Update on Rocana Dasa’s Sampradaya Sun

Comments

1. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

   25. December 2012 at 2:35 pm

   What do you expect, Bhakta George Prabhu?

   Rocana Dasa:

   1. …is guilty of the worst possible wife abuse by divorcing one or more of his then current wives.

   2. …has demonstrated over the years that he is completely incapable of displaying even a modicum of Vaisnava humility.

   3. …wants to be a guru, but is not qualified even by the ISKCON GBC’s low standards.

   4. …is yet again re-married, but even though he sleeps with his “wife” in a big double bed, he has not given his “wife” any children!

   5. …tried to get disciples outside of ISKCON, but found that the only way that he could do that was to legally marry a prospective female disciple!

   6. …has given his “wife” a spiritual name.

   7. …has not allowed his “wife” to take initiation from a guru other than himself.

   8. …does not have enough spiritual potency to get his “wife” to chant 16 rounds.

   9. …does not follow the 4 regulative principles, and, obviously, neither does his “wife.”

   Why do I put “wife” in quotes? Because he does not have a husband-wife relationship in that there are no children being produced. Obviously they have an extremely abominable guru-disciple relationship which involves illicit sex between the guru and his disciple. This is like a teacher having sex with his student or a father having sex with his daughter. Extremely disgusting and abominable! Completely against even the lowest standards of Vedic principles.

   How do they avoid having children? Abortion as a backup for failed birth control?

   If you still want to associate with this lower-than-the-average-karmi rascal, then be my guest!

   By the way, any article submitted to the Sampradaya Sun which mentions http://rtvik.com/ is automatically banned! Why? Because, like Bhakta George said above, Rocana is not interested in the truth. He is only interested in his own name and fame.

   Reply
2. Puranjana dasa says:

   25. December 2012 at 3:38 pm

   Rocana once told me — “there has to be a living guru, because that is the tradition.” I said, “Fine, lets go drive over to your living guru’s house where we can hear from him and wash his feet.” Oooops, Rocana got angry with me for “challenging.” OK, guess what, he was bluffing, he has no living guru. He lied. His living guru has no living body, no living books, no living anything, like — no audio tapes, no photos, no temples, no devotees, no proof that this living guru exists at all.

   Apparently Rocana’s living guru has to be accepted by all of us as real and living, but there is not a shred of evidence this living guru exists, or ever did exist. Ever. Then George A Smith became an advocate and cheer leader for Rocana and he became the top writer for the phantasm non-existing living guru-ites, and he too has never given us the name, address etc of their alleged living guru.

   So, before we can discuss their living guru idea, we need to know — if this living guru actually exists, or is this yet another phantasmagoria brain bubble of the speculators? So, tell us who the living guru is, or admit, there is none, then we can progress from there. But persons saying or implying they are promoting a living guru, and they cannot name that guru, are clearly liars and bluffers. As for us not responding to Rocana, we have done that all along. We have analysed his statements repeatedly and he has never even tried to agree to my challenge to a pubic debate, ever. He refuses to debate, plain and simple, because we exposed his first lie, he has no living guru. That means he is the living guru folks, in case you cannot figure this out. ys pd

   Reply
3. Amar Puri says:

   25. December 2012 at 8:24 pm

   The followings are my email exchanges with Rocana dasa who refused to answer further when he has been challenged on his thesis DOR ;

   Respected Rocana Prabhu,

   PAMHO, AGTSP. Hare Krishna.

   Thank you very much for your kind mundane analytical approach attempting to answer my questions which you have ignored completely to address them and your elaboration on my writing duly challenging obviously your deceitful conclusion simply show how cleverly you are avoiding to answer the important issue of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada to which you only refuse to accept because of certain typo – error such as ” rittik” whereas it is quite understood to read as ” ritvik ” in the July 9th letter.

   If there is any other changed version you are referring to, you still have to prove it, Rocana Prabhu, because I can not find any other change except as you mentioned (His) at the end of the letter which is probably omitted as well due to photo copy as you suggested.

   Is that the reason you are rejecting the July 9th Letter which simply formalise the Initiation system which was already placed during the manifested lila of Srila Prabhupada ? Did you not witness it, Rocana Prabhu as a Sankirtana Leader ?

   All other objections such as Srila Prabhupada’s participation etc. you raised have already been answered in my various emails. What else your objections are Roacana Prabhu ?

   Why you can not accept Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions as it is ? Why are you so motivated to give your own interpretations in every instructions of Srila Prabhupada ? I ask you what level of a devotee are you to analyse Spiritual Instructions of Srila Prabhupada with your conditioned intelligence in the analytical approach to present your point of view which are totally bewildering without any meaning at all ?

   So what is your standing point in this regard. I simply submit these questions to you to kindly answer it, if you can or else as I suggest you in my previous email that you are a senior devotee of Srila Prabhupada and you can initiate as a Ritvik, Representative of Srila Prabhupada also to who so ever you see qualified candidate may approach you, and help spreading the mission of Srila Prabhupada. Where is the problem for you in doing that Prabhu ?

   Hope it finds you well, Prabhu. I look forward to hear your comments.

   Hari BOL.

   YS…… Amar Puri.

   -.-.-.-.-.-.

   Rocana’s email ;

   Dear Amar Puri,

   Obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

   What you sent in your last email is 99% rhetoric, 1% “argument”, and a
   very poor one, at that.

   As for the Puranjana page you refer us to, you really should improve the
   quality of the references you rely on. Nothing Puranjana writes has any
   believability at all. Even in providing a copy of the July 9th Letter, he
   fails. The copy on his webpage is changed text — it is not a true
   reproduction of the original letter, but is a changed version.

   Again, your effort to shore up Ritvik-vada fails.

   We’re not interested in a tit-for-tat back and forth with you. Either
   come with your next email offering a comprehensive rebuttal of DOR, or
   kindly consider this conversation concluded. You have provide zero in the
   way of cogent arguments. We’ve tried to engage with you, but it has
   proved to be a pointless exercise. You’ve shown that you’re not willing
   to do the work to comprehensively rebut our paper. You can only
   cherry-pick, relying on the weak arguments Rtvik-vadis hang their hats on.
   We consider it their tattva to be defeated.

   ys,
   Rocana dasa

   -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

   Dear Rocana Dasa Prabhu,

   PAMHO. AGTSP. Hare Krishna.

   Here below is my reply ;

   “Your entire Ritvik-vada is based upon the notion that the
   July 9th Letter instructs a post-samadhi ritvik diksa system. I say that
   it does not, therefore Ritvik-vada is false.” -Rocana

   My reply ; False. Our entire “Ritvik-vada” is based upon the notion that the July 9th Letter officially implements a Ritvik system of initiations within ISKCON. This system was set up by Srila Prabhupada while He was physiclaly still present ofcourse, but that fact alone cannot automatically limit the system to being effective only during His physical presence.

   “Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th Letter laid out a process in which he was to be a participant, living, in his body — send names TO HIM for his book.” -Rocana

   My reply ; Please show me where in the July 9th Letter it says that the names should be sent to “Him”. Allow me please to refresh your memmory:

   “The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace”s “Initiated Disciples” book.” – Excerpt, July 9th Letter

   Therefore, you have added to alter the meaning of the words “to Him, for His book” to best suit your agenda in your thesis DOR. Whereas the actual Letter only says “to be included in His book”. It never says plainly “to Him”. You will have to yet prove that adding names to His book required His physical presence. What kind of a misrepresentation is that, Prabhu ?

   “No. The system he instructed in that letter was clearly NOT intended for after his departure. His own presence in the system proves that.” – Rocana

   My reply ; This is based on your earlier statement that the names of the newly initiated disciples would be sent “to Him”, but as I have proved that the Letter said no such thing. Thus this is a strawman statement as it is based on a false pretense. I could not even imagine that a person of your status being a senior dedicated disciple of Srila Prabhupada would do such things.

   “the pure devotee’s instructions in the letter cannot be followed when he is no longer present to participate in a system THAT HE DESIGNED TO INCLUDE HIMSELF AS AN ACTIVE PARTICIPATION.” – Rocana

   My reply : Srila Prabhupada’s only involvement, according to you, was that the names of newly initiated disciples be sent to Him, but since the July 9th Letter said no such thing, we can discard the above statement of yours as well because you altered it to mislead the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada to make your point in order to simply cheat and misguide me. What a shame ? Why did you do that Prabhu ?

   “So who gave you permission, Amar Puri, to decide that the system will be changed upon his departure so that names get sent to someone else? Or not sent? Or whatever?” – Rocana

   My reply : We only argue that the names be sent exactly where the Letter orders them to be sent – to Srila Prabhupada’s Initiated Disciples book.

   Thus, with all due respect, Rocana Prabhu, I would like to return your questions back to you: From where do you get your concocted theory, and Who gave you permission to change the specific, explicit instructions of the Pure Devotee. ?????

   Looking forward to hear further from you. Hari BOL.

   Yours insignificant servant,

   Amar Puri.

   Reply
4. george a. smith says:

   27. December 2012 at 4:50 am

   Puranjana says:
   Apparently Rocana’s living guru has to be accepted by all of us as real and living, but there is not a shred of evidence this living guru exists, or ever did exist. Ever. Then George A Smith became an advocate and cheer leader for Rocana and he became the top writer for the phantasm non-existing living guru-ites, and he too has never given us the name, address etc of their alleged living guru.

   Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur says:
   “This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, ‘There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,’ is an atheistic opinion.”
   True Conception of Sri Guru Tattva”

   Which are we to believe, Puranjana, who claims that living guru is a phantasm, or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur who says that there is always a living guru and that anyone who says that there is not is an atheist?
   Place your bets.
   Question: Is betting on a sure thing gambling?
   I accept Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur statements to be true, as I am sure that all sincered disciples of Srila Prabhupada likewise do. If we draw the lines to connect the dots we see that Puranjana is mistaken and that he is speaking just like an atheist. This is not my conclusion but that of Bhaktisiddhanta and I am sorry, but no matter how much I like Puranjana, when his opinion in in conflict with those of any of our acaryas, our acaryas win hands down. I am sure that even Puranjana can see the logic in this, but if not then perhaps one of his god brothers recall to him that lovely dictum that Srila Prabhupada so often quoted to us. A fool is only visible when he opens his mouth.
   Purajanas presents to us a straw man argument in his example. What Rocana told him, is basically correct according to the quote offered above from him. Puranjanas straw man argument is that if you cannot present to him the living guru then that is proof that the living guru does not exist.
   Nowhere in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur statements above does he say that for a living guru to be alive that you must know where he is, or even who he is. Nowhere does he say that one has to know who the living guru is for such a one to be living in the world which is what Puranjana is proposing.
   King Herod did not know the precise location of baby Jesus when he sent out his soldiers in an attempt to kill him. Kamsa wanted to know the exact moment that baby Krsna would appear, so many people want to know where guru is, but not all are rishis, or wise men who come to worship him, many come to catch him, control him, torture him, maim him, poison him, kill him. So perhaps guru is not so stupid not to be telling Puranjana where he is. I mean, after all, what do we know of this Puranjana person, this person who preaches asidhanta, counter to the conclusions of and contrary to the truth as it is of guru tattva, preached to us straight from the lips of Srila Prabhupadas beloved and most worshipable spiritual mater Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur?
   Some people simply pretend to love someone they actually hate. What about this which I received in e-mail? If what follows is true everyone should run, not walk away as fast as they can from anywhere even near Puranjana dasa.
   “Srimukunda das:

   Your present stage of disillusionment came directly from the horror you experienced when you “pulled back the curtain” and saw for yourself the disgusting hypocrisy and corruption of Yasodanandana who you practically worshipped as your guru for ten years. Then you found his dishonorable connection to Puranjan, whose only “creds” are that Yasodanandana is his “brain”, and writes all the “brahminical sounding stuff” and then mixes it with Puranjan’s psychotic depraved rants and irrational condemnation of (pretty much) anyone and everyone but himself.

   So, you found out about Tatva Darshan, who is internationally listed on an Interpol site warning of pedophiles, and that Yasoda “covers up” for Tatva Darshan, even though he is even now a practicing child molester, because Tatva Darshan is doing “good service” for the “ritvik” cause and deserves the (spiritually) “blind support” of the HKS.

   That was more than you could “choke down”!….and you confronted those two pedophile protectors with the HONEST TRUTH that you had discovered about them “covering up” a known child molester (who was JUST OUT OF PRISON), simply because he was part of their Hare Krishna Society, which was a “splinter group” founded with the express purpose of DESTROYING ALL THE WORK THAT SP DID FOR TEN YEARS!

   When you confronted Puranjan and Yasodanandana, they went “viral” on you and began to post all sorts of outrageous lies about you in the attempt to destroy your credibility when you “came out” and exposed them for their totally corrupted behavior in regards to Tatva Darshan, but you found out from Haldhar das that they were engaged in illegal money laundering “laundering” “black money” from India to the USA. And then you found out (also from Haldhar) that Puranjan was working with the Indian CID (Secret Service) to conspire to CLOSE ALL OF SRILA PRABHUPADA’S TEMPLES IN THE SUBCONTINENT OF INDIA! (All Puranjana was actually able to do was to get the Chaitanya Charitamrita “banned” in the State of Gujarat)

   So what big “thrusting force” was setting” Puranjan “on fire” to undertake this ghastly betrayal of His (supposed) Spiritual Master SP?…

   (Why has he dedicated his whole adult life to WORKING AGAINST SP in every way possible, while posing as the “GREATEST” disciple that SP ever initiated?)

   The answer takes us back to 1976, when Puranjan had created a little “club” to discuss the “intimate pastimes” of Radharani and the Gopis. He called it the “Gopi Bhava Club” and it admitted over a dozen “secret” members.

   When SP was told about this “Gopi Bhava Club”, he was livid with rage, and ordered each and every one of the “members” of Puranjan’s “secret” club into His Presence at the Los Angeles “New Dwarka” Temple.

   Each member came to see SP, and each member gasped with shame when they understood that they had indulged in a Maha Aparadh against of Radha and Krishna. Each of them fell to the floor and wept as they offered their prostrated obeisances, begging SP for his Forgiveness.

   Then, Puranjan (The “ringleader”) came in, and received a “scorching” denouncement by SP. But Puranjan was different than the rest…..HE ACTUALLY TOLD SP TO HIS FACE THAT HE, “SP” WAS WRONG AND THAT HE, PURANJAN WAS RIGHT! (He actually “scolded” SP!)

   Up to that time, there had only been two (or at the most three) incidences of an initiated disciple of SP OPENLY DEFYING SP, Which heretofore resulted in the “defiant” devotee either being expelled, or leaving in a rage from SP’s Presence and Movement.

   Puranjan LEFT HIS “darshan” of SP IN A RAGE, and did not offer obeisances as he left (as well). The next day, he “turned up missing” and left no clue or message as to his destination after “blooping” in the very presence of SP.

   On top of that, Puranjan was the manager of the Spanish BBT, (under Hridayananda Swami) and he quit his post without a word! (He did not even show up to explain that he was leaving that Service of Publishing SP’s books which was so Dear to SP).

   Not only did Puranjan (dramatically) “bloop” but HE NEVER SPOKE TO SP AGAIN, AND AVOIDED ISKCON UNTIL SP WAS “SAFELY DEAD AND GONE”!

   After the “gurus” established themselves in the style of “buffoons” around the world, Puranjan was “fishing” for the chance to become the Iskcon guru of Ireland….He was rejected for that post, and continued to serve Jayatirtha and Bhagavan until they found that they no longer had any use for him at all, and then he “blooped” from Iskcon once again.

   You (Srimukundq) realized that Puranjan was motivated by the desire for REVENGE against SP for not admitting that he Puranjan was “right” and that He…SP was “wrong”!…..So he started PADA in a style that would FOOL all the unhappy exfoliated devotees of Iskocn into FALSELY BELIEVING THAT PURANJAN WAS “STANDING UP” FOR SP, when in fact, PURANJAN’S “WHITE-HOT NARCISSISTIC RAGE” was now engaged in a “Grand Plan” to bring SP to “His knees” in a way that would FORCE SP to admit that Purankan was “right” and that the PURE DEVOTEE OF THE LORD, was “wrong”!

   So, Puranjan’s PADA has NEVER tried to build anything such as a temple, nor has Puranjan initiated EVEN ONE devotee in a “ritvik” ceremony,nor does Puranjan bother with Japa, Mangal Arotic, what to speak of reading his “enemy” SP’s BOOKS!

   So you, Srimukunda, found out ALL OF THESE HIDEOUS secrets of Yasodanandana, Puranjan, as well as Damaghosh that they were confident that they could lie about and “hide” until YOU came along and “ripped aside” their “artfully” arranged “veil” and saw the “stench of corruption” within their activities and their unclean hearts.

   This was HARD for you, Srimukunda, because YOU HAD SPENT TEN YEARS OF YOUR LIFE SLAVING FOR YASODANANDANA AS THE SECRETARY OF YASODA’S HARE KRISHNA SOCIETY!….Both Yasoda, Puranjan, and Damagosh USED YOU for their “secret affairs” but NEVER EVEN “LET ON” what they were doing, as they KNEW that you would want to “expose” them the minute that you found out!

   So, when you “OUTED THEM” they repaid your ten years of faithful heartfelt service by BURYIJG YOU UNDER WRITTEN AND VERBAL “FILTH”!

   The problem is, that in your disgust at the child molestations in ISKCON and the molestation of one dear to you in New Dwarka, you JOINED THOSE TWO CORRUPT CONSPIRATORS AGAINST SP out of REVENGE AGAINST THE CHILD MOLESTERS, not out of Love for SP or love for Radha and Krishna.

   You eagerly followed these two men FILLED WITH HATE, as their “hatred” seemed so “RIGHT” when you joined them.

   You had no idea that these two were actually DECLARED ENEMIES OF SP!….(Puranjan for never getting over SP daring to say that He, SP was right, and that then the insulted and angry Puranjan chastised and told that what he did was WRONG from SP’s OWN LOTUS MOUTH!

   Puranjan could never forgive SP for this insult to Puranjan’s “psychotic superiority complex” based on clinical Narcissism.

   Yasoda, on the other hand, fancied himself as “SP’s “only true disciple” and that when SP told him and Guru Kripa that the leaders of Iskcon were not to be trusted, Yasodanandana took that to mean that he, Yasodanandana Swami was being “ordained” by SP as the NEXT FOUNDER ACHARYA OF YASODA’S “ISKCON REPLACEMNT” namely, the Hare Krishna Society that Yasodanandana runs with a completely dominating control of all his “centers”…..with no resemblance at all of SP’s Causless Mercy in running Iskcon for the highest purpose and utilizing the highest Principles.

   So, Srimukunda, your eyes were opened, and you could see those two “buffoons” as “Tweedle Dum” and “Tweedle Dee”! (or twiddle “dummer”?)

   So you joined those two out of hatred of Iskcon, and then you found out that they HATED SP as “competition” to their desire to DESTROY SP’S PERSONAL BODY, “ISKCON” and replace ISKCON with stupid little HKS “living room” gatherings as THEIR way of showing contempt for SP.

   Because you joined HKS out of HATRED, and because when you took initiation from your bogus “guru” Yasodanandana it was OUT OF HATRED, and you have now extended your hatred to Krishna’s Direct Representative….SRILA PRABHUPADA!

   So, you have now turned your ENTIRE RAGE against SP, your SAVIOR!

   (That is “what you get” for dedicating your life to destroying ISKCON and working against the Mission of SP!)

   You have now reached “HATRED’S END”…..Will you finally learn to LOVE, or will you follow your fallen and offensive “gurus” Puranjan and Yasoda down to their next “ripely deserved” Hellish Birh after being harshly judged in the Court of YAMARAJA!

   You have been my friend, and I would like to help you, but your HATRED OF SP simply has to go. There is no room in the realm of Higher Consciousness for such Hatred of the Pure Devotee of the Lord.”
   statements Does that mean that baby Jesus did not exist? By Puranjanas warped and twisted reasoning; yes, but Puranjana das’s contention that one must know who the living guru is for him to live is just plain stupid and silly. Did the Gaudiya Math following Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakurs disappearance know who the sad guru was? No. Did that stop Srila Prabhupada from being alive?

   Reply
5. Puranjana dasa says:

   27. December 2012 at 5:59 am

   OK well its seems George A. Smith is getting testy now, like like Rocana does when we asked him where his living guru is, because he cannot identify his living guru. OK they have none, its a lie, its a bluff, their living guru has no name, no books, no address, no photos, no books, but he exists, ok he might be the tooth fairy for all we know. So Srila Prabhupada says a person who cannot identify their guru is an atheist. Why should I waste time arguing with an atheist who cannot even identify their so-called living guru? Yes, there may be one somewhere, and there may be Mayan gold in a sunken ship, but if you cannot identify, its phantasm.

   We told you all along, Rocana and his top disciple George A. Smith cannot identify their living gurus, and look what happens when you ask, they get all testy and hostile …. ummm, because we exposed that their guru program is a total bluff. Now George is also saying someone could argue with Prabhupada, and two days later land in England and be welcomed there by Jayatirtha, because Srila Prabhupada’s policy was to allow people who argued with him to be welcome everywhere. No, people who argued had to repent or leave. Incidently, Hari Sauri’s book says we rectified and apologized, even the GBC knows they could not say that people who argue were still welcome, they know that was not the policy of HDG. Anyway George is right, me and Sulochana were called bogus gopis, that is why Sulochan said, we are the ones who fought with the GBC, people who wear saris are the worst fighters around, hah hah. Anway all of the above was written by NNV, so George A. Smith is working with that program, …. and NNV has about as much credibility as, …. Rocana? ys pd

   Reply
6. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

   27. December 2012 at 12:01 pm

   Dear Bhakta George, it seems that you are yet another rascal who tries to puff himself up by putting everyone else down. Is there even one disciple/follower of Srila Prabhupada whom you respect?

   According to:

   http://www.purebhakti.com/events/bhakti-news-mainmenu-65/624-the-true-conception-of-sri-guru-tattva.html

   …”True Conception of Sri Guru Tattva” was not written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, as you claim, but was written by BV Narayana Maharaja, who is infamous for writing/speaking offensive nonsense.

   It’s common knowledge that there are huge gaps in the disciplic succession. I think that you, therefore, owe Puranjana Prabhu an apology.

   Reply
7. Jay says:

   27. December 2012 at 12:07 pm

   Dear George Prabhu

   Yes, you need a “living guru”, and Srila Prabhupada is that guru because he lives! Srila Prabhupada does not teach, however, that such a living guru needs to be physically present. For evidence of this, see: http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/tfo.htm#PhysicallyPresent

   Srila Prabhupada addresses the question of “living guru” here:

   Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to do without the help of a Spiritual Master. To reach the spiritual sky through believing the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

   Srila Prabhupada: I don’t follow.

   Tamala Krishna: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus”s words, reach the …

   Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master.

   Madhudvisa: I WAS REFERRING TO A LIVING SPIRITUAL MASTER

   Srila Prabhupada: SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT QUESTION OF … SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ETERNAL…so your question is “without Spiritual Master”. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible”, when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ.
   (SP Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

   Reply
8. Mahesh Raja says:

   27. December 2012 at 1:34 pm

   All those who want to replace Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT Diksa Guru are described here:

   Bg 16.4 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures

   dambho darpo ‘bhimanas ca
   krodhah parusyam eva ca
   ajnanam cabhijatasya
   partha sampadam asurim

   SYNONYMS

   dambhah–pride; darpah–arrogance; abhimanah–conceit; ca–and; krodhah–anger; parusyam–harshness; eva–certainly; ca–and; ajnanam–ignorance; ca–and; abhijatasya–one who is born of; partha–O son of Prtha; sampadam–nature; asurim–demoniac.

   TRANSLATION

   Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance–these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.

   PURPORT

   In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities.

   Reply
9. Puranjana dasa says:

   27. December 2012 at 3:45 pm

   Oh oh, and George’s hero writer Narayana Maharaja was the person who was sitting around with all the GBC leaders like Tamal, giving them rasika classes, while all kinds of crimes were going on, and he said I was “ritvik poison” when I was complaining about all these crimes going on. It appears that George A. Smith is simply another advocate / defender / cover up / cheer leader of this agenda. No wonder they do not like us, we exposed their bogus living guru program, and its criminal underbelly. ys pd

   Reply
10. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    27. December 2012 at 6:19 pm

    What to do? Prabhupada says, see below, there are Vaishnavas who are unable to come to the level of realization that a bona fide spiritual master is fully present in his instructions. They are kind of obsessed to have a living guru even at the cost to again and again and again having to replace.

    Prabhupada, August 16, 1976, Bombay: “And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya.”

    Only problem, in the meantime after so many fall downs of “as good as God acaryas” and those fallen ones piling up in the backyard by a mile, people in general reject and walk away. And those deluded supporters of the temporary acarya project comment, what you want, main thing is, we own so many nice marble temples?

    So they cannot grasp that by claiming ownership over buildings, this simply is creating dissension amongst ourself.

    Prabhupada, September 19, 1975, Vrindavan: Then I understood that he (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja) is giving more stress on books. “Sell the marbles and publish book instead of creating dissension amongst ourself.”

    Reply
11. Amar Puri says:

    27. December 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Yes it is very true, Rukmini ramana dd. that Srila Bhaktisiddhanata Maharaja as quoted above by you as well as our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada both stress same on books distributions.

    Here is the quote from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada explains in his Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.8 in Los Angeles on 5th January, 1974;

    There is no comparison. There is no competition. Every word is for the good of the human society. Every word, each and every word. Therefore, we stress so much in the book distribution. Somehow or other if the book goes in one hand, he will be benefited. At least he will see,
    “ Oh, they have taken so much price. Let me see what is there. If he reads one sloka, his life will be successful. If one sloka, one word. This is such nice things. Therefore we are stressing so much, “Please distribute book, distribute book, distribute book.” A greater mrdanaga. We are chanting, playing our mrdanaga. It is heard within this room or little more. But this mrdanga will go home to home, country to country, community to community, this mrdanga.

    In his lecture above, Srila Prabhupada repeats three times distribute book which means it is the paramount necessity to initiate people into the KC. by distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books also known as a greater Mrdanaga which will go home to home, country to country, community to community to INITIATE people into Hari Nama Sankirtana movement on this planet earth.

    Reply
12. Amar Puri says:

    27. December 2012 at 9:16 pm

    No doubt that there are so much misleading going around. People are using unauthorized quotes to make their own respective point of view. This is very dangerous point. Thousands of people are misled thinking that the quotes are authorized coming from the previous bona fide Acarayas.

    The same very quote presented by George A Smith making his point which is totally misleading to believe that it is a bona fide quote simply because he used Srila Bhaktisidhanta Gosvami Thakur name which led to believe us that it is an authorized quote but it was not so as brought out by Shriman Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu. So this way there are so much misleading is going around.

    Make no mistake, there are good people such as Shriman Mahesh Raja, Rukmini Ramana dd, Shriman Pratyatosa dasa to name a few who are out there to render selfless service in the mission of Srila Prabhupada ki Jaya.

    Reply
13. Puranjana dasa says:

    27. December 2012 at 11:45 pm

    Actually in 1986 Rocana was part of the 50 man committee to “reform the gurus,” and how did you guess, Satsvarupa wrote in his “Guru Reform Notebook” that Narayana Maharaja was being consulted in that reform effort. I think its obvious by now that that George A Smith is part of that faction, since he was the biggest cheer leader of the big “guru reformer” Rocana, and now we find George is citing the other big shot of the guru reformers, namely NM, and their whole living guru idea is exactly that of the NM and GBC camps.

    In other words, these people have always had one foot in the Gaudiya Matha’s and GBC’s gurus camps and tried to pretend they had one foot in our Prabhupadanuga idea, but they never left that camp.

    Incidently, the first thing these reformers did when they took power in March of 1986 was to reinstate Bhavananda and excommunicate Sulochana, and of course everyone knew I was working with Sulochana. Sulochana was thus assassinated just a few months later, May 22 1986.

    Nice reform there!

    And then by 1988 NM was now the official gopi rasika acharya of the GBC. So this is all connected. No wonder all of these people have sour grapes for our process, they failed to reform the GBC gurus, their excommunion of us simply ended up with their having New Vrndavana raided by the police, they failed to keep NM in the post of living guru since he is now dead, and some of their big sannyasas have been in trouble for falling down while others are covering it up, which means they are GBC part 2, and they are simply angry that we have been exposing them.

    Anyway, if there is a living guru somewhere, let us know who he is and we can study his qualities. To simply imply that there is a pure devotee around somewhere waiting to enter your door is very egotistical, to say the least. “The pure devotee is coming here to meet me,” hah hah, total ego tripping. Maybe Jesus is not going to come again just to get you out of your house while you are playing video games, just saying! ys pd

    Reply
14. Kurma says:

    28. December 2012 at 12:24 am

    I had very similar exchanges with Rocana, I still have the emails filed. Rocana 1) Called me a liar. 2) Made exactly the same statement he did to George about his length of time to respond eg: (Rocana) … “Sorry to be so long in responding. We are, as usual, completely swamped…. 3) Banned me from writing at his site because my opinions did not fit his ideological views regarding guru.
    Rocana behaves similar to the media owner Rupert Murdoch and that small section of society that owns the means of production, distribution, exchange and communication. The greater the concentration of wealth the greater the power and the greater the control of media the greater the power, this is evident from what recently occurred in regard to Rupert Murdoch in Britain.
    In this regard we can see that Rocana behaves in a similar manner, because the same points raised by George repeat themselves in others dealings ad nauseum !!
    Taking direct action is the best way to deal with tyrants like Rocana, print pamphlets, and use the social media to demonstrate against the Rocana’s and Rupert Murdochs of this world.
    One rat bag radio presenter was recently brought down to earth here in Australia, by a simple facebook protest page !

    Reply
15. george a. smith says:

    30. December 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Dear Rukmini Ramana dd

    In your comments you say:

    ” What to do? Prabhupada says, see below, there are Vaishnavas who are unable to come to the level of realization that a bona fide spiritual master is fully present in his instructions. They are kind of obsessed to have a living guru even at the cost to again and again and again having to replace.”

    I agree with both of your statements here entirely and in respect to the second; people are getting initiated and re-initiated as many as four or five times. It is definitely a species of insanity and is also completely against religious principles. The sastra says:

    sri-nanda-nandanah krishnah
    sarva-deva-siro-manih
    padambujaika-bhag eka-
    diksha prokta manishibhih

    “Lord Krishna, the son of Nanda, is the crest jewel of all Deities. One should worship His lotus feet alone. One time only should one accept initiation to the worship of His lotus feet. This is said by the wise.”
    (Sri Sanatkumara-samhita)

    In respect to the remainder of your post and with emphasis on the portion wherein you have empasised the importance of the desemination of Srila Prabhupadas transcendental literatures, Srila Prabhupada places knowledge gained from his books over the value of formal initiation:

    “Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge… knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Press Interview, October 16, 1976, Chandigarh)

    Lastly, in respect with your first statement to which I have already agreed, might I please add that Srila Prabhupadas books offer an interactive learning and teaching opportunity. As your statement infers, Srila Prabhupadas words are not dead letters running across the page but living things, each one infused with his eternal presence. So it is that when a devotee reads them Srila Prabhupada is right there with you, as is Krsna the Supreme personality of Godhead giving you the ability to understand the words of His pure devotee Srila Prabhupada and from such understanding the knowledge by which we may come to Him.

    But as you say:

    “What to do? Prabhupada says, see below, there are Vaishnavas who are unable to come to the level of realization that a bona fide spiritual master is fully present in his instructions.”

    Might I suggest that as a partial solution that you just explain this point to them again and again. Repitition, they say, is the grate convincer. Then perhaps their faith in Srila Prabhupada will increase and there dependence upon initiation, which Srila Prabhupada speaks of as being a mere formality (however you wish to conduct it, via either the Rtvik fashion or that employed traditionally will decrease, and then perhaps one day that hoped for realization that you speak of will dawn in their hearts to take the place of the ignorance of belief.

    Your post was a delight. I thank you for it. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    Hare Krsna
    Ys
    Bhakta George

    Reply
16. george a. smith says:

    30. December 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Dear Kurma prabhu (not the chef)

    It is a great pleasure to see you again prabhu, (figuratively speaking that is). Long had I missed your regular almost day to day postings upon the Sun before I too became fed up with that self professed champion of free speech Rocana dasa and stopped writing for him the type of articles that he wanted from me.

    I am sorry but I do not know who Rupert Murdoch is, but if you are saying that Rocana dasa sees himself as a member of some kind of elite group within the devotional community then sadly, I must agree, and though he has many good qualities. I think that his lack of commonality with the rest of us spoils it for him. Just like a whole bucket of milk can be soured by a single drop of urine, Rocana das’s lack of any real humility spoils it for him. And his “looking back with longing” to an era of corruption at anything other than Srila Prabhupadas and his godbrothers and godsisters glories is quite intolerable. I will never consider him to be qualified to lead until first he truly thinks of himself as being the straw beneath his godbrothers and godsisters lotus feet.

    But anyway, it is good to see you again prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Hari bol.
    Ys
    George A. Smith

    Reply
17. george a. smith says:

    30. December 2012 at 1:12 pm

    Dear Jay prabhu

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention:

    Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to do without the help of a Spiritual Master. To reach the spiritual sky through believing the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

    Srila Prabhupada: I don’t follow.

    Tamala Krishna: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus”s words, reach the …

    Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master. How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without Spiritual Master.

    Madhudvisa: I WAS REFERRING TO A LIVING SPIRITUAL MASTER

    Srila Prabhupada: SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT QUESTION OF … SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ETERNAL…so your question is “without Spiritual Master”. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible”, when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ.
    (SP Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

    Jay prabhu, this to my mind, is the very conversation and the words of Srila Prabhupada upon which the entire acceptance of Rtvik initiation as a bona fide practice of initiation hinges.
    It is also the exact same thing quote that I presented to Rocana dasa over four years ago along with my assurances to him that because the Rtviks had this that he would never be able to defeat them. Thank you very much for bringing it up again prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Hare Krsna
    George A. Smith

    Reply
18. george a. smith says:

    30. December 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Amar prabhu

    You have written several responses on this thread which was begun by someone posting my e-mail up as a topic on this forum, something that I did not request and yet expected. As you were the first serious respondent to the thread, I should have answered you first instead of launching into an immediate counter attack against Putana das. Be that as it may, I would like to apologize for not replying to you first and to now respond to at least some of your remarks, although not necessarily in the order that you have made them in and not necessarily always in relation to your responses to me.

    Firstly I would like to respond to your to your mention of the lecture by Srila Prabhupada given in 1974 Jan. 5th. . in your comments to Rukmini ramana dd.

    Thank you for providing us with such an inspiring quotation from Srila PrabhupadasSB 1.16.8 SB lecture from L.A. CA.. So many times I have looked to that same quote to bolster up my spirits it, knowing that even if I did not have the spiritual strength to get someone to accept a book that if only I could get them to read one word, one sentence or gaze at the smiling face or say the name of Krsna just once that I shall have helped them, by Srila Prabhupadas mercy, to make their whole lives a success.
    There is some other things in the lecture that are much much more sobering. L.A. happens to be my old stomping ground which is why I have always had a perhaps overly keen interest in both the goings on there, both in respect to “the happenings” and to Srila Prabhupadas pastimes there, Although I was not personally present when Srila Prabhupada gave this lecture, one of my friends was who recounted it to me. Srila Prabhupadas words that day changed my life:
    In his lecture Srila Prabhupada said:
    If you take your birth in the house of Vaiṣṇava brāhmaṇa, just like these children are taking birth, father and mother Vaiṣṇava… They are very fortunate. They are not ordinary children. Otherwise they would not have gotten this chance of chanting and dancing before Deity and Vaiṣṇava. They are not ordinary children. The parent must take care, very good care, that they may not fall down. They have got the chance. Now train them to complete this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the duty of father and mother. “Now this child has come under my care.” If both the father and mother think like that… Not contraceptive. Oh, rascaldom. “Oh, here is a child who has taken shelter of me as mother, who has taken shelter of me as father. Oh, it is my duty to train him in such a way that no more birth, no more death.” Therefore Bhāgavata says, pitā na sa syāt…na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum: “One should not become mother, one should not become father, if he cannot release his children from the clutches of death.” And how one can be saved from the clutches of death? This is the process, hari-līlāmṛtaṁ vacaḥ. If he is trained up… Therefore we have got this school from the Dallas. From the beginning, hari-līlāmṛtaṁ vacaḥ. They are being trained up in hari-līlāmṛtaṁ vacaḥ.

    ■Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.8 — Los Angeles, January 5, 1974
    At the time when I first read this I was a member of your society and was living in a temple attached to which was a guru-kula, the children of which were all of them little girls. Included among them was the child of Rocana dasas’s first marriage. Regarding the children through the eyes of Srila Prabhupadas words I considered them to be very fortunate indeed, but by material standards they were also underpriveledged. I had not however recognized at this time what else they were lacking in, which was in parental affection and also that they were sometimes being mistreated and even abused, although I twice walked in on a scene that would be considered abusive by todays standards and once upon a scene in which some horrible woman was downstairs in the basement trying to lock up a child in a darkened cellar. This later scene pissed me off and although it was not my place as a bhramachari and I think that the woman was the wife of some big wig, I scared the Hell out of her and she released the child immediately. In later years I was to learn that they had abused children in this way regularly after I had left. It was a very sad thing and I wish I had not been so young and dumb at the time and understood more so that I might have made a difference in all those special little persons lives. When I heard much later in my life what had happened to them, which was basically that they their guru-kula had been closed and then that they were shuffled round and disregarded until they just disappeared the tragedy of it broke my hearts. Strangely however, when I tried to discuss this with Rocana dasa, at whose temple this had all occurred and sent him an e-mail telling him that if his guru-kuli teachers were telling him that no abuse had occurred that they were lieing to him, he never replied to me.
    After I had heard of what happened to the guru-kulis and I then heard that old ******* NarayanaMaharaja blaming the children for the abuse that they had been subjected to, blaming the victims for the primes committed against them in other words and saying that they had actually gotten less punishment than they had actually deserved and then his adding to that what amounted to a “they better set down and shut up complaining” or that they’d get more” I really got pissed and spent the next several years of my life dedicating myself to making his miserable by telling the world what I thought of him in my articles and thus frustrating what I considered to be his hopes and dreams of taking over ISKCON.
    Oh, but how Srila Prabhupadas lecture changed my life is that I did not think at the time that I could promise any children that I had that I could take them back home, back to godhead, and so I never had any children after that.
    Amar Prabhu, as I mentioned there were some other things from your posts that I woulod like to comment on but alas, time waits for no man and as yet today I havn’t got a single round chanted or done half of the million things I have to still do, so I hope that you will forgive me if I continue this another time.
    All glories to Srila Prabhupada
    Hare Krsna
    Bhakta George

    Reply
19. Puranjana dasa says:

    30. December 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Madhudvisa: I WAS REFERRING TO A LIVING SPIRITUAL MASTER

    Srila Prabhupada: SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT QUESTION OF … SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ETERNAL…so your question is “without Spiritual Master”. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible”, when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ.
    (SP Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

    Jay prabhu, this to my mind, is the very conversation and the words of Srila Prabhupada upon which the entire acceptance of Rtvik initiation as a bona fide practice of initiation hinges. It is also the exact same thing quote that I presented to Rocana dasa over four years ago along with my assurances to him that because the Rtviks had this that he would never be able to defeat them. Thank you very much for bringing it up again prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Hare Krsna
    George A. Smith

    =========================

    PD: OK, but this is merely one out of several thousands of quotes we have used over the years, for example: The spiritual master must be a resident of Krishna loka; The spiritual master must be an uttama adhikary; The spiritual master takes the karma of the disciples (like Jesus does); The spiritual master is a manifestation of Krishna’s mercy; I will live forever from my books; Do not change anything; You are all puppy brains; You are not qualified for sannyasa; Do not duplicate the Gaudiya Matha bogus gurus; Do not consult with the Gaudiya Matha; Do not imitate the guru; When I am gone there will only be managers and not successors; The May tape, The July 9th letter; The 1977 conversations (which were hidden); The letters (which were hidden); The will (which was hidden) and so on — ad infinitum.

    We do not hang our whole position on one statement, one letter, or one anything, we can apply probably a thousand, actually many thousands, of statements from Srila Prabhupada to prove our point.

    To say we rely on one single statement or document is simply — false, all of the statements and documents corroborate each other. At the same time, it is also correct to say Rocana cannot defeat even this one citation, since he cannot defeat anything by his promoting an alleged “living guru in the tradition” that has no actual existence. He does not even have counterfeit money, he has not even have monopoly game money, he has not identified his living guru ever, ok and since he has none, he is promoting the worship of nothingness and no one. He is a mayavada. ys pd

    Reply
20. geoge a. smith says:

    31. December 2012 at 5:13 pm

    Counter to the claims made by Amar Puri, no proof has been submitted at all to the claim that the quote that I used was unauthorized.

    “This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, ‘There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future’, is an atheistic opinion.”
    Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur says

    Amar makes the following unsubstantiated claim:

    “The same very quote presented by George A Smith making his point which is totally misleading to believe that it is a bona fide quote simply because he used Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Gosvami Thakur name which led to believe us that it is an authorized quote but it was not so as brought out by Shriman Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu. So this way there are so much misleading is going around”

    I cannot decide if the terminology that Amar Puri prabhu used is just trying to make brownie points with Pratyatosa in his response above and deliberately intended to mislead us into thinking that “Shriman” Pratyatosa, or anyone else who had disputed the authenticity of the quote that I had used from Bhaktisiddhanta in my e-mail beginning to expose Puranjana, had in actuality shown or proven he quote to be unauthentic.

    Regardless, if one bothers to examine the subsequent replies to my use of the quote on this thread one will find that no proof as to the truth of the claims made that they quote was not authentic have been as yet offered.

    Whether or not the quote attributed to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvatti Thakur was, or was not one that can be attributed to him, that the point of it had already been accepted by the Rtviks, upon which one of their sites I first encountered it in an abbreviated form. That the point of it at least was accepted by the Rtviks as being authentic, is evidenced by this 2003 web site posting in which they reply to Narayana Maharajas use of it:

    Narayana Maharaja Confused About Ritvik (Part 2)

    “To say, ‘There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future”, is an atheistic opinion.”

    The Rtvik answer as follows; accepting the point to be valid guru-tattva, regardless of whoever authored it:
    Of course no one, except NM’s imagination has proposed such a thing. The position of TFO relates only to what Srila Prabhupada ordained for ISKCON, not what may or may not happen in every nook or cranny of the planet from now till the end of time.

    Here is the web link so that you can check it out for yourself.

    http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/NM_Confused_2.htm

    In the above comment made by a Rtvik the claim made by either Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur or Narayana Maharaja is accepted to be true. The authorship is not even introduced as being a factor, the Rtvik accepts the point being made as being an eternal principle of guru tattva, and something that he (or she) does not consider to be at odds at all with the Rtvik proposition.

    Reply
21. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    31. December 2012 at 6:57 pm

    geoge a. smith says: Counter to the claims made by Amar Puri, no proof has been submitted at all to the claim that the quote that I used was unauthorized.

    Dear Bhakta George, you tried to shove an untrue, offensive quote down our collective throats by attributing it to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja instead of the actual author: BV Narayana Maharaja. Why not take the humble position and admit that you made a mistake? Otherwise, the only thing that we can assume is that it was a premeditated, deliberate deception.

    Reply
22. Amar Puri says:

    31. December 2012 at 8:49 pm

    Dear George Prabhu,

    Hare Krishna. AGTSP. PAMHO.

    First of all the quote is not coming directly from SBSST Maharaja as it seems and you happen to believe in it. It is coming from NM’s writing. Is it not TRUE ? You have to prove that the quote indeed comes from SBSST to make it authenticated. As you wrote in your message ; ““This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, ‘There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future’, is an atheistic opinion.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur says.

    To further answer the quote of NM when I said that it is not a bona fide quote because NM writings are not accepted as an authority because of his own personal lacking of the credibility as we all know it.
    However giving the benefit of doubt to George Prabhu, if it is so authorized and accepted by others, still it does not prove any substantial proof that Srila Prabhupada VANI and His Instructions are less potent than the living guru as the quote seems to indicate.

    Here is what Srila Prabhupada says in this connection ; “ Srila Prabhupada: SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT QUESTION OF … SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ETERNAL…so your question is “without Spiritual Master”. Without Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible”, when you read Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. (SP Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68).

    Thus Srila Prabhupada is present through his VANI and accepted by His sincere and serious followers regardless all over the world. Is that NOT a FACT, George Prabhu ? So what and where is the importance of such quote ?

    Moreover NM quotes are not authoritative rather it can be very misleading to many neophyte new comers who lack and limit knowledge to know the difference between the gurus and such quote intends to direct the new comers towards any living gurus whether or not authorized in the disciplic succession. That is the big problem with full of confusion and the game of CHEATINGS and the Cheaters take place.

    Hope it meets you well, Prabhu.

    Hari BOL….

    YS….. Amar Puri.

    Reply
23. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    31. December 2012 at 11:37 pm

    geoge a. smith says: Here is the web link so that you can check it out for yourself. http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/NM_Confused_2.htm

    Why play guessing games, Bhakta George? What exactly, on that web page, are you referring to?

    Reply
24. Puranjana dasa says:

    1. January 2013 at 12:36 am

    Right, George A. Smith needs to first of all admit he is not paying attention to “who” factually authored the documents he is citing. That means he needs to step back and re-asses his whole series of proclamations, based on fraudulent assumptions.

    Then he says the IRM and Krishna Kanta accepted the non-substantiated quote he gave (wherever it allegedly came from) herein:

    [“Of course no one, except NM’s imagination has proposed such a thing. The position of TFO relates only to what Srila Prabhupada ordained for ISKCON, not what may or may not happen in every nook or cranny of the planet from now till the end of time.”]

    OK this is not an acceptance speech? Rather this is a declaration that the citation is “imagination” — this is not any form of acceptance of the validity of the quote? Krishna Kanta says we are only interested in what Srila Prabhupada says and not other sources of documents. That means he rejected that citation.

    Anyway KK is correct, we ONLY rely on Srila Prabhupda.

    He says there are often gaps in the parampara. Not only that, Krishna Himself says the guru chain becomes lost over time and thus HE has to re-appear YUGE YUGE, in order to patch these gaps up. That means the gaps process is eternally going on. Therefore Srila Prabhupada says when there is a gap, we must worship the last link. And that is what we are doing. To say that Krishna has no idea what He is talking about when He says there are gaps — and He has to re-appear Yuge Yuge, is a direct countermanding of the DIRECT STATEMENTS of GOD ALMIGHTY. This is called atheism. I am not surprised NM is countermanding this process at all.

    Meanwhile, Locanananda, Rocana, and many of these living guru -ites are now simply refusing to name their alleged current link, because we have already exposed all their previous links as frauds, and could therefore link another name they might come up with as a co-supporter of the fraudulent process, hence they now promote the worship of their no-named, no-bodied, non-existing, no books, no temples, no devotees, truly phantasm, “living person,” to avoid the question.

    In other words, they are cheaters, bluffers and mayavadas, and always have been. They are simply wolves who have been putting on sheep’s clothing to try to fool us. and they maybe did for awhile, but their teeth are now showing and their sheep’s outfit is falling off. ys pd

    Reply
25. george a. smith says:

    1. January 2013 at 6:58 pm

    What a circus act.

    Amar, you can obfuscate all you want. The point I made was that you made a claim that was untrue, no matter how much you want to confuse the issue neither of your pals had proven or shown that the quote used by Narayana Maharaja was unauthentic.

    No one has proved that Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur didn’t make the statement, and, as it is in accord with guru-tattva, as Srila Prabhupada taught it, I am really not caring whoever actually authored it.

    Why you do not seem to be able to grasp is that the authorship of the quote is irrelevant since the rtviks have already accepted the point that it was making in respect to there always being a living guru to be true.

    The point that I made in my last post was that the Rtviks had accepted the point of the quote, that it was reflective of the truth of guru tattva, which is that there is always a living guru.

    What I’m curious about is whether you have changed your minds and no longer accept the point as being true?

    And if not, and if your always changing your minds back and forth in regards to major points in guru-tattva, Krsna tattva, etc, wouldn’t it make far better sense for those people interested in Krsna consciousness to just continue to follow the traditional model instead of this Christian counterfeit that you are trying to foist off onto everyone? I mean, maybe we should just wait until it’s all gelled and your no longer waffling back and forth between major points of siddhanta, what’s say we hold off about 500 years or so, which is the time it took approximately for Christianity to reach that point. I mean, since your following the Christian model. Gives you time to settle down and for ISKCON to gets its **** straight. Who knows, by then you should even have a pope and Puranjana will have been made a saint.

    Seriously, do you Rtviks still accept the point of the quote, that there are always living gurus to be true, or have you changed your mind about it, and if so, what was that change of mind based upon? Did it have anything to do with Rocana dasa’s recent paper DOR, which seriously diminished faith in TFO, even among the Rtvik camp — and since the Rtviks were making so much of TFO on the sire where it was clear that they had accepted the point of guru tattva that Narayana Maharaja was making (using either Bhaktissidhanta Thakur’s quote or who knows)

    http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/NM_Confused_2.htm

    So remember, simple answers, yes or no as to whether you still accept the point of the quote which is that there are always living gurus, and if you rascals have changed your mind and can manage a truthful and straightforward answer for once (and Puranjana, since I know that this goes against the grain for you, you can bow out of this round, you needn’t even try) if you no longer accept the point of the quote as being true, why not? All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krsna

    Ys, George Smith

    Reply
26. Puranjana dasa says:

    1. January 2013 at 8:00 pm

    George A. Smith: Amar, you can obfuscate all you want. The point I made was that you made a claim that was untrue, no matter how much you want to confuse the issue neither of your pals had proven or shown that the quote used by Narayana Maharaja was unauthentic.

    PD: We do not have to “prove” that any Gaudiya Matha and / or other non-Srila Prabhupada publications are authentic? Srila Prabhupada said to us in Bombay in 1972: Do not read from ANY of these Gaudiya Matha’s books, just read mine. He said: Most of these books had unauthorized editing after 1936. He said: Reading these books is spiritual prostitution. He said: Only read and quote from my books. He said: It is a great offense to the spiritual master to read the books of other gurus when your own guru has his own books. He was CRYING when he told us that!

