Mark: It is wishful thinking on your part that what I said is not true, because if it IS true, you cannot lord it over everyone telling them unless they become qualified as a brahmana that they are not even a neophyte (kanistha) Vaisnava.
Mahesh: here is what Srila Prabhupada says:
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a QUALIFIED brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye pujam yah sraddhayehate na tad-bhaktesu canyesu sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. AND BELOW THE BRAHMANA THERE IS NO QUESTION OF VAISNAVA.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: KANISTHA-ADHIKARI. THEY ARE NOT DEVOTEES, BUT THEY ARE CALLED BHAKTABHASA. THERE IS SOME SIGNS OF BHAKTI. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
770214r2.may
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can… AS A SUDRA, HE CAN GET THE PERFECTION
Sudra is in the mode of IGNORANCE. BUT if he follows the rules and regulations 16 rounds Hare Krsna plus 4 Regulative principles etc STRICTLY he is GRADUALLY ELEVATED this means he is NO LONGER in the mode of ignorance. This means coming to BRAHMANA PLATFORM. You can NOT say that PERFECTION of Sudra means remains in IGNORANCE. THAT is a CONTRADICTION. Sudra’s PERFECTION does NOT mean he REMAINS in mode of Ignorance. If he REMAINS in mode of ignorance he goes ADHO GACCHANTI TAMASAH ; AND THOSE IN THE MODE OF IGNORANCE GO DOWN TO THE HELLISH WORLDS.
Bg 14.18 T The Three Modes Of Material Nature
URDHVAM GACCHANTI SATTVA-STHA
madhye tisthanti rajasah
jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
ADHO GACCHANTI TAMASAH
SYNONYMS
urdhvam–upwards; gacchanti–go; sattva-sthah–one who is situated in the mode of goodness; madhye–in the middle; tisthanti–dwell; rajasah–those who are situated in the mode of passion; jaghanya–abominable; guna–quality; vrtti-sthah–occupation; adhah–down; gacchanti–go; tamasah–people in the mode of ignorance.
TRANSLATION
Bg 14.18 T The Three Modes Of Material Nature
THOSE SITUATED IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS GRADUALLY GO UPWARD TO THE HIGHER PLANETS; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; AND THOSE IN THE MODE OF IGNORANCE GO DOWN TO THE HELLISH WORLDS.
ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti
750515dc.per
Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That’s all. This is our aim. EVEN IF HE IS FOURTH-CLASS MAN, IT DOESN’T MATTER. IF HE TAKES UP THE TRAINING, HE BECOMES FIRST CLASS. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, EVEN IF HE IS NOT LIBERATED, HE GOES IN HIGHER PLANETARY SYSTEM AMONGST THE DEMIGODS. THEN THERE HE GETS MORE ADVANCED. HE GOES TO BRAHMĀ. IF HE IS NOT DIRECTLY TRANSFERRED TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, THEN HE GETS THESE FACILITIES. AND WITH BRAHMĀ, AT THE END OF THIS CREATION, ANNIHILATION, THEY GO TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.
Note: What Srila Prabhupada does NOT want is ARTIFICIALLY rubber-stamp sudra as Brahmana. Like what was happening at the time. You have to engage in the occupation you are fit.
770214r2.may
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can… AS A SUDRA, HE CAN GET THE PERFECTION. WHY HE SHOULD ARTIFICIALLY BECOME A BRAHMANA AND SANNYASI AND FALL DOWN? THIS HAS TO BE CHECKED.
721107SB.VRN Lectures
In the Bhagavad-gita, the division of the society is given there: catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. According to guna and according to karma, there are four classes of men. THE FIRST CLASS MEN, THE BRAHMANAS, BECAUSE THEY ARE ON THE PLATFORM OF GOODNESS. GOODNESS MEANS THEY CAN SEE. ONE WHO IS QUALIFIED BRAHMANA, HE CAN SEE WHAT IS WHAT, WHAT IS THIS WORLD, WHAT IS GOD, WHAT THE HUMAN BEING… EVERYTHING IS CLEARLY PRAKASA. IT IS CALLED PRAKASA, ILLUMINATION. IF ONE IS SITUATED IN THE MODES OF GOODNESS, PLATFORM OF GOODNESS, HE CAN SEE THINGS AS THEY ARE. PRAKASA. AND THE NEXT STAGE IS PASSION, PRODUCTIVE. PRODUCTIVE, RULING, ADMINISTRATING, LIKE THAT. CREATION. JUST LIKE THE KING’S ROYAL ORDERS, THEY WANT TO CONQUER EXPANSIVE KINGDOM. AND NEXT STAGE IS MIXED-UP–IGNORANCE AND PASSION. THAT IS THE STAGE OF VAISYAS. THEY WANT SIMPLY MONEY, SOMEHOW OR OTHER. THEY DO NOT CARE FOR ANYTHING, THE VAISYA. BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, VAISYA AND SUDRA. SUDRA, THEY ARE COMPLETELY IGNORANT. They cannot produce anything, neither they have got any enthusiasm for ruling or administration. So their business is to submit to the higher classes and live peacefully. These are the divisions of the society. But all of them are required for upkeep of the society.
Note: the WHOLE process is to come OUT of the material modes by GRADUAL elevation to the QUALIFIED Brahmana THEN transcend THAT to come to the QUALIFIED VAISNAVA platform.
SB 1.2.19 P Divinity and Divine Service
The soul’s activity becomes adulterated in contact with matter, and as such the diseased activities are expressed in the form of lust, desire, hankering, inactivity, foolishness and sleep. The effect of devotional service becomes manifest by complete elimination of these effects of passion and ignorance. THE DEVOTEE IS FIXED AT ONCE IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, AND HE MAKES FURTHER PROGRESS TO RISE TO THE POSITION OF VASUDEVA, OR THE STATE OF UNMIXED SATTVA, OR SUDDHA-SATTVA. ONLY IN THIS SUDDHA-SATTVA STATE CAN ONE ALWAYS SEE KRSNA EYE TO EYE BY DINT OF PURE AFFECTION FOR THE LORD.
A devotee is always in the mode of unalloyed goodness; therefore he harms no one. But the nondevotee, however educated he may be, is always harmful. A devotee is neither foolish nor passionate. The harmful, foolish and passionate cannot be devotees of the Lord, however they may advertise themselves as devotees by outward dress. A devotee is always qualified with all the good qualities of God. Quantitatively such qualifications may be different, but qualitatively both the Lord and His devotee are one and the same.
Note: HOW even BRAHMANA HAS TO TRANSCEND sattva guna to come to the platform of UNALLOYED goodness where he SEES Krsna and Karma is TERMINATED.
SB 1.2.20 T Divinity and Divine Service
evam prasanna-manaso
bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah
bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam
mukta-sangasya jayate
SYNONYMS
evam–thus; prasanna–enlivened; manasah–of the mind; bhagavat-bhakti–the devotional service of the Lord; yogatah–by contact of; bhagavat–regarding the Personality of Godhead; tattva–knowledge; vijnanam–scientific; mukta–liberated; sangasya–of the association; jayate–becomes effective.
Thus established in the mode of UNALLOYED GOODNESS, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains POSITIVE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IN THE STAGE OF LIBERATION FROM ALL MATERIAL ASSOCIATION.
