video: Hare Krishna Street Parties | SATURDAY AFTERNOON HARINAM (Watford 13 – 7- 2013)
By Vidura Das
In the article by Vraja Vilasa Dasa from the Sampradaya Sun Two Wrongs Don’t Make a Right, the author writes: “Real surrender to Srila Prabhupada means we should follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on accepting a physically manifest guru…” I would like focus this article especially on this statement because this seems to be the central point from which the author makes his assertions. First and foremost, Srila Prabhupada has never instructed anywhere that we should approach a “physically manifest guru”. Sure there are places where Srila Prabhupada says we must approach a spiritual master, hear from him, render service under him, and inquire from him – submissively. These are the general aspects of the guru-disciple relationship. However, these aspects do not necessitate the guru from whom one takes initiation being present in his physically manifest [spiritual] body. All of the above aspects of approaching a spiritual master can be done through Srila Prabhupada’s transcendental books, as the following quotes by Srila Prabhupada prove:
HEARING FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA:
“The method by which the transcendental message is received is the method of submissive hearing.”
(Teachings of Lord Caitanya – 23, Why Study the Vedanta-sutra?)
“These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.“
(Letter to: Rupanuga: — Mayapur 19 October, 1974)
RENDERING SERVICE:
“As long as the Spiritual Master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual Master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the Spiritual Master.” (S.B. 4:28:47, purport)
“As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical presence. If you are chanting Hare Krishna there, and following my instructions, reading the books, taking only Krishna prasadam etc., then there is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose mission I am humbly trying to push on.” (Letter to Bala Krishna, 30/6/74
“Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master’s word is more important than to serve physically.” (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)
Devotee: …so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks “How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?”
Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words. (Lecture – 18/08/71)
“If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple.” (C.c. Adi 1.35, purport)
INQUIRY/RECIPROCATION:
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupāda: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, CA 13/5/73)
“Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.” (Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)
“So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.”
(Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)
Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?
Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever from my books and you will utilize.
(Interview, Berkley, 17/7/75)
Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there’s also a question of reciprocation. You have so many disciples, thousands, and one devotee was asking me yesterday, “How does… I want to please Śrīla Prabhupāda. How does he know my progress and my service because I’m…, when I’m so far away from him and if I don’t write him?”
Prabhupāda: So his representatives are there, the president, the GBC. They will see.
Mādhavānanda: The representatives.
Jayādvaita: The representative may be there, but what is my personal relationship?
Prabhupāda: Hm? To obey your spiritual master. Whatever he has said, you follow strictly. Follow the regulative principles. Chant sixteen rounds. That’s all.
(Morning Walk — April 8, 1975, Mayapur)
Clearly, there is no difficulty in approaching Srila Prabhupada today since all of the above aspects can be satisfied with Srila Prabhupada’s books. We can hear from Him through His books, we can serve Him through the orders that He gives to us in His books, and we can reciprocate with Him through His books. We simply have to be determined in this approach:
“My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation.”
(“The Search for the Divine”, Back To Godhead #49)
Srila Prabhupada’s books are His sound representation. It is Srila Prabhupada manifested through vibration – His vani. It is certainly possible to approach this manifestation of Srila Prabhupada. All of the aspects of the guru-disciple relationship can be present in this kind of approach, as shown above. It is this spiritual connection that we should be concerned with:
“So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.”
(Letter, 13/01/69, Los Angeles)
“We are not separated actually. There are two – Vani or Vapuh – so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same.” (Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)
“Krishna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. (Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)
“So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krishna or Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message (or hearing) is the real touch.” (Letter to students, 2/8/67)
“Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection.” (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)
What has been the general pattern in our sampradaya does not in itself become a law. Whatever rules we abide by are strictly instructed to us by Srila Prabhupada. We cannot just independently look over Srila Prabhupada and into our history, observing apparent patterns in on lineage, and then whimsically derive a spiritual law based on our own observation. Srila Prabhupada never stated anywhere that tradition is automatically law. It is the acharyas who set new precedents and thereby new traditions to begin with. Why is there all of a sudden a problem with Srila Prabhupada establishing a new precedent? In fact Srila Prabhupada says:
“Tradition is just temporary. You make your tradition; he makes your tradition. That is another thing. But the, fact is fact. That is not dependent on tradition.” (Room Conversation — February 13, 1975, Mexico)
(It is a fact that Srila Prabhupada ordered ritviks to act as His representatives in performing formal initiations from the time of His order onwards – new initiates being disciples of Srila Prabhupada.)
“That is called tradition. But that is not parampara. Parampara is different.” (Lectures – Philosophy Discussions with Syamasundara dasa and Carl Gustav Jung)
“Our only tradition is how to satisfy Viṣṇu.” (Lecture: Bhagavad-gita 1.43 — London, July 30, 1973)
“Vaisnava who is preaching, it may be in a different way, according to time and place and the party–they have to change something, desa-kala-patra–but we have to see the essence. “ (S.B. Lecture 10/18/74)
Srila prabhupada’s ritvik system does not change anything. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples were not formally initiated by him, nor had they even seen Him in person. But was there any question as to whose disciples they were? Of course not. So how come there is suddenly a problem with Srila Prabhupada remaining the current link in the disciplic succession today? Srila Prabhupada says that “The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.” (SB 2.9.8 : Purport) and “Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition.” (SB 7.7.1 : Purport) Why, then, is there controversy over whether Srila Prabhupada can become one’s Diksa guru today? Srila Prabhupada says “Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.” (C.c. Madhya, 4.111, Purport) It is very clear: Srila Prabhupada becoming one’s Diksa guru can never be checked just because He is apparently absent. Srila Prabhupada says:
“To become disciple means to surrender, voluntarily accepting the instruction, the advice, the order of the spiritual master.” (Lecture: Bhagavad-gita 2.10 — London, August 16, 1973)
“Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules. (Morning walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit)
Srila Prabhupada is available for everyone to approach in the form of His books. The system of initiations goes on with the ritviks performing the simple formalities, and Srila Prabhupada giving the real initiation: the transcendental knowledge, which has been recorded in and is being vibrated through His transcendental books. The disciplic succession goes on perfectly just as it always has: with the disciple hearing from His spiritual master and acting according to that instruction. Srila Prabhupada says:
“…disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.” (Letter – 1/10/69)
This is what the real tradition is in our disciplic succession, and this is the essence of Srila Prabhupada’s representative system that we should all see.
