOWLEDGE IS COVERED. AND THE PRAKSEPATMIKA-SAKTI THROWS THE LIVING ENTITY DOWN INTO THE OCEAN OF MATERIAL EXISTENCE AND KEEPS HIM THERE. When somebody is trying to come to Krsna consciousness, the praksepatmika-sakti will dictate, “Why are you going to the Krsna consciousness society? There are so many restrictions there, so many rules and regulations. Better give it up.” And the conditioned soul thinks, “Why, yes, this Krsna consciousness is nonsense. Let me give it up.” THE MORE SINFUL ONE IS, THE MORE MAYA WILL PREVENT ONE FROM BECOMING KRSNA CONSCIOUS. That is maya’s thankless task. She is just like the police department. The police are no one’s enemy, but when someone commits a crime they arrest him, put him in jail, and punish him. Similarly, maya is engaged by the supreme authority, Krsna, to punish the sinful living entities.
730926BG.BOM Lectures
Just like the cloud covers the sunshine. We cannot see. Now a few days it is going on; there is cloud always. We do not see the sun. That does not mean there is no sun in the sky. SO MAYA DOES NOT ALLOW US TO SEE KRSNA. THAT IS ONE SAKTI. AVARANATMIKA-SAKTI. AND ANOTHER SAKTI IS PRAKSEPATMIKA-SAKTI. EVEN ONE DESIRES TO SEE KRSNA, SHE THROWS AWAY. SHE TESTS WHETHER ACTUALLY HE WANTS KRSNA OR KEEPING KRSNA IN THE FRONT, HE WANTS SOME MATERIAL PLEASURE. THEREFORE SHE THROWS AWAY. IN THIS WAY MAYA-SAKTI IS ACTING.
Krsna therefore says, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya. maya is very powerful. BUT IF ONE IS VERY RIGID IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, MAM EVA YE PRAPADYANTE MAYAM ETAN TARANTI TE, HE CAN OVERCOME THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA. SO KSETRAJNAM CAPI MAM VIDDHI. SO THAT KSETRAJNA, KNOWER OF THE BODY, KRSNA, HE’S ALSO THERE. HE’S ALWAYS READY TO HELP US, PROVIDED WE ARE SERIOUS ABOUT KRSNA. THAT IS KRSNA’S MERCY. SO THIS IS THE PROCESS OF PLEASING KRSNA.
Santosh Prabhu please read:
This is from Srila Prabhupada Memories:
In 1972, when Srila Prabhupada gave a series of lectures onThe Nectar of Devotion for one month in Vrindavana, a thought was plaguing me. When I first joined, I’d been taught that the parampara system is like a chain, and if you’re not initiated, if you’re not initiated, if you’re not linked up to this chain, then you can’t go back to Godhead. I thought, “We’re distributing so many books, but if the people who read them are not initiated, then they can’t go back to Godhead”. So one day I followed Srila Prabhupada from Rupa Goswami’s samadhi, where he lectured, and just before Srila Prabhupada stepped onto his courtyard, I said, “Srila Prabhupada, we’re distributing so many books but if people aren’t initiated, then they can’t go back to Godhead”. Srila Prabhupada turned, looked me right in the eyes and said, “Just by reading my books they are initiated”. I thought, “That is an incredible example of compassion”.(Vaikunthanatha Das ACBSP)
Puranjan Prabhu wrote:
“Its true that initiation ceremonies were ordered, and quite honestly that is one of the biggest problems we are having right now here in Berkeley, almost nobody is getting initiated by these bogus gurus…”
Mahesh: In UK I heard from some Bhaktivedanta Manor devotees that Kripamoya das who everyone knows is always chasing after money from Hindus–just common knowledge. So I was told he became a bogus guru recently and he got himself ONE woman as his disciple – so that is called his ” grand success “. That is – “some success”!!! OR whatever you want to call it. I was told EVERYONE was laughing at him it was so hilarious. People are not stupid they see through the whole CON game. Devotees are reading ALL the Ritvik literatures on Internet and they KNOW the TRUTH that Srila Prabhupada is the CURRENT DIKSA GURU.
