By Mahesh Raja Das
Nimai Pandit Das: My desire is to come to understand fully, if it is the Truth (I am keeping the possibility open that it may not be), and to explore the possibility that the process of Diksha is explained so comprehensively, THAT THERE CAN BE NO QUESTION TO ACCEPT THAT ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THAT DIKSHA GURU, OF ALL OURS. AND THAT AS A SIDE ISSUE JULY 9TH LETTER is of course, so natural. I think to try to prove/disaprove the July 9th letter from the angle of past “ritvik” practices is superficial and a play in logic by both sides.
Mahesh : VERY EASY. Lets consider the following facts:
1)WHY did Srila Prabhupada ARRANGE to have his OWN murti in ALL the temples in ISKCON for worshiping during Guru Puja UNLESS he was GIVER OF the DIVYA Jnana hrdaya prakasito HE GIVES DIVYA JNANA (DIKSA)
ONLY a MAHABHAGAVATA is accepted as Worshipable Diksa Guru as per Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 24.330. Srila Prabhuapada is THE ACARYA of ISKCON.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
2)Srila Prabhupada put it DELIBERATELY in all his books FOUNDER-ACARYA. Srila Prabhupada did NOT say he was only ISKCON founder. There is HYPHEN in between the words Founder AND Acarya which indicates HE IS ALSO ITS CURRENT ACARYA.
3)There is ALSO the FACT that ONLY INITIATED DISCIPLE will be Director.
This means HE wanted to REMAIN the INITIATOR for the EXISTENCE of the society:
Other WILL Srila Prabhupada’s Will
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is MY INITIATED DISCIPLE following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) exeutive directors acting at one time.
This means HE wanted to REMAIN the INITIATOR for the EXISTENCE of the society:
Other WILL Srila Prabhupada’s Will
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is MY INITIATED DISCIPLE following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) exeutive directors acting at one time.
4) 75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
5) Disciple belongs to whoever gives DISCIPLINE TO him: In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
6)Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED Srila Prabhupada is the LAST name in Disciplic Succession of ACARYAS:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge BY ACCEPTING THE ACARYA. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge BY ACCEPTING THE ACARYA. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
68-02-13. Letter: Upendra
My Guru Maharaja was in the 10th generation from Lord Caitanya. We are 11th from Lord Caitanya. The disciplic sucession is as follows: 1. Sri Krishna, 2. Brahma, 3. Narada, 4. Vyasa, 5. Madhva, 6. Padmanabha, 7. Nrihari, 8. Madhava, 9. Akshobhya, 10. Jayatirtha, 11. Jnanasindhu, 12. Purusottama, 13. Vidyanidhi, 14. Rajendra, 15. Jayadharma, 16. Purusottama, 17. Vyasatirtha, 18. Laksmipati, 19. Madhavendra Puri, 20. Isvara Puri (Advaita, Nityananda) 21. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, 22. (Svarupa, Sanatana) Rupa, 23.(Jiva) Raghunath, 24. Krishna dasa, 25. Narottama, 26. Visvanatha, 27. (Baladeva.) Jagannatha, 28. (Bhaktivinode) Gaura-kisora, 29. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Sri Barshabhanavidayitadas, 30. SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA.
My Guru Maharaja was in the 10th generation from Lord Caitanya. We are 11th from Lord Caitanya. The disciplic sucession is as follows: 1. Sri Krishna, 2. Brahma, 3. Narada, 4. Vyasa, 5. Madhva, 6. Padmanabha, 7. Nrihari, 8. Madhava, 9. Akshobhya, 10. Jayatirtha, 11. Jnanasindhu, 12. Purusottama, 13. Vidyanidhi, 14. Rajendra, 15. Jayadharma, 16. Purusottama, 17. Vyasatirtha, 18. Laksmipati, 19. Madhavendra Puri, 20. Isvara Puri (Advaita, Nityananda) 21. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, 22. (Svarupa, Sanatana) Rupa, 23.(Jiva) Raghunath, 24. Krishna dasa, 25. Narottama, 26. Visvanatha, 27. (Baladeva.) Jagannatha, 28. (Bhaktivinode) Gaura-kisora, 29. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Sri Barshabhanavidayitadas, 30. SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA.
7)Note: It is ONLY Srila Prabhupada that fulfills the WORLD ACARYA position:
Madhya 25.9 How All the Residents of Varanasi Became Vaisnavas
“In Dvapara-yuga, devotees of Lord Visnu and Krsna rendered devotional service according to the principles of pancaratrika. In this Age of Kali, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped simply by the chanting of His holy names.» Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: “Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, NO HUMAN BEING CAN BECOME THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE WHOLE WORLD. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna’s effulgence throughout the world. Such an acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna-that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna’s potency. Such a personality is krsnalingita-vigraha-that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. HE IS THE GURU OR SPIRITUAL MASTER FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD, A DEVOTEE ON THE TOPMOST PLATFORM, THE MAHA-BHAGAVATA STAGE, AND A PARAMAHAMSA-THAKURA, A SPIRITUAL FORM ONLY FIT TO BE ADDRESSED AS PARAMAHAMSA OR THAKURA.”
Madhya 25.9 How All the Residents of Varanasi Became Vaisnavas
“In Dvapara-yuga, devotees of Lord Visnu and Krsna rendered devotional service according to the principles of pancaratrika. In this Age of Kali, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped simply by the chanting of His holy names.» Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura then comments: “Without being empowered by the direct potency of Lord Krsna to fulfill His desire and without being specifically favored by the Lord, NO HUMAN BEING CAN BECOME THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE WHOLE WORLD. He certainly cannot succeed by mental concoction, which is not meant for devotees or religious people. Only an empowered personality can distribute the holy name of the Lord and enjoin all fallen souls to worship Krsna. By distributing the holy name of the Lord, he cleanses the hearts of the most fallen people; therefore he extinguishes the blazing fire of the material world. Not only that, he broadcasts the shining brightness of Krsna’s effulgence throughout the world. Such an acarya, or spiritual master, should be considered nondifferent from Krsna-that is, he should be considered the incarnation of Lord Krsna’s potency. Such a personality is krsnalingita-vigraha-that is, he is always embraced by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. Such a person is above the considerations of the varnasrama institution. HE IS THE GURU OR SPIRITUAL MASTER FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD, A DEVOTEE ON THE TOPMOST PLATFORM, THE MAHA-BHAGAVATA STAGE, AND A PARAMAHAMSA-THAKURA, A SPIRITUAL FORM ONLY FIT TO BE ADDRESSED AS PARAMAHAMSA OR THAKURA.”
8)Note: ONLY Srila Prabhupada will lay claim to be PROMINENT ACARYA to be FOLLOWED because of his books,cds,tapes, disciples, temples so extensive over the world for FUTURE generations OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS:
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
9)Note: the Hare Krsna mantra is PURE DEVOTEE Srila Prabhupada’s Property to give and July 9th 1977 ORDER is simply discharge MANAGEMENT DUTY of giving conditioned souls Ritviks the privilege OF SERVICE to give Holy Name on BEHALF of PURE devotee Srila Prabhupada. The holy name is NOT conditioned souls property this is WHY it is given ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada:
SB 7.9.42 P Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura also sings, tumi ta’ thakura, tomara kukura, baliya janaha more: “O my Lord, O Vaisnava, please consider me your dog.” One must become the dog of a Vaisnava, A PURE DEVOTEE, FOR A PURE DEVOTEE CAN DELIVER KRSNA WITHOUT DIFFICULTY. KRSNA SE TOMARA, KRSNA DITE PARA. KRSNA IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS PURE DEVOTEE, AND IF WE TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE CAN DELIVER KRSNA VERY EASILY.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura also sings, tumi ta’ thakura, tomara kukura, baliya janaha more: “O my Lord, O Vaisnava, please consider me your dog.” One must become the dog of a Vaisnava, A PURE DEVOTEE, FOR A PURE DEVOTEE CAN DELIVER KRSNA WITHOUT DIFFICULTY. KRSNA SE TOMARA, KRSNA DITE PARA. KRSNA IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS PURE DEVOTEE, AND IF WE TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE CAN DELIVER KRSNA VERY EASILY.
10)Note: the Ritvik System is SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT so the issue of HOLY NAME to be given on BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the PURE devotee MUST continue as per Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER:
Other WILL Srila Prabhupada’s Will
2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. THE SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT WILL CONTINUE AS IT IS NOW AND THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY CHANGE.
Other WILL Srila Prabhupada’s Will
2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three executive directors. THE SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT WILL CONTINUE AS IT IS NOW AND THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY CHANGE.
11)Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one. Holy Name is given ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada by Ritvik REPRESENTATIVES:
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. THERE MAY BE MANY SPIRITUAL MASTERS WHO INSTRUCT, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. THERE MAY BE MANY SPIRITUAL MASTERS WHO INSTRUCT, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
12)Note: ONLY the Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada is to be ACCEPTED as Diksa Guru otherwise it is 3rd OFFENSE in chanting:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))
Diksa Process:
13)Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE is the Ritvik Representative as per July 9th 1977 Order Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. IN OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT ONE MUST BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP THE FOUR PILLARS OF SINFUL LIFE-ILLICIT SEX, MEAT-EATING, INTOXICATION AND GAMBLING. IN WESTERN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY, WE FIRST OBSERVE WHETHER A POTENTIAL DISCIPLE IS PREPARED TO FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. THEN HE IS GIVEN THE NAME OF A VAISNAVA SERVANT AND INITIATED TO CHANT THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, AT LEAST SIXTEEN ROUNDS DAILY. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. HE IS THEN RECOMMENDED FOR A SECOND INITIATION, DURING WHICH A SACRED THREAD IS OFFERED AND THE DISCIPLE IS ACCEPTED AS A BONA FIDE BRAHMANA.
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. IN OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT ONE MUST BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP THE FOUR PILLARS OF SINFUL LIFE-ILLICIT SEX, MEAT-EATING, INTOXICATION AND GAMBLING. IN WESTERN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY, WE FIRST OBSERVE WHETHER A POTENTIAL DISCIPLE IS PREPARED TO FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. THEN HE IS GIVEN THE NAME OF A VAISNAVA SERVANT AND INITIATED TO CHANT THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, AT LEAST SIXTEEN ROUNDS DAILY. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. HE IS THEN RECOMMENDED FOR A SECOND INITIATION, DURING WHICH A SACRED THREAD IS OFFERED AND THE DISCIPLE IS ACCEPTED AS A BONA FIDE BRAHMANA.
Note: Ritvik can be replaced if he has a falldown:
14)770528me.vrn Conversations
Tamala Krsna: Of course, IF SOMEONE HAS A FALLDOWN, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down…
Prabhupada: HE SHOULD BE REPLACED.
Tamala Krsna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious falldown, not some minor discrepancy.
Prabhupada: THEY MUST BE ALL IDEAL ACARYA-LIKE. IN THE BEGINNING WE HAVE DONE FOR WORKING. Now we should be very cautious. ANYONE WHO IS DEVIATING, HE CAN BE REPLACED.
Tamala Krsna: Of course, IF SOMEONE HAS A FALLDOWN, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down…
Prabhupada: HE SHOULD BE REPLACED.
Tamala Krsna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious falldown, not some minor discrepancy.
Prabhupada: THEY MUST BE ALL IDEAL ACARYA-LIKE. IN THE BEGINNING WE HAVE DONE FOR WORKING. Now we should be very cautious. ANYONE WHO IS DEVIATING, HE CAN BE REPLACED.
15)Note: the FORMALITY INITIATION of giving Holy Name on Behalf of Srila Prabhupada and fire sacrifice are just SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT issues: That is not very important thing
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
16)Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.
Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap. This is why In Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada we sing Janme janme prabhu sei:
760805BG.PAR Lectures
Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.
Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.
Note: Srila Prabhupada is WITH US TO GUIDE US through difficult journey of transmigration cycle to attaining Back to Godhead IF we follow him. Bilvamangal Thakura’s Spiritual master came thru a prostitute to deliver him so Srila Prabhupada is also SO POWERFUL to help us:
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA
Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA
SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE
TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.
Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.
Note: Srila Prabhupada initiates at Madhyama Adhikari (spiritual initiation see NOI 5) stage your svarupa(constitutional position) is understood and karma is burned off:
Bg 4.37 P Transcendental Knowledge
Perfect knowledge of self and Superself and of their relationship is compared herein to fire. This fire not only burns up all reactions to impious activities, but also all reactions to pious activities, turning them to ashes. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. When one is in complete knowledge, all reactions, both a priori and a posteriori, are consumed. In the Vedas it is stated, ubhe uhaivaisa ete taraty amrtah sadhv-asadhuni: “One overcomes both the pious and impious interactions of work.”
Bg 4.37 P Transcendental Knowledge
Perfect knowledge of self and Superself and of their relationship is compared herein to fire. This fire not only burns up all reactions to impious activities, but also all reactions to pious activities, turning them to ashes. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. When one is in complete knowledge, all reactions, both a priori and a posteriori, are consumed. In the Vedas it is stated, ubhe uhaivaisa ete taraty amrtah sadhv-asadhuni: “One overcomes both the pious and impious interactions of work.”
Note: Transcendental knowledge your (constitutional position) svarupa is known reactions of Karma burned off:
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“DIKSA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH ONE CAN AWAKEN HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“DIKSA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH ONE CAN AWAKEN HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
Antya 4.192 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
Antya 4.194P Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna.
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
Antya 4.194P Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna.
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service.
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service.
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Dear Mahesha
Thanks as usual for your service. Your compilation of quotes here strongly supports the ritvik system.
I have 2 issues I would like to discuss with you.
1. I have noticed over the years that you assert a theme that I will summarize as follows.
The portion of the process of Diksa wherein transmission of direct knowledge of the nature of Lord Krsna in 4 features is ACTUALLY realized at the stage of practice when one becomes a Madhyama adhikari or intermediate devotee.
You seem to use various quotes to support this in an effort to show that only someone of the status of Srila Prabhupada can initiate a BONA FIDE Diksa process which can transfer such knowledge of Krsna into the heart of an aspiring neophyte. Below I will reproduce the relevant quotes from your latest article.
1. Note: Srila Prabhupada initiates at Madhyama Adhikari (spiritual initiation see NOI 5) stage your svarupa(constitutional position) is understood and karma is burned off:
2. When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
3. Note: Srila Prabhupada initiates at Madhyama Adhikari (spiritual initiation see NOI 5) stage your svarupa(constitutional position) is understood and karma is burned off:
4. NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service.
—————————————————————————————
My comment: This particular line of support does not take into consideration pure neophytes, how they recieve Divya Jnana, the extent of what they do and do not know of the Lord, and their level of real engagment in the service of the Spiritual Master. It is a small point but I think you could make your overall point that Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru for Iskcon without straying into realms that hold ambiguity and leave your presentation open to attack.
Secondly, I was wondering in particular how you deal with the following portion of the May 28th conversation when opponents bring it up.
** Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupāda: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple. **
Especially considering there is ample use of the concept of grand disciples and grand spiritual masters as I will reproduce below.
All these learned scholars, in their turn, rendered their entrusted Vedas unto their many disciples, grand-disciples and great grand-disciples, and thus the respective branches of the followers of the Vedas came into being. SB 1.4.23 translation.
The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of ācāryas. SB 3.29.17 : PURPORT
You’ll be surprised to know that my grand-spiritual master, my spiritual master’s spiritual master, he was illiterate. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.4 — Los Angeles, January 12, 1968
This Mādhavendra Purī was the grand-spiritual master of Lord Caitanya. Mādhavendra Purī’s disciple Īśvara Purī, and Īśvara Purī was accepted as spiritual master of Lord Caitanya.
Bhagavad-gita 2.46-62 — Los Angeles, December 16, 1968
Regarding your questions are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them?—the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system.
Letter to: Mahananda — Los Angeles 27 April, 1970
You are all helping me by abiding the orders of my Spiritual Master, His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami maharaj and He’ll be pleased upon you who are His grand spiritual children.
Letter to: Krsna Devi — Gorakhpur 16 February, 1971
—————————————————————————-
Thanks for your time Mahesha Prabhu
ys
Mark
Mark Prabhu wrote:
My comment: This particular line of support does not take into consideration pure neophytes, how they recieve Divya Jnana, the extent of what they do and do not know of the Lord, and their level of real engagment in the service of the Spiritual Master. It is a small point but I think you could make your overall point that Srila Prabhupada is the Diksa Guru for Iskcon without straying into realms that hold ambiguity and leave your presentation open to attack.
Mahesh:
My presentation is to show that the process of Diksa does NOT END with just the FORMALITY of fire sacrifice and name giving ceremony as THIS is EXACTLY what Rocana,ISKCON bogus gurus and followers etc are doing. To these sort of people THEY ONLY SEE FORMALITY as the ONLY thing. THIS is WHERE the ALL the problem is in ISKCON today because the devotees have been MISLEAD that Diksa is ONLY fire sacrifice and name giving ceremony – Bas!
My point is to convey ONLY to the SINCERE that FORMALITY initiation is NOT the all in all.
The problem is UNLESS you present the WHOLE picture some devotees ONLY see in terms of fire sacrifice and name giving ceremonies as DIKSA and that is it! This is ALL they see.
KANISTHA(QUALIFIED BRAHMANA) stage is also something to be achieved BUT there is MORE in DIKSA one has to come to the level of Madhyama Adhikari to be RECEPIENT of SPIRITUAL INITIATION as per NOI ch 5:
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received SPIRITUAL initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service.
In presenting the knowledge of constitutional position (Svarupa) some SINCERE devotees CAN pick-up that there is an EXTRA understanding of Diksa here and will EXPOSE the misleading bogus conditioned soul “guru” ISKCON camp AS CHEATERS.
There is NO WAY that a CONDITIONED SOUL “guru” give DIVYA Jnana(Diksa). The very word DIVYA means TRANSCENDENTAL. Unless one is on a TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM (Uttama Adhikari/Mahabhagavata ) he can NOT give Krsna to another as the quote SB 10.2.18 shows GRAPHICALLY how Krsna is TRANSFERED to anothers heart. Self-Realization means when you SEE Krsna you can SEE your OWN constitutional position(SVARUPA). Just like when it is dark you can not SEE yourself. When the sun rises YOU can SEE the sun AS WELL as YOURSELF. This stage means ones karma reactions are burned off.
69-01-22. Letter: Vilasavigraha
In regard to your next question, self realization means God realization, and God realization means self realization. Just like to see the sun means to see oneself, and to see oneself means to see the sun. Self realization depends completely upon God realization, or else it is not complete. One must know his relationship to the Absolute Truth to fully know his position.
Bg 4.37 P Transcendental Knowledge
Perfect knowledge of self and Superself and of their relationship is compared herein to fire. This fire not only burns up all reactions to impious activities, but also all reactions to pious activities, turning them to ashes. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. When one is in complete knowledge, all reactions, both a priori and a posteriori, are consumed. In the Vedas it is stated, ubhe uhaivaisa ete taraty amrtah sadhv-asadhuni: “One overcomes both the pious and impious interactions of work.”
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
“DIKSA IS THE PROCESS BY WHICH ONE CAN AWAKEN HIS TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE AND VANQUISH ALL REACTIONS CAUSED BY SINFUL ACTIVITY. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
SB 1.2.20 T Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A brahmana is the symbol of sattva-guna, or the mode of goodness. And others, who are not in the mode of goodness, are either ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras or less than the sudras. The brahminical stage is the highest stage of human life because of its good qualities. So one cannot be a devotee unless one at least qualifies as a brahmana. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. As referred to above, such a brahmana has to become a Vaisnava in fact to be actually in the transcendental stage. A pure Vaisnava is a liberated soul and is transcendental even to the position of a brahmana. In the material stage even a brahmana is also a conditioned soul because although in the brahminical stage the conception of Brahman or transcendence is realized, scientific knowledge of the Supreme Lord is lacking. One has to surpass the brahminical stage and reach the vasudeva stage to understand the Personality of Godhead Krsna. The science of the Personality of Godhead is the subject matter for study by the postgraduate students in the spiritual line. Foolish men, or men with a poor fund of knowledge, do not understand the Supreme Lord, and they interpret Krsna according to their respective whims. The fact is, however, that one cannot understand the science of the Personality of Godhead unless one is freed from the contamination of the material modes, even up to the stage of a brahmana. When a qualified brahmana factually becomes a Vaisnava, in the enlivened state of liberation he can know what is actually the Personality of Godhead.
Mark prabhu you write:
“This particular line of support does not take into consideration pure neophytes, how they recieve Divya Jnana,…”
Mahesh : There is no such thing as “pure neophyte”. It is a contradiction in terms. Kanistha is a QUALIFIED brahmana who is a CONDITIONED SOUL so even a such a person as the quote above shows NEEDS to come up to the level of Vaisnava to SEE Krsna. “The fact is, however, that one cannot understand the science of the Personality of Godhead unless one is freed from the contamination of the material modes, even up to the stage of a brahmana.”
Mark Prabhu wrote:
Secondly, I was wondering in particular how you deal with the following portion of the May 28th conversation when opponents bring it up.
** Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupāda: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple. **
Especially considering there is ample use of the concept of grand disciples and grand spiritual masters as I will reproduce below.
All these learned scholars, in their turn, rendered their entrusted Vedas unto their many disciples, grand-disciples and great grand-disciples, and thus the respective branches of the followers of the Vedas came into being. SB 1.4.23 translation.
The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of ācāryas. SB 3.29.17 : PURPORT
You’ll be surprised to know that my grand-spiritual master, my spiritual master’s spiritual master, he was illiterate. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.4 — Los Angeles, January 12, 1968
This Mādhavendra Purī was the grand-spiritual master of Lord Caitanya. Mādhavendra Purī’s disciple Īśvara Purī, and Īśvara Purī was accepted as spiritual master of Lord Caitanya.
Bhagavad-gita 2.46-62 — Los Angeles, December 16, 1968
Regarding your questions are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them?—the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system.
Letter to: Mahananda — Los Angeles 27 April, 1970
You are all helping me by abiding the orders of my Spiritual Master, His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami maharaj and He’ll be pleased upon you who are His grand spiritual children.
Letter to: Krsna Devi — Gorakhpur 16 February, 1971
Mahesh:
You have ONLY shown in May 28 1977 conversations the part where it says “grand-disciples” but lets take it FURTHER in the conversation. Grand disciples can ONLY happen IF Srila Prabhupada ORDERED them as DIKSA Guru. But the FACT is he did NOT order them as DIKSA guru. Srila Prabhupada ONLY said WHEN I Order.
Srila Prabhupada says WHEN I order BUT there was NO ORDER so they can NOT be grand disciples. SIMPLE AS THAT! There is NO QUESTION of grand disciples WITHOUT the ORDER from Srila Prabhupada that they are DIKSA guru.
IF Srila Prabhupada had ORDERED them AS DIKSA GURU this would be direct CONTRADICTION to CAITANYA CARITAMRTA Madhya 24.330 where ONLY a MAHABHAGAVATA is accepted as DIKSA Guru. This is WHY he says WHEN I order. Srila Prabhupada did NOT ORDER them KNOWING they are ALL CONDITIONED SOULS.
This fact was ALSO confirmed by Tamal Krsna that they are ALL CONDITIONED SOULS.
770528me.vrn Conversations
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamala Krsna: No, he’s asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupada: They’re his disciple.
Tamala Krsna: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That’s clear.
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
Prabhupada: WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.
++++++++++++++++++++++
IF Srila Prabhupada would have ordered BEFORE 1977, then there would be no point in 1977 of him stating in 1977 WHEN I order. It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977, WHERE is the evidence of THAT order?
Prabhupada: “When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan)
“Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he’s guru. This is the fact…Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972)
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)
Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada: “I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” WHERE IS THIS ORDER (AUTHORIZATION)? Show us in writing from Srila Prabhupada NAMING the individuals as ACARYA. Exactly WHERE does Srila Prabhupada NAME the ACARYAS in writing?
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear FACT that we are ALL CONDITIONED souls, so we CANNOT be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
(Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977)
Guru MUST be on uttama-adhikari (maha-bhagavata) stage. But aside from that, he needs an ORDER from his Guru to be ACARYA.
Madhya 24.330 — The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse:
“In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people.
Prabhupada: “When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan)
There was NO ORDER from Srila Prabhupada NAMING ANY individual to be Diksa guru. The ONLY order was to act as Rtvik, July 9th 1977. NOTHING MORE!!!
In conclusion: Srila Prabhupada did not order, name, or authorise anyone as Acarya. FACT. But in spite of that, if one is worshipping those unauthorized conditioned souls as good as God (acarya), then it is the same as one animal worships another animal:
Life Comes From Life:
Srila Prabhupada. “Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.[4] This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means “dog,” vid-varaha means “stool-eating hog,” ustra means “camel,” and khara means “ass.” If the Nobel Prize is given to a scientist who is a rascal, the men on the committee who give him that prize are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. We don’t accept them as human beings. One animal is praised by another animal. Where is the credit in that? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings.”
Read the following:
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
ys mahesh
Dear Mahesh.
You must not read the all the comments I post on this forum, which is understandable, but you might miss something once in a while because I am not always blowing hot air.
There is such a thing as pure neophytes. In the very last post I made on the DOR defeat of Rocana thread I offered these quotes from Srila Prabhupada on this very issue.