He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die
When thou art living still in sound!
The Vaisnavas die to live, and living try
To spread the holy name around!
(Poem by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)
In his Bhaktivedanta Purport, SB 4.8.54…Srila Prabhupada states
“Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.” (emphasis added).
So this is exactly what Srila Prabhupada has done. He set up a plan by his special mercy for his Society as the Founder-Acharya, for initiations to continue on his behalf henceforward.
Srila Prabhupada’s will also clearly states that if there is a change of executive directors of the Indian properties for whatever reason, the new directors must be ‘his initiated disciples’.
“3 e) Properties at Hyderbad: Mahāṁśa Swami, Śrīdhar Swami, Gopal Kṛṣṇa das Adhikārī and Bali Mardan das Adhikārī.
The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time.”
Srila Prabhupada did not make mistakes!
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Haribol,
Forgive my ignorance. I appreciate your article and am trying to work this out myself, but I am not completely convinced of your argument. Prabhupada says this in a lecture;
“Krishna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a PHYSICAL SPIRITUAL MASTER .” That is enjoined in the following verse:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadekshyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
(Bhagavad-Gita Lecture 4.34—New York, August 14, 1966)
If Prabhupada is no longer physically present, what is the meaning of this statement, then? How can it be reconciled? Why would he say this if it wasn’t required/ Prabhupada says ‘MUST’ here? Would like to know your opinion.
Marko
Hare Krsna Marko prabhu,
Thank you for your intelligent inquiry on this most important matter. As Srila Prabhupada explains in that lecture, Krsna, as the first spiritual master is the Caitya-guru situated in the heart. From within He assists the sincere seeker to find a bonafide pure devotee, who is the external manifestation (physical spiritual master) of the Paramatma. By the grace of Krsna, one finds guru, then by the grace of guru one finds Krsna.
So His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is that physical manifestation of Caitya-guru who is referred to in Bhagavad Gita 4:34. If you study the various quotes in the above article by Vidura prabhu, you will see that the physically manifest spiritual master does not have to be ‘personally present’ in order to impart divya jnana or divine knowledge. In fact Srila Prabhupada was not personally present during the formal initiation of most of his disciples, especially during the latter part of his manifest lila. Srila Prabhupada always stressed the importance of vani (service to his instructions in his absence) over vapu or physical presence.
To that end he gave us his books and Bhaktivedanta purports, which are the sublime standard (of course in original form) for the next ten thousand years. Srila Prabhupada is the current link in the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya and the physically manifest spiritual master, whether he is personally present or approachable in his vani manifestation.
Your humble servant,
Balaram das.
Mark G says: “Krishna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a PHYSICAL SPIRITUAL MASTER.” If Prabhupada is no longer physically present, what is the meaning of this statement, then? How can it be reconciled? Why would he say this if it wasn’t required/Prabhupada says ‘MUST’ here? Would like to know your opinion.
These questions were answered several years ago on <http://pratyatosa.com/?P=27> as follows:
(<http://pratyatosa.com/?P=27#ChristianExample>)
Marko – If you are genuine then you will not find problem in the following understanding:
The philosophy is SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE. Srila Prabhupada is PHYSICALLY PRESENT in HIS MURTI form AND Photos:
Letter to: Gurudasa —Mayapur 18 March, 1977 ( 77-03-18 Vrindaban)
My dear Gurudasa Maharaja,
In my room at Radha Damodara Temple you should keep one photo of me and offer to it Prasadam of Sri Radha Damodara.
Letters : 1972 Correspondence : December : Letter to: Tusta Krsna — Ahmedabad 14 December, 1972 : 72-12-14 :
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is more important than vapu.
Note: The FORMALITY Initiation fire sacrifice was NOT always conducted by Srila Prabhupada. This did NOT require his physical presence YET the MURTI or PHOTOS WERE PRESENT signifying the PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada DURING THE FORMALITY PROCESS OF INITIATION.
Conversations : 1976 Conversations : October, 1976 : Press Interview — October 16, 1976, Chandigarh : 761016iv.cha :
Prabhupāda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE. Formalites of 1st and 2nd Initiations WERE ALREADY IN PLACE AND Srila Prabhupada’s RITVIK REPRESENTATIVES AS PER JULY 9TH 1977 ORDER WERE TO DO THESE FORMALTIES ON HIS BEHALF” In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year.
Since Srila Prabhupada’s photo OR Murti is PHYSICAL that fulfills the “PHYSICAL ”
Madhya 24.330
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaiṣṇava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brāhmaṇa.
Note: the FORMALITIES of INITIATION BEING CONDUCTED ON BEHALF OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. The PHYSICAL presence was in form of PICTURE or Murti:
Letter to: Nityananda
—
Honolulu
23 May, 1976
76-05-23
New Orleans
My dear Nityananda das,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 18, 1976 and I have noted the contents with care.
If the Varnasramadharma can be instituted it is welcome, but it is a little difficult today to do. If it can be done we want that. Training is required. The things are there but who will take up the training? Otherwise, the symptoms are mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita and if according to the symptoms some training is given, it is alright. But, everyone is after money and as soon as money is there they drink, eat meat, illicit sex, so who is there to be tained as a Brahmin?
On your recommendation I am accepting Danny Miller and Michael McKinly for first initiation into Hare Krishna chanting. You can have sannyasis chant on their beads, and give them their spiritual names and beads at the fire sacrifice. They must abide by the regulative principles; no illicit-sex, no intoxication, no gambling, and no meat-eating, and chanting minimum of 16 rounds daily. Then there will be steady and sure progress. Their spiritual names are:
Danny—Kalaksara das
Michael—Gunavasa das
I hope that this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/pks
Haribol prabhus,
Thanks for the feedback and quotes.