PURPORT
In the Bhagavad-gita (7.3) it is said that out of many thousands of ordinary men, one fortunate man endeavors for perfection in life. Mostly men are conducted by the modes of passion and ignorance, and thus they are engaged always in lust, desire, hankerings, ignorance and sleep. Out of many such manlike animals, there is actually a man who knows the responsibility of human life and thus tries to make life perfect by following the prescribed duties. And out of many thousands of such persons who have thus attained success in human life, one may know scientifically about the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. In the same Bhagavad-gita (18.55) it is also said that scientific knowledge of Sri Krsna is understood only by the process of devotional service (bhakti-yoga).
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. THIS ATTAINMENT OF SUCCESS IS POSSIBLE WHEN ONE IS ABOVE THE MODES OF PASSION AND IGNORANCE, OR, IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN ONE IS ACTUALLY A BRAHMANA BY QUALIFICATION. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. THE DEVOTEE IS ALREADY A BRAHMANA BY ACTION. BUT THAT IS NOT THE END OF IT. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A pure Vaisnava is a liberated soul and is transcendental even to the position of a brahmana. In the material stage even a brahmana is also a conditioned soul because although in the brahminical stage the conception of Brahman or transcendence is realized, scientific knowledge of the Supreme Lord is lacking. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA. The science of the Personality of Godhead is the subject matter for study by the postgraduate students in the spiritual line. Foolish men, or men with a poor fund of knowledge, do not understand the Supreme Lord, and they interpret Krsna according to their respective whims. THE FACT IS, HOWEVER, THAT ONE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE SCIENCE OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD UNLESS ONE IS FREED FROM THE CONTAMINATION OF THE MATERIAL MODES, EVEN UP TO THE STAGE OF A BRAHMANA. WHEN A QUALIFIED BRAHMANA FACTUALLY BECOMES A VAISNAVA, IN THE ENLIVENED STATE OF LIBERATION HE CAN KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.
SB 1.2.21 T Divinity and Divine Service
bhidyate hrdaya-granthis
chidyante sarva-samsayah
ksiyante casya karmani
drsta evatmanisvare
SYNONYMS
bhidyate–pierced; hrdaya–heart; granthih–knots; chidyante–cut to pieces; sarva–all; samsayah–misgivings; ksiyante–terminated; ca–and; asya–his; karmani–chain of fruitive actions; drste–having seen; eva–certainly; atmani–unto the self; isvare–dominating.
TRANSLATION
Thus the knot in the heart is pierced, and all misgivings are cut to pieces. THE CHAIN OF FRUITIVE ACTIONS IS TERMINATED WHEN ONE SEES THE SELF AS MASTER.
PURPORT
ATTAINING SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD MEANS SEEING ONE’S OWN SELF SIMULTANEOUSLY. As far as the identity of the living being as spirit self is concerned, there are a number of speculations and misgivings. The materialist does not believe in the existence of the spirit self, and empiric philosophers believe in the impersonal feature of the whole spirit without individuality of the living beings. But the transcendentalists affirm that the soul and the Supersoul are two different identities, qualitatively one but quantitatively different. There are many other theories, but all these different speculations are at once cleared off as soon as Sri Krsna is realized in truth by the process of bhakti-yoga. Sri Krsna is like the sun, and the materialistic speculations about the Absolute Truth are like the darkest midnight. As soon as the Krsna sun is arisen within one’s heart, the darkness of materialistic speculations about the Absolute Truth and the living beings is at once cleared off. In the presence of the sun, the darkness cannot stand, and the relative truths that were hidden within the dense darkness of ignorance become clearly manifested by the mercy of Krsna, who is residing in everyone’s heart as the Supersoul.
In the Bhagavad-gita (10.11) the Lord says that in order to show special favor to His pure devotees, He personally eradicates the dense darkness of all misgivings by switching on the light of pure knowledge within the heart of a devotee. Therefore, because of the Personality of Godhead’s taking charge of illuminating the heart of His devotee, certainly a devotee, engaged in His service in transcendental love, cannot remain in darkness. He comes to know everything of the absolute and the relative truths. The devotee cannot remain in darkness, and because a devotee is enlightened by the Personality of Godhead, his knowledge is certainly perfect. This is not the case for those who speculate on the Absolute Truth by dint of their own limited power of approach. Perfect knowledge is called parampara, or deductive knowledge coming down from the authority to the submissive aural receiver who is bona fide by service and surrender. One cannot challenge the authority of the Supreme and know Him also at the same time. He reserves the right of not being exposed to such a challenging spirit of an insignificant spark of the whole, a spark subjected to the control of illusory energy. The devotees are submissive, and therefore the transcendental knowledge descends from the Personality of Godhead to Brahma and from Brahma to his sons and disciples in succession. This process is helped by the Supersoul within such devotees. That is the perfect way of learning transcendental knowledge.
This enlightenment perfectly enables the devotee to distinguish spirit from matter because the knot of spirit and matter is untied by the Lord. THIS KNOT IS CALLED AHANKARA, AND IT FALSELY OBLIGES A LIVING BEING TO BECOME IDENTIFIED WITH MATTER. AS SOON AS THIS KNOT IS LOOSENED, THEREFORE, ALL THE CLOUDS OF DOUBT ARE AT ONCE CLEARED OFF. ONE SEES HIS MASTER AND FULLY ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD, MAKING A FULL TERMINATION OF THE CHAIN OF FRUITIVE ACTION. IN MATERIAL EXISTENCE, A LIVING BEING CREATES HIS OWN CHAIN OF FRUITIVE WORK AND ENJOYS THE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS OF THOSE ACTIONS LIFE AFTER LIFE. BUT AS SOON AS HE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD, HE AT ONCE BECOMES FREE FROM THE CHAIN OF KARMA. HIS ACTIONS NO LONGER CREATE ANY REACTION.
Note: When YOU realize your SVARUPA(constitutional position dasya-servant sakhya-friendship etc) by SEEING Krsna in SUDDHA SATTVA platform THEN Karma is terminated AND cycle of transmigration stops. Otherwise, you take birth in this material world.
Bg 4.37 T Transcendental Knowledge
yathaidhamsi samiddho ‘gnir
bhasmasat kurute ‘rjuna
jnanagnih sarva-karmani
bhasmasat kurute tatha
SYNONYMS
yatha–just as; edhamsi–firewood; samiddhah–blazing; agnih–fire; bhasmasat–turns into ashes; kurute–so does; arjuna–O Arjuna; jnana-agnih–the fire of knowledge; sarva-karmani–all reactions to material activities; bhasmasat–to ashes; kurute–it so does; tatha–similarly.
TRANSLATION
As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.
PURPORT
PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF SELF AND SUPERSELF AND OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS COMPARED HEREIN TO FIRE. THIS FIRE NOT ONLY BURNS UP ALL REACTIONS TO IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, BUT ALSO ALL REACTIONS TO PIOUS ACTIVITIES, TURNING THEM TO ASHES. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. WHEN ONE IS IN COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE, ALL REACTIONS, BOTH A PRIORI AND A POSTERIORI, ARE CONSUMED. IN THE VEDAS IT IS STATED, UBHE UHAIVAISA ETE TARATY AMRTAH SADHV-ASADHUNI: “ONE OVERCOMES BOTH THE PIOUS AND IMPIOUS INTERACTIONS OF WORK.”
69-01-22. Letter: Vilasavigraha
In regard to your next question, SELF REALIZATION MEANS GOD REALIZATION, AND GOD REALIZATION MEANS SELF REALIZATION. JUST LIKE TO SEE THE SUN MEANS TO SEE ONESELF, AND TO SEE ONESELF MEANS TO SEE THE SUN. SELF REALIZATION DEPENDS COMPLETELY UPON GOD REALIZATION, OR ELSE IT IS NOT COMPLETE. ONE MUST KNOW HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH TO FULLY KNOW HIS POSITION.