Adi 7.51 : PURPORT :
This is a manifestation of real love for Kṛṣṇa and Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. There are three categories of Vaiṣṇavas: kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs, madhyama-adhikārīs and uttama-adhikārīs. The kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, or the devotee in the lowest stage of Vaiṣṇava life, has FIRM FAITH but is not familiar with the conclusions of the śāstras. The devotee in the second stage, the madhyama-adhikārī, is completely aware of the śāstric conclusion and has firm faith in his guru and the Lord. He, therefore, avoiding nondevotees, preaches to the innocent. However, the mahā-bhāgavata or uttama-adhikārī, the devotee in the highest stage of devotional life, does not see anyone as being against the Vaiṣṇava principles, for he regards everyone as a Vaiṣṇava but himself. This is the essence of Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s instruction that one be more tolerant than a tree and think oneself lower than the straw in the street (tṛṇād api su-nīcena taror iva sahiṣṇunā). However, even if a devotee is in the uttama-bhāgavata status he must come down to the second status of life, madhyama-adhikārī, to be a preacher, for a preacher should not tolerate blasphemy against another Vaiṣṇava. Although a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing śāstric evidences. Therefore Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara are understood to be KANISTHA-ADHIKARIS because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyāsīs in Benares. They appealed to Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu to take action, for they felt that they could not tolerate such criticism although they also could not stop it.
Adi 7.52 : PURPORT
Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very compassionate for His PURE DEVOTEES Tapana Miśra and Candraśekhara .
So when you quote NOI 5, in the following fashion…
“A madhyama-adhikari has received SPIRITUAL initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.”
You are missing an important point. The conjunction “And” separates 2 different subjects. The kanistha adhikari receives spiritual initiation from the spiritual master as well. The difference is that a Kanistha may or may not be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Whereas, apparently, the Madhyama is in a permanent fashion.
—————————————————————-
As far as the grand disciple order.
It is best to understand this section of the may 28th conversation by listening to it live, to hear the pauses and inflections in Srila Prahbupada’s voice.
https://soundcloud.com/kesava-belletty/may-28th-1977-tape-2-minutes
Satsvarūpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupāda: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarūpa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.
The way I read it, Satsvarupa is asking about the person “giving the initiation” which refers to the ritvik giving the FORMAL initiation.
Srila Prabhupada acknowledges that the person giving the formal initiation is Guru. Note he doesn’t say what kind of guru.
Sats replies “But he is doing it on your behalf”. The word “but” implies that Sats sees some contradiction and needs clarification.
SP replies that Yes, he is Guru. BUT ALSO, due to the formality of the fact that I AM PRESENT, you are not supposed to become guru. So ON MY BEHALF, ON MY ORDER you are becoming Guru in this case. It is not that you are breaking the law and becoming Guru in a situation where you are not allowed. I am harmonizing the contradiction by ordering you to become Guru and you are doing the formality on my behalf.
He is NOT ordering them to become a Diksa Guru. He is ordering them to become Siksa Guru and take responsibility for the new devotee.
Sats. then replies to this.
Satsvarūpa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
So Sats is trying to understand the contradiction that Srila Prabhupada is harmonizing and guesses that the new Bhaktas will not exclusively be disciples of the Ritviks, but also disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
SP’s seems to be taken back that Sats seems to be giving him second billing here and annoyed at his ignorance. You can hear it on tape. But simultaneously, he does not directly answer the question.
Tamala steps in and interprets Sats question in a way to get a more definitive answer about who’s disciples these new people become.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupāda: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
When Srila Prabhupada says “they are his disciple”, he says it as an incomplete thought, as if there is more to the answer.
Tamala repeats what he said.
Srila Prabhupada then says “Who is initiating” in the exact same manner as he said “they are his disciple” as if he was holding back, and what most would assume he was saying up til now was wrong and they needed to keep listening.
There is a pause.
SP then says, “He is granddisciple”.
When you put it together, it is obvious he was referring to himself in the last answer to Tamala.
And that the type of disciple he was speaking of was a Diksa disciple.
They are his disciple (mine).
Who is initiating (me).
He is granddisciple. (Here he is referring to himself as well) Meaning that he was not being inconsistent with ordering the Ritviks to be Gurus. Meaning that the new people were their disciples also. But siksa disciples only.
And those ritviks were duty bound, as were temple presidents and every brahmana to give Siksa exactly under the Guidelines of the founder-acarya. Including the ritvik diksa instruction making all newcomers Diksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s admission that new disciples were Siksa disciples of his direct disciples was like admitting the sky is blue. It did not transfer any special powers to them to make changes to anything he already set in stone. It was just a statement of fact that instructors have students and another word for that is disciple.
That is how I read and hear that conversation.
Hare Krsna
Mark Prabhu:
There is such a thing as pure neophytes.
Mahesh: When you type “pure neophyte” or “pure neophytes” in Vedabase there is nothing there. It is best to use the actual term Srila Prabhupada uses.
The words Pure Devotees in the case with Tapana Misra and Candrasekhara although they are Kanistha is interesting but lets acknowledge that to be in pastime with Lord Caitanya is no ordinary thing they have to be PURE devotees PLAYING the pastime to teach US.
Like wise PURE devotee is used simultaneous onesness and different in many places. The ACTUAL FACT is Neophyte (Kanistha Adhikari) is a CONTAMINATED conditioned soul so in that sense is NOT pure devotee in comparison to Utttama Adhikari. We have to see the context of application.
Mark Prabhu:
SP replies that Yes, he is Guru. BUT ALSO, due to the formality of the fact that I AM PRESENT, you are not supposed to become guru. So ON MY BEHALF, ON MY ORDER you are becoming Guru in this case. It is not that you are breaking the law and becoming Guru in a situation where you are not allowed. I am harmonizing the contradiction by ordering you to become Guru and you are doing the formality on my behalf.
He is NOT ordering them to become a Diksa Guru. He is ordering them to become Siksa Guru and take responsibility for the new devotee.
Mahesh: that “ON MY ORDER” is in reference to FORMALITIES of 1st and 2nd initiations ON SRILA PRABHUPADA’S BEHALF. This is just RE-CONFIRMING Ritvik Order July 9th 1977.
And the DISCIPLES can NOT belong to those who give mere FORMALITIES ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. They disciples belong to ONE WHO GIVES discipline to the DISCIPLES and Srila Prabhupada has given ALL the discipline 16 rounds 4 regs, all his books, tapes, cds.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Mark Prabhu:
Who is initiating (me).
He is granddisciple. (Here he is referring to himself as well) Meaning that he was not being inconsistent with ordering the Ritviks to be Gurus. Meaning that the new people were their disciples also. But siksa disciples only.
And those ritviks were duty bound, as were temple presidents and every brahmana to give Siksa exactly under the Guidelines of the founder-acarya. Including the ritvik diksa instruction making all newcomers Diksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s admission that new disciples were Siksa disciples of his direct disciples was like admitting the sky is blue. It did not transfer any special powers to them to make changes to anything he already set in stone. It was just a statement of fact that instructors have students and another word for that is disciple.
That is how I read and hear that conversation.
Mahesh: Ritvik is a Priest. That does NOT make him OWNER of the disciples BUT that tendency to OWN disciples is there. HOWEVER it is advised if one WANTS to make progress in spiritual life “It is best not to accept any disciples”.
It is best not to accept any disciples.
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
In Bhakta Mark’s comment,
there is the following letter,
You are all helping me by abiding the orders of my Spiritual Master, His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami maharaj and He’ll be pleased upon you who are His grand spiritual children.
Letter to: Krsna Devi — Gorakhpur 16 February, 1971
Again, there is “His”being used to refer to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. Was or wasn’t this letter written(physically)by Prabhupada,or was it spoken on the dictaphone?I’m asking this because Pratyatosa Prabhu maintains that I’m very stubborn in not accepting the issue on ‘him’ and ‘Him’.He said that Prabhupada hardly wrote letters out himself until 1969,but this letter is dated 1971.Even Bhakta Hugh offers his answer on ‘Update on Rocana Das’s Sampradaya Sun” and Pratyatosa Prabhu is delighted at hat answer and says that this should end the debate.Certainly, I believe that using ‘His’ doesn’t make one a mayavadi..in that case Prabhupada would have opposed this usage,right?
So what is the correct understanding on this issue?
Begging for a reply,
Your servant,
Santosh
Hare Krsna Mahesha,
You said: Mahesh: When you type “pure neophyte” or “pure neophytes” in Vedabase there is nothing there. It is best to use the actual term Srila Prabhupada uses.
Srila Prabhupada calls Candrashekar and Tapana misra neophytes in one purport, and in the very next purport calls them pure devotees, and your criticism of me is that I am not using the actual terms Srila Prabhupada uses when I say they are pure neophytes? I think that you and I should be past such small stuff.
Next, you wrote: The words Pure Devotees in the case with Tapana Misra and Candrasekhara although they are Kanistha is interesting but lets acknowledge that to be in pastime with Lord Caitanya is no ordinary thing they have to be PURE devotees PLAYING the pastime to teach US.
my reply: I can see where you would assume this, but it is not a fact so I cannot acknowledge it. Based on the following quote from Srila Prabhupada, it is highly likely they are NOT as you say, but COULD be. It is speculative at best and likely not the case.
Letter to: Jadurani — Vrindaban 9 September, 1967 : 67-09-09 :
Please accept my blessings. Your letter of 8/24 contains some important questions. The six goswamis are NOT ALL ETERNAL ASSOCIATES of Krishna. Only Rupa and Raghunath Goswami are eternal associates. You know there are two kinds of living entities: nityamukta or eternal associates of the Lord, and nityabaddha or eternally conditioned. This material manifestation is a chance for the eternally conditioned entities to go Back to Godhead; but when they go back there is no distinction between the two. When Krishna appears some of his eternal associates come with Him to assist Him in His different incarnational activities; and SOME OF THE LIVING ENTITIES FROM CONDITIONED LIFE ARE LIBERATED BY FOLLOWING THE FOOTPRINT OF LORD KRISHNA AND HIS BONA FIDE ASSOCIATES; so all the six BECAME eternal associates of Krishna. Regarding SARVABHAUMA BATTACARYA, he decended from higher planet FOR BEING LIBERATED IN THE ASSOCIATION OF LORD CAITANYA , SO HIS CONDITIONED LIFE CAME TO AN END AFTER HE CONTACTED LORD CAITANYA.
NOI 8 “In the transcendental realm of Vraja [Vraja-dhāma] one should serve the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, with a feeling similar to that of His associates, and one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Kṛṣṇa and should follow in his footsteps. This method is applicable both in the stage of sādhana [spiritual practices executed while in the stage of bondage] and in the stage of sādhya [God realization], when one is a siddha-puruṣa, or a spiritually perfect soul.”
MY COMMENT: The essence of your argument is a good point that neophyte prabhus in Caitanya lila are exceptionally elevated souls, and that generally a neophyte is not capable of GIVING DIKSA, nor would he be ordered to. But all Neophytes are certainly able to RECEIVE spiritual initiation. But neophytes differ from Madhyams since Madhyamas are ALSO fully engaged in loving service. MOST neophytes are not, and only the exceptional ones are.
——————————————————————————
Regarding the May 28th conversation.
you said: He is NOT ordering them to become a Diksa Guru. He is ordering them to become Siksa Guru and take responsibility for the new devotee.
my reply: You should probably have read what I wrote in full, because I never claimed he ordered them to become Diska guru, and in fact I stated he did not.
you said: Mahesh: Ritvik is a Priest. That does NOT make him OWNER of the disciples BUT that tendency to OWN disciples is there. HOWEVER it is advised if one WANTS to make progress in spiritual life “It is best not to accept any disciples”.
my reply: Again, if you were to read closely what I wrote, I never said or inferred that the ritviks were made owners of the disciples. Srila Prabhpuada was actually acknowledging that by ordering them to be officiating acaryas on his behalf, that he was simultaneously ordering them to be Guru (siksa) even while he was present. Like you acknowledge. Whether or not they took that the wrong way was up to them, Srila Prabhupada was just acknowledging reality. A Siksa guru takes reponsibility for their disciples whether they gave them Diksa or not.
Srila Prabhupada said they would be “regular” gurus. There is nothing regular about a Diksa guru. The most regular guru you can find is siksa.
And as far as that quote from Madhya 7.130 it never made sense to me. I just accepted that Srila Prabhupada wrote “it is best not to accept any disciples” for reasons unknown to me, since the context was clearly and EXPLICITLY about instructing, preaching and becoming a spiritual master.
Then just the other day, someone I normally wouldn’t accept advice from made an excellent point and offered proof that made all the sense in the world. In an article published on Sampradaya Sun.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-13/editorials9683.htm
Jan 29, 2013 — INDIA (SUN) —
Sattvic Prabhu has quoted from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Cc Madhya 7.130:
“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.”
In the present edition of the Vedabase, this has been changed to:
“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking “I am a first-class devotee, so it is best not to accept any disciples.” Such thinking should be avoided.”
This change is based on the Anubhasya, the commentary by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, from which Srila Prabhupada was translating. Following are images of the relevant section of Anubhasya, for the benefit of those who can read Bengali.
I have seen the original transcript of Srila Prabhupada’s dictation of this section of his commentary, and it is clear that the editors at that time mistakenly rendered this part as it was first published. It is unsurprising that errors like this were made in the marathon to publish eighteen books in two months. This has now been corrected. The original transcript is with the Bhaktivedanta Archives.
I plan to gradually respond, probably starting next week, to other points made by Sattvic Prabhu.
Hare Krsna.
Dasabhasa, BVS
——————————–
So, that purport from CC Madhya 7.130 should read.
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided. . One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Therefore, one should act as madhyam and preach. Accept as many disciples as is practical.
————————————————-
Thank you for the discussion.
ys
Mark
Santosh, you are correct in using capital His or He to well known distinguished personality such as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada as per British English whereas in an American English it may not be so. Therefore, it does not make Mayavadi.
Some body ( I am not sure who at this moment ) gave an example of Srila Prabhupada correcting the letter in which the disciple writes to Srila Prabhupada with capital H and Srila Prabhupada corrected him saying to write small h instead because Srila Prabhupada is so humble and meek and he is present before the disciple. That is the position of Srila Prabhupada Himself.
When third party such as I am writing about Srila Prabhupada, His name and addressing Him with capital letter is certainly appropriate because He is the well known distinguished personality besides Mahesh Raja Prabhu explained it very nicely that Srila Prabhupada is the Representative of God, therefore, He is as good as God Himself.
So both way no body can challenge it using and addressing to Srila Prabhupada with Capital Letter as He or His. and certainly that does not make Srila Prabhupada Mayavadi.
Hope it helps you, Santosh.
Hari BOL. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS…….. Amar Puri.
Well said Amar Puri. Well said.
Srila Prabhupada was able to cover all the angles in that May 28th conversation, which began with the question “what to do after you are no longer with us”.
He gave legitimacy to an act which is normally against etiquette according to what he called “the law of disciplic succession”. He was putting the finishing touches on a system that had recently left him totally hands off from both formal initiations AND instructing new Bhaktas. So he said that those officiating “ritvik” acaryas he was naming to give Diksa on HIS BEHALF were ALSO as good as ORDERED to be a regular or Siksa Guru.
By extension, this legitimized the person who would do MOST of the instructing of these new Bhaktas, who was the temple president. Because the Officiating Acaryas were accepting the recommendation of the TP’s, thus extending the authority to be Siksa Guru to them as well. It could be argued that new initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada would be more a Siksa disciple of the local TP or senior man who he trusted with instructing, than a Siksa disciple of the Ritvik. But that is besides the main point of this topic.
Everyone always says that everyone is a Siksa Disciple of Srila Prabhupada. This is true when someone is following some instruction from Srila Prabhupada’s own lotus lips. But when they are following an instruction from some other person, they may or may not be in the actual position of Siksa disciple of SP because the may or may not be receiving instruction in line with SP’s actual guidelines.
This of course is dependent on the chastity of the instructor. All disciples in Iskcon are “meant to” or “supposed to” always be guided by Srila Prabhupada’s siksa, but what they don’t know CAN AND WILL HURT THEM. Because a devotee who is authorized by Srila Prabhupada to give Siksa has free will to cheat at any given time, and it may take some time for a new disciple to discover they are misled.
The ritvik system was designed to make it theoretically more difficult for an instructor to stray from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, as everyone is to be considered Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa disciple. And as far as Siksa, they are his grand-disciple, etc. So they are linked to him in both ways.
Just like Srila Prabhupada would sometimes say that his disciples were grand-disciples of his Spiritual master, and that Gaura Kishore das Babaji was His Grand Spiritual Master.
This meant Siksa. That in essence, the disciple receives Siksa that would be pleasing to the order and mood of the Grand Spiritual master, and the “Great grand spiritual master” all the way up the line of the Parampara.
There can be only ONE Diksa spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada made it abundantly clear in his commentary to NOI 5 that we were to accept NO LESS THAN an uttama adhikari as spiritual master.
And SP was clear in his follow up order on July 9th that all new devotees would be his initiated Diksa disciples.
So, with the Ritvik system, he assured that anyone who came to Iskcon would always receive an uttama Spiritual master by Diksa. He empowered any strict follower who was qualified to be appointed to Ritvik priest by the GBC to pass Diksa mantras and sacred thread to a new disciple which would forever link them to Srila Prabhupada. Whether or not that new disciple received Uttama guidance or not was no longer up to SP!!! This was even the case before he disappeared! How many stories have we heard of his newly initiated disciples being misled by local leaders who strayed from SP’s siksa? SP did not have the ability to be present to check that from happening then, any more than he does now after his disappearance.
He did what he could and left as many safeguards in place as possible, so that it would be EASY for loyal disciples to recognize cheaters.
One thing that Mahesh Raja has made very clear over the years is that Proxy Diksa initiation is not JUST a formality but also a spiritual act performed by virtue of the Transcendental authority invested in the Ritvik priest by the Acarya. Since it was the order of the Founder and Acarya of the Society, the paradox is that the only way any Ritvik could possibly give Diksa is by following the order of the Acarya and giving it on his behalf. It is a paradox because for all intents and purposes they are actually giving Diksa, but simultaneously that Diksa would be worthless by one tiny change, which would be if they claimed they were the Diksa Guru!
At that point the newcomer is cheated and receives Diksa that is only as potent as the adhikari of the “initiator”. And more than likely that initiator will not adhere to the instructional guidelines of the Founder Acarya, so the Siksa will be insufficient as well.
Hare Krsna
Mark Prabhu wrote:
Srila Prabhupada calls Candrashekar and Tapana misra neophytes in one purport, and in the very next purport calls them pure devotees, and your criticism of me is that I am not using the actual terms Srila Prabhupada uses when I say they are pure neophytes? I think that you and I should be past such small stuff.
Mahesh: I am NOT trying to belittle/criticise you – the problem with using your own terms is you get stuck if someone asks you to explain HOW is “PURE neophyte” not a devotee OR if he is conditioned soul HOW is he PURE? It is just contradictory:
a)Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa
b)IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lets discuss about your acceptance of Bhakti Viksas Maharaja interpolation:
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
From Bhaktiviksa Maharaja Interpolation:
So, that purport from CC Madhya 7.130 should read.
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided. . One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Therefore, one should act as madhyam and preach. Accept as many disciples as is practical.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lets look at what Bhaktiviksa Maharaja states and think IS IT THE TRUTH? Does what he say make sense?
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
1) Advanced devotee does he think it is BEST NOT accept disciples? HOW?
If that was a FACT then it contradicts Maha-bhagavata as Diksa guru:
“It is stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the guru.”
So HOW can it be ARTIFICIAL thinking?
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said: gurur nrnam. The word nrnam means “of all human beings.” The guru is not limited to a particular group. It is stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the guru.
2) NOI 5 does NOT ADVISE one to accept DISCIPLES on Kanistha level or Madhyama level It simply states they CAN accept disciples. BUT it strongly advises devotees to ACCEPT Uttama Adhikari as Guru INSTEAD: “Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
NoI 5
In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
3) ALL the disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada’s 07-09-77, Letter to All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
4) ALL Disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada:
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
5) Disciple belongs to whoever gives DISCIPLINE TO him: In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
6) Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not
Madhya 16.74 The Lord’ s Attempt to Go to Vrndavana
“One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into gold.” One should judge by action, not by promises. A maha-bhagavata can turn a living entity from abominable material life to the Lord’s service. This is the test of a maha-bhagavata. Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism. Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not. He thinks that everyone is competent to accept Krsna consciousness if the chance is provided. A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the maha-bhagavata and serve him in every respect.
740115mw.haw Conversations
Prabhupada: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, “Kick them on their face with your shoes, so-called scientists.” “Accident.” There is no question of accident. Mudha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita as mudhah, rascals, naradhama. Naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Krsna, but they avoid it, they are naradhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and…” mayayapahrta-jnanah. Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Krsna, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. The supervision of Krsna. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kanistha-adhikari will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikari will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikari, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikari. He does not make any distinction.
Bali Mardana: He does not preach.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. He’s paramahamsa. Does not preach means he preaches, but he comes to the second-class platform. The first-class platform means he does not make any distinction between devotee and nondevotee. He sees everyone is engaged in Krsna’s service.
Bali Mardana: Does he consciously come from the first-class to second-class.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Jesus Christ says that there was many things to be said by, by…
Bali Mardana: “There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.”
Prabhupada: Yes, so that means he’s first-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He’s first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But… Just like Lord Buddha. He’s God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that “These rascals, they will not be able to… Let them stop meat-eating, that’s all. Let them become sinless first of all; then they will be able…” So his main preaching was ahimsa, non-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, “Thou shall not kill,” but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmah kaitavah: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating.
Dear Mahesh,
You wrote: I am NOT trying to belittle/criticise you — the problem with using your own terms is you get stuck if someone asks you to explain HOW is “PURE neophyte” not a devotee OR if he is conditioned soul HOW is he PURE? It is just contradictory:
My reply: I understand that you are saying that if Srila Prabhupada says they are neophytes in one sentence, and that they are pure devotees in another sentence, that for me to call them PURE NEOPHYTE DEVOTEES is somehow a concoction of “my own terms”. I just have to reiterate that I find this hard to accept and against common sense, but I am not trying to belittle you. I have thought about it because i respect you, but cannot see how you can’t accept it. Its up to you, its a small thing.
And I disagree that it is CONTRADICTORY, just UNCOMMON.
The citations of the nature of neophyte Bhaktabhasa are not unknown to me. There are dozens of quotes that distinguish between the many degrees of neophyte devotees. Even prakrta bhaktas who fall down into sahajiya are still considered neophyte vaisnavas.
My main point was about your use the following quote- “A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.”
You seem to use it to indicate that only Madhyams have actually received Diksa properly because Divya Jnana is the transmission of knowledge of the Lord from one heart to another, etc. And I am trying to show you that neophytes who receive Diksa, both informal and formal, go through the SAME process of Diksa, and, at some point while they are still neophytes, there is spiritual realization of transcendental knowledge of the Lord in their hearts.
Why is that so hard to understand? It does not diminish the scores of excellent examples you use to illustrate why Ritvik Diksa is proper. I am just trying to point out a small chink in your armor. Please don’t be defensive, I would like to think we have a common aim here. Not all Iskcon devotees are so dull as to only value the formal aspect of initiation which you admit is what you are mainly addressing and I am trying to help you raise your game.
Next, as far as “One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.”
Bhakti Vikas is a very high profile devotee who is in his own little battle with Iskcon right now. He cannot afford to make claims lightly. And he claims the following.
“I HAVE SEEN THE ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT OF SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DICTATION OF THIS SECTION OF HIS COMMENTARY, and it is clear that the editors at that time mistakenly rendered this part as it was first published. It is unsurprising that errors like this were made in the marathon to publish eighteen books in two months. This has now been corrected. THE ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT IS WITH THE BHAKTIVEDANTA ARCHIVES.”
The fact that Bhakti Vikas ALSO produced the Bengali manuscript evidence told me that he was willing to back up what he was offering. He is a VERY high profile figure, and there are plenty of devotees who can read Bengali and who have access to the B.A. and can call him out on either point. I personally don’t read Bengali.
And if this is some great conspiracy (which is possible knowing these clowns) that still doesn’t change the fact that IF the vedabase version is correct, as you assert, the statement before that section is
“INSTRUCT relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.”
And the two directly after it are.
1. “One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and PREACHING THE PRINCIPLES enunciated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.”
2. “THUS ONE CAN BECOME A SPIRITUAL MASTER and be freed from the contamination of material life.”
Instructing, preaching principles (teaching), and becoming a spiritual master.
I think that qualifies as Siksa Guru don’t you? Which leads me to believe that Srila Prabhupada was simply warning of the tendency a “relatively” advanced devotee (bhajananandi) might have to think one self to be very advanced and try to remain aloof from being dragged down into dealing with a bunch of possibly fanatic neophyte disciples who you become intimately responsible for.
So in this context, he tries to show how you can accept SIKSA disciples by simply staying at home and instructing who comes into your path, and that this is what he wants and is the best path to take, as His goal was to produce Gosthanandis.
Again, I am not sure you have understood my presentation correctly mainly because you seem to be equating the word disciple almost exclusively with Diksa Guru, and IF you equate it with Siksa, that the Siksa guru must be an uttama Mahabhagavata.
My presentation seeks to harmonize all of the statements, including seeming contradictions, made in the May 28th 1977 conversation and the July 9th letter. It is possible to do, as I showed, without admitting that Srila Prahbupada ordered anyone to become Diksa Guru but instead reasserting that all new disciples would be HIS initiated disciples.
But I simultaneously admit that if any ritvik priest were to be faithful and instruct according to Srila Prabhupada’s exact guidelines, that he was a by nature a worthy Siksa guru, and the devotees he instructed were ALSO his disciples (which is the reality AND what Srila Prabhupada meant by the use of the word GRAND DISCIPLE).
I base the above on my understanding which differs with yours, about the order given.
You say- “IF Srila Prabhupada would have ordered BEFORE 1977, then there would be no point in 1977 of him stating in 1977 WHEN I order. It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977, WHERE is the evidence of THAT order?”