I can see where you’re coming from, but from what I have been reading lately there seems to be quite a substantial amount of evidence from Srila Prabhupada that point to the contrary – that Krsna can indeed externally manifest as the pure devotee spiritual master whenever He pleases, and that He can still do so even after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada if He likes.
I am also not really convinced that Srila Prabhupada would tell us to go to a ‘physical spiritual master,’ which would also be the external manifestation of the Supersoul, if this process was not a continual one, even after Prabhupada’s disappearance. It seems way more natural and practical to me, something that Krsna would do just to help us more personally.
It all makes perfect sense to me and I am happy with that conclusion. I also respect your right to make your own conclusion.
Of course, Srila Prabhupada will always remain the Founder-Acarya, the preeminent acarya and siksa guru for ISKCON and the whole world, into Kali Yuga, for you me and everyone regardless.
In any case, thanks for the help, I appreciate it. Good luck with it all. I can see you are doing some good work and I wish you all the best.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Marko
Marko Prabhu
Hare Krsna!
ADDITIONAL POINT:
There is also another aspect for the appearing in PHYSICAL form EXTERNALLY – Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS are HIMSELF in his PHYSICAL form. “The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one EXTERNALLY as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. ”
Externally Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS are ALSO himself:. “There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. ”
Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: “The Creation of the Fourth Order” : SB 4.28: Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life : SB 4.28.52 : PURPORT :
When a person’s relative dies, renunciation is automatically visible. Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone’s heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramātmā feature sitting within everyone’s heart. The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta – 1975 Edition : Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters : Adi 1.35 : PURPORT :
If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
Dear Mark G Prabhu,
I agree with you that if Krishna so desires He can send the world a pure devotee. His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada is our proof of that!
Of course just because Krishna ‘can’ again externally manifest as the pure devotee spiritual master it doesn’t necessarily follow that He ‘has’.
I believe if there were another pure devotee spiritual master out there the world would know it as clearly as they knew/know it with Srila Prabhupada.
So my personal choice is to take direct shelter of Srila Prabhupada who is a pure devotee spiritual master ‘without a doubt’.
With respect, JFS.
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your question.
You quoted where Srila Prabhupada says that we have to go to a “physical” spiritual master, but then you create your own definition of the word “physical” as meaning a physically manifest body. Srila Prabhupada does not give such a definition in the lecture you quoted, nor does He give such a definition anywhere else. Instead we find that Srila Prabhupada numerously equates the spiritual master himself with the spiritual masters instructions. As a matter of fact, we find that Srila Prabhupada puts more stress on the instructions of the spiritual master – the vani.
Next you wrote that Lord Krsna can “indeed externally manifest as the pure devotee spiritual master whenever He pleases, and that He can still do so even after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada if He likes.”
Yes, Krsna certainly can, and He has. This external manifestation is Srila Prabhupada, His bonafide representative, and Srila Prabhupada is still living through His books/instructions, just like He said. So where is the problem? Krsna hasn’t chosen to send another representative to initiate devotees within ISKCON. How do we know this? Because we find no such authorization from Srila Prabhupada. This is not a problem, however, as some devotees think. It is not a “break” in the disciplic succession because we are still hearing from a bonafide source, who happens to be the most current link in the disciplic succession.
I hope this answered your questions.
Thank you to Balarama and Mahesh Prabhu’s for presenting their excellent points as well.
Your servant,
Vidura das
Hare Krsna prabhu,
I understand your slant on things, however Prabhupada doesn’t say, ‘Go to my books’ here for Bg 4.34. He still states, ‘You must go a to a physical spiritual master.’ He also doesn’t say, ‘Go to my photo.’
That being said, I respect your choices.
Your servant,
Marko
Marko prabhu: Of course, Srila Prabhupada will always remain the Founder-Acarya, the preeminent acarya and siksa guru for ISKCON and the whole world, into Kali Yuga, for you me and everyone regardless.
Mahesh: Except for one VERY IMPORTANT THING – the PROMINENT ACARYA IS TO BE ACCEPTED AND FOLLOWED AND IT IS ONLY THE ACARYA THAT -CAN- INITIATE (SEE NOD REGARDS INITIATION QUOTED AS ACARYA). WHICH MEANS ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA IS THAT ACARYA AS HE IS THE PROMINENT AND THEREFORE TO BE ACCEPTED FOR INITIATION.
Note: We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. Srila Prabhupada is the PROMINENT ACARYA.
1968 Correspondence : April : Letter to: Dayananda — San Francisco 12 April, 1968 : 68-04-12 :
Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system—namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.
Note:Regarding accepting initiation from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 17th Chapter, 22nd verse, refers to ACCEPTING ACARYA FOR INITIATION.
IF HE IS NOT ACARYA : NO INITIATION.
The Nectar of Devotion – 1970 Edition : NoD 7: Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles : To Serve the Spiritual Master with Faith and Confidence :
Regarding accepting initiation from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 17th Chapter, 22nd verse, it is stated by Lord Kṛṣṇa: “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master, one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Note: SAME acarya verse.
Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters > Adi 1.46
TEXT 46
ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān
nāvamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyāsūyeta
sarva-deva-mayo guruḥ
SYNONYMS
ācāryam—the spiritual master; mām—Myself; vijānīyāt—one should know; na avamanyeta—one should never disrespect; karhicit—at any time; na—never; martya-buddhyā—with the idea of his being an ordinary man; asūyeta—one should be envious; sarva-deva—of all demigods; mayaḥ—representative; guruḥ—the spiritual master.
TRANSLATION
“One should know the ācārya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.”
PURPORT
This is a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. He was specifically instructing how a brahmacārī should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.