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.
EVEN IF ONE IS BY QUALIFICATION A SUDRA, HE MUST TRY TO IMPROVE HIS POSITION AND BECOME A BRAHMANA.
SB 5.26.23 A Description of the Hellish Planets
The shameless husbands of lowborn sudra women live exactly like animals, and therefore they have no good behavior, cleanliness or regulated life. After death, such persons are thrown into the hell called Puyoda, where they are put into an ocean filled with pus, stool, urine, mucus, saliva and similar things. SUDRAS WHO COULD NOT IMPROVE THEMSELVES FALL INTO THAT OCEAN AND ARE FORCED TO EAT THOSE DISGUSTING THINGS.
PURPORT
Srila Narottama dasa Thakura has sung,
karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, kevala visera banda,
amrta baliya yeba khaya
nana yoni sada phire, kadarya bhaksana kare,
tara janma adah-pate yaya
He says that persons following the paths of karma-kanda and jnana-kanda (fruitive activities and speculative thinking) are missing the opportunities for human birth and gliding down into the cycle of birth and death. Thus there is always the chance that he may be put into the Puyoda Naraka, the hell named Puyoda, where one is forced to eat stool, urine, pus, mucus, saliva and other abominable things. It is significant that this verse is spoken especially about sudras. If one is born a sudra, he must continually return to the ocean of Puyoda to eat horrible things. THUS EVEN A BORN SUDRA IS EXPECTED TO BECOME A BRAHMANA; THAT IS THE MEANING OF HUMAN LIFE. EVERYONE SHOULD IMPROVE HIMSELF. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, four divisions of human society were created by Me.” EVEN IF ONE IS BY QUALIFICATION A SUDRA, HE MUST
TRY TO IMPROVE HIS POSITION AND BECOME A BRAHMANA. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO CHECK A PERSON, NO MATTER WHAT HIS PRESENT POSITION IS, FROM COMING TO THE PLATFORM OF A BRAHMANA OR A VAISNAVA. Actually, one must come to the platform of a Vaisnava. Then he automatically becomes a brahmana. This can be done only if the Krsna consciousness movement is spread, for we are trying to elevate everyone to the platform of Vaisnava. As Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (18.66), sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: “Abandon all other duties and simply surrender unto Me.” One must give up the occupational duties of a sudra, ksatriya or vaisya and adopt the occupational duties of a Vaisnava, which include the activities of a brahmana. Krsna explains this in Bhagavad-gita (9.32):
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye ‘pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te ‘pi yanti param gatim
“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as sudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination.” Human life is specifically meant for going back home, back to Godhead. THAT FACILITY SHOULD BE GIVEN TO EVERYONE, WHETHER ONE BE A SUDRA, A VAISYA, A WOMAN OR A KSATRIYA. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT. HOWEVER, IF ONE IS SATISFIED TO REMAIN A SUDRA, HE MUST SUFFER AS DESCRIBED IN THIS VERSE: TAD EVATIBIBHATSITAM ASNANTI.
72-06-15. Letter: Himavati
DON’T TRY TO DO ANYTHING ARTIFICIALLY. THAT IS SAHAJIYA, WHICH MEANS A CLASS OF MEN THAT TAKE EVERYTHING VERY CHEAP
Note: the WHOLE philosophy is SIMILTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE Sudra is a Vaisnava – yes BUT BY QUALIFICATION he STILL has to REACH PERFECTION to be QUALIFIED as Brahmana FIRST then TRANSCEND that to come to QUALIFIED Vaisnava status. Just because Srila Prabhupada says. “But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava” this does NOT mean that Sudra does not have to come to the QUALIFIED Brahmana platform. Otherwise, why does Srila Prabhupada say, BUT BECAUSE HE’S A SUDRA, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BRING HIM –IMMEDIATELY- TO THE PLATFORM OF BRAHMANA, OR VAISNAVA. He uses the emphasis IMMEDIATELY this means Srila Prabhupada does NOT want SHAJIYA cheap version of sudra Vaisnava . He wants the Sudra to QUALIFY as Brahmana ALSO.
770214r2.may
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. BUT BECAUSE HE’S A SUDRA, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BRING HIM IMMEDIATELY TO THE PLATFORM OF BRAHMANA, OR VAISNAVA. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava.
Note: BUT IF YOU BECOME SUCCESSFUL, THEN YOU GO DIRECTLY WHERE KṚṢṆA IS THERE. KṚṢṆA IS THERE IN SOME UNIVERSE.
750610MW
Śrutakīrti: …talking in the car on the way over, the other day you said that Govinda dāsī, she had asked you if in general that we would have to take birth in India before going back home and you said yes. So we were wondering (laughter) how that’s possible that we have to take birth in India. Because we see that they’re not very strict Vaiṣṇavas there. So what is it…
Prabhupāda: The land is there.
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Land is… Just like this land, Vaiṣṇava is there. This land is not meant for spiritual culture but still the Vaiṣṇavas are there. Similarly, in India, no, there are many Vaiṣṇavas there. The mass of people, they are all Vaiṣṇava.
Paramahaṁsa: So by joining this movement we come to the platform where we can take birth in India in a nice brāhmaṇa family?
Prabhupāda: NO, YOU CAN GO DIRECTLY ALSO, IF YOU WANT TO FINISH YOUR BUSINESS. ŚUCĪNĀṀ ŚRĪMATĀṀ GEHE [BG. 6.41]. THIS IS A CONSIDERATION, WHO, ONE WHO FAILS IN EXECUTING. BUT IF YOU BECOME SUCCESSFUL, THEN YOU GO DIRECTLY WHERE KṚṢṆA IS THERE. KṚṢṆA IS THERE IN SOME UNIVERSE. So those who are completely liberated, they go to that universe. Just like when Kṛṣṇa comes here, in each and every universe there is a Vṛndāvana. So in that Vṛndāvana one takes birth. Then goes to original Vṛndāvana. [break]
Paramahaṁsa: Those who are not able to maintain the Kṛṣṇa consciousness principle, then they may have to go to India next lifetime.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śrīmatam, śrīmatāṁ śucīnāṁ.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So śrīmatāṁ, you can get here. Śrīmatam means rich, rich family. Here you get many families, Ford family… But śrīmatāṁand śucīnāṁ. So if you are creating so many brāhmaṇas, so if this cult is permanent, then there will be many brāhmaṇa family here also. [break]
Note: In here the Cobbler is in SUPERIOR position then Brahmana because of his FAITH and REALIZATION.
RV 3 Knowledge of Krsna’ s Energies
In this regard, there is a story of Narada Muni, who was once asked by a brahmana: “Oh, you are going to meet the Lord? Will you please ask Him when I’m going to get my salvation?”
“All right,” Narada agreed. “I shall ask Him.”
As Narada proceeded, he met a cobbler who was sitting under a tree mending shoes, and the cobbler similarly asked Narada, “Oh, you are going to see God? Will you please inquire of Him when my salvation will come?”
WHEN NARADA MUNI WENT TO THE VAIKUNTHA PLANETS, HE FULFILLED THEIR REQUEST AND ASKED NARAYANA (GOD) ABOUT THE SALVATION OF THE BRAHMANA AND THE COBBLER, AND NARAYANA REPLIED, “AFTER LEAVING THIS BODY, THE COBBLER SHALL COME HERE TO ME.”
“WHAT ABOUT THE BRAHMANA?” NARADA ASKED.
“HE WILL HAVE TO REMAIN THERE FOR A NUMBER OF BIRTHS. I DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE IS COMING.”