He was speaking of his order for some of them to become “officiating acaryas” which he also agreed were “ritvik-acaryas”. Such an order is very similar to the quote when he said (“I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.”) Perhaps you are not aware that acarya does not have to mean Diksa Guru. “ideal teacher” comes to mind and it applies to all teachers including fathers. see Bg 3.21 : PURPORT.
After speaking of the order to become ritvik acaryas, SP is asked what is the relationship of THAT person who is giving the initiation and the… (new person/new disciple)
Srila Prabhupada knows what he is asking and cuts him off saying HE is Guru. He is Guru.
Sats then notes that although this Ritvik acarya is being called GURU, they are “doing it” (giving initiation) on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf.
Satsvarūpa: “But he does it on your behalf.”
Srila Prabhupada says “YES”.
Then he describes why the Ritvik acarya is “doing it” on his behalf.
SP: “That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… be actually Guru but by my order.
Which plainly means that since He is present, He is recognizing the formal law which states his disciples should not become guru, so he is ORDERING them to be guru on his behalf. He broke many of formalities, and was doing it again.
His disciples were obviously not self effulgent uttama adhikari gurus who could give potent Diksa and Siksa on their own, but he was ORDERING them to be acaryas, empowering them to initiate on his behalf and teach as his Siksa Guru representatives. This was NOT an order to become Diksa Guru in their own right, and there were already MANY restrictions on the instructions that they could give as Siksa Gurus because of all the Volumes of instructive guidelines they had to abide by.
Next Satswarupa indicates his ignorance in thinking this order was something more than it was and that maybe they would be HIS OWN disciples exclusively
Satsvarūpa: “So they may also be considered your disciples.”
Srila Prabhupada is at first taken back by his ignorance, but quickly corrects him while his tone of voice implies that he is noticing this as a limitation due to his ambition, but you have to listen to the audio to really hear this.
Prabhupāda: “Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?”
Tamala’s jumps in, and his statement indicates one of two things or perhaps both. He is either insinuating that Srila Prabhupada didn’t understand what Satswarupa was actually asking, or he was chastising Satswarupa and rephrasing the question to what he thought it SHOULD have been.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?
To which Srila Prabhupada responds with a pause and in a tone which indicates he is not finished with the thought and there is more to come.
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
Tamala repeats this softly to show he is keeping track.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: “They’re his disciple”.
Prabhupada continues.
Prabhupāda: “Who is initiating.” (referring to himself, and defining who he was referring to in the previous statement “they’re his disciple”)
short pause
Prabhupāda: “He is granddisciple. (referring to the new disciple and himself).
He is closing the loop here by indicating that although he is authorizing his disciples to act as acaryas on his behalf and to be siksa gurus in his presence, he is remaining the initiating Diksa guru and acknowledging his Grand Spiritual Master status as well because this conversation was ALSO in reference to when he would NO LONGER BE WITH THEM.
Others hearing this conversation would tell me that this is my concoction. Because when Tamala says “the people who they give Diksa to” is not challenged by Srila Prabhupada, and that on its surface “they” directly refers to the “ritvik acaryas”.
So, everyone in Iskcon translates the next 2 declarations as referring to the Ritvik Acarya. They’re HIS DISCIPLE. Who is initiating.
And then “He is granddisciple” is translated as a simple acknowledgement of the traditional use of granddisciple meaning that the new man is ALSO INDIRECTLY Srila Prabhupada’s disciple in the Parampara.
But I attempt to defeat their assumption by looking deeper and seeing that his order was to become Guru ON HIS BEHALF, and thus he was STILL INITIATING AND REMAINING THE DIKSA GURU, both at the moment of the order and “into the future when He is no longer with us”.
I hope you find this explanation satisfying, because it is the only way I can see to possibly defeat the seemingly well reasoned surface translation of the exact words in this conversation offered by Iskcon.
If you have any pointed criticisms as to my conclusion, please make them in a pointed way that can address the Iskcon position I am trying to defeat, by substituting another version so I can see what you would say.
Hare Krsna
ys
Mark
Mark Prabhu:
Bhakti Vikas is a very high profile devotee who is in his own little battle with Iskcon right now.
Mahesh: It is called Anti Ritvik DRAMA QUEEN act . These are ALL PERFOMANCE ACTS to please their PAYMASTERS the bogus GBC. Tamal Krsna he also weeped crocodile tears re Topanga Cannyon Talks. Rocana he initially used to allow “Ritviks” on his site to present very good articles – so when these folks get some concessession,back handers, pat on theirs heads good boy! from their paymasters the BOGUS GBC they all sing RITVIKS ARE THIS RITVIKS ARE THAT ETC ETC. ALL these folks then produce some ” Anti Ritvik PROPAGANDA Papers” to please their PAY masters FLATTERY to get some REWARDS. Grovelling like under dogs. O masters we will be your Anti Ritvik DOGS produce some Anti Ritvik PROPAGANDA papers for you give us the money, disciples , some patch where we can earn our cash.
Seen it all before !
Hare Krsna!
Mark Prabhu:
The fact that Bhakti Vikas ALSO produced the Bengali manuscript evidence told me that he was willing to back up what he was offering. He is a VERY high profile figure, and there are plenty of devotees who can read Bengali and who have access to the B.A. and can call him out on either point. I personally don’t read Bengali.
Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada did NOT ask Bhakti Vikas types to change what he had written please read again below and THINK carefully it is not a question of Bengali abc translation it is about Srila Prabhupada’s REALIZATIONS and WHAT HE wanted IN HIS books:
Srila Prabhupada: “YOU CANNOT IMAGINE WHAT MY SPIRITUAL MASTER SAID. OR EVEN IF YOU READ SOME BOOKS, YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME”
CC Madhya 7.130 Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
Little Bengali abc and they think they know it all:
731208SB.LA Lectures
You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-13/editorials9683.htm
Bhakti Vikas Maharaja interpolation:
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
From Bhaktiviksa Maharaja Interpolation:
So, that purport from CC Madhya 7.130 should read.
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided. . One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Therefore, one should act as madhyam and preach. Accept as many disciples as is practical.
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Lets look at what Bhaktiviksa Maharaja states and think IS IT THE TRUTH? Does what he say make sense?
One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee, so It is best not to accept any disciples. Such thinking should be avoided.
1) Advanced devotee does he think it is BEST NOT accept disciples? HOW?
If that was a FACT then it contradicts Maha-bhagavata as Diksa guru:
“It is stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the guru.”
So HOW can it be ARTIFICIAL thinking?
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
In the Padma Purana, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said: gurur nrnam. The word nrnam means “of all human beings.” The guru is not limited to a particular group. It is stated in the Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami that a guru is a gosvami, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Prthivim sa sisyat. This is the TEST of the guru.
2) NOI 5 does NOT ADVISE one to accept DISCIPLES on Kanistha level or Madhyama level It simply states they CAN accept disciples. BUT it strongly advises devotees to ACCEPT Uttama Adhikari as Guru INSTEAD: “Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
NoI 5
In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
3) ALL the disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada
Srila Prabhupada’s 07-09-77, Letter to All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupad by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.
4) ALL Disciples in ISKCON belong to Srila Prabhupada:
680312iv.sf Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes, I AM the spiritual master of this institution, and ALL the members of the society, they’re supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually. So therefore the spiritual master is called guru. That is Sanskrit language.
5) Disciple belongs to whoever gives DISCIPLINE TO him: In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined BY Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING of the word “disciple”
Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur:
Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.”
Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1, Text 35:
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (his books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
Caitanya-caritamra, Adi 1:
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
Caitanya-caritamra, Antya 19.102:
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
6) Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not
Madhya 16.74 The Lord’ s Attempt to Go to Vrndavana
“One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into gold.” One should judge by action, not by promises. A maha-bhagavata can turn a living entity from abominable material life to the Lord’s service. This is the test of a maha-bhagavata. Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism. Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not. He thinks that everyone is competent to accept Krsna consciousness if the chance is provided. A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the maha-bhagavata and serve him in every respect.
740115mw.haw Conversations
Prabhupada: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, “Kick them on their face with your shoes, so-called scientists.” “Accident.” There is no question of accident. Mudha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita as mudhah, rascals, naradhama. Naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Krsna, but they avoid it, they are naradhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and…” mayayapahrta-jnanah. Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Krsna, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. The supervision of Krsna. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kanistha-adhikari will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikari will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikari, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikari. He does not make any distinction.
Bali Mardana: He does not preach.
Prabhupada: Eh? No. He’s paramahamsa. Does not preach means he preaches, but he comes to the second-class platform. The first-class platform means he does not make any distinction between devotee and nondevotee. He sees everyone is engaged in Krsna’s service.
Bali Mardana: Does he consciously come from the first-class to second-class.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Jesus Christ says that there was many things to be said by, by…
Bali Mardana: “There are many things, but I can, but you cannot, I have to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.”
Prabhupada: Yes, so that means he’s first-class, but he comes to the second-class platform or third-class platform to teach the third-class, second-class person. He’s first class. Son of God cannot be second-class or third-class. He must be first-class. But… Just like Lord Buddha. He’s God Himself, but He said nothing about God because he knew that “These rascals, they will not be able to… Let them stop meat-eating, that’s all. Let them become sinless first of all; then they will be able…” So his main preaching was ahimsa, non-violence, no meat-eating. But still, they violate that. Jesus Christ also preached, “Thou shall not kill,” but these rascals, all violating. And still, they are proclaiming as Christian and Buddhist. No religion will, real religion, will allow this kind of violence, no religion. It is cheating religion. Dharmah kaitavah: Any religion committing unnecessary violence to the animals, (it is) third-class. It is not religion, it is cheating. Simply cheating.
Dear Mahesha,
You are not very good at reading what I actually say. You put words into my mouth, and defeat straw men time and again. And when I try to clarify, I get more of the same. Sorry, I am not into that sort of thing. Take care.
ys
Mark
“which he also agreed were “ritvik-acaryas” ”
He didn’t agree. Listen again, he gently corrects Tamal rather than agrees with him.
As it is childish prattle.
Time has shown us their true nature as fools, rather than acarya’s.
Acarya can mean teacher but not every teacher is an acarya.
For example you are a teacher, so shall we call you Mark Acarya or Acarya Mark?
Dear Bhakta Hugh,
Just to play along and give you the benefit of the doubt, I spent 10 minutes battling my corrupt browser to get that audio file to work and listened to it again.
I didn’t notice a significant change in SP’s tone or tenor. He had just finished saying he would appoint them as officiating acaryas. Is the word acarya not present there?
And when Tamala wonders if that is equivalent to “ritvik acaryas” SP replies Ritvik, yes. Straight up.
And you are going to try and play word games based on that?
Do you think he would order them to be LESS than an ideal teacher? Which is the least weighty definition of acarya?
Don’t forget, this order is for all disciples for thousands of years. Some may rise up to the challenge, and some may not. But clearly some of us will become ideal teachers by vowing and insisting to instruct within his specific guidelines. And those of us that do so, should be the ones that we nominate to the post of Ritvik representative of the acarya, to accept Diksa initiation recommendations from temple presidents on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf.
As far as what you call me, trust me, I have been called every name in the book, but never acarya. You can call me as you like, just please don’t call me late for Prasadam.
Hare Krsna,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Jan 29, 2013 — INDIA (SUN) —
Sattvic Prabhu has quoted from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Cc Madhya 7.130:
“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.”
In the present edition of the Vedabase, this has been changed to:
“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking “I am a first-class devotee, so it is best not to accept any disciples.” Such thinking should be avoided.”
This change is based on the Anubhasya, the commentary by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, from which Srila Prabhupada was translating. Following are images of the relevant section of Anubhasya, for the benefit of those who can read Bengali.
I have seen the original transcript of Srila Prabhupada’s dictation of this section of his commentary, and it is clear that the editors at that time mistakenly rendered this part as it was first published. It is unsurprising that errors like this were made in the marathon to publish eighteen books in two months. This has now been corrected. The original transcript is with the Bhaktivedanta Archives.
I plan to gradually respond, probably starting next week, to other points made by Sattvic Prabhu.
Hare Krsna.
Dasabhasa, BVS
Dear Mahesh Prabhu,
You are saying that it is not the abc’s of Bengali, but the realizations of Srila Prabhupada that actually matter.But BVS says—-“It is unsurprising that errors like this were made in the marathon to publish eighteen books in two months. This has now been corrected. The original transcript is with the Bhaktivedanta Archives.” He is also saying that the change is based on the Anubhasya commentary of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada.
My comment is as follows—-In the disciplic succession,the principles should be unchanged,,although the way to execute these principles may be adjusted by the bonafide acarya according to time,place and circumstance.So it is not possible that Prabhupada has changed the principle involved in this purport about accepting disciples.I think this is a very basic principle and cannot be changed.Srila Prabhupada’s realization can’t go against Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada’s commentary explaining the fundamental principle,right?
I hope I have made myself very clear.PLease try to reply so that my understanding is strengthened.
Begging for a reply,
Your servant,
Santosh
Today, I read the silliest set of arguments to defend Ritvivad. Prabhupada never said on the cover of his books as Acharya of ISKCON, he said Founder-Acharya of ISKCON. It means that he is the Founder-Acharya, but that doesn’t rule out the existence of other acharyas in ISKCON. Prabhupada is very clear on that. His Diety is present because he is the founder acharya of ISKCON. I am not understanding how does it prove that he will be the only spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada gave discipline to his disciples and now they are passing on the same discipline to us. Where lies the confusion? If that logic is true, then Krishna consciousness was present first to Bramha by Krishna. So Krishna has given us discipline, so He must alone be our spiritual master. 4 regulative principles was told by Krishna Himself, Prabhupada has just repeated it in English.
>>There is ALSO the FACT that ONLY INITIATED DISCIPLE will be Director.
There is also a statement that when Prabhupada is no longer with us then who is getting initiated he is granddisciple. There is also a statement that Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to become spiritual masters. In the so called “Final Order” there is a sentence by Prabhupada “INDIA, I AM HERE”. If we study this, it means that Prabhupada was speaking of the validity of this letter only till the time He was physically present.
Now if we say Prabhupada is always present through his books and instructions, in that case he is still present and the letter is still valid. If that is the argument, then it means that he is present throughout the whole world, not just in India. He could have generalized that he is present throughout the world. He was particularly speaking of a temporary situation and in that situation, he was able to take care of the Indian territory for Initiations. It is pretty logical.
I had posted this in other site as a comment where the arguments were published and it was deleted from there.
Santosh prabhu
Hare Krsna!
Your point is invalid the principle is Srila Prabhupada can UNDERSTAND what his Guru Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has written it is not up to his impudent “disciple” to correct him:
731208SB.LA Lectures
You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.
770227rc.may Conversations
Prabhupada: The system is: whatever authority has done, even there is mistake, it should be accepted.
Radha-vallabha: Oh.
Prabhupada: Asa-praya(?) That is ha… He should not become more learned than the authority. That is very bad habit.
760331SB.VRN Lectures
This transcendental writing does not depend on material education. It depends on the spiritual realization. You’ll find, therefore, in the comments of Bhagavatam by different acaryas, even there are some discrepancies, they are accepted as asat-patha. It should remain as it is.
The answer is LEAVE SRILA PRABHUPADA’S BOOKS “AS IT IS” .
Those who are seeking to correct Srila Prabhupada are impudent.
Rakesh wrote:
Today, I read the silliest set of arguments to defend Ritvivad. Prabhupada never said on the cover of his books as Acharya of ISKCON, he said Founder-Acharya of ISKCON. It means that he is the Founder-Acharya, but that doesn’t rule out the existence of other acharyas in ISKCON.
Mahesh: Founder-Acarya is NOT simply founder of ISKCON the HYPHEN in between Founder AND Acarya means Srila Prabhupada is the CURRENT ACARYA of ISKCON. This CURRENT ACARYA status will remain AS LONG AS there is a single book of Srila Prabhupada is on the planet. The CURRENT ACARYA status Srila Prabhupada holds for ISKCON. In case there is an acarya to replace Srila Prabhupada’s status then he must be PROMINENT because ONLY a PROMINENT Acarya is to be followed:
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
Rakesh wrote: I had posted this in other site as a comment where the arguments were published and it was deleted from there.
Mahesh: Our moderator is sleeping that is why they were not deleted here so PLEASE excuse him.
In the meanwhile please read the following to aquiant yourself with Ritvik philosophy as your questions have been already answered here:
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
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Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
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What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
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Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
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Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
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Ritvik – **Representative**
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
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Ritvik System Is Bonafide
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm
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Formalities
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
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Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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The rescuer must be liberated
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
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Tattva-darsinah
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
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He is not a liberated person
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
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The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
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Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
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Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
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Disciplic Succession
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
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Satyam – Truthfulness
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
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Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
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We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
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Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
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Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
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Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
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Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
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Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
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Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)
http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
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Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm
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Mahesh is right. Srila Prabhupada is the Prominent acarya. Those who he ordered to be “officiating acaryas” or “ritvik acaryas” or “ritvik representatives of the acarya” were to become qualified to be Siksa Gurus or “ideal teachers” to even be considered to be appointed to such a post in the future, but that doesn’t mean they had the license to change any of the FOUNDER-ACARYA’S guidelines, rules, or regulations. SP was the FOUNDER ACARYA and thus the ULTIMATE SPIRITUAL MASTER FOR ALL THE SOCIETY, and all instructions given in his institution were to conform to his original body of instructions.
(Srimad Bhagavatam 10.80.32) Translation
“My dear friend, he who gives a person his physical birth is his first spiritual master, and he who initiates him as a twice born brahman and engages him in religious duties is indeed more directly his spiritual master. But the person who bestows transcendental knowledge upon the members of ALL THE SPIRITUAL ORDERS OF THE SOCIETY is one’s ultimate spiritual master. Indeed, he is as good as My own self.”
———————————
Since all Siksa gurus in Iskcon are all meant to be held to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, how can any of them assert that they are empowered to make adjustments to formalities?
Why is it so important for them to claim they are Diksa Guru and that disciples are “theirs”?
It is quite humbling to admit that according to the birth one has taken according to the time place and circumstances of Kali Yuga, that they only way they can offer a formal Diska ceremony is on the order of their spiritual master to do so on his behalf. Maybe that is the point? Don’t you think the current crop of leaders in Iskcon could benefit from a little of that?
Mahesh wrote:
Your point is invalid the principle is Srila Prabhupada can UNDERSTAND what his Guru Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has written it is not up to his impudent “disciple” to correct him:
Mahesh, there remains a serious doubt as to whether the wording of that purport in the CC that was published in 1975 was actually what Srila Prabhupada wrote. YOU of all people know that his editors were making changes to the Srimad Bhagavatam without asking him, as early as 1972.
Bhakti Vikas claims to have seen the original TRANSCRIPT. This is not some DRAFT manuscript that Srila Prabhupada was working off of. I know the BBT editors have been using old DRAFT manuscripts of Srila Prabhupada’s to justify changing what he eventually transcribed into his purports.
This change is based on the Anubhasya, the commentary by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, from which Srila Prabhupada was translating. Following are images of the relevant section of Anubhasya, for the benefit of those who can read Bengali.
Bhakti Vikas wrote “I have seen the original transcript of Srila Prabhupada’s dictation of this section of his commentary, and it is clear that the editors at that time mistakenly rendered this part as it was first published. It is unsurprising that errors like this were made in the marathon to publish eighteen books in two months. This has now been corrected. The original transcript is with the Bhaktivedanta Archives.
So like I said, not only can this be easily verified, but he also provided the transcript of Srila Bhaktisiddhantas that MATCHED Srila Prabhupada’s original.
So your claim that we are jumping over Srila Prabhupada trying to understand Bhaktisiddhanta in opposition to what Srila Prabhupada had to say about it, is dubious under this new information. I admit these claims need to be checked out, but they make perfect sense.
And is seems you still have a problem coming to grips with the fact that there are many levels of discipleship, many levels of spiritual mastership, and that true broad minded intellectuals are meant to be able to discriminate between these.
So you are being rigid and hard headed, especially when in fact that purport speaks directly about teaching, instructing, AND BECOMING A SPIRITUAL MASTER.
Mark Prabhu: I admit these claims need to be checked out, but they make perfect sense.
Mahesh: They may make perfect sense to YOU, Prabhu. We on the other hand disagree. What’s more – those who disagree will NEVER accept REwriting of Srila Prabhupada’s ORIGINAL books. THAT is the CORE issue here: REWRITTING of Srila Prabhupada’s ORIGINAL books. There are TWO camps now.
So WHAT is the motivation for each camp:
1) Camp who accept Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA guru for AS LONG AS HIS BOOKS EXIST ON THIS PLANET.
2) Camp who want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru
72-01-20. Letter: Mandali Bhadra
So far your telling me that some devotees consider that because there may be some grammatical discrepancies in my Srimad-Bhagavatam, first canto, then they may also be allowed to translate with errors accepted, that is just like imitating Raslila. When you do all other things like Krishna, they you can do Raslila. So if these other writers can do like me and spread Krishna Consciousness all over the world by becoming big Vedic scholars, then they can do. If one is too big, there is no mistake. Arsapreyaya means there may be discrepancies but it is all right. Just like Shakespeare, sometimes there are odd usages of language, but he is accepted as authority. I have explained all these things in my Preface to First Canto.
Hare Krsna!
Mark Prabhu writes: “So you are being rigid and hard headed, especially when in fact that purport speaks directly about teaching, instructing, AND BECOMING A SPIRITUAL MASTER.”
Mahesh Prabhu has given the answer in his comments. Mahesh: “Founder-Acarya is NOT simply founder of ISKCON the HYPHEN in between Founder AND Acarya means Srila Prabhupada is the CURRENT ACARYA of ISKCON. This CURRENT ACARYA status will remain AS LONG AS there is a single book of Srila Prabhupada is on the planet. The CURRENT ACARYA status Srila Prabhupada holds for ISKCON. In case there is an acarya to replace Srila Prabhupada’s status then he must be PROMINENT because ONLY a PROMINENT Acarya is to be followed.”
IF I MAY ADD to the above comments of Mahesh Prabhu that make no mistake while some one is becoming a Spiritual Master as PROMINENT as Srila Prabhupada, s/he will not become the Acarya within Iskcon without the Order of Srila Prabhupada. Why, because within Iskcon Srila Prabhupada is present through His VANI and if and whenever the prominent personality arises, s/he has to accept the order to initiate new devotees on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf in His Iskcon to continue or ELSE s/he has to start his or her own establishment separate from Iskcon.
Then, the question comes what are the chances for some one to start his or her new establishment even though giving you the readers benefit of doubts the new prominent so called Acarya may seem bona fide when Srila Prabhupada writes in His Purport as such:
“TRANSLATION
Praying at the lotus feet of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha, always desiring their mercy, I, Krsnadasa, narrate Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, following in their footsteps.
PURPORT
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to preach the sankirtana movement of love of Krsna throughout the entire world, and therefore during His presence He inspired the sankirtana movement. Specifically, He sent Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami to Vrndavana and Nityananda to Bengal and personally went to South India. In this way He kindly left the task of preaching His cult in the rest of the world to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the acaryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world.
Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports to Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Seventh Chapter, describing Lord Caitanya in five features. [Adi7.171]
Hope the above explanation of Srila Prabhupada clarifies the issue under discussion.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL…
YS…… Amar Puri.
M: I didn’t notice a significant change in SP’s tone or tenor. He had just finished saying he would appoint them as officiating acaryas. Is the word acarya not present there?
Yes but the July 9th directive specifically defines officiating acarya/ritvik as ‘representative of the acarya’. They were to act on behalf of the acarya, not as acaryas in their own right. Thus officiating acarya is he who officiates on behalf of the acarya.
M: And when Tamala wonders if that is equivalent to “ritvik acaryas” SP replies Ritvik, yes. Straight up.
Yes, please note that Prabhupada says, “Ritvik, yes” not “Ritvik acarya, yes” so this is a correction of Tamala’s terminology. Are you the same Mark who made a fuss about a discrepancy in the Prabhupada murti and chastised those who refused to see your point? I think you were right on that but are you now displaying the same myopia?
M: And you are going to try and play word games based on that?
It’s the truth. Take it or leave it.
M: Do you think he would order them to be LESS than an ideal teacher? Which is the least weighty definition of acarya?
The point I’m making is that there is no order for them to be teachers, simply -“Ritvik, yes”- thus priests. There is no mention from Prabhupada of them being acaryas, thus teaching their own disciples.
(July 9th 1977)
Mahesh, I don’t agree with changing Srila Prabhupada’s original books. A Prabhupadanuga from Montreal has shown that some of them were changed by editors from Srila Prabhupada’s transcripts before they came to print. If that is the case, this might be a similar condition.
Let’s say Bhakti Viksas is not lying. That Srila Prabhupada’s TRANSCRIPT was altered by the editors, and was recently put back to the way it was supposed to be.
If we ever get a chance to put back Srila Prabhupada’s books to the original status, I would not bother correcting his spelling or grammar because ““Verses describing the name, form and qualities of Anantadeva, the unlimited Supreme Lord, are able to vanquish all the sinful reactions of the entire world. Therefore even if such verses are improperly composed, devotees hear them, describe them and accept them as bona fide and authorized.”
But if there was evidence that a change was made by disciples to the original transcript, and the editors noticed that and corrected it, I would lobby to keep it in.
And if we were to discover that indeed Srila Prabhupada meant to tell us to become instructors, teachers, preachers, and spiritual masters, and then in the same breath said “it is best not to accept any disciples” the only conclusion I could make would be he was referring to giving Diksa initiation on one’s own behalf.
It is very clear to me either way. A teacher gives discipline. This is common use of our language.