The spiritual master is also called ācārya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science. The Manu-saṁhitā (2.140) explains the duties of an ācārya, describing that a bona fide spiritual master accepts charge of disciples, teaches them the Vedic knowledge with all its intricacies, and gives them their second birth. The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upanīti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a śūdra. The sacred thread on the body of a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya is a symbol of initiation by the spiritual master; it is worth nothing if worn merely to boast of high parentage. The duty of the spiritual master is to initiate a disciple with the sacred thread ceremony, and after this saṁskāra, or purificatory process, the spiritual master actually begins to teach the disciple about the Vedas. A person born a śūdra is not barred from such spiritual initiation, provided he is approved by the spiritual master, who is duly authorized to award a disciple the right to be a brāhmaṇa if he finds him perfectly qualified. In the Vāyu Purāṇa an ācārya is defined as one who knows the import of all Vedic literature, explains the purpose of the Vedas, abides by their rules and regulations, and teaches his disciples to act in the same way.
Only out of His immense compassion does the Personality of Godhead reveal Himself as the spiritual master. Therefore in the dealings of an ācārya there are no activities but those of transcendental loving service to the Lord. He is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead. It is worthwhile to take shelter of such a steady devotee, who is called āśraya-vigraha, or the manifestation or form of the Lord of whom one must take shelter.
If one poses himself as an ācārya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an ācārya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as ācāryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real ācārya. In fact, however, a bona fide ācārya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an ācārya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive of transcendental realization.
As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with Śrī Kṛṣṇa in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their disciples, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.
The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Śrīla Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (Śrī Kṛṣṇa). Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly defined that a pure devotee’s observation of the spiritual master and Lord Śiva as one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects. Following in the footsteps of Śrīla Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī and Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, later ācāryas like Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas therefore worship Śrīla Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient scriptures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and other unalloyed Vaiṣṇavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī or a manifested representation of Śrīla Nityānanda Prabhu.
Note: Srila Prabhupada IS the INITIATOR:
1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968, San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.
Letter to: Madhudvisa: Detroit 4 August, 1975 (75-08-04) Melbourne
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
We Accept The Author As Our Bonafide Spirtual Master
Regarding the article Hearing: The Real Tradition by Vidura Dasa. This is a most intricate and clear presentation dealing with the subject of “accepting a physically manifest guru”. Very nicely done and very informative.
Srila Prabhupada never recommended enmasse that his disciples seek anyone else to link too and serve other than himself after his physical departure. He reinforces his position as the pure devotee to serve and take shelter of through out his books. It is more than obvious that by being the commentator on the Caitanya Caritamrta for example the qualified person to seek out as a bona fide guru is himself. Otherwise how could he compose his commentaries. No one else in ISKCON has written independent commentaries on the CC so who is the most qualified? Srila Prabhupada. And because he is the most qualified to imagine that not being physically present would have any affect on his books is illogical and ludicrous. Therefore by reading and following the teachings throughout his books is the same as having his association, you get his association through his books and you get Srila Prabhupada. Once someone makes that preliminary contact with Srila Prabhupada and accepts him as their prime teacher progress begins, not that the acceptance is the end of the affair. One must constantly read Srila Prabhupadas books and follow as sincerely as possible all of his instructions and that is where the fun begins because this Krsna consciousness is the most joyful of all states of being. Some of what Srila says about the necessity of accepting a bona fide spiritual master is presented below in the Adi-lila of the Caitanya Caritamrta courtesy Causlessmercy.com http://causelessmercy.com/
Adi8.17
TEXT 17
TRANSLATION
“By cultivating philosophical knowledge one can understand his spiritual position and thus be liberated, and by performing sacrifices and pious activities one can achieve sense gratification in a higher planetary system, but the devotional service of the Lord is so rare that even by executing hundreds and thousands of such sacrifices one cannot obtain it.”
PURPORT
Prahlāda Mahārāja instructs:
matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā
mitho ’bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām
(Bhāg. 7.5.30)
naiṣāṁ matis tāvad urukramāṅghriṁ
spṛśaty anarthāpagamo yad-arthaḥ
mahīyasāṁ pāda-rajo-’bhiṣekaṁ
niṣkiñcanānāṁ na vṛṇīta yāvat
(
Bhāg. 7.5.32)
These ślokas are to be discussed. Their purport is that one cannot obtain kṛṣṇa-bhakti, or the devotional service of the Lord, by official execution of the Vedic rituals.
** One has to approach a pure devotee. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā:
“Who has been elevated without rendering service to a pure Vaiṣṇava?” It is the statement of Prahlāda Mahārāja that unless one is able to accept the dust from the lotus feet of a pure Vaiṣṇava there is no possibility of achieving the platform of devotional service. That is the secret.**
The above-mentioned tantra-vacana, quoted from the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.1.36), is our perfect guidance in this connection.
********
Now in the final selected section of Adi-lila for this comment Srila Prabhupada refers to a pure devotee being necessary to take shelter of and to serve. Is he not automatically including himself in that qualified position? Yes he is because if he were not then he would not have written his commentaries on the Caitanya Caritamrta. Association of Srila Prabhupada takes place while reading his original pre 1978 books and the reader becomes eligible to go back home back to Godhead. Supreme association, supreme destination. Association means destination.
Adi-lila Chapter 8 Test 20 page 174
The two brothers Jagāi and Mādhāi epitomize the sinful population of this Age of Kali. They were most disturbing elements in society because they were meat-eaters, drunkards, woman-hunters, rogues and thieves. Yet Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu delivered them, to say nothing of others who were sober, pious, devoted and conscientious. The Bhagavad-gītā confirms that to say nothing of the brahminically qualified devotees and rājarṣis (kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā),
*** anyone who by the association of a pure devotee comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness becomes eligible to go back home, back to Godhead.***
In the Bhagavad-gītā (9.32) the Lord thus declares:
māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye ’pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
te ’pi yānti parāṁ gatim
“O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth-women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]-can approach the supreme destination.”
Finally for all those reading this web site and Srila Prabhupadas books:
Adi8.15
TEXT 15
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra
vicāra karite citte pābe camatkāra
If you are indeed interested in logic and argument, kindly apply it to the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. If you do so, you will find it to be strikingly wonderful.