Narada Muni was astonished, and he finally said, “I can’t understand the mystery of this.”
“That you will see,” Narayana said. “When they ask you what I am doing in My abode, tell them that I am threading the eye of a needle with an elephant.”
When Narada returned to earth and approached the brahmana, the brahmana said, “Oh, you have seen the Lord? What was He doing?”
“He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle,” Narada answered.
“I don’t believe such nonsense,” the brahmana replied. Narada could immediately understand that the man had no faith and that he was simply a reader of books.
Narada then left and went on to the cobbler, who asked him, “Oh, you have seen the Lord? Tell me, what was He doing?”
“He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle,” Narada replied.
The cobbler began to weep, “Oh, my Lord is so wonderful, He can do anything.”
“Do you really believe that the Lord can push an elephant through the hole of a needle?” Narada asked.
“Why not?” the cobbler said, “Of course I believe it.”
“How is that?”
“You can see that I am sitting under this banyan tree,” the cobbler answered, “and you can see that so many fruits are falling daily, and in each seed there is a banyan tree like this one. If, within a small seed there can be a big tree like this, is it difficult to accept that the Lord is pushing an elephant through the eye of a needle?”
So this is called faith. It is not a question of blindly believing. There is reason behind the belief. If Krsna can put a large tree within so many little seeds, is it so astounding that He is keeping all the planetary systems floating in space through His energy?
760627g2.nv Conversations
Prabhupada: SO ONE LEARNED BRAHMANA, HE SAID, “ALL RIGHT SIR, NAMASKAR YOUR KRSNA. I CANNOT BELIEVE ALL THESE THINGS.” AND THE COBBLER, HE BEGAN TO CRY, “AH, KRSNA IS SO GREAT, HE CAN DO ANYTHING.” SO HE, NARADA MUNI ASKED, HE SAW THE LEARNED BRAHMANA REFUSED TO ACCEPT, AND THIS COBBLER IS SO ABSORBED THAT HE’S CRYING, “AH, KRSNA CAN DO ANYTHING.” SO HE ASKED HIM, “DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?” “YES, WHY NOT?” “SO HOW DO YOU BELIEVE IT?” “NOW I’M SITTING UNDER THIS BANYAN TREE, AND SO MANY BANYAN FRUITS ARE FALLING DOWN, AND I CAN SEE THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF SEEDS WITHIN THE FIG, AND EACH SEED CONTAINS A BANYAN TREE. SO WHY CAN I NOT BELIEVE? IF WITHIN THIS SEED A BIG BANYAN TREE CAN BE KEPT, WHAT IS THE DIFFICULTY FOR KRSNA TO PULL THE ELEPHANT THROUGH THE HOLE OF A NEEDLE?” HE HAS GOT REASON. HE IS NOT BLINDLY BELIEVING. How the scientist who does not believe in God, he can explain that within the small seed there is a big banyan tree? Let them do that. By chemical composition make little seed. As I told, make little egg. They cannot do anything. Still they are so proud.
Dhrstadyumna: Yesterday we read, Srila Prabhupada, that these are the qualities of the demon, that arrogance and pride, and their philosophy is there is no God in control. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita.
Devotee (1): SRILA PRABHUPADA, IN THAT STORY, THE COBBLER ACTUALLY WAS MORE ADVANCED THAN THE BRAHMANA, AND YET IN BHAGAVAD-GITA KRSNA EXPLAINS THAT “ANYONE CAN APPROACH ME, EVEN THE STRI SUDRA DVIJA BANDHU,” THEY CAN ALL APPROACH THE SUPREME DESTINATION. THEN IN THE NEXT VERSE HE SAYS “HOW MUCH GREATER, THEN, ARE THE BRAHMANAS, THE RIGHTEOUS, THE DEVOTEES, THE SAINTLY KINGS.” I WAS WONDERING HOW ARE THEY GREATER?
Prabhupada: You do not understand it?
Devotee (1): I do not understand how they are greater than the lower person who surrenders.
Prabhupada: SUPPOSE YOU HAVE GOT YOUR SPIRITUAL MASTER AND YOU, IF SOMEBODY SAYS THAT YOU CAN COME INTO THE…, ANY ONE OF YOU CAN COME IN THIS CAR. SO SPIRITUAL MASTER GOES, YOU ALSO GO. DOES IT MEAN THAT SPIRITUAL MASTER IS NOT GREATER THAN YOU? DO YOU THINK LIKE THAT?
Devotee (1): No.
Prabhupada: THEN? IT IS THE SAME THING. SUPPOSE KIRTANANANDA MAHARAJA HAS BROUGHT THIS CAR, SO HE SAYS, “ALL OF YOU CAN COME.” SO I GO, YOU GO, DOES IT MEAN THAT YOU AND YOUR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS EQUAL? DO YOU THINK LIKE THAT? IT IS SAME THING. EVERYONE CAN GO TO GODHEAD, THERE IS NO DOUBT, BUT STILL THERE IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BRAHMANAS, KSATRIYAS, SUDRAS. SO FAR GOING INTO THE CAR, THE EQUAL RIGHT IS THERE, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOUR SPIRITUAL MASTER OR THE NEXT GROUP, THEY ARE NOT GREATER THAN YOU. DON’T THINK LIKE THAT. THE SAME CAR, KIRTANANANDA MAHARAJA IS DRIVING, I AM ALSO THERE, YOU ARE ALSO THERE. DOES IT MEAN THAT WE ARE ALL EQUAL? THERE MUST BE GRADATION. THE RIGHT IS GIVEN TO EVERYONE. It does not mean that immediately they become all one. It is Krsna’s mercy that He accepted everyone, “Come on.” But the distinction is there. We are inviting everyone to partake Krsna prasadam. That does not mean that immediately all of them have become of the equal rank. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He was so kind, but still there was distinction. When He was taking prasadam, personal associates, they were sitting with Him. Is it not? SO THIS IS CALLED MARYADA. MARYADA MEANS HONOR. That must… Varieties must be there. Otherwise we become Mayavadis–everything is equal, all one. This is Mayavada philosophy. No varieties. There must be variety. That is Vaisnava philosophy. And as soon as you make it varietyless, all equal, that is Mayavada. Just see even in this flower, this is also flower and this is also flower. Does it mean they are of the same rank? This is understanding. Together they look very beautiful, but if you take separate value, then it is valuable than this flower. That distinction must be there. If somebody says “I am accepting even the leaf in this garland,” then what to speak of rose? It is like that. Krsna says that. That does not mean leaf and rose have the same value. One is making a beautiful garland, “I am accepting everything.” Mixed together it looks very nice, but individually the leaf has value, the rose has value, the flower has value. Not that because they are put together they have equal value. This is Vaisnava philosophy.
Further references:
Mahesh Raja: Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
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“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
(by Mahesh Raja)
Answer by Mark:
Mahesh,
Those are all excellent quotes addressing the subject. I can see where you are coming from a little better now that you have gone to such great lengths to explain your angle of vision.
The grey area is the time frame between a change in guna and karma in a current lifetime. Anyone from the lower 3 varnas who is chanting japa, hearing daily, and following the rules and regs is already on the fast track and considered solidly under the guidance of the mode of goodness despite their mix of other modes. You need to consider that after such a lifetime of polishing, in their retirement years, they will be MORE or LESS strictly engaged in devotional practices only, if not directly assuming many brahminical practices then being direct assistants to them in a temple setting. Not to mention being supported by the community to be immersed in hearing and remembering on their death bed.