—————————————–
Amar Puri,
I am simply pointing out the different degrees. I never even hinted in my writings that anyone was to become more prominent. I really don’t think anyone is actually reading what I am writing judging from these comments that are totally mis characterizing my stated position. I re-read and edit everything I write to make sure there are no GLARING errors in what I am trying to say, though I admit I have handicaps in general writing ability.
Srila Prabhupada never ordered anyone to initiate disciples on their own behalf, past present or future. He indirectly ordered every one of his disciples to become Siksa Guru. Everyone had the ability to instruct according to what they honestly knew. As long as they did that, and did not instruct anything that Srila Prabhupada didn’t already tell them, they were acting as Guru. The way newcomers were to be sure that they accepted an uttama adhikari as spiritual master, was to accept him as their Diksa guru and Ultimate Spiritual master. Being sure to accept Srila Prabhupada’s word as the ultimate. That way, the neophyte or madhyama guru who supervised them could not get away with rendering insufficient guidance, because lets face it, Srila Prabhupada told his new people to obey their local authority. If that is not a guru, then I don’t know what is. He even told his new disciples to continue to obey their local authorities EVEN AFTER DISCOVERING AND ADMITTING THAT THE LEADER GAVE ADVICE THAT WAS AGAINST HIS OWN RULES. He insisted that they give the leader another chance, and if anything seemed wrong, to let him know again.
So in that May 28th conversation it is plain as day to me that he was just reaffirming what had always been the case, that brahmanas were to give Siksa. A brahmana may not give Siksa without being authorized by someone. How can it be understood that he would give the order for his senior most brahmanas to be the deciding vote on whether to accept or reject a TP’s recommendation without a formal order to hold this powerful office that only an ideal teacher acarya (small “a”) is meant to hold?
Satsvarūpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupāda: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarūpa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.
The subject of the discussion, “HE” is consistent. “HE” is the officiating acarya or ritvik acarya.
If you don’t agree with my explanation then I don’t see how you will ever be able to explain the above.
How can “he” be guru? Yet NOT be guru?
Which means you will NEVER be able to explain how SP uses Granddisciple. You will have to admit that Granddisciple means DIKSA!
Why is everyone afraid of using these words. You could eliminate the use of the word guru, siksa, diksa, and acarya. You could forever indicate one’s authority over another by the word “teacher”. If you like.
And that teacher could still go off the deep end and screw up their student’s life.
So then we would have to be like utopian communists and say everyone is equal there is no difference, everyone’s ideas are just as valid as others and we can all do what we want because my truth is right for me, blah blah blah.
My goal is to be specific about the use and definition of terms and how they apply. I think I covered the bases without giving anyone any licenses that Srila Prabhupada did not already directly give, or at least imply. I am open to being corrected, but so far I haven’t seen any reasonable refutation. I can admit I am wrong. Just show me with logic and reason.
Not that I expect anyone to accept my explanation even if I am right. Who cares? This is just TV. I don’t get together for kirtan and prasadam with anyone here anyway. This is just an exercise. If someone likes what I have to say and the truth in it that is great too.
Hare Krsna
Bhakta Mark or mark as you write, prabhu I agree you are giving your try. Your efforts are honest to quite appreciable degree, certainly much higher than my own. However this is not the point, we may go on speculating for kalpas, everyone’s mind is a separate universe and there never will be solution, nor union even between your own so called ritvik camp, or whatever it is anyway. The proof is just herein, on this very page, and you are struggling with so called pandits here no less than with so called GBC, ISKCON supporters as you label anyone opposed to you, no matter how they are against those who hide themselves under the acronyms. We are covered by illusion of being the body and mind, so long we are controlled by the source of that illusion, and our opinions are the very product of the same illusion. THIS IS THE POINT HERE. WE HAVE TO COME TO THE LEVEL OF BEING STRONG IN KRISHNA CONSCIOUS PRACTICES AND JUST LISTEN AND REPEAT WHAT THE ACARYA SAID, WITHOUT INTERPRETATION. AND HE NEVER SAID “I WILL GIVE DIKSHA FOR EVER, AND THUS YOU ARE BANNED FROM BECOMING INITIATING GURUS”. HE NEVER SAID THIS!!!!!!
Y.s. bj
Bhakta marka prabhu said:” It is quite humbling to admit that according to the birth one has taken according to the time place and circumstances of Kali Yuga, that they only way they can offer a formal Diksa ceremony is on the order of their spiritual master to do so on his behalf. Maybe that is the point? Don’t you think the current crop of leaders in Iskcon could benefit from a little of that?” At least some of they say it, moreover they said it, and in some cases at least it seems to me they believe it as well. So, are they now ok? Just asking prabhu:)
y.s.bj
Most of them (FisKcon gurus) of course say that they initiate on behalf of what they call ISKCON (what is rather FisKcon according to my understanding), this clearly seems like complete bogus sectarian commitment. However I do hear some of them say (they are individuals after all) to do initiation in strong adherence to their Sri Guru Srila Prabhupada. What do you think, about this, Mark prabhu? My understanding is that if it is so, then why they are not strongly against the bogus GBC of West Bengal supervision and license right?
y.s. bj
The word ‘ritvik-acarya’ is never used in Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Srila Prabhupada never used words and concepts that do not exist in vedic culture so why should we?
This misnomer sprung from the ever fertile imagination of TKG not Srila Prabhupada.
Bhakta Jarek,
You wrote: HE NEVER SAID “I WILL GIVE DIKSHA FOR EVER, AND THUS YOU ARE BANNED FROM BECOMING INITIATING GURUS”. HE NEVER SAID THIS!!!!!!”
Prabhu, I only act on what Srila Prabhupada actually ordered. I use simple methods of arugment (namely logic and reason) to defend his orders when debating those who do not accept those orders in descending method, as they are apparently approaching from the empiric ascending process.
In a debate, your offering above would be rejected. Your premise is that the Ritvik system is not to be continued. Yet you support your presence with a negative statement. You cannot prove a premise with a negative assertion. You can only support it with positive evidence. If you can show where Srila Prabhupada ordered for the ritvik system to end at any time, I will accept that.
Without being able to do that, you and others often mention that it is IMPLIED because he often ordered his disciples in a broad manner to be Gurus and Spiritual masters.
To that I reply that Guru can be (generally) Diksa or Siksa. When he ordered his disciples to be Siksa guru on his behalf, this is simply common sense. Because if he found out they weren’t instructing his specific rules and regulations, he would chastise them.
When he ordered his disciples to initiate on his behalf, it was ALWAYS under the condition that those new initiated were CONSIDERED SRILA PRABHUPADAS INITIATED DISCIPLES. That was the specific order under which they were to act as “ASSISTANT OR REPRESTATIVE of another Diksa Guru. In other words it was not a complete order to be Diksa guru.
The order to be Siksa Guru was unlimited as long as conditions were met, and these are the conditions for Siksa Guru since time immemmorial. Until a Siksa Guru is becomes an Uttama adhikari and is ORDERED to become a Diksa Guru and initiate disciples on his own behalf, he cannot make adjustments to formalities according to time place and circumstance.
There was never an order to become Diksa Guru and initiate on their own behalf.
So I don’t need to hear him say, “you cannot become Diksa Guru in Iskcon”. Because I am already only following what he actually ordered. I would not take it on myself to do something he didn’t order that would make him have to tell me not to do it. Understand?
As far as current Iskcon Gurus saying that they are initiating on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, that is nice. But they also claim that the disciple is their initiated disciple do they not? And if a small few might actually CLAIM that they are only representatives and the new Bhakta is the initiated Diksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada, then are they backing that up with their actions? Are they going along with all of the sadhana and managerial changes that have been implemented in the Diksa Guru’s asrama? Or are they leaving and reverting to the old system? Or are they at least standing up publicly and DEMANDING THAT HIS GODBROTHERS FOLLOW HIS LEAD AND FIX ALL THE CHANGES?
Until the actions follow the words, I am not impressed.
And as far as Bhakta Hugh belaboring about me equating the terms “officiating acarya” to “ritvik acarya”.
Direcly after Srila Prabhupada used the term “officiating acarya” Tamala equated it with “ritvik acarya” If Srila Prabhupada TRULY disagreed with that characterization, I think he would have said more than “RITVIK, YES”.
If it was an IMPORTANT ISSUE, he would have said NO. NOT THAT. He may be considered “ritvik priest” or “just ritvik”. The point is, it was not a big difference so he said YES!
I really don’t think such a small semantic changes the essence of the argument. In addition, I am not formally declaring my intention to change the title of Ritvik Representative of the Acarya, to officiating acarya or ritvik acarya. I am simply making a point in my essay that any “small a” acarya with a qualifier behind it is to be considered a siksa guru under strict conditions of the Institution. At best.
Hare Krsna
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Bhakta Hugh says: The word ‘ritvik-acarya’ is never used in Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Not only that, but there is no tape recording of Srila Prabhupada ever using that terminology. However, he did use the term “officiating acharya” once, in the May 28, 1977 conversation. But he obviously changed his mind about using that inherently confusing terminology because he never used it again. From that point on, he used the term “ritvik representative of the Acharya” or simply “ritvik.”
Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. One can understand the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he can become guru. Or one who understands his guru’s order, the same paramparā, he can become guru. And therefore I shall select some of you. (hums)
Satsvarūpa: That’s all the questions.
From this link of May 28 conversation of Srila Prabhupada http://krishnakatha.com/?g=163492
the selection of appointment of so called officiating acarays never took place despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada did mention as such.
Why one may ask ? Because any body’s guess is as good as mine. Thus, Srila Prabhupada never authorized any one of his disciple to become Guru in order to accept disciples.
So where is the question of grand disciples and the disciples of the disciples arise as Bhakta Mark writes ;
” If you don’t agree with my explanation then I don’t see how you will ever be able to explain the above.
How can “he” be guru? Yet NOT be guru?
Which means you will NEVER be able to explain how SP uses Granddisciple. You will have to admit that Granddisciple means DIKSA!
Hope it clarifies, Bhakta Mark.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
This is correct that Prabhupada did not use this word ritvik or words of similar effect because he would directly present the term’s meaning in his lectures, morning walks and conversations: ON BEHALF OF.
If you search vedabase you’ll find tons of examples where Prabhupada spoke of acting ON BEHALF OF.
In fact, the whole presentation of transcendental knowledge is based upon acting on behalf of.
Srila Prabhupada: “So actually we have taken a very responsible task on behalf of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (Letter to disciple, 15 May, 1972)
When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja left this world he would leave his disciples in exactly that situation of acting on behalf of their spiritual master.
“[Srila Bhaktisiddhanta] never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. … If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. … Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.”
(Srila Prabhupada letter to Rupanuga, April 28, 1974)
Amar
Your interpretation of that statement from the 5/28 conversation does not harmonize with the earlier portion of that conversation, nor with the context of His history of telling his disciples to teach and preach and saying things like the following to his GBC men.
Srila Prabhupada already gave a general order to be Siksa Guru, just like Lord Caitanya did. But SP specifically only ordered initiations on his behalf. It is implied that Siksa gurus would only instruct according to Srila Prabhupada’s guidelines since he was FOUNDER-ACARYA of a society. Thus being Siksa Guru on his behalf, as every Siksa guru in history is supposed to be doing so on the behalf of their Spiritual master by taking into considerations the conditions their spiritual master places on that Siksa.
Sometimes those Siksa gurus are authorized to initiate on their own behalf. In our case, we were not.
There is no contradiction here.
And for Pratyatosa das, please refer to my latest reply to Bhakta Jarek. at 5:10pm on 1/9.
If anyone claims that a ritvik priest is not meant to be a siksa guru, that is a shame.
And when someone makes the logical association between “ritvik” and “officiating acarya” they may be doing so in order to falsely imply that, as acarya, they have certain licenses.
I am agreeing that there is a relation between the terms, but proving that there is no license to act outside the parameters of the FOUNDER-ACARYA.
However, I appear to be misunderstood on this point. Just hoping to clarify here.
Please allow Srila Prabhupada to clear this up.
Gurūn is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, the guru who first initiates one with the mahā-mantra is to be known as the initiator, and the saints who give instructions for progressive advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are called instructing spiritual masters. Adi 1.34 : PURPORT
There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple’s spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. Adi 1.47 : PURPORT
74-07-20
New Vrindaban
My Dear Satyabhama and Paramananda:
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. If Kirtanananda Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken a siksa guru. Guru sastra sadhu. The spiritual master is one, that is a fact. Kirtanananda Swami may be taken a sadhu not spiritual master, or as instructor guru. I don’t think he is saying anything against our principles, so what is the wrong?
You have written that the devotees here say that you cannot know me, but only Kirtanananda Maharaja can know me. But, if Kirtanananda is a disciple and he can know me, and you are also a disciple, why you cannot know me?
Letter to: Sri Galim — Delhi 20 November, 1971 : 71-11-20 :
To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense?
Srila Prabhupada says ; ” The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. (Letter to Madhudvisa) “.
In reply to the above Mark Prabhu says ; ” Amar
Your interpretation of that statement from the 5/28 conversation does not harmonize with the earlier portion of that conversation, nor with the context of His history of telling his disciples to teach and preach and saying things like the following to his GBC men. ”
In the above statement where does it say that the Instrucor gurus accept their own disciples ? Where is such an ORDER from Srila Prabhupada. ?
These GBC men were not on that platform to accept disciples of their own as it appears from Srila Prabhupada’s statement. That is why Srila Prabhupada did not select any one of them for an appointment as per May 28, conversation. Srila Prabhupada writes clearly ; ” ……… This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. (Letter to Madhudvisa) “.
So what and where is your problem of dis-harmonize , Mark Prabhu to understand and accept Srila Prabhupada’s statement as it is ?
I hope you do answer all these questions after carefully consideration, Mark Prabhu.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……. Amar Puri.
RRdd. thank you for sharing your kind post to which I agree one hundred percent.
Hari BOL.
YS….. Amar Puri.
You wrote: HE NEVER SAID “I WILL GIVE DIKSHA FOR EVER, AND THUS YOU ARE BANNED FROM BECOMING INITIATING GURUS”. HE NEVER SAID THIS!!!!!!”
PD: “Forever” is a long time. No, what he actually said was he might name someone in the future “when the training is complete,” i.e. when someone has graduated from their current levels of kindergarten children, to become mature and purified devotees, and who has passed the PHD levels of brain surgeon’s license. Rocana for example has not passed even kindergarten class level because he still supports the deviants posing as acharyas process.
In other words once someone has attained the levels of uttama, then he will be certified as the guru, not actually named as such, he will be self effulgent, and it will be self-evident he is the empowered acharya. That is, if that ever occurs, it may or may not, this is all speculation.
Even Madhyama means anartha nivritti, one who has given up anarthas. I have not seen that in anyone that I know of so far.
As for Kailash Chandra, he is not even in Kindergarten class yet. He is hiding out in the Moab mountains, because thinks the goal of life is to save his giant bags of stools, pus and urine body from drowning when the Pacific eats up California.
He is so frightened like a little paranoid cry baby, he cannot even attend kindergarten class with the rest of us. And so he is hiding in the school bathroom, so he is AWOL from kindergarten, because he cannot let go of his mommy’s apron strings and get into class like the rest of us. What a freaking cry baby, he is crying so badly for his mommy to save him from the ocean, he is not even welcome in the kindergarten class due to his wailing like a little baby. He is not a kanistha, because even us kanisthas have no fear of the ocean eating us up. If the Pacific ocean decides it is going to eat me up, I am not going to try to fight the entire Pacific ocean, I am going to chant Hare Krishna and be happy. That is called kanistha. ys pd
OK. Puranjana as usually gets his strength from blunder, however I agree absolutely with his comment so far when he says ;”In other words once someone has attained the levels of uttama, then he will be certified as the guru, not actually named as such, he will be self effulgent, and it will be self-evident he is the empowered acharya. That is, if that ever occurs, it may or may not, this is all speculation.”
Yes, and then all the ritvik crap will be like a big electric fence which will disable the access to such devotee, at best, it may also result in offending him when he goes on with his actions after ordered by his Guru, perhaps Srila Prabhupada, who knows? This may be speculation whether such person comes (I do however understand the order may be given also to madhyam devotee) but you may call it also, enthusiasm, hope or faith.
y.s. bj
Dear Amar Puri,
I added a second comment for further clarification, but the webmaster of this website withheld it. I will reprint it again here below.
You said: “In the above statement where does it say that the Instructor gurus accept their own disciples ? Where is such an ORDER from Srila Prabhupada. ?
On May 28th he explained that the officiating acaryas that he was appointing were gurus and they would have disciples. On my behalf, on my order you become guru. He is granddisciple
Why do you continue to deny that a student is a disciple? Why do you continue to deny that a teacher is a Siksa Guru? What you continue to fail to realize is that the siksa disciples of these Siksa gurus are not initiated disciples. These teachers were NOT given orders to initiate disciples on their own behalf. Doing things on your own behalf implies certain exclusivity and license to instruct without having to refer to the guidelines of another.
Please allow Srila Prabhupada to clear this up.
Gurūn is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, the guru who first initiates one with the mahā-mantra is to be known as the initiator, and the saints who give instructions for progressive advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are called instructing spiritual masters. Adi 1.34 : PURPORT
There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple’s spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. Adi 1.47 : PURPORT
74-07-20
New Vrindaban
My Dear Satyabhama and Paramananda:
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. If Kirtanananda Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken a siksa guru. Guru sastra sadhu. The spiritual master is one, that is a fact. Kirtanananda Swami may be taken a sadhu not spiritual master, or as instructor guru. I don’t think he is saying anything against our principles, so what is the wrong?
You have written that the devotees here say that you cannot know me, but only Kirtanananda Maharaja can know me. But, if Kirtanananda is a disciple and he can know me, and you are also a disciple, why you cannot know me?
Letter to: Sri Galim — Delhi 20 November, 1971 : 71-11-20 :
To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense?
———————————————————-
So Amar Prabhu, do you get the sense?
Hare Krsna,
I had posted a comment yesterday.Why has it been deleted?
Jarek prabhu: Yes, and then all the ritvik crap will be like a big electric fence which will disable the access to such devotee, at best, it may also result in offending him when he goes on with his actions after ordered by his Guru, perhaps Srila Prabhupada, who knows? This may be speculation whether such person comes (I do however understand the order may be given also to madhyam devotee) but you may call it also, enthusiasm, hope or faith.
=====================
[PD: And in the meanwhile, Rocana, Kailash etc. act as an electric fence checking our program of the worship of Srila Prabhupada. So we may or may not act as an electrical fence, this is called mental speculation, but these folks are for sure and certain RIGHT NOW acting as an electric fence against the worship of the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada as of now, and as a point of fact.
As soon as someone wants to worship the pure devotee, Rocana is writing about the “Church of Ritvik” where he says we are the posthumous, post samadhi, post mortem bogus Church deviation. Has anyone ever described pure devotees this way? And now he is trying to block funding for the archives.
So! He is blocking SRILA PRABHUPADA now. Of course at the same time Rocana’s “2/3 show of hands” voted in gurus like Bhakti Marga, BVKS and so on, … they are following a very similar process to the Vatican’s “voting of the Pope” system. Rocana is in the Church of the Voted in Vatican Pope. Incidently, the Church has the Ex Cathedra principle, the Pope may not or may not be pure in his personal actions, but whatever he says is pure doctrine, ummm, like the GBC gurus are saying. Rocana is part of the Catholic Church’s Vatican voting system, thats all he ever has been. He was part of the 1986 reform where they started all this Vatican voting, he has the Church idea, not us? ys pd
Dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu,
Actually, I was not saying that Prabhupada doesn’t understnd his Guru’s words.In fact,he is the only one who perfectly understands them.My argument was that–Prabhupada may not have written those words in the first place…it may have been a typing mistake or it might have been changed by his disciples even while he was physically present.So, how can we simply reject BVS like this.I felt you were diverting the topic by only talking on the validity of ritvik system.Mark Prabhu was not talking about the guru issue,he was only speaking about the valid arguments provided by BVS about restoring the purport to what it actually is,by referring to the Anubhasya commentary.
Santosh wrote:
My argument was that–Prabhupada may not have written those words in the first place…
Mahesh: YOU AND MARK PRABHU PROVIDE US EXACT PROOF FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA IN WRITING THAT HE HAS NOT WRITTEN THOSE WORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
The onus is ON YOU.
Changevadis – NO BRAINS!
M: “On May 28th he explained that the officiating acaryas that he was appointing were gurus and they would have disciples. On my behalf, on my order you become guru. He is granddisciple”
That is not mentioned at all, you are imagining things. The wording, “on my order you become guru” indicates something that is yet to come, if ordered. Thus this is not in itself the order. As mention previously any ambiguity from this conversation is resolved by the July 9th directive which clearly states the purpose of this appointment ..
This is in harmony with the May 28th conversation which begins with ..
Thus it is not a siksa issue.
M: Why do you continue to deny that a student is a disciple?
Yes but student and disciple of Prabhupada not the ritvik/officiation acarya.
M: Why do you continue to deny that a teacher is a Siksa Guru?
Yes but this was not the purpose of their appointment as ritviks.
M: If anyone claims that a ritvik priest is not meant to be a siksa guru, that is a shame.
The point is there is no specific mention to that effect. Only ..
Thus in many cases it is possible that a ritvik priest may never communicate with the initiate other than to give the name and ask the necessary questions related to the ceremony.
What Mark Prabhu needs to ACCEPT is Ritvik DUTIES are DEFINED in writing:
“for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation.”
That’s is IT.
You can not have Ritviks DISCIPLE. This is NOT stated. You can word play “HARMONISE ”
to suit your particular thinking.
We have to take FACTS as they stand.
It is not authorized for neophytes to act as agents and represent the acharya, except when neophytes like Rocana are talking all the time, acting as agents and representatives of the acharya? What am I missing? Is this not self-defeating circular reasoning? Either that or Rocana is saying, no one else can act as an agent, except, me? What am I missing? ys pd
Mark Prabhu, please answer these questions ;
Is it not a FACT that so many others like minded people including your goodself here on this web site giving each other learning Instructions of Srila Prabhupada ?
Did any one of us say and accept the fact that so and so is my or your disciples ?
The fact remains that are we not all disciples of Srila Prabhupada ?
I ask you humbly please read carefully what and when you quote Srila Prabhupada’s quote as it is.
Hari BOL.
YS…… Amar Puri.
Srila Prabhupada says CONTRADICTION means rascal and one has motive.
Kindly read the followings ;
Back to Prabhupada, Issue 27, Spring 2010
By Krishnakant
One sign that ISKCON leaders are conceding defeat in the wake of the overwhelming evidence which the IRM has presented, is their attempt to simply get rid of this evidence by changing Srila Prabhupada’s words!
We present here two examples of their attempt to do this in regard to two of the IRM’s key arguments.
“Become guru”
We highlighted in the previous article how the GBC’s authority for claiming diksha guru successors to Srila Prabhupada is shattered by the presence of the statement “It is best not to accept any disciples” in the Caitanya-caritamrta. Unable to rebut Srila Prabhupada’s clear words, ISKCON’s leadership has now decided to get rid of this troublesome quote by simply pretending it does not exist!
Book change attempt – 1
GBC-elected guru hoaxer HH Bhakti Vikash Swami (“BVKS”) proposed eliminating this unanswerable quote by claiming one word had been incorrectly transcribed:
“After all, Caitanya Mahaprabhu ordered all his followers to become guru. So the ritvik-vadis say that that means you should become a siksha guru and not a diksha guru. And in Prabhupada’s purport to Madhya-lila verse 130, which comes just after that famous verse amara ajnaya guru haya tara ei desa, “Become a guru and deliver this land”, there is a statement that “It is best not to accept any disciples”, it’s in Prabhupada’s purport. I got the original transcript of this and there are mistakes in Prabhupada’s books made by his editors, especially in the Caitanya-caritamrta, which was a rush job, and actually that should say that “It is best not…”, because Prabhupada dictated and the transcribers heard it and typed it and then they edited. That should be “It is best not to accept many disciples” not “any disciples”. One letter makes a lot of difference.”
(BVKS, lecture, February 9th, 2009)
So unable to deal with the evidence that effectively kills his bogus guru position, BVKS states that we should simply change the word “any” to “many”. He alleges he has proof to justify this change, but it is proof he has not presented, and we will see in the next section why.
Book change attempt – 2
BVKS forgets that earlier he had actually given a completely different reason for why this statement from Srila Prabhupada should be changed, as given below:
From: Dravida (das) ACBSP (San Diego – USA)
Date: 04-Apr-07 17:06 (10:06 -0700)
Cc: (BBT) Errors (in) English Books [1385]
Reference: Text PAMHO:13303610 by Brahma Muhurta Das (NE BBT)
Subject: Madhya 7.130
————————–
Received the following from Bhaktivikasa Swami on 1 March:
————————–
[Quotes Madhya Lila 7:130]
Relevant section from Anubhasya: ‘ami sarvottama vaisnava sisya karile garvvarupa bhajana nasta haya’–ei utkatabhaktabhimana tyaga kariya dainyera sahita suddhanamagrahanacara o suddhanama pracararupa gurura karya
karile jadapratistharupa visaya-taranga prabala haite pare na.
NB: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta doesn’t state not to accept disciples, but the opposite: to give up the mentality by which one prefers not to accept disciples.
————————–
Got ot (see attached file), which confirmed BVK Swami 100%.
Your servant,
Dravida dasa
————————–
At 03:17 PM 4/4/2007 +0200, Brahma Muhurta Das (NE BBT) wrote:
is
>> One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee,
thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. < Madhya 7.130
should be
>>One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking “I am a first-class devotee, so it is best not to accept any disciples.” Such thinking should be avoided. < Madhya 7.130
Dravida Prabhu,
Could you please explain why this has to be changed?