Ys Hasti Gopala Dasa
Hare Krsna prabhus,
Yes, I see your point, but I prefer to take Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements on this one. As Bg 4.34 is a contentious verse for many, I can see that he made it very, very clear for us when he said;
“Krishna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a PHYSICAL SPIRITUAL MASTER .” That is enjoined in the following verse:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadekshyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
(Bhagavad-Gita Lecture 4.34—New York, August 14, 1966)
Not to ‘a book,’ not to ‘a photo.’ To physically manifest guru. He states that this is what this verse actually means. I have also read and understood now that the guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul and can manifest when and where He likes. I will take Prabhupada’s word on this one. I prefer the threads woven by Vraja Vilasa prabhu. They make practical and logical sense to me.
However, keep your chins up, prabhus! Good luck with it all.
Thanks again for the discussion.
Marko
Hare Krsna prabhus,
I like your arguments. Interesting.
Regarding Vidura prabhu’s point above, I found this definition of the word ‘physically,’
Adjective: Of or relating to the BODY as opposed to the mind.
Noun: A medical examination to determine a person’s BODILY fitness.
Synonyms:
adjective. material – corporeal – BODILY – corporal
noun. physical (BODILY) examination
Definition of ‘manifest’: Readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight.
So, ‘physically manifest’ seems to me to mean exactly what it says and what sastra says, Krsna appears as guru in a physical form which you can visibly see with your eyes. Just like the deity is manifest before us. We cannot see 4th dimension with material eyes, so guru appears before us and this is what Prabhupada says here. I don’t believe that you can extrapolate this to mean a ‘book’ or ‘photo,’ although I do understand the point that guru is non-different from photo and sastra is incarnation of Krsna. Srila Prabhupada could have easily used the words ‘go to book’ or go to photo’ but he didn’t. I am sure he was aware that his books will be referenced for the rest of Kali Yuga, so I am sure he didn’t any make mistake here.
I think in this instance that Srila Prabhupada is making it very easy and apparent for us conditioned souls. I am happy not to interpret this otherwise than his direct meaning.
Anyway, happy chatting! Am enjoying this discussion.
Ys,
Marko
The foolish ritviks are patting their backs with compliments.
As the saying goes “Self praise is no praise”.
Remember, the ritviks issue is about their bogus post samadhi ritvik
initiation and falsely claiming to be Srila Prabhupada’s disciple.
If it is that Srila Prabhupada wanted to continue to be the
initiating guru after his departure, he would have plainly
said so. No need for the ritviks to come with so many unrelated
quotes to support their foolish idea of post samadhi ritvik
initiation.
“Letter to Hamsaduta — Mayapur 1 October, 1974
From Madhavananda I have heard that there is some worship of yourself
by the other devotees. Of course it is proper to offer obeisances to
a Vaisnava, but not in the presence of the spiritual master. After the
departure of the spiritual master, it will come to that stage, but now
wait. Otherwise it will create factions.”
“A devotee should have intelligence to know who is deviating. Surrender
by your intelligence but don’t surrender your intelligence.”
(SP to Bali Mardana, 1974)
HARE KRSNA
Dear Mark,
Hare Krsna.
Srila Prabhupada’s books are related to the body. He wrote them Himself. They are as good as Himself. That’s what Srila Prabhupada said. The books are physical, and Srila Prabhupada factually lives through them. The books answer all of our questions, and the books hold Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to us, which we are supposed to carry out with determination. That in itself constitutes initiation, and that is service to Srila Prabhupada. Today we approach Srila Prabhupada, who is a physical spiritual master, through His books, which are His physical instructions to us. They are the direct instructions to us from Krsna’s bonafide representative since we are not pure enough to receive instructions directly from the supersoul. Don’t take it from me – take it from Srila Prabhupada. He says this. He makes these points. I have simply copied and pasted them in the above article.
SG said:
“If it is that Srila Prabhupada wanted to continue to be the
initiating guru after his departure, he would have plainly
said so.”
Let me acquaint you with this instance:
“Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.”
July 9th 1977 Directive to all temple presidents
I am surprised you had not come across this important letter! You’re welcome.
Hare Krsna SG, Marko PRABHUS
“A devotee should have intelligence to know who is deviating. Surrender
by your intelligence but don’t surrender your intelligence.”
(SP to Bali Mardana, 1974)
NICE quote from OUR ETERNAL BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA – thank-you very much!
Yeah! some folks think Bonafide Diksa guru to be like picking some tomatoe in a basket full of tomatoes in the market if there is few rotten ones – so what – you get to pick the right one – at some time. But then – there is that GM tomatoe that causes BIG swelling on your face AND in INSIDES and you get CANCER. But hey! YOU get to choose YOUR tomatoe like to the system in BOGUS ISKCON gurus? The Tomatoe you choose – can mislead you- But hey – Krsna is HERE in the material world too! So no problem!
YOU folks go ahead be OUR PRABHUPADANUGA GUESTS – FREEDOM OF CHOICE be VERY VERY HAPPY – AFTER ALL BIG huge basket FULL of tomatoes -ALL RED AND JUICY. In any case CANCER is CANCER you gota die some day! NOBODY lives forever – Right!
You may? (ONLY Krsna Knows) get there in the end – after many creations have come and gone with YOUR chosen TOMATOE – BE HAPPY!
Hare Krsna!
Vidura Prabhu wrote:
Dear Mark,
Hare Krsna.
Srila Prabhupada’s books are related to the body. He wrote them Himself. They are as good as Himself. That’s what Srila Prabhupada said. The books are physical, and Srila Prabhupada factually lives through them. The books answer all of our questions, and the books hold Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to us, which we are supposed to carry out with determination. That in itself constitutes initiation, and that is service to Srila Prabhupada. Today we approach Srila Prabhupada, who is a physical spiritual master, through His books, which are His physical instructions to us. They are the direct instructions to us from Krsna’s bonafide representative since we are not pure enough to receive instructions directly from the supersoul. Don’t take it from me — take it from Srila Prabhupada. He says this. He makes these points. I have simply copied and pasted them in the above article.