The next thing to consider is that in Dwaraka, Mathura, and Vrndavana devotional servants are occupying all varnas. Not all are descended eternal associates, many are raganuga sadhana bhaktas. This was the case for half of the 6 Goswamis! And many of Mahaprabhu’s most intimate associates were sudra (vaidyas and kaysasta/karana).
So, in conclusion, I judge heavily in favor of seeing strictly following Vaisnava sudras as little different than brahmanas, though I admit the distinction. Whereas materially, even in other Vaisnava lineages, the differences will be vast. I judge this way due to the heavy influence of Bhakti Devi’s sakti in the lives of strict Gaudiyas, as compared to the greater influence of jnana and karma in the others.
Thanks for the discussion.
Hare Krsna
The reality is ANTI RITVIK SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING BUNCH OF CROOKS DO NOT ACCEPT
SRILA PRABHUPADA:
730907SB.STO Lectures
So, these things cannot be understood by the materialistic person. Therefore, one has to practice vairagya, renunciation. That is pointed out here. Bhagavata upasanam upadeksyamana vairagyam vina upadisto ‘pi bhakti-yoga na samyag pratitisthati iti. Side by side we have to practice, voluntarily, to be detached from material activities. Then we can make progress in devotional service. Tad utpataya kaman mindati. This is our voluntary work. If we want to be detached… Because Krsna is so kind, IF YOU HAVE GOT EVEN A LITTLE PINCH OF ATTACHMENT FOR THIS MATERIAL WORLD, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
721125BG.HYD Lectures
So if I am not liberated, if, if I have got so many plans to execute in this material world, then I’ll have to accept another body. But if you have no more plan, no more plan, niskincana… That is called niskincana. Niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, niskincana. One has to be completely freedom, completely freedom about this material world. ONE SHOULD BE DISGUSTED. THEN THERE IS POSSIBILITY OF BEING TRANSFERRED TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD. SO LONG ONE HAS GOT A PINCH OF DESIRE THAT “IF I WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE BRAHMA, OR LIKE KING, LIKE JAWAHARLAL NEHRU,” THEN I’LL HAVE TO ACCEPT A BODY. This desire. Krsna is so liberal, so kind. Whatever we want–ye yatha mam prapadyante–Krsna will give you
661206BG.NY Lectures
Gatagatam kama-kama labhante. Kama-kamah means sense gratification. Sense gratification. But transcendentalists, they have understood that “This sense gratification process will not help me.” This is called Krsna consciousness. One must understand perfectly well that this process of sense gratification, variyagasan, that will not help me. He is very intelligent. I will have to search out something else, not this sense gratification. SO LONG I HAVE GOT A PINCH OF DESIRE FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION, I WILL HAVE TO TAKE THIS MATERIAL BODY.
750208BG.HAW Lectures
So last night we discussed about the demons’ thinking. Asa-pasa-satair baddhah. He does not know “So long I shall be aspiring more and more, I am getting entangled more and more within this material world. Because Krsna is so kind, he has given me freedom to enjoy this material world, but according to my work, I am becoming implicated. SO LONG I’LL HAVE A PINCH OF DESIRE FOR ENJOYING THIS MATERIAL WORLD, I’LL HAVE TO ACCEPT A TYPICAL BODY.” THIS IS THE LAW OF NATURE. When you’ll actually be free from all material desires, then it is called mukti, mukti, liberation. That is liberation. So that standard of mukti, mukti standard or mukti platform, is bhakti-yoga.
720625SB.LA Lectures
Upon this mind, intelligence and ego, one develops a gross body of five elements: earth, water, air, fire. This is the two kinds of body, a condition. And when he’s actually Krsna conscious, he’s transcendental to this gross and subtle body. He attains a spiritual body which is never to be finished, eternal, blissful life. So sometimes, when Krsna, He’s especially kind to a person who thinks that “By… I shall execute Krsna consciousness; at the same time, I shall enjoy this material life,” this is foolishness. This is foolishness. If you want Krsna, go to home, back to home, back to Godhead, then you have to finish your material desires. BECAUSE KRSNA IS SO KIND THAT EVEN IF YOU HAVE A PINCH OF MATERIAL DESIRE TO ENJOY IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD, HE WILL GIVE YOU A CHANCE, “ALL RIGHT, YOU DO IT.” THAT MEANS WE BECOME ENTANGLED. THEREFORE, THOSE WHO ARE EXECUTING KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, THEY SHOULD TRY TO BECOME FREE FROM ALL MATERIAL DESIRES. ANYABHILASITA-SUNYAM JNANA-KARMADY-ANAVRTAM.
720427SB.TOK Lectures
“Simply I may remain a faithful devotee of Your…” That’s all, without any reason, without any cause, causeless. This should be our vow. If we, taking to Krsna consciousness, if we want to make some material asset, then we are cutting our throat, suicidal. The only prayer should be how to remain a pure devotee. If we remain a pure devotee, there is chance. Anyabhilasita-sunyam. Because Krsna, He is so kind, at the same time so strict also. Strict. IF YOU HAVE GOT A PINCH OF MATERIAL DESIRE, YOU CANNOT GO TO VAIKUNTHA. YOU CANNOT GO. THEREFORE NISKINCANANAM. YOU HAVE TO BECOME COMPLETELY NISKINCANA, NOTHING WANTED OF THIS MATERIAL WORLD. THAT IS CALLED TAPASYA.
770214ro.may Conversations
Prabhupada: … THIS MATERIAL WORLD MEANS SO LONG WE’LL HAVE A PINCH OF MATERIAL DESIRE, WE’LL HAVE TO TAKE BIRTH. KRSNA WILL GIVE US FULL FACILITY TO SATISFY OUR SENSES IN VARIOUS WAYS. YE YATHA MAM PRAPADYANTE TAMS TATHAIVA BHAJAMY AHAM. FULL FACILITIES. “ENJOY.
Devotees will be interested in this as what happens if one dies in Vrindavan, Mayapur, Dwarka, Jagannatha Puri etc Dhams:
771025rc.vrn Conversations
Hari-sauri: We just got a telegram today from Bhagavata.
Prabhupada: Who is he?
Hari-sauri: He was an elderly Australian devotee, the man who was doing the architecture. You saw him in Bombay, that older man. He was about fifty-six.
Prabhupada: In Bombay?
Hari-sauri: You saw him in Bombay last year. He had just done some drawings for the development of Bhubaneshwar, and you asked him if he would like… Oh, Haridaspur. At that time he was working on some plans for Haridaspur, and you asked him if he would like to stay there. He’s… Bhagavata put that he had died of some brain virus.
Prabhupada: In Bhubaneshwar?
Hari-sauri: Yes. That is part of Jagannatha Puri dhama?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Hari-sauri: IS THAT A GUARANTEE FOR GOING HOME, IF SOMEONE LEAVES THEIR BODY IN THE DHAMA?
Prabhupada: AT LEAST, HE GETS HIGH STANDARD OF LIFE FOR MANY YEARS. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Find out in Bhagavad-gita.
Hari-sauri: (pause) Prapya punya-krtam lokan?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Hari-sauri:
usitva sasvatih samah
sucinam srimatam gehe
yoga-bhrasto ‘bhijayate
Prabhupada: Read the whole verse.
Hari-sauri: The English?
Prabhupada: Or Sanskrit.