    So why should we listen to George A. Smith when he simply makes Srila Prabhupada cry by citing other publications? Why should we listen to the spiritual prostitutes and offenders class? Srila Prabhupada says, ONLY quote from my books, and George A. Smith not only — does not quote from the authorized books — he wants us to “prove” that his unauthorized books, are not authorized?

    Who has made George A. Smith the higher authority than Srila Prabhupada, that he can cite from books, when we are told, do not cite these books? That means George A. Smith thinks he is a higher authority that the acharya.

    Who made George A. Smith the sum total of the sum total of the acharya of the demigods? Just asking! Is there not just a slight ego problem, here? G.A.S. is dictating to — the acharya? G.A.S., we do not need to join your spiritual prostitutes clan, there is enough incurable diseases you folks have been spreading around here already. You prove to us your quote is bona fide by matching it to something from Srila Prabhupada, who by the way says — there are gaps.

    HDG Srila Prabhupada has totally confuted your alleged quote already. And so does Krishna, Krishna says — the line disappears and He has to re-appear YUGE YUGE to bring it back, now George de facto says, Krishna has no idea what He is talking about, because there is no break in the line? George A. Smith is now the boss, of God Almighty? We think, naaaay naaaay! George A. Smith is not the boss of a single cock roach in Los Angeles, let alone God. ys pd

    Reply
27. mark says:

    1. January 2013 at 10:09 pm

    George is caught with his kaupins down around his ankles and he is so tripped up he can’t keep his story straight.

    He sucked up to Rocana for so many years that he is now full of poison up to his eyebrows and is blinded so badly he thinks we are blind as well and can’t see him.

    He and Rocana both used that quote MAINLY and probably EXCLUSIVELY because it was ascribed to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. Yet now that the truth is out he wants us to believe that they rely on that quote so strongly because of the self-effulgent truth of the quote itself, and who may or may not have said it is irrelevant.

    Oh and I like his latest “Srila Bhaktisiddhanta may have said such a thing because it is authentic Guru-tattva”. LOL.

    I’ve got some prime swampland in Siberia to sell you George.

    “This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, ‘There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,’ is an atheistic opinion.”
    (True Conception of Sri Guru Tattva)”

    So when shown a direct quote from Srila Prabhupada where he contradicts the false “Parampara is never broken” theory advocated in that bogus quote, George INSISTS that the quote is in line with Guru tattva as “Srila Prabhupada taught it”.

    Pretty condescending George. Believe it or not, everyone writing to you hear can read also.

    Incidently Srila Prabhupada only used the term Sad guru when replying to someone else who used the word, or in a couple purports when that exact term was emphasized in a translation of scripture.

    Furthermore, considering that the true source of that quote is from Narayana Maharaja, we can be sure he was NOT referring to the living guru AKA Srila Prabhupada in his Vani form of his books, etc, BUT TO THE NEED FOR A BODY TO BE YOUR GURU.

    Because the record shows overwhelmingly that Narayana Maharaja was MR. LIVING GURU vs. DEAD GURU, VAPU IS KING OF GURUS.

    Humility first George. Then talk about Guru tattva.

    Reply
28. Mahesh Raja says:

    1. January 2013 at 11:10 pm

    Puranjana Prabhu wrote:

    “PD: We do not have to “prove” that any Gaudiya Matha and / or other non-Srila Prabhupada publications are authentic? Srila Prabhupada said to us in Bombay in 1972: Do not read from ANY of these Gaudiya Matha’s books, just read mine. He said: Most of these books had unauthorized editing after 1936. He said: Reading these books is spiritual prostitution. He said: Only read and quote from my books. He said: It is a great offense to the spiritual master to read the books of other gurus when your own guru has his own books. He was CRYING when he told us that! ”

    George Prabhu needs to understand these FACTS:

    73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
    Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.

    74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
    In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

    Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Sukadeva, November 14, 1973
    “Regarding the Gaudiya Math books being circulated there, who is distributing? Who is sending these books? The Gaudiya Math does not sell our books, why we should sell their books. Who has introduced these books? Let me know. THESE BOOKS SHOULD NOT AT ALL BE CIRCULATED IN OUR SOCIETY. BHAKTI VILAS TIRTHA IS VERY MUCH ANTAGONISTIC TO OUR SOCIETY AND HE HAS NO CLEAR CONCEPTION OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. HE IS CONTAMINATED. ANYWAY, WHO HAS INTRODUCED THESE BOOKS? YOU SAY THAT YOU WOULD READ ONLY ONE BOOK IF THAT WAS ALL THAT I HAD WRITTEN, SO YOU TEACH OTHERS TO DO LIKE THAT. You have very good determination.”

    Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Visvakarma, November 09, 1975
    “Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated September 3, 1975 with the enclosed statement about Van Maharaja. So I have now issued orders that all my disciples should avoid ALL of my godbrothers. THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY DEALINGS WITH THEM NOR EVEN CORRESPONDENCE, NOR SHOULD THEY GIVE THEM ANY OF MY BOOKS OR SHOULD THEY PURCHASE ANY OF THEIR BOOKS, NEITHER SHOULD YOU VISIT ANY OF THEIR TEMPLES. PLEASE AVOID THEM.”

    The other point is Vysadeva is STILL living BUT “We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him.” And that PROMINENT ACARYA is Srila Prabhupada:

    750620AR.LA Lectures
    Prabhupada: Yes. When they will read, then they will get. Nowadays in the Sixth Canto, Fourth Chapter, the soul and how the soul is covered, that is being described wonderfully. Srimad-Bhagavatam amalam puranam. Vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. It is written by the most learned Vyasadeva, vidvams, and satvata-samhitam. How merciful he was. He is still living, Vyasadeva. He is still existing.

    68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
    Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong.

    So George Prabhu YOUR choice Reject OR accept Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru. PERIOD

    Reply
29. george a. smith says:

    1. January 2013 at 11:36 pm

    “To receive transcendental knowledge, we must completely surrender ourselves to the real acarya in a spirit of ardent inquiry and service. Actual performance of service to the Absolute under the guidance of the acarya is the only vehicle by which we can assimilate transcendental knowledge. Today’s meeting for offering our humble services and homage to the feet of the acaryadeva will enable us to be favored with the capacity of assimilating the transcendental knowledge so kindly transmitted by him to all persons without distinction.” Sri Guru and His Grace – Preface by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

    Perhaps that is another quotation that you would like to question the authorship of. If not then you might want to reflect upon the implications of it, on how it would apply to someone who ran (or flew) away from Srila Prabhupadas service.
    Near the beginning of this thread those who had been accounting Purajnana to be one of Srila Prabhupadas staunchest and most sincere disciples were made familiar with a bit of his history from New Dwarka in the 1970, of a time when Puranjana stiff armed Srila Prabhupada, walked (or flew) away from direct service to him and was then after never entrusted with so much as sharpening a pencil by Krsnas pure devotee again. The devotees are welcome to read back to my posting on Dec 27th on this thread. What follows is Puranjanas meager response, one that brings into question more than it answers and an update from the source of that original info
    Fr Puranjana
    27. December 2012 at 5:59 am
    “ Now George is also saying someone could argue with Prabhupada, and two days later land in England and be welcomed there by Jayatirtha, because Srila Prabhupada’s policy was to allow people who argued with him to be welcome everywhere. No, people who argued had to repent or leave. Incidently, Hari Sauri’s book says we rectified and apologized, even the GBC knows they could not say that people who argue were still welcome, they know that was not the policy of HDG. Anyway George is right, me and Sulochana were called bogus gopis, that is why Sulochan said, we are the ones who fought with the GBC, people who wear saris are the worst fighters around, hah hah. Anway all of the above was written by NNV, so George A. Smith is working with that program, …. and NNV has about as much credibility as, …. Rocana? ys pd

    Anyway, I e-mailed the individual who initially provided this info which Puranjana had remained silent about until it made it to this forum and then he had to try to discount it in order to keep up the false impression that he is such a dear and loyal servant of Srila Prabhupada, when in reality he may be a very great offender at Srila Prabhupadas lotus feet and just trying to hoodwink the Rtviks into thinking that he loves Srila Prabhupada, when, if this report is true, he shows every indication otherwise and is only cultivating the trust of the Rtvik community in the service of his own personal agenda.
    This is the reply that I got from the author of the initial report on Puranjana which I published on this thread:

    “Dear George A Smith,

    Hare Krishna!…Please accept my greetings in the service of, and at the Lotus Feet of Srila Prabhupada.

    I re-read what I wrote.

    There are no errors in what I wrote, and what Puranjan did in 1976 was well know, and a seandal that rocked the New Dwarka Communityl

    Puranjana states that he “Blooped in LA, and then turns up in London two days later. Obviouslt, to do this would be practically impossible.

    He was well established in LA at the Spanish BBT (temporary director while Hridayananda swami was in South America)…and then he (with whose blessing?) suddenly hops on a plane for England? Considering that he was the temporary director of the Spanish BBT, it is INCONCEIVABLE that he could leave for England without extensive talks with SP as to WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO THERE TO SERVED SP!

    There is no record whatsoever of Puranjan showing up in England two days later after “fighting” with SP. (In those days I had very extensive perusal association with SP, and there is no question of a devotee leaving his official post at the BBT without SOP’s specific order that he do so……(So, Puranjan goes from rendering direct service to SP to “NO SERVICE” at all in England, and we are supposed to believe it?

    I am sure that you noticed that my writing about Puranjan and Yasoda was well thought out, well expressed, and very cogent and to the point.

    If Puranjan were not some sort of addled “Don Quixote de la Mancha” (constantly trying to get those foolish enough to help him “tilt at windmills”, imagining them to be some sort of “deadly enemies”) he would have soberly answered my clearly expressed points one by one as I wrote them so that If I were mistaken, or actually “slandering” him any sober third party reading this exchange would understand and be able to evaluate his reply.

    Obviously, Puranjana’s reply is incoherent “gibberish”. Even as a high school
    “drop out” he should be able to do better than that! Even with Yasodanandana writing most of his “good” stuff, his writing shows the obvious signs of advancing dementia, which if compared to his coherent and thoughtful writing in 1986 is as obvious as “black and white”.

    That Puranjana shows the clear signs of being mentally ill, should surprise no one, except those whose adoration of Puranjana resembles the adoration of Jim Jones by his doomed followers in Guyana some years ago.

    So, please clarify WHAT EXACTLY DID PURANJANA WRITE AS A REPLY, AND WHAT POINTS DID HE DISCUSS, AND WHAT “SIDDHANTA” (IF ANY) DID HE REACH?

    At this point, his “reply” lacks coherence, and cogency.

    What is your opinion?

    Yours, eternally in the service of Lord Krishna,

    NNV das”

    Let each devotee use their channels of communication to confirm this info as there are enough grandpas and grandmas among you that even though so many have been lost that there should still be enough around to establish the truth. Don’t just trust Puranjana and his cohorts for the truth.

    Reply
30. Puranjana dasa says:

    2. January 2013 at 4:09 am

    Narayana Maharaja has made many offensive statements against Srila Prabhupada, we have recounted a number of them on our sites and blogs for years. George A. Smith is well aware of these attacks by NM, starting with, he called for a boycott of Srila Prabhupada in 1971. We do not cite these blasphemers as our authority, so now G.A.S. is angry with us, because he does cite these rascals and we exposed that.

    By the way, the NNV version that I had left ISKCON in 1976 is incorrect. I was invited to come to England by Jayatirtha. My child was born in 1977 while I was living at the manor, I was out of ISKCON for two days while I travelled to London from LA. I am amazed that people are not allowed two days to be missing in action.

    I was welcomed to England in 1976 because it was widely known that me and Srila Prabhupada had exchanged letters and the matter was put into the past.

    In any case, suppose I am wrong, does that give George a licence to promote the blasphemers? George A. Smith team of NNV says, Radhanath is doing great preaching nowadays, ooops, the guy who paid a hit man to come and get me and Sulochjana. Is this what this is all about, these people are sour grapes that I am still alive? As for NNV’s credibility, well if he is your source, he has none. ys pd

    Reply
31. george a. smith says:

    2. January 2013 at 4:36 am

    “Similarly I have received letters from Puranjana, Varadhana, and Atmarama and either they are not willing to work according to direction or otherwise, how do they complain there is no sufficient engagement? I think there is more than sufficient engagement for everyone. We have got so much to do. We have to deal with so many men with different personalities. So kindly utilize their energies and at the same time keep them satisfied. That is leadership. if one man is appointed as leader, all must follow him and be obedient. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” They are pointing out irregularities, but they themselves are not doing their duty, so they are pointing out the irregularities in others. They came to serve, now they don’t want to serve so there is some excuse. Oh, irregularity, let me go away.”
    Srila Prabhupada
    1972 Correspondence : May : Letter to: Giriraja — Honolulu 15 May, 1972 : 72-05-15 :

    Reply
32. george a. smith says:

    2. January 2013 at 4:59 am

    Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is – Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 6: Sankhya-yoga : Bg 6.42 : PURPORT :

    Birth in a family of yogīs or transcendentalists—those with great wisdom—is praised herein because the child born in such a family receives spiritual impetus from the very beginning of his life. It is especially the case in the ācārya or gosvāmī families. Such families are very learned and devoted by tradition and training, and thus they become spiritual masters. In India there are many such ācārya families, but they have now degenerated due to insufficient education and training. By the grace of the Lord, there are still families that foster transcendentalists generation after generation. It is certainly very fortunate to take birth in such families. Fortunately, both our spiritual master, Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, and our humble self, had the opportunity to take birth in such families, by the grace of the Lord, and both of us were trained in the devotional service of the Lord from the very beginning of our lives. Later on we met by the order of the transcendental system.

    Reply
33. Puranjana dasa says:

    2. January 2013 at 5:09 am

    Actually me and Sulochana both went to England. He carried Srila Prabhupada upstairs when he came to the manor. There are hundreds of witnesses to that, at least.

    Me and Sulochana were then already making our alliance at that time, to question these bogus people. We felt something bad was coming down the pike, and we were right. We later teamed up again in the 1980s, this is famous all over ISKCON, and ummm, millions of people know this because even the karmi media people came to question me about all this work I was doing with Sulochana. That is where we cemented our relationship, in England in 1976-1979. This is well known to probably thousands of people.

    I was there.

    If anyone doubts I was there, why not ask a few eye witnesses like: Danavir, Vipramukhya, Kulashekara, Dhananjaya, Bala Gopala, Hari Krishna dasa, Bhaja Hari, and hundreds of others who were all there at that time. I also visited France and saw Hari vilas, Bhagavan, and many others there. Ask them.

    MY PHOTO IS IN THE 1976 ENGLAND NEWSPAPERS OF ME GOING TO RESCUE A KIDNAPPED BABY GIRL, I HAVE A COPY OF THE NEWSPAPER CLIPPING HERE IF ANYONE WANTS TO SEE IT!

    For that matter, ask Sulochana’s ex-wife who lives at New Vrndavana now, and ask my wife, my child, her family, and probably hundreds of other people who all saw me there.

    This is amazing, the G.A.S. people are actually saying these hundreds of people, do not exist! This is getting pretty desperate, these hundreds of people AND MILLIONS WHO SAW MY PHOTO IN THE NEWSPAPERS are all liars, only NNV is telling the truth, and GAS is such a fool, he accepts the version of the one person, who — was not there, NNV!

    This is really grasping at straws, I was there, my passport confirms it. Moreover, my son was born there and there are many documents showing his residence was the Manor. My driving licence was issued at the Manor address and so on and so forth. I eventually got a working permit there, and the manor was my address etc. How can these people deny the eye-witness accounts of thousands of people, paperwork, newspaper clippings and so on, ….. its easy to explain, G.S is simply a blind cult member of the NNV / Radhanath is a good guy religion. Blind foolish cult members like George A Smith cannot see what millions of others can. ys pd

    Reply
34. Mahesh Raja says:

    2. January 2013 at 8:08 am

    George Prabhu quoted:

    Books : Bhagavad-gita As It Is — Macmillan 1972 Edition : Bg 6: Sankhya-yoga : Bg 6.42 : PURPORT :

    Birth in a family of yogīs or transcendentalists—those with great wisdom—is praised herein because the child born in such a family receives spiritual impetus from the very beginning of his life. It is especially the case in the ācārya or gosvāmī families. Such families are very learned and devoted by tradition and training, and thus they become spiritual masters. In India there are many such ācārya families, but they have now degenerated due to insufficient education and training. By the grace of the Lord, there are still families that foster transcendentalists generation after generation. It is certainly very fortunate to take birth in such families. Fortunately, both our spiritual master, Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, and our humble self, had the opportunity to take birth in such families, by the grace of the Lord, and both of us were trained in the devotional service of the Lord from the very beginning of our lives. Later on we met by the order of the transcendental system.

    So WHO is PROMINENT? You are EVADING accepting Srila Prabhupada as the CURRENT DIKSA GURU:

    We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him.
    68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
    Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong.

    1) Also your comments against Puranjana Prabhu and Yasoda nandanana Prabhus what you FAIL to address is YOU SIDED with Sri Mukunda dasa who BLASPHEMES Srila Prabhupada. Sri Mukunda das has ZERO credibility.
    2) Whereas your quote Nara Narayana Visvakarma Prabhu – he was speaking against Ritviks at one point then later changed his mind and decided to be “Ritvik” again.

    Now lets come back to the MAIN issue:
    So WHO is PROMINENT ACARYA George Prabhu? You are EVADING accepting Srila Prabhupada as the CURRENT DIKSA GURU:
    “We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from HIM. ”

    You have been CORNERED so face it, either you
    1) accept Srila Prabhupada as current Diksa Guru
    OR
    2) Reject him.

    Which one? This SHOWS what you are made of. This is the TEST either you are FOR Srila Prabhupada OR against him.

    Reply
35. Puranjana dasa says:

    2. January 2013 at 2:44 pm

    Agreed, instead of Rocana, George A. Smith, et al. just telling us “who the living guru is,” George A. Smith is citing all kinds of dubious accounts from dubious people, like NNV, Sri Mukunda, Narayana Maharaja etc., to create a diversionary side conversation.

    Also he is trying to evade answering by starting a side show story that I was not in England in 1976, despite there is a photo of me in the British newspapers where I am dressed in a bead bag, kurta, neck beads etc. and my wife is dressed in a sari, …. ummm duh, that means we were devotees in England at the time. This is graduating to insanity style denial right now.

    This is all desperation technique. Prevarication, evading, shuffling, waffling, stalling, phony up, just like the GBC gurus have done all along as well and …. that is all there is to it.

    When I told my wife that, according to NNV and George A Smith, she did not have our child in England while living at the Bhaktivedanta manor, she said, “Are you kidding me, when you are pregnant, you NEVER FORGET THAT.” Then she laughed her socks off, and she said, “These people are gradually going insane because they have supported this bogus ‘living guru’ program, and you exposed them as total frauds for doing that — to the bone. And they will never forgive you for making them look like donkeys.” That about sums it up. ys pd

    Reply
36. SG says:

    2. January 2013 at 4:20 pm

    Puranjana dasa says:
    1. January 2013 at 8:00 pm

    “PD: We do not have to “prove” that any Gaudiya Matha and / or other non-Srila Prabhupada publications are authentic? Srila Prabhupada said to us in Bombay in 1972: Do not read from ANY of these Gaudiya Matha’s books, just read mine. He said: Most of these books had unauthorized editing after 1936. He said: Reading these books is spiritual prostitution. He said: Only read and quote from my books. He said: It is a great offense to the spiritual master to read the books of other gurus when your own guru has his own books. He was CRYING when he told us that!
    So why should we listen to George A. Smith when he simply makes Srila Prabhupada cry by citing other publications? Why should we listen to the spiritual prostitutes and offenders class? Srila Prabhupada says, ONLY quote from my books, and George A. Smith not only — does not quote from the authorized books — he wants us to “prove” that his unauthorized books, are not authorized? ”
    Now read the quote below, conversation between Srila Prahupada and his disciples which is quite self-explanatory.
    ” 750513mw.per Conversations
    Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous acaryas.
    Prabhupada: Hmm?
    Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda’s books or earlier books of other, all acaryas. So I was just wondering…
    Prabhupada: I never said that.
    Amogha: You didn’t say that? Oh.
    Prabhupada: How is that?
    Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous acaryas’ books.
    Prabhupada: No, you should read.
    Amogha: We should.
    Prabhupada: It is misunderstanding.
    Paramahamsa: I think maybe he was thinking that there was some things about some of the Gaudiya Matha books.
    Prabhupada: Maybe.
    Paramahamsa: And sometimes you said that better not to…, better to read your books.
    Amogha: When the devotees went to India this year, they said that Acyutananda Swami very…, chastised them that “You should never… If I catch any of you buying Bhaktisiddhanta’s books from Gaudiya Matha then I will take it away,” something like this.
    Paramahamsa: Yeah, that was, the reason was because of, he didn’t want the devotees going to Gaudiya Matha. But there’s nothing wrong with the idea of studying the previous acaryas’ books.
    Prabhupada: No. Who said? That is wrong. We are following previous acaryas. I never said that.
    Paramahamsa: All of your commentaries are coming from the previous acaryas.
    Prabhupada: Yes.
    Jayadharma: But that wouldn’t mean that we should keep all the previous acaryas’ books and only read them.
    Prabhupada: That is already there. You first of all assimilate what you have got. You simply pile up books and do not read–what is the use?
    Jayadharma: First of all we must read all your books.
    Prabhupada: Yes. ”
    One can never be too careful when it come to people who go around saying, ” Srila Prabhupada said so “

    Reply
37. mark says:

    2. January 2013 at 7:28 pm

    “To receive transcendental knowledge, we must completely surrender ourselves to the real acarya in a spirit of ardent inquiry and service. Actual performance of service to the Absolute under the guidance of the acarya is the only vehicle by which we can assimilate transcendental knowledge. Today’s meeting for offering our humble services and homage to the feet of the acaryadeva will enable us to be favored with the capacity of assimilating the transcendental knowledge so kindly transmitted by him to all persons without distinction.” Sri Guru and His Grace — Preface by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

    Only to a GROSS neophyte like George Smith, who believes the Acarya is only ULTIMATELY AVAILABLE in his Vapu, does this paragraph indicate that an aspirant needs to make pilgrimage straight away to the home of Rocana Das, or Jayadwaita “Swami” or perhaps “Sriman” this or that who Narayana Maharaja left in charge, and promptly offer to wash their clothes, cook their meals, and have them explain the Bhaktivedanta Purports to them.

    To the more mature devotee, advanced neophyte or higher, this statement by Srila Prabhupada assures them that he is always available through his Vani and secondarily through association with his disciples who consider themselves representatives, NOT INDEPENDENT GURU/ACARYAS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.

    Bye George. Good luck with Radhanantha Swami’s laundry.

    Reply
38. Amar Puri says:

    2. January 2013 at 11:05 pm

    Dear Bhakta George,

    Hare Krishna, AGTSP. PAMHO.

    The point of the quote made by you which was authored by Narayana Maharaja using Srila BSSTM name after it has been already well answered clearly in my comments above. What more proof you need to establish that Srila Prabhupada’s Vani remains the Living Guru as further quoted and explained by Srila Prabhupada Himself in my posting ?

    Similar controversy we hear about siksa, diksa, and bhagavata parampara, However I have never heard once even Srila Prabhupada call it a siksa parampara in any of his writings or recorded message, he just says parampara, bas.

    So these type of quotes such as above accepted by Bhakta George and others we hear are very much confusing which creates lots of deviations to best suit the agenda of the so called leaders / gurus in the different organizations of the Vaishnavas. That is very very very dangerous.

    Therefore, we the followers of the Srila Prabhupada simply have to adhere to the Instructions and the VANI of the Present Acaraya HDG. Srila Prabhupada to make our respective lives sublime.

    Hope it meets well.

    Hari BOL.

    YS……. Amar Puri.

    Reply
39. Puranjana dasa says:

    3. January 2013 at 2:50 am

    Correct, George A. Smith’s hero writer is NNV, and both NNV and his wife Roupa Manjari have been arguing recently that Radhanath is doing great work. Yep, burying the carcass of Kirtanananda in the holy dham is a masterpiece of holy work, … for these folks it is anyway. ys pd

    Reply
40. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    3. January 2013 at 4:31 am

    There is a major attempt right now by Christian scholars to once and for all have present Vaishnava institutions completely removed from Western countries and all comments are studied scrutinizingly, books are written about Vaishnava institution’s falling apart into hostile, irreconcilable groups. To sum it all up, Subhodip Mitra says below, he feels that for ISKCONites a ritvik is something like a neo-nazi Anti-semite.

    By Subhodip Mitra

    ~~~~TO ANY BLATANT IGNORAMUS CONCERNED WHO THINKS I AM A “RITVIK”, READ THIS BEFORE ARRIVING AT YOUR JUVENILE BRAINWASHED ASSUMPTIONS AND PRESUMPTIONS ABOUT ME!!~~~~

    The term ṛtvik has been bandied around ISKCON as if it is a dirty word. The pejorative use of the term ṛtvik is not dissimilar to the way politically correct people use the term Anti-Semite which has no bearing on the direct or literal meaning of the term but is used to describe a person who hates Jews. Rtvik is a misnomer as the term is a noun that Srila Prabhupada has given in his books for a priest who performs ceremonies for the various Vedas and most certainly has never been used, as far as I have researched, for someone who officiates on behalf of another. The proper use of the term in relationship to the Initiation process would be to refer to the ṛtvik priest or Brahman who conducts the fire yajña or any Vedic ceremony or rite. Srila Prabhupada describes its meaning as:

    “Acting as Supersoul, the Lord gives inspiration to a suitable person to perform the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. In this connection, four classes of priests, known as ṛtvik, are required.”[SB.7.3.30]

    We have no idea why the term ṛtvik was introduced by Tamal Krsna Goswami and others to describe the title and function the way they did, in the various conversations that they had about the future of the initiation process within ISKCON, but somehow or other this term got mixed up and confused. No matter what happened in those talks where ṛtvik was brought up, the talks culminated in Srila Prabhupada’s Mandate: Otherwise known as -The July 9th Document. We can only speculate why Srila Prabhupada allowed the term ṛtvik to be used in these discussions but we must understand that the main point is “Representatives of the Acarya”
    “…representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation…” [July 9th Document]

    The term ṛtvik is superfluous as Srila Prabhupada mainly used the term as a priest who performs ritualistic ceremonies. In our case this would mean the priest or Brahmin who conducted the fire yajña or sacrifice in the Temple under the direction of the Temple President.
    After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. [July 9th Document]

    What must be understood is that Srila Prabhupada established a system for initiation where a devotee is appointed by the GBC to act in an official capacity in the initiation procedure by representing him as the Ācārya; which is specified in the Initiation Procedural Document also known as the July 9th Letter or document. Nowhere in this document does Srila Prabhupada specify or instruct that his representatives act as ṛtvik gurus who initiate their own disciples.

    “…Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad…”
    “…The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace”s “Initiated Disciples” book…” [July 9th Document]

    The procedure and function of the Representative of the Ācārya is clearly detailed in this document however the GBC and their various Apologists have refused to obey Srila Prabhupada and have purposefully discredited this document as being a useless exercise.
    We have to remember that everything that the Ācārya does is not limited to the devotees present at the time. This is very small minded or parochial to think that a Vaiṣṇava Ācārya and his activities are limited to a small band of GBC men who ultimately betrayed him. The works of a Vaiṣṇava Ācārya of the status of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are meant for humanity and should not be limited to the wicked minds of the GBC, Rubber Stamped Gurus, FISKCON apologists and their disciples.
    We must understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa dictates who He sends to enlighten mankind and what role and function His representative will play in mankind’s history. Such a vital role in human society cannot be interfered with by the puerile minds of kali yuga men who should in actual fact prostrate themselves in full dandavat obeisance to such a divinely empowered personality such as His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
    Yet the GBC would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada had no idea that he would leave his body in a few months time, when he signed an unprecedented official mandate, on ISKCON Letterhead on July 9th, making it a legally binding document for his ISKCON society to uphold, thinking that it would be for only a few months! To think that the suddha bhakta would not know exactly when he would leave his body is outrageous to say the least!
    This is such a preposterously offensive idea that it is very surprising that any sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada would not be totally offended by hearing such rascaldom.
    The historical facts are that the then GBC who were appointed as Representatives of the Ācārya by Srila Prabhupada as detailed in the July 9th Document did not perform that role given to them by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada but instead took control of Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON society and appointed themselves as Ācāryas / Dīkṣā gurus.
    The term ṛtvik needs to be removed from our vernacular as a way to describe any devotee who opposes the Rubber Stamped Guru system of the GBC.

    I AM NOT A RITVIK, I SIMPLY FOLLOW MY ETERNAL GURU Srila Prabhupada. It is as simple as that.
    The fact that we don’t have functioning representatives of the Ācārya in our ISKCON society is due to the fact that the GBC Rubber Stamped Gurus, their disciples and the multitude of Apologists do not represent His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada but represent some other interest.

    The GBC, Rubber Stamped Gurus and their apologists would like to think of those who oppose them as having left Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON society but they could not be further from the truth. It is they who have left Srila Prabhupada and his institution and superimposed their own institution where they live and serve. In fact they are the most heinous offenders of Srila Prabhupada, the paramparā and Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. They make a mockery out of our glorious Vaiṣṇava tradition and offend, vilify and abuse Srila Prabhupada’s loyal followers.

    The disciples are of course the worst offenders in some ways. They get aggressive and vitriolic when their gurus are being exposed for cheaters and rascals and they project their anger, frustration and the fact that they cannot – according to social convention, common decency, moral values, legally or sastrically – defend their exposed guru. They feel completely justified in calling us pigs, vultures etc or labeling us as offenders, aparadhis and so on. They would act on their anger and rage by physical assaults up to the point of premeditated murder for exposing, discussing or rebuking their morally depraved and outright criminal gurus.
    For example many of Prabhavisnu’s former disciples still offer puja to him as if his betrayal and rejection of them as disciples does not interfere with his uttma adhikāra status. They refuse to think that as they are offering puja to him he is probably in the arms of his lover in Thailand. But of course this does not matter to them… At the same time these people are vitriolically calling us ṛtvik rascals and Vaiṣṇava aparadhi pigs and demanding that their guru is none of our business. Such is the raw state of denial and ignorance that the GBC and Rubber Stamped Gurus of FISKCON have acculturated into our society.

    They would be ‘none of our business’ had their guru left ISKCON and established his own math like Srila Prabhupada’s god brothers did but these reprobates clung to mother ISKCON and leeched of it for decades. So we have every right to expose and rebuke them for ruining Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON and disrespecting and offending the pure devotee His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

    So we must educate the devotees in general that the term Ritvik is a misnomer and misleading and should not be used to describe the loyal followers of Srila Prabhupada.

    (special thanks to Krsnacandra Dāsa Prabhu for the post)

    Reply
41. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    3. January 2013 at 5:20 am

    Rukmini Ramana dd says:
    There is a major attempt right now by Christian scholars to once and for all have present Vaishnava institutions completely removed from Western countries and all comments are studied scrutinizingly, books are written about Vaishnava institution’s falling apart into hostile, irreconcilable groups. To sum it all up, Subhodip Mitra says below, he feels that for ISKCONites a ritvik is something like a neo-nazi Anti-semite.

    It’s no secret that the ISKCON leaders have tried to make Srila Prabhupada’s own terminology, “ritvik,” into a dirty word, but we wear it as a badge of honor!

    Obviously, the only reason why Tamal Krishna used the word is because Prabhupada used it in previous unrecorded conversations. Later on, Srila Prabhupada refined the terminology to “ritvik representative of the Acharya” to make his intended meaning more clear.

    Reply
42. Puranjana dasa says:

    3. January 2013 at 5:28 am

    Well yes, the GBC could not say, we are banning the Prabhupada devotees, so they say they are banning the ritviks, well either way, their temples are empty. People are simply not attracted to their living gurus, this is why they have to give immigration green cards or salaries to get people. Of course here in Berkeley we have no money to give green cards or salaries, so we have almost no one here. ys pd

    Reply
43. mark says:

    3. January 2013 at 4:38 pm

    I didn’t have to read very far into the ranting diatribe of Subhodip Mitra in order to feel satisfied that I didn’t have to read any further to defeat his nonsense.

    ” Rtvik is a misnomer as the term is a noun that Srila Prabhupada has given in his books for a priest who performs ceremonies for the various Vedas and MOST CERTAINLY HAS NEVER BEEN USED, AS FAR AS I HAVE RESEARCHED, for someone who officiates on behalf of another.”

    With all due respect to Subhodip, which is very little, If an author must qualify his ABSOLUTE (“most”) CERTAINTY, with the statement “as far as I have researched”, it is a sure sign from the author’s subconscious that his brain is full of stool and leaking out his mouth.

    And the proof that I am right about this stool brained fool is what he wrote directly previous to the above quote.

    “Rtvik is a misnomer as the term is a noun that Srila Prabhupada has given in his books for a priest who performs ceremonies for the various Vedas.”

    First, priests do not perform ceremonies for “Vedas”. That statement itself displays the ignorance of the author, and worse, he is trying to push off such a ludicrous definition of a priest on the writings of Srila Prabhupada.

    A simple glance at the definition of ritvik in a Sanskrit dictionary would have cleared this misconception, but we can’t expect fanatic so-called pure devotees to do such a simple thing. A ritvik is described as one of 4 different types of priests who perform sacrifices on behalf of the Acarya.

    Of course common sense dictates that a priest could not have learned any of the various rituals they perform unless ONE ACARYA taught the body of rituals for that time or age, after which the brahmin priests perform those rituals for their own purification and that of the populace. In other words the “Vedas” these priests serve were given to the priests by a PERSON, who is the ACARYA of the time.

    Thus we see that common sense is doubly lacking in these fanatic Guru wannabee hucksters.

    Just another day in paradise.

    Reply
44. Puranjana dasa says:

    4. January 2013 at 2:39 am

    ”Rtvik is a misnomer as the term is a noun that Srila Prabhupada has given in his books for a priest who performs ceremonies for the various Vedas and MOST CERTAINLY HAS NEVER BEEN USED, AS FAR AS I HAVE RESEARCHED, for someone who officiates on behalf of another.”

    PD: OK, lets take the bait and agree for argument’s sake that the priest is not officiating on behalf of the acharya, — because this begs the next step, and factually the highly obvious and self-evident question: — who ELSE is the priest “officiating on behalf of” instead? Santa Claus? Pontius Pilate? Peter Piper? Big Bird? How come these people never tell us — WHO — it is, that they are talking about?

    (A) The priest is not officiating on behalf of the acharya because, (B) He is officiating on behalf of someone else, …… ummmm, (C) I give up, who is it? And lets just hope to high heaven its not Oscar the Grouch of the Muppets that is the individual they are talking about here as the one the priest is officiating on behalf of. ys pd

    Reply
45. mark says:

    4. January 2013 at 4:14 am

    I owe Subhodip Mitra an apology.

    I was guided to go back and read his entire article. His frustration at the bad behavior of the current power structure in Fiskcon has clouded his judgement and that is the only reason why he misunderstands why Srila Prabhupada used the term ritvik to describe the representatives of the acarya for the purposes of initiation.

    He was right about how the term ritvik is misused in the labeling of anyone who supports Srila Prabhupada’s ritvik instruction as a “ritvik” in order to demonize them.

    But his angry re-activity blinded him from understanding the points I made in my previous post.

    However MY own ignorant blindness led me to jump to a conclusion about Subhodip after reading only his opening paragraphs where he was mistaken. So I ASSUMED that the rest of his essay was worthless and more of the same or worse. I was wrong, and in correcting his misunderstanding I spoke harshly, was very rude and offensive, and I feel terrible about it.

    I wish that he and the other Vaisnavas reading this will please forgive me for being so ignorant.

    I promise to read more carefully and hold my vile tongue in the future.

    ys

    Mark

    Reply
46. george a. smith says:

    5. January 2013 at 5:07 pm

    na sabham praviset prajnah
    sabhya-dosan anusmaran
    abruvan vibruvann ajno
    narah kilbisam asnute

    “A wise person should not enter an assembly if he knows the participants there are committing acts of impropriety, and if, having entered such an assembly, he fails to speak the truth, speaks falsely, or pleads ignorance, he will certainly incur sin.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 10.44.10)

    According to this shastric quote anyone of any wisdom or intelligence should be discouraged from hanging with you folks, what to speak of taking you at all seriously, just on account of such things as your obvious lack of social conscience.

    For example, almost all of you know that Puranajana is always telling lies about other people, or as the Christians call it; bearing false witness against others in an attempt to injure their reputations, etc., That he occaisionally tels some truth by accident does not excuse him from telling lies about others and you all know this, but not one of you object about Puranjana telling lies unless the lies that he is telling are lies about you personally.

    This is so obviously indicative of a lack of social conscience that how could you even be in such self delusion as to think that you have a healthy society. Not only that, it would be bad enough if Puranjana was just what we used to refer to as a “fringy”, but heck no, he’s one of your leading spokesmen!

    It’s getting really deep.

    That making up injurious lies and telling them is an “act of improprity” at least is something that is so obvious that it should go without saying, it should, but remarkably it seems that someone has to point out to you that tolerating such behavior in those you you seem to look to for what? Spiritual and moral guidence???? does not go a long way towards recomending your critical faculties, what to speak of your commitment to such virtues and spiritual values as truthfullness, which,last time I looked was supposed to be something that Srila Prabhupada said that you were supposede to regard very highly.

    Self-realization is distinguished from the life of the lower animals engaged in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating. Bhīṣmadeva advised for all human beings nine qualifications: (1) not to become angry, (2) not to lie, (3) to equally distribute wealth, (4) to forgive, (5) to beget children only by one’s legitimate wife, (6) to be pure in mind and hygienic in body, (7) not to be inimical toward anyone, (8) to be simple, and (9) to support servants or subordinates. One cannot be called a civilized person without acquiring the above-mentioned preliminary qualities.
    SB 1.9.26 : PURPORT
    King Purañjana returned to his home because he was very much fatigued from hunting animals in the forest. In this way his conscience came to stop him from committing further sinful activities and make him return home. In Bhagavad-gītā materialistic persons are described as duṣkṛtinaḥ, which indicates those who are always engaged in sinful activities. When a person comes to his senses and understands how he is engaging in sinful activities, he returns to his conscience, which is herein figuratively described as the palace. Generally a materialistic person is infected by the material modes of passion and ignorance. The results of passion and ignorance are lust and greed. In the life of a materialist, activity means working in lust and greed. However, when he comes to his senses, he wants to retire. According to Vedic civilization, such retirement is positively recommended, and this portion of life is called vānaprastha. Retirement is absolutely necessary for a materialist who wants to become free from the activities of a sinful life.
    SB 4.26.11 : PURPORT

    So a man preaching falsehood, is he a gentleman? Or he is a right man? Paramahaṁsa: No. Prabhupāda: So that is his position. Either he is a foolish rascal or he is not a gentleman, falsely preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is his position. If you do not know a subject matter, why do you talk about it? Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, you have no science. Similarly, here is a tape recorder, I do not know how the machine is working. If I talk about it authoritatively is it not my foolishness? I can talk about Bhagavad-gītā or something else, but that does mean I know everything about this machine? But he did it like this. He was dealing in politics, and he took up as a mahātmā, a religious man. That was his cheating. Paramahaṁsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say… Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled.
    Morning Walk, May 8, 1975, Perth

    According to the first Sloka quoted, those of you who enter into your society and do not speak out against such improprieties are yourselves incurring sin. That’s the opinion of the shastra and Srila Prabhupada. If you really care about Srila Prabhupadas opinion will be shown by what you do next.

    Ys, Bhakta George

    Reply
47. Amar Puri says:

    5. January 2013 at 9:14 pm

    Dear Bhakta George,

    Hare Krishna. AGTSP. PAMHO.

    I have written so much and given various answers appropriately to your questions. Now in your above post, you are collectively accusing every one of us who did challenge to your believe system which you have miserably failed to protect and promote it and yet, out of no where, you started accusing all of US for absolutely no reason explained in your comments which I find totally waste of time even reading it let alone writing this in response to it. However, I am obliged to write because not answering to it means I accept what you wrote foolishly. The quotes you mentioned from the Sastras are valid, make no mistake, but when it is not used properly without pointing out the description of the sins and you hide behind the quote like a gentleman, then, that is your cheating. Either you mislead or cheat or you are a foolish, your writing as such is full of CHEATING. Is it not SO ? Is this the way you really care about Srila Prabhupadas’ mission and the opinion of the Sastras you quoted ?

    Hope it finds you satisfactory.

    Hari BOL.

    YS…. Amar Puri.

    Reply
48. Puranjana dasa says:

    5. January 2013 at 9:51 pm

    George A. Smith: For example, almost all of you know that Puranajana is always telling lies about other people, or as the Christians call it; bearing false witness against others in an attempt to injure their reputations, etc., That he occaisionally tells some truth by accident does not excuse him from telling lies about others and you all know this, but not one of you object about Puranjana telling lies unless the lies that he is telling are lies about you personally.

    [PD: Over the years we have written probably ten thousand pages of materials. If there are statements on our web sites that are not accurate, then show us what they are specifically and we can try to fix that. To say our web site is mostly lies does not give us any ability to know what George is even talking about. As Brahmananda said, the reason no one ever sues you is, at least 99 percent of your writings are true.]

    … GEORGE: (Quoting the S.B story of King Puranjana) In the life of a materialist, activity means working in lust and greed. However, when he comes to his senses, he wants to retire. According to Vedic civilization, such retirement is positively recommended, and this portion of life is called vānaprastha. Retirement is absolutely necessary for a materialist who wants to become free from the activities of a sinful life.

    [PD: And George A. Smith is a disciple of Naranaryan dasa Visvakarma, a person who refused and still refuses to take vanaprastha at age 50 and who recently took a young wife and had a baby although NNV is getting nearer to 70 than 50. George A. Smith and his advisor do not even follow the scriptures he is quoting.]

    GEORGE: According to the first Sloka quoted, those of you who enter into your society and do not speak out against such improprieties are yourselves incurring sin. That’s the opinion of the shastra and Srila Prabhupada. If you really care about Srila Prabhupadas opinion will be shown by what you do next.

    Ys, Bhakta George

    [PD: Right, as soon as we showed folks that Srila Prabhupada says vanaprastha at age 50 is mandatory, and herein he says it is absolutely necessary, then we were immediately attacked by the NNV / George A. Smith committee since they have no regard whatsoever for shastra. Sorry, that quote above from shastra is not my idea, it is a quote from SRILA PRABHUPADA and his shastra. And George A. Smith has handily reminded us that neither he nor his shiksha guru are bothering to follow that shastra. Why has George made his shiksha guru out of a person who defies the shastra? ys pd]

    Reply
49. Mahesh Raja says:

    6. January 2013 at 9:22 am

    George A. Smith
    Hare Krsna! you should be ashamed of yourself. You accuse Puranjana Prabhu of being sinful yet YOU do not even accept Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru even when you are cornered that PROMINENT Acarya has to be FOLLOWED: “We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. ” THIS is HOW dishonest YOU are.

    68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
    Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.

    Reply
50. Puranjana dasa says:

    6. January 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Right, it always comes back to, who are we going to accept as our authority?

    George A. Smith is citing the writings of Narayana Maharaja as his authority, but NM says many things that are directly opposed to Srila Prabhupada’s statements, for example that Srila Prabhupada’s program of having Lord Narasinghadeva in Radha and Krishna’s temples “scares away Srimate Radharani.” Srimate Radharani is the most intelligent being in existence outside of Krishna, she is not scared of anything, much less Krishna’s incarnations, period.

    George and NNV are always citing Sri Mukunda, ok this is another person who never had real faith in Srila Prabhupada the whole time. He was always citing Bible verses to folks in LA and saying he had wanted to become a Christian because the Krishnas are bogus etc., so he was always doubtful and so on. He did a little service for awhile but that does not allow him to be the new spokesperson for Satan. He has now become the worst critic of Vaishnas on the planet and he hardly rates as an authority, ok but he is an authority for George and NNV? Why?

    George cited Srila Prabhupada on vanaprastha, ok good, ooops and at the same time he cites NNV, who gets infuriated when we cite Srila Prabhupada on vanaprastha because NNV totally dis-regards the instructions of Srila Prabhupada regarding vanaprastha? Why isn’t George lecturing to NNV about vanaprastha when we accept it, but his hero writer NNV does not?

    George says our 10,000 pages of writing is full of lies, but he won’t tell us which or where these lies are? Simultaneously, George also says — if we see 7 billion people walking around, one of them might be, could be, maybe is, who can say for sure, nobody knows, could quite evidently be, but we are not going to say, but for sure there is … among the 7 billion … the current diksha guru of the jagat, and therefore worship of Srila Prabhupada is bogus because there is always a diksha guru, you just have to figure out where he is among the 7 billion yourself.

    This is quite obviously a bluff …. this man is expert at shell and peanut games. He has 7 billion peanut shells, one peanut is under there, you have to chose which peanut shell? This is totally foolishness and such a bluff even a five year old child can see through it, 7 billion and ONLY one “might be or could be” the actual messiah, but George is not going to tell you who he is, you have to look at all 7 billion yourself, which would take 1,740 lifetimes just to individually meet all the 7 billion folks, hah hah, even children laugh at such silly jokers.

    And now George says there is 10,000 pages of writing, its contains lies, but you have to pick which of the 10,000 peanut shells — has the lies? This is all cheating and bluffing, plain and simple. ys pd

    Reply
51. george a. smith says:

    6. January 2013 at 7:14 pm

    Srila Prabhupada said that a human being without a philosophy is simply an animal. This is very scientific explanation. Human beings, appear, in the biological model, as primates, but not simply as primates. Rather they are a very unique kind of primate. Never forget that they are also primates, and thus quite capable of being only or simply animals as Srila Prabhupada would sometimes describe them as being. In other words, the usual primate programs about territory and property can be seen reflected in any human community whose members are not overridingly situated in Krsna consciousness, or conducting themselves in reality in accordance with the Krsna conscious philosophy that Srila Prabhupada gave to us.
    Other primates mark off their territorial boundaries with biological excrement, with feces that emerge from their rectums. The human being, or domesticated primates, or dumb bald monkeys, as my friend Evelyn from the Circle K refers to them; mark off their territorial boundaries also with excretions, or feces that are excreted from the exact same sources, just that pixilated lines and ink trails on paper form the type of excretions while people who think of themselves as devotees but who are acting in animal consciousness and only putting on the gloss of Srila Prabhupadas words to disguise themselves and their real intentions are the sources of such types of human excrement.

    From the biological perspective, the borders between ISKCON, the Gaudiya Matha, the Rtviks, etc., every boundary marks a place where rival gangs of domesticated primates, battled until exhausted and then left a territorial mark.

    Due to their practically unique ability, domesticated primates have the ability to learn neurosemantic systems, such as philosophies, and due to the four principle defects, they can become so delusional as to think that by their learning of such a philosophy that it becomes their territory. Symbolic territories or metaphysical models take on as much, or even more meaning to them as physical territories to them, not only simply out of a sense of mistaken identity but also because they seem to offer more.

    Take for instance the real world of our day to day experience verses the metaphysical world of the Krsna consciousness movement as domesticated primates experience it, as a system of objects to be manipulated according to what may be referred to as being “game rules”.

    All systems consist of symbols and the game rules by which they are manipulated. It becomes very easy to win something as long as one plays by the rules.

    So far, upon just this thread I have been offered a position of what basically amounts to avery low place in the pecking order, as just another saved soul or someone who has been redeemed, from the clutches of Rocana dasa, or those who do not accept that Srila Prabhupada is still acting as diksa guru following his disappearance, etc., and who are of course all going to Hell.

    In other words, and as long as I either kept my mouth shut or only said what the priests of the idol want me to say, I could could join all the other sheep just waiting to be fleeced.

    And if I don’t accept their B.S which includes all the predictabl epethets, all the predictable accusations and all the predictable threats which mean didly to me.

    Without a social concience no one can be protected within your society. Thus, should anyone tire of your leaders B.S. and object to it, that person may be subjected to their wrath. Sound any different that ISKCON?
    All glories to Srila Prabhupada
    Hare Krsna

    Amar, neither you, nor Puranjana, not Mahesh speak for ” all” of the Rtviks, though by their silence you may correctly interpret that for the time being that you may indeed have a great many of them cowed into silence Trust me that unless you can effectivly put down such desenting viewpoint sas I offer such a power as you imagine that you hold is not going to last.:)

    Bhakta George

    Reply
52. Puranjana dasa says:

    6. January 2013 at 10:02 pm

    Dear George, If all the “battling parties” are simply primates who are marking their territory, why is George A. Smith battling with all of the above primates, and thus doing the same thing, i.e. he is also battling just like those of us he calls primates? Why is his party superior to any other party in all these battles?

    At least we are promoting a bona fide guru, Srila Prabhupada, so we have something solid to rest our battle on, and we are convincing others to do the same. So we have something progressive to show for our activity.

    Srila Prabhupada also said — people without a guru are like two-legged animals. Rudderless. And yet so far — the team of George A. Smith, Rocana, Kailash Chandra, et al. and many of these other living guru-ites, are not able to identify the diksha guru they are currently promoting. So what kind of religion is that, all glories to — nobody pada?

    The good news is — for once — we fully agree with George, animals cannot identify their current diksha guru, … and neither can George A. Smith. Srila Prabhupada says human life begins with “acharyopasanam,” one has to accept and take shelter of the acharya.

    Since George A. Smith cannot even name the current acharya that he is promoting, he has not yet come to the first step of human life. And now it turns out that Circle K’s Liquor Market market people are giving George his shiksha understanding? My goodness! I better get over to Cicle K and get my bottle of peppermint schnops right now, maybe the messiah is behind the counter over there! As for us not lasting, that is what they said in 1978, Purajnana’s opposing these gurus will not last, hmmm, well maybe so and maybe not, this is simply more speculation. ys pd

    Reply
53. Amar Puri says:

    7. January 2013 at 1:45 am

    Bhakta George writes ; ” Srila Prabhupada said that a human being without a philosophy is simply an animal. ”

    And yet Bhakta George fails miserably to explain what is his philosophy and is unable to protect and promote his very own belief system that which he cherishes when his belief system without philosophy has been openly challenged. That is really a shameful act at Bhakta George’s end.

    Thus, I can not say that Bhakta George is simply an animal because Bhakta George chants the Maha Mantra at least as it appears.

    Keep up the good work, Bhakta George.

    Hari BOL…..

    Reply
54. mark says:

    7. January 2013 at 2:23 am

    You can intellectually sophisticate and proudly pontificate until the cow’s come home George, but when you actually learn to debate, including admit when you have been defeated on a point, then your spiritual journey will begin.