The answer is simple, its always better to have functioning temples which are giving people training and subsequent initiation — along with: Proper deity worship to encourage these people by seeing the deity along with nice temple kirtanas etc.; Proper preaching engagements to build up the congregation and enthuse one another thereby; Proper devotee association which is almost essential for most folks since, as we see, they often gravitate back to pot smoking and watching football if there is no temple and devotee association for them.
And in sum, a nice functioning temple provides the foundation BASIS of the initiation / diksha activities for the entire Krishna consciousness process, WHICH INCLUDES the initiation process because they are hearing the divyam jnanam in morning and evening classes and so on, and the initiated people are then provided all kinds of DEVOTIONAL SERVICE engagements, the root of which is service to KRISHNA, and that means for most folks, BY HAVING A TEMPLE for them to serve — God, guru, deity, devotees, preaching to the public engagements and so on.
Just like Its better for the Christians to have a Church where they can go and get baptized and have priests perform their marriage ceremonies and so on. However if there is no functioning temple or Church, or for some reason you live in an isolated place, you can still worship God because He is independent of these things, because He is everywhere, but its more difficult without a functioning organization. This is not a contradiction, its just common sense, the formal process is always better because having a functioning process with a temple / initiation and association and so on — helps one regulate the service.
As we see with these GBC gurus, they give initiation and then almost never see the so-called disciples, so over here we had the followers of Swarupa Damodar having a pot smoker club, then the followers of Narayana Maharaja had the next pot club, there has to be more than so-called initiations, there needs to be a functioning program to regulate the diksha process for most people. If there is no program, then you still have to worship Krishna by yourself, that is fine, but that is not the better path. None of this is contrary. ys pd
Why is it that it is mentioned that the Holy Name is independent of any formal initiation and at the same time, one cannot purely chant unless one is properly formally intiated? I am confused..
Santosh,
You did not reproduce the quote exactly, and that is important.
1. It is not mentioned that the Holy Name is independent of formal initiation. It IS mentioned that the CHANTING of the Holy Name is independent of formal initiation.
This means, that anyone can chant the Holy Names, whether they are formally initiated or not.
2. Nowhere does it say that one cannot chant purely unless they are formally initiated.
For example, sometimes a person is born an advanced Mahabhagavata, as in the case of Haridas Thakura, among others. They are already attached in love with Krsna. So their chanting is pure as soon as they start chanting.
FOR THE REST OF US, we begin chanting with offenses. Even without being formally initiated, if we are sincere and can vow to follow as many principles as possible, we will become somewhat purified, and our chanting of the Holy names will be less and less offensive. So that one day, when we are ready, we will come together with like minded senior and junior devotees, and live in a community, which will help us become even more purified of offenses. This community living will INCLUDE formal initiation.
Until then, the HOLY NAMES ARE PURE, and chanting them offensively does not change their purity, but their purity will work on us and purify us as much as possible, before we can come to the next stage of Sadhu sanga in an organized Sankirtana community, which will include formal initiations.
I hope this helps clear things up.
ys
Mark
Good! Yes, and even if one gets formal initiation as many of the senior devotees of ISKCON had, that does not in any way guarantee they will understand the siddhanta. Real initiation is acceptance of the actual vani of the guru, not just the ceremony. The ceremony is meant to help solidify that relationship, and that is fine, but real initiation is: When a person accepts the divyam jnanam from the guru. ys pd
Hearty thank to all the devotees who were very compasionate to clear my doubts, even though I am just a beginner and my doubts may be so silly. I am very inspired to continue chanting and read Srila Prabhupad’s books. If I am sincere, Krsna will arrange everything for me.