Mahesh: folks like “Marko” or whatever his actual name is – they DO NOT ACTUALLY ACCEPT SRILA PRABHUPADA AS AUTHORITY. The have come WITH ULTERIOR MOTIVES. THEY DO NOT WANT SRILA PRABHUPADA —THIS IS A FACT! This is WHY they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT DIKSA GURU. ALL of OUR PRABHUPADANUGAS ACCEPT THE ABOVE these guys do NOT. They want to USE Srila Prabhupada for their ULTERIOR MOTIVES.
The word “EXTERNALLY” – THIS MEANS YOU HAVE TO SEE SOME FORM. SRILA PRABHUPADA, HIS BOOKS, AND HIS MURTI AND HIS PHOTO ARE EXTERNAL MANIFESTATIONS OF THE GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA. THEY -ARE- PHYSICAL FORMS TO VISUALISE EXTERNALLY. SINCE THESE FOLKS HAVE COME WITH ULTERIOR MOTIVE THEY DENY THIS. THEY JUST DO NOT WANT SRILA PRABHUPADA -SO MAYA GIVES THEM A CHEATER INSTEAD – AND NOT ONLY THAT THEY HAVE TO ROT IN THE MATERIAL WORLD MANY MANY MANY CREATIONS WILL COME AND GO IN VARIOUS DEMONIAC SPECIES OF LIFE – JUST FOR DENYING THE MASTER LORD KRSNA HAS SENT AS HIS REPRESENTATIVE.
You can NOT wake-up a person who is PRETENDING TO SLEEP. They have come with ULTERIOR MOTIVES to DENY SRILA PRABHUPADA THE MASTER. OK play the game of LIVING IN DENIAL and FACE THE CONSEQUENCES. FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
ANYONE who is SINCERE will accept:
There is also another aspect for the appearing in PHYSICAL form EXTERNALLY — Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS are HIMSELF in his PHYSICAL form. “The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one EXTERNALLY as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. ”
Externally Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS are ALSO himself:. “There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. ”
Srimad-Bhagavatam : Canto 4: “The Creation of the Fourth Order” : SB 4.28: Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life : SB 4.28.52 : PURPORT :
When a person’s relative dies, renunciation is automatically visible. Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone’s heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramātmā feature sitting within everyone’s heart. The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta — 1975 Edition : Cc. Adi-lila : Adi 1: The Spiritual Masters : Adi 1.35 : PURPORT :
If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
THIS IS SOOOOOO CLEAR TO ANYONE WHO IS SINCERE. SIMPLE AS THAT.
So –the ANTI RITVIK CROOKS want to play at being mischievous BY DENYING Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT DIKSA GURU FOR ISKCON . Next body is READY dictated by Lord Krsna in various demoniac species of life. ENJOY.
Bg 16 > Bg 16.19
TEXT 19
tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān
saṁsāreṣu narādhamān
kṣipāmy ajasram aśubhān
āsurīṣv eva yoniṣu
SYNONYMS
tān—those; aham—I; dviṣataḥ—envious; krūrān—mischievous; saṁsāreṣu—into the ocean of material existence; narādhamān—the lowest of mankind; kṣipāmi—put; ajasram—innumerable; aśubhān—inauspicious; āsurīṣu—demoniac; eva—certainly; yoniṣu—in the wombs.
TRANSLATION
Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.
PURPORT
In this verse it is clearly indicated that the placing of a particular individual soul in a particular body is the prerogative of the supreme will. The demoniac person may not agree to accept the supremacy of the Lord, and it is a fact that he may act according to his own whims, but his next birth will depend upon the decision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not on himself. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Third Canto, it is stated that an individual soul, after his death, is put into the womb of a mother where he gets a particular type of body under the supervision of superior power. Therefore in the material existence we find so many species of life-animals, insects, men, and so on. All are arranged by the superior power. They are not accidental. As for the demoniac, it is clearly said here that they are perpetually put into the wombs of demons, and thus they continue to be envious, the lowest of mankind. Such demoniac species of life are held to be always full of lust, always violent and hateful and always unclean. They are just like so many beasts in a jungle.
Hare Krsna Marko prabhu,
If you are genuine in your inquiry, please try to understand that in the lecture you referred to, the point Srila Prabhupada is stating is that you cannot receive instruction or initiation directly from Caitya-guru, the Lord in the heart. This is the sahajiya mentality of thinking a conditioned soul is directly in touch with Krsna or can copy His Lila. He is simply explaining the difference of guru from ‘within’ and guru from ‘without’. The guru from without is the “physical spiritual master”, the one who has physically manifested to lead us back to Krsna. As explained repeatedly, Srila Prabhupada was not “personally present” for most of his disciples, especially initiations, but that doesn’t mean he was not a ‘physical spiritual master’.
Srila Prabhupada was and still is the ‘physical’ spiritual master Krsna tells us to approach for divya jnana. Mostly we approached Srila Prabhupada through his books and his disciples, and were extremely fortunate if we had even a small amount of personal association. I first saw Srila Prabhupada on TV in an interview in 1972 and by the mercy of his disciples, started chanting and reading his books and received initiation from him on his next visit to Australia in February 1973. In turn, later as a Temple president , I referred many devotees to Srila Prabhupada for first or second initiation, usually by mail because he was not personally present. After receiving the names, beads and sacred threads also by mail, the initiation ceremonies were performed without Srila Prabhupada’s personal presence, but by his authority. That authority is still there in his final instructions on initiations in the 9th July 1977 document/letter, where he appointed ritvik representatives of the Acharya to continue the process of ongoing initiations…not gurus or even future gurus!
So Srila Prabhupada was and is the physical spiritual master. He is still the current Founder-Acharya of ISKCON (as he stated ‘his body’) and he lives through his books and instructions. FYI you may like to read an article posted in Prabhupadanugas by Gauridas Pandit prabhu back in February ’09.