    Hare Krsna

    Reply
55. bhakta jarek says:

    7. January 2013 at 3:39 am

    I always enjoy to read and study Your comments dear bhakta George Prabhu. They are so nicely induced by Krishna conscious philosophy, by the genuine appreciation of the Bhagavatha dharma and the real prnciples of the way of Bhagavad viddhi as explained by H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the Person Bhagavatha in his Bhagavatha books. Your last comment is so brilliant too, and I only imagine Srila Prabhupada to be very proud of this masterpiece on the polished and still lowly and somehow lovely biological animal life principles under the banners of yet another cheating religion. Thank You prabhu!
    y.lowly s. bj

    Reply
56. Puranjana dasa says:

    7. January 2013 at 3:10 pm

    As Srila Prabhupada says, everything is tested at the time of death. At the time of death, we Prabhupadanugas can at least call out, “Srila Prabhupada save me.” That should help us for sure. At the very least, we have a fighting chance of someone advocating on our behalf from Vaikuntha, namely Srila Prabhupada coming to our aid.

    Whereas, the living guru-ites sabha like George A. Smith, Rocana and company, at the time of their death, they will have no name to call out at all, they cannot name the guru they promote because there is none for them.

    And much worse than that, they will only be able to call out, “We wasted our entire human existence opposing the rtiviks who wanted to establish the worship of Krishna’s pure devotee, and we wanted people to worship our idea, worship of nobody pada. A zero. A phantasm.” We spent our entire lives blocking and checking others from entering Vaikuntha, we served Satan well.

    And just as it is said, man proposes and God disposes, hence — just as the living guru-ites wanted, a zero, a phantasm, and in sum — nobody-pada — will come to their aid at the time of death. Nobody will advocate for them at all, and worse, they will then be called on the carpet by the agents of God for blocking others from taking shelter of the pure devotee and entering Vaikuntha, which is considered as the most heinous of crimes on the world of reality.

    And the other people on that same carpet with them? They would be the GBC guru program folks who ALSO spent their entire lives, and for example millions of dollars suing us, so they could also block others from taking shelter of the pure devotee and helping others back to Vaikintha. These birds of a feather will flop together. ys pd

    Reply
57. mark says:

    7. January 2013 at 6:37 pm

    The problem with you Bhakta Jarek, is that you and others like you like George are under the illusion that you are so advanced that you can follow only the Bhagavat viddhi, and that the Pancaratrik viddhi is simply optional.

    Thus you pontificate on the Bhagavat viddhi, but an objective observer will note how you condescend to the lower nature and project your own lower nature onto others. You do this because you deny the effect your lower nature still has over you, instead pretending that you are above it, chanting like Haridas thakura, and not in need of Pancaratrik viddhi and Daiva Varnasrama regulations to purify your chanting and make real advancement.

    So instead, you claim to pure Vaisnavism and execution of Bhagavata marg, yet you are rolling around in the mud with us dogs, calling us dogs, and condemning our understanding of the “other viddhi” which Srila Prabhupada spent 50% of his time instructing us to follow.

    I don’t deny the effect my lower nature still has over me from time to time. So you and George subtly pointing out what a primal dog I am and patting yourselves on the back is frankly ridiculous, and all the demigods are shaking their heads in disappointment with your guys.

    But you have freewill to consider to worship your not-so-exalted selves, under the rubric of following an Acarya, and focus on my dog like nature all you want. But if you think of what a dog I am right before your time of death, don’t be surprised if you take birth on 4 legs in my fenced in backyard in your next life. But don’t worry, I will feed you as much prasadam as I can to counteract all the cats you will hunt and eat.

    Reply
58. Mahesh Raja says:

    7. January 2013 at 7:29 pm

    All the folks who are putting stumbling blocks for devotees to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada the PURE DEVOTEE VIA the Ritvik System SHOULD NOTE VERY CAREFULLY the punishment Yamraja will give you is VERY SEVERE.

    You folks think you can get away. It does NOT work like that. Every record is made of your actions and Karma is very intricate. NOBODY gets away. Employees of the of the ISKCON “SALARY PAID” system who operate against Srila Prabhupada WILL suffer VERY heavy. Fruits of Karma action does not take place immediately. Once the seed is put in the ground it takes time to seed then the stem grows then leaves then flowers – THEN fruit. So Karma is like that FRUITIVE result – the fruits of YOUR actions are there AND they WILL fruitify. It is ONLY a question of TIME.

    SB 4.29.73 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
    It is sometimes said that because a child is innocent he is completely pure. ACTUALLY THIS IS NOT THE FACT. THE EFFECTS OF FRUITIVE ACTIVITIES RESERVED IN THE SUBTLE BODY APPEAR IN THREE CONCURRENT STAGES. One is called bija (the root), another is called kuta-stha (the desire), and another is called phalonmukha (about to fructify). The manifest stage is called prarabdha (already in action). In a conscious or unconscious state, the actions of the subtle or gross bodies may not be manifest, but such states cannot be called the liberated state. A child may be innocent, but this does not mean that he is a liberated soul. EVERYTHING IS HELD IN RESERVATION, AND EVERYTHING WILL BECOME MANIFEST IN DUE COURSE OF TIME. Even in the absence of certain manifestations in the subtle body, the objects of sense enjoyment may act. The example has been given of a nocturnal emission, in which the physical senses act even when the physical objects are not manifest. The three modes of material nature may not be manifest in the subtle body, but the contamination of the three modes remains conserved, and in due course of time, it becomes manifest. Even if the reactions of the subtle and gross bodies are not manifest, one does not become free from the material conditions. Therefore it is wrong to say that a child is as good as a liberated soul.

    740927SB.CAL Lectures
    But people are doing that. Without being followed by the acarya, without being followed by the sastras, they become guru, they become swami, they become yogi. It is useless. You cannot get… Here are the process, process is given: tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama… Tada means when you are fixed up in devotional service, then you can get out of these infections. These are infections. In… It is so dangerous infection. Infection, anyone can understand nowadays, scientific days. IF YOU INFECT SOME DISEASE, YOU HAVE TO SUFFER. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE. YOU INFECT TODAY SOMEHOW OR OTHER. NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW, BUT SOME DAY IT WILL COME OUT. IT IS CALLED KUTASTHA, PHALONMUKHA, PRARABDHA, PAPA-BIJA. PAPA-BIJA, REMAINS AS SEED, KUTASTHA. THEN IT IS FRUCTIFYING, PHALONMUKHA. THEN YOU SUFFER, PRARABDHA. THIS IS CALLED PRARABDHA-KARMA, INFECTION. YOU ARE UNDER THE COMPLETE SUBJUGATION OF NATURE. PRAKRTEH KRIYAMANANI GUNAIH KARMANI SARVASAH. THESE GUNAIH. THE PRAKRTI IS FORCING YOU TO WORK BECAUSE YOU HAVE INFECTED A KIND OF GUNA. KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA SAD-ASAD-YONI-JANMASU. KARANAM. WHY ONE MAN IS BORN, ONE LIVING ENTITY IS BORN AS A VERY RICH MAN AND ONE IS BORN AS A DOG? Sad-asad-yoni. Yoni means mother, and bija means father. Yatha yoni yatha bijah. So the every living entity is born–bija and yoni, father and mother. So why there are varieties? Nature is working. Why not one, one kind of living entities? No. Sad-asad-janma-yonisu. There are 8,400,000 of species. One has to take. Tatha dehantara-praptih. YOU HAVE TO CHANGE. BUT WHY ONE IS IN THE LOWER GRADE BIRTH, WHY IN THE HIGHER GRADE? NOW, KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA. THESE GUNA. THESE GUNA, SATTVA-GUNA, RAJO-GUNA.

    721106ND.VRN Lectures
    Pradyumna: “It is stated in the Padma-Purana that there are four kinds of effects to sinful activities, which are listed as follows: (1) the effect which is not yet fructified, (2) the effect which is lying as seed, (3) the effect which is already mature, and (4) the effect which is almost mature. It is also stated that all these four effects…”
    Prabhupada: Kuta-stha-bija, prarabdha… Like that. This is, these are the… OUR EFFECTS. JUST LIKE WE CAN UNDERSTAND IN THE MODERN… JUST LIKE IF YOU INFECT SOME DISEASE, IT BECOMES IMMEDIATELY KUTA-STHA. KUTA-STHA MEANS STOCKED. IN DUE COURSE OF TIME, IT WILL COME OUT, MANIFEST. SIMILARLY, WE ARE ACTING SO MANY SINFUL ACTIVITIES. SOMETIMES THEY COMPLAIN THAT “THIS MAN IS COMMITTING SO MANY SINFUL ACTIVITIES, BUT HE’S HAPPY.” BUT ACTUALLY HE’S ENJOYING THE EFFECTS OF HIS PAST SOMETHING PIOUS. NOW HE’S HAPPY, BUT THAT EFFECT OF THE IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, THAT IS IN STOCK. IT WILL COME OUT IN DUE COURSE OF TIME. THAT IS CALLED KUTA-STHA. Kuta-stha phalonmukha, prarabdha. These are the Sanskrit language. That is being explained here.

    SB 4.29.73 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
    It is sometimes said that because a child is innocent he is completely pure. ACTUALLY THIS IS NOT THE FACT. THE EFFECTS OF FRUITIVE ACTIVITIES RESERVED IN THE SUBTLE BODY APPEAR IN THREE CONCURRENT STAGES. One is called bija (the root), another is called kuta-stha (the desire), and another is called phalonmukha (about to fructify). The manifest stage is called prarabdha (already in action). In a conscious or unconscious state, the actions of the subtle or gross bodies may not be manifest, but such states cannot be called the liberated state. A child may be innocent, but this does not mean that he is a liberated soul. EVERYTHING IS HELD IN RESERVATION, AND EVERYTHING WILL BECOME MANIFEST IN DUE COURSE OF TIME. Even in the absence of certain manifestations in the subtle body, the objects of sense enjoyment may act. The example has been given of a nocturnal emission, in which the physical senses act even when the physical objects are not manifest. The three modes of material nature may not be manifest in the subtle body, but the contamination of the three modes remains conserved, and in due course of time, it becomes manifest. Even if the reactions of the subtle and gross bodies are not manifest, one does not become free from the material conditions. Therefore it is wrong to say that a child is as good as a liberated soul.

    740927SB.CAL Lectures
    But people are doing that. Without being followed by the acarya, without being followed by the sastras, they become guru, they become swami, they become yogi. It is useless. You cannot get… Here are the process, process is given: tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama… Tada means when you are fixed up in devotional service, then you can get out of these infections. These are infections. In… It is so dangerous infection. Infection, anyone can understand nowadays, scientific days. IF YOU INFECT SOME DISEASE, YOU HAVE TO SUFFER. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE. YOU INFECT TODAY SOMEHOW OR OTHER. NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW, BUT SOME DAY IT WILL COME OUT. IT IS CALLED KUTASTHA, PHALONMUKHA, PRARABDHA, PAPA-BIJA. PAPA-BIJA, REMAINS AS SEED, KUTASTHA. THEN IT IS FRUCTIFYING, PHALONMUKHA. THEN YOU SUFFER, PRARABDHA. THIS IS CALLED PRARABDHA-KARMA, INFECTION. YOU ARE UNDER THE COMPLETE SUBJUGATION OF NATURE. PRAKRTEH KRIYAMANANI GUNAIH KARMANI SARVASAH. THESE GUNAIH. THE PRAKRTI IS FORCING YOU TO WORK BECAUSE YOU HAVE INFECTED A KIND OF GUNA. KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA SAD-ASAD-YONI-JANMASU. KARANAM. WHY ONE MAN IS BORN, ONE LIVING ENTITY IS BORN AS A VERY RICH MAN AND ONE IS BORN AS A DOG? Sad-asad-yoni. Yoni means mother, and bija means father. Yatha yoni yatha bijah. So the every living entity is born–bija and yoni, father and mother. So why there are varieties? Nature is working. Why not one, one kind of living entities? No. Sad-asad-janma-yonisu. There are 8,400,000 of species. One has to take. Tatha dehantara-praptih. YOU HAVE TO CHANGE. BUT WHY ONE IS IN THE LOWER GRADE BIRTH, WHY IN THE HIGHER GRADE? NOW, KARANAM GUNA-SANGO ‘SYA. THESE GUNA. THESE GUNA, SATTVA-GUNA, RAJO-GUNA.

    721106ND.VRN Lectures
    Pradyumna: “It is stated in the Padma-Purana that there are four kinds of effects to sinful activities, which are listed as follows: (1) the effect which is not yet fructified, (2) the effect which is lying as seed, (3) the effect which is already mature, and (4) the effect which is almost mature. It is also stated that all these four effects…”
    Prabhupada: Kuta-stha-bija, prarabdha… Like that. This is, these are the… OUR EFFECTS. JUST LIKE WE CAN UNDERSTAND IN THE MODERN… JUST LIKE IF YOU INFECT SOME DISEASE, IT BECOMES IMMEDIATELY KUTA-STHA. KUTA-STHA MEANS STOCKED. IN DUE COURSE OF TIME, IT WILL COME OUT, MANIFEST. SIMILARLY, WE ARE ACTING SO MANY SINFUL ACTIVITIES. SOMETIMES THEY COMPLAIN THAT “THIS MAN IS COMMITTING SO MANY SINFUL ACTIVITIES, BUT HE’S HAPPY.” BUT ACTUALLY HE’S ENJOYING THE EFFECTS OF HIS PAST SOMETHING PIOUS. NOW HE’S HAPPY, BUT THAT EFFECT OF THE IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, THAT IS IN STOCK. IT WILL COME OUT IN DUE COURSE OF TIME. THAT IS CALLED KUTA-STHA. Kuta-stha phalonmukha, prarabdha. These are the Sanskrit language. That is being explained here.

    Note: Srila Prabhupada is PURE VAISNAVA Brahmana and to steal his properties, conspire to steal his Disciples will have VERY dangerous results upon the individuals:
    KB 64 The Story of King Nrga
    At this time, Lord Krsna was present among His relatives who were members of the ksatriya class. To teach them through the exemplary character of King Nrga, He said: “Even though a ksatriya king may be as powerful as fire, it is not possible for him to usurp the property of a brahmana and utilize it for his own purpose. If this is so, how can ordinary kings, who falsely think of themselves the most powerful beings within the material world, usurp a brahmana’s property? I do not think that taking poison is as dangerous as taking a brahmana’s property. For ordinary poison there is treatment–one can be relieved from its effects; BUT IF ONE DRINKS THE POISON OF TAKING A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, THERE IS NO REMEDY FOR THE MISTAKE. The perfect example was King Nrga. He was very powerful and very pious, but due to the small mistake of unknowingly usurping a brahmana’s cow, he was condemned to the abominable life of a lizard. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; but the arani fire ignited by the spiritual potency of a brahmana can burn to ashes the whole family of a person who provokes such a brahmana.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “IF SOMEONE EVEN TOUCHES A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, HE IS RUINED FOR THREE GENERATIONS. HOWEVER, IF A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY IS FORCIBLY TAKEN AWAY, THE TAKER’S FAMILY FOR TEN GENERATIONS BEFORE HIM AND FOR TEN GENERATIONS AFTER HIM WILL BE SUBJECT TO RUINATION. On the other hand, if someone becomes a Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will become liberated.”
    Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. THEREFORE I INSTRUCT YOU, ALL MY BOYS AND RELATIVES PRESENT HERE, DO NOT, EVEN BY MISTAKE, TAKE THE POSSESSION OF A BRAHMANA AND THEREBY POLLUTE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY. If someone even wishes to possess such property, let alone attempts to take it away by force, the duration of his life will be reduced. He will be defeated by his enemies, and after being bereft of his royal position, WHEN HE GIVES UP HIS BODY HE WILL BECOME A SERPENT. A serpant gives trouble to all other living entities. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or cuts you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”

    Reply
59. Amar Puri says:

    7. January 2013 at 10:24 pm

    Thank you Mahesh Raja Prabhu, for sharing such a beautiful VANI – lecture of Srila Prabhupada. These are all there for every one who so ever may like to take a heed in order to make ones life sublime.

    Those who are serious and sincere must follow Srila Prabhupada’s VANI and those who are simply desirous to enjoy and ignore the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada shall be dealt with as per the Laws of Nature.

    I agree with this conclusion ; ” Note: Srila Prabhupada is PURE VAISNAVA Brahmana and to steal his properties, conspire to steal his Disciples will have VERY dangerous results upon the individuals: ”

    All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

    Hari BOL. …….. OM TAT SAT.

    Reply
60. Puranjana dasa says:

    8. January 2013 at 3:41 am

    Srila Prabhupada: There are many renegades from the Brahma-sampradāya whose only business is to make men more forgetful of the Lord and thus entangle them more and more in material existence. Such persons are never dear to the Lord, and the Lord sends them deeper into the darkest region of matter so that such envious demons may not be able to know the Supreme Lord.

    Anyone, however, preaching the mission of the Lord in the line of the Brahma-sampradāya is always dear to the Lord, and the Lord, being satisfied with such a preacher of the authorized bhakti cult, shakes hands with him in great satisfaction.

    [PD: Good job Mahesh prabhu with your citations above. And this verse above we cited here augments the quotes Mahesh prabhu gave, i.e. these renegades are trying to get people to forget the Lord and his dear most servant Srila Prabhupada. And so we find that these renegades, ok like the GBC folks, their writers like Ravindra Swarupa, many Narayana Maharaja folks, and of course Rocana and his clones, they refer to Srila Prabhupada as: posthumous, post-samadhi, post mortem and and so on and so forth.

    As Srila Prabhupada says, these Gaudiya Matha’s “living guru” renegade folks idea has been “kill guru and become guru.” So this “killing of guru” may be performed with their poisonous preaching that the guru is posthumous, dead and gone, …. so follow me, I am the living Mr. GBC guru or Mr. Rocana, I am the wonderful living body.

    However, as George A. Smith pointed out quite nicely, even a primate has a living body, however that does not make him a guru. The quote above and Mahesha’s quotes are all stern warnings on all this, these renegades who preach that guru is dead are “kill guru and become guru,” they are not only very sinful people, in fact they are the most sinful people on the planet “these rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society.” They are destined for the lowest regions, for their process of “making people forget” God and guru. ys pd

    Reply
61. bhakta jarek says:

    8. January 2013 at 8:08 am

    The whole ritvik ferment needed of course it’s time to be born out of B.R. Sridhar Swamis mind (it took whole 10 years, though alleged certain conviction about the whole thing by Yashodanandan, or Gaurapanditdas das, who spoke not a one word about this, when even Gaurapanditdas submitted his wife to be initiated by his beloved senior Tamal, what a shaky conviction in our ritvik prophet heros mind) , then it was picked up by the 3 brahmins from West Cost from Vedic Village where 5 guys where chasing after one women who was supposed to be their common wife. Those guys became thus the second bastard generation of Swami B.R. Sridhar, the destroyer of Gaudiya Matha, the architect of the fake acharya scam and thus the godfather of FISKCON. Befor his death finally out of his mind, which was in fact like a sink of iniquity another “useful and pragmatical ” revelation was born, His followers are making circus here and are slowly getting mad, enough to read their comments. Complete madness.

    Reply
62. Puranjana dasa says:

    8. January 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Thanks Bhakta Jarek. Yes, this is getting a little ritvik-diculous, these folks never EVER tell us whose “worship of the sum total of the demigods acharya” system they do follow? We are at least worshiping a pure devotee, whereas the GBC and Gaudiya Matha folks are saying that is complete madness, ok, but they are apparently worshiping nobody whatsoever? They always forgot to tell us — who or whom should be worshiped instead of our idea?

    If our promoting Srila Prabhupada is not the correct idea, then they have to prove that by showing us the correct instruction and current example of the system they are describing, but they and their parrots like Rocana, George A. Simth and all their assembled living guru’s King’s hoses and King’s men, cannot put their living guru humpty dumpty together, at all, they never show us where the right idea is being implemented. Ever!

    And thanks for agreeing with what we are saying about Sridhara Maharaja — in fact what we said all along about Sridhara Maharaja, that means you are agreeing with us. You say that the GBC gurus are all totally bogus because all the GBC’s gurus went to Sridhara in 1978. We agreed with that a long time ago, we never said we supported Sridhara Maharaja and his zonal guru ideas etc. Yes, you are agreeing with what we say.

    So now you are with us, both Sridhara Maharaja and the GBC gurus are all bogus for stating that the founder father (SM) of the 1936 homosexual guru imbroglio is their “Higher Authority” — as the GBC gurus did in the 1978 documents. Incidently the GBC gurus never officially recanted all these documents co-penned between them and Sridhara Maharaja, for example, their joint 1980 paper the GBC wrote with Sridhara “The Mahajanas Have Difficulties,” perhaps the most offensive document ever produced by anyone.

    We already said a long time ago that the GBC agrees with Sridhara — and so they are bogus? You are agreeing with what we said the whole time. That also means you are agreeing with us, both the GBC and the Gaudiya Matha living gurus are bogus, since they collaborated together. Yes, you are right, Sridhara’s telling the GBC to vote in gurus is bogus, and so we are not connected to Sridhara and his promoting of the GBC’s zonal gurus etc.

    What we are asking everyone now is, who should be promoted as the acharya instead? How come these people never, never, never, never, never — tell us the name of the guru we should now be promoting? Sorry, we are not going to worship, nobody and nothing as they are promoting. Thanks for giving credit to the ritviks, yes, we are the original people to show that the Sridhara / GBC guru system is bogus. We exposed that way back in 1984 with mine and Sulochana’s writings. No one else was exposing this bogus connection — except us. Thanks for giving us credit here. ys pd

    Reply
63. Charles Dowson says:

    8. January 2013 at 4:52 pm

    Disciplic Diamonds

    Service to Srila Prabhupada is eternal
    Service to an ISKCON guru gets you paid.

    Obedience to Srila Prabhupada is eternal
    Obedience to an ISKCON guru depends.

    Thinking of Srila Prabhupada at the time of death
    Is like thinking of Krsna at the time of death.
    Thinking of an ISKCON guru at the time of death
    Is like thinking of an ISKCON guru at the time of death.

    Some ISKCON gurus are disciples of ISKCON gurus
    Srila Prabhupada disciples are disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

    ISKCON says that Srila Prabhupadas July 9th letter
    Is contrary to Vedic Tradition.
    Vedic Tradition says ISKCON gurus are contrary to Srila Prabhupada.

    Srila Prabhupada is to the world Krsnas Matchless Gift
    ISKCON gurus to the world are mayas Matchless Theft.

    When an ISKCON guru falls down
    Srila Prabhupada steps up.

    ISKCONs changed books are intoxicating
    Literary, Sastric, Downfall or LSD

    By changing Srila Prabhupadas books ISKCONs
    Idiocy is revealed.
    By reading Srila Prabhupadas original books
    Srila Prabhupada and Krsna are revealed

    Anyone acting as a thief to defend Srila Prabhupada and Krsna
    Gives everything to the world, in other words
    The devotee gives back what the thief has taken away.

    ISKCON gurus deny the ability to take you back to Godhead
    Srila Prabhupada denies the ability of ISKCON gurus.

    And finally ladies and gentlemen the shiniest of these diamonds.

    Better to be in maya thinking you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada
    Than to be a disciple of someone in maya.

    Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa

    “ISKCON gurus are like deciduous trees….there’s always the fall.”

    “Some ISKCON gurus are like Santa Clause….when they’re playing with their dear.”

    “Some ISKCON gurus are like clowns and some even do tricks.”

    “And lastly until the next show….How do you know when your ISKCON guru is dead? Give up?
    When after initiating you he says that Srila Prabhupada will take you back to Godhead because you need a living guru.”

    Reply
64. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    8. January 2013 at 5:17 pm

    Puranjana dasa says: Thanks for giving credit to the ritviks, yes, we are the original people to show that the Sridhara / GBC guru system is bogus.

    Not only that, but the ritviks were the first to:

    1. Publish Srila Prabhupada’s July 9, 1977 directive on the Internet (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=25).

    2. Publish Srila Prabhupada’s will on the Internet (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=3v).

    3. Get a “Children of ISKCON vs. ISKCON” child abuse lawsuit started. (http://surrealist.org/jpgs05/complaint_state.pdf).

    4. Make Srila Prabhupada’s books available on the Internet (Pre-1978 versions – http://causelessmercy.com/).

    5. Publish Srila Prabhupada’s lectures/conversations on CD-ROMs (http://krishnastore.com/prabhupada-dvd-and-mp3-library-h-krishna-402.html).

    6. Make Srila Prabhupada’s lectures/conversations available on the Internet as free downloads (http://causelessmercy.com/?P=_PrabhupadasMP3Links).

    7. Publish Srila Prabhupada’s videos as DVDs (http://krishnastore.com/prabhupada-dvd-and-mp3-library-h-krishna-402.html)

    8. Make Srila Prabhupada’s videos available on the Internet as free downloads (http://causelessmercy.com/v/).

    9. Make Srila Prabhupada’s videos available on YouTube (http://causelessmercy.com/v/).

    10. Synchronize Srila Prabhupada’s lectures/conversations with their corresponding transcriptions (A work in progress – http://causelessmercy.com/a/)

    11. Make it possible to toggle between Sanskrit diacritics and no diacritics at the touch of a button. (For example, try going to http://causelessmercy.com/?P=Bg and pressing the “D” key.)*

    * As far as I know, this diacritics toggle feature is unique to the entire Internet!

    Reply
65. Mahesh Raja says:

    8. January 2013 at 11:30 pm

    This is a REPLY to Rocana Prabhu on his COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of BOTH Guru AND Ritvik Issue:

    77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
    The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”

    Amar Puri Prabhu wrote to Rocana Prabhu and Rocana Prabhu Replies:
    “So who gave you permission, Amar Puri, to decide that the system will be changed upon his departure so that names get sent to someone else? Or not sent? Or whatever?” — Rocana

    Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada had ALREADY given instruction of HOW he wanted the prospective disciples ACCEPTED. The system was ALREADY in place. Besides this, use of LITTLE COMMON-SENSE is neccesary WHAT sort of person can REPRESENT Srila Prabhupada. If REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA falls down he CAN be REPLACED:

    Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE is the Ritvik Representative as per July 9th 1977 Order Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
    Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. IN OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT ONE MUST BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP THE FOUR PILLARS OF SINFUL LIFE-ILLICIT SEX, MEAT-EATING, INTOXICATION AND GAMBLING. IN WESTERN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY, WE FIRST OBSERVE WHETHER A POTENTIAL DISCIPLE IS PREPARED TO FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. THEN HE IS GIVEN THE NAME OF A VAISNAVA SERVANT AND INITIATED TO CHANT THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, AT LEAST SIXTEEN ROUNDS DAILY. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. HE IS THEN RECOMMENDED FOR A SECOND INITIATION, DURING WHICH A SACRED THREAD IS OFFERED AND THE DISCIPLE IS ACCEPTED AS A BONA FIDE BRAHMANA.

    770528me.vrn Conversations
    Tamala Krsna: Of course, IF SOMEONE HAS A FALLDOWN, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down…
    Prabhupada: HE SHOULD BE REPLACED.
    Tamala Krsna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious falldown, not some minor discrepancy.
    Prabhupada: THEY MUST BE ALL IDEAL ACARYA-LIKE. IN THE BEGINNING WE HAVE DONE FOR WORKING. Now we should be very cautious. ANYONE WHO IS DEVIATING, HE CAN BE REPLACED.

    One can replace a Representative of Acarya if he deviates BUT one can NOT replace DIKSA Guru because he MUST be a Mahabhagavata OTHERWISE he is NOT DIKSA GURU. It is 3rd offense in chanting to accept any other than a Mahabhagavata:

    NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
    The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.

    Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
    MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
    brahmano vai gurur nrnam
    sarvesam eva lokanam
    asau pujyo yatha harih
    maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
    sarva-yajnesu diksitah
    sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
    na guruh syad avaisnavah

    ((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))

    Rocana Dasa in his “Church of Rtvik”:
    NOI 5

    “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)

    “Nectar of Instruction, Text 5

    If one reads the above Purport, which contains the statement used by the HKS to support their position, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that a guru should ideally be an uttama-adhikari. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Himself an uttama-adhikari and a Sampradaya Acarya. At the time Nectar of Instruction was published, the reader had a choice to take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada also clearly says in this quote that there are gurus in all three categories: kanistha, madhyama, and uttama-adhikari. He does not state that he is referring here to diksa gurus rather than siksa gurus. He does state that the problem with having a guru that is not uttama-adhikari is that the initiated can’t advance beyond the level of their guru’s realization. Consequently, he cautions that the disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as their guru. He does not say, however, that gurus in the other two categories are bogus, or are not part of the sampradaya, or are just pretending to be gurus but are actually not gurus. Clearly, the Hare Krishna Society would like you believe that he is saying these things. While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. ”

    Mahesh: we will just take a segment of his ERRONEOUS understanding of the DIKSA Guru AND PROVE HIM COMPELETELY WRONG THAT KANISTHA AND MADHYAMA ARE **NOT** DIKSA GURU as he SPECULATES:

    Rocana Dasa: “While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. ”

    Mahesh:

    NOI 5

    “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)

    Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:

    1)”..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”

    2)“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.

    The question is can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!

    So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa?
    Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is in MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge. What you do NOT have you can NOT give. And it is Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.

    Definition of Diksa:

    Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
    Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

    divyam jnanam yato dadyat
    kuryat papasya sanksayam
    tasmad dikseti sa prokta
    desikais tattva-kovidaih

    “Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”

    Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service
    Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.

    So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
    1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
    2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity

    Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION GIVE DIKSA -BY WHICH- ONE BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

    Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:

    Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

    SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
    The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.

    Q2) If a Brahmana(Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?

    Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.

    Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination

    Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?

    Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.

    770214r2.may Conversations
    Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
    Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
    Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
    Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
    Prabhupada: Kanistha?
    Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
    Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
    Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
    Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
    arcayam eva haraye
    pujam yah sraddhayehate
    na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
    sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
    The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
    Hari-sauri: No question of?
    Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.

    760206mw.may Conversations
    Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
    Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
    Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
    Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.

    Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
    PURPORT
    This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:

    dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
    amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
    yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
    vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya

    “A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”

    Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:

    samo damas tapah saucam
    ksantir arjavam eva ca
    jnanam vijnanam astikyam
    brahma-karma svabhava-jam

    “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)

    In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:

    samo damas tapah saucam
    ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
    jnana-vijnana-santosah
    satyastikye dvisad gunah

    “Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”

    730828BG.LON Lectures
    So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.

    SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
    The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.

    Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
    So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA – AUTOMATICALLY.

    Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

    760711CC.NY Lectures
    Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

    When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

    Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
    The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

    Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births – NOT so cheap.

    SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
    As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.

    NoI 5
    A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

    Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
    diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
    sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
    TRANSLATION
    “At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.

    TEXT 193
    sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
    aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
    TRANSLATION
    “When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

    TEXT 194
    martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
    niveditatma vicikirsito me
    tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
    mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
    TRANSLATION
    ” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’

    PURPORT
    This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).

    Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
    SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
    In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.

    NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.

    Nectar of Devotion 7 – Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles

    REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”

    Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport – Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:

    “By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.

    Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?

    Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.

    ‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
    Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.

    When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.

    Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
    KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
    Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

    75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
    The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

    Furthermore, here is my reply to Dusyanta Dasa which shows clearly that VAPU is NOT necessary and since Rocana Prabhu is Vapuvadi ALSO this will point his ERROR in understanding that VAPU (Physical form) of Srila Prabhupada is NOT necessary to TRANSMIT Diksa (DIVYA JNANA):

    Duysanta dasa: The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant. So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship????Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book.

    Mahesh: This is another concoction from your Vapuvadi camp. WHERE does Srila Prabhupada say in his books that VAPU (physical form) is requirement for TRANSMISSION of Divya Jnana(Diksa)? Go on prove it Prabhu – we want evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s books ONLY.

    SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
    The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.

    Note:In any case what the Vapuvadi camp got was FORMALITY INITIATION which Srila Prabhupada states is “That is not very important thing”. But the Vapuvadi camp want to make it that THIS is the main thing.
    761016iv.cha Conversations
    Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.

    SB 4.8.54 P Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest
    Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.

    Note: another thing is this FORMALITY INITIATION (1st and 2nd initiation) was conducted by representatives in many cases. So Srila Prabhupada was NOT EVEN at each and every place for fire sacrifice and name giving. Not only that BUT even the Gayatri Mantra was given in Tape and the instruction was given t o Temple Presidents.

    Duysanta dasa: The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru. So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.

    Mahesh: So now YOU Vapuvadi camp must hunt for another Diksa guru according to your OWN statement Srila Prabhupada disappeared: “So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.” These Vapuvadis have ZERO level of understanding on DIKSA.

    Duysanta dasa: All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem. But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
    Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins?
    What is the point in being so judgemental and agressive ,how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves?Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.

    Mahesh: That is your concocted opinion from Vapuvadi camp. You have to prove that Srila Prabhupada’s physically presence( Vapu) is required to give Diksa. Prove it from Srila Prabhupada’s books.

    Adi 1.99 The Spiritual Masters
    One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.

    Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
    Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
    Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA

    SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
    The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

    Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
    THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

    690113LE.LA Lectures
    Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.

    Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.

    Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
    Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

    Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA):

    740615rc.par Conversations
    Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
    Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.

    72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
    Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.

    EVEN A SLIGHT COMMON-SENSE CAN TELLYOU THAT DIVYA (TRANSCENDENTAL) JNANA CAN ONLY COME FROM TRANSCENDENTAL PERSON. Kanistha is NOT on TRANSCENDENTAL platform. Madhyama is MIDWAY and Uttama Adhikari is TRANSCENDENTAL BY DEFINITION:

    661121BG.NY Lectures
    And uttamam. Uttamam means “which is transcendental.” Ut means “trans-,” and tama means “darkness.” So uttama means “the knowledge which is beyond this material darkness.” This material world is called darkness, and when the knowledge surpasses this material world, material knowledge, that is really called uttama.

    760420BG.MEL Lectures
    Pavitram idam uttamam. Uttamam. Ut mean udgata, transcendental, and tama means this material world, darkness.

    “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

    Reply
66. SG says:

    9. January 2013 at 5:37 am

    The problem with the ritviks is that to date they have not produced a single piece
    of evidence to prove that Srila Prabhupada wanted the ritvik initiation to continue after his departure and the initiated to be his disciples, a procedure that
    he authorized or ordered his senior disciples to preform on his behalf ( in view of
    his inability to conduct it directly due to failing health etc.) during his last months
    on this planet. Shouting , screaming and cursing and mindlessly quoting from his books is no proof of evidence. If you are sincerely saying that this is Srila Prabhupada directive then produce the evidence and proof us wrong. Its that simple.

    In the Caitanya Caritamrta – Adi Lila, volume 1 ( 1974 first edition ), the first chapter deals with ” The Spiritual Masters “. In that chapter there is a statement that Srila Prabhupada made. It is a clear instruction to the devotees and disciples. It is timeless.

    The quote is as follows –

    ( “It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself”. )

    Here Srila Prabhupada says one should accept a spiritual master and serve him
    directly and he emphasis its importance with words ” imperative ” and ” essential ”
    and he continues by saying that if a devotee (like myself a prabhupadnuga) have no chance of serving a spiritual master directly one should serve by remembering his
    instructions ( nothing said about ritvik initiation and becoming his disciple) and
    further Srila Prabhupada declares that there is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself.

    ( “In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.” )

    Here his initiated disciple should take note ( about 5,000 of them ) especially those
    who have left Srila Prabhupada’s shelter and have taken re initiation and those
    who have disobeyed and broken their vow or promise to him. Your business
    is to follow and repeat what your spiritual master and the previous acharyas have said. Not interpret his words or instructions and become more than your guru.

    ( “If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master,
    he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never
    go back to Godhead.” )

    So, who is Srila Prabhupada referring to as “consulting anyone else, including
    a spiritual master” – any current bona fide gurus, if available ????, the previous
    acharyas ????, his god brothers ????, his qualified disciples if any ????, his
    original translated books ???? etc., its left to the readers understanding. The rest of the quote speaks for itself.

    ( “It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions.” )

    This is where the GBC appointed so called gurus and their so called disciples fail miserably, Big Time!

    ( “Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions.” )

    Currently being practiced by the GBC of Iskcon – There goes the spiritual master’s words of direction being the pride of the disciple, out of the window. If these
    senior disciples in GBC show such bad example by not showing respect and not following the words of direction of their own spiritual master then how are we to follow such people or show respect to them.

    ( “One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.” )

    Here Srila Prabhupada again declares and emphasis ( in his own words) that
    one should and must try to find a genuinely bona fide qualified spiritual master
    for actual advancement in spiritual understanding and if you notice carefully not
    a word about ritvik initiation and becoming his disciples.

    It is for this reason that i say the ritviks are lairs for they are lying about
    ritvik being ordered by Srila Prabhupada for future initiation after his
    departure ( to which they have not produced any evidence ) and cheaters
    because they are cheating the devotees by claiming that by ritvik initiation
    the devotees become Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ( also no evidence).

    By above quote/evidence if one claims him or herself to be a Prabhupadanuga
    simply a follower of Srila Prabhupada for lack of or in absence of a bona fide qualified spiritual master,
    it is understandable, Srila Prabhupada himself have
    already said to remember his instructions but to claim a ritvik, well then
    there is no difference between what the iskcon GBC was and is doing with its
    appointed gurus and the ritviks, with its initiation and its claim the initiate
    becoming Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Both in the same boat but on the opposite
    side of each other trying to cheat everyone into believing that ” Srila Prabhupada
    said so”.

    HARE KRSNA

    Reply
67. bhakta jarek says:

    9. January 2013 at 8:56 am

    Dear Mahes Prabhu thank you for the nice quotations, sastric arguments and glorification of our Acarya , the Founder of ISKCOn, H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. However I don’t see and have never seen in your -ritvik argiments a singlest proof to your idea of formal posthumous diksha initiation so called “final order”. No singlest one. There is of course a lot of feeling and good intentions in you, but far more zealotry in your arguments of which most look like taken or inherited from christian background of most of the founders and followers of the ritvik sect. I humbly suggest before you spoil everything have a humble look at the arguments of your more experienced godbrothers like Sriman Rocana das prabhu, or Kailsa candra das prabhu, and few others, your choice.
    y.s. bj

    Reply
68. Bhakta Hugh says:

    9. January 2013 at 12:51 pm

    SG: “It is for this reason that i say the ritviks are lairs for they are lying about ritvik being ordered by Srila Prabhupada for future initiation after his departure (to which they have not produced any evidence)”

    “Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “rittik”-representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
    • His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
    • His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
    • His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
    • His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
    • His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
    • His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
    • His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
    • His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
    • His Holiness Harikesa Swami
    • His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
    • His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
    In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book. (July 9th, 1977, approved, signed)

    SG:”and cheaters because they are cheating the devotees by claiming that by ritvik initiation the devotees become Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ( also no evidence).”

    “The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.” (July 9th, 1977, approved, signed)

    Nothing new in this evidence as Srila Prabhupada always said that he is the initiator for ISKCON:

    “The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 4/8/1975)

    “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

    What Srila Prabhupada actually never said was that the above state of affairs would automatically be terminated on his departure, and without such a statement from Srila Prabhupada, the situation established above by Srila Prabhupada remains. Please note that Srila Prabhupada has given his answer here in relation to the institution of ISKCON, and not only in relation to while he was physically present:

    “I am the spiritual master of this institution”

    “and all the members of the society”

    Consequently this remains the situation Srila Prabhupada intended for the ISKCON institution – that every member of ISKCON would become initiated by him – unless he subsequently gave an order changing this state of affairs by authorizing successor gurus. And as has been previously demonstrated such an order was never given. Rather the only order was for ritviks to facilitate Srila Prabhupada’s statement that “all members of the society” are supposed to be ‘initiated’ by, and become the disciples of, himself:

    “Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus, he appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement for the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.” (His Holiness Tamala Krishna Goswami Maharaja, December 3rd 1980)

    Reply
69. Mahesh Raja says:

    9. January 2013 at 12:59 pm

    SG and Bhakta Jarek please read:

    680312iv.sf Conversations
    Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are INITIATED by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru.

    We advise THE DEVOTEES to worship Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA GURU: LUNATICS can worship their OWN kind.

    “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

    Reply
70. Puranjana dasa says:

    9. January 2013 at 2:44 pm

    However I don’t see and have never seen in your -ritvik argiments a singlest proof to your idea of formal posthumous diksha initiation

    [PD: There you have it, Srila Prabhupada is posthumous, so we need to follow Rocana’s idea and worship nobody as the guru, which is the proposal of Rocana, Kailash Chandra and others who never, ever mention the name of the guru they are promoting. Srila Prabhupada says if people are blocking others from the path of bhakti they are going to the lowest of hells. ys pd]

    Reply
71. Bhakta Hugh says:

    9. January 2013 at 3:06 pm

    4. Make Srila Prabhupada’s books available on the Internet (Pre-1978 versions — http://causelessmercy.com/).

    Have you checked this claim?
    You will find the unrevised Pre-1978 versions here ….

    http://krishna.org/category/prabhupada/books/free-pdf-downloads/

    Reply
72. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    9. January 2013 at 6:07 pm

    Bhakta Hugh says:

    4. Make Srila Prabhupada’s books available on the Internet (Pre-1978 versions — http://causelessmercy.com/).

    Have you checked this claim?
    You will find the unrevised Pre-1978 versions here ….

    http://krishna.org/category/prabhupada/books/free-pdf-downloads/

    http://causelessmercy.com/ published Srila Prabhupada’s books on the Internet in 2006, several years before anyone else.

    BTW, http://krishna.org/ is also a ritvik site.

    Reply
73. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    9. January 2013 at 6:15 pm

    SG and Bhakta Jarek Prabhus, if http://rtvik.com/ doesn’t convince you that Srila Prabhupada prescribed “ritvik henceforward” for future initiations within ISKCON, then probably nothing will.

    ISKCON Bangalore has proven that Srila Prabhupada’s glorious ritvik system of initiations works very well, even under less-than-ideal conditions.

    Reply
74. george a. smith says:

    9. January 2013 at 7:10 pm

    “Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. […] the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called disksa-guru.”

    (Lord Krishna Krsna Book 80)

    In as much as you may accept the above quoted statement to be true then you may accept Srila Prabhupada to be my spiritual master and initiating guru, and that is how I accept it, but formally I am not an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada for by the time that I was ready to accept initiation and even though Srila Prabhupada was still physically present, initiations had already been put on hold and I was advised that I would have to wait to be initiated, and I well knew what was meant by that, that I would have to wait to be initiated until after Srila Prabhupada had “died”.

    But my master can never die and I was not interested in taking initiation from any of those who were already planning to to initiate for themselves, all of the disciples waiting to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada. How should I be, when gifted as I was with spiritual vision by Krishna’s grace and Srila Prabhuapadas mercy I could already see that they were unqualified rascals and that they were only following for ulterior motives.

    Hansadutta was the one of them who stood directly right in front of me when my eyes were at first opened in this way. The same Hansadutta who when Srila Prabhupada had been asked what Hansadutta wanted had responded: “Hansadutta wants me to die.” The same Hansadutta that you accept as one of your authorities and award a high place to. So you cannot even hope to B.S. me prabhus and your only hope is that you will be able to B.S. enough of the innocent to assure you of whatever position that you enjoy within the Rtvik movement.

    Of the impermanent there is no duration.
    In the absence of existential pressure openly prejudice asserts certitude. So it is that on the one hand that you attempt to create existential pressure by both making the innocent think that there is firstly any need of you and then brow beating them, as you have even attempted to do to me into thinking that there is any need for them to make a quick decision in your favor.

    On the other hand, by your continued focus on ISKCON’s litany over the last thirty some odd years and by your continuing to highlight how insane and demoniac is both their practice of rubber stamping and many of their rubber stamped you hope to create such a prejudice as that it will even persuade those who are so foolish as to listen to you that the time honored and traditional practice of initiations as it has continued since thew time of Lord Brahma is now impractical and at an end, and you try very hard to make Srila Prabhupada do all this later work for you and you rely upon the literary efforts of very flawed individuals to confuse and convince those whom you hope to feed off of for the next few years, weeks, days or moments of your already damned existences.

    Did I miss anything?

    Oh yes, the “living guru” thing, which, if you examine it highlights the complete and utter ridiculousness of your position. As was mentioned your continual repetition of ISKCON’s crimes and your pointing of your fingers at all of the Zonals and any ISKCON guru who happens to fall with such gleeful delight doesn’t really prove that there aren’t any, living gurus that is, because as soon as there are, or as soon as anyone recognizes that there even might be it shifts the focus off of taking initiation via the Rtvik method to one of seeking out the living guru and taking initiation from a pure devotee of Krishna who is physically present, which is something that any sane and honest person would much rather prefer.

    So of course you would be all over and ganging up on anyone who came on to one of your sites with that “living guru” thing, questioning the authority of his quotation to mask your real concern which is to mask from your hoodwinked audience (you hope) that the point that was being made was one of guru-tattva, independent of whomever happened to have originated that quotation, whether Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati or not. Just like the Sun rising over America is not American but is only the Sun.

    You hope that your audience will not understand this just as you hope that one of your Rtvik movements living saints stiff armed Srila Prabhupada, walked out on his service and who then only after Srila Prabhupadas had physically left started up depicting himself as being Srila Prabhupadas best man when in truth he couldn’t stand Srila Prabhupada.

    You know some degree of brain function is required just to maintain motor function. Whether or now anyone who is as stupid as you would like them to be would still have enough brain function to keep them breathing is questionable and we will just have to wait and see.

    What your also forgetting or hoping very desperately that I am not aware of is that even though in 1977 there weren’t any pure devotees now there are. We have Srila Prabhupada’s word on it. Not his disciples and not his disciples children but among his disciples children’s children there would be pure devotee of Krishna.

    Shits the focus completely, both of those who are sincerely looking for a spiritual master to take initiation from and those who are looking for a spiritual master so they can kill him (or her). So yes, even if we knew on any do you think that we would tell someone like Puranjana who only seems to have any use for his spiritual master after his spiritual master was allegedly murdered by Puranjana’s friends.

    Eliminating the competition requires first that one must locate them and preferably when they are young and defenseless, preferably just little babies. Isn’t that what the Putanas prefer.

    So there are pure devotees living among us now.
    There was something else…

    Reply
75. Amar Puri says:

    9. January 2013 at 9:15 pm

    Bhakta George,

    Hare Krishna. AGTSP.

    As it seems from your writings that your material eyes are totally blinded because you are unable to see the Pure Devotee who is present in his VANI. His Vani initiates in to the Transcendental knowledge to every one who so ever wishes to come in contact with such a Pure Devotee via His Instructions, VANI, Books etc. etc. etc. That is the purpose of the Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada to give the Transcendental knowledge to every one including yourself via his Instructions and ….. ALAS…. you refuse to see and accept such Pure Devotee Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions being present.

    You may quote as much as you wish but what is the use of these quotes when you disobey to accept such Quotes you are quoting. That means simply you are indeed Transcendentally blind who refuses to accept such quotes coming from the present bona fide Acaraya Srila Prabhupada. I have no idea what type of another living guru you , your associate like Rocana and so many others are waiting for the living guru to be appeared before you.

    As you quote ; ” Just like the Sun rising over America is not American but is only the Sun.” Similarly, the SUN like Transcendental Instructions of Srila Prabhupada is rising all over the Planet Earth. There is no other room Srila Prabhupada had left for any body to fill in the gab because Srila Prabhupada’s SUN like Instructions are initiating every one who so ever accepts and obey His Instructions in its entirety.

    So where is your problem, Bhakta George ? What kind of a living guru you are waiting to be appeared before you ? Hope you do answer these questions, Bhakta George.

    Awaiting to hear from you.

    Hari BOL…..

    YS………. Amar Puri.

    Reply
76. Puranjana dasa says:

    10. January 2013 at 2:27 am

    Dear George: We are not “pointing any fingers” at anyone when we are on your topic which you brought up, namely your living guru idea. We are asking people like you for the name of the living guru which you all claim exists? You are mixing up topics here. Pointing fingers at bad gurus is one topic, asking people who claim they follow the living guru idea — to name their guru — is yet another topic, they are not the same topic?

    This is also not our topic, you folks are the ones who brought it up, you folks said our idea is bogus because there is always a living guru around, so you begged the question, who is he? This is your position, and we simply asked you to clarify it.

    And a long time ago we asked Rocana for the name of his living guru, and he went ballistic, because he has none. That means Rocana cannot answer his own question, which he himself raised, by claiming there is always a living guru. We are asking all the living guru people to prove their own point, that their idea has any practical existence? There is none, they cannot point to their guru, nor their guru’s books, temples, devotees, photos, and in sum — there is not a shred of evidence this living guru exists other than as a figment of your collective imaginations.

    Later we asked George A Smith the same thing, and he rambles on just like Rocana does, apparently he also cannot even recall the name of his living guru either. Bhakta Jarek then came in to add his two cents worth, he also claims there is validity to the idea there is a non-existing phantasm living guru which Rocana propounds. Apparently you folks are not advanced enough to worship Casper the ghost, at least there is some evidence he exists. There is absolutely not one shred of evidence in existence that your living guru exists anywhere.

    And everyone noticed that Jarek prabhu is a puppet of that idea, so he also has no name for his living guru either. So if all of you have no name for your living guru, then its very simple: Srila Prabhupada says people who do not name their guru are making themselves the guru. Fine, you guys do not name your guru because according to Srila Prabhupada, that makes you — your own gurus. All we are asking is, why should we accept that you, Rocana and Bhakta Jarek are now the living gurus we all have to accept, based on the principle that — a person who does not name his guru has made himself the guru. OK fine, so all of you are making yourselves gurus, and that is great, but what proof is there that some or any of you are gurus? And why do you go ballistic when we ask for proof? Perhaps this means, there is none? ys pd

    Reply
77. george a. smith says:

    10. January 2013 at 5:59 am

    Amar

    One dayin New Dwarka I walked in a few minutes late to the aratik ceremony which was already in progress Srila Prabhupada was seated on his vyasasan and noticed me as I entered. He was not angry at my appearing late but was actually pleased that I had come and audibly expressed this as well as motioning me to come in and join the worship of Their most merciful Lordships Sr-Sri Rukmini Dwarkadish.

    This was in 1996

    So what is your explanation? Good drugs?

    There are three other possible explanations other than that I was simply hallucinating, those to being that # 1 I am lieing simply to impress you, and #2 That I was actually seeing and hearing Srila Prabhupada speak and move and relate personally with me over 19 years after his physical dissapearance. What is the last possible explanation?