Ysbmd
Here BVKS does not allege any error in transcription, but rather claims that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati gave a different explanation, and that’s why Srila Prabhupada’s words must be changed.
Whichever way you look at it, this does show that the Caitanya-caritamrta, as it has stood for 35 years, states that “become guru” refers only to siksha gurus, and ISKCON’s leadership has recognized this, hence their desire to change it.
Srila Prabhupada must authorise
In The Final Order we show that any diksha gurus in ISKCON would need to be specifically authorised by Srila Prabhupada, by quoting the following verse from the Srimad-Bhagavatam:
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.8.54, purport)
The key part of this quotation is “who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master”. This means that the GBC cannot palm us off with some vague notion that becoming diksha guru in ISKCON is “automatic”, or that it is a “timeless order”, or that it is “tradition” and so on. Rather, they need to show authorization from Srila Prabhupada directly, and without this their current bogus gurus program is smashed. And, as we have shown repeatedly, they have been singularly unable to provide such authorization. So what to do? Simple. Just get rid of this troublesome quote! And that is exactly what Bhakti Charu Swami, another GBC-elected guru hoaxer, has done in his Bengali translation of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. He has simply deliberately MISSED OUT “is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master”, when translating the verse above – the literary equivalent of “splicing”. We say “deliberately”, because this mistake was pointed out many years ago, but the latest 7th edition, 2009, printing of the Bengali Bhagavatam keeps the omission intact, for obvious reasons.
Conclusion
The two quotes used by The Final Order discussed above, deliver a death-blow to the current ISKCON GBC guru system. Otherwise why try to change Srila Prabhupada’s words in those sentences instead of following them? Having realized that the game is up, ISKCON’s leadership can only resort to a last refuge – deliberate cheating – to try to prop up their unauthorized occupation of Srila Prabhupada’s position.
Hari BOL.
YS….. Amar Puri.
It is in black and white. and I explained this before but obviously did a poor job.
Satsvarūpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupāda: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarūpa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.
The SUBJECT of the discussion is “that person”.
Prabhupada refers to the subject saying “HE is guru”
Satswarupa refers to the same “HE”, saying BUT, “HE” does it on YOUR behalf.
Prabhupada does NOT correct him, and say no, I WAS THE HE I WAS REFERRING TO.
Prabhupada DOES say YES.
“HE” is consistently referring to the same person. “HE” is the officiating acarya or ritvik acarya”
Prabhupada just got done saying the HE (the ritvik) is guru. Then when Satswarupa believed there was a seeming contradiction that the Guru was initiating on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, SP explained it.
In my presence, you should not become guru. But I am ordering you, so you can do it on my behalf.
If you don’t agree with my explanation then I don’t see how you will ever be able to explain the above.
How can “he” be guru? Yet NOT be guru?
Which means you will NEVER be able to explain how SP uses Granddisciple. You will have to admit that Granddisciple means DIKSA!
————————————————-
Gurūn is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, the guru who first initiates one with the mahā-mantra is to be known as the initiator, and the saints who give instructions for progressive advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are called instructing spiritual masters. Adi 1.34 : PURPORT
NOTE: All saintly devotees who give instructions are ALREADY accepted as Siksa gurus or Instructing spiritual masters.
————————————————-
There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple’s spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions. Adi 1.47 : PURPORT
NOTE: it is implied that “the other” is not a liberated person fully absorbed in meditation. But that other is a kind of instructing spiritual master, who invokes “THE DISCIPLE’S spiritual consciousness by giving relevant instructions. Sounds like a neophyte Siksa Guru to me.
————————————————————————-
My Dear Satyabhama and Paramananda:
Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter undated and have noted the contents carefully. If Kirtanananda Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken a siksa guru. Guru sastra sadhu. The spiritual master is one, that is a fact. Kirtanananda Swami may be taken a sadhu not spiritual master, or as instructor guru. I don’t think he is saying anything against our principles, so what is the wrong?
You have written that the devotees here say that you cannot know me, but only Kirtanananda Maharaja can know me. But, if Kirtanananda is a disciple and he can know me, and you are also a disciple, why you cannot know me? 74-07-20 New Vrindaban
NOTE: Kirtananananda OR ANYONE OF US can be taken as Siksa Guru (if we speak what SP speaks). In this case Prabhupada notes that Spiritual Master is one, so we may be considered sadhu OR instructor guru, NOT spiritual master. So in this case, there appears to be a contradiction but it is harmonized that he is speaking of DIKSA initiating spiritual master, since there can only be ONE of those.
————————————
To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense? Letter to: Sri Galim — Delhi 20 November, 1971
NOTE: Here he is saying that it is not disobedience to one’s initiating spiritual master to call someone else spiritual master, as long as they are teaching purely what his Original initiating spiritual master has taught.
————————————————–
So all Ritviks are Gurus. They may or may not have occasion to give any Siksa to their disciples, but if they do, and it is based on Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, they have authority. No more or less authority than ANY other devotee in the movement who might give them good Siksa at any given time or for any length of time. Most all devotees will form long and intimate relationships with anyone BUT their Ritvik. But that was irrelevant to the context of the conversation on May 28th.
This is the whole point. It was NOT some special license. It is just the truth. And no order to become Diksa guru and initiate disciples on one’s own behalf was given. Srila Prabhupada played the game perfectly, but we do him a disservice by trying to make it seem like he didn’t say what he actually did, just because we might not understand it, and thus we can’t explain it in a way that suits our goal of backing Ritvik initiations. That is what I have strived to do, and I have seen no logical presentation that has changed my mind.
Hare Krsna
Mark Prabhu: Which means you will NEVER be able to explain how SP uses Granddisciple
How many times have we got to explain to you that Granddisciple can ONLY happen if Srila Prabhupada gives the ORDER to be DIKSA GURU?
There was NO Order. There was NO MAHA-BHAGAVATA . They were ALL CONDITIONED SOULS PRETENDING TO GIVE DIKSA . Plain and simple it was a Guru HOAX. This is WHY he did NOT name any individual as DIKSA GURU. Just because there is a GAP of THOUSANDS OF YEARS in between Srila Prabhupada and NEXT Acarya to come does NOT mean there is NO grand disciple. The GAP of Grand disciple can take place MANY MANY MANY MANY THOUSANDS OF YEARS. In the meanwhile Srila Prabhupada is PROMINENT so we FOLLOW HIM:
ONLY Srila Prabhupada will lay claim to be PROMINENT ACARYA to be FOLLOWED because of his books,cds,tapes, disciples, temples so extensive over the world for FUTURE generations OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS:
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
WHEN I order
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Become Guru by Order, That’s All
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
Mark Prabhu: Which means you will NEVER be able to explain how SP uses Granddisciple
Mahesh: WHY NOT? the point is GAP of thousands of years OR MILLIONS OF YEARS between PROMINENT ACARYAS is NOT a new thing. Srila Prabhupada and NEXT Acarya GAP can be THOUSANDS or MILLIONS of years. ” SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM”
Did Srila Prabhupada say that there HAS to be a grand disciple IMMEDIATELY after his passing? – NO!
****THERE WAS NO TIME FRAME – ACCEPT IT!**** Srila Prabhupada is PROMINENT NOW and so we FOLLOW HIM. WHY push for a grand disciple when there is NO OTHER ACARYA who has SUCCEEDED Srila Prabhupada IN DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS?
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED Srila Prabhupada is the LAST name in Disciplic Succession of ACARYAS:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge BY ACCEPTING THE ACARYA. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
68-02-13. Letter: Upendra
My Guru Maharaja was in the 10th generation from Lord Caitanya. We are 11th from Lord Caitanya. The disciplic sucession is as follows: 1. Sri Krishna, 2. Brahma, 3. Narada, 4. Vyasa, 5. Madhva, 6. Padmanabha, 7. Nrihari, 8. Madhava, 9. Akshobhya, 10. Jayatirtha, 11. Jnanasindhu, 12. Purusottama, 13. Vidyanidhi, 14. Rajendra, 15. Jayadharma, 16. Purusottama, 17. Vyasatirtha, 18. Laksmipati, 19. Madhavendra Puri, 20. Isvara Puri (Advaita, Nityananda) 21. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, 22. (Svarupa, Sanatana) Rupa, 23.(Jiva) Raghunath, 24. Krishna dasa, 25. Narottama, 26. Visvanatha, 27. (Baladeva.) Jagannatha, 28. (Bhaktivinode) Gaura-kisora, 29. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Sri Barshabhanavidayitadas, 30. SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA.
Mark Prabhu, there are lot of holes in your interpretation with twist and turn of the quotes of Srila Prabhupada which arise QUESTIONS I put forth to you to which you have never addressed those questions. I wonder WHY and yet you keep on insisting same over and over again which arises the same very QUESTIONS I brought forward to your attention for the answer and you have gracefully ignored all of them.
OK. I try one more last time. Here it is Mark quotes ; ” ………… You have written that the devotees here say that you cannot know me, but only Kirtanananda Maharaja can know me. But, if Kirtanananda is a disciple and he can know me, and you are also a disciple, why you cannot know me? 74-07-20 New Vrindaban ”
Kirtanananda is a disciple and you (the person asking question to Srila Prabhupada) is also a disciple. Both are disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Is that not a FACT ? What is the difference between both of them ? The same is here between you and I, we are both disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Are we not ? Are you my Siksha guru or am I your Siksha guru ?
You chose not to change your mind on account of your free WILL. So be it. You still have lots of questionable hole to fill in the blanks in your own interpretation of the simple quotes of Instructions of Srila Prabhupada like so many others such as Bhakti Vikas Swami, and other bogus gurus, Rocana dasa DOR and the list goes on…………
Please do not put your words in people’s mouth. I humbly beg from you to kindly carry the same unadulterated message of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada to make not only your life sublime but others also to whom you may be in contact with in the future in order to avoid misunderstanding and misleading like Kirtanananda and his devotee who was replied by Srila Prabhupada directly in the quote above.
Hope it meets you well, Mark Prabhu.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL….
YS…… Amar Puri.
The conversation is based on philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.
Few points:
1)If you see the END PRODUCT of 28th May conversation ie July 9th 1977 Order it EMPHASIZES the disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s AFTER 1ST AND 2ND INITIATION. They are NOT his grand disciples.”After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA by giving a spiritual name”
2) Satsvarupa and Tamal Krsna are MISTAKEN in thinking in 28th May conversation: they THINK the RITVIK gives DIKSA and THE disciples belong to Ritviks. That is what THEY WANT. See Room Conversation Bombay, April 22 below they were CONDITIONED SOULS admitted by Tamal Krsna. But July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order CORRECTED their MISTAKE.
Disciples initiated are Srila Prabhupada’s.
Ritvik ONLY conducts 1st and 2nd Initiation “ritvik–representative of the acarya, FOR THE PURPOSE OF performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. ” ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA.
3) The term REGULAR guru and GRAND DISCIPLES are applicable “WHEN I ORDER” ie the philosophy is discussed in terms of SIMULTANEOUS ONES and DIFFERENCE. This means when one is a MAHA-BHAGAVATA then he can GIVE DIKSA based on SRILA PRABHUPADA’S ORDER becomes prominent ACARYA (follow the PROMINENT ACARYA) it is THEN the grand disciple comes into existence. Until there is a PROMINENT ACARYA there will be a GAP few thousand years? few million years? THAT Acarya SUCCEEDS Srila Prabhupada in the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
4) Even if you accept that “When I order” refers to Ritviks as SIKSA gurus still that does NOT make the Ritviks as proprietor of disciples. WHY? because :
a) They DO NOT give the discipline. ALL DISCIPLINE 16 rounds, 4 regs, books, cds, tapes is given by Srila Prabhupada. DISCIPLINE MAKES DISCIPLE.
b)Their functionality is stated as FOR THE PURPOSE OF performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. ” ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. That is ALL.
5) There can ONLY be ONE initiator Srila Prabhupada AND disciples belong to him:
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. THERE MAY BE MANY SPIRITUAL MASTERS WHO INSTRUCT, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
770528me.vrn Conversations
Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
Tamala Krsna: No, he’s asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupada: They’re his disciple.
Tamala Krsna: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That’s clear.
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
Prabhupada: When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
Hoping this finds you all well.
Your servant,
Approved: Tamala Krsna Gosvami
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Secretary to Srila Prabhupada
[Srila Prabhupada’s signature appears on the original]
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED Srila Prabhupada is the LAST name in Disciplic Succession of ACARYAS:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge BY ACCEPTING THE ACARYA. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. THE SPIRITUAL MASTER MUST BE IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION FROM KRSNA. THE PREDECESSORS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE HIS SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER, HIS GREAT-GRAND SPIRITUAL MASTER AND SO ON, WHO FORM THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
68-02-13. Letter: Upendra
My Guru Maharaja was in the 10th generation from Lord Caitanya. We are 11th from Lord Caitanya. The disciplic sucession is as follows: 1. Sri Krishna, 2. Brahma, 3. Narada, 4. Vyasa, 5. Madhva, 6. Padmanabha, 7. Nrihari, 8. Madhava, 9. Akshobhya, 10. Jayatirtha, 11. Jnanasindhu, 12. Purusottama, 13. Vidyanidhi, 14. Rajendra, 15. Jayadharma, 16. Purusottama, 17. Vyasatirtha, 18. Laksmipati, 19. Madhavendra Puri, 20. Isvara Puri (Advaita, Nityananda) 21. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, 22. (Svarupa, Sanatana) Rupa, 23.(Jiva) Raghunath, 24. Krishna dasa, 25. Narottama, 26. Visvanatha, 27. (Baladeva.) Jagannatha, 28. (Bhaktivinode) Gaura-kisora, 29. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Sri Barshabhanavidayitadas, 30. SRI SRIMAD BHAKTIVEDANTA
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
So far I have heard alot of non sequitur protestations. But I have not seen anyone go through the 5/28 conversation point by point and give an explanation that can satisfy all contexts and multiple known usages of the terms involved. Except for my attempt.
Amar Puri has made the accusation that I have twisted words, made “interpretations” and my presentation is full of holes, but no specific point for point refutation. And Amar’s question about are we all disciples of one another was answered by Srila Prabhupada in those letters I reproduced. As far as contradiction means rascal, I am NOT the one who sees contradictions. I am trying to harmonize the contradictions that are being cited by the ritvik camps and the “traditionalist” camps, while remaining pro ritvik and simply defining terms. The ritviks are once bitten twice shy and so deny certain words mean what they mean because they believe rascals will take advantage of them. I say the rascals will take advantage no matter what, so be brave and use terms as they are.
Mahesh writes: How many times have we got to explain to you that Granddisciple can ONLY happen if Srila Prabhupada gives the ORDER to be DIKSA GURU?
My reply: Prove it. (Hint, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is grand-disciple of Jagannath das babaji, even though Jagannath das babaji never gave formal diksa initiation to Srila Bhaktivinode).
Mahesh writes: The term REGULAR guru and GRAND DISCIPLES are applicable “WHEN I ORDER” ie the philosophy is discussed in terms of SIMULTANEOUS ONES and DIFFERENCE. This means when one is a MAHA-BHAGAVATA then he can GIVE DIKSA based on SRILA PRABHUPADA’S ORDER becomes prominent ACARYA (follow the PROMINENT ACARYA) it is THEN the grand disciple comes into existence. Until there is a PROMINENT ACARYA there will be a GAP few thousand years? few million years? THAT Acarya SUCCEEDS Srila Prabhupada in the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS.
My reply: this is your concoction and makes no sense in the context of the May 28th conversation, the parampara, the quotes I gave about Siksa gurus, nothing.
Mahesh writes 4) Even if you accept that “When I order” refers to Ritviks as SIKSA gurus still that does NOT make the Ritviks as proprietor of disciples.
My reply: For the millionth time please stop putting words in my mouth. I never even remotely equated Siksa gurus with proprietorship. And I was very clear about the obviously limited relationship a ritvik would have, if any, with a new disciple. I was also clear that Srila Prabhupada had to answer those questions on May 28th according to the technical truth of the matter, because he was in the midst of a difficult battle with ambitious men. They were going to take license no matter what, but SP defined all terms with integrity knowing that sincere devotees could handle it and would not twist the truth to their aggrandizement.
Mahesh #4 continued: WHY? because :a) They DO NOT give the discipline. ALL DISCIPLINE 16 rounds, 4 regs, books, cds, tapes is given by Srila Prabhupada. DISCIPLINE MAKES DISCIPLE.
My reply: This is disingenuous. When Srila Prabhupada is not physically present, who is going to give the vani to new disciples? Who is going to dispense it to them gradually over time? Who is going to supervise their progress over time and give them guidance and correction? Where I come that is called giving discipline. These kind of statements are what will keep people from taking you seriously. It should be enough that you CAN CLAIM that all discipline must fall within the guidelines given by the Founder Acarya, and hold disciplinarians accountable based on that.
Not to mention, a devotee can be and should be tremendously inspired and intimate with the senior most devotee who instructs them and has authority over them (likely NOT the ritvik). Spending their entire devotional life knowing that person might just lead them to love and value them just as much as Srila Prabhupada who they never meet in person. They might even consider that person instructing spiritual master! Oh no! They might even simultaneously consider Srila Prabhupada their Grand Spiritual master and Diksa Guru. Oh no! They will never go back to Godhead now.
Mahesh writes: “There was no Order”
My reply: Srila Prabhupada tricked them. He had been ordering Siksa gurus from day one. Day one. 1966. And hundreds of times since then. The quotes I gave in my previous comment were just some of the more prominent and definitive. He had to admit he was ordering them to be guru to keep them afloat. The July 9th letter was the death knell to any misconception they had that guru meant Diksa guru who initiated on their own behalf.
Mahesh writes: How many times have we got to explain to you that Granddisciple can ONLY happen if Srila Prabhupada gives the ORDER to be DIKSA GURU?
(Mark Prabhu)My reply: Prove it. (Hint, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is grand-disciple of Jagannath das babaji, even though Jagannath das babaji never gave formal diksa initiation to Srila Bhaktivinode).
Mahesh: you are using the ACARYAS as an EXAMPLE. As I mentioned before Disciplic succession of ACARYAS can SUCCEED another ACARYA. Your TWISTED logic is CONDITIONED SOUL SIKSA GURU RITVIK has to have disciples.
May the 28th conversation It is sheer TWISTED logic on your side for everyone to accept the CONDITIONED SOULS Ritviks as siksa guru so that OTHERS may be called grand diciples. SIMPLY BOGUS!
(Mark prabhu)My reply: This is disingenuous. When Srila Prabhupada is not physically present, who is going to give the vani to new disciples? Who is going to dispense it to them gradually over time? Who is going to supervise their progress over time and give them guidance and correction? Where I come that is called giving discipline. These kind of statements are what will keep people from taking you seriously. It should be enough that you CAN CLAIM that all discipline must fall within the guidelines given by the Founder Acarya, and hold disciplinarians accountable based on that.
Mahesh: DO NOT CONCOCT Siksa guru from Ritvik Representantive whose duties are CLEARLY DEFINED:
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
“ritvik–representative of the acarya, FOR THE PURPOSE OF performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation.
This is ALL Srila Prabhupada says. Do NOT CONCOCT that there exists a relationship that one becomes automatically a grand disciple when he accepts Ritvik Initiation from an individual.
You are manufacturing YOUR term “harmonise” between the Ritvik as siksa guru and the initiate as grand disciple.
Srila Prabhupada mentions NO SUCH THING. It is YOUR manufacture.
M: Satsvarūpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupāda: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarūpa: But he does it on your behalf.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.
The SUBJECT of the discussion is “that person”.
Prabhupada refers to the subject saying “HE is guru”
Satswarupa refers to the same “HE”, saying BUT, “HE” does it on YOUR behalf.
Prabhupada does NOT correct him, and say no, I WAS THE HE I WAS REFERRING TO.
Prabhupada DOES say YES.
“HE” is consistently referring to the same person. “HE” is the officiating acarya or ritvik acarya”
No, there are 2 different he’s in this part of the conversation quoted. The ‘he’ Satsvarupa is referring to is the ritvik, whereas the ‘he’ that Srila Prabhupada is referring to, could only be himself, since he is the only initiator within the ritvik system. Despite Satsvarupa’s obvious confusion Srila Prabhupada adapts his answer to match Satsvarupa dasa Goswami’s actual concern, namely the status of these future ritviks.
M: Prabhupada just got done saying the HE (the ritvik) is guru.
No, he says the initiator is the guru which is himself. Sometimes the curious theory is put forward that when Srila Prabhupada says ‘he is guru’, he is really talking about the ritviks themselves. This is quite bizarre since Srila Prabhupada has only just defined the word ritvik as ‘officiating acarya’- literally a priest who conducts some type of religious or ceremonial function. In the July 9th directive Srila Prabhupada clarifies precisely what ceremonial function these priests will conduct. They were supposed to give spiritual names to new initiates, and in the case of second initiation, chant on their Gayatri thread – all on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf. That was it. There is no mention of them being gurus (siksa or diksa).
The directive specifically defines ritvik as ‘representative of the acarya’. They were to act on behalf of the acarya, not as acaryas in their own right.
This being the case why would Srila Prabhupada cloud the issue by calling the ritviks ‘guru’?
If they were gurus all along, why not just call them that to save confusion?
The conversation can only make sense if we take it that Srila Prabhupada is the ‘guru’ who was initiating new disciples, through his representatives, the ritviks.
M: Then when Satswarupa believed there was a seeming contradiction that the Guru was initiating on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, SP explained it.
In my presence, you should not become guru. But I am ordering you, so you can do it on my behalf.
No, he doesn’t say this either. We see from the conversation that being guru also depends on receiving a specific order from Srila Prabhupada – ‘On my order’. He repeats this condition on line 13 – ‘But by my order’, and once more on line 25 – ‘When I order’. It is quite clear then that this cannot be the order proper, otherwise why say later in the conversation ‘When I order’?
So basically we are having that debate about what is genuine guru-tattva since 1998 when Harikes resigned.
There were some discussions about genuineness certificate of ISKCON gurus when folks like Bhagavan, Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Bhavananda, etc. resigned. Harikes was kind of top dog, when he left that was the last straw. Many devotees were alarmed at this point.
When reading through present posts it seems nothing has changed very much since 1999 when VNN.org published all those scholarly pieces on genuine guru-tattva.
Now, 14 years later it is evident that,
a) ritviks and followers of the living guru doctrine persist in their viewpoints.
b) ISKCON splitted into all those camps like Narayana Swami, Paramadvaiti Swami, Puri Maharaja, Tripurari Swami, etc., etc.
De facto Prabhupada’s former ISKCON became multiple competing mini missions, who preach very little and mainly struggle to survive every single day. Compared to Prabhupada’s performance to bring in the heavy artillery for fighting kali-yuga there is presently rather attempts being made for self-preservation and nothing more.
Mainstream media never mentions anything Hare Krishna like it used to be in the seventies – Vaishnavas preaching boldly notably absent. Of course, all Vaishnavas are well aware about kali-yuga getting stronger. But there seems no need for action. Especially among GM groups.
Thanks to the internet, scholars of religion are now informed about Vaishnavism – Prabhupada’s former movement – splitting up. And keep silent. There is no response from all those scholarly observers who formerly would meet Prabhupada.
In sum, situation is very similar to 1937 after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja left. Of course where they also discussing, analyzing how to stop this break up. But things were too much run out of the rudder in order to easily correct.
Prabhupada’s approach is to exactly do what his guru has ordered him to do, marching forward without looking left or right. For us this means to seek for sincere devotees and live in the association of such devotees under bona fide GBC. Or did I miss something? Any suggestions?
Bhakta Hugh,
“When I order” Is rhetorical and referring to what happens when he orders.
These guys knew the philosophy pretty good by the, which is why they were putting the hard questions to Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada answered in a way that was technically correct, but did not give any licenses.
Your version is what we might WISH HE SAID. For years I used to say to myself, why didn’t Srila Prabhupada just stand up and set these guys straight once and for all? Why didn’t he just stand up out of his seat and point his finger in Tamala’s face and laugh and say, YOU will never be guru, you are a GOAT. Why didn’t he do this, why didn’t he do that.
I have gotten over that. I have gotten past that. I am now completely neutral and have 10 years of studying the philosophy at least 2 hours a day if not more. So I can listen to the audio and hear very clearly what he is saying, the tone and the context, and translate it according to the philosophy. It gives them no special license if the conversation is translated the way I do. But it agitates other allies of mine because they have been poisoned to the use of certain terms since some have abused those terms.
I just can’t agree to do that. Just imagine 5 or 10 generations from now. Be objective. Srila Prabhupada was always meant to be the Initiating Spiritual Master of his Society of which he is the Founder-Acarya and his Instructions are the ultimate authority. But anyone competent to teach is a guru, and any student is a disciple. Unless you want to do away with the words altogether. Or redefine them, as if that will stop someone from cheating if they are only called a teacher or preacher.
Well it looks like Bhakta Mark wanna be a guru club member but his frustrations are he is not admitted being a member of the guru club. That is why he is not answering the questions I put forth in my every comments addressing him to answer.
So far that reason, I simply waste my time with him because I gave my last best try to make him some sense by putting up questions out of the quote he uses to strengthen his living guru position as to how not to become unqualified guru and as a result of it it is better not to accept disciples as Srila Prabhupada warns us ALL, Thus, the conversation does not go any where because Bhakta Mark is playing offensive and defensive games in his remarks when he comments which I find totally waste of time.
Hari BOL.