“Prabhupada is still the Guru in ISKCON” http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=2891
Trust this finds you well and helps with your inquiries.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Vidura das says:
20. July 2013 at 5:05 pm
“July 9th 1977 Directive to all temple presidents
I am surprised you had not come across this important letter!
You’re welcome.”
Well, thank you, Vidura dasa. I am just as surprised you did not
quote the rest of the instructions given in the July 9th letter.
What happened. The rest of the instructions are not important,
not relevant.?
HARE KRSNA
Mahesh Raja says:
20. July 2013 at 5:54 pm
“YOU folks go ahead be OUR PRABHUPADANUGA GUESTS — FREEDOM OF CHOICE
be VERY VERY HAPPY — AFTER ALL BIG huge basket FULL of tomatoes -ALL
RED AND JUICY. In any case CANCER is CANCER you gota die some day!
NOBODY lives forever — Right!
You may? (ONLY Krsna Knows) get there in the end — after many creations
have come and gone with YOUR chosen TOMATOE — BE HAPPY! ”
SG — Why it is that we should be the guests of Prabhupadanugas? Are
the ritviks are now claiming sole proprietorship of Srila Prabhupada and
all he represents or is it just the self proclaimed maha yogi Mahesh
Raja saying so. I was right when I said earlier the kettle calling the
pot black.
You, Mahesh Raja may after many creations get there in the end but there
are some of us who don’t see it that way.
What the guru says we accept without interpretation or argument unlike you
who profess that Srila Prabhupada is your diksa guru but interpret and argue
on whatever he says.
By doing that you are saying you are more intelligent and more realized than
your diksa guru. Great! Wonder why you need a guru for.
When the guru says with a SERIOUS AND SINCERE attitude one may go back home
in this life it means just that. Nothing to foolishly argue or interpret.
The opposite is that if one is not SERIOUS AND SINCERE he or she will not
be able to go home in one’s life. Its that simple to understand.
You simply lack spiritual understanding. You do not have 100% complete faith
in the words of your diksa guru, Srila Prabhupada and the words of the Supreme
Spiritual Master, Sri Krsna and accept their spoken words to be the truth.
To have doubts in the guru’s statement means you still have some material
attachment in your heart, some attachment for Maya devi. You are unable to
surrender completely to the spiritual master, to his instructions.
So, you challenge the spiritual master, contradict or interpret his spoken
words/statements/instructions.
Mahesh Raja’s interpretation :
MR — ” Yes – it is possible ONLY for those who ACCEPT
Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA Guru OTHERWISE IF THEY REJECT
JULY 9TH 1977 RITVIK ORDER THEY ARE DOOMED! The ANTI
Ritviks have appointment with YAMARAJA — no question
of missing the appointment Yamaduttas will come to
transport them for judgement where they accept next
material body of cats dogs hogs pigs snakes”
AND THIS :
MR — “There is no contradiction — one simply has to see that
Dhruva Maharaja’s level was a RARE case — “because in one lifetime,
by dint of his SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES , he had achieved
Vaikuntha.
So WHO is going to do SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES ?
SG prabhu what you have pointed out is a young child so determined to
practice severe penances and austerities. Now if you see the GENERAL
section of society they can not even follow properly the 4 regs and
chanting 16 rounds what to speak of SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES.
The philosophy is simultaneous oness and different ie for the RARE soul
who can do SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES one can go back in one life
BUT for the GENERAL folks IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN
ONE LIFE. It is NOT so cheap.”
AND THIS :
MR — “you don’t make it a cheap sahjiya thing. The words “SERIOUS AND
SINCERE AS DHRUVA MAHARAJ” are there. Without SENSE CONTROL as
AS SERIOUS AND SINCERE AS DHRUVA MAHARAJ you can NOT attain
Vaikuntha in ONE LIFE time. ”
against Srila Prabhupada statement :
“The LESSON from the life of Druva Maharaj is that
if ONE LIKES, one can attain Vaikuntha loka in one life,
without waiting for many other lifes.
My guru maharaj, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami
Prabhupada, used to say that EVERY ONE OF HIS DISCIPLES COULD
ATTAIN VAIKUNTHALOKA IN THIS LIFE, WITHOUT WAITING FOR ANOTHER
LIFE TO EXECUTE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE.
One simply has to become AS SERIOUS AND SINCERE AS Dhruva
Maharaj; then it is quite possible to attain Vaikuntha Loka
and go back home back to Godhead in one life”
Different yugas, different process of devotional services are
recommended. In this age of hypocrisy and ignorance it is the
chanting of the Holy Name, the Hare Krsna Maha Mantra.
HARE KRSNA
SG says:Well, thank you, Vidura dasa. I am just as surprised you did not quote the rest of the instructions given in the July 9th letter. What happened? The rest of the instructions are not important, not relevant?
There is some rule that either an entire document must be quoted or none at all? Where is that rule? SG Prabhu, you are simply being an irrational fault-finder, desperately grasping at straws to try to win your extremely weak case against Srila Prabhupabhu’s ingenious ritvik system of initiations. His July 9, 1977 directive to all temple presidents and GBC men clearly prescribes:
…for future initiations within ISKCON. Only fools and self-motivated rascals fail to understand this crystal-clear directive.
The current ISKCON GBC body, which has chosen to ignore Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th directive, has concocted a multiple guru system, which has caused factions within ISKCON just as he predicted. This mistake will inevitably be rectified, but the longer that the ISKCON leaders delay this rectification, the more that they are going to have to suffer.
I challenge you to defeat anything written on <http://rtvik.com/>.
I was there and I was the only one who tape recorded the lecture wherein Srila Prabhupada spoke the following:
(Initiation lecture, Boston, December 26, 1969)
Hare Krsna SG.
You wrote:
“Well, thank you, Vidura dasa. I am just as surprised you did not
quote the rest of the instructions given in the July 9th letter.
What happened. The rest of the instructions are not important,
not relevant.?”
The part I quoted from the July 9th Letter sufficiently made my point: that Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted to continue to be the initiating guru after His departure, and that He clearly stated this.