    Even if you believe that I was hallucinating or that I am making this all up, what is the danger of accepting that someone else who is telling you the exact same kinds of things isn’t hallucinating and is telling you the truth? Srila Prabhupada only exclaimed “Oh” in satisfaction at seeing me, but what is the danger to you and to others if you start accepting what Srila Prabhupada supposedly told them when he appeared before their conscious perception or in a dream (and don’t tell me that you folks do not do this, I have seen you do it. I have even seen your speakers do it from the stage at public presentations and presenting it insuch a way as it was being expected that we would just accept it as being true.

    What’s going to happen when one of you goes out to some school and shoots 27 kids because they believed that Srila Prabhupada told them to do it?

    Don’t you see any problems associated with not having a living guru personally present?

    And tell me, have you figured out the third other possible explanation?No. you don’t have a clue, none of you do and while hallucinations and dishonesty are very real dangers to you there is noting more dangerous than the third possible explanation, which is that what a persom might be seeing was in fact a real spiritual entity, but not the one that they were thinking that they were seeing, or hearing, or dreaming about, not Srila Prabhupada but something else, something absolutely evil. What better clothes, eh?

    Reply
78. george a. smith says:

    10. January 2013 at 7:22 am

    Puranjana

    Rocana’s eternal guru is Srila Prabhupda, who I believe he truely loves andtries to serve, which is a whole hell of a lot more than I can say about you buddy.

    So tell us Puranjana about the gopi bhava club and just exactly what Srila Prabhupada said to you that made you so disrespect him.

    For that matter when did you apologize to Srila Prabhupada for stiff arming and walking out on your service to him, or was it only Hridayananda that you apologized to? You didn’t really make who you apologized to quite clear in your original response. Or was it only Jayatirtha you apologized to for using his phone while you begged and pleaded with Hridayananda. Boy, I bet he was really pissed. Had to cut short his vacation, huh? Was that why you flew away to England really fast, to get away before Hridayananda got back to L.A. and had to listen to Srila Prabhupada harangue him for hours on why ever did he trust such an irresponsible raksasa with such an important task?

    You mentioned some letters of apology but I can’t find them among the letters sent out by Srila Prabhupada. Can you type them up real quick and send them to the editors of this site so that they can post them up real quick?

    P.S. That story about you saving the baby was interesting, but I seem to recall that the last time that you told it that you had rescued the baby from being up in a tree, but then someone asked how the baby got up in the tree in the first place and whoosh, you were gone.

    P.P.S. Oh yeah, you and Sulocana -Hitch your wagon to a star, eh, baby? Yeah, I think that I remember listening to him once while he set in his van smoking a joint and sucking on a beer. He told me bout how the leaders of the movement were actually demons and I told him about how I had actually realized years before the truth of what he was claiming. And then the none night the devotee that I was visiting said that she thought that it was a car backfiring. I wasn’t so sure. So what? Does that make me a saint like you? Tell me, are you only try to associate yourself with the photo ops, the more publicized tragedies?

    I was just kidding about the baby thing, not the rest of it unfortunately. And you know Puranjana, if if you check with them you’ll find that most people have saved somebody’s life, their just to humble to brag about it, or they’ve known somebody who is great,respected or famous, but they don’t try to make it out that they are themselves real; big, grat or famous just because they knew them. In fact the devotees that I love the most are just like Sudama, they are always chanting the glories of others and never a peep about themselves.
    .

    P.P.P.S And another thing that most people do, or don’t do rather, is they don’t go around telling lies about other people. In Christianity tyhat is referred to a bearing false witness against your neighbors. Do you really think that Krsna will share the company of such lies and dance upon the lips of the person who tells them? never. Bearing false witness against others is a mortal sin, which goes to reinforce the original consideration offered in this topic that you are an atheist, else otherwise you would not be telling them. That or you are just nuts, and the Rtviks are accepting you as one of their principles spokesmen,

    .

    Reply
79. Mahesh Raja says:

    10. January 2013 at 9:49 am

    George Prabhu wrote:

    “Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. […] the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called disksa-guru.”

    (Lord Krishna Krsna Book 80)

    In as much as you may accept the above quoted statement to be true then you may accept Srila Prabhupada to be my spiritual master and initiating guru, and that is how I accept it, but formally I am not an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada for by the time that I was ready to accept initiation and even though Srila Prabhupada was still physically present, initiations had already been put on hold and I was advised that I would have to wait to be initiated, and I well knew what was meant by that, that I would have to wait to be initiated until after Srila Prabhupada had “died”.

    But my master can never die and I was not interested in taking initiation from any of those who were already planning to to initiate for themselves, all of the disciples waiting to be initiated by Srila Prabhupada. How should I be, when gifted as I was with spiritual vision by Krishna’s grace and Srila Prabhuapadas mercy I could already see that they were unqualified rascals and that they were only following for ulterior motives.”

    Mahesh: George Prabhu if you don’t tell us then HOW are we supposed to know? We are NOT saying that YOU have to surrender to RITVIK just to get FORMAL initiation.

    69-10-31. Letter: Dinesh
    REGARDING THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION COMING FROM ARJUNA, DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN THAT ONE HAS TO BE INITIATED OFFICIALLY. DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION MEANS TO ACCEPT THE DISCIPLIC CONCLUSION. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.

    George Prabhu – we ALL have been treated VERY BADLY by ISKCON GOONS who STOLE Srila Prabhupada’s properties and Disciples. It is ONLY by Krsna’s arrangement that you were not allowed to go into the temple because how do you know HOW they would have treated you? Many devotees were treated worse then street dogs – they were ill-treated and FORCED out.
    ATLEAST be thankful that we “RITVIKS” have taken task to these ” CONDITIONED SOUL living guru” vapuvadi CONMEN to expose them – so that any SINCERE SOUL will be able to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada THE BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU. The CONMEN of ISKCON vapuvadi camp use the BAIT AND SWITCH tactic to capture innocent devotees in the TRAP so that they EXPLOIT them. They say you have to surrender to Srila Prabhupada BUT in actual fact it is their BOGUS gurus they want you to get hooked-up to by “initiation” so they EXPLOIT you the the maximum.

    Hare Krsna!

    Reply
80. Mahesh Raja says:

    10. January 2013 at 10:23 am

    Puranjana Prabhu wrote:
    “Later we asked George A Smith the same thing, and he rambles on just like Rocana does, apparently he also cannot even recall the name of his living guru either. Bhakta Jarek then came in to add his two cents worth, he also claims there is validity to the idea there is a non-existing phantasm living guru which Rocana propounds. Apparently you folks are not advanced enough to worship Casper the ghost, at least there is some evidence he exists. There is absolutely not one shred of evidence in existence that your living guru exists anywhere.”

    Mahesh: I agree Puranjan Prabhu here. this point that leads one to think WHOSE side is George really on? On one hand he says Srila Prabhupada is the initiating guru for HIM and on the other talks about non-existing phantasam living guru. HOW is that ANY different than Rocana?

    Reply
81. Santosh says:

    10. January 2013 at 12:41 pm

    Hare Krsna,
    Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Dear Puranjana Prabhu,
    Can you please explain me what George Prabhu is saying here, since looking at his comment makes me doubt you and the ritvik system also. What is he saying about Sulocana das Prabhu, I don’t understand what he means by using ‘beer’?

    george a. smith says:
    10. January 2013 at 7:22 am
    Puranjana

    Rocana’s eternal guru is Srila Prabhupda, who I believe he truely loves andtries to serve, which is a whole hell of a lot more than I can say about you buddy.

    So tell us Puranjana about the gopi bhava club and just exactly what Srila Prabhupada said to you that made you so disrespect him.

    For that matter when did you apologize to Srila Prabhupada for stiff arming and walking out on your service to him, or was it only Hridayananda that you apologized to? You didn’t really make who you apologized to quite clear in your original response. Or was it only Jayatirtha you apologized to for using his phone while you begged and pleaded with Hridayananda. Boy, I bet he was really pissed. Had to cut short his vacation, huh? Was that why you flew away to England really fast, to get away before Hridayananda got back to L.A. and had to listen to Srila Prabhupada harangue him for hours on why ever did he trust such an irresponsible raksasa with such an important task?

    You mentioned some letters of apology but I can’t find them among the letters sent out by Srila Prabhupada. Can you type them up real quick and send them to the editors of this site so that they can post them up real quick?

    P.S. That story about you saving the baby was interesting, but I seem to recall that the last time that you told it that you had rescued the baby from being up in a tree, but then someone asked how the baby got up in the tree in the first place and whoosh, you were gone.

    P.P.S. Oh yeah, you and Sulocana -Hitch your wagon to a star, eh, baby? Yeah, I think that I remember listening to him once while he set in his van smoking a joint and sucking on a beer. He told me bout how the leaders of the movement were actually demons and I told him about how I had actually realized years before the truth of what he was claiming. And then the none night the devotee that I was visiting said that she thought that it was a car backfiring. I wasn’t so sure. So what? Does that make me a saint like you? Tell me, are you only try to associate yourself with the photo ops, the more publicized tragedies?

    I was just kidding about the baby thing, not the rest of it unfortunately. And you know Puranjana, if if you check with them you’ll find that most people have saved somebody’s life, their just to humble to brag about it, or they’ve known somebody who is great,respected or famous, but they don’t try to make it out that they are themselves real; big, grat or famous just because they knew them. In fact the devotees that I love the most are just like Sudama, they are always chanting the glories of others and never a peep about themselves.
    .

    P.P.P.S And another thing that most people do, or don’t do rather, is they don’t go around telling lies about other people. In Christianity tyhat is referred to a bearing false witness against your neighbors. Do you really think that Krsna will share the company of such lies and dance upon the lips of the person who tells them? never. Bearing false witness against others is a mortal sin, which goes to reinforce the original consideration offered in this topic that you are an atheist, else otherwise you would not be telling them. That or you are just nuts, and the Rtviks are accepting you as one of their principles spokesmen,

    Begging for a reply,
    Your servant,
    Santosh

    Reply
82. Santosh says:

    10. January 2013 at 12:50 pm

    Hare Krsna,
    Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Please read this article called “Conversations With Prabhupada in 2002!” – by Amoghalila Prabhu on http://krishna.org/conversations-with-prabhupada-in-2002/
    It doesn’t seem to me to have taken place at all…
    I see that many devotees are claiming to talk to Srila Prabhupada much after his physical disappearance. Who can one believe it is true? If at all it is true, then why is Amoghalila Prabhu not known to everyone? I mean, it should have become a big news, isn’t it?

    Begging for a reply,
    Your servant,
    Santosh

    Reply
83. Mahesh Raja says:

    10. January 2013 at 1:29 pm

    George keeps on going ON and ON and ON about Puranjana Prabhu BUT lets face it MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with Puranjana has been going back say ATLEAST over 20years. He is VERY steadyfast in EXPOSING the bogus ISKCON/GAUDIYA MATH gurus. He has ALWAYS spoken out for Ritvik System. Based just on these TWO FACTS alone speaks VOLUMES of Puranjana Prabhu’s SERVICE ATTITUDE towards Srila Prabhupada. PERIOD!

    So George don’t tells us what to think of Puranjana Prabhu BECAUSE we KNOW what HE DOES FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA. You folks are TOTALLY USELESS for practical purposes in DEFENDING Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik System that HE ORDERED so that HE be worshiped as DIKSA GURU. You want your OWN LIVING HYPOCRITES BOGUS GURUS to be forced on to innocent unsuspecting by hooking them up in “initiation”. Time for your medicine for drugs yet PRABHU?

    Reply
84. Jay says:

    10. January 2013 at 2:40 pm

    George prabhu says: “Don’t you see any problems associated with not having a living guru personally present?”

    This question should be asked of Rocana and all the other Prabhupada disciples who claim that you need a “living guru personally present”. Who is THEIR living guru?

    Sheer hypocrisy.

    Reply
85. Puranjana dasa says:

    10. January 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Rocana does not advertise for the worshipers of Prabhupada, nor does he allow any of us to post there. What he does post is advertsing for the “Friends of The BBT” — ok folks like Jayadvaita’s BBT book changes program, and he advertises for them. Rocana also advertises for the Gaudiya Matha folks like Mayesvara, ooops, and they had homosexual gurus and so on.

    “Friends of the BBT” editor Jayadvaita incidently says his ISKCON gurus are having illicit sex with men, women and children and Rocana is advertising for that group. And George A. Smith has been Rocana’s biggest cheer leader groupie for years. Why has George A. Smith been helping the group that is promoting the illicit sex with men, women and children acharyas / messiahs program?

    Sorry, we cannot accept the advertisers for the worship of illicit sex acharyas like George A. Smith has been doing. George A. Smith is talking about primates, but even primates do not advertise for the worship of illicit sex messiahs?

    In sum, George A. Smith ilk has a long ways to go to even come to the level of primates, they do not engage in illicit sex with men, women and children, nor they do they worship that, and they do not write letters of support for that program’s web site the way George has been doing. In sum, even primates are vastly superior to this program, which is why George is so angry, we exposed him as a co-promoter of that agenda. And we are correct, Rocana and George still cannot name their living guru, they are bluffers. Srila Prabhupada says a person who cannot name his guru is taking over the post of guru himself. Rocana says he follows the tradition of the living guru, he does not name that guru, that means he is saying he is that guru. Sorry, we cannot worship the co-promoters of illicit sex messiahs. George has no living guru, and that means he is his own guru as well. He thinks he is the next messiah. How humble is that? ys pd

    Reply
86. Puranjana dasa says:

    10. January 2013 at 3:39 pm

    Hare Krsna,
    Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Dear Puranjana Prabhu, Can you please explain me what George Prabhu is saying here, since looking at his comment makes me doubt you and the ritvik system also. What is he saying about Sulocana das Prabhu, I don’t understand what he means by using ‘beer’?

    [PD: Actually George A Smith is partially correct here. He says that when me and Sulochana were writing papers protesting the bogus illicit sex gurus and the mass child molesting problem, George says he knew all about these problems himself, perhaps maybe even more than we did, and perhaps way before we did.

    Yet he never wrote any protest papers that we ever heard of, the way we did, that means he is really saying — he knowingly allows child molesting gurus and child molesting programs to go on without protesting the way we did? And he just de facto admits to that.

    George’s best buddy Naranarayan dasa Visvakarma also told me the same thing, he knew about all this way before me, but we do not recall him writing papers of protest?

    Yes, George is probably correct, he and many other knew about these problems like the mass molesting and they did nothing about it, whereas we did, and so we were threatened with death etc. for doing so. Jane Wallace asked me — who else is writing like you guys, and I did not mention George because, no one knew about his writing, because there were none? His writing of protest and his living guru are the same, they do not exist. Yes, George says he knew, that means he and others allowed the molesting to go on without protest, that is quite right, we agree. ys pd]

    Reply
87. Puranjana dasa says:

    10. January 2013 at 4:02 pm

    This apparently proves the original claim of Sulochana against people like George and NNV, that many people like them knew all about the child molesting and they were not protesting in public like Sulochana was so — they were part of the cover up. Or what? ys pd

    Reply
88. bhakta jarek says:

    10. January 2013 at 4:42 pm

    The so called ritvik system is the newest form of the once karthabaja sahajiya sect, a universally existing pattern in maya’s palette of deviations and scams, where the so called follower decides to known better than his master. Asked for merely a glass of water he foolishly thinks it is better to serve him a cup of hot milk intstead. Such as this karthabaj sahajiya waste was lately reborn in the end of 1980-s in 3 bored to tears minds of so called brahmins from the Vedic Village, but the actuall father was here again the infamous B.R.Sridhar Swami. There is nothing spiritual in the scam, since scam is just a scam and will allways remain a scam, a fake thing. The so called ISKCON Bangalore with it’s dubious leader do not at slightest care about white westerners” so take a little break Puranjana in your sleazy praises of Madhu Pandit. The cunning selfmade Maha Ritivk Tsar Madhu Pandit will finally trick you all and takes the whole credit for himself. This is all about power and controll as allways is the case when the conditioned jiva “knows better”. It is also very typical how do you ritviks refrain from reality diving blindly into the sphere of “more advanced realm of the pure heart of the only one true believer, the ritvik convert wonderfully illuminated neweborn in the holly waters of the gospel of B.R.Sridhar Swami, Hansadutta, Krishnakant, Gaurahari madman, MAdhu Pandit and whoever is with you in your fanatical spiritual suicide.
    y.s. bj

    Reply
89. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    10. January 2013 at 5:36 pm

    Thanks Dr. Jarek!

    Ok, this is slightly getting into – ISKCON reformers now fighting against each other about an issue even fallen Christianity never had and in future never will have. How worse it can get?

    Always thought that Vaishnavas have deeper realization? Guess I’m wrong here…?

    In any case, those who suffer from constipation and cannot name their guru, you obviously require emergency hospitalization, reanimation, if need be, electroshock therapy.

    In sum, that question is outside this forum’s province. Get your ambulatory treatment, outpatient therapy – and then come back! Please! Thank you for your understanding!

    Endless debate about what is genuine guru-tattva is rather spamming this website and having sincere readers to run away for good. Is this what you want? ys rrdd

    Reply
90. bhakta jarek says:

    10. January 2013 at 6:25 pm

    Dear Mataji I am not a Vaishnava yet, I am just a practical men and not a little boy anymore, I got my lesson here and there. I merely try hard to follow the truth as written in the scriptures by the Hare Krishna Acarya H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami who you blame for having problems with your misunderstanding of guru tattva, while impose upon Him alleged system of forced diksha initiation, which all smells from far like worst mayavada. Things get worse and worse by your ritivk scam now not less than previously by the 11 maha cheaters acharya or ISKCON guru program scam. However thank you for your “nice” cure ideas. Do you have maybe something for the ritualistic diksha sentimentalists? Just a joke, no, you don’t have, you go deeper into rituals save you more than the purest Bhagavatam philosophy and simple practices, especially chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra.
    y.s. bj

    Reply
91. MICHAEL SANDOVAL says:

    10. January 2013 at 6:55 pm

    Bhakta Jarek, investigate for yourself. do not buy into the nonsense. just research for yourself and you will see the truth. it’s all a scam and it will ruin your life if you let it, mark my words.

    Reply
92. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    10. January 2013 at 7:13 pm

    Santosh says:

    Hare Krsna, Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please read this article called “Conversations With Prabhupada in 2002!” — by Amoghalila Prabhu on http://krishna.org/conversations-with-prabhupada-in-2002/ It doesn’t seem to me to have taken place at all… I see that many devotees are claiming to talk to Srila Prabhupada much after his physical disappearance. Who can one believe it is true? If at all it is true, then why is Amoghalila Prabhu not known to everyone? I mean, it should have become a big news, isn’t it?

    Begging for a reply, Your servant, Santosh

    I had forgotten about these alleged conversations with Srila Prabhupada. The fact that the article says “by amoghalila-dasa,” and then starts off by saying “Amoghalila Prabhu had some conversations with Srila Prabhupada last year…,” is an example of sloppy journalism. Who wrote the introduction? It doesn’t say.

    According to:

    http://sp.krishna.com/disciples_a

    …, Amoghalila Prabhu was initiated in NYC in July of 1972 (after I had already moved from there to LA). I don’t recall ever meeting him in person. He is also mentioned in two GBC resolutions:

    http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES1983.htm

    http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES1996.htm

    By the way, I found the following in my archives:

    From : “Pratyatosa Dasa”
    To : AKeislar@aol.com
    CC : naveen.khurana@att.net
    Subject : Re: FW: “Conversations with Srila Prabhupada”
    Date : 21 Mar 2003 3:41:24 PM EST

    Dear Amoghalila Prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    The things that Srila Prabhupada said to you sound like Srila Prabhupada and what he says makes perfect sense to me. For their own sake, I hope and pray that the GBC men follow his instructions sooner, rather than later!

    Are you completely conscious when these conversations occur or are they vivid dreams?

    Two question I have for Srila Prabhupada are:

    1. Were you poisoned?

    2. Where is Tamal Krishna now?

    Please keep up the good work! My prayers are with you.

    Hope you are well and blissful in KC.

    Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa (http://pratyatosa.com/)

    PS: Here are two accounts of vivid dreams that I have had about Srila Prabhupada:

    http://pratyatosa.com/Dream.htm

    http://pratyatosa.com/Dream2.htm

    From : AKeislar@aol.com
    To : pratyatosa@hotmail.com
    Subject : Re: FW: “Conversations with Srila Prabhupada”
    Date : Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:52:09 EST

    Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu,

    Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

    In a message dated 3/21/03 3:41:24 PM EST, pratyatosa@hotmail.com writes:

    > Are you completely conscious when these conversations occur or are they
    > vivid dreams?

    I am completely conscious, and I write or type them as they occur.

    > Two question I have for Srila Prabhupada are:
    >
    > 1. Were you poisoned?

    Yes, Srila Prabhupada was poisoned (he said this in so many words himself in the last few weeks of his manifest pastimes–see my booklet, “What Did Srila Prabhupada Say? “Someone Has Poisoned Me” or “Not That I Was Poisoned). However, he was not killed by the poisoning, but left of his own will.

    > 2. Where is Tamal Krishna now?

    He is with Srila Prabhupada, as his right hand man, as he always has been.

    I hope this meets you in the best of health and Krsna consciousness.

    Your servant, Amoghalila das

    From : AKeislar@aol.com
    To : pratyatosa@hotmail.com
    Subject : Re: Missing Tapes
    Date : Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:54:41 EST

    In a message dated 3/25/03 2:29:08 PM EST, pratyatosa@hotmail.com writes:

    > He is still Srila Prabhupada’s right hand man even after he helped to poison
    > him? Srila Prabhupada’s mercy must be boundless!

    You seem to have misunderstood Tamal Krishna Maharaja, as almost everyone in our movement has. He did not help poison Srila Prabhupada. He only was doing what Srila Prabhupada was instructing him–and if he did anything other than what Srila Prabhupada instructed, it was not out of disobedience but out of a very elevated love for Srila Prabhupada and a desire to serve Srila Prabhupada better.

    > What happened to the missing tapes and documents? TKG must know something
    > about this. If some of them could be found, it might help to convince the
    > TPs and maybe even some of the GBC men that Srila Prabhupada wanted the
    > ritvik system to continue.

    Tamal Krishna Maharaja did not selfishly conceal those tapes, as some persons have surmised. And even if they were to be found, they would not convince people. How could those tapes be more clear than what we already have? Srila Prabhupada plainly answered the question about how initiations were supposed to go on, especially after he left, with the famous statement that he would appoint some officiating acaryas. So if they could twist this crystal clear statement to mean just the opposite of what Srila Prabhupada plainly said, they will be able to twist anything. Besides, I am convinced that Srila Prabhupada and Tamal Krishna Maharaja had very confidential discussions about how to adjust things to accomodate the overly ambitious devotees who wanted to be independent acaryas, and these discussions would be very, very difficult for most devotees to understand, even today.

    I hope this meets you in the best of health and Krsna consciousness.

    Your servant, Amoghalila das

    From : “Pratyatosa Dasa”
    To : AKeislar@aol.com
    Subject : You are probably right, Prabhu, but…
    Date : 26 Mar 2003

    ….what about the following:

    1. The devotees who listen closely to the “whispers” seem to be convinced that something very sinister was afoot.

    2. The July 9th letter was not included in the Vedabase until 1990.

    3. The GBC tried to hide Srila Prabhupada’s will.

    4. Naveen Krishna Prabhu, whom I have very much respect for, seems convinced that there was a conspiracy to poison Srila Prabhupada before he had a chance to formalized the post-samadhi ritvik system of initiations at the 1978 GBC meetings. He should know, because he worked with these people as a fellow GBC man for many years.

    5. TKG seems to have participated in a conspiracy to harass and even excommunicate anyone who wanted to follow Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions on ritvik.

    The above are things that I’m concerned about, but more important, what about the future? How long do we have to wait until Srila Prabhupada is allowed to again begin initiating within ISKCON? Do you think that Srila Prabhupada’s desire for another “TP’s rebellion” will actually happen?

    Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

    (No Reply)

    After this, he seems to have gone completely silent.

    In any case, I had/have the feeling that Amoghalila Prabhu was/is sincere.

    Ys, Ptd

    Reply
93. Amar Puri says:

    10. January 2013 at 8:19 pm

    Bhakta George accepts Srila Prabhupada’s position but he does not obey Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI in its entirety like Rocana dasa and so many others because they all believe in physically living guru presence in front of them. Not only they believe but also they accept that Srila Prabhupada is not living guru. Whereas Srila Prabhupada says that He is present in His Books. That is Bhakta George’s problem.

    OK. let me try one more time to see IF Bhakta George accept and obey this Srila Prabhupada’s writing ;

    PURPORT

    Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to preach the sankirtana movement of love of Krsna throughout the entire world, and therefore during His presence He inspired the sankirtana movement. Specifically, He sent Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami to Vrndavana and Nityananda to Bengal and personally went to South India. In this way He kindly left the task of preaching His cult in the rest of the world to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the acaryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world.

    Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports to Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Seventh Chapter, describing Lord Caitanya in five features. [adi 7.121]

    Bhakta George, where is the room for an other physically presence living guru to be appeared on this Planet Earth ?

    Giving you the benefit of doubts that IF there is an other Mahabhagavata to be appeared, then, s/he has to continue under the ORDER of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. It is that SIMPLE.
    Is It NOT, Bhakta George ?

    Are you going to accept and obey the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada as being the Living Guru, Bhakta George ?

    Reply
94. mark says:

    10. January 2013 at 9:14 pm

    You are right on one point Jarek.

    You are not a Vaisnava, because you have no living Guru.

    Those who have surrendered to the Vani of Srila Prabhupada have a living Guru and at least they are Neophyte Vaisnavas. They understand that such an Acarya is not limited by tradition, nor your puny idea of what comprises Vaisnava tradition, or the types of adjustments an Acarya may or may not make to the formalities of Pancaratrika viddhi.

    Here is a little parable for your edification.

    There was once a Bhakta named Joe. He had lived at the Detroit temple for about a month in 1977. He loved temple life so much that he went back to his old neighborhood with some devotees and convinced his high school buddy “Bill” to come to the temple and try it out. Bill loved it too, and decided to move in as well. They were both enthusiastic about Sankirtana and were able to follow the rules and regs. Their Bhakta leader was Prabhupada dasa. Prabhupada dasa had come to the movement in 1974, and was an initiated disciple of Iskcon’s founder acarya. He had never met Srila Prabhupada. He received 1st and 2nd initiation through the efforts of the acarya’s representatives in the form of the Detroit temple president and the regional GBC secretary who accepted the TP’s recommendaton for Prabhupada das’ initiations, chanted on the beads, chose Prabhupada das’ name and recorded it in Srila Prabhupada’s disciple book. The GBC secretary did all this without speaking of it to Srila Prabhupada as was the new tradition of action.

    So, after 6 months of service, Bhakta Joe was eager to be initiated. He let Prabhupada dasa know his desire. P. dasa let the Detroit TP know that he thought Bhakta Joe was, among a few others who had been there a little longer, were bona-fide aspirants and ready for initiation. The TP agreed and as usual, he sent off a recommendation to the GBC secretary who had just officially been named as a RITVIK REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA.

    From the time of recommendation and acceptance by the Ritivk it took a month to schedule and arrange the initiation ceremony. The initiation day was 11/13 and was ecstatic for all, and Bhatka Bill felt happy for Joe (Now Govinda das) and eternally grateful that his friend had come and plucked him from the Ocean of material misery and placed him on the shore of Reality at the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada. So happy in fact, that he was determined to request initiation himself, and knew that his 6 months was officially up that very day, so he vowed that the next day, he would ask to take his vows.

    The next day, Bhakta Bill went straight to the TP first thing in the morning after Mangal Arotik and made his request. The TP had anticipated this and told Bhakta Bill he would be happy to do so, and already had drafted the recommendation. The TP dropped it into the outgoing mail. Later that day, the temple got the news of Srila Prabhupada’s passing. The ecstasy of the day before lent to another type of emotion, extreme separation. Everyone spent the day glorifying Srila Prabhupada like they never had before, and all counted their blessings.

    A week later, the TP of Detriot heard from his regional GBC secretary. The Secretary was calling to inform him that the recent recommendation of Bhakta Bill for discipleship was accepted. With a twist. That since Srila Prabhupada was DEAD, that Bhakta Bill could no longer become his initiated disciple, but would become the GBC’s disciple, and should immediately be sent to the Columbus Ohio temple where the GBC spent most of his time while in America, so he could worship his new Guru there, and receive instruction. The TP was aghast, and spoke out strongly. He told the GBC man how Bhakta Bill was at the temple with his best friend from childhood for practically the same amount of time, how they both LOVED Srila Prabhupada and were devoted to him, and how his very own Sankirtana leader Prabhupada das was a 2nd initiated Brahmana who never even met Srila Prabhupada in his Vapu form, but was just as dedicated as anyone to Srila Prabhupada’s discipline through his instructions. The TP added that he had the July 9th DIRECTIVE in his hands, and nowhere did it mention that any change to that system would occur for any reason.

    The GBC Tyrant replied that the TP (who was actually in the movement longer than the GBC man) was not advanced in siddhanta enough to understand the philosophy, and that all Srila Prabhupada’s instructions were subject to review and change because he was gone, and now the GBC’s would be making rules or amending rules as they were ALIVE and thus living successors of decision making power.

    The TP called his GBC rep a power mad lunatic and that Yamaraja would send him to hell for eternity for what he was doing, and hung up the phone.

    The Detroit temple held out for a year. The TP conducted Sankirtana exactly as it always had with no changes, except he refused to recommend anyone for initiation after he lost Bhakta Bill. Bhakta Joe (Now Garuda Pandit das) kept in touch with Bhakta Bill (now Tamal Krsna dasa das) He told everyone how his old friend spent most of his time as a personal slave to his new “guru” who over a years time was already telling the devotees around him to stop mentioning Srila Prabhupada so much, and that the new practices and procedures he was ordering them to do were better for them as his orders were Krsna’s direct will, even if they were things Prabhupada didn’t instruct. After all IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME, PLACE, AND CIRCUMSTANCE, was it not?

    After hearing these stories, the Detroit TP did his best to keep things as Srila Prabhupada had asked, but his local GBC secretary, now “Acaryapada”, was constantly visiting and asking when new Bhaktas were going to be given to him as disciples. He would argue with the Detroit TP that certain standards needed to change because the temple wasn’t making enough money, and for various other excuses.

    The more the Detroit TP resisted, the more his GBC colluded with his co-GBC acharyapadas in order to put various pressures and sanctions ont he Detroit temple. After only one year, the Detroit TP saw the writing on the wall, he would either play ball, or the temple would fold. He quit in disgust. He and Prabhupada das and Govinda das went to Columbus temple in the dead of night, and kidnapped Tamala Krsna dasa das (who went quite willingly) and the group flew to South India to take shelter of a pious Indian Iskcon donor who was sympathetic to their plight. There they formed the first seed of the reform movement that would resist the false GBC Acaryas and their tyranny and their bucket boys like Bhakta Jarek.

    Reply
95. Puranjana dasa says:

    11. January 2013 at 3:04 am

    [PD NOTE: Bhakta Jarek still has not named his living guru, thus he has no guru at all, Srila Prabhupada says when a person cannot name his guru, he is making himself the guru.]

    george a. smith says:

    10. January 2013 at 7:22 am

    GEORGE A. SMITH: Puranjana, Rocana’s eternal guru is Srila Prabhupda, who I believe he truely loves and tries to serve, which is a whole hell of a lot more than I can say about you buddy.

    PD: Rocana loves Srila Prabhupada? So why does he STOP and NOT allow Prabhupada’s worshipers to post anything on his “sampradaya sun” web site? Rather, Rocana posts support for programs like “Friends of the BBT,” which is of course the Jayadvaita swami program. Jayadvaita is the main person who is “changing the books of Srila Prabhupada,” which all of us Prabhupadanugas are objecting to.

    Why should we glorify the very same program that is re-writing the books of Srila Prabhupada? And how is it that — by advertising for the “changing the books” program — this is showing ANY love for Srila Prabhupada? [See where the program George A. Smith says “loves Prabhupada” i.e. Rocana’s program, is advertising for the book changers here:

    [http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/news/03-12/news4176.htm]

    [And the main site of the “friends of the BBT” is here:

    [http://friendsofthebbt.org/jayadvaita-swami]

    Jayadvaita swami is also the person who says IN WRITING that gurus (aka God’s successors) are found to be engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children. Why are Rocana and George A. Smith advertising for a program that has people who say IN WRITING that God’s gurus/ acharyas / messiahs are debauchees and child molesters? Why doesn’t Rocana and George A. Smith know that this molester pooja progam is wrong, and this should NOT be advertised?

    And why is George still advertising for Rocana after we made all the “acharyas are debauchees deviation” very clear to him many years ago? And why does George say that advertising for the “illicit sex with men, women and children” messiahs program shows “love for Srila Prabhupada”? And isn’t George A. Smith a hazard to children all over the universe since he helps promote a site that has the illicit sex guru program’s leaders and programs advertised there?

    The article above on Rocana’s site also glorifies Gopiparanandhana das, a big supporter of the person who buried a known homosexual pedophile “acharya” (Kirtanananda swami) in the holy dham, namely Radhanath swami. Gopiparanandhan also supported the entire (illicit sex) GBC guru system.

    [See more about Gopiparanadhana being glorified by the GBC gurus at their site here: http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4835.%5D

    Why is Rocana advertising for the GBC’s gurus biggest scholars / henchmen, and Radhanath’s best defenders? These people are burying a known child molester in the holy dham, and Rocana is advertising for them, and George A. Smith thinks that is wonderful love from heaven? Glorifying the worship of dead pedophile bogus messiahs is love for pedophiles, it is not love for anything else. Of course, we are not allowed to post there because we would expose all this tom-foolery.

    Why don’t Rocana and George A. Smith know that glorifying a program which says gurus have illicit sex with men, women and children, is dangerous to children? And why is George A. Smith glorifying Rocana, who is advertising for this odious program? Why aren’t Rocana and George A. Smith helping us combat the idea that messiahs are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, and instead they are advertising for the promoters and leaders of that odious ideology, and attacking us for not agreeing with these deviations?

    And never mind Rocana also advertises for people like Mayesvara, a spokesman for the Gaudiya Matha’s folks:

    [http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-12/editorials8939.htm]

    Mayesvara’s “Gaudiya Matha” program first of all supported a homosexual “living guru” guru in 1936, and later their leaders became the biggest supporters of the deviant (and sometimes homosexual pedophile) “living 11” GBC gurus after 1977. Why is George helping Rocana advertise for the biggest and most vociferous supporters of the ISKCON illicit sex guru’s project?

    GEORGE A SMITH: Sulochana told me bout how the leaders of the movement were actually demons and I told him about how I had actually realized years before the truth of what he was claiming.

    [PD: Interesting, Sulochana was exposing crimes like child molesting, and George A. Smith now admits he realized all these crimes were going on “years before” Sulochana was reporting on them. Since George A. Smith says he knew “years before” about all these crimes, why was he not raising a red flag to the devotee community about these problems? Why not try to get more devotees on board who could try to take action against these crimes? Why not at least try to help the children who were being victimized — as myself and Sulochana were doing by handing out papers on these topics?

    Was George A. Smith, or NNV or Rocana for that matter, passing out papers protesting all these crimes, like me and Sulochana were doing? Not that we ever heard of?

    George A. Smith also quite often cites as his authority Naranaryana dasa Visvakarma (NNV aka Nathan Zakheim), a person who has had multiple wives / divorces / a girlfriend whom he got pregnant (and she had an abortion), and now NNV is being roundly criticized for being nearly 70 years old and running off with a young woman for his wife (aka cradle robbery).

    George A. Smith cannot allow a day to pass by without quoting from his best pal NNV, but all the rest of the devotee community thinks NNV is the prime example of women exploitation in ISKCON. Why is NNV the main authority of George? Lest we forget, NNV was also the main person who joined hands with SANAT who said these molested children need to be killed, chopped up and fed to dogs. [NNV is still advertised on the Sanat site] And Sanat’s editor Muktipada recently confirmed that Sanat was saying these children need to be killed and chopped up.

    Anyway, this is great news in one sense, this confirms what Sulochana was saying all along, he was reporting on these crimes, and now we find that people like Rocana, George A. Smith, NNV and others were not helping him. NNV also says he was the first to challenge the bogus gurus on these topics, but we do not recall any papers he wrote being circulated at the time? Jane Wallace of CBS news interviewed 100s of devotees in 1986, and she told me — none of them ever heard of anyone else (ok Rocana, George, NNV) but the devotees had all heard about me and Sulochana das.

    Nor were any papers from George being circulated that we ever heard of? And now these “do nothing” people are joining together, Rocana, George A. Smith, NNV, and these are the people no one heard about when all these crimes were going in the 1980s. Sorry, Sulochana and me deserve the credit, and whether they like it or not, we are getting the credit in the devotee and even karmi media because, most folks know who was fighting and who was not.

    The really other good news is that people like Rocana, George A. Smith, NNV et al. have no noticed programs, no noticed temples, no devotees of their ideas, basically no nothing, so they are being increasingly marginalized. No wonder they are flipping out, we are making headway and they cannot even name their living guru, so nobody gives a hoot about them. The other good news is:

    THIS EXPLAINS WHY SO MANY CRIMES WENT ON, US AND SULOCHANA WERE TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THESE CRIMES, AND WE WERE BEING IGNORED BY THESE ROCANA, NNV, GEORGE TYPES AND SO THEY HELPED THE CRIMES BY NOT HELPING US.

    ys pd]

    Reply
96. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    11. January 2013 at 4:08 am

    “Guru cannot be a conditioned soul. Guru must be liberated. Because without complete knowledge of Krishna, without being free from the contamination of the three modes of material nature… One cannot understand Krishna on account of his being engrossed with these three material modes of nature.”
    (Gorakhpur, February 16, 1971)

    Reply
97. bhakta jarek says:

    11. January 2013 at 4:48 am

    Basically we are different from material body, subtle mind, intelligence and ego dear Puranjana. Notorious lying is certainly the domain of material life in the lowest mode of ignorance, and by the amount of lies which your mind produces and your uncontrolled tongue expresses we can clearly see you are drowning in the ocean of sorrow. Thus we can also see that ritivik vadis church members are mostly either liars or decived individuals who got for a while out of track. Personally I realized that only constant chanting may help us, of course we should train our mind in satyam and arjavam while chanting, forgiving is also of much help. Good luck to everyone dear prabhus, forgive me my unwanted offences please.
    y.s. bj

    Reply
98. Puranjana dasa says:

    11. January 2013 at 5:15 am

    Dear Jarek prabhu, Sorry, all we did was, we asked you for proof your living guru exists, and you did not provide any. Neither has George, Rocana etc. So either you folks lied to us when you made huge claims that you had one, or your guru is one of the bogus people and you are too ashamed to give us his name.

    Often people will refuse to name their living guru because we can link him to all kinds of scandals. Anyway, now you are simply angry that you cannot answer your own question, you said there is always living guru. We simply said, ok fine, give us his name and show us who he is, and since you bluffed us from square one because you never had a living guru, now you are angry, that means you either never had one or yours is among the bogus class. In either case, it looks to us like you are the liar, you never had a living guru, it was all a giant bluff from square one. And we caught you in your big lie, so now you are angry. Simple? ys pd

    Reply
99. george a. smith says:

    11. January 2013 at 5:20 am

    Puranjana

    You are still avoiding the subject, please and trying to distract everyone from noticing by gibbering.

    Reply
100. Santosh says:

     11. January 2013 at 8:35 am

     Hare Krsna,
     PLease acept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
     Dear Puranjana Prabhu,
     I still don’t understand by what George Prabhu means by-“P.P.S. Oh yeah, you and Sulocana -Hitch your wagon to a star, eh, baby? Yeah, I think that I remember listening to him once while he set in his van smoking a joint and sucking on a beer. He told me bout how the leaders of the movement were actually demons and I told him about how I had actually realized years before the truth of what he was claiming. And then the none night the devotee that I was visiting said that she thought that it was a car backfiring. I wasn’t so sure. So what? Does that make me a saint like you? Tell me, are you only try to associate yourself with the photo ops, the more publicized tragedies?”
     I am not so good in English to understand such indirect speech. And can you please tell me why Bhakta Jarek says that you are lying?I have always held you and Sulocana Prabhu in the highest esteem and is George prabhu saying that he saw Sulocana prabhu with “beer”?Was sulocan das fully following the regulative principles while writing his book?
     Please tell me honestly whether or not you are fully honest in your comments in favour of ritvik.PLease forgive me for my foolish comments……my understanding and conviction is very weak and whenever I read comments strongly criticising(through some logic)the ritviks,I am totally confused.
     I am 100% sure that Srila Prabhupada is maha-mahabhagavata.
     Please, I beg you to tell me honestly and confidently about what is correct.I want to have the association of honest devotees of Srila Prabhupada.Please forgive me if I have written offensively since I am a newcomer.I respect you a lot.
     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
101. Santosh says:

     11. January 2013 at 9:17 am

     Dear Puranjana Prabhu,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.There are many complaints about HG Madhu Pandit dasa that I came across while trying to find out about him…..for example in the websites
     http://www.iskcon-bda.org/main/fraud_mpd.html
     and
     http://www.madhubandit.info/2009/03/07/is-madhu-pandit-dasa-a-gunda-among-the-sadhus/

     these complaints don’t seem to be lies…they seem to be honest…..
     These websites have hurt my faith in Madhu Pandit dasa and the ritvik system.
     I beg you to clear my confusion and show convincingly whether or not Madhu Pandit dasa is a fraud.

     begging for a reply,
     Your servnat
     Santosh

     Reply
102. Puranjana dasa says:

     11. January 2013 at 11:29 am

     Dear Santosh, the newspapers and India government cleared Madhu Pandit years ago by giving his bookeeping a class A record. ys pd

     Reply
103. Amar Puri says:

     11. January 2013 at 4:26 pm

     george a smith writes ; ” Puranjana, You are still avoiding the subject, please and trying to distract everyone from noticing by gibbering. ”

     Bhakta George let me ask you, isn’t that you are avoiding the subject not answering the questions I asked you ? Why are you and your associates offending and defending each other unnecessarily ? Where are you going with all these gibbering, Bhakta George ? Why do you not address the questions you are asked straight forwardly ? Answer these questions Bhakta George ?

     Hope you do answer the questions I have asked you in all of my above posts which you have never brothered at all to answer the questions thus far.

     In anticipation of your reply, I remain,

     YS……. Amar Puri.

     Reply
104. Amar Puri says:

     11. January 2013 at 4:44 pm

     Bhakta Santosh writes ; ” I am 100% sure that Srila Prabhupada is maha-mahabhagavata. ”

     Dear Santosh, these people such as Bhakta George, Bhakta Jerk, and Rocana dasa Prabhu, one of the most senior devotee of Srila Prabhupada to name a few also believe in 100% that Srila Prabhupada is the Maha-Bhagavata. But the problem with these people is that they do not obey the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada in its entirety. They interpret the instructions of Srila Prabhupada what ever way it suits their personal agenda and thus they oppose Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.

     Now let me ask you this plain question that are you such one of the believer amongst them ?

     It does not look like to me because as you said that you are an honest person which I believe you. So based on that my humble suggestion is to you that please simply listen and hear from Srila Prabhupada VANI i.e. his books, lectures, etc. and pay no attention to any other material out there which is contradictory to the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. This way you can make your life sublime in cultivating your Krsna Consciousness.

     Hope it meets you well, Bhakta Santosh.

     Hari BOL.

     YS……. Amar Puri.

     Reply
105. Puranjana dasa says:

     11. January 2013 at 4:49 pm

     Dear Santosh, I am not sure if Sulochana “followed the principles” all the time or not. Its really not relevant to me because he is the one who went out on the battlefield and died fighting the criminal gurus, while George A. Smith said he knew about all the same crimes “years before” but he did not make a public protest like Sulochana did.

     That means Sulochana got the job done, he cracked open the whole bogus guru camp and sent them scattering (they mostly went to India after that), while others did not get the job, at all. Now, the same people who did not get the job done are critical of the person who did, that just means they are mad that Sulochana exposed their illicit sex living guru program. And people who defend that program are not following — any principles of religion. Just because the smartas were “following” does not mean they had the authority to go to the Kazi and try to have Lord Chaitanya attacked.

     And if George is saying only pot heads cand get the job done, while he could not, that means he is saying even the pot heads are vastly better than he is or ever will be. George says the pot heads are busy doing the job, and dying on the battlefield, because — he is too lazy to even lift a finger to help in the battle. What kind of argument is that, the pot heads are way better than what I am doing? This is called hypocrisy. ys pd

     Reply
106. bhakta jarek says:

     11. January 2013 at 7:00 pm

     Santosh don’t let yourself to be fooled by the TFO mystics misty occultism. Maybe this help You, it helped me , but take your time, check everything and pray strongly the whole time to the Lord. Hare Krishna.
     y.s. bj

     Reply
107. bhakta jarek says:

     11. January 2013 at 7:01 pm

     By the way, this is the link for You dear Santoshji. http://therealexplanation.org/article/flaws_concoct.html

     Reply
108. bhakta jarek says:

     11. January 2013 at 7:06 pm

     Dear Amar Puri prabhu you may of course call me a jerk, but than please don’t add the word “bhakta” to it. So It makes much more impact. You see in my language “J” is pronounced like “y” in Yamaraj, or Yamaduttas. I hope you enjoyed.
     y.s. Y

     Reply
109. Puranjana dasa says:

     11. January 2013 at 8:22 pm

     “The Real Explanation” author is Kailasha Chandra. He was here with us in Santa Cruz in 1981 (?) and he predicted (because he claimed he is an all seeing astrologer) that California is going to fall into the ocean, and the mid states like Kansas are going to be the new coastline. He was holding emergency meetings here, to tell us we had weeks to get out of town or else fall into the ocean.

     Of course, we are still here in California, and we have not fallen into the ocean. KCD now lives in Moab Utah, … the only place which will be on solid ground when we all fall into the ocean apparently. OK its a teeny town with nothing going on there, ok except there is a bunch of beef ranchers around and its a ski resort with almost nobody there.

     Kailash took half of the money from the California farm and went off with half of the cows, where are those cows now? He has been living in various apartments, but no sign of the cows he took? The other half of the cows went to Advaita, and he used the money and bought a farm for his half of the cows and he took care of them. Kailasha’s cows have disappeared, along with the money for their care?

     And KCD was married to Jadurani and he treated her far worse than dirt, which I saw personally, and is one of the reasons she ran off to Narayaana Maharaja. For the brief time Kailash returned here, he stole one the people we had made into a Prabhupadanuga and initiated him as “Riktaharsana.” OK that is the only known disciple he has, the one he stole from us.

     Other than that he is like Rocana, no temples, no current guru, no books, no programs, no public kirtananas, and the guy has a tendency to grow a big beard and look like a mountain man, …. ok from Moab Utah. Hah hah, so this woman abusing non-guru idiot who is known locally as the money stealing cattle thief, who lives in fear on a mountain waiting for the flood to come, so he is not preaching in the cities anywhere, this is the guru of Bhakta Jarek, thanks for letting us know. Yes, Bhakta Jarek worships women abusing cow rustlers who are living in fear on a mountain top. That says it all! ys pd

     Reply
110. Mahesh Raja says:

     11. January 2013 at 8:42 pm

     Santosh prabhu this Jerk fellow is canvassing for Kailash Chandra. This man is a hypocrite CONDITIONED SOUL this is HOW they TRICK you to be their SLAVES. Best worship the Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada instead of this CONDITIONED SOUL rascal who HIMSELF is under the clutches of three modes of nature Sattva guna(goodness) Rajo guna (passion) Tamo guna:

     Bg 7.14 P Knowledge of the Absolute
     Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A man bound by the hands and feet cannot free himself–he must be helped by a person who is unbound. Because the bound cannot help the bound, the rescuer MUST BE LIBERATED. Therefore, only Lord Krsna, or His bona fide representative the spiritual master, can release the conditioned soul.

     Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
     MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
     brahmano vai gurur nrnam
     sarvesam eva lokanam
     asau pujyo yatha harih
     maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
     sarva-yajnesu diksitah
     sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
     na guruh syad avaisnavah

     ((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))

     We advise THE DEVOTEES to worship OUR DIKSA GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA: let the LUNATICS worship their OWN kind.

     Reply
111. Amar Puri says:

     11. January 2013 at 9:35 pm

     Wow ….. lots of interesting stuff is coming on the surface. My interaction with Kailash Chandra who is also an Astrologer was only when his astrological interpretation of the Ascendant rising of Srila Prabhupada’s Chart as a Capricorn appeared on one of his web page. I found that his interpretation was totally concocted and I gave my feed back on his wrong interpretation which he accepted and thanked me for it.

     So in this way Kailash Chandra knowledge is very much limited in regard to the Vedic scripture including Astrology. Therefore, Kailash chandra’s comments regarding the Instructions of the Ritvik system of Srila Prabhupada is not bona fide at all because it lacks total creditability because he is an ordinary Sadharan Jiva, conditioned soul as it is pointed out very nicely by Shriman Puranjana Dasa Prabhu.

     If this J is following Kailash Chandra, then, J is like a blind person who is simply following another blind person Kailash Chandra who is conditioned soul wishes for certain Prathistha.

     More later.

     Hari BOL.

     YS……….. Amar Puri.

     Reply
112. Amar Puri says:

     11. January 2013 at 9:53 pm

     Dear Santosh,

     Hare Krishna. AGTSP.

     We all need to follow the Instructions of the Mahabhagavat who is none other than HDG. Srila Prabhupada.

     Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Goswami Maharaja explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krishna, one cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation… The true acarya, the spiritual master of the entire world, must be considered an incarnation of Krishna’s mercy. Indeed, he is personally embracing Krishna.
     (CC Antya 7.11-13 )

     Another feature of a devotee is that he lives forever because of his infallible devotion for the Lord.
     (SB 4.21.48 Purport)

     Hari BOL.

     YS…… Amar Puri.