Hari-sauri: That was text 41. “THE UNSUCCESSFUL YOGI, AFTER MANY, MANY YEARS OF ENJOYMENT ON THE PLANETS OF THE PIOUS LIVING ENTITIES, IS BORN INTO A FAMILY OF RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE OR INTO A FAMILY OF RICH ARISTOCRACY.” THEN THE NEXT VERSE,
ATHAVA YOGINAM EVA
KULE BHAVATI DHIMATAM
ETAD DHI DURLABHATARAM
LOKE JANMA YAD IDRSAM
“OR HE TAKES HIS BIRTH IN A FAMILY OF TRANSCENDENTALISTS, WHO ARE SURELY GREAT IN WISDOM. VERILY, SUCH A BIRTH IS RARE IN THIS WORLD.”
TATRA TAM BUDDHI-SAMYOGAM
LABHATE PAURVA-DEHIKAM
YATATE CA TATO BHUYAH
SAMSIDDHAU KURU-NANDANA
“ON TAKING SUCH A BIRTH, HE AGAIN REVIVES THE DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS OF HIS PREVIOUS LIFE, AND HE TRIES TO MAKE FURTHER PROGRESS IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE COMPLETE SUCCESS, O SON OF KURU.” (BREAK) …TELEGRAM CAME TODAY. It didn’t give the exact time, but it came from Bhubaneshwar.
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Note: the dogs, monkeys they AND TO SUFFER AS DOG OR MONKEY MEANS COUNTERACTING ALL PREVIOUS SINS. ONE PUNISHMENT FINISHED. THEN HE’S FULLY LIBERATED.
760907rc.vrn Conversations
Harikesa: The dogs and monkeys, they feel grateful?
Prabhupada: YES, WHEN THEY COME TO SENSE THEY FEEL GRATEFUL. AS DOGS THEY CANNOT. AS DOG OR MONKEY THEY CANNOT ENHANCE THEIR SINFUL ACTIVITIES. IT IS STOPPED. AND WHATEVER THEY DO, THAT IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. AND TO SUFFER AS DOG OR MONKEY MEANS COUNTERACTING ALL PREVIOUS SINS. ONE PUNISHMENT FINISHED. THEN HE’S FULLY LIBERATED.
Harikesa: I was always wondering that if somebody’s desire is to commit sinful activities…
Prabhupada: No, in Kali-yuga if you desire it is not sinful. And act…
Harikesa: If they desire to commit sinful activities and before they became monkeys, but then they were doing it then. So whilst they’re monkeys their desire must change. Or is it forced, that change forced upon them by the mercy of Krsna?
Prabhupada: But if desire changes, then where is punishment? If he’s repentant, then there is no punishment.
Harikesa: So before they go back to the spiritual world that desire must change.
Prabhupada: THIS IS FORCEFUL CHANGE. THAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF VRNDAVANA BHAJANA.
Harikesa: That is very good. (laughs)
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your text and conclusion defeat the title. in fact you do that with the first quote everyone likes use for that purpose. only brahmana can be devotee. This is spoken of the material VAD, Prabhupada twice says material. Two seconds later he says………………………………
.(I find it conspicuous everyone truncates this par,t at this place, when just a moment later the concept of brahmana only is refuted excellently by Prabhupada. Even saying it plainly……………
At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
AGAIN……………….
Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava.
THIS IS DVD and the latest(most up to date) instruction on the matter.
What you posted is inapplicable for our purposes in our movement. It still remains quite appropriate to the non-bhakti transcendentalist(four kinds of people surrender to Krsna))
Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.
Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?
Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.
(These new standards were to be applied across the board from 1974, when I came. That is why I say i joined a DVD movement. I say anyone after 1974 that was forced to follow brahmana standards though was NOT a brahmana was abused by these demon hearing this conversation first hand. I especially have a thing against Satsvarupa)
Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform…
Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.
Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is…
Prabhupada: That is… Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.
Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: …brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You’ll be ha…
Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then..
.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Hari-sauri: …unless one is…
Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: …inclined.
Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam… [Bg. 18.46]. He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.
(Adding Krsna changes things. Sudra is DEVOTEE EQUAL TO BRAHMANA!! as long as he follows sudra varna perfectly, as the brahmana would be expected to do also.)
Hari-sauri: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.
(Satsvarupa is also confused or motivated. So I have to wonder why you are here in this mind set now after so much time we have spent on this very subject in private? DVD was always the goal. Nothing changed so much as it was finally applied to Iskcon in 1974)
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krsna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”
(This “gradually bring him to that pure consciousness” also applies to the brahmana)
Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra…”
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava.
(simple, sudra is Vaisnava now. as far as I’m concerned all the quotes you site(or Mahesh) do not apply to a devotee in our DVD movement as of this statement in bold red. But really what is the change??? nothing!! Hasn’t the dish washer always been as good as the pujari in service to the temples?? If you say no….I feel sorry for that poor fund of knowledge. Nothing is actually different, only more formal for proper management of following. All service is still preaching, all participants in Iskcon are devotees no matter what is the service they do.)
Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?
Hari-sauri:
sve sve karmany abhiratah
samsiddhim labhate narah
sva-karma-niratah siddhim
yatha vindati tac chrnu
“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”
(I’m been saying forever BG is the essential ‘How To’ DVD book. I’m a DVD man from my first reading it)
Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can… As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
BkM(Note: the WHOLE philosophy is SIMILTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE Sudra is a Vaisnava – yes BUT BY QUALIFICATION he STILL has to REACH PERFECTION to be QUALIFIED as Brahmana FIRST then TRANSCEND that to come to QUALIFIED Vaisnava status. Just because Srila Prabhupada says. “But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaisnava” this does NOT mean that Sudra does not have to come to the QUALIFIED Brahmana platform. Otherwise, why does Srila Prabhupada say, BUT BECAUSE HE’S A SUDRA, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BRING HIM –IMMEDIATELY- TO THE PLATFORM OF BRAHMANA, OR VAISNAVA. He uses the emphasis IMMEDIATELY this means Srila Prabhupada does NOT want SHAJIYA cheap version of sudra Vaisnava . He wants the Sudra to QUALIFY as Brahmana ALSO.
I absolutely disagree with your conclusion here. you have twisted the full intent of the conversation, over division, instead embracing the unity we have being in service to Krsna together whether we are sudra or not, does not disqualified us from Vaisnava.
A pot washer is as must ‘DEVOTEE’ AS THE PUJARI. anything else is smarta and repugnant. It was repugnant in 1974 and is repugnant here and now. PLUS NOT SUPPORTED IN THIS CONVERSATION.
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.
Note: this means ISKCON’S bogus MISLEADERS CONDITIONED SOUL GBC VOTED GURUS can NOT GO back THEMSELVES:
6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.
Note: IS_CONS bogus ANTI RITVIK MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING CROOKS HAVE TO NOTE: there is NO VACANCY: Srila Prabhupada IS the CURRENT DIKSA GURU FOR AS LONG AS HIS BOOKS ARE ON THE PLANET HE IS OUR GURU: JANME JANME PRABHU SEI
Lectures : Initiations : Initiation of Rukmini Dasi — Montreal, August 15, 1968 : 680815IN.MON :
Prabhupāda: Cakhu-dān dilo yei. Cakhu-dān means one who has opened the eyes, that is spiritual master. Janme janme pitā sei. Janme janme means birth after birth, he is my father
750721mw.sf
Sudāmā: So there’s no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.
Prabhupāda: No. Cakhu-dān dilo jei… What is that, next one?
Sudāmā: Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.
Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.
Lectures : Initiations : Initiation of Rukmini Dasi — Montreal, August 15, 1968 : 680815IN.MON :
Prabhupāda: I think so. (laughs) Whatever we do here, it is for eternity because it is not on the material stages. It is all on the spiritual platform. There is a song by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, cakhu-dān dilo yei janme janme pitā sei: “One who has opened the eyes, he is, birth after birth, he is my father.”