Since you have accused me of taking this point out of context, you must show me how any of the content OTHER than the content that I quoted in some way or other modifies my point.
If you are unable to do that then you should withdraw your accusation of me taking my point out of context.
Thank you
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
21. July 2013 at 11:38 am
“There is some rule that either an entire document must be quoted
or none at all? Where is that rule? SG Prabhu, you are simply being
an irrational fault-finder, desperately grasping at straws to try
to win your extremely weak case against Srila Prabhupabhu’s ingenious
ritvik system of initiations. His July 9, 1977 directive to all temple
presidents and GBC men clearly prescribes:
Rivik henceforward.
…for future initiations within ISKCON. Only fools and self-motivated
rascals fail to understand this crystal-clear directive.”
SG — My question still stands. Are not the rest of the instructions
given in July 9th 1977 letter just as important. Are they not relevant
also.
When an instruction is given by the spiritual master, does his disciple/s
pick and choose and follow according to their liking, convenience or
desire or are they suppose to accept the complete instruction end to end
and follow accordingly.
HARE KRSNA
Hare Krsna!
SG — My question still stands. Are not the rest of the instructions
given in July 9th 1977 letter just as important? Are they not relevant
also?
Mahesh: SG you have to read PROPERLY:
Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad
SG -When an instruction is given by the spiritual master, does his disciple/s
pick and choose and follow according to their liking, convenience or
desire or are they suppose to accept the complete instruction end to end
and follow accordingly.
Mahesh: SG do not be a hypocrite read and ACCEPT the following conclusion:
Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview — March 12, 1968, San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the spiritual master of this institution, and all the members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.
Letters : 1975 Correspondence : August : Letter to: Madhudvisa: — Detroit 4 August, 1975 : 75-08-04 :
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform.
Vidura das says: Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted to continue to be the initiating guru after His departure, and that He clearly stated this.
Pronouns referring to a pure devotee of the Lord should not be capitalized. This is Srila Prabhupada’s direct order. We are not mayavadis.
Thank you Mahesh Prabhu and Pratyatosa.
SG, you have ignored my comment. Please explain to us exactly which part of the July 9th Letter might modify the conclusion that we have taken from it.
Vidura Prabhu asked me via private email to quote Srila Prabhupada stating that pronouns in the middle of sentences which refer to pure devotees should not be capitalized. Since this is a topic which, IMHO, bears repeating, I am quoting my answer to him here:
To the above comment by Pratyatosa prabhu,
Thank you for showing me this. I had asked to see only for my own personal records. It wasn’t that I did not believe you. I like to save and document all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on my computer. I will have to be more careful now when dealing with pronouns!
Hare Krsna!
ys,
Vidura das
Mahesh Raja says:
22. July 2013 at 10:17 am
Mahesh: SG you have to read PROPERLY
“Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives ……..
The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad”
SG — Are you trying to say that when the spiritual master gives
an order or an instruction the disciple can choose and pick the
part of the instruction he likes or suits him and ignore the part
he does not like.
In your case, Mahesh Raja, I am referring to your quote above from
the July 9th 1977 letter.
Mahesh: SG do not be a hypocrite read and ACCEPT the following conclusion
“Conversations : 1968 Conversations : March, 1968 : Radio Interview —
March 12, 1968, San Francisco : 680312iv.sf :
SG — You don’t even know when to call a person a hypocrite. As for your
above radio interview quote in which part of the July 9th 1977 letter
is this given ?
HARE KRSNA
Vidura das says:
21. July 2013 at 11:15 pm
VD — “Since you have accused me of taking this point out of context,
you must show me how any of the content OTHER than the content
that I quoted in some way or other modifies my point.
If you are unable to do that then you should withdraw your accusation
of me taking my point out of context.”
SG — What happened Vidura dasa. Did I bruise your ego by asking you
a relevant question.
VD — The part I quoted from the July 9th Letter sufficiently made my point:
that Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted to continue to be the initiating guru
after His departure, and that He clearly stated this.
SG — You seem to be so cocksure about it. So, point out to us (in those exact words),
in which part of the July 9th 1977 letter has Srila Prabhupada clearly stated that
he wanted to continue to be the initiating guru after his departure from this planet?
HARE KRSNA
“One who accepts argument as his guru and who learns the process of
worship from such a guru is said to have accepted the shelter of a
bogus guru.”
The maha-mantra (Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare) is also simply an
address to the Lord and His energy. So to anyone who is constantly
engaged in addressing the Lord and His energy, we can imagine how
much the Supreme Lord is obliged. It is impossible for the Lord to
ever forget such a devotee. It is clearly stated in this verse that
anyone who addresses the Lord immediately attracts the attention of
the Lord, who always remains obliged to him.
Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names [japa] (BG 10.25)
Of all sacrifices, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna,
Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is the purest
representation of Krsna. Sometimes animal sacrifices are recommended,
but in the sacrifice of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, there is no question
of violence. It is the simplest and the purest. (BG 10.25 purport).
In three out of the four millenniums (namely Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga
and Dvapara-yuga) people had the honor to be able to understand
transcendence through the path of disciplic succession. However,
in the present age, people have no interest in the disciplic succession.
Instead, they have invented many paths of logic and argument. This
individual attempt to understand the supreme transcendence (called the
ascending process) is not approved by the Vedas. The Absolute Truth must
descend from the absolute platform. He is not to be understood by the
ascending process. The holy name of the Lord—Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna
Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare—is a transcendental
vibration because it comes from the transcendental platform, the supreme abode
of Krsna. Because there is no difference between Krsna and His name, the holy
name of Krsna is as pure, perfect and liberated as Krsna Himself. Academic scholars
have no entrance by means of logic and other argument into the understanding of the
transcendental nature of the holy name of God. The single path in understanding the
transcendental nature of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama,
Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is the chanting of these names with faith and adherence.
Such chanting will release one from designated conditions arising from the gross and
subtle bodies. (TLC 18 Conversations with Prakacananda)
HARE KRSNA