     Reply
113. bhakta jarek says:

     12. January 2013 at 2:36 am

     Puranjana and Mahesh raj prabhu prabhus neither Kailascandra prabhu, nor Rocana das prabhu are not my gurus. I was once “initiated” with “FISKCON bija” by a so called Zonal Acharya of FISKCON and so far have enough of experiments with conditioned gurus. Of course I know a bit Kailasacandra prabhu and say to you plainly that though I don’t consider him perfect yet I do however, and few others as well do esteem his writings and life style as an outstanding example of seriousness and devotional life in pursuit of the highest truth, whereas you are pasandis calling everyone names.
     y.s bj

     Reply
114. Puranjana dasa says:

     12. January 2013 at 4:29 am

     Dear Bhakta Jarek, Kailasha Chandra is an abusive person who cheats people with his bogus astrology predictions. He even tells people in California to drop their whole life and move to Kansas, unless they want to swim in the ocean. That means he has no regard for the mayhem his bogus concocted predictions can cause others, in other words, he is just like the GBC gurus. No wonder you are attracted to him. Kailash is also afraid to even come off the mountain in Moab Utah — fearing the big quake he falsely thinks is coming, that is called bodily conception of life. He is afraid of his own bogus predictions, this means he is imprisoned by his own mind, and he has trapped you behind his mental bars. ys pd

     Reply
115. george a. smith says:

     12. January 2013 at 6:49 am

     Hum, I am wondering what part of Srila Prabhupada’s prediction that their would be pure devotees born among his disciples grand children that the Rtviks don’t want to be true?

     If for argument sake however we were to accept the Rtviks belief that Srila Prabhupada was mistaken and that therefore there are in actuality no pure devotees or livingh gurus alive today on the planet, still, in accordance with both Srila Prabhupada and Sri Rupa we would still not be so hard up as to force us into accepting Rtvik inititation as the following statements as comment shows.

     “In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”

     (The Nectar of Instruction, from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Text 5)

     In the above noted sastric evidence we see that we are being told that we should only accept initiation from a pure devotee of Krsna and, by inference, that also we should only give initiations if we are pure devotees of Krsna. Amazingly however, a permission is given that any level of devotee may initiate, just a caution is added and evidently the dynamics of such relationships are a bit different. It is enjoined that madhyama can only initiate other madhyama and kanistha can only initiate other kanistha. Evidently these types of guru/disciple relationships are more affairs among equals.

     The point of all this is that these are the alternatives to being initiated by a pure devotee of Krsna, and that although we may not like them, that doesn’t give us permission to just put a line through them and introduce our own concoctions instead.

     No other alternate is given, no other allowance, no other permission, and why should there be? Is this not an all inclusive arrangement for the initiation of everyone who wishes to become initiated? Were any of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples who are sincerely following left out?

     Certainly there is no mention here that one can accept initiation of a spiritual master after his departure. But that’s the one that the Rtviks want you to accept.

     Instead of accepting and promoting the bona fide allowances that Sri Rupa and Srila Prabhupada have made to carry on initiations, the Rtviks, being displeased with the words of Sri Rupa and Srila Prabhupada, prefer to introduce a concoction that they themselves are not even completely sure of. Maybe I am just over-reacting, but this seems to me to simply be the actions of more irresponsible mad men.

     From the above we can see that there are other options that are bonafide per Srila Prabhupada and Sri Rupa and that also that formal initiation is not at all a requirement in order to advance spiritually.

     Reply
116. bhakta jarek says:

     12. January 2013 at 8:13 am

     Hey Puranjana prabhu, please stop this concocting i haven’t spoke Kailascandra prabhu for more than one and half year ago now, so what kind of trap bars you mean. I am just not condemning everybody who i can’t stand up to. The same even with you, but your propaganda i simply can’t agree to, and i do repeat it with sorrow, you are notorious liar or at least extremely careless about the truth. We can say or think so many things about anybody, but what counts is whether and how such person tries after becomming servant of the servant of Krishna, isn’t our philosophy? KAilas may be not so good in some aspects of astrology yet, he admitted it even to me that he is not good in predictions, but what I appreciate by him is that he studies, practices and uses astrology for Krishna, not for offending or cheating others for sense pleasure. I have never hear him offending personally any devotee, neither yourself though you constantly offend him.
     y.s. bj

     Reply
117. Mahesh Raja says:

     12. January 2013 at 9:11 am

     Jarek Prabhu wrote:
     “Puranjana and Mahesh raj prabhu prabhus neither Kailascandra prabhu, nor Rocana das prabhu are not my gurus. I was once “initiated” with “FISKCON bija” by a so called Zonal Acharya of FISKCON and so far have enough of experiments with conditioned gurus. Of course I know a bit Kailasacandra prabhu and say to you plainly that though I don’t consider him perfect yet I do however, and few others as well do esteem his writings and life style as an outstanding example of seriousness and devotional life in pursuit of the highest truth, whereas you are pasandis calling everyone names.”

     Jarek Prabhu with all due respect OPEN your eyes. You have already been CHEATED by CONDITIONED SOULS posing as DIKSA Guru from ISKCON even though they had NO ORDER FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA that they are GURU. Kailash Chandra is just another CHEATER:

     From the year 1966 to 1977, Srila Prabhupada did NOT give ANY order to anyone SPECIFICALLY, “YOU become guru,” Srila Prabhupada MENTIONED NO NAMES – AT ALL!!!. HOW can you say that they are diksa guru?

     IF Srila Prabhupada would have ordered BEFORE 1977, then there would be no point in 1977 of him stating in 1977 WHEN I order. It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977, WHERE is the evidence of THAT order?

     Prabhupada: “WHEN I ORDER, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
     (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan)

     “Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he’s guru. This is the fact…Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.”
     (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972)

     “One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
     (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)

     Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
     (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975)

     Note: FACT is Srila Prabhupada states that ONLY a MAHABHAGAVATA is to be ACCEPTED as GURU Kailash Chandra the CONDITIONED SOUL KNOWS THIS yet they CHEAT by becoming Guru:

     Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
     MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
     brahmano vai gurur nrnam
     sarvesam eva lokanam
     asau pujyo yatha harih
     maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
     sarva-yajnesu diksitah
     sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
     na guruh syad avaisnavah

     ((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))

     The Third OFFENSE in chanting is to REJECT the Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada:
     NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
     The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.

     The Ritvik System is just FORMALITIES, so as per Srila Prabhupada’s instructions: “The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”

     It is being misconstrued as “introduce a new system”, BUT–FACTUALLY–it is ONLY FORMALITIES.

     Lets study the following in terms of FORMALITIES:

     1) Srila Prabhupada as a sannayasi got his disciples married. There is no verification in sastra that a sannyasi can do this.

     Srimad Bhagavatam 5.1.24 Purport – The Activities of Maharaja Priyavrata:

     “Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.”

     Srila Prabhupada’s Vyasapuja Lecture, August 22, 1973, London:

     “I’m sometimes criticized by my Godbrothers that I have become a marriage-maker, because a sannyasi does not take part in a marriage ceremony, but I get my disciples married. This is also unique in the history. So they criticize me that I have become a marriage-maker. But they, they do not know why I take this risk. I have got many disciples, they are married couples, but all of them, husband and wife, they are helping this movement. Here is Bhagavan dasa, he’s also married man, children.”

     Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Satsvarupa, September 20, 1968:

     “In your letter of the 17th instant, you have very frankly inquired from me about householder life, especially in the matter of sex relationship. A sannyasi is not supposed to be asked about anything sexual. But still, because you are so much dependent on my instruction, so I must give you information as far as possible. Married life is not for sex indulgence. The principle of marriage is on the background of getting good children. So the householder is allowed to have sex life once in a month, just after the menstrual period. The menstrual period prolongs at least for 5 days, so after this 5 days, one can have sex life provided he desires to get a child. And as soon as the wife is pregnant, no more sex life, until the child is born and is grown up at least for 6 months. After that, one may have sex life on the same principle. If one does not want more than one or two children, he should voluntarily stop sex life. But one should not strictly use any contraceptive method and at the same time indulge in sex life. That is very much sinful. If the husband and wife can voluntarily restrain by powerful advancement of Krishna Consciousness. That is the best method. It is not necessary that because one has got wife, therefore you must have sex life. The whole scheme is to avoid sex life as far as possible. And if one can avoid it completely then it is a great victory for him. Married life is a sort of license for sex life on condition of raising children. So you should try to understand these principles of married life and use your discretion. You should not imitate great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura, but you must follow His footprints. But it is not always possible to have the same success as great personalities like Bhaktivinode Thakura achieved. So in all circumstances you should try to follow the footprints of authorities but never to imitate them. Unless Jadurani develops a better health and strength, I do not advise her to become pregnant. I think you will understand the instruction as I have given and try to follow it as far as possible.”

     Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Sacisuta, July 5, 1969:

     “Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated June 23, 1969, and I have carefully gone over the contents. I am so pleased to learn that you are feeling very nicely in Buffalo temple and you are working hard and sincerely to push on this sublime movement of Krishna Consciousness. Regarding your question about marriage, the thing is that as I am a sannyasi, I am not concerned with family life, but because I want to see my disciples very happy in Krishna Consciousness, therefore, those who are feeling some sexual disturbance are requested by me to get themselves married.”

     2) Srila Prabhupada had disciples hear the TAPE of him giving Gayatri Mantra at brahmana initiation. There is no verification in sastra of this.

     Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Gaura Hari, September 24, 1971:

     “At your recommendation I have gladly consented to accept Guy as my duly initiated disciple. His letter and beads are enclosed herewith. Also enclosed are three sacred threads duly chanted by me as well as four papers with Gayatri mantra for the four devotees you have recommended for second initiation. You should secure the tape of me reciting Gayatri mantra from Makhanlal in Seattle. Let each devotee hear the tape privately, one at a time, and through the right ear. They should have the paper in front of them and hear and repeat each word. Beforehand you can show them how to count on the fingers, and beforehand hold a fire yajna and get the threads on the boys’ bodies.”

     3) Srila Prabhupada had the WIFE of one disciple read Gayatri mantra to a devotee. There is no verification in sastra of this.

     Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Vaikunthanatha, Sardia, April 4, 1971:

     “Even though you have had no gayatri mantra, still you are more than brahmana. I am enclosing herewith your sacred thread, duly chanted on by me. Gayatri mantra is as follows:

     [TAKEN OUT]

     Ask your wife to chant this mantra and you hear it and if possible hold a fire ceremony as you have seen during your marriage and get this sacred thread on your body. Saradia, or any twice-initiated devotee, may perform the ceremony.

     What Srila Prabhupada did was unprecedented in the history of Vaisnava sampradaya. But this did NOT mean he transgressed the sastra. On the contrary, sastra fully support Srila Prabhupada’s actions IN AS MUCH AS the Ritvik System is ALSO part and parcel of above FORMALITY, wherein the Ritvik Representatives are performing FORMALITIES, i.e., the fire sacrifice and name giving CEREMONIES. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.

     Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport – Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest:

     “Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”

     Srimad Bhagavatam 6.12.20 Purport – Vrtrasura’ s Glorious Death:

     “Therefore Sukadeva Gosvami says in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.18):

     kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
     abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
     ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
     sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah

     “Kiratas, Hunas, Andhras, Pulindas, Pulkasas, Abhiras, Sumbhas, Yavanas and members of the Khasa races, and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, for He is the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.” Anyone can be purified if he takes shelter of a pure devotee and molds his character according to the pure devotee’s direction. Then, even if one is a Kirata, Andhra, Pulinda or whatever, he can be purified and elevated to the position of a maha-paurusya.”

     ALL Srila Prabhupada did was change FORMALITIES in the way initiation was to be conducted in first and second initiations: “The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”

     BUT Diksa per say, when MADHYAMA adhikari receives is unchanged, as that is NOT formality

     Srila Prabhupada in the July 9th, 1977 ORDER is FORMALITY of HOW 1st and 2nd initiations were to be conducted – and THAT is ALL it was. And THIS was the change in terms of FORMALITY, nothing more.

     The INITIATED disciples were to be Srila Prabhupada’s DISCIPLES. How can you have disciples belonging to anyone else? Disciples belong to one who gives discipline. FACTUALLY we are ALL taking – DISCIPLINE – FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books, CDs, Tapes. Common sense!

     Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
     So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA — AUTOMATICALLY.

     Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.

     NoI 5
     A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

     Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
     diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
     sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
     TRANSLATION
     “At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.

     TEXT 193
     sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
     aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
     TRANSLATION
     “When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

     TEXT 194
     martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
     niveditatma vicikirsito me
     tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
     mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
     TRANSLATION
     ” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’

     PURPORT
     This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).

     Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
     SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.

     NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.

     Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles

     REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”

     Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:

     “By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.

     Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?

     Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.

     ‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
     Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.

     When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.

     Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
     KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
     Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

     CONCLUSION:

     Srila Prabhupada: I am in the initiator guru,
     75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
     The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

     680312iv.sf Conversations
     Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are INITIATED by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru.

     Reply
118. bhakta jarek says:

     12. January 2013 at 11:08 am

     Dear Mahesh prabu though your work in quoting verses (alas with a ritivk style cover up interpretation) with all due respect I am not convinced still to the very new idea of ritvik diksha in absentia which was not even once directly spoken by Srila Prabhupada himself . However maybe the brilliant comment of bhakta George Prabhu may help us in that subject. I am founding it simply wonderful! Well, I guess it may not be wonderful for you ritivks, since it is simply wonderful straight meaning explanation, not a blurred indirect meaning lay out in a mayavada, “i know it better” line style. However thank You prabhus for your time and thank you for inspiring bhakta George prabhu to write his Paramatma inspired beautiful comments. Jaya Srila Prabhupadaaaa!!!
     y.s.bj

     Reply
119. Mahesh Raja says:

     12. January 2013 at 11:34 am

     George a. Smith wrote:

     “In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”

     (The Nectar of Instruction, from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Text 5)

     In the above noted sastric evidence we see that we are being told that we should only accept initiation from a pure devotee of Krsna and, by inference, that also we should only give initiations if we are pure devotees of Krsna. Amazingly however, a permission is given that any level of devotee may initiate, just a caution is added and evidently the dynamics of such relationships are a bit different. It is enjoined that madhyama can only initiate other madhyama and kanistha can only initiate other kanistha. Evidently these types of guru/disciple relationships are more affairs among equals.”

     Mahesh: George you are BONEHEAD read this:

     NOI 5

     “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)

     Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:

     1)”..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”

     2)“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.

     The question is can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!

     So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa?
     Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is in MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge. What you do NOT have you can NOT give. And it is Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.

     Definition of Diksa:

     Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
     Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

     divyam jnanam yato dadyat
     kuryat papasya sanksayam
     tasmad dikseti sa prokta
     desikais tattva-kovidaih

     “Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”

     Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service
     Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.

     So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
     1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
     2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity

     Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION GIVE DIKSA -BY WHICH- ONE BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

     Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:

     Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?

     SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
     The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.

     Q2) If a Brahmana(Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?

     Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.

     Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination

     Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?

     Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.

     770214r2.may Conversations
     Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
     Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
     Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
     Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
     Prabhupada: Kanistha?
     Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
     Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
     Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
     Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
     arcayam eva haraye
     pujam yah sraddhayehate
     na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
     sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
     The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
     Hari-sauri: No question of?
     Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.

     760206mw.may Conversations
     Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
     Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
     Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
     Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.

     Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
     PURPORT
     This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:

     dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
     amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
     yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
     vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya

     “A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”

     Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:

     samo damas tapah saucam
     ksantir arjavam eva ca
     jnanam vijnanam astikyam
     brahma-karma svabhava-jam

     “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)

     In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:

     samo damas tapah saucam
     ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
     jnana-vijnana-santosah
     satyastikye dvisad gunah

     “Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”

     730828BG.LON Lectures
     So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.

     SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
     The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.

     Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
     So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA – AUTOMATICALLY.

     Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he is becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births – NOT so cheap.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.

     NoI 5
     A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

     Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
     diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
     sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
     TRANSLATION
     “At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.

     TEXT 193
     sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
     aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
     TRANSLATION
     “When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

     TEXT 194
     martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
     niveditatma vicikirsito me
     tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
     mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
     TRANSLATION
     ” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’

     PURPORT
     This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).

     Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
     SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.

     NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.

     Nectar of Devotion 7 – Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles

     REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”

     Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport – Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:

     “By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.

     Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?

     Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.

     ‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
     Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.

     When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.

     Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
     KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
     Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

     75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
     The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
120. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     12. January 2013 at 11:56 am

     Thanks Bhakta Jarek and Bhakta George for highlighting that present ISKCON – after Prabhupada has left – did exactly what you both are advising.

     ISKCON did exactly that, when too many gurus started to stumble, quickly appoint another contingent. The more were falling the more fuel was added in order to compensate all those failures.

     Now you and George say, there is nothing wrong with this process of appointing living gurus, either neophyte or pure, we have enough fresh supply as soon there is severe loss at the front line.

     Actually, many Prabhupadanugas didn’t interfere for many years and just watched whats happening with all those stumbling gurus being replaced by second growth.

     So this you both carefully avoid, ISKCON history 1977-2012, 41 fallen ISKCON gurus, 110 fallen sannyasis, thousands of senior devotees forced to leave because they don’t find a place to stay among all those new gurus with their teenage following.

     In sum, since 35 years thousands of devotees tried in great profusion what Bhakta Jarek and Bhakta George are teaching, go for a guru – neophyte or pure – “who is alive not dead”. With what result? Even Bhakta Jarek and Bhakta George wont think of this idea to rejoin ISKCON.

     So this is quite amazing, both, Bh. Jarek and Bh. George teach from the top of their lungs, any Tom, Dick or Harry, any loafer is your guru, main thing is he is alive and not dead. When asked why they don’t join where this is implemented, present ISKCON, present GM, Bh. Jarek & Bh George: No, we are not interested.

     So this is yet another don’t do what we do, do what we say. There seem a lot of people who are not even Vaishnavas aware of this issue and simply enter forums to rock this joint. Nice trial tho, you might be able to fool some greencard Indians.

     FYI, this issue about who is a genuine representative of God was never there within Christianity since 2000 years. Lord Jesus never fell down like your neophytes and in future never will. Westerners don’t require an experiment with neophyte gurus to whom you have to surrender everything and at the same time don’t know what will happen tomorrow. Anyone who thinks that Prabhupada brought such trial and error pseudo spirituality to the West is rather a victim of maya.

     Reply
121. bhakta jarek says:

     12. January 2013 at 12:49 pm

     We do not speak about institutions mataji, not about religions, not about making another church, but about the straight froward meaning of śastra, in this case it is Sri Upadeśamrita vers 5 by Sri Rupa Goswami Prabhupada with the comments of the current Brahma Madhava Gaudiya Sampradaya Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada Maharaja. Try for a while to get a bit transcendental to the twin brother of the ritivk scam( generally it is not possible for twins and your case is just another proof of it mata). The straight meaning conveys the straight truth and it is not pleasent to you guys since it is straight, which means pure and unchanged, sorry for you guys. After all the meaning of the Vedas will be reveald to those who posses unflinching faith in Sri Guru and Gouranga and not in the “Church of ritvik “depressed “no more guru-vadis”.
     y.s.bj

     Reply
122. Santosh says:

     12. January 2013 at 1:39 pm

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.
     All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
     From : AKeislar@aol.com
     To : pratyatosa@hotmail.com
     Subject : Re: Missing Tapes
     Date : Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:54:41 EST

     In a message dated 3/25/03 2:29:08 PM EST, pratyatosa@hotmail.com writes:

     > He is still Srila Prabhupada’s right hand man even after he helped to poison
     > him? Srila Prabhupada’s mercy must be boundless!

     You seem to have misunderstood Tamal Krishna Maharaja, as almost everyone in our movement has. He did not help poison Srila Prabhupada. He only was doing what Srila Prabhupada was instructing him–and if he did anything other than what Srila Prabhupada instructed, it was not out of disobedience but out of a very elevated love for Srila Prabhupada and a desire to serve Srila Prabhupada better.

     > What happened to the missing tapes and documents? TKG must know something
     > about this. If some of them could be found, it might help to convince the
     > TPs and maybe even some of the GBC men that Srila Prabhupada wanted the
     > ritvik system to continue.

     Tamal Krishna Maharaja did not selfishly conceal those tapes, as some persons have surmised. And even if they were to be found, they would not convince people. How could those tapes be more clear than what we already have? Srila Prabhupada plainly answered the question about how initiations were supposed to go on, especially after he left, with the famous statement that he would appoint some officiating acaryas. So if they could twist this crystal clear statement to mean just the opposite of what Srila Prabhupada plainly said, they will be able to twist anything. Besides, I am convinced that Srila Prabhupada and Tamal Krishna Maharaja had very confidential discussions about how to adjust things to accomodate the overly ambitious devotees who wanted to be independent acaryas, and these discussions would be very, very difficult for most devotees to understand, even today.

     I hope this meets you in the best of health and Krsna consciousness.

     Your servant, Amoghalila das

     From : “Pratyatosa Dasa”
     To : AKeislar@aol.com
     Subject : You are probably right, Prabhu, but…
     Date : 26 Mar 2003

     ….what about the following:

     1. The devotees who listen closely to the “whispers” seem to be convinced that something very sinister was afoot.

     2. The July 9th letter was not included in the Vedabase until 1990.

     3. The GBC tried to hide Srila Prabhupada’s will.

     4. Naveen Krishna Prabhu, whom I have very much respect for, seems convinced that there was a conspiracy to poison Srila Prabhupada before he had a chance to formalized the post-samadhi ritvik system of initiations at the 1978 GBC meetings. He should know, because he worked with these people as a fellow GBC man for many years.

     5. TKG seems to have participated in a conspiracy to harass and even excommunicate anyone who wanted to follow Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions on ritvik.

     The above are things that I’m concerned about, but more important, what about the future? How long do we have to wait until Srila Prabhupada is allowed to again begin initiating within ISKCON? Do you think that Srila Prabhupada’s desire for another “TP’s rebellion” will actually happen?

     Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa

     (No Reply)

     After this, he seems to have gone completely silent.

     In any case, I had/have the feeling that Amoghalila Prabhu was/is sincere.

     Ys, Ptd

     If all this was true and Amoghalila Prabhu is sincere,then should we accept Tamal Krsna Maharaj as a mahabhagavat,since he is now with Prabhupada?And then,should we accept whatever he has done after Prabhupada’s disappearance as “done out of love for Prabhupada”?I am simply unable to accept this…because we know that Tamal Krsna Maharaj was in coma after the accident and Prabhupada has said(Mahesh Raja Prabhu has provided some quotes about this)that coma is not a very good sign of going back to Godhead.But we are informed that the 11 “appointed”gurus were simply Prabhupada’s offenders.
     So, I humbly beg for a reply from Pratyosa prabhu about how I should go about with this question of mine…

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
123. Santosh says:

     12. January 2013 at 1:42 pm

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.
     All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
     One thing is for sure….whether or not I become formally initiated I will continue to chant and read Prabhupada’s books…I must honestly admit that the devotees in this site have helped me to cultivate this desire and longing to become pure.

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
124. george a. smith says:

     12. January 2013 at 2:59 pm

     As I mentioned earlier, because of their unique capacity of thr domesticsted primates to learn neurosemantic systems such as languages it becomes possible for it to own, or to think that it owns, controls and lords it over symbolic as well as physical or spiritual territories. Such symbolic territories are commonly called ideologies or belief systems, or the Krsna consciousness movement.
     Not only do domesticated primates, or polished hogs anddogs or “devotees” acting in animal consciousness, unguided ny the twin lamps of shastra and reason; confuse symbolic territories with physical territories but they confuse symbolic territories with spiritual realities as well. Unfortunately, not only do they confuse their own selves but they confuse others as well.
     That there is a difference between the symbolic territory vs the spiritual reality, that one in the possession of the polished hogs and dogs is actually only metaphoric while the one in the possession of the great devotees and acrayas is non different from the apparent symbolic representation and the spiritual reality that it indicates is indicated by the following.
     First from the preface of Srila Prabhupadas Bhagavad Gita As It Is:
     If personally I have any credit in this matter, it is only that I have tried to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without adulteration. Before my presentation of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, almost all the English editions of Bhagavad-gītā were introduced to fulfill someone’s personal ambition. But our attempt, in presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, is to present the mission of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Our business is to present the will of Kṛṣṇa, not that of any mundane speculator like the politician, philosopher or scientist, for they have very little knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, despite all their other knowledge. When Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru, etc., we, unlike the so-called scholars, do not say that Kṛṣṇa and His inner spirit are different. Kṛṣṇa is absolute, and there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa’s name, Kṛṣṇa’s form, Kṛṣṇa’s quality, Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes, etc. This absolute position of Kṛṣṇa is difflcult to understand for any person who is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa in the paramparā (disciplic succession) system. Generally the so-called scholars, politicians, philosophers, and svāmīs, without perfect knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, try to banish or kill Kṛṣṇa when writing commentary on Bhagavad-gītā. Such unauthorized commentary upon Bhagavad-gītā is known as Māyāvādī-Bhāṣya, and Lord Caitanya has warned us about these unauthorized men. Lord Caitanya clearly says that anyone who tries to understand Bhagavad-gītā from the Māyāvādī point of view will commit a great blunder. The result of such a blunder will be that the misguided student of Bhagavad-gītā will certainly be bewildered on the path of spiritual guidance and will not be able to go back home, back to Godhead.
     Our only purpose is to present this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is in order to guide the conditioned student to the same purpose for which Kṛṣṇa descends to this planet once in a day of Brahmā, or every 8,600,000,000 years. This purpose is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, and we have to accept it as it is; otherwise there is no point in trying to understand the Bhagavad-gītā and its speaker, Lord Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa first spoke Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god some hundreds of millions of years ago. We have to accept this fact and thus understand the historical significance of Bhagavad-gītā, without misinterpretation, on the authority of Kṛṣṇa. To interpret Bhagavad-gītā without any reference to the will of Kṛṣṇa is the greatest offense. In order to save oneself from this offense, one has to understand the Lord as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as He was directly understood by Arjuna, Lord Kṛṣṇa’s first disciple. Such understanding of Bhagavad-gītā is really profitable and authorized for the welfare of human society in fulfilling the mission of life.
     The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential in human society, for it offers the highest perfection of life. How this is so is explained fully in the Bhagavad-gītā. Unfortunately, mundane wranglers have taken advantage of Bhagavad-gītā to push forward their demonic propensities and mislead people regarding right understanding of the simple principles of life.

     Secondly we present the following
     Paper by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura
     THAKUR BHAKTIVINODE
     We avail of the opportunity offered by the Anniversary Celebrations of the advent of Thakur Bhaktivinode to reflect on the right method of obtaining those benefits that have been made accessible to humanity by the grace of this great devotee of Krishna. Thakur Bhaktivinode has been specifically kind to those unfortunate persons who are engrossed in mental speculation of all kinds. This is the prevalent malady of the present Age. The other Acaryas who appeared before Thakur Bhaktivinode did not address their discourses so directly to the empiric thinkers. They had been more merciful to those who are naturally disposed to listen to discourses on the Absolute without being dissuaded by the specious arguments of avowed opponents of Godhead.

     Srila Thakur Bhaktivinode has taken the trouble of meeting the perverse arguments of mental speculationists by the superior transcendental logic of the Absolute Truth. It is thus possible for the average modern readers to profit by the perusal of his writings. That day is not far distant when the priceless volumes penned by Thakur Bhaktivinode will be reverently translated, by the recipients of his grace, into all the languages of the world.

     The writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode provide the golden bridge by which the mental speculationist can safely cross the raging waters of fruitless empiric controversies that trouble the peace of those who choose to trust in their guidance for finding the Truth. As soon as the sympathetic reader is in a position to appreciate the sterling quality of Thakur Bhaktivinode’s philosophy the entire vista of the revealed literatures of the world will automatically open out to his reclaimed vision.

     There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakur Bhaktivinode. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakur Bhaktivinode. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes.

     The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode. The Editor of this Journal, originally started by Thakur Bhaktivinode, has been trying to draw the attention of all followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode to this all-important point of his teachings. It is not necessary to try to place ourselves on a footing of equality with Thakur Bhaktivinode. We are not likely to benefit by any mechanical imitation of any practices of Thakur Bhaktivinode on the opportunist principle that they may be convenient for us to adopt. The Guru is not an erring mortal whose activities can be understood by the fallible reason of unreclaimed humanity. There is an eternally impassable line of demarcation between the Saviour and the saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this.Thakur Bhaktivinode belongs to the category of the spiritual world-teachers who eternally occupy the superior position.

     The present Editor has all along felt it his paramount duty to try to clear up the meaning of the life and teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode by the method of submissive listening to the Transcendental Sound from the lips of the pure devotee. The Guru who realises the transcendental meaning of all sounds, is in a position to serve the Absolute by the direction of the Absolute conveyed through every sound. The Transcendental Sound is Godhead, the mundane sound is non-Godhead. All sound has got these opposite aptitudes. All sound reveals its Divine face to the devotee and only presents its deluding aspect to the empiric pedant. The devotee talks apparently the same language as the deluded empiric pedant who had got by heart the vocabulary of the Scriptures. But notwithstanding apparent identity of performance, the one has no access to the reality while the other is absolutely free from all delusion.

     Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name “Krishna”. Every reader of Thakur Bhaktivinode’s works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krishna by the process conveyed by the words.

     Thakur Bhaktivinode did not want us to go to the clever mechanical reciter of the mundane sound for obtaining access to the Transcendental Name of Krishna. Such a person may be fully equipped with all the written arguments in explanation of the nature of the Divine Name. But if we listen to all these arguments from the dead source the words will only increase our delusion. The very same words coming from the lips of the devotee will have the diametrically opposite effect. Our empiric judgment can never grasp the difference between the two performances. The devotee is always right. The non-devotee in the shape of the empiric pedant is always and necessarily wrong. In the one case there is always present the Substantive Truth and nothing but the Substantive Truth. In the other case there is present the apparent or misleading hypothesis and nothing but un-truth. The wording may have the same external appearance in both cases. The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and the non-devotee, may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures.

     It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase. There are not a few dupes of their empiric Scriptural erudition. These dupes have their admiring under-dupes. But the mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves.

     What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.

     Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one’s own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

     The writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the Truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the Transcendental Sound appearing on His lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakur Bhaktivinode we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude, with which as the indispensable pre-requisite, to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavour to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the Scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode and for the same reason.

     The person to whom the Acarya is pleased to transmit his power is alone in a position to convey the Divine Message. This constitutes the underlying principle of the line of succession of the spiritual teachers. The Acarya thus authorised has no other duty than that of delivering intact the message received from all his predecessors. There is no difference between the pronouncements of one Acarya and another. All of them are perfect mediums for the appearance of the Divinity in the Form of the Transcendental Name Who is identical with His Form, Quality, Activity and Paraphernalia.

     The Divinity is Absolute Knowledge. Absolute Knowledge has the character of indivisible Unity. One particle of the Absolute Knowledge is capable of revealing all the potency of the Divinity. Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piece-meal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the Truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

     In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakur Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the Realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by a deceptive bye-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakur Bhaktivinode is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

     Thakur Bhaktivinode’s greatest gift to the world consists in this; that he has brought about the appearance of those pure devotees who are, at present, carrying on the movement of unalloyed devotion to the Feet of Shree Krishna by their own wholetime spiritual service of the Divinity. The purity of the soul is only analogously describable by the resources of the mundane language. The highest ideal of empiric morality is no better than the grossest wickedness to the Transcendental perfect purity of the bonafide devotee of the Absolute. The word ‘morality’ itself is a mischievous misnomer when it is applied to any quality of the conditioned soul. The hypocritical contentment with a negative attitude is part and parcel of the principle of undiluted immorality.

     Those who pretend to recognise the Divine Mission of Thakur Bhaktivinode without aspiring to the unconditional service of those pure souls who really follow the teachings of the Thakur by the method enjoined by the scriptures and explained by Thakur Bhaktivinode in a way that is so eminently suited to the requirements of the sophisticated mentality of the present Age, only deceive themselves and their willing victims by their hypocritical professions and performances. These persons must not be confounded with the bonafide members of the flock.

     Thakur Bhaktivinode has predicted the consummation of religious unity of the world by the appearance of the only universal church which bears the eternal designation of the Brahma Sampradaya. He has given mankind the blessed assurance that all Theistic churches will shortly merge in the one eternal spiritual community by the grace of the Supreme Lord Shree Krishna Chaitanya. The spiritual community is not circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off Divine Event through the Long Ages. Thakur Bhaktivinode has made the conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of enlightenment. The key stone of the Arch has been laid which will afford the needed shelter to all awakened animation under its ample encircling arms. Those who would thoughtlessly allow their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue to stand in the way of this long hoped for consummation, would have to thank only themselves for not being incorporated in the spiritual society of all pure souls.

     These plain words need not be misrepresented, by arrogant persons who are full of the vanity of empiric ignorance, as the pronouncements of aggressive sectarianism. The aggressive pronouncement of the concrete Truth is the crying necessity of the moment for silencing the aggressive propaganda of specific untruths that is being carried on all over the world by the preachers of empiric contrivances for the amelioration of the hard lot of conditioned souls. The empiric propaganda clothes itself in the language of negative abstraction for deluding those who are engrossed in the selfish pursuit of worldly enjoyment.

     But there is a positive and concrete function of the pure soul which should not be perversely confounded with any utilitarian form of worldly activity. Mankind stands in need of that positive spiritual function of which the hypocritical impersonalists are in absolute ignorance. The positive function of the soul harmonises the claims of extreme selfishness with those of extreme self-abnegation in the society of pure souls even in this mundane world. In its concrete realisable form the function is perfectly inaccessible to the empiric understanding. Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead.

     Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,
     The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6
     Lastly we offer the words of Lord Jesus Christ iluustrating the transformative qualities of the spiritually substantive words of the pore devotees of Krsna. From the Gospel of Thomas, this particular saying being auspiciously numbered as 108
     108. Jesus said, “Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him.”
     Weak biological drives and territorial imperatives result in displays of typical primate pugnacity when their claims to possession of the House that Srila Prabhupada built for all the world to live in is challenged by anyone who sees through the twin lamps of reason and shastra such as Rocana dasa does, most usually that is. In response to such challenghes issued in the form of such intellectual papers such as DOR rather than elevating themselves by the usage of their minds up to the level of a human being they degrade themselves to positions lower in fact than that of mere animals. It is unfortunate but that is the situation within our movement today in which we find polished hogs and dogs in the possession of both ISKCON and the Rtviks camps. Can either be purified and redeemed to offer to the world just what Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya intends, I think so, but you are going to have to start sometime and somewhere.
     Of those pure devotees that Srila Prabhupada predicted who would be born to his disciples childrens children, whose to say that there are not already not several in the Rtvik camp who are continuously in touch with him, even as they play. What are you going to do when those pure devotees of Krsna begin to initiate upon Srila Prabhupadas behalf?

     Reply
125. Puranjana dasa says:

     12. January 2013 at 3:29 pm

     Yes, neither Jarek, George, Rocana, Kailash, actually none of them, will ever surrender to any of these bogus living gurus in ISKCON or anywhere else. This is all a bluff. Nor is anyone going to join Jarek’s money stealing / cow stealing fruity cake bogus astrologer wanna-be messiah, who is living alone in Moab Utah. Neither is anyone rushing off to be with Rocana, who for many years lived on a island with no devotees, but he apparently now goes to the Vancouver ISKCON temple.

     OK, notice that no one is running off to join George’s pal Rocana, so they can visit the Vancouver ISKCON temple and be with Rocana, and look every day on the altar to see bhogha being offered to photos of Bhakti Marga swami, Sivarama swami, Gopal Krishna swami etc. Rocana has no separate program at all, he is mainly working every day with these bogus guru’s program.

     Whereas here, our Sunnyvale ritvik temple is going gangbusters, we have and all kinds of nice people coming. In other words, we have a wonderful working model of what we are talking about, whereas these people have no programs, no temples, no books going out, nothing but basically living alone with no preaching programs at all, or maybe at best sometimes getting out to look at the view from the mountains in Moab Utah,…. they are simply preaching anti-Prabhupada worship, but they have nothing to show for their own program.

     GEORGE: “In the above noted sastric evidence we see that we are being told that we should only accept initiation from a pure devotee of Krsna and, by inference, that also we should only give initiations if we are pure devotees of Krsna. Amazingly however, a permission is given that any level of devotee may initiate, just a caution is added and evidently the dynamics of such relationships are a bit different. It is enjoined that madhyama can only initiate other madhyama and kanistha can only initiate other kanistha. Evidently these types of guru/disciple relationships are more affairs among equals.”

     PD: And that is why none of these GBC gurus, nor their wanna-be clones like Rocana, accept each other as gurus, because they are equals. In other words, Rocana is simply a guru wanna-be which makes him an equal to these GBC gurus.

     He cannot surrender to them, and if you analyse it — he exhorts people to surrender to him, thus — anyone who does not name the guru they are promoting, are promoting themselves as gurus. So they are all equals, guru wanna-be’s.

     Yes, the GBC gurus are saying Srila Prabhupada’s worship is bogus, which is a means of focusing on themselves, and Jarek, George, Kailash, Rocana are saying the same exact thing, Srila Prabhupada’s worship is bogus — so people can focus on living people like them and their idiot non-existing living guru ideology, ok they are promoting themselves, so they are equals with the bogus GBC gurus. They have the same living guru ideology, its just that people like Kailash are only able to steal money and cows and he was not able to steal an entire temple. So they are ALL trying to steal away followers of Srila Prabhupada, just like the GBC gurus, they are all birds of a feather. Equals. ys pd

     Reply
126. Mahesh Raja says:

     12. January 2013 at 6:17 pm

     POISON ISSUE

     Prabhupada: SO THEY MAY KILL ME ALSO.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada was aware of the plot to kill him in 1976.
     So the question is WHO is “they”?

     760503rc.hon Conversations
     Prabhupada: This is our position. Gradually they will show Hare Krsna
     movement. In India also, although India’s… They will want to crush down
     this movement. So this will be up to Him. Krsna or Krsna’s movement, the
     same thing. And Krsna was attempted to be killed by Kamsa class of men and
     his company, the demons. So it will be there; it is already there. Don’t be
     disappointed, because that is the meaning that it is successful. Krsna’s
     favor is there, because Krsna and Krsna’s movement is not different,
     nondiff…, identical. So as Krsna was attempted to be killed, many, many
     years before He appeared… At eighth child, if the mother produces child
     yearly, still ten years, eight years before His birth, the mother was to be
     attempted to be killed. So there may be attempt like that. And Lord Jesus
     Christ was killed. SO THEY MAY KILL ME ALSO.

     Note: Trouble from Subordinates Juniors(disciples “they”)
     770811rc.vrn Conversations
     Abhirama: So I went to see the astrologer with Yasodanandana Swami, and he
     did more calculations on your chart.
     Prabhupada: You can get on light.
     Abhirama: So basically he explained when the difficult times will come,
     according to the planets. Then he made it very clear that beyond the
     planetary influence, it would be very difficult for calculations for a
     person in your position. For an ordinary man he can say very clearly. And he
     can say for you which planets will disturb, but he cannot say for sure how
     much they will affect, because being a saintly person, there is naturally
     some resistance to these influences. So he made that very clear, that you
     should not think that these are final. So he said, according to your birth,
     the longevity shows very clearly. And then he gave a date. The longevity is
     eighty-one years, five months and twenty-nine days, which means February 28,
     1978, six months from now. This is according to birth and stars arrangement.
     But on this point he made it very clear that this was from your birth, this
     was set, but it can change. Due to pious activities, due to the hand of
     Krsna, this can change. So… And then he described that during the next six
     months, the first week of September, Saturn will pass over Ketu, and it will
     agitate the influence of Ketu even more. So the first week of September the
     resistance will go down, will become weaker. THEN HE MENTIONED THAT THERE MAY BE SOME TROUBLE FROM…, MAYBE FINANCIAL OR MAYBE FROM JUNIORS, FROM SUBORDINATES

     Note: Srila Prabhupada KNEW he was going to be killed by “they” (disciples)
     Otherwise why does he say BETTER KILL ME HERE.
     771022rc.vrn Conversations
     Bhavananda: Therefore we asked you yesterday for your guidance.
     Prabhupada: No, I’ll guide. Don’t move me to the hospital. BETTER KILL ME
     HERE.

     Note: It is a particularly astounding statement to be made at the time
     when Srila Prabhupada KNEW he was going to pass away soon. Marica was under
     the order of Ravana to kill Rama (which he knew he was not capable of).
     Ravana would kill Marica; If he failed to accomplish Ravana’s order. So
     either way Marica knew he was going to be killed. (By being killed by Rama
     Marica would be fortunate as it opened the door of liberation).
     Srila Prabhupada similarly KNEW he would be killed.
     Srila Prabhupada had the following choices: 1) to have him killed in hospital (which “they”would have done –also!)
     2) to be killed by his own disciples at KrishnaBalarama Temple (who were poisoning him) while hearing
     Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare /Hare Rama Hare Rama
     Rama Rama Hare Hare. These were the TWO options. The option to ENGAGE his
     disciples in devotional service chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra even to the last
     end was what he chose in spite of (“they”) their evil intent to kill him.
     Note : Srila Prabhupada is talking of BEING KILLED by EITHER PARTY. Let us note that Parikarma with buffalos was danger in his state of health BUT the OTHER issue was THE POISONERS who will NOT let him go they were determined to KILL him THERE if he stayed INSIDE.
     771110rc.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: THE RAVANA WILL KILL AND RAMA WILL KILL. BETTER TO BE KILLED BY
     RAMA. EH? That Marica–if he does not go to mislead Sita, he’ll be killed by
     Ravana; and if he goes to be killed by Rama, then it is better.
     Tamala Krsna: WHO is this Prabhupada’s talking about?

     Note: HOY TO TAI. (Its possible), “YE SAB FRIENDS” (THESE ALL FRIENDS),
     “they” these are VERY SELECTIVE WORDS of a CAREFUL SPEECH. They are POINTING WORDS.

     Conversation Mixture of English, Hindi and Bengali (9/11/77)
     Srila Prabhupada: Keu bole je keu poison kore diyeche. HOY TO TAI.
     Translation: Someone says that I’ve been poisoned. IT’S POSSIBLE.

     Balaram Mishra (?): Hmm?

     Kaviraja: Kya farma rahe hain?
     Translation: What is he saying?

     Srila Prabhupada: Koi bolta hai je koi mujhko poison kiya gaya hai.
     Translation: Someone says that someone has given poison.

     Kaviraja: Kisko?
     Translation: To whom?

     Srila Prabhupada: Mujhko.
     Translation: To me.

     Kaviraja: Kaun bolta hai?
     Translation: Who said?

     Srila Prabhupada: YE SAB FRIENDS.
     Translation: THESE ALL FRIENDS.

     Bhakticharu: Ke boleche, Srila Prabhupada?
     Translation: Who said, Srila Prabhupada?

     Srila Prabhupada: Ke boleche.
     Translation: They all say.

     Tamal Krishna: Krishna das?

     Kaviraja: Ao ko kaun poison dega? Kis liye dega?
     Translation: Who would give you poison? Why would anyone do that?

     Tamal Krishna: Who said that, Srila Prabhupada?

     Srila Prabhupada: I do not know, but it is said.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada’s consciousness was not like a conditioned soul sleep
     in ignorance. From this it is evident HE DID HEAR THE WHISPERS OF “they” WHO WERE POISONING HIM. Srila Prabhupada was FULLY CONSCIOUS of ALL that was going on. He could hear EVERYTHING.
     Srila Prabhupada: I do not know, BUT IT IS SAID.
     **IF** Srila Prabhupada was in a deep slumber of a conditioned soul-he would
     have NOT heard. BUT he DID HEAR-therefore “BUT IT IS SAID”. Who ” they” are he does not wish to disclose DIRECTLY.

     There is also a DEFINITE link between the 9th July letter to society on the
     order of RITVIK system. Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions are that he
     Srila Prabhupada is the Initiating Guru of ISKCON. This ORDER was NEVER
     REVOKED by Srila Prabhupada. THIS signalled warrant for his kill! Srila
     Prabhupada did not compromise: HE WAS** THE** GURU OF ISKCON. This was
     unacceptable to “they” (Srila Prabhupada murderers).

     The motives of these disciples (“they”, Srila Prabhupada murderers) were to
     somehow or other GET RID OF this July 9th 1977 directive-in order to
     implement their devious plan.
     Now “they” who poisoned Srila Prabhupada knew and feared all devotees would
     find out. So in the beginning it was HIDDEN from the majority of devotees.
     Why? And eventually it was the banned “ritvik” devotees who distributed
     thousands of this 9th July 1977 directive ALL OVER THE WORLD. “They” had to
     respond-no choice. Devotees ALL OVER THE WORLD FOUND OUT.

     Hear this feeble excuse? “Tamal Krsna typed it out -Srila Prabhupada just
     signed it. ”

     So—-Srila Prabhupada had signed MANY transactions, letters to devotees,
     the Incorporation of ISKCON in USA etc. **IF** July 9th 1977 letter is
     rejected as having been Tamal Krsna’s “personal choice” -then ISKCON
     Incorporation, letters to devotees EVERYTHING typed by devotees and signed
     by Srila Prabhupada would be discarded on the same merit. See how CRAZY it
     looks!!. Srila Prabhupada KNEW EXACTLY what he signed.
     Tamal Krsna’s position was as a SECRETARY and Srila Prabhupada was THE BOSS. Secretary can type, design letter according to THE WISHES of THE BOSS.
     Secretary’s position is SUBSERVIENT to the BOSS— not independent.

     Why “they” had THE MOTIVE FOR MURDER OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.:
     1) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” have free
     servants/slaves(disciples).
     2) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” have the satisfaction of
     worship of themselves replacing Srila Prabhupada as the Initiator.
     3) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” have the daksina MONEY for
     their own lusty desires.
     Free income from servant/slave(disciple).
     4) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” OWN properties, usurp temples.
     5) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” manipulate devotees.
     6) Discarding the RITVIK system means “they” prevent Srila Prabhupada’s
     ORIGINAL BOOKS from printing/ distributing in LARGE quantities.
     7) Discarding the Ritvik system means “they” and KEY men Temple Presidents
     etc loot exploit the ISKCON society funds

     Note:”They” Srila Prabhupada murderers destination:
     Isopanisad 12
     The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional
     service–which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of
     Godhead–one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death.
     In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully
     depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving
     the Lord. THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS
     RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD.
     SUCH VIOLATORS OF RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE AUTHORITATIVE ACARYAS, THE HOLY TEACHERS IN THE STRICT DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. **THEY** IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–“ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA”—and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.”
     Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called
     acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.
     These rogues are the MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the
     state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly
     declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious
     propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg.
     16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

     Question: Just HOW MUCH poison was given IN THE NAME of MEDICINE or MIXED WITH medicine?
     771028r2.vrn Conversations
     Bhakti-caru: Pressure is good. When Dr. Ghosh came, that other Dr. Ghosh
     came… (Hindi) …pressure, 180 and 80. (Hindi) He’s saying that in this
     condition, Prabhupada can’t take makara-dhvaja. THAT ANY MEDICINE THAT
     CONTAINS MERCURY AND ARSENIC IS POISON TO HIM.
     Bhavananda: That’s what Prabhupada said.
     Tamala Krsna: That is a fact. HE FOUND THAT TO BE TRUE

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Note: sceptics may disagree but Srila Prabhupada gives here HIS verdict from HIS OWN MOUTH.
     WHY does Srila Prabhupada say YES?

     Srila Prabhupada : YES
     771031r3.vrn Conversations
     Tamala Krsna: We certainly have… We might as well try. We’ve tried
     everyone else.
     Prabhupada: Hm.
     Tamala Krsna: So let us try.
     Bhavananda: He did agree with YOUR OWN DIAGNOSIS, PRABHUPADA. HE SAID
     MAKARADHVAJA AT THIS POINT WOULD BE POISON AND TODAY YOU SAID THAT IT WAS POISON.
     Prabhupada: YES.
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     771031r3.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: …taking poison. The body is already finished.
     Upendra: What is that?
     Tamala Krsna: HE SAID, “IF YOU THINK I’M TAKING POISON, that the body is
     already finished.”
     Prabhupada: So dead body, you take poison or ambrosia, it is the same. Blind
     man, night or day–the same thing. Rather, if you depend on miracle, pray to
     Krsna that “He may survive.
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Tamal Krsna KNEW that ARSENIC was POISON. HOW MUCH QUANTITY did he ADD to the medicine?
     “681129BG.LA Lectures
     Prabhupada: Now, “pervades the body,” that is consciousness. The soul is
     very small, but… Just like you take one grain of, what is called, poison?
     Snake poison? Arsenic? Poison called? What is called? Yes, venom poison.
     Tamala Krsna: ARSENIC IS POISON.
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     WHY is it RELEVANT to bring in the “KILL” by either side? Especially at THIS TIME when Prabhupada KNEW he was going to pass away.
     771110rc.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: THE RAVANA WILL KILL AND RAMA WILL KILL. BETTER TO BE KILLED BY
     RAMA. EH? That Marica–if he does not go to mislead Sita, he’ll be killed by
     Ravana; and if he goes to be killed by Rama, then it is better.
     Tamala Krsna: Who is this Prabhupada’s talking about?

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Note: Srila Prabhupada sends Tamal OUT of the room THIS is when POISON was
     mentioned in HINDI

     771108rc.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: No. (break) (Hindi) Tamala Krsna?
     Tamala Krsna: Yes, Prabhupada.
     Prabhupada: Give facility for him, ten rupees.
     Tamala Krsna: This gentleman?
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Tamala Krsna: Ten rupees.
     Prabhupada: And some fruits.
     Tamala Krsna: Uncut.
     Prabhupada: Uncut, yes.
     Tamala Krsna: Okay.
     Indian man: (Hindi)
     Kaviraja: (Hindi)
     Prabhupada: (Hindi)
     Tamala Krsna: I’ll give him the fruits now, Srila Prabhupada? I have some
     fruits. I can give him now?
     Prabhupada: Hm. (Hindi)
     Tamala Krsna: WHAT DID PRABHUPADA SAY?
     Note: TKG wanted to KNOW if Srila Prabhupada had told them ABOUT HIS POISONING – because PERHAPS ***THIS** was the ONLY chance Srila Prabhupada had to inform OUTSIDE WORLD what was ACTUALLY taking place.
     AND he was speaking in HINDI so this “FRIENDS” will not hear it.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada says don’t torture me
     and put to death. WHY say this UNLESS IT IS HAPPENING!!!

     771103rc.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: That is my only request, that at the last stage don’t torture me
     and put to death. So I am not eating anything, and if we chant, by batches
     chant, I’ll hear. (Bengali)
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     771108rc.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: (Hindi–mentions word “poison”)
     Kaviraja: (Hindi)
     Devotee: SOMEONE GAVE HIM POISON HERE.
     Kaviraja: (Hindi long explanation)
     Tamala Krsna: PRABHUPADA WAS THINKING THAT SOMEONE HAD POISONED HIM.