Your servant,
Santosh
Dear Bhakta Santosh,
Hare Krishna, AGTSP. PAMHO.
It is good to know that you feel inspired to continue chanting and reading Srila Prabhupada’s Books. That is because you are sincere in cultivating Krsna Consciousness. By the grace of Shri Krishna in One of His feature as Paramatma directs you to continue your Sadhana according to your capacity and capability under the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. With your Sukriti, some how or other you have come in contact with Srila Prabhupada’s Vani who is the bona fide Representative of Shri Krishsna Chaitanya. So this is the arrangement Shri Krishna has made for all of us to go home Back to Godhead.
Now it is up to you how you take this process of cultivating KC which shall then determine how your destiny is shaped up according to your sincere and serious efforts in that direction.
Please feel free to ask any question. There are many qualified senior devotees of Srila Prabhupada who are committed to help and spread the mission of Srila Prabhupada selflessly and are available for the right guidance as per the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
Hope this meets you well in your KC.
Hari BOL.
YS….. Amar Puri.
Hare Krsna Santosh!
Yes Yes Yes, I have a smile splitting my face open right now! You got it. Keep on doing what you are doing and your sincerity will bear fruit, one step at a time!
This is a GRADUAL process, and it is meant to be relished all along the journey.
In Bhakti Yoga the Journey IS the Goal.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
ys
Mark
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupadanugas.eu is a wonderful website in which sincere disciples of Prabhupada help others to take shelter of Prabhupada by dint of their sincerity and scholarliness in Prabhupada’s works. Thanks to Amar Puri Prabhu and Bhakta Mark Prabhu for their encouragement.
Your servant,
Santosh
Officiating Acarya – Simple Basic Understanding:
1) Srila Prabhupada was asked a question on Officiating Acarya. Tamal Krsna wanted to push this term “Ritvik-Acarya”. However ,Srila Prabhupada did NOT call them as Ritvik Acarya.
Srila Prabhupada ONLY called them:
Prabhupada: RTVIK, YES
FOLLOW-UP was the July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order ADDRESSED to:
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
2a) Description of duties and clarification that those initiated are on behalf of Srila Prabhupada by the Ritvik Representative are Srila Prabhupada’s INITIATED disciples. They are NOT disciples of the Ritvik(Officiating Acarya): THESE REPRESENTATIVES MAY ACCEPT THE DEVOTEE AS AN INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA BY GIVING A SPIRITUAL NAME, OR IN THE CASE OF SECOND INITIATION, BY CHANTING ON THE GAYATRI THREAD, JUST AS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS DONE. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD
2b)HIS SENIOR DISCIPLES TO ACT AS “RITVIK–REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION.
770528me.vrn Conversations
Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: RTVIK, YES.
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, SRILA PRABHUPADA INDICATED THAT SOON HE WOULD APPOINT SOME OF HIS SENIOR DISCIPLES TO ACT AS “RITVIK–REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives ARE NEAREST THEIR TEMPLE. AFTER CONSIDERING THE RECOMMENDATION, THESE REPRESENTATIVES MAY ACCEPT THE DEVOTEE AS AN INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA BY GIVING A SPIRITUAL NAME, OR IN THE CASE OF SECOND INITIATION, BY CHANTING ON THE GAYATRI THREAD, JUST AS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS DONE. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD, the above eleven senior devotees ACTING AS HIS REPRESENTATIVE. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book
Note: Tamal Krsna as Srila Prabhupada’s SECRETARY was entrusted with this VERY SIMPLE BASIC TASK of entering the name of a newly initiated disciple in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book :
770707rc.vrn
Tamala Krsna: These men, they can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is doing so on your behalf.
Prabhupada: YES.
Tamala Krsna: YOU KNOW THAT BOOK I’M MAINTAINING OF ALL OF YOUR DISCIPLES’ NAMES? SHOULD I CONTINUE THAT?
PRABHUPADA: HM.