Mahesh,
I would much prefer to disconnect the July 9th letter from the May 28th conversation altogether, and based on the technical language used, I believe it is bona fide to do so.
There are many in the world who disagree with that since the language is techinically “very close” and also in essence very similar; vis a vie, ritvik representative of the acarya is easily equated with an Officiating acarya, as one who is appointed to officiate is not necessarily at the stage of being acarya. They may be in the process of becoming ideal teacher, but not quite there yet. Thus a representative.
I simply am attempting to find a way to explain the terminology used by Srila Prabhupada on May 28th as in harmony with the July 9th letter for those unwilling to disconnect the two, to show it is possible that he was ordering his appointees to be Siksa guru. Which I admit is a redundant order, as he has ordered all his Brahmana disciples to be Siksa Guru. BUT in the context of the time place and circumstance, it was a deft diplomatic maneuver in my opinion, and technically did not make them Diksa gurus, and technically anyone who has a steady instructor throughout their lifetime can consider them their Spiritual master and their spiritual master’s master as their great spiritual master, even if they are an initiated disciple of the great spiritual master.
None of those technicalities give license for anyone to instruct outside the guidelines found in the Vani of the Founder Acarya. What they DO is harmonize apparent technical contradictions. And if you hadn’t noticed, there is very little harmony or meaningful progressive cooperation among disciples these days.
Here is my very very last attempt not only to reply and satisfy Bhakta Mark but for the INFORMATION of many others also who are sincere and serious to find the TRUTH of the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada :
Mark Prabhu, I quoted IRM’s refutations of Bhakti Vikasa Swami’s concoctions for a reason. The reason being to show that these psuedo devotees are quite prepared to cut and splice and omit Srila Prabhupada’s words to suit their selfish needs. Read what I pasted. Now if they can cut, chop and change purports why is it so difficult for you to comprehend that these rascals could do a splice job on the May 28th tape? There are a lot of devotees who say they’ve heard the tape and it is perfectly fine. I am lead to believe that the version Sulochana Prabhu heard before he was brutally assassinated was different from what most of us have access to. If you can just please use your common sense you will be able to understand that Srila Prabhupada is free from the 4 defects and doesn’t contradict himself so why on earth would he say that the ritviks initiate when the very definition of a ritvik is one who OFFICIATES. Just from this even an idiot would know the rascals did a splice job. It is basically a test of how well we understand basic English. If somebody splices a lecture of Srila Prabhupada making him say ” Krsna is not the cause of all cause, Lord Siva is” would you be foolish enough to believe it, of course not. You could deduce that there must be some tampering. Therefore I say that too much emphasis is being placed on a tape, a tape that has been chopped. Why make so much out of it. The July 9th letter is of greater importance that the may 28th. If it was the other way around then why didn’t Srila Prabhupada authorize for the tape to be sent to the 108 temples? please answer this point my friend. Even for argument sake nothing was spliced on the tape the final product of that meeting with His Divine Grace was the July 9th. If somebody wants to modify the definition of ritvik as per July 9th by going back to a tape on May 28th he is actually neglect Srila Prabhupada’s final request. Another point is if you want to clearly understand the function of a ritvik my suggestion is check the different references in the Srimad Bhagavatam. It mentions things like assistants to the Acarya. There is so much you can get from the Srimad Bhagavatam. Why are you holding on to a tape that is so doubtful. OFFICIATORS ARE NOT INITIATORS THEY ARE OFFICIATIORS BAS!!!!
APPENDIX 20
These two tape transcripts are the “evidence” used by the bogus gurus to fool their Godbrothers into thinking that they had been appointed gurus. This first version of the “appointment” tape is the one that appeared in both Ramesvara’s book (Appendix 2), and Jadurani’s 1980 expose of the “gurus” caned The Bona Fide Spiritual Master and the Disciple. Therefore, this version is the only one to date that has been widely circulated. Since this version can easily be misinterpreted to sound like an appointment of “gurus,” we can safely say that this transcript was made by the conspirators. We can only assume that Jadurani never had a copy of the actual tape. Because she quoted the bogus transcript in her book, most devotees reading it thought it to be a bona fide transcript.
THE BOGUS MAY TAPE
Sat: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
SP: Yes. I shall recommend some of you, after this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.
Tam: Is that called ritvik-acarya?
SP: Ritvik. Yes.
Sat: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and…?
SP: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Sat: But he does it on your behalf?
SP: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf. On my order, amara ajnaya guru haya, he is actually guru. But by my order.
Sat: So they may also be considered your disciples?
SP: Yes, they are or their disciples, but consider who…
Tam: No. he is asking that these ritvik-acaryas, they are officiating, giving diksa, the people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they?
SP: They are his disciples.
Tam: They are his disciples?
SP: Who is initiating. His grand-disciple.
Sat: Then we have a question concerning…
SP: When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciples. Just see.
THE ACCURATE MAY TAPE
This version we have compiled is perfectly accurate in all detail-pauses, unclear words, etc. If the GBC has a version that is more clear, and can be heard better, then let them come forward with it now. Otherwise, when we say a segment of words is indistinguishable, that means that not only ourselves but numerous other devotees also could not make out what was being said. We have an excellent copy of the tape and are using the best equipment available.
Sat: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
SP: Yes. I shall recommend some of you, after this is settled up (local business that they had been discussing), I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.
Note: Here Prabhupada establishes that the following conversation is going to be about officiating gurus before his departure, not about gurus “at that time when he is no longer with us.”
Tam: Is that called ritvik-acarya?
SP: Ritvik. Yes.
Sat: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and-
Note: This is a meaningless question, and so Prabhupada didn’t even wait for him to finish it. He “who gives” is guru-Srila Prabhupada. Satsvarupa was no doubt thinking of he who “officiates” the initiation but his wording was off. The ritvik does not “give” the initiation; he officiates the initiation. Satsvarupa’s question is not clear, and so the answer cannot be confirmed to support any conclusion.
SP: -He’s guru- He’s guru.
Note: The first “He’s guru” broke into Satsvarupa’s words, and so Prabhupada repeated it. That’s the only reason. Srila Prabhupada is simply stating his own relationship to his disciple; the one “who gives” the initiation is guru. It is possible that he was referring to the ritvik as being guru, but in that case it would mean siksa-guru. In many places Prabhupada said that his senior disciples may be taken as siksa-guru of the neophytes if they repeated perfectly what they have heard. Guru simply means teacher in this sense.
Sat: But-he does it on your behalf?
Note: Here Satsvarupa introduces the delusion. In his mind he interpreted the answer as meaning the ritvik is the initiating guru.
SP: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru. So on my behalf. On my order, “amara ajnaya guru haya.” (3 sec. pause) He’s actually guru, but by my order.
Note: This is the most important answer. In fact it is so significant that at the end of this Appendix we quote the entire section in Caitanya-caritamrta where this quote comes from. Srila Prabhupada is being questioned as to what will be the system of guru after his departure. To this line of questioning Prabhupada quotes a verse from the Caitanya-caritamrta. that elaborately explains how me is “actually a guru.” Prabhupada is not going to recite the whole section for Satsvarupa right then and there. Satsvarupa knows how to read and so Prabhupada simply gave him the key words. Thus all Satsvarupa had to do was look it up. Prabhupada’s intentions for guru after his departure are very clear. Anyone who can read can see who Prabhupada was appointing guru.
Sat: So they may also be considered your disciples?
Note: Here Satsvarupa further reveals the delusion he is in. He has now fully convinced himself that the new devotees are actually his own disciples.
SP:…(words)…they’re disciples, but consider. (2 sec. pause) Who.
Note: Any interpretation of this partial statement is simply mental speculation. It is significant however that Prabhupada made this response in a tone of chastisement, as though he wanted Satsvarupa to give up his delusion. Tamala could see the confusion and so he interjected:
Tam: No. He is asking that these ritvik-acaryas… (Prabhupada: Hmmm)…they are officiating, giving diksa,…(hmmm)…the people who they give diksa to…(hmmm)…whose disciple are they?
Note: We have to give Tamala credit here for picking up that Satsvarupa is in delusion. Satsvarupa’s questions were not at all in line with Prabhupada’s answers and so Tamala wants to make it perfectly clear. Tamale’s wording is very concise. It is also significant that three times during this question Prabhupada said, “Hmmm”. Prabhupada was speaking very clearly at this time, and so there is no reason for any of this tape to be ambiguous-unless it was tampered with.
SP: They are (d)-his-disciples.
Note: just before the word “his” there is an unmistakable dip in sound. There can be no doubt that the word “his” was dubbed in; most likely in place of the word “my.” Why would Prabhupada say “his” disciples to a clear question like Tamala’s? Even if there were no dip, we would know that it was dubbed simply on the philosophical basis, but with the dip, there is no doubt. Who did the dubbing??
Tam: They are his disciples.
Note: This response confirms the dub. From the original bogus transcript, everyone thought Tamala was repeating what Prabhupada said. But that was an easy trick they thought they could get away with. This was not spoken as a question to Prabhupada as the bogus transcript led one to believe. This was immediately and softly spoken on the side to Satsvarupa simply confirming that the new devotees were Prabhupada’s disciples. Had Prabhupada actually said “his disciples,” then Tamala would have said to Satsvarupa, “They are our disciples.” One word dubs are relatively easy but even then they couldn’t make it perfect. Tamala is talking to Satsvarupa, so, when he says, “his disciples,” Prabhupada is “his”.
SP: Who is initiating. (3 sec. pause) His grand-disciple.
Sat: Yes. (5 sec. pause) Then we have a question conc-.
Note: Please keep in mind, Tamala had just told Satsvarupa that the new devotees were Prabhupada’s disciples. That was very clear at this time. So even though these last words cannot be interpreted (cuts may have been made), Satsvarupa had heard all he wanted to and so is going on to the next question. Some tampering may have been done on all these sentences. Why would Satsvarupa have gone onto the next point? This last statement could not have made sense to him. Further questions would have been necessary. At least we could expect that Tamala would have been in there clarifying the statement further if there was even the slightest hint that he was going to be a guru. The whole conversation has very unnatural sound to it and so we know it was heavily tampered with. But as yet we have not found out who did it. But we win.
SP: When I order you become guru, he becomes regular guru. That’s all.
Note: The GBC tried to interpret the following June tape as that “order” mentioned here as though Prabhupada had all of a sudden changed the whole philosophy and decided that pure devotees can be appointed after all. It is significant that Prabhupada uses the term “regular guru.” As of yet we have not found an exact definition for that term from the books. It can be taken as a guru under regulations or as an ordinary guru which would mean siksa-guru. It can’t possibly mean a diksa-guru since diksa-gurus are not appointed or ordered.
It is significant that all these answers are to Tamale’s question-the first clear question. But the answers in this chopped up tape do not confirm any conclusion and so more in needed. So even though Prabhupada said, “that’s all”, they needed to add the following sentence to clinch the appointment theory.
SP: (7 sec. delay) He becomes…(inaudible word(s))…disciple of my disciple. (Click) just see.
Note: This fine is an obvious dub. Not only does the background noise drop out, but the speed and tone of Prabhupada’s voice dramatically changes also. The “just see” is again in a radically different tone and volume from the previous words. This tape was the only “evidence” the “gurus” ever had to support their claim to divinity. This can be proven, and when it is, the conspirators will be facing serious charges in court.
Sat: Next we have a question about the GBC. (end tape)
Note: There are some very significant points to bring out about this tape. One is that Prabhupada’s health and speech were not bad at this time and it would have been no problem to ask more specific questions to seek proper clarification. There are so many good reasons why it is obvious that this tape was tampered with. One is, if it was not tampered with, why was it not available to everyone? It was extremely well guarded. This would have been just the opposite if it actually said what they claimed. But because they were unable to make a good dubbing job, they kept it super-confidential. It is available however from DAS if anyone doubts the validity of this transcript. When Sridhar Maharaja told Jayapataka that a ritvik guru does not make one an initiating guru later, Jayapataka told Sridhar Maharaja, referring to this tape: “Prabhupada has given explicit desires.” Sridhar Maharaja believed him, and from the conversation that immediately ensued, the entire bogus guru manifesto was compiled.
JUNE TAPE
Tam: Srila Prabhupada, we are receiving a number of letters now. People are wanting to get initiated. So, up until now, since you were becoming ill, we asked them to wait.
SP: The local senior sannyasis can.
Tam: That’s what we were doing formerly. The local GBC sannyasis were chanting on their beads and they were writing to Your Divine Grace. And you were giving a spiritual name. So should that process be resumed or should we…(There is an interlude where Tamala discusses the spiritual master taking the disciple’s karma). That’s why we’ve been asking everybody to wait. I just want to know if we should continue to wait some more time.
SP: No. Senior sannyasis.
Tam: So they should continue to…
SP: You can bring me a list of sannyasis, I will mark. You can do, Kirtanananda can do…(word?) Satsvarupa can do. So (pause) these three can do.
Tam: So supposing someone is in America. Should they simply write directly to Kirtanananda or Satsvarupa.
SP: Nearby. Jayatirtha can do.
Tam: Jayatirtha.
SP: (word?)…Bhagavan can do.
Tam: Bhagavan.
SP: And he can do also (pause). Harikesh.
Tam: Harikesh Maharaja.
SP: Five, six men divide. Who is nearest.
Tam: Who is nearest. So persons wouldn’t have to write to Your Divine Grace. They could write directly to that person.
SP: (hmmm)
Tam: Actually, they are initiating the person on Your Divine Grace’s behalf.
SP: Hmmm.
Tam: Those persons who are initiated are still your-.
SP: Second initiation. We shall think. Second.
Tam: This is for first initiation. Okay. And for second initiation, for the time being we should-.
SP: Again have to wait. Second initiation, that should be…
Tam: Some devotees are writing you now for second initiation. And I’m writing them to wait a while, because you are not well. So can I continue to tell them that?
SP: They can do second initiation.
Tam: By writing you?
SP: No. These men.
Tam: These men. They can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who would give initiation is doing so on your behalf.
SP: Yes.
Tam: You know that book I’m maintaining of all your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?
SP: Hmmm.
Tam: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesh Maharaja, he should send the person’s name to us here, and I’ll enter it in the book. (Long pause) Is there someone else in India that you want to do this.
SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.
Tam: Jayapataka Maharaja.
SP: You are also in India. (Long pause) You can note down these names.
Tam: Yes, I have them. (The list is read, and Srila Prabhupada adds two more names-Hrdayananda and Ramesvara.
SP: (Long pause) So without waiting for me, whoever you consider deserves. That will depend on discretion.
Tam: On discretion.
SP: Yes.
Tam: That’s for first and second initiations?
SP: Hmmm.
NOTE: One very obvious question: If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape? Why was Tamala still trying to get Prabhupada to say something else? The answer is obvious. They hadn’t yet conceived their plot and dubbed the May tape. There is no mention in this tape of the ritviks becoming anything special after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. As such there is no question of construing an appointment of gurus from these two transcripts. But since the May tape was tampered with, not only is it not valid evidence, but it is conclusive evidence as to the demoniac nature of the “gurus”-just the opposite of the divine nature they claimed the tape represented.
Another significant point is that Bhavananda and Hansadutta were not named in this June tape. Their names appeared on the letter issued to all centers that Prabhupada signed, but they were not named in this tape. No doubt some “good reasons” were given to Prabhupada later on to include them even though Bhavananda had only a year previously been caught by Pippilai dasa pants down, having sex with a Bengali boy in Mayapur. Just months previously, Prabhupada had said that Hansadutta was “praying daily that I die so that he can become guru.” Prabhupada was aware of the character of all these ritviks. Ritvik has no special authority whatsoever. He simply gives initiation on the guru’s behalf. Otherwise why would Prabhupada say, “whoever is nearest.” The common argument, introduced by Sridhar Maharaja is that, “Well, it only makes sense that if Prabhupada made them ritviks, they must be the most advanced devotees.” Sridhar may have even been the first to introduce that idea even though two years previously Sridhar had said that ritvik implied no special position.
Aside from all that, Tamala Krsna has directly confessed (on tape) in the Pyramid House Talks, Dec. 3, 1980 that, “Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn’t appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.”
The “gurus” placed a great deal of importance on this tape to substantiate their claims, but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru. But Prabhupada, seeing past, present, and future, knew that this tape would be used to exploit the devotees. And so within this tape he planted one very important line that gives us the all-important clue as to what is the authoritative explanation on the subject of guru after his departure. He gave that clue by quoting “amara ajnaya guru hana.” Nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that a bona fide guru, a guru who actually sees Krsna face to face, can be appointed. The statement, “He’s actually guru, but by my order,” simply means that everyone is ordered to become guru by repeating what Prabhupada has taught us. It is not necessary to wait to see Krsna face to face to become guru and preach. Everyone should preach immediately by repeating what Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya have spoken. That is the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru hana” as explained below by Prabhupada. Everyone must preach from whatever level of realization he is on. But that kind of guru, and the actual liberated guru, are two different things. One is called diksa, and the other is called siksa. Anyone who repeats the message purely can become siksa-guru immediately. One’s wife, one’s mother, a prostitute, a beggar, a Godbrother, etc. Everyone is ordered to become guru in that sense. It is not possible to be ordered to become a pure devotee. The bona fide diksa-guru must be a pure devotee that is actually liberated. That is the conclusion of all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on these two types of gurus. This May tape does not in any way contradict those instructions.
Srila Prabhupada’s quoting the verse from Caitanya-caritamrta, “amara ajnaya guru hana” (Cc. Mad. 7.128) is so significant we are herein quoting the entire section from the Caitanya-caritamrta. We strongly suggest that the devotees read it carefully. It fully substantiates the conclusions in given in Chapter Nine.
“The brahmana (Kurma) begged Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life. (Cc. Mad. 7.126)
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Don’t speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of Krsna always.” (Cc. Mad. 7.127)
Purport by Prabhupada: “It is not advisable in this age of Kali to leave one’s family suddenly, for people are not trained as proper brahmacaris and grhasthas. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised the brahmana not to be too eager to give up family life. It would be better to remain with his family and try to become purified by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly under the direction of a spiritual master. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If this principle is followed by everyone, there is no need to accept sannyasa. In the next verse Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises everyone to become an ideal householder by offenselessly chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and teaching the same principle to everyone he meets.”
“Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in the land.” (Cc. Mad. 7.128)
Purport by Prabhupada: “This is the sublime mission of ISKCON. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra…. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped…. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.”
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further advised the brahmana Kurma, “If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company.” (Cc. Mad. 7.129)
Purport by Prabhupada: “This is an opportunity for everyone. If one simply follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His representative, and chants the Hare Krsna mantra, teaching everyone as far as possible the same principle, the contamination of the materialistic way of life will not even touch him. It does not matter whether one lives in a holy place like Vrndavana, Navadwipa or Jagannatha Puri or in the midst of European cities where the materialistic way of life is very prominent. If a devotee follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lives in the company of the Lord. Wherever he lives, he converts that place into Vrndavana and Navadvipa. This means that materialism cannot touch him. This is the secret of success for one advancing in Krsna consciousness.
“At whosoever’s house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma. (Cc. Mad. 7.130)
Purport by Prabhupada: “The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles and be freed from the contamination of material life…. To protect his preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Caitanya-caritamrta.
Hope the above presentation is helpful for those who are sincere and serious in following the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
In 1997 the entire 22 minutes of the May 28th tape was analyzed by Norman Perle. That person said there were “strong signs suggestive of falsification”.
On April 15 2012, a devotee named Giri Nayaka das performed an analysis on the audio recording which we all had access to on the Prabhupada vision website. His equipment was far more sensitive, and he was much better a judge than Norman Perle as to whether words were in context as Norman Perle had no reference to the philosophy. In addition, Giri Nayaka das gave us detailed analysis and results of each minute of recording, and showed that the sections of the tape that Norman Perle found “start/stops” that seemed out of place were NOT from the 2 minutes under discussion here.
May 28th Tape Analysis
Giri-nayaka das – Slovenia: Previous forensics analysis from august 26th 1997 did the following: “The analysis procedure included computer waveform analysis, spectrographic chart analysis, FFT spectrum frequency analysis and a critical aural review of the audio.”
The following analysis gives more in depth analysis. It includes before used methods, namely:
– computer waveform analysis,
– spectrographic chart analysis,
– FFT spectrum frequency analysis and a
– critical aural review of the audio,
and in addition includes other methods, namely:
– ambient analysis
– positional analysis
– spectral phase analysis
Let me also add that I, author of this analysis, am well acquainted with Srila Prabhupada’s way of speaking, through years of hearing his recordings. I’m also well acquainted with the way Srila Prabhupada’s recorded tapes sound, them being recorded on tape machine, which was following Srila Prabhupada from day to day. Official forensic from 1997 had no such benefit…
You can read his full analysis at the following link.
http://prabhupadavision.com/2012/04/may-28th-tape-analysis/
Two weeks later on April 27, Puranjana das reprinted the original 1997 brief 2 page analysis on Norman Perle’s letter head.
http://prabhupadavision.com/2012/04/tape-original-analysis/
In the comments section, Giri Nayaka das carefully explained with FURTHER detailed analysis how Norman Perle’s analysis was not only inconclusive, but couldn’t possibly relate to the 2 minute portion where officiating acaryas are spoken of.
Anyone with an objective conscience must agree after listening to the audio, and viewing Giri’s detailed results, the 2 minute portion was not tampered with.
As for the interpretation of what it means, there appear to be many according to the opinion of the translator, including myself. So be it.
I consider the June conversation in which Srila Prabhupada begins to name Ritviks that he would later put in the July letter, another example of why Srila Prabhupada said what he said on May 28th. As you can see, Tamala continues to “remind” Srila Prabhupada that the new initiates are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Hoping beyond hope that Srila Prabhupada will change his mind and correct him at some point, or perhaps trip up. LOL.
Like I said in my last post, FOR MY PURPOSES the July 9th letter stands alone and needs no qualification. For the purposes of debating those who wish to drag the May 28th conversation into the mix, I have no problem allowing that Srila Prahbupada was deftly giving a NON CONCESSION by equating officiating acaryas with gurus, using a Jedi mind trick to keep a carrot dangled in front of the crazed lunatics who stood before him.
I wish everyone would stop accusing me of saying that Srila Prabhupada ordered the ritviks to initiate their own disciples. It is getting boring.
Bhakta Mark: “I wish everyone would stop accusing me of saying that Srila Prabhupada ordered the ritviks to initiate their own disciples. It is getting boring.”
Prabhupada was well aware that his disciples were neophytes and fall-down within ISKCON was a common scenario.
So much so that at one point Prabhupada wanted to suspend his previous strategy of installing temple communities based on brahmana qualification.
The very servant with whom he discussed all this was Hari-Sauri das who later as a sannyasa also fell down.
Prabhupada: […] “But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect.”
(February 14, 1977, Mayapura)
Bhakta Mark arrived at the conclusion that newly initiated devotees are disciples of that ritvik by whom they were initiated. However, when that ritvik resigns (just like the pope who resigned yesterday) do they have to look for another ritvik to become his disciples? Or are they save, disciples of Srila Prabhupada?
Another brilliant analysis by Bhakta Mark Prabhu, copy/pasted (with minor editing) here:
http://rtvik.com/?TP=3959
Good point, yes when Srila Prabhupada was here it was quite common to find leaders falling down, blooping, having illicit sex with the brahmacharinis, and all kinds of things. One sannyasa was seen by me having illicit sex in a field in India with one of the bramacharinis on our party, and so on and so forth. This was and still is a common problem, hence, the only secure position is to take shelter of Srila Prahbupada.
I think everyone is gradually recognizing that taking shelter of conditioned souls is — not working.
An ISKCON guru supporter has also been arguing with me that “everyone of the disciples becomes guru when the guru departs.” I said, ummm, how can we manage an institution where everyone is claiming to be the successor to God? This sounds like a mad house? We cannot run an institution on the principle that everyone is going to be the successor, there will be no authority at all if everyone is thinking they are the supreme authority, it does not work and has not worked. ys pd
M: I have no problem allowing that Srila Prahbupada was deftly giving a NON CONCESSION by equating officiating acaryas with gurus,
>”NON CONCESSION” I don’t follow your meaning but he certainly never equated “officiating acaryas with gurus.” He equated officiating acaryas with ritvik, “ritvik, yes”.
The July 9th directive which was the outcome of the discussions clarifies this as a “representative of the acarya”.
Sorry to bore you again but there is no mention of them being gurus. That wasn’t their designated purpose, by appointment.
M: using a Jedi mind trick to keep a carrot dangled in front of the crazed lunatics who stood before him.
>Well, they may have been crazed lunatics but your suggestion that Prabhupada used a Jedi mind trick to keep a carrot dangled in front of them, is fanciful and not the case, in this instance.
Bhakta Hugh,
Like I mentioned, I have observed that there are different interpretations of that conversation depending on the devotees who comment on it. Of course some seem to agree on one particular version. If you hadn’t noticed, hundreds or even thousands of devotees have agreed that on the surface, the transcript appears to be equating Ritvik priests with Diksa gurus who, whether qualified or not, are giving Diksa because they were ordered to as a result of their appointment, and thus the disciples are simultaneously their’s and Srila Prabhupada’s.
I remember reading that conversation many times. I remember feeling inadequate to defend what I believed, that they were not being ordered to be Diksa gurus. I found that technically I could not argue against my opponent’s conclusion in a convincing way, except to separate the order to become a ritvik from the order to be guru. Even though it didn’t exactly say that. I remember thinking to myself that it would be nice to have been there to HEAR it, and perhaps see the faces of those involved. So I had half of that prayer answered, and probably the more important half, when I heard the audio.
Based on that, I found what I was looking for. I put what I heard together with what I have been able to understand about how Srila Prabhupada had to deal with his overly ambitious disciples, through reading thousands of conversations and letters, and I came to my own conclusion.