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     771018r2.vrn Conversations
     Tamala Krsna: I mean we have to go on some basis, Srila Prabhupada. And from
     the… What we can see, we can see. Whatever you ate turned into stool. Now,
     that is a good sign. That’s a good sign. If it didn’t come out of its own
     accord, that’s due to less strength. And by drinking a lot yesterday, this
     morning the urine becomes clear, and by taking those medicines. These are
     actual, factual things we can observe. One thing is, you don’t feel able to
     sleep. That’s a bad thing. And the other thing is your being so weak
     condition that your willpower is weakened. Your determination is weakened.
     So so far as those two problems go, for sleeping I know that something can
     be given to help you to sleep. So far willpower, if you allow us to take
     care of you, then I think that should be the willpower. OF COURSE, I MEAN
     WE’RE NOT GOING TO LET THEM DO ANYTHING BAD. I MEAN I’M NOT GOING TO LET ANYBODY TAKE YOU TO THE HOSPITAL. I WOULDN’T HAVE DONE IT IN LONDON , EXCEPT THAT YOU YOURSELF SAID WE SHOULD DO IT. Otherwise your instructions told to
     everybody, “Don’t let them take me to a hospital.” So we’re not thinking
     like that. Neither I’m going to let anybody put any, take any blood specimen
     or any of those things. It’s not required. These things which they’re giving
     you are not… The only harmful effect is that you cannot sleep. But that
     can be given. To help you sleep can be helped. Otherwise this kaviraja’s
     medicine, it may be less agitating to take, but does it actually work? Now
     for nearly half a day you have drank only one time a little bit. But you
     want us to take care of you and help you, then I think you should accept
     these… I mean they’re very reasonable arguments.
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Note: Hospital means Poison SYMPTOMS would SHOW.

     771103rc.vrn Conversations
     Tamala Krsna: I said supposing someone threatens us with our life, that “We
     will kill you if you don’t let us take your Guru Maharaja to the hospital,”
     still, we will not let them take you. Your order is our business to follow,
     even at the risk of our life. SO WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE YOU TO THE
     HOSPITAL UNDER ANY CONDITION. Neither… Not only is it your order, but we
     also see absolutely no benefit from these hospitals. Your order is
     sufficient, but apart from that, also, from our own limited intelligence, we
     also see that the hospitals are condemned. These doctors are blind, these
     allopathic doctors.

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     The ACARYA of the GREAT institution does NOT make frivolous comments like a mundaner. His instructions are GUIDANCE for humanity.
     771022rc.vrn Conversations
     Bhavananda: Therefore we asked you yesterday for your guidance.
     Prabhupada: No, I’ll guide. Don’t move me to the hospital. BETTER KILL ME
     HERE.

     If one is AT ALL SERIOUS in knowing the TRUTH then the least they have to go thru all this PLUS the CDs whispers. Tamal Krishna Goswami’s voice is CLEAR “poison is going down”
     EVEN the most uneducated person who is SINCERE will accept WHERE is the POISON going down – they have made Srila Prabhupada DRINK IT and it is GOING
     DOWN HIS THROAT. There were few voices captured. 1) Tamal Krishna Goswami 2) Bhavananda who was there when he RESPONDED: HUH. There was one voice INDIAN who mentioned poison in the background. 3) There was a voice that said Jaya it could be Jayapataka or Jayadwaita or BOTH. 4) there was a apparently Indian voice that said “Pyabhaichary poison is put in the Milk.”

     Letters 70-01-30
     Letter to: Jayadvaita Los Angeles
     30 January, 1970

     Boston

     My Dear Jayadvaita,
     Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge recept of your letter dated 28 January, 1970.
     I am very glad to learn that Nectar of Devotion is now completed. You have inquired about the quality number 63 of Krishna that He is surrounded by loving devotees can be explained as follows: When we speak of Krishna, Krishna is not alone. Krishna means His name, His qualities, His fame, His friends, His paraphernalia, His entourage–everything included. Just like when we speak of a king, it is to be understood that he is surrounded by ministers, secretaries, military commanders and many other people. Krishna is not impersonal, so in His Vrindaban Lila especially, He is always surrounded by the Gopis, cowherd boys, His father, His mother and all the inhabitants of Vrindaban.
     Regarding your second question, Pyabhaichary, you have got 31 only out of 33. I think some of the brackets are not counted. So if the parentheses are removed from “intoxication” and “impotency” and they are also counted, the total of symptoms will come to 33. Simply add commas after the preceeding symptoms namely “prestige” and “impudence” respectively.
     Regarding the third point: all kinds of mellow includes servitude. Therefore a mixture of servitude and parenthood is not incompatible. So Ugrasena’s mellow is correctly written as mixed with servitude and parental affection and the statement in part IV should be corrected to state that a mixture of parenthood and servitude is a compatible one.
     I hope this will meet you in good health.

     Your ever well-wisher,
     A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

     ACBS:db

     A point to note : Jayapataka was always in the company of Tamala Krishna Goswami and Bhavananda. AND if TKG was involved we KNOW Bhavananda gave himself away THEN Jayapataka MUST be there. no? MOTIVE is there.

     The following site has whispers of the poison givers:

     http://hearfromsrilaprabhupada.info/

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Subj: Hoy to tai.
     Date: 11/18/99 8:20:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
     From: mahesh.r@virgin.net (Mahesh Raja)
     Reply-to: mahesh.r@virgin.net (Mahesh Raja)
     To: adri@cwcom.net (Adridharan das)
     Dear Adridharana Dasa Prabhu
     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obeisances.

     The GBC’s “Official Investigation” on the poison issue is more like asking
     a bunch of foxes to go in and count the number of chickens in a closed
     chicken filled compact hatch. And the “official” response will be: there is
     NONE! (All evidence hidden in the stomach).

     Its an open secret for their fat paypackets and money earning schemes the
     GBC have lied and evaded consistently to the society about implementing the
     July 9th 1977 final order(signed PERSONALLY by His Divine Grace Srila
     Prabhupada) to implement the Ritvik System. What more proof do you require
     about their “genuine” sincereity? They only launched “official
     Investigation” when the subject could not be be hidden anymore. So lets not
     be naive.

     You wrote: “Naturally, we can only rely on the actual words Srila
     Prabhupada spoke on
     this issue to determine whether he himself believed that he was
     deliberately poisoned”.
     UNLESS Srila Prabhupada actually believed this WHY does he CONFIRM: Hoy to
     tai (Its possible).

     Srila Prabhupada: Keu bole je keu poison kore diyeche. Hoy to tai.
     Translation: Someone says that I’ve been poisoned. It’s possible.

     We have to understand that there are two issues:
     1) Srila Prabhupada is a Vaisnava of the highest calibre and therefore NOT
     going to PROTEST at this barbaric brutal act committed PERSONALLY against him.

     2)As an acarya he IS STILL DUTY BOUND to give instructions to the society
     what exactly happened ie. on HOW he was poisoned WITHOUT himself protesting
     that he HAS been poisoned.

     Thus Srila Prabhupada FULFILLS the above two contradictory points by
     saying: Keu bole (Someone says). Srila Prabhupada is not going to utter
     even a slight protest at this most henious activity. This is the QUALITY of
     a VAISNAVA. If “someone says” something which Srila Prabhupada ALREADY KNEW
     was happening what is the difference when Srila Prabhupada simply
     REPEATS(“I’ve been poisoned”) this is an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT or CONFIRMATION
     even if the words are the SAME. This shows Srila Prabhupada as an EXPERT
     who did NOT transgress the Vaisnava etiquette. Neither did Srila Prabhupada
     fail to disclose that he has been poisoned SIMULTANEOUSLY.

     So he SIMULTANEOUSLY said the words “I’ve been poisoned” and did not say
     it. Srila Prabhupada next says: Hoy to tai(It’s possible). We have to
     UNDERSTAND that Srila Prabhupada is ADMITTING by ACKNOWLEDGING. Srila
     Prabhupada is SAYING Hoy to tai.(hote pe?) IT’S POSSIBLE!!!! What Srila Prabhupada Is
     TELLING US is in the language of inconceivable
     SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS and DIFFERENCE that he HAS been poisoned.

     Thus Srila Prabhupada is ACTUALLY SPEAKING THE WORDS:
     Srila Prabhupada: Keu bole je keu poison kore diyeche. Hoy to tai.
     Translation: Someone says that I’ve been poisoned. It’s possible.

     Based on 1) here are a few examples on how a Vaisnava does not PERSONALLY
     protest:
     SB 6.1.16 P
     When a devotee is put into hellish conditions, he accepts them as Krsna’s
     mercy: tat te ‘nukampam susamiksamanah (Bhag. 10.14.8). He does NOT PROTEST
     , “Oh, I am such a great devotee of Krsna. Why have I been put into this
     misery?” Instead he thinks, “This is Krsna’s mercy.”

     30718BG.LON Lectures
     This is the qualification of sadhu. Sadhu is TITIKSAVA, tolerates all kinds
     of miserable conditions. He is sadhu. Because this is a place of miserable
     condition. A sadhu learns how to tolerate. Sadhu is never disturbed. Yasmin
     sthito gurunapi duhkhena na vicalyate. A sadhu, who has got the shelter of
     Krsna, if he is placed in the severest type of dangerous condition, he is
     never disturbed. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, his father was putting him in
     so many dangerous conditions, even he was supplying with poison. He knew
     that “My father has given me poison to drink. All right, let me drink. If
     Krsna likes, He will save me. I am now put into such dangerous position. I
     have to drink. Father is giving poison. Who can check?” And such a big
     powerful Hiranyakasipu. The mother cried, requested… He forced the
     mother, Prahlada’s mother, “Give your son this poison.” So she begged so
     much, but he was a rascal demon. “NO, YOU MUST GIVE.” SO THE MOTHER KNEW,
     THE SON KNEW THAT THE RASCAL FATHER IS GIVING THIS POISON. WHAT CAN HE DO, A SMALL CHILD? “ALL RIGHT, LET ME DRINK.” GURUNAPI DUHKHENA NA VICALYATE.
     HE IS NOT AGITATING. “ALL RIGHT, IF KRSNA LIKES, I WILL LIVE.” THIS IS THE POSITION OF SADHU. HE IS NOT DISTURBED. TITIKSAVAH. IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, HE IS TOLERANT. That is sadhu. Sadhu does not become disturbed. Titiksavah. At the same time, karunikah. He is himself disturbed, but he is merciful to others.

     730718BG.LON Lectures
     Just like Jesus Christ. He is being CRUCIFIED, and still he is merciful:
     “God, these people do not know what they are doing. Please excuse them.”
     This is sadhu.

     760316SB.MAY Lectures
     If you want to chant Hare Krsna mantra, then you have to take this
     principle, trnad api sunicena. You have to become humbler than the grass.
     Grass, it is lying on the street. Everyone is trampling down. Never
     protests. In the lawn you are… Everyone is trampling the grass. There is
     no protest. Taror api sahisnuna. AND TOLERANT THAN THE TREE. THE TREE IS
     GIVING US SO MUCH HELP. IT IS GIVING US FRUIT, FLOWER, LEAVES, AND WHEN
     THERE IS SCORCHING HEAT, SHELTER ALSO. SIT DOWN UNDERNEATH. SO BENEFICIAL,
     STILL, WE CUT. AS SOON AS I LIKE, I CUT IT DOWN. BUT THERE IS NO PROTEST.
     The tree does not say, “I have given you so much help, and you are cutting
     me?” No. Tolerant. Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has selected, taror
     api sahisnuna. And amanina manadena. For oneself one should not expect any
     respectful position, but he, the devotee, should offer all respect to
     anyone. Amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih. If we acquire this
     qualification, then we can chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra without any
     disturbance. This is the qualification.

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     NOTE: here Srila Prabhupada is confirming having heard from “friends” “THEY
     all say” BUT with FURTHER pressure from Tamal Krishna he says “I do not
     know, but it is said”. We all know about the WHISPERS we heard: here is the
     CONFIRMATION Srila Prabhupada DID hear. Again note carefully Srila
     Prabhupada is NOT going to PROTEST at this ghastly systematic execution but
     still as DUTY of an ACARYA dictates he IS REVEALING it as: “they all ”
     “friends”. Perfection of Simultaneous oneness and difference role.

     Exchange 1 – Mixture of English, Hindi and Bengali (9/11/77)
     Srila Prabhupada: Keu bole je keu poison kore diyeche. Hoy to tai.
     Translation: Someone says that I’ve been poisoned. It’s possible.

     Balaram Mishra (?): Hmm?

     Kaviraja: Kya farma rahe hain?
     Translation: What is he saying?

     Srila Prabhupada: Koi bolta hai je koi mujhko poison kiya gaya hai.
     Translation: Someone says that someone has given poison.

     Kaviraja: Kisko?
     Translation: To whom?

     Srila Prabhupada: Mujhko.
     Translation: To me.

     Kaviraja: Kaun bolta hai?
     Translation: Who said?

     Srila Prabhupada: Ye sab friends.
     Translation: These all friends.

     Bhakticharu: Ke boleche, Srila Prabhupada?
     Translation: Who said, Srila Prabhupada?

     Srila Prabhupada: Ke boleche.
     Translation: They all say.

     Tamal Krishna: Krishna das?

     Kaviraja: Ao ko kaun poison dega? Kis liye dega?
     Translation: Who would give you poison? Why would anyone do that?

     Tamal Krishna: Who said that, Srila Prabhupada?

     Srila Prabhupada: I do not know, but it is said.

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Note: NOW Srila Prabhupada is disclosing the SYMPTOMS of POISONING. What
     happens when one is given poison. Again he is NOT protesting but still
     DISCLOSING the FACTS when a person is ACTUALLY given poison what happens.
     ALSO he CONFIRMS the ACCEPTED SYMPTOMS to be verified in a book. Exchange 2
     – Hindi Only (9/11/77)

     Kaviraja: Yah, maharaj ji, kotha ap kaise bola aj ki apko koi bola hai ki
     apko poison diya hai. Ap ko kuch abhas hua hai, kya?
     Translation: Maharaj, how did you say this, that someone has said that
     someone has poisoned you? Have you felt something?

     Srila Prabhupada: Nahin, aise koi bola je. debe-sa hi ja hota hai. Shayad
     koi kitab men likha hai.
     Translation: No, not said, but when one is given poison, it happens like
     this. It’s written in a book.
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Note: once again NO PROTEST. Srila Prabhupada IS giving strong hints on the
     symptoms in the book.

     Exchange 3 – English Only (9/11/77)
     Tamal Krishna: Srila Prabhupada? You said before that you. that it is said
     that you were poisoned?:

     Srila Prabhupada: No. These kind of symptoms are seen when a man is
     poisoned. He said like that, not that I am poisoned.

     Tamal Krishna: Did anyone tell you that, or you just know it from before?

     Srila Prabhupada: I read something.

     Conclusion

     SSR 7
     Krsna, God, is never tolerant of offenses committed at the lotus feet of a
     Vaisnava. Krpambudhi: a Vaisnava is an ocean of mercy. VANCHA-KALPA-TARU:
     EVERYONE HAS DESIRES, BUT A VAISNAVA CAN FULFILL ALL DESIRES. KALPA-TARU
     MEANS “DESIRE TREE.”

     We believe Srila Prabhupada was POSSIBLY poisoned. Srila Prabhupada KNEW it
     but did NOT protest on the contrary he FULFILLED their desires.Simultaneously Srila Prabhupada himself disclosed:Hoy to tai. He was POSSIBLY poisoned. The motive: discarding July9th 1977 instruction (to implement the ritvik system) and usurp Srila Prabhupada’s disciples and properties. Money, power, fame,self-aggrandizement of self made gurus (voted-in cheaters).

     Srila Prabhupada is ACTUALLY SPEAKING THE WORDS:
     Srila Prabhupada: Keu bole je keu poison kore diyeche. Hoy to tai.
     Translation: Someone says that I’ve been poisoned. IT’S POSSIBLE

     Yes —we agree HOY TO TAI.(hote pe?)

     Note: Vahi bat NOT ONLY means “That same discussion” but can ALSO mean: the
     SAME words or the SAME talk. Srila Prabhupada: Vahi bat… je koi hamko
     poison kiya. Translation: That same discussion . that someone has poisoned
     me.

     So instead of the above translation we have: Translation: That SAME
     words… THAT: “SOMEONE HAS POISONED ME”.

     Reply
127. Puranjana dasa says:

     12. January 2013 at 6:52 pm

     Dear Santosh, Amoghalila and his “Srila Prabhupada” dreams created quite a stir in ISKCON when he was writing them out at the time. His dreams seemed contrary. At times, his dreams of Srila Prabhupada were saying that the GBC gurus were creating major problems — and as such they were not fully qualified to be gurus. Therefore these gurus needed further “guidance” (from Srila Prabhupada via media Amoghalila). While at other times, these dreams were saying we need to work with these GBC gurus, which is why the GBC’s own gurus like Trivrikrama were reading these “Amogha’s dreams” in classes at ISKCON temples, to bolster support for their guru process.

     Amoghalila was actually saying that Srila Prabhupada was guiding and chastising these gurus through him — by use of these dreams. So at the time I was asking the obvious question, how could the GBC gurus actually be gurus when they need to be controlled, chastised, rectified and instructed by Amoghalila? That would make Amoghalila the over-lord / spiritual master of the acharyas, because he was saying he was their mentor and adviser. This is also what Rocana has been doing by the way, he was part of the “50 man committee to reform the gurus” and this begged the question, how did Rocana become the overlord adviser, spiritual master and director for the acharyas, so he would be in charge of “reforming and correcting” — the acharyas?

     Lord Krishna says: He dictates to the acharyas (chaitya guru), acharyam mam vijnaniyam, whereas Rocana says that is totally bogus, who needs Krishna anymore to do anything, because the new masters of the acharyas are me, ok Rocana and his 50 man committee, and they are going to kick out Krishna and they are going to dictate to the acharyas and get rid of Krishna and His bogus dictating.

     Of course anyone who thinks they are going to kick out Krishna and take over His position is someone George A. Smith idolizes. Yes, Rocana has replaced Krishna as the dictation to the acharyas and this is why George has been the vociferous advocate for this ship of fools headed by Rocana. So my question all along to them is, can any of you take over one banana spider and make it act like you want it to? OK, nope you cannot, did not think so, so how are you same class of idiots going to take over control of the Lord and His acharyas and be their advisers? And Amoghalila has had the same disease, he is going to fix and repair the acharyas with his dreams … dream on! Krishna HIMSELF dictates to the acharyas, not the crew of the ship of fools!

     Of course when you asked Rocana and his side kick George how they are going to take control of the acharyas with their 50 man committee, or with Amogha’s dreams, or whatever other acharya fix it program they have, you hear the sound of crickets, ok silence, they have no idea how they are going to do that, its all bluff. So Amogha was one of the co-founders of this bogus idea that people need to dictate to, and fix and repair, the acharyas. And of course Amagholia was hanging out with these GBC leaders and gurus at the time and for that matter, he still does.

     Amoghalila has in sum been the co-founder of this bogus idea that the guru needs to get corrected when they are deviating, and Amogha is such a fool, he thinks Krishna is dictating dreams to him so he can dictate to these deviating / often debauchees / posing as acharyas. So this is like the Church janitor claiming he was getting visions of how to correct Jesus from doing bad things, he is going to reform Jesus? And idiots like George are worshiping these “messiah fix it masters” aka cracker pot janitors like Rocana.

     Anyway, Amoghalila was taking sanskrit classes and he did at least back me up when I was arguing with Prahladhananda swami, which basically made the swami have a nervous breakdown here in Berkeley. He has done a few good things but overall he is considered as a nut job around here. After these dreams quit, he has sort of fallen off the map, no one ever talks about him anymore, ok he had his 15 minutes of fame with these dreams, but many others began to see the contradictions in his dreams and so they said, this is not what Srila Prabhupada would have said.

     I also had a dream of Srila Prabhupada just today. He was saying things in modern English, he said to us “Yes, I took all my disciples to India, and then people wondered why I did not want them to associate with my God brothers, yeah right”! And we were all laughing our heads off. I laughed so hard it woke me up. So this was also the Gaudiya Matha’s idea, they were going to “sit and wait” as their acharyas deviate, then later correct him, and reform him, and all that, same nonsense idea was there. ys pd

     Reply
128. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     12. January 2013 at 6:58 pm

     Thanks Bhakta George for posting Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja’s book which basically says, quote:

     “The Guru is not an erring mortal whose activities can be understood by the fallible reason of unreclaimed humanity. There is an eternally impassable line of demarcation between the Saviour and the saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this.Thakur Bhaktivinode belongs to the category of the spiritual world-teachers who eternally occupy the superior position.”

     What says exactly that, a spiritual master must be fully qualified (especially in the boiling pot of kali-yuga). Therefore Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja himself would not even appoint any of his Vaishnava born disciples as his successor. He considered them only qualified when emerging as successful world preachers what only Srila Prabhupada accomplished (starting in 1965).

     Bhakta George, your paranoia about the “territorial obsessed ritvik primates” who have no other intention than daily marking their territory, has no basis. Ritviks, GBC, TPs are elected by the Vaishnava community and immediately removed when need be. No nepotism.

     Bhakta Jarek’s proposal, “We do not speak about institutions”, nice try to get out of a tight spot. But Prabhupada says, phalena pariciyate: one is recognized by the result of his actions. When so many sannyasis were falling down, Prabhupada did not say, well, sastra says sannyasa is important, we go on. Prabhupada said: This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a gentleman. (January 7, 1977, Bombay)

     We cannot sweep 41 fallen ISKCON gurus under the carpet and claim, sastra says, neophyte gurus are still acceptable. Prabhupada established a fully functioning global Vaishnava society to remove bogus religion.

     When your neophyte gurus are so much suspectable of falling down, simply don’t call them saksadhari, directly Hari, but call them priest. What the heck, why is this breaking your back? Why this arrogant airs and graces to call those neophytes maha-bhagavat jagat-guru, Vaishnava diksha-guru acarya?

     Reply
129. bhakta jarek says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:13 pm

     Thank You for the nectar dear bhakta George Prabhu.
     Hare Krishna! Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
     y.s. bj

     Reply
130. SG says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:23 pm

     Bhakta Hugh, the problem with the July 9th letter is that it does not say that the ritvik initiation preformed on behalf of Srila Prabhupada must continue after his departure from this planet. There is nothing specifically written to that effect. His disciples who are in disagreement with the GBC and their nonsense are the ones who are interpreting the contents of the letter and the ritvik initiation process to mean that it should continue into the future. Srila Prabhupada is a person who is meticulous, a stickler for details. If Srila Prabhupada intended this ritvik to continue after his departure he would have specified it in the letter. As you can see he did not. That is the reason why these ritviks are quoting from all over the books and letters and tapes to support their claim instead of confining their argument to the letter itself otherwise they would be beating their chest and pointing to the letter specifically to that line where it would have stated ” to continue in the future after my departure and the initiated are my disciples.” People like us, we don’t take
     kindly to lies anymore. We have been through that in Iskcon once before. In the karmi world lying is as easy and as common as breathing air. In the spiritual world howeverit should be as non existent as air in space. If this so called devotees cannot practice truthfulness not only to people they interact, preach but also to themselves then what Krsna Consciousness are they practicing. Just a bunch of bogus cheating pretenders – the GBC with their committee elected gurus when such practice was not approved by their spiritual master and the ritviks group with their ritvik initiation as mankind’s future salvation from the cycle of birth and death and as ticket to go back home back to Godhead. Srila Prabhupada said the service of a guru is essential (don’t see these ritviks asking Srila Prabhupada to give the name of that living guru ) and if there is no chance of serving a guru directly one should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the guru and the guru’s instructions.

     Did he say,”before one serves a guru by remembering his instruction one should take ritvik initiation and become his disciple.” No.! Ritvik initiation aside, if one simply follows the instruction of, say Srila Prabhupadas’, chanting 16 rounds and more, doing deity worship ( cooking, cleaning, dressing ), reading his books, glorifying Sri Krsna by preaching His glories engaging mind and body in this way does one think Sri Krsna will reject that person when at the time of death he calls out to Him. What is your opinion Bhakta Hugh and the ritviks? The fact remains that Srila Prabhupada did not give any specific instruction any where in his books that the way forward for spiritual advancement in his society in future will be via ritvik initiation nor did he say that in his July 9th 1977 letter.

     As for the word “henceforward” it just means from now on. And the answer to that is given in the letter itself. If before the temple presidents were submitting the names to Srila Prabhupada for approval for initiation now they should submit to the appointed representatives for the necessary approval, a slight change from the previous procedure but still conducted on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf and the names are to be send to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada to be written in his disciples book. If you listen to the July 7th conversation, Tamal Krsna asks Srila Prabhupada if Tamal should continue to record the names in his books for him and Srila Prabhupad
     says,” yes “.

     ” Tamala Krsna : You know that book I’m maintaining of all of your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?

     Prabhupäda : Hmm.

     Tamala Krsna : So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesa Maharaja, he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter it in the book. Okay.

     But in the July 9th letter it is specified that the initiated names are to be send to the acharya himself. Now tell me Bhakta Hugh how is one suppose to do that since Srila Prabhupada has already left the planet. This ritvik initiation procedure that Srila Prabhupada initiated in his society during his presence was a solution to a logistics problem in conducting initiation worldwide (constraint in travel time, cost and in later part poor health) and during all this time not once did Srila Prabhupada mentioned that this ritvik initiation procedure will proceed to continue in future after his departure and it was also not mentioned in his July 9th 1977 letter which he could have easily done so, especially a subject matter as seriously important as this even though it was also said to have been discussed in the May 28th 1977 conversation.

     Now one reads that there are people who are able to communicate with Srila Prabhupada in their dreams and discuss about Iskcon’s problems. Soon someone else will comes and say he saw Srila Prabhupada doing his morning walk alone and he was invited to walk along with him and gullible people like Pratyatosa dasa will send him a mail inquiring about it and post it in the net. Already we have this fellow Charles Dowson (Hasti Gopala Dasa) saying this ” Thinking of Srila Prabhupada at the time of death is like thinking of Krsna at the time of death”. By this statement Srila Prabhupada has become God.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
131. mark says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:32 pm

     Rukmini devi asks Gorgeous George…

     “What the heck, why is this breaking your back? Why this arrogant airs and graces to call those neophytes maha-bhagavat jagat-guru, Vaishnava diksha-guru acarya?”

     At the beginning of Georgie’s latest primal tirade, he answers your question in the 3rd paragraph, saying

     “That there is a difference between the symbolic territory vs the spiritual reality, that one in the possession of the polished hogs and dogs is actually only metaphoric while the one in the possession of the great devotees and acrayas is non different from the apparent symbolic representation and the spiritual reality that it indicates.

     Here he not so subtly indicates that he is among the great devotees and “acrayas” (did he mean to write acrazy’s?).

     For he must be the one in possession of the non-different perception of symbolic territory and spiritual reality, other wise how could he be lecturing we of the ignorant class?

     So he is the neophyte pretending to ACARYA status of which you speak, thus the arrogant airs, etc.

     I know I know, you probably knew that already and your question was rhetorical, but I like to show how smart I am. At least I admit it. What fun.

     Reply
132. Puranjana dasa says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:38 pm

     GEORGE: Weak biological drives and territorial imperatives result in displays of typical primate pugnacity when their claims to possession of the House that Srila Prabhupada built for all the world to live in is challenged by anyone who sees through the twin lamps of reason and shastra such as Rocana dasa does, most usually that is.

     [PD: Rocana was one of the big leaders of the 1986 “50 man committee” of “guru reform,” …. who, apart from yourself, put Rocana in charge of reforming the acharyas? And since Krishna says it is He Himself who dictates to the acharyas, how can Rocana take over that post and be the dictating and reforming agent of the acharyas? Rocana’s twin lamps of guru and reform, are oxymoron, ok only morons think they are in charge of reforming the acharyas. I hate to be the one to have to break this to you, but your good friend Rocana, who claims to be the fix-it and repair man for Krishna and His acharyas, could not fix and repair an ill behaving flea. ys pd]

     Reply
133. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:45 pm

     Santosh says: If all this was true and Amoghalila Prabhu is sincere, then should we accept Tamal Krsna Maharaj as a mahabhagavat, since he is now with Prabhupada? And then, should we accept whatever he has done after Prabhupada’s disappearance as “done out of love for Prabhupada?” I am simply unable to accept this… because we know that Tamal Krsna Maharaj was in coma after the accident and Prabhupada has said that coma is not a very good sign of going back to Godhead. But we are informed that the 11 “appointed” gurus were simply Prabhupada’s offenders. So, I humbly beg for a reply from Pratyatosa prabhu about how I should go about with this question of mine…

     According to the then GBC man, Atreya Rsi Dasa, he was afraid for his life if he dared to oppose the takeover by the 11 “appointed gurus” in early 1978. So maybe TKG was also afraid for his life if he didn’t go along with them. Let’s not forget that TKG said at one point:

     ACTUALLY PRABHUPADA NEVER APPOINTED ANY GURUS. HE APPOINTED ELEVEN RITVIKS. HE NEVER APPOINTED THEM GURUS. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.

     (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=1j)

     Then, later on, he recanted. Why? Obviously, the answer is most likely, “out of fear for his life!”

     As far as his being with Srila Prabhupada goes, Prabhupada is very merciful. It’s not that those who had his personal association were necessarily very spiritually advanced. Please consider the following:

     One attitude that the “little” devotees had about the ISKCON “biggies” was expressed to me in 1971, by Dinesh Dasa. I told Dinesh that I wanted to travel with Srila Prabhupada, so that I could make good quality recordings of his lectures and conversations, make sure that the various P.A. systems that he would be using were working, and were correctly adjusted. Dinesh told me, “That’s for devotees who are not very advanced, who need a lot of personal association with Prabhupada!” I replied, “That’s me! I’m not very advanced! I want to travel with Prabhupada!”

     Many devotees had the attitude that these “biggies” who were always hanging around Srila Prabhupada were “egomaniacs,” “scene stealers,” “glory grabbers,” “control freaks,” and were “not very advanced.”

     (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=u&TP=4596)

     Reply
134. Brihadbhanu das says:

     12. January 2013 at 8:17 pm

     Thanks SG for posting your concerns. When Prabhupada instructed his disciples to function as ritviks on his behalf he knew that appointing those neophytes as full-fledged diksha-gurus would end in a disaster of meanwhile forty-one failures. A scenario which would turn his ISKCON movement which is supposed to save suffering humanity itself into an emergency patient. Meanwhile in NA and Western Europe things degraded like that that present ISKCON’s guru system cannot keep up with even the official church.

     Although there were disciples already more than ten years within the movement, Prabhupada said on May 27, 1977 in Vrindavan:

     Prabhupada: “That is the movement. You trace the history of everyone. All worst, third class. And they come here. And that is Krishna conscious movement. How many Doctor Svarupa has come? If we speak frankly, all from the worst class. Those who were finished.”

     Hmm – devotees are pushing vedabase search button and conclude, Prabhupada did not instruct perpetual ritvik? After so many fall-downs we should be comvinced that Prabhupada was right when stating above and thus devotees should be open to being convinced that there cannot be more suffering ISKCON gurus. For example, Hridayananda Swami recently complained about severe health problems.
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/news/11-12/news4578.htm

     First of all there should be now a bona fide GBC preparing to “conduct missionary activities cooperatively.” To first of all have all devotees to cooperate. Now isn’t this a great accomplishment?

     “Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively.” (CC Adi-lila 12.8)

     Reply
135. mark says:

     13. January 2013 at 12:06 am

     SG wrote: “Bhakta Hugh, the problem with the July 9th letter is that it does not say that the ritvik initiation preformed on behalf of Srila Prabhupada must continue after his departure from this planet. There is nothing specifically written to that effect. ”

     SG, you would lose in a debate to a high school student who had read introduction to Logic in his after school debate club.

     The system had been in place for years. By July of 1977 that system was completely worked out. The July 9th letter outlined and documented that system according to all the latest procedures which had evolved over those years. It also assigned the official title to the positions already held in the ritvik initiation framework.

     When such a policy directive is issued, without mentioning a time limit, and even utilizing the adverb henceforward, the burden of proof is on YOU to show any directive which sets a time limit.

     And to quote your words, “there is nothing written to that effect”. Provide it you cannot, thus you lose any debate before it even started.

     There was, and is, NOTHING in the ritvik initiation procedure as outlined in that policy directive which could not continue when Srila Prabhupada’s atma left the planet. That is a fact. After all, he and LORD KRSNA (WHO BY THE WAY DICTATED THAT SYSTEM) arranged the system to act perfectly without Srila Prabhupada’s bodily input.

     Gee ya think there might have been a reason?

     Simple for the simple.

     Of course those who wish to take advantage of Srila Prabhupada’s intellectual and physical properties for their own selfish purposes have a terrible time accepting the fact that there was no arrangement for them to step in and become the exclusive successor gurus/acaryas/spiritual masters of future candidates for discipleship.

     From your writings I count you as such a dreamer. Dream on pal.

     Reply
136. Puranjana dasa says:

     13. January 2013 at 3:56 am

     Right, we have not seen any practical alternate to the Prabhupadanuga idea?

     The GBC gurus have failed to make a bona fide preaching mission, we all agree to that.

     Rocana hangs out with the GBC guru’s camp, ok Gopal Krishna’s temple, lot of help that does us.

     Kailash lives on a mountain top in the middle of nowhere waiting for the rest of us to fall into the ocean, when California sinks to the bottom of the Pacific ocean. Could take a few million years for that to occur.

     George A. Smith is just like his twin brother Rocana, he also has no temples, no devotees, no preaching programs, no nothing useful that we ever hear about, not ever for 35 years. Another loser’s program. In fact he promotes Rocana, the promoter of the Jayadvaita program. Heaven help us!

     Jarek prabhu is now promoting the money and cow thief’s web site as his guru vani shiksha authority.

     Dusyanata has disappeared off the face of the earth after we asked him a few questions.

     And so on and so forth.

     So we are winning by default because we have so many nice programs going on all over the world, and we are expanding, They cannot expand because they are promoting a bogus idea, “surrender to our live guru, who does not exist,” they could not even sell that idea for five cents at the flea market. No one is buying it. ys pd

     Reply
137. bhakta jarek says:

     13. January 2013 at 1:14 pm

     Puranjana das your religion is lying.
     y.s. bj

     Reply
138. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. January 2013 at 1:22 pm

     ALL you NEED is Srila Prabhupada OUR MAHABHAGAVATA BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU:

     74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
     In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

     Los Angeles, California 90034730513mw.la Conversations
     Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
     Prabhupada: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
     Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in…
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
     Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     70-01-24. Letter: Ranadhira
     Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice–in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

     70-02-14. Letter: Sacisuta
     If you simply chant your rounds daily as prescribed and stick strictly to the rules and regulations, all these questions will automatically be answered by Krsna as Supersoul. You may refer in this connection to Bhagavad gita, (10:10), “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” and (10:11), “Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” This process of understanding by devotional service is essential for developing Krsna Consciousness and you all must follow this program assiduously.

     72-02-19. Letter: Upendra
     (8) In other words, if you are sincere to serve continuously and always chanting, all such questions become answered automatically. I never asked my Spiritual Master one question except one: “How shall I serve you?” So in this way, kindly inform the others that I may be relieved to give you so many more nice books–that is my real desire.

     72-03-07. Letter: Aniruddha
     Thank you very much for serving Krishna in this way, and if you go on sincerely serving like this, chanting, and following the regulative principles strictly, all your questions will be answered by Krishna automatically.

     SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
     The potency of transcendental sound is NEVER minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.

     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, THAT IS LIVING.

     72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
     Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.

     73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
     Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.

     We advise THE DEVOTEES to worship OUR DIKSA GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA: LUNATICS can worship their OWN kind.

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
139. Bhakta Hugh says:

     13. January 2013 at 1:52 pm

     SG; Would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to which part of ….

     “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

     is difficult to understand?

     “Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
     (28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)

     Reply
140. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     13. January 2013 at 1:58 pm

     Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, your reply to SG is a perfect example of the “clear mind of a devotee.” I am impressed. So impressed, in fact, that I took the liberty of copy/pasting it to the http://rtvik.com/ website:

     http://rtvik.com/?TP=4986

     I hope you don’t mind.

     Reply
141. SG says:

     13. January 2013 at 1:58 pm

     Alright Bhakta Mark. Loose the frivolous talk and stick to the point. This is not about winning or losing a debate. This is about getting to know and understand the truth. Did Srila Prabhupada say in the July 9th letter that this ritvik initiation must continue after his departure from this planet. If the answer is yes then point it out in the letter ( this ritvik initiation will proceed to continue in the future after my departure and the initiated will be my disciples) where this statement is written because this is what the ritviks propagandist are saying. Did Srila Prabhupada say this. Like you said this is a directive policy, the written words should be clear and specift in its directive. It should not be subject to interpretation or speculation. Srila Prabhupada is not the kind of person to give instruction in a unclear manner. If the intent is to continue in future then it would have been stated. Srila Prabhupada also said that whatever answers we need to know are given in his books. Can you point it out to me in any of his written books if such a statement as initiation by ritvik will be conducted in his society in future after his departure from this world was ever mentioned.

     1. Bhakta Mark –

     “The system had been in place for years. By July of 1977 that system was completely worked out. The July 9th letter outlined and documented that system according to all the latest procedures which had evolved over those years. It also assigned the official title to the positions already held in the ritvik initiation framework.”

     SG – Okay, now you tell me, since you said above that the system was completely worked out why does the letter state that the initiated names must be sent to Srila Prabhupada for His Divine Grace to receive and record in his “Initiated Disciple” book. And now how is one do this since he has already departed and is no longer physically present with us.

     2. Bhakta Mark –

     “When such a policy directive is issued, without mentioning a time limit, and even utilizing the adverb henceforward, the burden of proof is on YOU to show any directive which sets a time limit.”

     SG – Whether verb or adverb whatever, henceforward was used in the letter because of a change in the procedure, if before the names of the devotees was sent to Srila Prabhupada for approval, now it should be sent to his appointed representatives for initiation approval hence the word henceforward meaning from now on. As for the burden of proof for the time limit thing the last 3 lines in the July 9th letter, policy directive to you, ends with ” The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.” So, according to the letter the physical presence of Srila Prabhupada is necessary for the directive to function. And since Srila Prabhupada is no longer physical present to receive the initiated names the directive then ceases to function. That is your time limit to that July 9th letter or directive which ever word that pleases you.
     In your own words “by July 1977 the system was completely worked out”

     3. Bhakta Mark –

     “After all, he and LORD KRSNA (WHO BY THE WAY DICTATED THAT SYSTEM) arranged the system to act perfectly without Srila Prabhupada’s bodily input.

     SG – Yeah right, if you say so, Bhakta Mark, if you say so. How did you come to know of this? Last i heard He said to go and find a spiritual master and serve him.

     4. Bhakta Mark –

     “Of course those who wish to take advantage of Srila Prabhupada’s intellectual and physical properties for their own selfish purposes have a terrible time accepting the fact that there was no arrangement for them to step in and become the exclusive successor gurus/acaryas/spiritual masters of future candidates for discipleship.

     From your writings I count you as such a dreamer. Dream on pal.”

     SG – Where is this thinking coming from. Is this the mood of advancement in Krsna Consciousness via ritvik initiation???

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
142. george a. smith says:

     13. January 2013 at 2:07 pm

     Rukmin dd’s myopic focus is deliberately intended to stee us away from Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Ptabhupada and even Lord Jesus Christs corroborataion of the point that I was making, which wasn’t limited to just the Rtvikls but to most other ideologies and damned churches of the world and to all domesticated primates or devotees situated in animal consciousness.
     Rukmini dd and others of course do not want to listen to my words but neither do they wish to listen to the words of the acaryas either except when tsuch words can be taken by them and manipulated in such a way as to make what would otherwise be out of their reach accessible to them, just as an chimpanzee would use a stick to knock down a plumb that was on a smaller branch out of its reach.
     Rukmini dd also tries to make it look like she is a trained professionmal capable of determining psychological maladies and to inform her fellows as to just what the nature of those maladies are. Not actually being as intelligent as she wants it to appear that she is she forgets that Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakktisidhana and Lord Jesus Christ were all standing behind the point that I was making. So although Rukmini dd is only saying that I personally suffer from a mental disease indirectly she is accusing all of the acaryas of being mentally ill as well, which sort of even goes against the argument that she was herself in a very feeble minded way trying to present, or its conclusion rather, which was that the acaryas are beyond our understanding, Obviously Rukmini dd doesn’t really subscribe to her own theory since she thinks that she is qualified to pronounce through logical inference Srila Prabhupaa, Srila Bhaktissidhanat and Lord Jesus Christ to all be suffering from the same mental disease as she accuses me of suffering from, paranoia.

     Rukminin dd makes the point at the exclusion of all else that the acaryas are beyond our ability to do exactly what she attempts to do with them, place them to the side in some clinical waiting room within her own diseased mind until she can get busy on them with her scaples and knives. She says they are unscrutable and beyond our understanding, a point to which we concede, but such a point does not extend towards what they are teaching which they very much want us to understand and which I have been told both by Rocana dasa AND by Yasodanandana das and some folks that are very high up on some other food chains that I am very good at doing. Thanks, but I really have no ego in this, ultimately I amsimply motivated by a compassion that I am myself incapable of but can only marvelk at, a desire to serve someone who is better and greater even than an Irishman, and that of course can only be Krsna , God Himself and Krsnas pure devotees. Upon my own part I loose patience quickly with dumb asses and insincerity.

     Take for instance this Rukmini yahoo, while on the one hand it wants to distract you from the important info that I was presenting and which the acaryas were corroborating, to sooth you and put you back to sleep by just telling you never mind that he acaryas are inscrutible and that therefore neither they (nor anything that they approve or confirm that she doesn’t want to concede the validity of or have you look at…implying that she is a licensed psychologist and that as long as you listen to her you will be protected from such zany’s as myself and by logical inference Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and LordJesus Christ, etc., etc.,etc., going all the way back and up, up, up and away to the very top of the food chain, Lord Sri Krsna Himself, the origen and original instructor of all this science of Jiva Tattva that Rukmini dd is brushing aside. because she doesn’t want to think of herself as what she actuall is, a chimp in a sari….

     On the other hand such things as the fact that a lot of you Rtviks don’t even know the difference between right and wrong or if you do you simply don’t care about it while all at the same time you think that we should listen to you tell us what Shrila Prabhupada intended and meant for us to do????

     Are there actually any intelligent and honest Rtviks who are bothered by the kind of crap that Puranjana and these other nay bobs are getting away with? Anyone with even any respect for honesty and truthfullness and who is a reasoning being? If so where are you hiding?

     Reply
143. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     13. January 2013 at 2:53 pm

     Bhakta Jarek: Puranjana das – your religion is lying.

     So what do we learn from this? As soon you give Rocana’s club of the living body doctrine a forum for philosophically discussing genuine initiation into the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, at one point they come up with impertinent behavior. As soon they feel cornered, sweeping blow.

     Of course Rocana immediately kicks out any Prabhupadanuga devotee submitting an article at his Sampradaya Sun, to give anybody Prabhupadanuga a short shrift, kick in the butt. Rocana doesn’t vacillate, might call police when a Prabhupadanuga knocks at his door…

     I heard this website is getting daily tons of insult, directly offending Prabhupada as cause of child abuse, female discrimination, incompetent leadership.

     Thanks to present corrupt GBC the inhibition threshold for attacking Prabhupada is lowered now. Then there are those who underwent a full reorientation and left Vaishnavism for good.

     Of course these folks can’t refrain to look for a chance to put the insulting boot in. In short, to satisfy one’s desire for revenge. Two legged primates marking their territorial district to use Bhakta George’s vocabulary.

     In any case, let’s be realistic, there are many devotees who made some beginner trial lesson into Gaudiya-Vaishnavism without actually reaching brahma-bhuta, having bhakti established as an irrevocable fact. Using now the internet to spread their confusion.

     Then there is the dynamics of internet, more or less it’s anonymous – people are in cyberspace and not affected by their statements in real life.

     Hopefully the moderators of this forum draw consequence and not let things get out of hand ys rrdd

     Reply
144. bhakta jarek says:

     13. January 2013 at 3:01 pm

     Yes bhakta Hugh we may quote and anti-quote, but thinking is not forbiden, or? You/we are watching the manifested world under illusion of being material bodies, thus we work under minds demands, and the urges of anger are here strongly involved, so thus being disturbed we/you are prone to lose your/our intelligence because of anger which follows as seen and shown here many times. Simply speaking you/we are blind to obvious and basic existential facts. Let us try maybe from the square one, a bit honesty maybe, It may start with; “I am not the body, neither the mind, or even intelligence, what to speak of the ahankara” .This is the first step, and I think we should allways remember it and constantly chant Hare Krishna!. Than after years of following more and more rules one comes to the level of aham brahmasmi, where basically all problems are gone. The speculation of mind stops, lamenting stops, hate stops and fear stops. Try us come to this level and not destroy everything by next bhogus system of forcing people to premature steps and decisions mostly descriebed here inthe mood of anger and hate.
     y.s. bj

     Reply
145. Puranjana dasa says:

     13. January 2013 at 3:37 pm

     Dear SG, Srila Prabhupada told us hundreds of times, after he leaves there will only be a Governing Body / GBC. And he said when these GBC managers deviate (meaning some of them will deviate) they have to be replaced.

     So, the only system he established was: temporary and replaceable managers. And he said that system would continue after he departed. And this is all simply verified in the July 9th letter, the will, the 1977 conversations and so on and so forth. A person who can deviate and be replaced is — not a guru.

     Next, he also said this hundreds of times as well, make sure that you do not try to artificially upgrade these managers into gurus, like the Gaudiya Matha did. So he said that these GBC managers should not be gurus, this is the Gaudiya Matha deviation, and that was also clearly ordered.

     Next, he said he would live forever from his books and his books would continue to give the divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha. So he provided a source of diksha to continue after he departed. If there was another system that he ordered and wanted, where is it detailed and ordered?

     And now we see that the people who are promoting Srila Prabhupada’s vani / books (the ritviks) are making devotees all over the place, including right here in Sunnyvale. Whereas the people who doubt the orders, ok like Rocana, Kailash, George, and so forth, they have no program, they are making no devotees, and why should they since they are promoting the worship of nothing as their current living guru, and they have not even made even one temple for the past 35 years.

     So the people who defy the process of promoting the acharya, have nothing to show for their efforts. That means, judge by the result, we are making devotees of Krishna, and our programs are expanding, they are not making anything anywhere. How will Krishna be pleased when the main people making devotees for Him, the ritviks, are being harassed by their group all day long? ys pd

     Reply
146. mark says:

     13. January 2013 at 5:53 pm

     Pratyatosa das, you are welcome to it, glad it was useful.

     SG wrote: Alright Bhakta Mark. Loose the frivolous talk and stick to the point. This is not about winning or losing a debate. This is about getting to know and understand the truth.

     Mark: With all due respect, when one person says they KNOW the truth to be one thing, and another says another thing, and they present their evidence in an attempt to persuade one another and an audience, that is the very definition of a debate.

     SG: Did Srila Prabhupada say in the July 9th letter that this ritvik initiation must continue after his departure from this planet. If the answer is yes then point it out in the letter ( this ritvik initiation will proceed to continue in the future after my departure and the initiated will be my disciples) where this statement is written because this is what the ritviks propagandist are saying. Did Srila Prabhupada say this. Like you said this is a directive policy, the written words should be clear and specift in its directive. It should not be subject to interpretation or speculation. Srila Prabhupada is not the kind of person to give instruction in a unclear manner. If the intent is to continue in future then it would have been stated. Srila Prabhupada also said that whatever answers we need to know are given in his books. Can you point it out to me in any of his written books if such a statement as initiation by ritvik will be conducted in his society in future after his departure from this world was ever mentioned.

     Mark: You already asked that question and I already addressed it so clearly and logically that Pratyatosa das decided to add it to his official Ritvik defense page. Like I said, until you can grasp the fact that we are debating, and the parameters of debate, including using logic and reason, you will consider to misidentify my statements as “frivolous” due to your lack of education in the matter. That is it. You are unable to grasp the logic of my last answer, so I will not change my answer just because you don’t get it. Truth is the truth.

     SG quoted me, writing: 1. Bhakta Mark – “The system had been in place for years. By July of 1977 that system was completely worked out. The July 9th letter outlined and documented that system according to all the latest procedures which had evolved over those years. It also assigned the official title to the positions already held in the ritvik initiation framework.”

     SG — Okay, now you tell me, since you said above that the system was completely worked out why does the letter state that the initiated names must be sent to Srila Prabhupada for His Divine Grace to receive and record in his “Initiated Disciple” book. And now how is one do this since he has already departed and is no longer physically present with us.

     Mark’s reply: You misquoted the directive. It actually reads as follows. “The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”

     Please don’t be obtuse here. The representative (ritvik) was sending the list of names to Srila Prabhupada for years. And who received that list of names? SP’s secretary. And who entered them into a book. The secretary. SP was “hands off”. So anyone who can’t figure out how the GBC could pass a simple resolution to assign this duty of keepsaking SP’s initiated disciple book and recording names sent by ritviks, to the current GBC secretary, is not management material and should be out selling incense or be behind a plow in the fields.

     SG quoted me writing: 2. Bhakta Mark – “When such a policy directive is issued, without mentioning a time limit, and even utilizing the adverb henceforward, the burden of proof is on YOU to show any directive which sets a time limit.”

     SG — Whether verb or adverb whatever, henceforward was used in the letter because of a change in the procedure, if before the names of the devotees was sent to Srila Prabhupada for approval, now it should be sent to his appointed representatives for initiation approval hence the word henceforward meaning from now on.

     Mark’s reply: You are wrong here. And why are you debating if you don’t know simple grammar is beyond me, you are only looking foolish. While true the adverb henceforward was used because of a change in the procedure, the change was not exactly as you describe. Before this directive. The TP’s were sometimes sending names of prospective candidates to Zonal secretaries, not just to Srila Prabhupada’s secretary. These zonals were renamed as ritviks, and one or two added to the list.

     SG continued: “As for the burden of proof for the time limit thing the last 3 lines in the July 9th letter, policy directive to you, ends with ” The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.” So, according to the letter the physical presence of Srila Prabhupada is necessary for the directive to function. And since Srila Prabhupada is no longer physical present to receive the initiated names the directive then ceases to function. That is your time limit to that July 9th letter or directive which ever word that pleases you. In your own words “by July 1977 the system was completely worked out”

     Mark replies: “Again, you are concocting the idea that Srila Prabhupada needed to be physically present for this to function. You say, “according to the letter his physical presence is necessary, but the letter DOES NOT SAY THIS, it is your interpretation, which is wrong as I explained previously, his physical presence was NEVER necessary for this. The only items needed to be physically present were a secretary and a book. Both of which were still accessible after Srila Prabhupada departed the scene.