My humble question to Shriman Raja Caturbahu D Bhakti Prabhu ;
What is/was the position of Guru Drona acaraya pertaining to the Varna – Ashram ?
Thank you, Prabhu.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
”What is/was the position of Guru Drona acaraya pertaining to the Varna — Ashram ?”
interesting, I have no idea. please enlighten me
There are five different stages of liberation, and here it is specified that the devotee who has always lived his lifetime here under the direction of the Supreme Lord, as stated, has evolved to the point where he can, after quitting this body, go back to Godhead and engage directly in the association of the Supreme Lord. Bg 9.28 : PURPORT :
One simply has to become as serious and sincere as Dhruva Mahārāja; then it is quite possible to attain Vaikuṇṭhaloka and go back home, back to Godhead, in one life. SB 4.12.43 : PURPORT
There are dozens of more similar, but that should be enough to make the point. Next read the following lecture very carefully. you will see the phrase “PERFECTED IN THE TRAINING”, which refers to vaidhi bhakti sadhana.
“So this is sanatana. Krsna is sanatana, and His dealing with His devotees, that is also sanatana. And these are possible not here, but in the sanatana-dhama. We cannot have sanatana dealings with Krsna within this material world. Therefore Krsna comes to canvass the conditioned souls that “For eternal happiness, for eternal dealings, you come to Me in My eternal place.” Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. Why not in this material world? No. The material world, the nature is it is not permanent. It is temporary. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. Janmady asya [SB 1.1.1]. Janmadi. Everything here in this material world has a date of birth, and anything which has a date of birth must be a date of death also. That is the nature of this material world. So here we can practice what is sanatana-dharma, but actually sanatana-dharma is executed in the spiritual world. So just like one is trained up to become apprentice in some business and when he’s trained up, then he’s given the post. So we get this information from the gosvamis, sanatana-gosvamis, that those who are devotees, those who are PERFECTED IN THE TRAINING of devotional service, they are first of all given birth in the universe where Krsna is present.” (72/11/29 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.25)
Next, this purport refers to sadhana siddha as well. The PERFECTION of sadhana.
Madhya 20.397 purport.
“There are two types of devotees–the sadhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Bhagavad-gita says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so ‘rjuna: “After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me.” After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth in the womb of a gopi on a planet where Krsna’s pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nilamani, which is commented upon by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Krsna’s pastimes are taking place. Krsna’s eternal associates go wherever Krsna manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Krsna appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Krsna and His other associates.”
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)
So, we can harmonize the apparent contradiction in the recent quotes from Mahesh by seeing how Going “Back to Godhead” can mean transfer to the pure spiritual world that is not found on earth, and it can also mean being transferred to the spiritually surcharged atmosphere created on earth when Krsna is personally engaged in his pastimes in Goloka Vrndavana here.
Which backs up my original point that was made in an email conversation that led Mahesh to write this essay and print it here at Prabhupadanugas.eu. in order to argue against me. My original point was that a Vaisnava sudra who follows the rules and regulations of sudra perfectly gains the perfection at death of being able to take birth in the womb of a gopi in some material universe where Krsna is appearing, just like Prabhupada said.
70-06-21. Letter: Tamala Krsna
Regarding your second question: what determines whether a devotee goes to a Vaikuntha planet or to Goloka Vrndavana?–Those devotees who are following viddhi marg are meant for going to Vaikuntha planets and those who are following raga marg are meant for going to Krsnaloka.
760906gc.vrn Conversations
Aksayananda: Such stage of Bhakti is very rare, Prabhupada. To be on such a high platform is very rare. To be fearless.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakti itself is rare. Bhakti is not cheap. Don’t think it is cheap commodity. There is a verse, I now forget. Krsna can give you liberation, but He hesitates to give bhakti.
Harikesa: Muktim dadati karhicit sma na bhakti-yogam.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mukti, He is prepared, “All right, take mukti.” But when there is bhakti, He has to consider twice. Bhakti means he becomes in the grip of bhakta. Vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau.
Caranaravindam: ARE WE DOING BHAKTI, SRILA PRABHUPADA?
Prabhupada: THAT IS VIDDHI-BHAKTI. And this is raga-bhakti, spontaneous. THROUGH VIDDHI-BHAKTI YOU HAVE TO COME TO THE STAGE OF RAGA-BHAKTI. WITHOUT VIDDHI-BHAKTI, YOU’LL NOT… BECAUSE YOU ARE CONDITIONED.
TEXT
SB 4.3.23 T Talks Between Lord Siva and Sati
SATTVAM VISUDDHAM VASUDEVA-SABDITAM
yad iyate tatra puman apavrtah
sattve ca tasmin bhagavan vasudevo
hy adhoksajo me namasa vidhiyate
SYNONYMS
SB 4.3.23 S Talks Between Lord Siva and Sati
sattvam–consciousness; visuddham–pure; vasudeva–Vasudeva; sabditam–known as; yat–because; iyate–is revealed; tatra–there; puman–the Supreme Person; apavrtah–without any covering; sattve–in consciousness; ca–and; tasmin–in that; bhagavan–the Supreme Personality of Godhead; vasudevah–Vasudeva; hi–because; adhoksajah–transcendental; me–by me; namasa–with obeisances; vidhiyate–worshiped.
TRANSLATION
I am always engaged in offering obeisances to Lord Vasudeva in pure Krsna consciousness. Krsna consciousness is always pure consciousness, in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead, known as Vasudeva, IS REVEALED WITHOUT ANY COVERING.
PURPORT
The living entity is constitutionally pure. Asango hy ayam purusah. In the Vedic literature it is said that the soul is always pure and uncontaminated by material attachment. The identification of the body with the soul is due to misunderstanding. As soon as one is fully Krsna conscious it is to be understood that one is in his pure, original constitutional position. This state of existence is called suddha-sattva, which means that it is transcendental to the material qualities. Since this suddha-sattva existence is under the direct action of the internal potency, in this state the activities of material consciousness stop. For example, when iron is put into a fire, it becomes warm, and when red-hot, although it is iron, it acts like fire. Similarly, when copper is surcharged with electricity, its action as copper stops; it acts as electricity. Bhagavad-gita (14.26) also confirms that anyone who engages in UNADULTERATED DEVOTIONAL SERVICE to the Lord is at once elevated to the position of pure Brahman:
mam ca yo ‘vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
THEREFORE SUDDHA-SATTVA, AS DESCRIBED IN THIS VERSE, IS THE TRANSCENDENTAL POSITION, WHICH IS TECHNICALLY CALLED VASUDEVA. VASUDEVA IS ALSO THE NAME OF THE PERSON FROM WHOM KRSNA APPEARS. This verse explains that the pure state is called vasudeva because in that state Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, IS REVEALED WITHOUT ANY COVERING. To execute unadulterated devotional service, therefore, one must follow the rules and regulations of devotional service WITHOUT DESIRE TO GAIN MATERIAL PROFIT BY FRUITIVE ACTIVITIES OR MENTAL SPECULATION.