I think you are missing my point though. There was a subtle but honest trickery involved. Srila Prabhupada’s tone, tenor, and cadence are notably different when you compare 2 sections of that conversation, and he gives direct answers to the actual questions in each section, yet he leaves his answer somewhat vague to keep his disciples on the hook.
———————
Satsvarūpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
Prabhupāda: He’s guru. He’s guru.
Satsvarūpa: But he does it on your behalf.
——————–
Satswarupa is obviously equating “that person who gives the initiation” with the ritvik. Remember, Srila Prabhupada would “no longer be with them”. That was the context. He asked what is “that person’s” relationship with the new initiate.
Srila Prabhupada replied, “He’s guru”. SP COULD have been referring to himself as “that person giving the initiation” even though it seemed likely Satswarupa was referring to “that person” who would perform the act in the future.
But Sastwarupa continues to refer specifically to the ritvik with his next statement. Making it obvious who he meant.
Srila Prabhupada does NOT correct that. By that point, Srila Prabhupada would have noticed that Satswarupa had TWICE mistook the ritvik for “the person who gives the initiation”.
Instead, Srila Prabhupada says YES. And his tone, matches with the cadence of the conversation. He is addressing the subject that Satswarupa is focusing on. SP is NOT pretending to be unaware of what Satswarupa means. Why would he do such a thing anyway? He was Satswarupa’s teacher. Why ignore your students actual question and just have some parallel conversation with no one in particular?
Anyway, he does not say what type of guru, and he uses the famous amara verse which indicates Lord Caitanya’s broad order to be instructing gurus. So he answers Satswarupa’s question in a way that could be interpreted by Satswarupa as Siksa or Diksa, yet the July 9th document eliminated ONE of those possibilities. At least for the honest person.
Then further in the conversation, Srila Prabhupada gives the coup de gras.
———————-
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re his disciple.
Prabhupāda: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
———————
Here, Tamala admits that ritviks are “officiating”, so when he says they are “giving diksa” and asks about whose disciple is the person they (ritviks) are “giving diksa to”, Tamala has already established that he is equating the ritviks as officials only.
So Srila Prabhupada is able to address Tamala’s trickery by simply equating the ritvik with a Siksa guru and equating HIMSELF with the one who IS INITIATING.
You can hear it in his voice, when he responds “They are his disciple”, as he lets that answer hang as if there is more to say. He lets it hang long enough to lead Tamala to softly repeat it. Then he follows up defining who the word “his” is referring to.
Prabhupada: “Who is initiating.”
It sounds to me like he is referring to Himself when he says “who is initiating”.
Of course we know he is referring to the newly initiated when he next says “He is granddisciple”.
Even if I am wrong and SP was referring to the officiating ritvik when saying “who is initiating”, this again is not a license to be Diksa guru, as it has already been established earlier in the conversation that the ritviks will “initiate” on SP’s behalf. And finally, the July 9th letter claims all disciples are SP’s initiated disciples.
Either way, at most, Srila Prabhupada was saying that the new person would become a Siksa disciple of the Ritvik. Which they already were in the sense that the new person’s local Siksa Guru could not accept them as new initiated Bhaktas on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf without first approaching a Ritvik! And a ritvik may also be a temple president giving Siksa to an entire congregation! It is entirely possible.
Thus I say it was a NON concession. SP knew what they wanted to hear as a response to their questions. And he answered their questions in an honest way, that COULD be misinterpreted by them to mean something more than it was.
He gave them a second chance to back down from their misinterpretation when he penned the July 9th letter. It was specifically barring them from considering themselves Diksa guru.
They did anyway because it is what they wanted.
ys
B. Mark
Mark Prabhu, I quoted in my post JUNE tape conversation besides the May 28 conversation. I wonder even if you have at all bothered about reading it otherwise you must have spoken some thing about it. As it seems that you did not pay attention to read it, therefore, it is imperative to re-produce same here below for your kind perusal and further comments ;
JUNE TAPE
Tam: Srila Prabhupada, we are receiving a number of letters now. People are wanting to get initiated. So, up until now, since you were becoming ill, we asked them to wait.
SP: The local senior sannyasis can.
Tam: That’s what we were doing formerly. The local GBC sannyasis were chanting on their beads and they were writing to Your Divine Grace. And you were giving a spiritual name. So should that process be resumed or should we…(There is an interlude where Tamala discusses the spiritual master taking the disciple’s karma). That’s why we’ve been asking everybody to wait. I just want to know if we should continue to wait some more time.
SP: No. Senior sannyasis.
Tam: So they should continue to…
SP: You can bring me a list of sannyasis, I will mark. You can do, Kirtanananda can do…(word?) Satsvarupa can do. So (pause) these three can do.
Tam: So supposing someone is in America. Should they simply write directly to Kirtanananda or Satsvarupa.
SP: Nearby. Jayatirtha can do.
Tam: Jayatirtha.
SP: (word?)…Bhagavan can do.
Tam: Bhagavan.
SP: And he can do also (pause). Harikesh.
Tam: Harikesh Maharaja.
SP: Five, six men divide. Who is nearest.
Tam: Who is nearest. So persons wouldn’t have to write to Your Divine Grace. They could write directly to that person.
SP: (hmmm)
Tam: Actually, they are initiating the person on Your Divine Grace’s behalf.
SP: Hmmm.
Tam: Those persons who are initiated are still your-.
SP: Second initiation. We shall think. Second.
Tam: This is for first initiation. Okay. And for second initiation, for the time being we should-.
SP: Again have to wait. Second initiation, that should be…
Tam: Some devotees are writing you now for second initiation. And I’m writing them to wait a while, because you are not well. So can I continue to tell them that?
SP: They can do second initiation.
Tam: By writing you?
SP: No. These men.
Tam: These men. They can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who would give initiation is doing so on your behalf.
SP: Yes.
Tam: You know that book I’m maintaining of all your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?
SP: Hmmm.
Tam: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesh Maharaja, he should send the person’s name to us here, and I’ll enter it in the book. (Long pause) Is there someone else in India that you want to do this.
SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.
Tam: Jayapataka Maharaja.
SP: You are also in India. (Long pause) You can note down these names.
Tam: Yes, I have them. (The list is read, and Srila Prabhupada adds two more names-Hrdayananda and Ramesvara.
SP: (Long pause) So without waiting for me, whoever you consider deserves. That will depend on discretion.
Tam: On discretion.
SP: Yes.
Tam: That’s for first and second initiations?
SP: Hmmm.
NOTE: One very obvious question: If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape? Why was Tamala still trying to get Prabhupada to say something else? The answer is obvious. They hadn’t yet conceived their plot and dubbed the May tape. There is no mention in this tape of the ritviks becoming anything special after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. As such there is no question of construing an appointment of gurus from these two transcripts. But since the May tape was tampered with, not only is it not valid evidence, but it is conclusive evidence as to the demoniac nature of the “gurus”-just the opposite of the divine nature they claimed the tape represented.
Another significant point is that Bhavananda and Hansadutta were not named in this June tape. Their names appeared on the letter issued to all centers that Prabhupada signed, but they were not named in this tape. No doubt some “good reasons” were given to Prabhupada later on to include them even though Bhavananda had only a year previously been caught by Pippilai dasa pants down, having sex with a Bengali boy in Mayapur. Just months previously, Prabhupada had said that Hansadutta was “praying daily that I die so that he can become guru.” Prabhupada was aware of the character of all these ritviks. Ritvik has no special authority whatsoever. He simply gives initiation on the guru’s behalf. Otherwise why would Prabhupada say, “whoever is nearest.” The common argument, introduced by Sridhar Maharaja is that, “Well, it only makes sense that if Prabhupada made them ritviks, they must be the most advanced devotees.” Sridhar may have even been the first to introduce that idea even though two years previously Sridhar had said that ritvik implied no special position.
Aside from all that, Tamala Krsna has directly confessed (on tape) in the Pyramid House Talks, Dec. 3, 1980 that, “Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn’t appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.”
The “gurus” placed a great deal of importance on this tape to substantiate their claims, but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru. But Prabhupada, seeing past, present, and future, knew that this tape would be used to exploit the devotees. And so within this tape he planted one very important line that gives us the all-important clue as to what is the authoritative explanation on the subject of guru after his departure. He gave that clue by quoting “amara ajnaya guru hana.” Nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that a bona fide guru, a guru who actually sees Krsna face to face, can be appointed. The statement, “He’s actually guru, but by my order,” simply means that everyone is ordered to become guru by repeating what Prabhupada has taught us. It is not necessary to wait to see Krsna face to face to become guru and preach. Everyone should preach immediately by repeating what Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya have spoken. That is the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru hana” as explained below by Prabhupada. Everyone must preach from whatever level of realization he is on. But that kind of guru, and the actual liberated guru, are two different things. One is called diksa, and the other is called siksa. Anyone who repeats the message purely can become siksa-guru immediately. One’s wife, one’s mother, a prostitute, a beggar, a Godbrother, etc. Everyone is ordered to become guru in that sense. It is not possible to be ordered to become a pure devotee. The bona fide diksa-guru must be a pure devotee that is actually liberated. That is the conclusion of all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on these two types of gurus. This May tape does not in any way contradict those instructions.
Srila Prabhupada’s quoting the verse from Caitanya-caritamrta, “amara ajnaya guru hana” (Cc. Mad. 7.128) is so significant we are herein quoting the entire section from the Caitanya-caritamrta. We strongly suggest that the devotees read it carefully. It fully substantiates the conclusions in given in Chapter Nine.
“The brahmana (Kurma) begged Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life. (Cc. Mad. 7.126)
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Don’t speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of Krsna always.” (Cc. Mad. 7.127)
Purport by Prabhupada: “It is not advisable in this age of Kali to leave one’s family suddenly, for people are not trained as proper brahmacaris and grhasthas. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised the brahmana not to be too eager to give up family life. It would be better to remain with his family and try to become purified by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly under the direction of a spiritual master. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If this principle is followed by everyone, there is no need to accept sannyasa. In the next verse Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises everyone to become an ideal householder by offenselessly chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and teaching the same principle to everyone he meets.”
“Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in the land.” (Cc. Mad. 7.128)
Purport by Prabhupada: “This is the sublime mission of ISKCON. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra…. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped…. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.”
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further advised the brahmana Kurma, “If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company.” (Cc. Mad. 7.129)
Purport by Prabhupada: “This is an opportunity for everyone. If one simply follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His representative, and chants the Hare Krsna mantra, teaching everyone as far as possible the same principle, the contamination of the materialistic way of life will not even touch him. It does not matter whether one lives in a holy place like Vrndavana, Navadwipa or Jagannatha Puri or in the midst of European cities where the materialistic way of life is very prominent. If a devotee follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lives in the company of the Lord. Wherever he lives, he converts that place into Vrndavana and Navadvipa. This means that materialism cannot touch him. This is the secret of success for one advancing in Krsna consciousness.
“At whosoever’s house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma. (Cc. Mad. 7.130)
Purport by Prabhupada: “The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles and be freed from the contamination of material life…. To protect his preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Caitanya-caritamrta.
Mark Prabhu and other readers, please after paying CAREFULLY attention to the above, then only give your comments for further meaningful discussion point by point.
Thank you every one for your kind attention.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hari BOL.
YS……..Amar Puri.
Dear Amar,
I already addressed my opinion of the June conversation
mark says:
12. February 2013 at 12:05 am
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34065#comment-15222
I consider the June conversation in which Srila Prabhupada begins to name Ritviks that he would later put in the July letter, another example of why Srila Prabhupada said what he said on May 28th. As you can see, Tamala continues to “remind” Srila Prabhupada that the new initiates are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Hoping beyond hope that Srila Prabhupada will change his mind and correct him at some point, or perhaps trip up. LOL.
I also pointed out that a very professional and much more modern analysis showed that the “strong signs of falsification” noted by Norman Perle 15 years ago were from other portions of that 22 minute May 28th tape, and not from the 2 minute portion that we are discussing. Not only that, but the more modern analysis showed that they were simply stop starts, and normal variance in background due to the equipment used 35 years ago. Perhaps you missed that as well, because the links to those analyses were within the same comment where I gave my opinion about the June tape.
In addition, my latest comment was likely posted while you were writing your latest comment which I am now replying to. Here it is.
mark says:
12. February 2013 at 8:16 pm
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34065#comment-15265
Hare Krsna
Mark in your previous post which equated officiating acarya with guru.
My reply defeated those assertions by quoting Srila Prabhupada’s own words ..
Ritvik is a priest. Who may or may not give siksa. The point being that was not their designated purpose.
Their purpose was clearly outlined on July 9th 1977 which is the conclusion of these discussions.
If they were to be gurus why did Srila Prabhupada not say so?
Why call them officiating acarya’s/ritviks if they were gurus?
Please, no more Jedi nonsense.
M: “I remember thinking to myself that it would be nice to have been there to HEAR it, and perhaps see the faces of those involved.”
>TKG was there and able to do all that. He had more of Prabhupada’s personal association than most, thus knew him very well. This is what he confessed, in regards to this conversation..
People like Mark wish to perpetuate this mistake.
Thanks Bhakta Hugh, I will stick with my analysis which was consistent with the essence or spirit behind the each term used, including the context of the 10 years of teachings given by Srila Prabhupada on the subject prior to that conversation.
Tamala Krsna was obviously speaking of the kind of Gurus that he and his cronies had declared themselves. Diksa gurus.
In case you didn’t notice I agreed with him.
And as far as you repeating that “ritvik yes” was somehow a correction, you are entitled to your opinion.
This is not a true debate as there is no unbiased third party here who you and I have authorized to moderate us and who we have agreed to abide by their ruling, who might declare who’s presentation is logically correct, . In other words, I recognize that you disagree with me. But my answer will always be the same to that particular challenge. As a matter of fact my whole presentation is largely identifying the difference between the color of the law and the spirit of the law, and your position is definitely focusing on the color only, in my opinion.
Thanks for the challenging discussion, none the less!
Hare Krsna!
Bhakta Hugh I agree with you but the question is that does Bhakta Mark see and agree to what we are discussing in order to bring the point across thus far ?
I do not see it any where from Bhakta Mark any sign or gesture of agreeing to it in his post at all. Perhaps, he disagree to what you, Mahesh Raja Prabhu and others have brought forward to clarify the confusion created by those who WANNA BE GURU lovers no matter what. That is the whole point of discussion.
THOSE WHO ARE DESIROUS OF BECOMING A GURU AND HANKERING FOR CERTAIN PRATHISTHA SHALL FIND THEIR WAY BY HOOK OR CROOK WITHIN THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA TO JUSTIFY THEIR MOTIVE. NO BODY CAN STOP THEM.
Any way, thank you all for the participation .
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS…….. Amar Puri.
Problem with Bhakta Mark’s approach is that he remains on the platform of dry philosophizing. As soon Bhakta Mark would put his realization into action and get connected to the pure nectar of ecstatic transcendental loving devotional service, breaking free from mental / intellectual bondage, in other words, to raise from the dead, he would see differently.
Bhakta Mark is right now engaged licking the outside of the honey jar. One who thinks philosophical research is the all in all is content in this way. But we should learn the secret to open the jar and taste the honey in the association of devotees.
Simple theoretical book knowledge is not sufficient. Book knowledge is theoretical, whereas harinam sankirtan process is practical. Spiritual knowledge must be developed by a combination of theoretical and practical knowledge, and that is the guaranteed way for attainment of spiritual perfection. The training of devotional service for a neophyte devotee completely depends on the expert spiritual master who knows how to lead his disciple to make gradual progress. ys ad
Amar wrote
That is the whole point of discussion.
Sorry Amar, I began this discussion by asking Mahesh how he explains the plain surface meaning of what Srila Prabhupada says on May 28th. I have noticed that ritvik proponents have twisted the obvious meanings inherent in that conversation for many years, and lost the respect of many people who were willing to listen to what they said, and found them to be disingenuous.
I felt fearless that I could examine and honestly translate that discussion while still supporting the fact that Ritvik Diksa initiations were ordered for Iskcon for the future and that Srila Prabhupada would be everyone’s Initiating Spiritual Master or Diksa Guru.
Something you just said speaks directly to why I can do this.
“THOSE WHO ARE DESIROUS OF BECOMING A GURU AND HANKERING FOR CERTAIN PRATHISTHA SHALL FIND THEIR WAY BY HOOK OR CROOK WITHIN THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA TO JUSTIFY THEIR MOTIVE. NO BODY CAN STOP THEM.”
This has been my point all along. They will do it anyway. A devotee can tell their students that Srila Prabhupada is their only Diksa Guru and Initiating spiritual master, that SP is their only Siksa Guru and Instructing Spiritual master, and that they themselves are a “humble” teacher only.
And go on and use craft and guile to inject subtle changes during their teaching, while mostly sticking to authorized Vani, and in this way go YEARS undiscovered by their students, until the students are able to read enough on their own to see they have been fooled.
You cannot change that no matter what. Srila Prabhupada himself said that you may consider a godbrother or senior man to be Siksa Guru. And you would deny that as if it would have any bearing on someone’s propensity to cheat. Which is foolish and according to your statement above, YOU DON”T EVEN BELIEVE IT!
I am not advocating that we as a group of devotees OFFICIALLY as a rule refer to ritviks as Siksa gurus, or teach people to do that. This discussion was never about that. It was about being able to honestly translate that conversation without fear, and without it contradicting Srila Prabhupada’s ritvik order of Vani as a whole. And so far NO ONE has given any logical refutation that the spirit of my presentation is wrong. And for that matter, the technicalities used have been flawed as well in my opinion, but that is all it is, my opinion! Why charge me with some sort of exaggerated offense here and put words in my mouth? I have no position, no power to force anyone to say anything they don’t want!
Hare Krsna
M: Thanks Bhakta Hugh, I will stick with my analysis which was consistent with the essence or spirit behind the each term used, including the context of the 10 years of teachings given by Srila Prabhupada on the subject prior to that conversation.
>The problem is that you fail to provide proof of your sometimes outlandish claims.
M: Tamala Krsna was obviously speaking of the kind of Gurus that he and his cronies had declared themselves. Diksa gurus.
>Certainly but his initial statement,
“Any” means
M: In case you didn’t notice I agreed with him.
And as far as you repeating that “ritvik yes” was somehow a correction, you are entitled to your opinion.
>The fact is that although TKG failed to understand the correction for the duration of the conversation. He did correct himself afterwards as there is no record of him ever using the misnomer ritvik acarya again. Just like a father will correct a child. The child due to inexperience may not realize the correction but when the realization is there the child corrects himself.
On July 9th 1977 when a letter naming the eleven ritviks is sent out by TKG on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf, to all Temple Presidents and members of the Governing Body Commission, the word used is ritvik, not ritvik acarya.
On July 10th 1977 TKG, when informing Hansadutta of his appointment, refers to him only as a ritvik, not ritvik acarya and so on.
Prove that such a concept as ritvik acarya exists.
As for your point that the ritvik was a siksa guru. I’ve repeatedly quoted the July 9th directive which clearly states the purpose of the appointment.
Satyaraja makes the following observation:
Prabhupada never authorized any change to the system.
Simple as that!
Bhakta Hugh,
I agree with what Tamala MEANT. He was speaking of Diksa gurus, and specifically a guru who claims to be an Acarya who can change his own Spiritual master’s instructions.
His use of “any” is irrelevant (and wrong) because as I have shown, Srila Prabhupada ordered and authorized all of his disciples to become Siksa gurus.
if a disciple is not qualified as a Siksa Guru, we should never appoint him as a Ritvik in the first place. Srila Prahbupada did what he could with who he had in front of him, but the order was for all time in Iskcon, and we need to do our best.
Srila Prabhupada authorized all his disiples to be Siksa guru. I have shown you many quotes, here are some more direct.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: How many qualifications does a spiritual master have in terms of being a spiritual master?
Prabhupāda: One qualification: he is a devotee of God. That’s all.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Also is he designated?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does he have to be designated by the former spiritual master? He has to be devotee…
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, oh yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: …surrendered and designated. That is…, identifies disciplic succession: both surrender and designation.
Prabhupāda: And by the result.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And the result of activity.
Prabhupāda: So far designation is concerned, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AUTHORIZES EVERY ONE OF HIS DISCIPLE. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard.
Prabhupāda: If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master’s fault, that is your fault. HE WANTS, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128], By My order, every one of you become a guru. If one cannot carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then how he can become a guru? The first qualification is that he must be able to carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then he becomes guru. So that carrying out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu depends on one’s personal capacity. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā. Acceptance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as Kṛṣṇa, that is there in the śāstra, in the Upaniṣads, in Mahābhārata, in Bhāgavata.
(Room Conversation — June 29, 1972, San Diego)
“You become guru. You haven’t got to manufacture anything, any philosophy. You simply instruct whatever is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. That’s all. You become a guru.” So our request is that you are so many Indians living in this foreign country for generations.
SO TAKE THIS INSTRUCTION of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because you are coming from India, therefore it is special request to you that “By the order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, every one of you become a guru.” And what shall you have to do? Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Ei deśa. This South Africa, you are staying here. So you preach as a guru. (City Hall Lecture — Durban, October 7, 1975)
So this attempt has been done by us individually, with teeny effort, but it is becoming successful. But if we take up seriously this movement, EVERY ONE OF US become completely aware of this movement and take this mission as Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] “Every one of you, you become a guru,” by the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So “I shall become guru? What shall I do? I do not know anything.” No! You haven’t got to know anything. You simply, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa. YOU simply repeat the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Whomever YOU meet, YOU try to convince him; then YOU are guru. So OUR mission is THIS, Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s. WE ARE TRYING TO EXECUTE THE ORDER of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
(Bombay, December 17, 1975)
Every one of you should become Kṛṣṇa consciousness and go to the outside countries and preach this. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness does… You haven’t got to manufacture something by your fertile brain, speculating. That is useless, nonsense. Simply you take what Kṛṣṇa has said and preach it. YOU BECOME A GURU AND YOU DELIVER THE WHOLE WORLD.
(Lecture — Nellore, January 4, 1976)
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You Bhakta Hugh, continue to misconstrue my simple argument, which was that Srila Prabhupada was tricking these rascals by stating the obvious, and letting them interpret it any way they wanted. By calling them Gurus, there is no license to instruct contrary to his Vani, and no license to initiate on one’s own behalf, especially in light of the July 9th order.
The only type of Siksa guru he ever authorized was one who followed his instructions strictly.
Until you can imagine you are faced with 11 of the most devious and ruthless fanatics in the universe, needing to keep them satisfied and leading your movement, while technically speaking the truth, you will continue to mince words and miss the point of what he did.
Bhakta Mark writes ; ” The only type of Siksa guru he ever authorized was one who followed his instructions strictly. ”
Bhakta Mark name one who is s/he such person, your Siksa guru, following Instructions of Srila Prabhupada STRICTLY,…….
Just for the sake of an exercise, let us imagine that Srila Prabhupada was correcting Tamala Krsna when he equated officiating acaryas with ritvik acaryas.
I know it is hard to believe that saying, RITVIK, YES, was a correction, after all a ritvik is someone who officiates at rituals, and Srila Prabhupada had already used the word Acarya.
But, like I said, let us suspend our disbelief, and call it a correction.
15 seconds later, Tamala says
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: “No, he’s asking that these ṛtvik-ācāryas, they’re officiating, giving dīkṣā. Their… The people who they give dīkṣā to, whose disciple are they?”
So, one would think as Tamala’s teacher, that Srila Prabhupada would feel obligated to correct his use of the term ritvik acarya once again. But he doesn’t.
Srila Prabhupada also does not disagree that the “ritvik acaryas” are officiating. Nor does he disagree that they are “giving diksa”.
Srila Prabhupada gives no correction WHATSOEVER, but simply gives a direct answer to the question.
Prabhupāda: They’re his disciple.
The current Iskcon crowd translates that as Srila Prabhupada admitting that the ritviks are Diksa Gurus.
But the type of Guruship was qualified when Srila Prabhupada said that he was ordering them to be Guru on his behalf. So the “initiating” and “giving Diksa” these “Ritviks’ were doing was not on their own power, and thus they were not accepting disciples on their own behalf.
And their guruship was further qualified in the July 9th order, when the new disciples were called initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
And their guruship was further qualified, when he said one who understands his guru’s order, the same paramparā, he can become guru. Meaning if someone does not understand Srila Prabhupada’s order, he is no longer qualified to act as Siksa guru or ritvik or any position of authority. And should be removed.
After all, later in that conversation, Srila Prabhupada said that a GBC needs to be Acarya like, and should be removed if he is deviant. This means that any position where the disciple needs to be ACARYA LIKE, is subject to the same deal.
“Prabhupāda: “They must be all ideal ācārya-like. In the beginning we have done for working. Now we should be very cautious. Anyone who is deviating, he can be replaced.”
It should also be remembered that in just about every instance where Srila Prabhupada gives a general order to his disciples to become Guru (instructing/siksa) he says it is not a title and they must come to that platform by qualification. So a ritvik is meant to be someone qualified to be Siksa guru. “Acarya like” If they are not, they should never get there, and if they do get there and prove unworthy, they are to be removed.
See, it all fits.
Bhakta Mark read carefully please the warning Srila Prabhupada is giving as you quoted in your comments;
Prabhupāda: If you are incapable of raising yourself to the standard of becoming spiritual master, that is not your spiritual master’s fault, that is your fault. HE WANTS, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128], By My order, every one of you become a guru. If one cannot carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then how he can become a guru? The first qualification is that he must be able to carry out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then he becomes guru. So that carrying out the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu depends on one’s personal capacity. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā. Acceptance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu as Kṛṣṇa, that is there in the śāstra, in the Upaniṣads, in Mahābhārata, in Bhāgavata.