     SG quote me writing: 3. Bhakta Mark – “After all, he and LORD KRSNA (WHO BY THE WAY DICTATED THAT SYSTEM) arranged the system to act perfectly without Srila Prabhupada’s bodily input.

     SG — Yeah right, if you say so, Bhakta Mark, if you say so. How did you come to know of this? Last i heard He said to go and find a spiritual master and serve him.

     Mark’s reply: I don’t say so. Srila Prabhupada says that an acarya receives dictation from Krsna. The quote is in the Vedabase. And to hell with you and your idea that Srila Prabhupada cannot be found and served.

     SG quoted me writing : 4. Bhakta Mark – “Of course those who wish to take advantage of Srila Prabhupada’s intellectual and physical properties for their own selfish purposes have a terrible time accepting the fact that there was no arrangement for them to step in and become the exclusive successor gurus/acaryas/spiritual masters of future candidates for discipleship.

     From your writings I count you as such a dreamer. Dream on pal.”

     SG — Where is this thinking coming from. Is this the mood of advancement in Krsna Consciousness via ritvik initiation???

     Mark replies: It is not thinking. I am just reading what you write and seeing you for who you are at this stage in YOUR advancement. I say this because you have been shown the truth, with logic and reason and evidence from the mouth of Srila Prabhupada, and you continue to reject it.

     Which means you are either enamored by and defending some pretender who has stepped in front of Srila Prabhupada and claims spiritual mastery, or your false ego is on that hellish level and you can’t accept the fact that Srila Prabhupada has barred the way from anyone accepting the helm of Acarya in his institution to the degree that they may change any of his instructions or procedures in Iskcon.

     I have seen others get it in one telling. They light up with happiness that they have been corrected from their illusion regarding the spiritual meaning of “living guru” and limited relevance of “physical presence”, and grateful that they were steered from the road of false guru-ship themselves.

     I am still waiting for you to snap out of it. But by your own words you enter debate defending a dangerous false spiritual premise, without realizing it is a debate, without understanding logic, or even simple grammar. So I can only be left to deduce that you are an emotionally driven fanatic who needs to be stopped in his tracks.

     Sorry. There is still time to educate yourself. Read what I have written, and if any word is unclear look it up in a dictionary. Read a book on “logic reason and persuasion”. If you really care.

     Hare Krsna

     ys

     Mark

     Reply
147. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     13. January 2013 at 6:02 pm

     Wow, Rocana’s intelligence at record low: Shameless Ritvikites caused 41 ISKCON gurus to lose their lives in the hail of kali-yuga bullets….Did he sent H.H. BHAKTI VIKASA SWAMI a cheque to write all this?
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-13/editorials9605.htm

     Reply
148. Puranjana dasa says:

     13. January 2013 at 7:36 pm

     Apparently, Bhakti Vikas swami is trying to incite more violence against us? ys pd

     http://krishna1008.blogspot.com/2013/01/is-bhakti-vikas-mj-inciting-more.html

     Reply
149. mark says:

     13. January 2013 at 8:31 pm

     I listened to 15 minutes of a lecture B.Vikas gave regarding Iskcon standards and Varnasrama.

     I pity the fool. He will be humiliated by whatever government he cow tows to. Trust me.

     I also saw a video of his meeting with Its a CON Varnasrama shill Bhakti Raghava Swami. I have no animosity against them because I feel so bad for them, they are so lost and brainwashed and sickly looking. I can only hope they stop misleading devotees before they REALLY get punished.

     Reply
150. george a. smith says:

     13. January 2013 at 9:33 pm

     Puranjana dasa says:

     12. January 2013 at 7:38 pm

     GEORGE: Weak biological drives and territorial imperatives result in displays of typical primate pugnacity when their claims to possession of the House that Srila Prabhupada built for all the world to live in is challenged by anyone who sees through the twin lamps of reason and shastra such as Rocana dasa does, most usually that is.

     [PD: Rocana was one of the big leaders of the 1986 “50 man committee” of “guru reform,” …. who, apart from yourself, put Rocana in charge of reforming the acharyas? And since Krishna says it is He Himself who dictates to the acharyas, how can Rocana take over that post and be the dictating and reforming agent of the acharyas? Rocana’s twin lamps of guru and reform, are oxymoron, ok only morons think they are in charge of reforming the acharyas. I hate to be the one to have to break this to you, but your good friend Rocana, who claims to be the fix-it and repair man for Krishna and His acharyas, could not fix and repair an ill behaving flea. ys pd]

     I said “usually” pada, “most” was probably to generous. As long as you agree with Rocana he is fine, but just present him with a bit of guru tattva that he doesn’t want to hear and he becomes surly and non-communicative, probably something associated to women and the GBC always bossing bosing him around in his wonder years, unresolved issues and all that you know. Still you havn’t helped him by hanging on to Hansaduta and not bothering to cut out all that b.s. crap that you do.

     The only living guru that Rocana has up his sleeve is Rocana, he is just way to timid to come out and make the claim for himself, he’d rather just have others lead him up and then present him.

     If you study my laster article uppon the Sun which irronically contains some dishonoable mention of you MORE IRRESPONSIBLE MAD MEN – By George A. Smith you will observe some example of the former claims truth, of Rocana being led up to towards the precipace of his presentation. a bit to anticlimactic for me for even though in accordance with the findings of the shastra and Srila Parabhupadas words the article sets things up nicely for Rocana, it doesn’t allow him to really reach out and snap up for himself the biggest cheese.
     My objection to your philosophical presentation Pada, or the main one is that you are not admitting that at least someone, somewhere may be a living pure devotee and therfore competent to initiate upon their own behalf, that this is even possible theoretically, and that it could be in fact very possible in the light of Srila Prabhupadas prediction that there are pure devotees among your childrens children now.

     C’mon, just think of it, pure devotees giving Rtvik initiations, I mean just because you don’t have the theology for it now doesn’t mean that it’s not already out there waiting in the wings.

     Stop telling lies about others PADA, it’s not good for you.
     Ys, George Smith

     Reply
151. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. January 2013 at 10:19 pm

     We have given the likes of George a. Smith, SG, Bhakta Jarek a fair chance and good opportuntiy to discuss the Ritvik/Guru Issue which they say they do not accept.
     What we find is they are averse to OUR BONAFIDE GURU Srila Prabhupada. They seek to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada. We find that they will NOT listen to the DIRECT statements from Srila Prabhupada’s books NEITHER will they accept reasonable arguments. We can NOT waste our valuable time with them.
     Moderator should note carefully the points Srila Prabhupada states about AVOIDING those that are in mode of Ignorance and those that are NOT fixed standard in the understanding:

     “The devotee should avoid a person whose character is not fixed in the standard understanding; even though he may be a Vaisnava, or a devotee of Krsna, if his character is not correctly representative, then he should be avoided”

     One may offer his respects to such a Vaisnava because he has accepted the Supreme Lord as the ultimate goal of life, but one should not keep company with a Vaisnava who is in the mode of ignorance.

     SB 3.29.8 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     One who approaches the Supreme Lord to render devotional service, but who is proud of his personality, envious of others or vengeful, is in the mode of anger. He thinks that he is the best devotee. Devotional service executed in this way is not pure; it is mixed and is of the lowest grade, tamasah. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura advises that a Vaisnava who is not of good character should be avoided. A Vaisnava is one who has taken the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the ultimate goal of life, but if one is not pure and still has motives, then he is not a Vaisnava of the first order of good character. One may offer his respects to such a Vaisnava because he has accepted the Supreme Lord as the ultimate goal of life, but one should not keep company with a Vaisnava who is in the mode of ignorance.

     SB
     3.29.16 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     We should befriend and offer special respect to persons who are developed in Krsna consciousness. Other living entities are undoubtedly part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but because their consciousness is still covered and not developed in Krsna consciousness, we should renounce their association. It is said by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura that even if one is a Vaisnava, if he is not of good character his company should be avoided, although he may be offered the respect of a Vaisnava. Anyone who accepts Visnu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is accepted as a Vaisnava, but a Vaisnava is expected to develop all the good qualities of the demigods.

     SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves. There are innumerable books, such as the Puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and Upanisads, which contain countless subjects for discussion among two devotees or more. Friendship should be cemented between persons with mutual interests and understanding. Such persons are said to be sva jati, “of the same caste.” The devotee should avoid a person whose character is not fixed in the standard understanding; even though he may be a Vaisnava, or a devotee of Krsna, if his character is not correctly representative, then he should be avoided. One should steadily control the senses and the mind and strictly follow the rules and regulations, and he should make friendship with persons of the same standard.

     NoD 7 Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
     Lord Caitanya was once asked by one of His householder devotees what the general behavior of a Vaisnava should be. In this connection, Lord Caitanya replied that a Vaisnava should always give up the company of nondevotees. Then He explained that there are two kinds of nondevotees: one class is against the supremacy of Krsna, and another class is too materialistic. In other words, those who are after material enjoyment and those who are against the supremacy of the Lord are called avaisnava, and their company should be strictly avoided.

     SB 3.29.8 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     One who approaches the Supreme Lord to render devotional service, but who is proud of his personality, envious of others or vengeful, is in the mode of anger. He thinks that he is the best devotee. Devotional service executed in this way is not pure; it is mixed and is of the lowest grade, tamasah. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura advises that a Vaisnava who is not of good character should be avoided. A Vaisnava is one who has taken the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the ultimate goal of life, but if one is not pure and still has motives, then he is not a Vaisnava of the first order of good character. One may offer his respects to such a Vaisnava because he has accepted the Supreme Lord as the ultimate goal of life, but one should not keep company with a Vaisnava who is in the mode of ignorance.

     Adi 1.59 The Spiritual Masters
     It is indicated that to learn the transcendental science, it is imperative that one avoid the company of undesirable persons and always seek the company of saints and sages who are able to impart lessons of transcendental knowledge. The potent words of such realized souls penetrate the heart, thereby eradicating all misgivings accumulated through years of undesirable association. For a neophyte devotee there are two kinds of persons whose association is undesirable: (1) gross materialists who constantly engage in sense gratification and (2) unbelievers who do not serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead but serve their senses and their mental whims in terms of their speculative habits. Intelligent persons seeking transcendental realization should very scrupulously avoid their company.

     SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
     In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves. There are innumerable books, such as the Puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and Upanisads, which contain countless subjects for discussion among two devotees or more. Friendship should be cemented between persons with mutual interests and understanding. Such persons are said to be sva jati, “of the same caste.” The devotee should avoid a person whose character is not fixed in the standard understanding; even though he may be a Vaisnava, or a devotee of Krsna, if his character is not correctly representative, then he should be avoided. One should steadily control the senses and the mind and strictly follow the rules and regulations, and he should make friendship with persons of the same standard.

     Since these folks are AGAINST Srila Prabhupada as the CURRENT Diksa Guru and OPPOSE the RITVIK Order July 9th 1977 from Srila Prabhupada the REPRESENTATIVE OF KRSNA we DO NOT want these Rascals.

     Reply
152. Puranjana dasa says:

     14. January 2013 at 4:30 am

     George A. Smith: The only living guru that Rocana has up his sleeve is Rocana, he is just way to timid to come out and make the claim for himself, he’d rather just have others lead him up and then present him.

     [PD: Right, Rocana is just like the GBC’s gurus, he promotes himself as his own living guru, that is what we said about him all along. He is into self-promotion. And you are confirming what we quoted from Srila Prabhupada earlier, … if you do not name your guru, then you are making yourself into the guru. Yep he is waiting to get coronated as the next messiah of the jagat by the GBC, and he is mad we are blocking the way by exposing their whole system as corrupt and bogus.

     Yet now Rocana is also promoting the GBC gurus direct, like Bhakti Vikas swami, so he has been secretly with them all along, and he has been just sniffing around their camp hoping they will, as you said very nicely here, (the GBC will) “lead up and present him” as their next messiah of the jagat.

     This is what we thought all along, he is thinking he is the next living guru. And now he is showing that more and more because, when we look behind the curtain in the land of OZ, its twin professors Rocana and Bhakti Vikas behind the curtain making a whole lot of smoke, but they have no actual Wizard powers. Its all a giant bluff.

     Yes, Jedi-master wanna-be Rocana is secretly sitting around with another failed Jedi master wanna-be, namely Bhakti Vikas swami, who’d have thunk it? All glories to the Jedi-master wanna-be club members, lets send them a Jedi masters certificate, which of course comes at the bottom of your Cheerios cereal box. George, you are a hoot. ys pd

     Reply
153. george a. smith says:

     14. January 2013 at 7:25 am

     Mahesh

     Those are some very nice quotes from Srila Prabhupadaa that you posted, and I thank you for them, whatever gave you the idea that I was a devotee at all however beats the heck out of me, but I thank you for such a kind consideration. I cannot help however but to notice your manipulation of symbols according to game rules in the hopes of getting me banned. Thank you for so nicely illustrating my points for me. Have a bananna.
     Hari bol
     Ys, George A. Smith

     Reply
154. bhakta jarek says:

     14. January 2013 at 8:24 am

     Funny, you pada myopic’s (nice word in deed, thank You Rukmini R.dd.it appeard here because of you being myopic) talk to me and try to scare me 100% THE VERY SAME EXACT WAY THE fIsKconities do! You are twins guys, your father is B..R. Sridhar Swami and you do well as brothers in the material world of strugle.
     Thank’s to the brahminical moderators of that page who are not under your shizoprenic rants of hate and lowest kind condemnations. Especially thanks to generous bhakta George prabhu for his calm and wise expalnations based on śastra, honestly nad seriously practiced acara spiritual live of a Krishna bhakta in the line of the present Acarya H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.
     y.s.bj

     Reply
155. Mahesh Raja says:

     14. January 2013 at 12:00 pm

     Hey George, give your banana to your twin brother Rocana because he has the same philosophy as YOU for REPLACING Srila Prabhupada with invisible spaceman as Diksa guru.

     Here is some prasadam for you hope it will clear your stool filled brain to accept Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru for as long as his books exist on this planet. Do share it with Bhakta Jarek, SG and Duyasanta your cousins – thanks!

     P R A S A D A M (PDF, 210KB)

     Reply
156. Puranjana dasa says:

     14. January 2013 at 3:04 pm

     Jarek: Funny, you pada myopic’s (nice word in deed, thank You Rukmini R.dd.it appeared here because of you being myopic) talk to me and try to scare me 100%. THE VERY SAME EXACT WAY THE fIsKconities do!

     [PD: The living guru idea comes from the Fiskonites? OK, but you are quoting their idea?]

     You are twins guys, your father is B..R. Sridhar Swami and you do well as brothers in the material world of struggle.

     [PD: Sridhara is the founder father of the living guru idea, you are his top disciple.]

     Thank’s to the brahminical moderators of that page who are not under your shizoprenic rants of hate and lowest kind condemnations.

     [PD: You are the double agent ranter here, you said you are against Sridhara, and all you do is quote Sridhara, who said, you need a living guru?]

     Especially thanks to generous bhakta George prabhu for his calm and wise expalnations based on sastra, honestly and seriously practiced acarya spiritual live of a Krishna bhakta in the line of the present Acarya H.D.G. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

     y.s.bj

     [PD: George is another disciple of Sridhara who says there is a living guru, and he has identified Rocana as the next and upcoming living messiah for the planet. Sorry, Rocana is not going to be accepted as the next living guru by anyone, not even by his own pet cat named “General Zod.” ys pd]

     Reply
157. SG says:

     14. January 2013 at 3:09 pm

     Mahesh Raja says:
     13. January 2013 at 10:19 pm
     “We have given the likes of George a. Smith, SG, Bhakta Jarek a fair chance and good opportuntiy to discuss the Ritvik/Guru Issue which they say they do not accept.
     What we find is they are averse to OUR BONAFIDE GURU Srila Prabhupada. They seek to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada. We find that they will NOT listen to the DIRECT statements from Srila Prabhupada’s books NEITHER will they accept reasonable arguments. We can NOT waste our valuable time with them.”

     We too do not want waste your valuable time with us. You have not been much of a help in convincing us about this ritvik initiation. You are free to leave this discussion.

     Reply
158. Mahesh Raja says:

     14. January 2013 at 3:51 pm

     SG wrote:
     We too do not want waste your valuable time with us. You have not been much of a help in convincing us about this ritvik initiation. You are free to leave this discussion.

     Mahesh:
     RTW 4.1 The Fundamental Question Evades the Erudite Scholar. books
     A well-known Bengali saying goes, “After reading the whole Ramayana, you want to know whose father Sita is?” This question is ludicrous, since Sita is Lord Rama’s wife, and thus such a query will naturally invite quips and laughter.

     We find the same absurdity in SG when Bhakta Hugh stated and SG failed to reply:

     Bhakta Hugh says:
     13. January 2013 at 1:52 pm
     SG; Would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to which part of ….

     “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

     is difficult to understand?

     “Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
     (28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)

     Reply
159. Mahesh Raja says:

     15. January 2013 at 12:43 am

     Hare Krsna
     Another point is since SG,George, Bhakta Jarek, Rocana etc were THAT serious about their LIVING INVISIBLE something somewhere Messiah cometh to deliver then you boys just go and get YOURSELF INITIATED by the THING. After all you folks want something LIVING so go find that INVISIBLE something LIVING and get YOURSELF INITIATED. We will NOT stop you. Ha Ha Ha speaking of crazy – they SEE THINGS we don’t.

     Reply
160. mark says:

     15. January 2013 at 2:00 am

     Once again, SG is using words, the definition of which, his 1st grade education did not equip him with.

     Earlier he asserted: “Alright Bhakta Mark. Loose the frivolous talk and stick to the point. This is not about winning or losing a debate. This is about getting to know and understand the truth.”

     To which I indicated that debating is exactly what we were doing as there were 2 people presenting what they consider to be the truth, and as the truth is something which can be proven scientifically, then “THIS IS” about winning or losing the debate.

     I then reiterated the evidence I was using to win the debate, and was unable to respond to counter my evidence, or offer higher evidence.

     Now in a fit of jealousy, he says, “We too do not want waste your valuable time with us. You have not been much of a help in convincing us about this ritvik initiation.”

     The reason is because he will not allow the truth presented in a simple straightforward and INDISPUTABLE manner, to convince him that his sentimental defense of his unnamed living guru is not inline with the truth. We have put forward evidence that he could not refute, but remains unconvinced by his own fanatic adherence to a false icon, and the possibility that he might be such an icon himself in the future.

     And he ends with this gem. “You are free to leave this discussion.”

     When actually it never was a discussion for him. For if it was, he would have discussed with good will and grace, instead of ignoring evidence by mauling various strawmen arguments as if that substitutes for gentlemanly behavior.

     Webster’s dictionary:
     DISCUSSION. 1: consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
     DEBATE: a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

     Prabhupāda: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion.

     Formal or informal, this discussion was and is a debate. SG is the one who failed to provide reasonable evidence to support his contentions, while failing to rebut evidence supporting the position he opposed. This is debating like a rascal.

     And he says we are free to leave?

     Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

     Don’t let the door smack you to hard on the way out SG.

     Reply
161. Puranjana dasa says:

     15. January 2013 at 6:14 am

     Most of the people have left the discussion a long time ago. They either promote the bogus gurus (like Rocana and his ilk does), or they promote the Prabhupadanuga idea of worship of Srila Prabhupada. Fortunately for us, thousands are chosing to work with the Prabhupadanuga idea, meanwhile the GBC idea is falling apart. So really, one has to decide and move forward with whatever plan they think is best, we think ours is the best because for starters, it is working. ys pd

     Reply
162. Santosh says:

     15. January 2013 at 1:28 pm

     But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

     Please explain the meaning of this (from bhakta george’s posting)

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
163. Puranjana dasa says:

     15. January 2013 at 3:28 pm

     But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute. Please explain the meaning of this (from bhakta george’s posting) Your servant, Santosh

     ==============================

     [George has been promoting Rocana as one of his living authorities. Indeed, George now says Rocana is a person simply awaiting to be coronated as a guru himself. Oops, but then George gets angry with Rocana and suddenly says he is glad to be free of Rocana’s program. So you Santosh have to accept Rocana as a living authority, but George, does not? George is simply playing games with your mind Santosh prabhu.

     Notice, on the one hand, George is saying Rocana is the living authority but, on the other hand, of course George hates to accept Rocana’s authority himself. George is simply playing with your mind Santosh prabhu, he wants you to accept these living people like Rocana, because apparently he thinks you are a fool, so you can surrender to the living authority of Rocana, but George never will? This is called hypocrisy.

     Rocana meanwhile claims he is the guru reformer of the parampara acharyas, because he thinks he is in charge of the acharyas of the jagat. Rocana is claiming to be the kindergarten teacher of the acharyas, who are Rocana’s foolish kindergarten students? Why would you surrender to a fool who thinks the acharyas are his kindergarten children that he needs to chastise and advice? Rocana claims to be the higher / reformer authority than the acharyas, and George says Rocana is correct on these issues, but how did Rocana become the kindergarten class teacher for the acharyas, they never tell us?

     Meanwhile, while the other acharyas of the jagat have to accept Rocana as their authority because he is their acharya reformer, George does not have to accept Rocana’s authority, because George is higher than all the acharyas even, he can reject the kindergarten teacher of the acharyas? This is all utter foolishness, who put Rocana in charge of reforming the acharyas? But you have to accept this foolishness, while George does not?

     Meanwhile Rocana is promoting Friends of the BBT (Jayadvaita) and Bhakti Vikas swami and other GBC gurus, which means he is promoting the illicit sex guru’s program, and that is why George wants you to accept Rocana, because they are all — in the end — promoting the illicit sex with men, women and children messiahs project.

     That means George has less morality than even a monkey, because even monkeys do not promote the worship of illicit sex as their messiahs. George is not even monkey brains levels, monkeys do not worship illicit sex messiahs, nor do they promote their program leaders like Bhakti Vikas swami (we have written about BVKS, but we have shredded his program, we are not promoting him). George has a long way to go just to become an animal by this standard. So, George has been promotoing Rocana, and that means, he has been promoting a promoter of the illicit sex messiahs project. He has no moral compass whatsoever, he is simply playing with your brains. ys pd

     Reply
164. mark says:

     15. January 2013 at 7:04 pm

     Santosh, trying to make sense of the ramblings of George (Agent) Smith will only leave you in confusion with more unanswerable questions than when you started.

     Srila Prabhupada said all the answers are in his books, letters, etc.

     Those who advocate the continuance of the Ritvik system of formal initiation within Iskcon use Srila Prabhupada’s clear and direct orders, written on paper, to support their contention.

     Keep reading Srila Prabhupada’s exact words. If you ever find contradictions, they can be harmonized by further reading. And if there is something you need to know immediately and don’t have time to figure out using Prabhupada’s vani, then of course ask a devotee, but don’t ask anyone who’s writings leave you confused due to their vague abstract speculations. Ask someone who can answer in clear words you can understand and back it up with Srila Prabhupada.

     Reply
165. Santosh says:

     16. January 2013 at 8:30 am

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     “Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of
     the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee.”

     “If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.”

     “Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piece-meal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the Truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.”

     “In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakur Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the Realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by a deceptive bye-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakur Bhaktivinode is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.”

     I am humbly saying:-this is an article written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada,and not by George prabhu,isn’t it?
     In this article it is said that we cannot understand Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, without help from a pure devotee. But He is a pure devotee who has written His works,then will not the reader get His help while reading independently…….the same applies for Srila Prabhupada’s books,right?Is it because Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur’s lectures are not recorded that the reader will not get help from Him…and is it because Prabhupada’s lectures are recorded that we can get Prabhupada’s help while reading His books without the help of a physically present Guru?

     Dear Puranjana Prabhu,please try to explain my doubts–I honestly wwant to understand the truth and serve Srila Prabhupada as He wants and I don’t want to take any sides—I want to understand what Srila Prabhupada actually wants.I humbly request you not to ignore the above quotations from Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada’s article as just words of George prabhu—-they are an acarya’s words and so I feel we need to understand them….whether or not –“they(the books) can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth(is it a physically present Guru?) who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute”.
     As a newcomer I am not knowledgeable and so I do not challenge your views nor of anyone else.So please try to answer my humble question without taking any offense.

     Your servant,
     Santosh.

     Reply
166. Puranjana dasa says:

     16. January 2013 at 2:46 pm

     We do not accept any of these writings because Srila Prabhupada told us the post 1936 Gaudiya Matha literature were unauthorizedly edited. He said only the Brahma Samhita was not edited and that is the only book we can read. This is why we also do not accept George, he cites all kinds of documents without his even knowing who is the author. ys pd

     Reply
167. SG says:

     16. January 2013 at 6:14 pm

     Puranjana dasa says:
     13. January 2013 at 3:37 pm

     Dear SG, Srila Prabhupada told us hundreds of times, after he leaves there will only be a Governing Body / GBC. And he said when these GBC managers deviate (meaning some of them will deviate) they have to be replaced.

     So, the only system he established was: temporary and replaceable managers. And he said that system would continue after he departed. And this is all simply verified in the July 9th letter, the will, the 1977
     conversations and so on and so forth. A person who can deviate and be replaced is — not a guru.

     ======================================

     Puranjana Dasa, you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, so what are you doing talking about ritvik.
     By now you should be independently preaching Krsna Consciousness. After 40 over years you should had some
     type of realization on Srila Prabhupada teaching, the purports in his books, you should be talking and
     explaining about the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. You should be talking to the rest
     of us what your guru taught you about Krsna Consciousness, the purpose of life – birth, old age, death.
     You should be talking about Sri Krsna’s instructions in the Bhagavat Gita etc.etc. etc.

     Your tireless exposing of the shenanigans in Iskcon, its appointed gurus, those zonal guru and others etc.
     benefited people like me quite a lot. For this i say thank you and respect you for it. But i do not
     understand your attachment to ritvik. This ritvik propagation hinges on the July 9th letter. But the
     letter does not say that the ritvik initiation must continue after Srila Prabhupada departure. I have
     asked this question many times and the ritviks are not able to show this sentence ” this ritvik initiation
     procedure is to continue in future after my departure” in the July 9th letter. So, how can the ritviks use the letter to propagate ritvik initiation and the initiated his disciple after his departure. Srila Prabhupada has clearly advised in the CC adi lila where he starts off with —

     “It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of
     the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the
     spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself”.

     Everytime the ritviks quote this last line, “the no difference between s.master’s instruction and s.master
     himself”, they cunningly leave the first three lines. And from the above the quote you can see that
     Srila Prabhupada emphasis on direct service to guru first then if there is no chance of that, serve him by remembering his instruction. Period! There is nothing said about taking ritvik initiation or otherwise in
     order to serve the spiritual master to remember his instruction. For his disciple the spiritual master words
     of direction should be his pride in his absence. Srila Prabhupada is not just your spiritual master. He is more than that.He is also your spiritual father. He wanted his disciples to advance spiritually and learn to be independent spiritually. He didn’t say one should hold on to his dothi and suck one’s thumb for the rest of your lives.

     The goal of human life is to go back home back to godhead. Srila Prabhupada has said this many times. This is what Krsna Consciousness is all about. To know that Sri Krsna is the supreme Personality of Godhead and for us to get back home.

     HARE KRSNA.

     P/S – As for Bhakta Mark, don’t go and hide behind this debate and english grammar excuses. If you think you have something to say, just say it, you arrogant, boastful, heckling, ritvik propagandist chimpanzee. But for now go sc*ew yourself. If you don’t know how go seek out that ex zonal guy – Bhavananda dasa. He has some realization on this. He will be able to tell you a thing or two about how to do it, you condesending prick. Take you side kick Mahesh raja with you. He has a big mouth. It will come in handy.

     Reply
168. Amar Puri says:

     16. January 2013 at 6:34 pm

     Santosh, it looks like you are also a non-believer in the Instructions – VaNI of Srila Prabhupada.

     Why I say that it is because you have not even heard Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions through his lectures and books where by Srila Prabhupada prohibits us NOT to jump over to the Instructions of the previous Acarayas to make your point. That is known as blasphemy. That is exactly these people (non-believers of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada) are doing. For a neophyte like you and I and so many others, all of us first must hear from Srila Prabhupada in order to understand and know the writings of the previous Acarayas. Have you heard and read Srila Prabhupada’s all the lectures and his books, Santosh ? If not, then, my humble suggestion to you is that please begin to do so first and then read and re-read Srila Prabhupada’s books to get your answers and discuss the same with the like minded people.

     As you wrote ; ” —-they are an acarya’s words and so I feel we need to understand them….whether or not –”they(the books) can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth(is it a physically present Guru?) who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute”. My answer is that the word from the living source of the Truth is always present in the Spiritual Master – Guru’s Instructions whether the Guru is present or absent. There is NO such CONDTION to it because Guru is always present in his VANI. Where is such condition ? Has Srila Prabhupada not said it many many many times that the Guru is present in his Instructions ? There are so many quotes have been posted in this thread of discussion. Where is your problem to accept it, Santosh ?

     It is your choice, Santosh, either to follow and obey the VANI of Srila Prabhupada or go and follow the bogus gurus of all sorts who are physically present.

     Hope it meets you well.

     Hari BOL. AGTSP.

     YS….. Amar Puri.

     Reply
169. Mahesh Raja says:

     16. January 2013 at 8:26 pm

     Santosh Prabhu the situation is this: George and company are coming with PREVIOUS Acarya quotes BECAUSE they want to DEFY Srila Prabhupada. They have ULTERIOR MOTIVE to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru. FACT!
     The Gaudiya math books that George and company quote are OFTEN MANIPULATED to make you think AGAINST Srila Prabhupada. It is not simply a matter of TRANSLATION only but the MEANING is UNDERSTOOD by Srila Prabhupada and he has WARNED against surpassing his authority.
     George and company presents it as sweet rice mixed with sand. If we have to learn ANYTHING of PREVIOUS acaryas then WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. WE CAN NOT JUMP OVER SRILA PRABHUPADA:

     Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:
     “You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME. This is called parampara system. YOU CANNOT JUMP OVER TO THE SUPERIOR GURU, NEGLECTING THE NEXT ACARYA, IMMEDIATE NEXT ACARYA.”

     73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
     Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.

     74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
     In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

     Best to stick to Srila Prabhupada ONLY. We can verify Srila Prabhupada’s books by cross-check references. Other Acarya books we do not know WHO translated. WHAT was his MISTAKES. Was he AVERSE to Srila Prabhupada?

     Reply
170. mark says:

     17. January 2013 at 4:47 am

     SG REVEALS HIS TRUE NATURE:

     SG: “P/S — As for Bhakta Mark, don’t go and hide behind this debate and english grammar excuses. If you think you have something to say, just say it, you arrogant, boastful, heckling, ritvik propagandist chimpanzee. But for now go sc*ew yourself. If you don’t know how go seek out that ex zonal guy — Bhavananda dasa. He has some realization on this. He will be able to tell you a thing or two about how to do it, you condesending prick. Take you side kick Mahesh raja with you. He has a big mouth. It will come in handy.”

     I was very kind telling him pointing out that he was not employing logic or reason, trying to help him understand what he was actually doing here, because he obviously didn’t understand it himself. Ok, gloves off.

     What a chump. Hiding behind debate? What an idiot. That is all this is. Debate. in his own words the other day, he invited those who’s arguments he could not counter to “leave the discussion”.

     SG 14. January 2013 at 3:09 pm: “You are free to leave this discussion.”

     Boy, just like a Nazi thug to try and tell me what I have the freedom to do or not to do. HA HA HA.

     And when I pointed out that the dictionary used by the entire English speaking world defines a discussion as a debate, he further foams at the mouth and says I am “hiding behind grammar excuses”.

     Back to school buddy.

     If I think I have something to say? Ha, you haven’t had an original thought in your life, and are in no position to know what I am thinking, or saying for that matter, so let me be crystal clear.

     YOU ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS OR DEBATE. YOU ARE HERE TO TRY AND RAM YOUR CONCOCTED VERSION OF SIDDHANTA DOWN OUR THROATS, WITHOUT ARGUMENT.

     AND IF WE DON’T ACCEPT YOUR BOORISH BULLY ADVANCES, YOU PROJECTS YOUR TRUE HOMOSEXUAL NAZI NATURE UPON US CURSING US WITH DIRTY SODOMITE SUGGESTIONS.

     Be gone.

     Reply
171. Bhakta Hugh says:

     17. January 2013 at 2:28 pm

     SG: “This ritvik propagation hinges on the July 9th letter. But the letter does not say that the ritvik initiation must continue after Srila Prabhupada departure. I have asked this question many times and the ritviks are not able to show this sentence ” this ritvik initiation procedure is to continue in future after my departure” in the July 9th letter.”

     The July 9th letter is not just a letter but a document:

     “ … am enclosing herein two documents:
     1) Srila Prabhupada’s final version of his last will, and
     2) Srila Prabhupada’s initial list of disciples appointed to perform initiations for His Divine Grace.”
     (Letter from Ramesvara to all GBC’s)

     Please note how Ramesvara regards the July 9th directive as a document on par with the will. Also Srila Prabhupada specifically countersigned it, giving two signatures, which again is what is expected in a document as opposed to just a personal letter. This is significant because other letters that H.H. Tamala Krishna Maharaja sent out which Srila Prabhupada had even dictated (see July 31st letter to Hansaduta), Srila Prabhupada saw no need to authorise through his signature. Yet the July 9th directive he made a special point of ‘approving’.
     The directive makes reference to an earlier meeting:

     “Recently when all of the GBC members with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint …”

     Thus the contents of the directive are simply the contents of the meeting in a written form. The directive also makes it clear what the position of the disciples, Srila Prabhupada and the ritvik is:

     “The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the eleven senior devotees acting as his representative.”

     Now to address SG’s concern; We have 3 time frames, past, present and future. Everyone at that time knew who was guru in the past, who was guru at present, so SG …

     why would Prabhupada go to the bother of sending a document “To All G.B.C., and Temple Presidents,”about something which they were already aware and in acceptance of?

     What was not clear to some GBC’s was… the future time frame.

     “Satsvarupa Maharaja: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted.” (May 28th 1977)”

     Thus by logic we can deduce that the July 9th document can only refer to … a future time frame.

     “..it is a fact that without logic and reason there can be no question of accepting the Absolute Truth..” (CC. Adi 8.15)

     Besides logic, the document itself contains a timeframe:

     “Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple.”

     Some puerile minded individuals argue that “henceforward” only refers to the sending of recommendations. However, since the sending of recommendations is an integral part of the desired process outline by His Divine Grace, then the whole process is affected by “henceforward“.
     How else can it be?

     Reply
172. Mark says:

     17. January 2013 at 4:43 pm

     Careful there Bhakta Hugh. Hiding behind logic and reason is not acceptable when “discussing” things with SG. Doing so may prompt him to curse you to a life of buggery.

     Reply
173. SG says:

     18. January 2013 at 12:18 pm

     Bhakta mark,

     Who made you a grammar police, you narcissistic bonehead. Did i invite you to correct the grammar in my comments, you pompous ass. How one writes, how good is ones English, how bad is ones grammar, whether they make sence or not is not your business to criticize that person. Don’t be a busybody, Jerk!

     If you have an opinion, whether you agree/disagree with the issue being discussed you just post it.
     Thats all. Go read up on all your comments in this and other forums. It tells a lot about who you are ( Character/Nature).

     It looks like you have some kind of a sickness you condesending prick. So, here are some quotes for you to read up about yourself.
     Its all there, all about you, you and you!

     =============================

     “It used to be we thought that people who went around correcting other people’s grammar were just plain annoying. Now there’s evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.

     Punitiveness – People with this schema believe that anyone who makes an error, large or small, should be criticized or disciplined. They are also quick to get angry with others, as well as with themselves, and they fail to consider reasonable circumstances that could explain why the error was made.

     Narcissistic Personality Disorder –

     People who have narcissistic personality disorder believe that they have many exceptional characteristics and deserve to be admired by others; plus, they often lack sympathy and compassion for others.1

     According to cognitive behavioral therapy, the schema of a person who has narcissistic personality disorder might be something like “Since I’m superior to others, I deserve special privileges,” and as a result, the person thinks, “If others don’t serve me, I’ll punish them.”48

     People who have this style of personality are often preoccupied with their own success, intelligence, and attractiveness. It’s very important to them that others see them as influential, talented, beautiful, intelligent, and persuasive.95, 96 People with this problem think that they are entitled to special attention from others. They also believe that they can only be truly understood by other people like them and that they should only associate with other people of high status. People with narcissistic personalities consider other people to be of lesser standing than they are, and so they will criticize others for their faults, act enviously of their successes, and take advantage of others to get their own needs met.

     Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by dramatic, emotional behavior, which is in the same category as antisocial and borderline personality disorders.

     Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
     Believing that you’re better than others, Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness,
     Exaggerating your achievements or talents, Expecting constant praise and admiration
     Believing that you’re special and acting accordingly, Failing to recognize other people’s emotions and feelings
     Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans, Taking advantage of others,
     Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior, Being jealous of others, Believing that others are jealous of you, Trouble keeping healthy relationships, Setting unrealistic goals, Being easily hurt and rejected
     Having a fragile self-esteem, Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.

     Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence or strong self-esteem, it’s not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence and self-esteem into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal. In contrast, people who have healthy confidence and self-esteem don’t value themselves more than they value others.

     When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may have a sense of entitlement. And when you don’t receive the special treatment to which you feel entitled, you may become very impatient or angry. You may insist on having “the best” of everything — the best car, athletic club, medical care or social circles, for instance.

     But underneath all this behavior often lies a fragile self-esteem. You have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have a sense of secret shame and humiliation. And in order to make yourself feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and efforts to belittle the other person to make yourself appear better.”

     You are a sick man Bhakta Mark and don’t forget buggering is your area of speciality too you sadistic faggot.

     Reply
174. SG says:

     18. January 2013 at 12:49 pm

     Bhakta Hugh says:
     13. January 2013 at 1:52 pm

     1.“I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.” (Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

     2.“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
     (28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)

     SG; Would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to which part of …. / is difficult to understand?

     Bhakta Huges, Your quotes above, I understand them perfectly. Quote no.1 – during a radio interview, someone probably the radio presenter is asking Srila Prabhupada a question ??? to which Srila Prabhupada replies the above.

     As for your quote no.2 its very much straight forward. He is saying “execute” in this case means to carry out, to put in effect what your guru said. Don’t think of any nonsense in this case anything foolish. So, nothing to enlighten you with.

     Now, my question to you Bhakta Hugh is, do you understand the quotes that you have presented? For example when you come and quote to me something like “don’t think nonsense, simply execute what you guru has said” – are you also following that same instruction? Please let me know then we go to the next question which i have for you.

     I am sorry for the late reply.

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
175. SG says:

     18. January 2013 at 1:56 pm

     Pratyatosa dasa,

     What is it that you said about this narcissistic bonehead Bhakta Mark, never mind
     i will quote your own words
     ” Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
     13. January 2013 at 1:58 pm

     Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, your reply to SG is a perfect example of the “clear mind of a devotee.” I am impressed. So impressed, in fact, that I took the liberty of copy/pasting it . I hope you don’t mind”

     You really think so, Pratyatosa dasa that this idiot bhakta Mark is an example of “clear mind of a devotee.” Well, I would like you to read the quote below something which probably you must have forgotten. The public humiliation and condemnation of your wife, you and family by this condescending prick bhakta Mark for nothing more than letting you know what she thought about your question.

     ” Pratyatosa: “Shut the heck up?” May I remind you, Bhakta Mark Prabhu, that “This is the forum for the disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada who are not afraid of the truth.” Do you think that you are in ISKCON or in North Korea where freedom of speech is not allowed?
     A few months ago, on the Vaisnavacouncil forum, someone asked me whether or not we should look upon Srila Prabhupada as sometimes being mistaken. I asked my wife how I should answer that question, and she said (paraphrased), “It’s not that when Srila Prabhupada says “New Virginia” we go and cross out “West Virginia” on all of our maps!”

     Bhakta Mark:
     Also sorry you feel you need to ask someone else, especially a woman who wants to be a diksa guru, what to think about your Guru’s approach to things. Better to work hard and develop a relationship with Him as Caitya Guru so you can go to the source, or next best a humble unassuming male Bhakta who you at least respect somewhat.

     And lastly, only an immature, fanatic with arrested mental development would equate your “new virginia” example with a situation where scripture is backing what Srila Prabhupada is saying, as well as at least one scientist. A person who would equate the two probably needs to go to the plow department, and take a better birth next life where their preceptor can teach them sense of proportion as opposed to letting them watch cartoons all day. ys B.Mark.

     Try to be sincere , honest and truthful Pratyatosa dasa. The development of this qualities was suppose to be part of your training as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. By now after more than forty plus years, this among other sadhu qualities should be running in your blood.

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
176. Mahesh Raja says:

     18. January 2013 at 1:57 pm

     So SG thinks he can TWIST meanings here TRY this SG:

     75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
     The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

     Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968
     I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.

     SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
     The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.

     SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
     The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.

     Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

     Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA):

     740615rc.par Conversations
     Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
     Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.

     72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
     Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
177. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     18. January 2013 at 4:37 pm

     SG says:

     Pratyatosa dasa,

     What is it that you said about this narcissistic bonehead Bhakta Mark, never mind i will quote your own words: …

     Dear Bhakta Mark Prabhu, your reply to SG is a perfect example of the “clear mind of a devotee.” I am impressed. So impressed, in fact, that I took the liberty of copy/pasting it [to http://rtvik.com/?TP=4918%5D. I hope you don’t mind”

     You really think so, Pratyatosa dasa that this idiot bhakta Mark is an example of “clear mind of a devotee…”

     So according to you, SG Prabhu, I’m supposed to be feeling vengeful toward Bhakta Mark Prabhu because we had some slight disagreement 2 1/2 years ago? And, therefore, I shouldn’t quote him, even when I agree with him, because of a feeling of vengefulness? Is that the way you deal with the devotees of the Lord? Like some low-class vengeful minded karmi woman?

     Also, the fact that you are resorting to vicious name-calling simply makes YOU look bad, not Bhakta Mark.

     Reply
178. SG says:

     18. January 2013 at 5:36 pm

     Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
     18. January 2013 at 4:37 pm

     “So according to you, SG Prabhu, I’m supposed to be feeling vengeful toward Bhakta Mark Prabhu because we had some slight disagreement 2 1/2 years ago? And, therefore, I shouldn’t quote him, even when I agree with him, because of a feeling of vengefulness? Is that the way you deal with the devotees of the Lord? Like some low-class vengeful minded karmi woman?

     Also, the fact that you are resorting to vicious name-calling simply makes YOU look bad, not Bhakta Mark”

     =======================================///

     SG – Well, if it is alright with you, who am to say anything about it. After all your understanding of taking care of a family is to beat your wife and then try to put the blame on Srila Prabhupada, again in your words –

     “Soon after we got married, the temple president ordered me to beat my wife! He said that it was Prabhupada’s recommendation, and that it would help my wife to make more rapid spiritual advancement. He told me that I should beat her on her bare back with a leather belt, and he even supplied me with the belt !

     It was common knowledge within ISKCON, at the time, that Srila Prabhupada condoned using corporal punishment to try to “tame” one’s wife. Was this a misunderstanding of Srila Prabhupada on the part of the ISKCON leaders? Perhaps it was. In any case, we had no way of knowing at the time.

     However, the rumors flying around the Internet that I broke her jaw or caused spinal column damage are false. Except for one small scar on her face as a result of my slapping her on the cheek having caused her head to bump into a wooden towel rack which, unfortunately, had sharp edges, there was no permanent bodily injury whatsoever. Like I said before, I was a wife beater for the first 20 of the 23 years that my wife and I lived together.

     SG – Me being vengeful, not really. Just being honest about who you really are.

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
179. SG says:

     18. January 2013 at 6:21 pm

     Mahesh Raja says:
     18. January 2013 at 1:57 pm

     So SG thinks he can TWIST meanings here TRY this SG:

     Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA)

     740615rc.par Conversations
     Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
     Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.

     ==================================================///

     Mahesh Raja,

     Please, you have to make up your mind. Earlier you said you are wasting your valuable time talking to us. You have also decided that we are in the mode of ignorance (tamo guna).You have also quoted Srila Prabhupada saying that those in the tamo guna cannot understand anything. So, why are still challangeing us with your various quotes ? What is your reason.?

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
180. mark says:

     18. January 2013 at 6:27 pm

     Pratyatosa is a gentleman.

     Not only that but SG cherry picked those statements of mine out of context from the conversation they were in, making it look like I was telling Pratyatosa das to “shut the heck up.” SG neglected to post the actual quote. But I did when I wrote a response to Prayatosa that day.

     Mark: “Sorry you misunderstood me. Re-read what I said.

     “If any of his disciples ever find themselves in a situation where some karmi scientist is contradicting what Srila Prabhupada said, especially when there is our scripture that is leaning in Prabhupada’s
     favor, the disciple should say nothing that would contradict Prabhupada. They should either defend Srila Prabhupada by making the higher spiritual point, or shut the heck up and walk away. End of
     story.”

     It was not an order or command from me. I was only pointing out what is in the best interest of someone to avoid Guru aparadha. And I qualified the suggestion quite narrowly using Scripture as the
     basis.
     ———————————————————

     Although I meant the next thing I said about asking advice from a deviant woman, it was not very tactful since it was Pratyatosa’s wife. But we were not doing the diplomatic thing, and the truth is the truth.

     And still to this day, I would characterize the mindset of someone who equates a simple mistake like saying “new virginia” to statements about visiting the moon based on Sastra and the opinions of some scientists as well, as an argument in the context of the discussion at hand, to be immature and making a fanatic attempt to win an argument.

     I never corrected SG on his Grammar. He still refused to take good advice and look up the word to see what it means before continuing to use it.

     I accused him, rightly so by the evidence, of losing the debate that has been going on here. I pointed out that he was using words that he didn’t even know the definition of. He calls that being a “grammar police man”. I say what the hell are you doing entering a discussion (debate) without educating yourself on what you are saying? SG wants to argue and make a point, but when someone points out his point is wrong, he gets so upset and offended that he attacks the person using perverted sexual curses? Is that humility? I don’t think so. It is INSANITY.

     And he keeps coming back for more. Because he can’t let go and accept he was wrong. That he uses words without knowing what they even mean. That is classic narcissism. And then he whips out a psychology manual copying and pasting all sorts of characterizations accusing me of being what he obviously is. He was the one who couldn’t admit he was wrong. He was the one who became violently offensive in his cursing of me. SG should look up the psychological term “projection”. But he is probably breaking things in his house right now while reading this and his only thoughts are how to dig his hole deeper.

     My problem is that when some dipsquat like SG crosses the line, I jump over the line with him and give back what he gave, in a way that illustrates how supremely stupid he is. But that is a fault of mine. It shows how far I have to go with my own cultivation of humility.

     But at least I can admit it.

     Reply
181. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     18. January 2013 at 6:50 pm

     Well SG, while you hide behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity, and since you have obviously lost the debate, all that you have left is low-class, kill-the-messenger type of character assassination (ad hominem attacks).

     Abusive – ad hominem (also called “personal abuse” or “personal attacks”) usually involves attacking the claims of an opponent trying to invalidate their arguments, but can also involve pointing out true character flaws or actions irrelevant to the opponent’s argument. Equating someone’s character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy.

     (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

     BTW, if anyone is interested in the entire message that SG quoted from, here it is:

     http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/browse_thread/thread/85be1700c7cfe7e6/

     But SG’s resorting to character assassination as a last-ditch effort to try to win the debate is not going to work. The readers of this website are too intelligent to fall for it.

     Reply
182. mark says:

     18. January 2013 at 7:15 pm

     And the little cowardly malcontent known anonymously as SG, who doesn’t know a discussion from a donut, resorts to more ad hominem arguments. Oh wait, I am sorry, there goes condescending know it all Bhakta Mark using Big words again. Gotta dumb it down for the slow crowd, you know, those too lazy to open a dictionary to educate themselves.

     SG could not prove his point in a debate because he was unable to use evidence, unable to employ logic, and unable to admit when evidence was used properly against his arguments He was unable to admit the fact that he was using words without even knowing their definition.

     So his own opinion of his stature was diminished by the truth. And instead of reducing his false impression of his stature and humbly admitting defeat, he seeks solace in his mighty ability to attack and find fault in the character of others, as if those character faults somehow diminish the truth of the facts they presented to defeat him. This is known as an AD HOMINEM ARGUMENT. An argument made against your opponents character instead of the facts he presents.

     Look, look, Mark has a big wart on his nose, and he smells like garlic! He can’t be right! Nyana Nyana Nyah nyah.

     Since I happen to be a little better at articulating the faults in SG’s character, and since there is no longer a debate, I am exercising my ability.

     But the difference between me and SG is that I know that there is someone even better at clever fault finding and character assassination than I am. So I don’t depend on it to define my presence here. I use it only after I have already won a debate on the facts, and there is nothing left to do but point out and clearly define the pathology of people like SG who refuse to admit defeat and begin frothing at the mouth. I do this in order to educate onlookers who might not understand what drives a person like SG, or George, or Jarek to be so delusional as to think they are Spiritual Masters, when they can’t even admit when they are wrong! What a joke.

     Reply
183. Puranjana dasa says:

     18. January 2013 at 8:55 pm

     Right, argumentum ad hominem, known in my high school debates class as “the last refuge of rascals.” Notice also how George A. Smith says he follows a female guru who passed away 500 years ago, but he will not tell us who that is, this another simply process not allowed in formal debates, i.e. — infering you are basing your statement on fact, while not citing any evidence to prove that your fact even exists. More cheating debate techniques. My High School debate class would have laughed at these foolish attempts and not allowed these people to discuss any further until they began to debate properly. ys pd

     Reply
184. Raghubir Das says:

     18. January 2013 at 9:15 pm

     Thanks SG from Penang, Malaysia – southeast Asia’s finest destination. It is of course correct, vedic culture gives merit according one’s quality of work and character.
     Therefore we follow Srila Prabhupada who like a post peon delivered the treasure house of all transcendental literatures. Basically Prabhupada always used to quote from sastra and back up his lectures by authoritative source. Just like sastra. Sastra and lawbook is the same. Sastra means that which controls. Sas-dhatu. Sastra, sastra, sasana, sisya comes from the same root.
     So far nobody has produced any upgrade, further development, what Prabhupada presented in his teachings. Therefore Prabhupada is the current link of Krishna’s parampara system. What do you want more?

     Reply
185. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     19. January 2013 at 12:06 am

     For all we know, SG, you could be some big, fat, greasy, scum-bag of a pedophile, one of the demons who went scot-free after costing ISKCON $15 million as a result of the “Children of ISKCON vs. ISKCON” child abuse lawsuit! (http://surrealist.org/jpgs05/complaint_state.pdf)

     Reply
186. SG says:

     19. January 2013 at 5:19 am

     Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
     19. January 2013 at 12:06 am

     For all we know, SG, you could be some big, fat, greasy, scum-bag of a pedophile, one of the demons who went scot-free after costing ISKCON $15 million as a result of the “Children of ISKCON vs. ISKCON” child abuse lawsuit! (http://surrealist.org/jpgs05/complaint_state.pdf)

     =========================///

     SG – Yes, whatever.

     Reply
187. SG says:

     19. January 2013 at 5:22 am

     Raghubir Das says:
     18. January 2013 at 9:15 pm

     ” Basically Prabhupada always used to quote from sastra and back up his lectures by authoritative source.”

     Presume, Raghubir dasa that you must have been following this discussion on “ritvik”. If ritviks want to argue on the basis of sastra, then don’t use the July’9 1977 letter to claim that Srila Prabhupada wanted the ritvik initiation to continue after his departure and that the initiated will become his disciples. The ritviks must decide. If the ritviks want to use Srila Prabhupada’s name and his July 9th letter to claim he said so then show us where it is stated in that letter. Otherwise it is simply cheating.

     If they want to use the sastra then first admit that it not stated in the letter. Otherwise why put up such a claim and then use the everything else except the July 9th letter to back it up? Just don’t be sneaky.
     Be sincere and truthful. It should not be a difficult thing to do.

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
188. Santosh says:

     19. January 2013 at 11:06 am

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
     “A final factor in my accumulative decision to leave ISKCON was a philosophical one: a growing awareness that however much wisdom and beauty may be found in a particular religious tradition, no one tradition, no one system, can speak fully for any one individual. Whatever the possible transcendent origins of a spiritual path, it is passed down through human persons: wise, insightful, saintly persons perhaps, but distinct, individual persons nonetheless—having their own distinctive life histories, experiences, temperaments, ways of thinking, feeling and communicating. Though there was much in Krishna consciousness that I found deeply meaningful and appealing, I began to realize (subtly, slowly, over a long period of time) that, short of simply obliterating my own thoughts and feelings, I could not blindly, automatically accept every word of the scriptures (e.g., women are inferior to men, thunder and lightening come from Lord Indra, the sun is closer to the earth than the moon, etc.)”
     These are some lines from an article called, “On leaving ISKCON”- by Steven J. Gelburg from the website http://surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/gelberg1.html.
     I’m not troubled by the sadness he has expressed in this article, since I understand that it was caused by the bogus ISKCON gurus. But my main doubt is when he says, – “I could not blindly, automatically accept every word of the scriptures (e.g., women are inferior to men, thunder and lightening come from Lord Indra, the sun is closer to the earth than the moon, etc.)”. Can you please explain me how I can accept that, “the sun is nearer than the moon”? Can you kindly give me the sastric quotes from Prabhupada’s books so that I can be convinced. I will be very grateful if anyone can provide me with a reply.

     Your servant,

     Santosh

     Reply
189. Mahesh Raja says:

     19. January 2013 at 11:57 am

     Santosh wrote:
     Can you please explain me how I can accept that “the sun is nearer than the moon”?Can you kindly give me the sastric quotes from Prabhupada’s books so that I can be convinced.I will be very grateful if anyone can provide me with a reply.

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     SB 8.18.5 P Lord Vamanadeva, the Dwarf Incarnation
     Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, an expert astrologer, explains the word naksatra-taradyah. The word naksatra means “the stars,” the word tara in this context refers to the planets, and adyah means “the first one specifically mentioned.” Among the planets, the first is Surya, the sun, not the moon. Therefore, according to the Vedic version, the modern astronomer’s proposition that the moon is nearest to the earth should not be accepted. The chronological order in which people all over the world refer to the days of the week–Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday–corresponds to the Vedic order of the planets and thus circumstantiates the Vedic version. Apart from this, when the Lord appeared the planets and stars became situated very auspiciously, according to astrological calculations, to celebrate the birth of the Lord.

     75-11-21.Dr. Letter: Dr. W.H. Wolf-Rottkay
     If they say the moon is 240,000 miles from the earth, then why is the moon not mentioned first? Why not Monday being the first day of the week? According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, the sun is first, the moon is second and therefore we have no objection to the first of the week being Sunday and then Monday. Why is it universally accepted in all languages that Sunday is first and then Monday? Why is it not Monday and then Sunday?

     750516mw.per Conversations
     Prabhupada: This “Sunday, Monday,” means first sun, then moon. Where they are going? They are going to hell, not in the moon. This Vedic description is right. Because first study, Sunday… That, we offer gayatri to the sun. So the moon is after the sun–this is the proof, first Sunday, then Monday. So if their calculation is 93,000,000 miles from here, and moon is one million, six thousand still farther, then where they are going? If they simply follow strictly this moon expedition and they admit they have not gone, then the whole civilization will change. All wrong conclusion. But they will have to admit now. Now they are serious, and they will have to say that they’ve never gone to the moon. And they will have to continue this. Otherwise they will be farce before the world. They will have to continue it. Now they are in such a position.

     760604iv.la Conversations
     Prabhupada: Yes. From the…. That question I was discussing the other day. In the common sense, gross sense, that all over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in this way Saturday last. So why these arrangement? Sunday first and Monday second, and nobody could reply it. But as a layman I can conclude that Sun planet is first and the moon planet is next. So if you cannot go to the sun planet, which is ninety-three million miles away, how you can go to the moon planet within four days? Nobody could answer me. Can you answer?
     Reporter: Well, I don’t think it’s worth the answer now, but I’m wondering what your response is.
     Prabhupada: But this is the arrangement all over the world. Sunday first, Monday second, then Tuesday. So Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, in this way. Last Saturn. This is the arrangement of the planets. So if this is the arrangement of the planets, moonday next to…, moon next to sun, and if you cannot go to the sun, how can you go to the moon?
     Reporter: Do you, in other words, do you believe that astronauts landed somewhere?
     Prabhupada: That is next question. First of all, whether you actually went to the moon, that is the first question. You have to conclude that you did not, because the sun planet is first, the moon planet is second. You cannot go to the sun planet, ninety-three millions of miles, how can you go to the moon planet?
     Reporter: Well, except that…
     Prabhupada: According to our sastra, the moon planet is above the sun planet, and the distance is 1,600,000 miles. So accepting that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away, then you add another 1,600,000, almost 2,000,000, it becomes 15,000,000 miles away. So if you go at the speed of 18,000 miles per hour, it takes more than 6 months. So how you go there in 4 days? And you advertise in the paper: “Now, they have reached.” After 4 days.
     Ramesvara: They don’t accept that the moon is further away.
     Prabhupada: They don’t accept, that is another thing, but we have got this information. How we can accept it?
     Reporter: I didn’t understand that last.
     Ramesvara: I said to Prabhupada that the modern man believes that the moon is closer, but Prabhupada said, “But our ancient literatures teach that the moon is further away.” So since we have that information, how can we accept the version of the modern scientists?
     Reporter: Hm hm.
     Ramesvara: We’ve got…
     Prabhupada: Not only that. Why this arrangement that Monday and, Sunday first, Monday second?
     Reporter: Well, that doesn’t necessarily speak of distance.
     Prabhupada: Hm?
     Reporter: It doesn’t necessarily speak of distance.
     Prabhupada: That…. Distance may not be, but you have to accept the sun planet first, moon planet next.
     Reporter: Er…
     Prabhupada: Distance is not the question.
     Reporter: OK.
     Prabhupada: Why this arrangement: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday? There is some system. The system is, just like first, second, third, fourth. So it is naturally concluded the moon planet is next to the sun planet.
     Reporter: Do you feel–maybe you answered this, but I didn’t understand the answer–do you feel that astronauts did land somewhere, but it was some other planet?
     Prabhupada: That may be. Or it may not be also.
     Tamala Krsna: What about that sometimes people ask us what about the pictures of man on the moon?
     Ramesvara: They show man in a spacesuit walking on some other planet.
     Prabhupada: That is also, what is called, argumentative. Somebody says it is arbitrary arrangement.
     Reporter: Hm. Laboratory.
     Prabhupada: Of course, we do not go into the details of this. My question is that why Sunday first and Monday second? Nobody can apli…, replies.
     Ramesvara: Prabhupada once also argued that the dust, the dirt that they brought back, it did not reflect any light, but the moon is always reflecting light. So it was a different substance than what must be on the moon surface.
     Prabhupada: Now, according to our Vedic scripture, Moon is one of the heavenly planets.
     Reporter: Are there any other Vedic scriptures that you believe speak to a situation that is greatly misunderstood today besides this?
     Prabhupada: No. Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version.
     Reporter: But do people, say another example where what you hold is very different from what the rest of society holds, is there something else that would be…
     Prabhupada: No. Why…
     Ramesvara: No, he means, Prabhupada, that just like modern man is thinking that they went to the moon, and our Vedic scripture says they didn’t, so he’s asking are there any other controversies, just like reincarnation, transmigration…
     Prabhupada: No, so far Vedic students are concerned, there are no controversies.
     Ramesvara: But from what the modern man believes there may be some differences.
     Prabhupada: Modern man believes, that’s all right, but…
     Ramesvara: That’s what his question is.
     Prabhupada: Our, our basic knowledge is on the Vedic principle. That whatever…. Just like we are explaining now, veda-vihito dharmah. We have to understand everything from the Vedas, from this Vedic knowledge. So anything which does not speak acc…. in terms of the Vedic formula, we do not accept such knowledge as valid.
     Reporter: OK.
     Prabhupada: But practically you are seeing that. But…
     Reporter: Would you accept conclusions from science that…, only if it agreed with the Vedic scriptures?
     Prabhupada: First of all…. As you say science. What do you mean by science? Can you explain?
     Reporter: Well, what the…, the best conclusions of the best people in science.
     Prabhupada: Yes. That’s all right, but what is the best conclusion?
     Reporter: Well, rely on their opinions.
     Prabhupada: That is opinion, the opinion is changing. How you can rely? That is not fixed up. So what is this opinion, what is the value of this opinion?
     Reporter: Well…
     Prabhupada: You give some opinion, and after some years you change it. So what is the…. How can I rely on your opinion?
     Reporter: Would Darwin’s theory of evolution and other evolutionary theories…
     Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. If it is being changed every year or every ten years, then what is the value of this opinion? There is no value.

     760604mw.la Conversations
     Prabhupada: Ask them. If they say moon planet is first, why not Monday first? Why Sunday first? That’s a fact. Sun planet first, then moon, then Mars. Ravi, Soma, Mangala, Bhu. That is the calculation.
     Tamala Krsna: That means that all the countries are cooperating together to cheat the people, because they’re all…
     Prabhupada: No, no. They have taken from the Vedic literature.
     Bali-mardana: No, they are right, Sunday, Monday.
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Tamala Krsna: No, I mean to say that everyone is saying that they have gone to the moon, that means they are all together cheating.
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Radhavallabha: The scientists have got radiotelescopes. They bounce the sound vibration off the planet, and depending on how long it takes the sound to come back, that’s how far away it is.
     Prabhupada: Huh?
     Radhavallabha: They bounce sound vibration off a planet, and depending on how long it takes the vibration to come back, that’s how far away the planet is. So they’ve calculated the sun to be further in that way.
     Prabhupada: First of all, answer why Sunday first. Then talk of all nonsense.
     Candanacarya: Mars is after the moon?
     Prabhupada: Huh?
     Candanacarya: Mars is after the moon?
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Candanacarya: Because in French, Tuesday is the word for Mars.
     Prabhupada: And Saturday is last. Saturn is last.
     Yadubara: Srila Prabhupada?
     Prabhupada: Each planet is 1,600,000 miles away from one another.
     Tamala Krsna: 1,600,000.
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Yadubara: They say they went 250,000 miles twice.
     Prabhupada: They say, let them say, first of all answer “Why Sunday first?”
     Tamala Krsna: What about these pictures we have seen on the television showing them jumping on the moon?
     Prabhupada: That you can make in laboratory. That is not very difficult.
     Tamala Krsna: Colossal hoax.
     Mahendra: …pictures are like the King Kong movie.
     Prabhupada: Yes. In King Kong movie they made cotton as cloud. (laughs). They can do everything in the laboratory.
     Yadubara: They are making that movie again, Srila Prabhupada. Spending millions to make it again.
     Prabhupada: Which movie?
     Yadubara: King Kong.
     Prabhupada: Oh.
     Ramesvara: They have got some gigantic King Kong figure. It moves like a gigantic doll. Actually, to make a movie now they spend maybe ten, fifteen million dollars for one movie. (break)
     Prabhupada: They cannot cleanse nowadays?
     Hari-sauri: They made a movie called “2001,” and in that they had shots of men on different planets. It looked just like the moon shots. It was very…, just the same.
     Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the moon. I mean, that’s a good logic, but they’ll think that’s very childish for us to say “Sunday first, Monday.”
     Prabhupada: Well, let them remain as child.
     Candanacarya: Srila Prabhupada once said that if the moon is dirt and dust, how is it that it reflects the light of the sun so much that it lights up the whole planet?
     Prabhupada: Yes. The common sense. They have lost their common sense.
     Candanacarya: It’s so shiny that it lights up the whole earth planet at night.
     Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
     Candanacarya: How can dirt reflect light like that?
     Prabhupada: That was my first question.
     Tamala Krsna: I think that we should write a, we should publish a little book on this, Prabhupada.
     Prabhupada: If you can.
     Tamala Krsna: Maybe one of the scientists.
     Candanacarya: There are many scientists who agree.
     Prabhupada: Now our scientists are challenging, Svarupa Damodara and others.
     Tamala Krsna: Yes. They could scientifically publish a book.
     Candanacarya: There are scientists in England who agree that they didn’t go to the planet.
     Prabhupada: Huh?
     Candanacarya: There are some scientists in England who agree with you that they did not go to the moon.
     Prabhupada: Yes, they did not. Simply propaganda. (japa) (break) Freedom.

     760706r3.wdc Conversations
     Prabhupada: Distance, whatever it may be. But the sun is first, then moon, then Mars, then Jupiter, then like that. One after another. Otherwise, why Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, like that?
     Yadubara: That means the distance, then, from the earth?
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Yadubara: Sun is first.
     Prabhupada: According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, the moon is situated 1,600,000 miles away up to the sun. Upper. So according to their calculation, 93,000,000 miles, sun is situated from the earth. And if the moon is plus 1,600,000 then it becomes 15,000,000 miles. So 15,000,000 miles it takes about…
     Hari-sauri: Ninety-five million.
     Prabhupada: Ah?
     Hari-sauri: Ninety-five million.
     Prabhupada: :Yes. That. Ninety five millions. It takes at least seven…
     Hari-sauri: Seven months.
     Prabhupada: Seven months, to the speed they are going, 18,000 miles per hour. So how they have gone in four days?
     Yadubara: According to…
     Prabhupada: They have brought some sand. Such a brilliant planet which is illuminating the whole universe and they brought sand. All bluff.
     Svarupa Damodara: They’ve studied this very carefully.
     Prabhupada: All bluff.
     Yadubara: According to the Bhagavatam, the sun is also 93,000,000 miles away from the earth?
     Prabhupada: That is we shall see later on. It is about. The whole diameter is 4 billions. And sun is situated almost in the middle. It is my firm conviction that they did not go to the moon. Neither they’ll be able to go to the Mars as they have planned it.
     Svarupa Damodara: But their scientists would be mad…
     Prabhupada: They are mad already, they’re talking all nonsense. Already they’re mad.
     Svarupa Damodara: They’re studying all the rocks from the moon.
     Prabhupada: Rascals. What they will get? They studied the rock. And they have found one crack in the whole moon planet, and there’s no living being?
     Svarupa Damodara: Actually the rocks are being distributed all over the world.
     Prabhupada: Ah?
     Svarupa Damodara: For analysis. Little portion of the rock that they have brought from different stratas(?), they have distributed all over the world. And the report is coming that a portion of the elements (indistinct), so from there they calculate how old the moon is. It’s about the same age as the earth, about 4.5 million years.
     Prabhupada: They say similar rocks are available here.
     Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
     Prabhupada: Then why they bother about bringing rock from there?
     Svarupa Damodara: To investigate more.
     Prabhupada: What is investigation? Simply bluff.
     Hari-sauri: Similar rocks are available here, because the same rock was taken from here.
     Prabhupada: If the rock is the same, so why not living beings there?
     Svarupa Damodara: They claim there is no atmosphere.
     Prabhupada: No, if the atmosphere is different, the rock must be different. The sun must be different. The atmosphere is different, but the rock sand is the same? They have to believe that? Everything should be different.

     740620BG.GER Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes. (translator reads German translation) So our natural tendency is to go to other, better planets. Therefore people are trying to go to the moon planet. Similarly, you can go to the sun planet, heavenly planet. There are so many. But the information is, even though you reach the topmost planet of this universe, still, there the four principles of material life, namely, birth, death, old age and disease, are there. So we can go to the topmost planet. There is process how to go.

     urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
     madhye tisthanti rajasah
     jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
     adho gacchanti tamasah

     If you keep yourself in sattva-guna, or in the modes of goodness, you are promoted to the higher planetary system. Even to the topmost planetary system. That is called urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. And if you keep yourself in the modes of passion, you shall remain within the middle planetary system. This is middle planetary system. This earthly planet, it is called Bhurloka. Then, above this, there is Bhuvarloka. Then, above that, Svargaloka. That is heavenly planets. The heavenly planets begins from the moon planet. Jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasah. And those who are in the modes of darkness, they go down, down, down. The animal life is also amongst the down, I mean to say, modes of life. So this human form of life is a chance to make our choice where we shall go next, in the higher or in the lower, or we shall remain here. So how to go to the higher planetary system, that is also mentioned. Yanti deva-vrata devan

     760610SB.LA Lectures
     So if one associates with the sattva-guna, then he is promoted gradually to the higher planetary system. Higher planetary system. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. Everything explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Those who are developing the good qualities of this material world, three qualities, so urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. The upper planetary system, heavenly planetary system… Therefore we say that you cannot go to the moon planet, from the sastra. Because the moon planet, who will go? Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah. Unless one is in the modes of goodness, they cannot enter there. It is not possible. “By force,” if you say, “Yes, we have gone; we are going,” you may say, but we are followers of the sastra. Sastra-caksusah. We see through the sastra. We understand that these men, they are not even rajo-guna, or maybe in rajas-tamo-guna. But where is sattva-guna? Sattva-guna. So through the sastra we can understand that who is who through sastra. Therefore in my poetry, on the strength of sastra, I said that rajas tamo gune era sabai acchanna, vasudeva-katha ruci mahe se prasanna: “Most of the population here is covered by the material modes of ignorance and passion. Absorbed in material life, they think themselves very happy and satisfied; therefore they have no taste for the transcendental message of Vasudeva. So I do not know how they will be able to understand it.”

     Reply
190. Raghubir Das says:

     19. January 2013 at 12:40 pm

     The Moon which is mentioned as heavenly planet is above the Sun ( diameter of the Sun is 865,000 miles) and twice as big as the Sun. However, there are many Moons. Many planets have an orbiting Moon.

     “The higher planetary system begins from the Sun.”
     (Delhi, November 28, 1975)

     “The moon planet is situated 1,600,000’s of miles above the Sun”
     (San Francisco, July 17, 1975)

     “Moon planet is heavenly planet. Heavenly planet.”
     (Bombay, December 28, 1972)

     “This means that Rahu is twice as large as the moon, which is twice as large as the sun. This is the conclusion of the commentator Vijayadhvaja.”
     (5.24.2 purport)

     “This indicates that there are many moons.”
     (Adi-lila 13.5)

     Reply
191. Mahesh Raja says:

     19. January 2013 at 1:29 pm

     740318mw.vrn Conversations
     Prabhupada: That I do not know. The scientists say that it is a blazing fire, sun planet. Fire is generally red color with little yellow. Why it is white? We have no experience of fire, white. So how do they say it is fire? That is my question. (break) …tell me what blue I have seen. Red I have seen. Where is white?
     Guru dasa: (indistinct) the sun is a reflection of the brahmajyoti?
     Prabhupada: That is another. First of all, you answer whether it is fire or something else. (break)
     Satsvarupa: …dew.
     Prabhupada: Where is the moisture? It is clear shine. Where is the moisture? (break) (laughter) It is not fire. It is a brilliant body. It is not fire. (break)
     Satsvarupa: …body of Vivasvan?
     Prabhupada: Whole planet, I mean the population, they’re so bright.
     Satsvarupa: Sometimes in your lectures you explain the living entities can live there because they have bodies of fire.
     Prabhupada: Fiery. Not fire.
     Guru dasa: Fiery.
     Prabhupada: Because there is heat and brightness, therefore they can say fire. Just like, what is called, diamond. Diamond looks like, bright, like this beautiful. But that is not fire. Diamond, real diamond, you keep in dark room; it will be light. But that is not fire.
     Devotee: Effulgent.
     Prabhupada: Yes. Bright. Brightness. (heavy wind noise) (break)
     Devotee: That stars?
     Prabhupada: Stars? They are planets like this planet. Like moon planet, the moon planet. Naksatranam aham sasi. The stars, they are so many moons, not suns. They say “sun.” And we say, “No, it is moon.” Sun is only one. In each universe there is one sun, but there are many planets like moons.
     Tamala Krsna: Reflections.
     Prabhupada: Reflection. We get it from Bhagavad-gita. Naksatranam aham sasi. (heavy wind noise) (break) …due to the sun, reflect.
     Guru dasa: Why does the moon reflect? They say the moon is sandy, but this sand here is not reflecting.
     Prabhupada: That… They are not going to the moon planet. They are going to some other planet, Rahu planet.
     Guru dasa: Rahu?
     Prabhupada: Yes. There are many planets invisible. So there is a Rahu planet which comes in front of the moon planet, and that is called eclipse. So there is a planet rotating. I think they are going to that Rahu planet, not to the moon planet.
     Hamsaduta: How can they make such a mistake?
     Prabhupada: Eh?
     Hamsaduta: How is it that they made such a big mistake?
     Prabhupada: Their whole life is mistake. (laughter) They cannot do anything but mistake. Why you are so much confident about that? Their whole life is simply mistake.
     Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, they see a little fire, and they see that it has heat and light, and so they see a huge thing having heat and light, and so they conclude that that’s also a fire. So if that’s their deductive method, then if they see that whenever there’s intelligence, there must be a person, then why don’t they conclude that behind the universe, there’s so many wonderful things, that there must also be a person?
     Prabhupada: Yes, we say there are persons, combination of fiery persons. Therefore it looks so bright.
     Aksayananda: Is the brightness of a diamond because of the presence of a jiva?
     Prabhupada: Eh?
     Aksayananda: The brightness…? No.
     Prabhupada: Suppose you get a diamond body. Just like glowworm. Glowworm, it has a glowing body. That’s all. But the glowing substance is different from the soul. Owner of the body is different.

     Reply
192. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     19. January 2013 at 1:29 pm

     “How to Calculate the Distance to the Sun and Moon”:

     http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/browse_thread/thread/310f8f5140ac62e9/

     Sadaputa Prabhu has explained to us that the statements in the Bhagavatam
     that the moon is further away than the sun simply means distance away from
     the plain of Bhu-mandala. The plain of Bhu-mandala is the plain of the
     ecliptic, so modern astronomers would agree with these statements.

     Reply
193. Santosh says:

     19. January 2013 at 1:32 pm

     Hare Krsna,
     These explanations seem a bit difficult for me to accept—-why Sunday first and then Monday?
     And also another question is—the moon that Prabhupada talks about, is it the same moon that we see in the sky at night? Raghubir das has writtenin his comment–there are many moons—-so i’m unable to understand this…the photos that all satellites in space show the moon to be very clearly visible, very near to the earth, etc. Even though we may accept that man did not land on the moon, we can see that there are satellites in space, isn’t it? They are helping in communication, right? So I am unable to see how all the photos taken by the satellites are wrong and are created by some cheating scientists..Although the philosophy of Krsna consciousness is beautiful….I’m totally unable to accept this point presented by sastra…
     Please help me to get a firm understanding
     Begging for a reply,
     Santosh

     Reply
194. Raghubir Das says:

     19. January 2013 at 2:09 pm

     Durga is possessed of durga, which means a prison house. When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krishna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga.

     Sri Brahma-samhita 5.44
     by His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

     According explanation above, jivas of this material world are residents of a mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga. Lets say these jivas are in high dudgeon because they want to know how exactly this prison house is constructed?

     Counter question: Let’s say a prison inmate of Tihar Jail – largest jail in India (12,000 inmates), wants to know from Vimla Mehra, chief of Tihar central jail, how exactly this prisonhouse is constructed – construction plan, floor plan, structural design? What Mr. Mehra would reply?

     Agreed there are problems to imagine many moons.

     Saturn Moon
     
     Jupiter Moon
     
     Uranus Moon
     

     Reply
195. Mahesh Raja says:

     19. January 2013 at 2:15 pm

     750622mw.la Conversations
     Bahulasva: …yesterday that Indian gentleman, Dr. Singh? He had become very doubtful when you told him they didn’t go to the moon. He was saying, “Do you think they really didn’t go?” (laughter) He never thought of that before, that they might have just made a show.
     Prabhupada: No. If we believe in our Bhagavata, they have not gone. It is above the sun planet, 1,600,000 miles above. How they can go?
     Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, at night, when we see in the sky that moon, that is the same moon that is above the sun?
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Bahulasva: Yes? So their miscalculations are due to their imperfect senses.
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, I told Madhava dasa in Atlanta that you had said that the sun is actually closer than the moon, and he immediately was able to prove that that is correct. He sat down and he, “Oh…” He was able to prove something by the way they are measuring… They are measuring the distance incorrectly in terms of bending light rays and straight light rays.
     Prabhupada: Oh.
     Brahmananda: Sometimes the moon comes in front of the sun.
     Prabhupada: What is the front?
     Brahmananda: Between the sun and the earth the moon comes.
     Jagannatha-suta: Lunar eclipse.
     Prabhupada: No, no. Eclipse is different, not according to their theory. That planet is called Rahu.
     Devotees: Ah yes.
     Tamala Krsna: It’s not the moon. That’s Rahu.
     Revatinandana: So Rahu covers sometimes the sun and sometimes the moon?
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Bahulasva: This Rahu planet’s invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes?
     Prabhupada: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes.
     Dharmadhyaksa: There’s this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Krsna conscious philosophy.
     Bahulasva: So, Prabhupada, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet.
     Prabhupada: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult.

     Reply
196. Raghubir Das says:

     19. January 2013 at 2:43 pm

     Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, at night, when we see in the sky that moon, that is the same moon that is above the sun?
     Prabhupada: Yes.

     Right, Moon is one, at the same time there are many.

     “This indicates that there are many moons.”
     (Adi-lila 13.5)

     Just like Lord Paramatma is one, at the same time He’s situated in everyone’s heart (=many).
     If someone argues, wait, Lord Paramatma are many different Paramatmas. No, although many, Paramatma is one.

     “That is Paramatma. Paramatma is one, but He is everywhere. That is Paramatma.”
     (July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.)

     Reply
197. Bhakta Hugh says:

     19. January 2013 at 2:47 pm

     SG: “For example when you come and quote to me something like “don’t think nonsense, simply execute what you guru has said” — are you also following that same instruction?”

     First point: I’m not quoting simply for your benefit, this is a public forum and has a worldwide readership. You may think yourself the centre of the universe, let me assure you that others do not share this opinion.
     The following quote demonstrates my motive for writing.

     “Actually, if we are engaged in writing and speaking on behalf of Krishna, this is the best process for advancing in Krishna Consciousness. Such activity forces us to think very clearly on the subject matter in order to speak or write on it to convince others.” (Letter to: Ranadhira — Los Angeles 21 May, 1972)

     Second point: I am fallen, lower than the straw in the street, therefore I think nonsense and fail to execute what Prabhupada has said. However, if you expect me to supply you with details regarding my fallen condition, so that you can launch another ad-hominum tirade. Thus further polluting any satvik qualities this forum still possess. Then frankly speaking; you are barking up the wrong tree!

     …and yes I understand the quotes.

     Next question???

     Reply
198. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     19. January 2013 at 2:47 pm

     Three points to consider about the often misunderstood quote, “The moon is further away than the sun”:

     1. I first met the devotees in Washington D.C. about the time of the Apollo 12 moon landing in November of 1969. They all had spent years with Srila Prabhupada on 2nd Avenue in NYC. They loved Srila Prabhupada very much. He is almost all that they thought about/talked about. They had completely dedicated their lives to serving him 24/7/365. When I asked the devotees about the moon landings, I was told, Srila Prabhupada said, “I do not know very much about astronomy, but my Guru Maharaja: he knows!”

     2. Some sentimental devotees say, “I believe that the moon is further away than the sun because Prabhupada said so!” But they are usually the same devotees who don’t even have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada to follow his oft repeated instruction to take vanaprastha (no more house, no more car, no more sex, no more living with one’s wife, no more mowing grass, no more shoveling snow, etc.) at age 50! How can we take them seriously?

     3. No one in the history of the world has ever succeeded in predicting an eclipse of the sun or the moon by assuming that the moon is further away than the sun. It’s not possible!

     Reply
199. Raghubir Das says:

     19. January 2013 at 3:22 pm

     
     Our Moon can be seen with a telescope. This would not be possible at a distance of 95 or 93 million miles away.

     Two Ekadashis occur in one month according to positions of the Moon. Says, our Moon orbits around the Earth once per month. In comparison, Earth orbiting the Sun takes one year.

     Reply
200. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     19. January 2013 at 4:09 pm

     Raghubir Das says: Two Ekadashis occur in one month according to positions of the moon. Says, Moon orbits around the Earth once per month. In comparison to Earth orbiting the Sun takes one year.

     Yes. The moon orbits the earth in approximately 28 days.

     All orbiting bodies must obey Kepler’s 3 laws of planetary motion. Please, therefore, try the following:

     1. Go to http://www.1728.org/kepler3a.htm

     2. Select “Mass.”

     3. Enter 94600000 miles for the “Orbital Radius.” (Srila Prabhupada sometimes quotes the scientist’s figure of 93 million miles as the actual distance to the sun.)

     4. Enter 28 days for the “Time.”

     5. Click the “CALCULATE” button.

     The result is that in order for the above data to be correct, the moon would have to be 179 times as massive as the sun, which means that both the sun and the earth would have to be orbiting around the super massive moon! Obviously, this is not the case!

     Reply
201. Mahesh Raja says:

     19. January 2013 at 6:18 pm

     Philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONESS and DIFFERENCE: Stars are LIKE the MOON also refered to as MOONS:

     760720mw.ny Conversations
     Gurudasa: You said one who had qualification could get to the actual moon planet.
     Prabhupada: MOON IS ONE. There are not so many moons. Moon is one. You can go to the moon. By ritualistic ceremony you can get there ten thousands of years life and enjoy. That is the heavenly planet.

     Note: ALL the stars are LIKE THE MOON Among the stars, I am the moon.” (Bg. 10.21) All the stars ARE LIKE THE MOON. Western astronomers consider the stars to be suns, but Vedic astronomers, following the Vedic scriptures, consider them moons.

     Adi 13.5 T The Advent of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
     jaya sri-caitanyacandrera bhakta candra-gana
     sabara prema jyotsnaya ujjvala tri-bhuvana

     SYNONYMS
     jaya–all glories; sri-caitanya–of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu; candrera–who is as bright as the moon; bhakta–devotees; candra-gana–other moons; sabara–of all of them; prema-jyotsnaya–by the full light of love of Godhead; ujjvala–bright; tri-bhuvana–all the three worlds.

     TRANSLATION
     All glories to the moons who are devotees of the principal moon, Lord Caitanyacandra! Their bright moonshine illuminates the entire universe.

     PURPORT
     In this verse we find the moon described as candra-gana, which is plural in number. This indicates that there are many moons. In the Bhagavad-gita the Lord says, naksatranam aham sasi: “Among the stars, I am the moon.” (Bg. 10.21) All the stars ARE LIKE THE MOON. Western astronomers consider the stars to be suns, but Vedic astronomers, following the Vedic scriptures, CONSIDER THEM MOONS. The sun has the ability to shine powerfully, and the moons reflect the sunshine and therefore look brilliant. In Caitanya-caritamrta Krsna is described to be like the sun. The supreme powerful is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, or Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and His devotees are also bright and illuminating because they reflect the supreme sun. The Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 22.31) states:

     krsna—-surya-sama; maya haya andhakara
     yahan krsna, tahan nahi mayara adhikara

     “Krsna is bright like the sun. As soon as the sun appears, there is no question of darkness or nescience.” Similarly, this verse also describes that by the illumination of all the moons, brightened by the reflection of the Krsna sun, or by the grace of all the devotees of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the entire world will be illuminated, despite the darkness of Kali-yuga. Only the devotees of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu can dissipate the darkness of Kali-yuga, the ignorance of the population of this age. No one else can do so. We therefore wish that all the devotees of the Krsna consciousness movement may reflect the supreme sun and thus dissipate the darkness of the entire world.

     Reply
202. Puranjana dasa says:

     19. January 2013 at 6:30 pm

     Rocana says the guru is post-samadhi, posthumous and post mortem etc., except, where does Srila Prabhupada use those terms for the guru? Here is another disciple of Rocana:

     Torben says we need to quote only Srila Prabhupada, ok where does Srila Prabhupada use Torben’s term “post-samadhi diksha,” that is not found in anything he ever wrote? Torben is quoting the GBC’s gurus, not Srila Prabhupada. Torben’s is quoting the GBC gurus ideas — post samadhi guru, post mortem guru, posthumous guru, and so on, these are terms used by people like Jayadvaita, swami, Torben’s original guru Harikesha and so on.

     So Torben is quoting folks like Harikesha, who now says the Hare Krishna are basically all fools for worshiping a bogus religion? So yes, Torben has proved only that he is still one of them, he is quoting them.

     Srila Prabhupada says he will live forever in his books, the guru is eternal and so on, he never says the guru is post mortem (dead). This is great, Torben is going to go into a Christian Church to tell them they are wasting their time worshiping a post mortem dead body of Jesus? The followers of Jesus will call him a fool and an atheist, and that he is still a disciple of the GBCs gurus because he is quoting them still. Anyway this is great Torben is the founder father of the worship of the post mortem dead body idea, then he wonders why no one is joining his Church? ys pd

     Reply
203. mark says:

     19. January 2013 at 8:34 pm

     SG wrote: “If ritviks want to argue on the basis of sastra, then don’t use the July’9 1977 letter to claim that Srila Prabhupada wanted the ritvik initiation to continue after his departure and that the initiated will become his disciples. The ritviks must decide. If the ritviks want to use Srila Prabhupada’s name and his July 9th letter to claim he said so then show us where it is stated in that letter. Otherwise it is simply cheating.”

     The premise of SG’s statement is an assumption to which he gives no proof.

     The premise is that Sastra prohibits an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through representatives when after he has departed from his body.

     What do we know about Sastra and the subject at all? Lets go step by step.

     – Does Sastra prohibit an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through representatives? We know that answer is no, or else Srila Prabhupada would not have done it.

     Does Sastra forbid an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through those same representatives if he cannot be present at the ceremony? No.

     Does Sastra forbid an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through those same representatives if he does not participate in any stage of the initiation at all? NO.

     Does sastra prohibit an Acarya from ordering formal initiations be conducted through reps if he cannot present at the ceremony because he is outside his body dreaming at the time? No

     Does Sastra forbid an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through representatives if he cannot be present at the ceremony because he is on Mars preaching at the time? Haven’t seen proof of that either.

     Does Sastra forbid an Acarya from conducting formal initiations through representatives after the Acarya departs from his body permanently?

     Haven’t seen such proof, and SG did not provide any proof. Should we just take his word for it?

     I’ll answer that last question with another question

     Does Sastra forbid us from accepting the conclusions of a mental master, I mean, speculator who does not quote Sastra?

     YES.

     The July 9th letter is crystal clear and consistent with the system that had been built up for years, consistent with subsequent letters telling his men to continue to be ritvik and act on his behalf, consistent with the last will and testament, and there is nothing in Sastra that prohibits us from continuing to use it.

     There is a small example in Sastra given to us by a minor character in Krishna’s lila to show how someone who is probably by all accounts CAPABLE of conducting a formal initiation, who DID NOT because of a little something missing. His Guru’s order.

     CC Antya 7.150: Vallabha Bhaṭṭa wanted to be initiated by Gadādhara Paṇḍita, but Gadādhara Paṇḍita refused, saying, “The work of acting as a spiritual master is not possible for me.

     151: “I am completely dependent. My Lord is Gauracandra, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. I cannot do anything independently, without His order.

     So who is the cheater?

     Be simple. Not simple minded.

     Reply
204. SG says:

     20. January 2013 at 3:46 am

     Bhakta Hugh says:
     19. January 2013 at 2:47 pm

     BH — First point: I’m not quoting simply for your benefit, this is a public forum and has a worldwide readership. You may think yourself the centre of the universe, let me assure you that others do not share this opinion.

     SG — Yes, i agree your quote was also for the benefit of the worldwide readership. But you also adressed the quote to me under SG hence me asking you about it.

     BH — You may think yourself the centre of the universe, let me assure you that others do not share this opinion.

     SG — This is what you assume. Let it be. But let me assure you those around me do not share the same opinion.

     BH — Second point: I am fallen, lower than the straw in the street, therefore I think nonsense and fail to execute what Prabhupada has said.

     SG — In that case my most sincere humble prostrated obeisances to you for I am that street.

     BH — However, if you expect me to supply you with details regarding my fallen condition.

     SG — Never asked for it.

     BH — so that you can launch another ad-hominum tirade. Thus further polluting any satvik qualities this forum still possess.

     SG — Sorry, but it didn’t even cross my mind and was never the intention. If you wish i can leave this forum and i wish to thank the moderator of this forum for allowing to say my piece. He has been most kind. Again i am sorry, but i am not going to compromise on the principles of truth, speaking and agreeing truthfully, ad-hominum tirade or not. Ritvik initiation after Srila Prabhupada departure is bogus.

     BH — Then frankly speaking; you are barking up the wrong tree!

     SG — Please, to me you were never never the “wrong tree”.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
205. Puranjana dasa says:

     20. January 2013 at 4:32 am

     OK except the living guru program is falling apart, our program is expanding, do the math. We will win and are winning. ys pd

     Reply
206. Santosh says:

     20. January 2013 at 6:27 am

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
     19. January 2013 at 4:09 pm
     Raghubir Das says: Two Ekadashis occur in one month according to positions of the moon. Says, Moon orbits around the Earth once per month. In comparison to Earth orbiting the Sun takes one year.

     Yes. The moon orbits the earth in approximately 28 days.

     All orbiting bodies must obey Kepler’s 3 laws of planetary motion. Please, therefore, try the following:

     1. Go to http://www.1728.org/kepler3a.htm

     2. Select “Mass.”

     3. Enter 94600000 miles for the “Orbital Radius.” (Srila Prabhupada sometimes quotes the scientist’s figure of 93 million miles as the actual distance to the sun.)

     4. Enter 28 days for the “Time.”

     5. Click the “CALCULATE” button.

     The result is that in order for the above data to be correct, the moon would have to be 179 times as massive as the sun, which means that both the sun and the earth would have to be orbiting around the super massive moon! Obviously, this is not the case!

     I do not undestand by this reply whether Pratyosa Prabhu is saying that Prabhupada is right or wrong?
     When Prabhupada simply says that the sun is nearer to the earth than the moon, then it means the moon we see in the sky, right? Why is there so much speculation about which moon? But it is very common observation that this moon is much, much nearer to us than the sun……

     Dear Prabhupadanugas,

     I do not at all understand this claim of the Bhagavatam and I am unable to help doubting it…If I am not able to have faith in the descriptions of the cosmic world, (which is all material),then how can I accept the descriptions of Krsna’s pastimes (which are spiritual, beyong the material world)to be true…..Srila Vyasadeva’s senses were not at all defective, right?

     I beg you to make me understand somehow or the other. For about 3 years, I have always thought of my life in terms of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings…..I have been chanting and studying his books for about 3 years…These kinds of fundamental doubts about the genuinety of the Srimad Bhagavatam puts me in deep trouble..

     I humbly ask you to give me more confidence in the teachings of Prabhupada, especially when he refutes and dismisses the claims of modern science (my main doubt now is about the moon and the sun).

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
207. Santosh says:

     20. January 2013 at 7:14 am

     Please clear my doubt…..I request

     Reply
208. Santosh says:

     20. January 2013 at 12:07 pm

     I don’t want to revert to my earlier atheistic life by doubting Prabhupada. So many people, including devotees are in doubt because of Prabhupada saying “the sun is closer than the moon”, (to my horror people are mocking at Prabhupada) although the Bhagavatam says that the moon is closer………Why was Prabhupada saying differently from the scripture, I do not understand…..I have got bad thoughts running in my mind that Prabhupada might have made a mistake..
     see, http://www.indiadivine.org/showthread.php?t=285069

     Please help this helpless soul….whatever hopes I have from my life…I is only because of faith in Srila Prabhupada……I hope I never lose it. I really need help and support from the faithful followers of Prabhupada.

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
209. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     20. January 2013 at 1:29 pm

     Dear Santosh Prabhu, please read Sadaputa Prabhu’s books. Then all of your questions will be answered. Like I said before,

     Sadaputa Prabhu has explained to us that the statements in the Bhagavatam that the moon is further away than the sun simply means distance away from the plane of Bhu-mandala. The plane of Bhu-mandala is the plane of the ecliptic [the plane of the earth’s orbit around the sun], so modern astronomers would agree with these statements.

     Therefore, there is actually no contradiction.

     Reply
210. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     20. January 2013 at 1:58 pm

     Dear Santosh

     We are presently in this material world where everything is temporary, illusory and perishable.
     But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, by the spell of this illusory energy we consider ourselves in terms of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian, or brahmana. Hindu, Muslim, etc.

     In Bhagavad-gita Krishna informs us of the original dharma and asks us to give up all kinds of religious principles. The real dharma is surrender unto Him. The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world.
     So there is nothing to doubt, we have got doubts that “whether Krishna consciousness can make me actually advance?”

     We have got doubts. So long we have got doubts, the Krishna consciousness is not progressing. We should clear all doubts. That is, you have got, everyone has got right to clear doubts. If we think Krishna as ordinary man, then that is doubt.

     Therefore unless we hear about Krishna perfectly, then we cannot surrender. Therefore hearing is very essential. All attack of maya finished. ys rrdd

     Prabhupada: Therefore you are in doubt. If you want to be doubtless, then you accept Krishna.
     (July 10, 1973, London)

     Reply
211. mark says:

     20. January 2013 at 5:24 pm

     This moon debate is not in line with the topic of this thread.

     Santosh wrote:

     Please help this helpless soul….whatever hopes I have from my life…I is only because of faith in Srila Prabhupada……I hope I never lose it. I really need help and support from the faithful followers of Prabhupada.

     Forgive me but this is hard to believe. You are constantly overly melodramatic making statements like this, but as soon as there is the slightest contradiction on some insignificant matter you claim that you are going to lose faith.

     I think you are somebody playing a role here, and I am not falling for it.

     Reply
212. Puranjana dasa says:

     20. January 2013 at 6:26 pm

     Yes, I recall when Krishna dasa once challenged Srila Prabhupada about his statement that little worms come out and eat our teeth at night, which causes tooth decay. He said this is nonsense, there are no such worms. Of course some bacteria, when magnified ten thousand times, looks exactly like a little worm.

     Not long after that, Krishna dasa began to express doubts if Krishna was real and so on, and he left ISKCON. In sum, the doubters will always have doubts, which is why Srila Prabhupada said the doubting souls cannot progress in spiritual life. Ahhh, yep I’d like to worship God, that is, if He even exists, ok, you are not on the A-list for going back to Him.

     This is the same trouble we are having with the GBC / Bhakti Vikas swami / Rocana/ George program, they have severe doubts — whether we can worship a “departed pure devotee.” And exactly what program do they support instead? Bhakti Vikas swami’s program is now worshiping a “departed” homosexual pedophile who was buried in a “samadhi” in the holy land of Vrndavana, so they “have faith” in a process of worship of departed homosexual pedophiles, but no faith in the process of worship of departed pure devotees? They are not only faithless, they have faith in the wrong process.

     Anyway, yes, Santosh you are always having doubts, that means you are not going anywhere spiritually since: the first step is sraddha, faithfulness. Your sradhha seems to be barely alive, if not dead. That is unfortunate, but unless you cure that, you will have trouble the whole time, and according to Srila Prabhupada, the faithless have all kinds of troubles not only in this life, but also the next as well. ys pd

     Reply
213. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     20. January 2013 at 7:42 pm

     Puranjana Prabhu is in charge of the Prabhupadanuga tabloid news department. Similarly, Bhakta Mark Prabhu is in charge of the Prabhupadanuga “watch dog” department. In both cases, they get to use their amazing talents in Krishna’s service.

     Whenever Srila Prabhupada’s disciples would tell Satsvarupa’s Srila Prabhupada Lilamrita researchers about a supernatural experience that they had with Srila Prabhupada, it would get filtered out of the Lilamrita. I have personal experience of this!

     Why? Could it be that the criminals who tried to take Srila Prabhupada’s place in 1978 were trying to minimize Srila Prabhupada out of enviousness? Were they trying to minimize Srila Prabhupada so that they could more easily compete with/replace him? I think that the answer to both of these questions is “Yes,” and that the modern-day criminal ISKCON leaders are still trying to minimize Srila Prabhupada in many subtle ways in order to try to more easily compete with/replace him.

     When I first moved into the Detroit temple in May of 1970, the temple president, his wife and I were the only one’s who had even seen Srila Prabhupada in person. Most of the devotees there had the sentimental attitude that “Srila Prabhupada knows everything.” They convinced me that this was the case, so when I first asked Srila Prabhupada a question about which tape recorder I should purchase to record him, I was a little taken aback when his immediate reply was, “I do not know!” (http://causelessmercy.com/t/?P=710720RC.NY&TP=4324)

     The point is that even when we had the opportunity to ask questions of Srila Prabhupada face-to-face, we still had to use our own intelligence when it came to figuring out how best to serve him. As time went on, it became more and more obvious to me that this is what pleases him the most: using our own intelligence to figure out new and better ways to serve him. This is Krishna’s mercy upon us because the same is true today that was true then: We get to use all of our God-given talents in Krishna’s service!

     Reply
214. Mahesh Raja says:

     20. January 2013 at 9:48 pm

     74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
     In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

     Los Angeles, California 90034730513mw.la Conversations
     Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
     Prabhupada: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
     Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in…
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
     Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     70-01-24. Letter: Ranadhira
     Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice–in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

     70-02-14.Sac Letter: Sacisuta
     If you simply chant your rounds daily as prescribed and stick strictly to the rules and regulations, all these questions will automatically be answered by Krsna as Supersoul. You may refer in this connection to Bhagavad gita, (10:10), “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” and (10:11), “Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” This process of understanding by devotional service is essential for developing Krsna Consciousness and you all must follow this program assiduously.

     72-02-19. Letter: Upendra
     (8) In other words, if you are sincere to serve continuously and always chanting, all such questions become answered automatically. I never asked my Spiritual Master one question except one: “How shall I serve you?” So in this way, kindly inform the others that I may be relieved to give you so many more nice books–that is my real desire.

     72-03-07.Ani Letter: Aniruddha
     Thank you very much for serving Krishna in this way, and if you go on sincerely serving like this, chanting, and following the regulative principles strictly, all your questions will be answered by Krishna automatically.

     SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
     The potency of transcendental sound is NEVER minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.

     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, THAT IS LIVING.

     72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
     Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.

     73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
     Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.

     Reply
215. Santosh says:

     21. January 2013 at 8:44 am

     Hare Krsna,
     Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
     Honestly, I am saying that my intention is not to divert the discussion you are carrying out.I always feel that I have faith in Prabhupada’s words,,but when some thought like this moon issue suddenly strikes my mind,I lose all composure,however great I consider myself..Even small and insignificant doubts hamper my sadhana,that is my weakness..But I am very happy to come across Prabhupadanugas website,where people are really kiind and willing to help someone come to Prabhupada.
     As for myself,my doubts have a variety of natures….sometimes on the guru issue,sometimes on science,sometimes on meanings of verses,etc…I request you to please tolerate me since I want to cross over the sanskayatma position.
     On the moon issue,my previous question was…..the Bhagavatam says actually that the moon is closer,and I’m sure Prabhupada must have commented on this is His purports…..but then, why does He say the opposite in the conversations in which He says that “man landing on the moon” is a bogus propaganda?
     I request you to once read http://www.indiadivine.org/showthread.php?t=285069
     Was Prabhupada saying the opposite(that is sun is closer) just to emphasize the fact that man did not land on the moon?This is my question.
     I have a hope that interacting with you will clear my doubts because you are all faithful.Around me I have no such faithful association…and that’s why I pour all my doubts on this site…..Please forgive me for my melodramatic comments….I am actually very faithless…Although i sometimes speak big big things…
     I hope you have understood my doubt…I will be extremely relieved if you are willing to not abandon me…

     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply
216. Raghubir Das says:

     21. January 2013 at 8:45 am

     Right, Moon issue is not in line with this topic.
     Just in case you ever visit Temple of Vedic Planetarium make sure that Moon is of this size as stated by Srila Prabhupada.

     “This means that Rahu is twice as large as the moon, which is twice as large as the sun. This is the conclusion of the commentator Vijayadhvaja.”
     (5.24.2 purport)

     

     Reply
217. Santosh says:

     22. January 2013 at 8:15 am

     Prabhu,where is this Temple of Vedic Planetarium and does it actually show the size of the moon as you’ve shown it here?I am still not convinced about this moon issue.Since the moon issue is not in line with this discussion, can you please tell me a way in which this issue can be solved,ie.how can I discuss the moon issue so as to be convinced?Can anyone of you Prabhupadanugas convince me of this issue?Please help me to move forward in Krsna Consciousness.
     Begging for a reply,
     Your servant,
     Santosh

     Reply