I hope you begin to see the clarity in the above explanation from Srila Prabhupada as to how one must see who is guru and who is not a guru with regard to the sloka CC Madhya 7.128 ” Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, āmāra ājñāya guru hañā [Cc. Madhya 7.128], By My order, every one of you become a guru.”
That distinction (the standard of becoming spiritual master ) is there which sets apart. Even though Srila Prabhupada says that He wants every one to become Spiritual Master that which is indeed an open order. Yes, it is an open order without the specific (the standard of becoming spiritual master). That specification is not there in the open order as you are presenting in your presentation and refuting the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada unnecessarily which please note Bhakta Mark.
Most of the time, people are misled as a result of this sloka when it is quoted by the motivated living guru lovers. Become guru. Siksha guru, Biksha guru and all sorts of other gurus.
I do not know what kind of guru you are promoting in your message, thus far. Therefore, your intend and purpose of such lengthy presentation remains unclear.
Hope it meets you well.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
YS……… Amar Puri.
Again, a general order to “become guru” is not a specific order for 1, or 11, or anyone else specifically to take that post. “Become a brain surgeon,” also does not mean, anyone has become — already. ys pd
Dear Amar,
you said: I do not know what kind of guru you are promoting in your message, thus far. Therefore, your intend and purpose of such lengthy presentation remains unclear.
With all due respect, your lack of clarity as to the intent and purpose of my presentation must be due to one of two things. English is obviously not your first language, but you seem to get it more or less. So if it is not that, then you haven’t read everything I have written. It has been lengthy because I have taken great pains to be detailed and repetitive as to my intent and purpose for this presentation. So there is nothing more I can say except to repeat again, and that is not going to happen. If you are really interested, it is all there.
I am not at all concerned with how people might misuse slokas or quotes from Srila Prabhupada. That will not prevent me from telling things as they are, because people will find a way to cheat no matter what.
There are very high standards to be a ritvik. It is an honored position meant for the most mature devotees. In the same way GBC’s are meant to be chosen from Temple Presidents. And to be a GBC, a devotee would need to be a mature and experienced Temple president. A mature and experienced TP will have long since been qualified as a Siksa guru, and in fact will have taught many devotees for many many years. You can call those devotees students if you like, but there is one word in Sanskrit for both student and disciple and that is Sisya. A ritvik will be no less qualified. And that was the point.
Srila Prabhupada’s set the standard for who could be appointed as Ritvik in the future, not by the men he chose, but by the description of the office and the qualifications. His leading men were very ambitious so he told them the truth. If they stayed loyal and instructed what he instructed, they would have disciples. Siksa disciples. Just like everyone else who teaches a student. I can’t say it any more clearly. There are different types of Gurus, and different types of disciples. If someone wants to try and misuse that fac that is their problem, it is still the truth. There was no order to become Diksa Guru, so we know the truth no matter what they claim. So what is the problem?
Hare Krsna
Again, a general order to “become guru” is not a specific order for 1, or 11, or anyone else specifically to take that post. “Become a brain surgeon,” also does not mean, anyone has become — already. ys pd
Come on Puranjana das, we are way past that ABC pablum here.
He was defining the reality of who is qualified to be chosen for Ritvik. Whether anyone comes to be qualified like that is another thing.
You better hope that you and every one of your friends in Sunnyvale and Bangalore are qualified Siksa gurus, otherwise you should be all keeping your mouths shut.
There is one Sanskrit word for the words pupil, student, and disciple. It is Sisya. There is no distinction
Disciple
1: one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another
– A disciple is a follower and student of a mentor, teacher, or other figure.
– One who embraces and assists in spreading the teachings of another.
Discipline:
– punishment
– instruction
student:
– scholar
– pupil
Pupil
1: a child or young person in school or in the charge of a tutor or instructor : student
2: one who has been taught or influenced by a famous or distinguished person
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So when we see disciple, we need to make a distinction because in Iskcon there is only one type of disciple a person can have, and it is not someone they initiate on their own behalf.
In the strictest sense, someone qualified to be Diksa Guru and initiate on their own behalf is not bound in the Siksa and may make adjustments for time and place in how they instruct their disciples.
Whereas any Iskcon devotee at any level on the devotional scale, who is given the task of instructing other devotees is acting as a Siksa Guru, and you can call those being instructed anything you want, but disciple is technically correct as one of those words. So in Iskcon everyone is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada both Diksa AND Siksa. So it is no problem to have many siksa gurus as long as they are all teaching what Prabhupada taught, and if they don’t they get kicked out.
A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.
(Adi 1.35 purport)
My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
(Krsna book Volume 2 : KB 2-25)
Prabhupada: Then so siksa and diksa-guru… A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means… Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal.
(Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 — Honolulu, July 4, 1974)
“A person who has attained firm faith is a real candidate for advancing in Krishna consciousness. According to the faith, there are first-class, second-class and neophyte devotees. One who has preliminary faith is called kanintha, or a neophyte. *The neophyte, however, can become an advanced
devotee if he strictly follows the regulative principles set down by the spiritual master*. *The pure devotee whose faith advances becomes a madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari.*”(Cc. Madhya 22.64,69-70) (*Madhya 15.106 : PURPORT)*
“To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense?”
(Letter to: Sri Galim — Delhi 20 November, 1971)
“Srila Krishnadas Kaviraja Gosvami states that the instructing spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krishna. Sri Krishna Himself teaches us as the instructing spiritual master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion, and from without He teaches from the Bhagavad-gita as the instructing spiritual master. There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple’s spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions…
…The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha.”
(Adi 1.47 purport)
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NOTE: Diksa Guru is equated with a MANIFESTATION of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha. One may only have one Diksa Guru. And a Diksa guru passes on 2nd initiation mantras that are not independent like the Maha Mantra. In other words, those Diksa mantras will only act on a disciple according to the potency of the Guru who transmits those mantras.
Siksa Guru, can be a person NOT YET LIBERATED, one may take instructions from many such devotees, and they are equated with REPRESENTATIVES of Srila Govindadeva Vigraha. Not MANIFESTATIONS.
—————————-
My dear Karandhara,
Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated January 21st, 1976.
The photos of my murti are very nice. The murti of the Spiritual Master should be treated as good as the Deity. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair, uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih/kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya **, The guru should be treated as good as God. This is stated in all the sastras. The difference is that God is master-God and guru is servant-God. So the installation ceremony for such a murti should be similar to that done for other Deities. All Temples can have this Deity if they like. But Temples which have only Panca-tattva painting worship should not be given this Deity.
You should make a murti of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and then they may be worshiped together as is now being done in our Krishna Balarama Temple. They should be placed with Gaura Nitai—Guru Gauranga.
(Letter to: Karandhara — Mayapur 29 January, 1976)
Please accept my blessings. I have received your letter dated Jan. 3rd and have noted the contents. It is nice that you are enthusiastically engaged in New York. I have no objection to your worshiping my murti for Guru Puja. But for placing in the temple there must be a pair of murtis, (my Guru Maharaja must be there) as in Krsna-Balarama Mandir, and they must be permanently installed. This may be done in accord with the temple authorities. Or else you may worship one murti of myself privately in your room.
(Letter to: Sudama — Allahabad 13 January, 1977)
————————
NOTE: Srila Prabhupada equates the murti of the Spiritual master with a Deity. He also equates the Spiritual master with Saksad Hari, and as worthy of Guru puja. He also insists that his Diksa Guru’s murti accompany his. All signs that the Murti is of the INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER.
Thus, in all temples, Srila Prabhupada is still present in Vapu form. Even more reason why the order to become Ritvik and have disciples can mean nothing more than acknowledging what is already a fact, All strictly following devotees who are qualified as Vaisnavas and have the ability to instruct, are to be Siksa gurus representating the Founder Acarya. And if they deviate from his teachings, they are rascal demons and get kicked out.
Prabhupada: Then so siksa and diksa-guru… A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means… Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal.
(Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 — Honolulu, July 4, 1974)
M: “And a Diksa guru passes on 2nd initiation mantras that are not independent like the Maha Mantra. In other words, those Diksa mantras will only act on a disciple according to the potency of the Guru who transmits those mantras.”
>This is stated below some quotes following a ‘NOTE:’ prompt. I’ve gone over the quotes but they do not state the above.
So where does this come from?
M: “Even more reason why the order to become Ritvik and have disciples can mean nothing more than acknowledging what is already a fact”
>The fact is it wasn’t a fact during Prabhupada’s manifested lila, as testified by Satyaraja.
Neither did Prabhupada authorize any change to the system.
Neither did Prabhupada authorize the ritviks to be siksa gurus. Their soul purpose was..
What is the continued difficulty?
Satyaraja das — ISKCON Journal March 1990 p38
Yes! If the temple president said you were to get initiated, then you got initiated, otherwise, not! No ifs ands or buts! It was as simple as that! Sometimes the initiations were arranged to correspond with a visit by Srila Prabhupada so that he could perform the initiation in person, otherwise it was done by mail, by the TP performing a fire sacrifice, and by his requesting a GBC man, for example, to chant on one’s beads.
Why should it be any different now?
THUS THE RESULTS OF THE PIOUS ACTS PREVIOUSLY PERFORMED BY THE PRIEST OR SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE DIMINISHED.
THEREFORE PRIESTHOOD IS NOT ACCEPTED BY LEARNED BRAHMANAS.
SB 6.7.35 P Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
The professions of a qualified brahmana are pathana, pathana, yajana, yajana, dana and pratigraha. The words yajana and yajana mean that a brahmana becomes the priest of the populace for the sake of their elevation. ONE WHO ACCEPTS THE POST OF SPIRITUAL MASTER NEUTRALIZES THE SINFUL REACTIONS OF THE YAJAMANA, THE ONE ON WHOSE BEHALF HE PERFORMS YAJNA. THUS THE RESULTS OF THE PIOUS ACTS PREVIOUSLY PERFORMED BY THE PRIEST OR SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE DIMINISHED. THEREFORE PRIESTHOOD IS NOT ACCEPTED BY LEARNED BRAHMANAS. Nevertheless, the greatly learned brahmana Visvarupa became the priest of the demigods because of his profound respect for them.
IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
740704BG.HON Lectures
Prabhupada: Then so siksa and diksa-guru… A SIKSA-GURU WHO INSTRUCTS AGAINST THE INSTRUCTION OF SPIRITUAL, HE IS NOT A SIKSA GURU. HE IS A DEMON. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means… Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. SIKSA-GURU DOES NOT MEAN HE IS SPEAKING SOMETHING AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF THE DIKSA-GURU. HE IS NOT A SIKSA-GURU. HE IS A RASCAL.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION.
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives ARE NEAREST THEIR TEMPLE. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
Sorry Bhakta Hugh, the quotes regarding potency of mantras other than the Maha mantra are at the following link in an essay published on Istagosthi.
https://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/browse_thread/thread/2277a32ff3a253fd?hl=en#
As for the Maha Mantra being independent, I am guessing you knew that already? Otherwise, a quick vedabase search should show you that.
And as far as the ritviks, I am certain I mentioned that usually they would have nothing to do with the new initiates, but it is quite possible that they could be a senior instructor at a temple where they have authorized the initiations of new Bhaktas. After all, the Ritviks have to live somewhere!
And that is besides the point anyway, because as I have stated time and again, the whole May 28th conversation was an artful dodge made by Srila Prabhupada as he placated the fierce ambitions of his leading men by giving a technically accurate answer to their questions which gave no actual license to do anything but what was already authorized for all disciples who became qualified to answer the questions of others according to the limits of their knowledge of the science of Krsna consciousness.
I have stressed that as the main reason for this exercise. I have stressed that my opinion is that for too long, ritvik proponents have MIS-TRANSLATED this conversation, twisting it to suit their well intended agenda which is to support ritvik initiations. My point is this is not necessary and we can boldly accept what was said on face value, and still support the ritvik initiation system. I have re read what I have written and find no logical inconsistencies.
The only valid criticism that I have heard is that what I am saying can be twisted by a poorly intended person to justify cheating.
Well, that has been done already way before I even became a devotee, not to mention coming up with my translation of this situation. Cheaters will twist anything, even the truth.
Not only that, but I believe that as a group, ritvik proponents have done themselves a disservice by twisting this conversation and skirting the truth, because such intellectual jugglery repels honest people, as well as makes us no better than those we rail against.
Dear Readers,
It looks like Bhakta Mark is suffering heavily with his own egoistic approach to understand and acknowledge the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. No matter what any body says, he had chosen his choice to stick with it. His whole presentation involves around him how he looks at it and he wishes every one must see what he sees and how he interprets to satisfy his personal ego in every writing in his post.
From his writing it appears that he supports all types of guru system ; a. Siksha guru, b. Diksha guru, c. Biksha guru and yet he emphasis that ” My point is this is not necessary and we can boldly accept what was said on face value, and still support the ritvik initiation system. I have re read what I have written and find no logical inconsistencies.” Read further what he writes ;
” The only valid criticism that I have heard is that what I am saying can be twisted by a poorly intended person to justify cheating.
Well, that has been done already way before I even became a devotee, not to mention coming up with my translation of this situation. Cheaters will twist anything, even the truth.”
How any body with the right mind can support the Ritvik Initiation System when he is the promoter of the BIKSHA guru concept accepting the Sisya for Prathista when Srila Prabhupada says ;
IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
The dilemma is that this Sadharan Jiva Bhakta Mark never replies and refutes what is genuinely quoted from Srila Prabhupada . But what he does is that he refers back to the May 28th DUBBED tape conversation and interprets to establish his agenda of the BIKSHA guru accepting disciples when Srila Prabhupada says that IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES.
Thus he suffers with his egoistic approach in presentation. As he writes in his comments ; ” Cheaters will twist anything, even the truth.” Therefore, he is one of the cheater himself who is distorting the TRUTH by his mundane interpretation in the lengthy presentation just like Rocana dasa Prabhu does in his DOR – presentation.
This is Kali Yuga.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari BOL.
M: “IMPORTANCE OF DIKSA (SECOND) INITIATION”
However in the quotes given Prabhupada says;
Here 1st initiation (beginning) is called diksa.
2nd initiation is..
Thus your heading “IMPORTANCE OF DIKSA (SECOND) INITIATION” is out of kilter.
Some Gaudiya Math groups claim that diksa is the second initiation.
In a broader sense both are part of the diksa process.
Mark: And as far as the ritviks, I am certain I mentioned that usually they would have nothing to do with the new initiates, but it is quite possible that they could be a senior instructor at a temple where they have authorized the initiations of new Bhaktas. After all, the Ritviks have to live somewhere!
Mahesh: The system of management was as Srila Prabhupada authorised: the Ritviks did NOT have their own disciples to make it into “grand disciples”. As per July 9th 1977 the instruction was SPECIFIC to their task:
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “ritvik–representative of the acarya, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION.
THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD,
Note: the Ritviks do NOT have their disciples. Ritvik July 9th 1977 is System of Management – no change required:
WILL Srila Prabhupada’s Will
2. The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.
IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES
Madhya 7.130 The Lord’ s Tour of South India
The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. IT IS BEST NOT TO ACCEPT ANY DISCIPLES. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
Note: because the initiated disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s the RISK of Ritvik (LEARNED BRAHMANA) who does the Initiations 1st and 2nd on BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada is NOT lumbered with taking on SINFUL REACTIONS of others by which his OWN progress is checked:
THUS THE RESULTS OF THE PIOUS ACTS PREVIOUSLY PERFORMED BY THE PRIEST OR SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE DIMINISHED.
THEREFORE PRIESTHOOD IS NOT ACCEPTED BY LEARNED BRAHMANAS.
SB 6.7.35 P Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
The professions of a qualified brahmana are pathana, pathana, yajana, yajana, dana and pratigraha. The words yajana and yajana mean that a brahmana becomes the priest of the populace for the sake of their elevation. ONE WHO ACCEPTS THE POST OF SPIRITUAL MASTER NEUTRALIZES THE SINFUL REACTIONS OF THE YAJAMANA, THE ONE ON WHOSE BEHALF HE PERFORMS YAJNA. THUS THE RESULTS OF THE PIOUS ACTS PREVIOUSLY PERFORMED BY THE PRIEST OR SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE DIMINISHED. THEREFORE PRIESTHOOD IS NOT ACCEPTED BY LEARNED BRAHMANAS. Nevertheless, the greatly learned brahmana Visvarupa became the priest of the demigods because of his profound respect for them.
There is NO REQUIREMENT for one to have HIS OWN disciples even if one is SIKSA GURU.
If one is out on the street distributing Srila Prabhupada’s books and explains to someone about Krsna that is giving SIKSA (instruction) to one who has never heard of Krsna. Does not mean they are HIS disciples.
M: “And a Diksa guru passes on 2nd initiation mantras that are not independent like the Maha Mantra. In other words, those Diksa mantras will only act on a disciple according to the potency of the Guru who transmits those mantras.”
Bhakta Hugh,
In my article I should have written “mantra diksa” (second) initiation.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mantra-diksa. Yes. The first ceremony is hari-nama-diksa, and then mantra-diksa. Hari-nama-diksa, all these boys present, they were, one year before, they were initiated for chanting, and now they are being second time initiated by mantra-diksa, yes. Any other questions?
Gayatri Mantra Initiation — Boston, May 9, 1968
The entire article was quotes about the potency of mantras other than the maha mantra, so that should have been clear anyway.
So, regarding the quote from the 1st initiation ceremony from Hyderabad in 1976 that you pointed out from my article on Istagosthi…
“Prabhupada: So this morning we are having initiation ceremony for some devotees. The initiation means beginning. The Sanskrit name is diksa. Diksa, divya-jnanam ksapayati iti diksa. Initiation, beginning of spiritual life.”
You are right that is does not fit specifically with the overall point I was making in the article about taking mantras from unauthorized persons. Thanks for the correction on that point.
If you read my comment and article again, I never said that a Diksa guru is not involved in Hari-Nama initiation. I was not saying that Hari-nama initiation isn’t part of the process of Diksa. The process of Diksa ACTUALLY begins informally (and spiritually) when a person hears and is attracted to the Maha Mantra when it comes from the lips of a pure devotee.
In Iskcon, the first formal “initiation” is 1st Initiation (Hari-nama). But the Maha Mantra has already been heard from Srila Prabhupada by reading his books, or hearing him on audio, and the aspirant has practiced chanting it for 6 months by that time. In some of the quotes below you will read about Srila Prabhupada’s opinion of “1st initiation.”
Hari Nama (first) initiation was introduced by Srila Prabhupada due to it being introduced by his spiritual master. It was a novel approach to spreading Gaudiya Vaishnavism. As a matter of fact, before Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, there was no Hari Nama initiation. There was no sacred thread ceremony for Gaudiyas. There was also no Gayatri Mantra given. So, from Srila Bhaktivinode’s time and back a long ways, “initiation” was when a devotee received Krishna gopal mantra.
Also note that Srila Prabhupada largely refers to 2nd initiation as Brahminical initiation.
The second initiation was considered to be the part of the process of Diksa which FULFILLED the injunction of receiving “proper initiation” from a bona fide spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada and his Guru were attempting to reinstate Brahminical culture and he was quite pointed about the 2nd initiation ceremonies importance in that regard. And Srila Prabhupada was adamant after 1974 NOT to give 2nd initiation lightly.
Tatha diksa-vidhanena. Similarly, any lowborn, it doesn’t matter what he is, if proper initiation is conducted, then tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam, he becomes a brahmana. He becomes a brahmana. Dvijatvam. Dvija means twice-born.
Initiation Lecture Excerpt — London, September 7, 1971
In this Hari-bhakti-vilasa Sri Sanatana Gosvami gives definite instructions that by proper initiation by a bona fide spiritual master one can immediately become a brahmana. In this connection he says:
Adi 7.47 Purport
But anyway, the present law is the law of all scripture-that if anyone is purified he can enter into the temple. Actually, that is the position. Only one who is properly initiated, who is properly following the rules and regulations, can enter and touch the Deity-not all. And one who touches the body of the Deity, following such regulative principles, is immediately delivered from the contamination of material sins, and all of his desires become fulfilled without delay.
NOD 9 (touching the Deity)
First of all they come in the temple and hear for some days. Then all of a sudden he becomes shaven-headed. We haven’t to request. He takes a bead and bead bag, although he’s not initiated. Then, after some days, he approaches, “Please get me initiated.” The bhajana-kriya. This is called bhajana-kriya. So we initiate. “Yes, now you are interested, we initiate.” We give him hari-nama: “Chant Hare Krishna mantra.” This is the first initiation. “And chant sixteen rounds and observe these rules and regulations.” Then, when I see, six months or one year, he’s doing very nicely, then we accept him as my disciple, the second initiation. So this is bhajana-kriya. Then he’s admitted to worship the Deity or cook for the Deity, so many things. Bhajana-kriya.
Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.18 — Calcutta, September 26, 1974
Our Sanatana Gosvami gives direction in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one man can become a brahmana by the regular process of diksa. Diksa, this initiation, cannot be offered to a sudra. Diksa cannot be offered to a sudra. But in this age, Kali-yuga, it is the statement of the sastras that in the Kali-yuga most of the population are sudras. Kalau sudra sambhavah. How they can be initiated? This initiation is offered not according to the Vedic rules, because it is very difficult to find out a qualified brahmana. Diksa is offered to a qualified brahmana. Therefore this diksa is offered according to Pascaratriki-vidhi. That is recommended in this age. My spiritual master inaugurated this Pascaratriki-vidhi, and we are following his footsteps. Anyone who is inclined to devote his life for Krishna, he should be accepted as brahmana.
Of course, he should be trained up. Not that these boys and girls are being initiated all of a sudden. They are trained up for six months, one year, then they are offered hari-nama. And when they are qualified actually in chanting Hare Krishna mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily, when we see, one year at least, that he is doing his duties, following the regulative principles… All these boys and girls who are initiated, they will have to follow the regulative principles.
Bhagavad-gita 7.3 — Bombay, March 29, 1971
Letter to: Jadurani — New Vrindaban 4 September, 1972 : 72-09-04 :
Regarding your questions, second initiation is real initiation. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared, just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified then he is recognized as a brahmana and that means real initiation. The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. Just like my spiritual master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, you are educated boys, why don’t you preach this cult. That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day. ..
Professor: How many levels of initiation do you have?
Prabhupada: Two.
Professor: Two. The first…
Prabhupada: First initiation, experimental…
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupada: Chanting Hare Krishna maha-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gayatri. Gayatri-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jiva Gosvami, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Krishna mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gayatri, is given. So we are creating brahmanas in the western countries. Yes.
Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor — August 13, 1973, Paris
Letter to: Sudama — Rome 26 May, 1974 : 74-05-26 :
Based on their declarations of sincerely following all the prescribed Vaisnava regulations for one year, and on your recommendation, I have accepted Jagat Prabhu das, Praghosa das, Kanva das and Nitai Gauracandra das for second initiation and I have enclosed sacred thread and gayatri. You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad. Now that we are more and more trying to implement the varnasrama divisions of society, we should not think that everyone has to become a brahmana. For example you are developing a farm there; so those who work the farm do not necessarily have to be a brahmana if they are not inclined to the brahminical standards. In this way, be careful about awarding the second initiation.
Letter to: Nityananda — Rome 27 May, 1974 : 74-05-27 :
I am also accepting Jogindra vandana for second initiation who has been initiated for two years. I want to stress to you to be very cautious about giving me recommendation for second initiation. There are four orders of life, it is not that everyone has to be a brahmana just because he has been initiated 1 or 2 or any number of years. Especially if one cannot even rise early for mangala arati he should never be given brahminical initiation.
I have also accepted Bhojadeva dasa and Hrsikesa dasa for second initiation trusting that you have carefully examined their devotional behavior for the past year and that they have not deviated from the regulative principles. It is not that automatically we have to award a devotee second initiation after he has been with us for a certain time, but the qualifications have to be there. Letter to: Rsabhadeva — Paris 9 June, 1974
I understand this is the second time you are submitting the names of Siddhavidya and Kirticandra for second initiation and that you have seriously considered their eligibility for brahminical status. Therefore I will accept them as brahmanas, and the sanctified threads are enclosed as well as gayatri mantra.
Letter to: Sahadeva — Paris 9 June, 1974
74-06-18
Los Angeles
My dear Jaya Tirtha,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of May 25, 1974 with the list of names for initiation.
I appreciate that you say you have very carefully considered the names and the candidates have had several interviews and written statements before you would consider them, both for first and second initiation. I am especially concerned that the second initiation not be taken cheaply and devotees who do not even rise early be recommended for brahmana.
The Nectar of Instruction has come out very nice. It is very important and must be immediately read by all devotees. In the near future we shall introduce the Bhakti-sastri examination for second initiation and this shall be one of the required books of study. Anyone who reads it will immediately understand what Krishna Consciousness is. Some minister in Bombay recently asked me how to create morality amongst the students, because the students are all vagabounds. If this book is introduced for study in the schools and colleges it will give a clear idea of what morality actually is. It is a most important book.
Letter to: Radhavallabha — Nellore 5 January, 1976
Yes, as a Sannyasi and GBC your first duty is to read my books. Otherwise how will you preach? In order to remain steadily fixed in Krishna consciousness there must be a sound philosophical understanding. Otherwise it will become only sentiment. Whenever you find time please read my books.
Shortly we shall be introducing the system of examinations for those students who are ready for second initiation as well as sannyasa. According to the degree, devotees will be expected to read and assimilate our different books. Letter to: Satsvarupa — Nellore 5 January, 1976
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Hare Krsna