In pure devotional service one simply serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a matter of duty, without reason and without being impeded by material conditions. THAT IS CALLED SUDDHA-SATTVA, OR VASUDEVA, BECAUSE IN THAT STAGE THE SUPREME PERSON, KRSNA, IS REVEALED IN THE HEART OF THE DEVOTEE. SRILA JIVA GOSVAMI HAS VERY NICELY DESCRIBED THIS VASUDEVA, OR SUDDHA-SATTVA, IN HIS BHAGAVAT-SANDARBHA. HE EXPLAINS THAT ASTOTTARA-SATA (108) IS ADDED TO THE NAME OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO INDICATE ONE WHO IS SITUATED IN SUDDHA-SATTVA, OR IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STATE OF VASUDEVA. The word vasudeva is also used for other purposes. For example, vasudeva also means one who is everywhere, or all-pervading. The sun is also called vasudeva-sabditam. The word vasudeva may be utilized for different purposes, but whatever purpose we adopt, Vasudeva means the all-pervading or localized Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Bhagavad-gita (7.19) it is also stated, vasudevah sarvam iti. Factual realization is to understand Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and surrender unto Him. VASUDEVA IS THE GROUND WHEREIN VASUDEVA, THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, IS REVEALED. WHEN ONE IS FREE FROM THE CONTAMINATION OF MATERIAL NATURE AND IS SITUATED IN PURE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, OR IN THE VASUDEVA STATE, VASUDEVA, THE SUPREME PERSON, IS REVEALED. This state is also called kaivalya, which means “pure consciousness.” Jnanam sattvikam kaivalyam. When one is situated in pure, transcendental knowledge, one is situated in kaivalya. Therefore vasudeva also means kaivalya, a word which is generally used by impersonalists. Impersonal kaivalya is not the last stage of realization, but in Krsna consciousness kaivalya, when one understands the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then one is successful. In that pure state, by hearing, chanting, remembering, etc., because of the development of knowledge of the science of Krsna, one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All these activities are under the guidance of the internal energy of the Supreme Lord.
The action of the internal potency is also described in this verse as apavrtah, free from any covering. Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead, His name, His form, His quality, His paraphernalia, etc., being transcendental, are beyond material nature, it is not possible to understand any one of them with the materialistic senses. When the senses are purified by the discharge of pure devotional service (hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate), the pure senses can see Krsna without covering. Now one may inquire that since factually the devotee has the same material existential body, how is it possible that the same materialistic eyes become purified by devotional service? The example, as stated by Lord Caitanya, is that devotional service cleanses the mirror of the mind. In a clean mirror one can see one’s face very distinctly. Similarly, simply by cleansing the mirror of the mind one can have a clear conception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita (8.8), abhyasa-yoga-yuktena. By executing one’s prescribed duties in devotional service, cetasa nanya-gamina, or simply by hearing about God and chanting about Him, if one’s mind is always engaged in chanting and hearing and is not allowed to go elsewhere, one can realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As confirmed by Lord Caitanya, BY THE BHAKTI-YOGA PROCESS, BEGINNING FROM HEARING AND CHANTING, ONE CAN CLEANSE THE HEART AND MIND, AND THUS ONE CAN CLEARLY SEE THE FACE OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.
Lord Siva said that since his heart was always filled with the conception of Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because of the Supreme Lord’s presence within his mind and heart, he was always offering obeisances unto that Supreme Godhead. In other words, Lord Siva is always in trance, samadhi. THIS SAMADHI IS NOT UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE DEVOTEE; IT IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF VASUDEVA, FOR THE ENTIRE INTERNAL ENERGY OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ACTS UNDER HIS ORDER. Of course, the material energy also acts by His order, but His direct will is specifically executed through the spiritual energy. Thus by His spiritual energy He reveals Himself. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.6), sambhavamy atma-mayaya. Atma-mayaya means “internal potency.” BY HIS SWEET WILL HE REVEALS HIMSELF BY HIS INTERNAL POTENCY, BEING SATISFIED BY THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE DEVOTEE. The devotee never commands, “My dear Lord, please come here so that I can see You.” It is not the position of the devotee to command the Supreme Personality of Godhead to come before him or to dance before him. There are many so-called devotees who command the Lord to come before them dancing. The Lord, however, is not subject to anyone’s command, but if He is satisfied by one’s pure devotional activities, He reveals Himself. Therefore a meaningful word in this verse is adhoksaja, for it indicates that the activities of our material senses will fail to realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by the attempt of one’s speculative mind, but if one desires he can subdue all the material activities of his senses, and the Lord, by manifesting His spiritual energy, can REVEAL HIMSELF TO THE PURE DEVOTEE. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead REVEALS HIMSELF TO THE PURE DEVOTEE, the devotee has no other duty than to offer Him respectful obeisances. The Absolute Truth reveals Himself to the devotee in His form. He is not formless. Vasudeva is not formless, for it is stated in this verse that as soon as the Lord REVEALS HIMSELF, the devotee offers his obeisances. Obeisances are offered to a person, not to anything impersonal. One should not accept the Mayavada interpretation that Vasudeva is impersonal. As stated in Bhagavad-gita, prapadyate, one surrenders. One surrenders to a person, not to impersonal nonduality. Whenever there is a question of surrendering or offering obeisances, there must be an object of surrender or obeisances.
721020ND.VRN Lectures
rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti
kabe hama bhujhaba se yugala-piriti
Narottama dasa Thakura, such an exalted acarya, he’s teaching us, “Don’t try to understand yugala-piriti, the love affairs between Radha and Krsna, concoctedly, by your own concoction.” No. You should first of all try to serve the Six Gosvamis, rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti, how they are directing. Just like this Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Srila Rupa Gosvami is not teaching in the beginning the loving affairs of Radha-Krsna. No. He’s training, first of all, the reader, the devotee, HOW TO become FIRST OF ALL pure devotee.
anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady-anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
FIRST OF ALL, HE’S TRYING TO BRING THE DEVOTEE TO THE STANDARD DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. VIDHI-MARGA. THEN GRADUALLY, WHEN HE BECOMES ACCUSTOMED, THEN RAGA-MARGA WILL BE REVEALED. RAGA-MARGA IS NOT ARTIFICIAL. It becomes, svayam eva sphuraty adhah. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau… Everything, devotional relationship with Krsna, you cannot establish artificially. EVERYONE HAS GOT A PARTICULAR RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IN HIS ORIGINAL CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THAT WILL BE REVEALED GRADUALLY AS YOU ADVANCE IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE IN THE PRESCRIBED RULES AND REGULATIONS AS THEY ARE DIRECTED IN THE SASTRAS AND BY SPIRITUAL MASTER. WHEN YOU ARE TRAINED UP PROPERLY, YOU COME TO THE PLATFORM OF RAGA-MARGA, THEN YOUR DEVOTIONAL SI… THAT IS CALLED SVARUPA-SIDDHI. SVARUPA-SIDDHI. SO SVARUPA-SIDDHI IS ATTAINED AT A CERTAIN STAGE. Just like svarupa-siddhi… The desire for sex life is there in every human being, but when the boy and the girl come to the mature stage, it become manifest. It is, is not learned artificially. SIMILARLY, THE RAGA-MARGA, SVARUPA-SIDDHI, BECOMES REVEALED OR MANIFEST. SRAVANADI-SUDDHA-CITTE KARAYE UDAYA. UDAYA. THIS VERY WORD, UDAYA, IS USED. JUST LIKE SUN. SUN BECOMES VISIBLE WHEN THE SUN RISES AUTOMATICALLY. YOU CANNOT FORCE THE SUN TO RISE AT DEAD OF NIGHT. THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. SUN WILL RISE. YOU JUST WAIT. When the time will be right, morning, six o’clock, you’ll find the sun.
Similarly, the devotional service, we have to execute with patience, with enthusiasm. Utsahat dhairyat niscayat tat-tat-karma-pravartanat. We must be enthusiastic that we… “I shall engage myself very nicely in Krsna consciousness movement.” That is first qualification, enthusiastic. Dullness will not help you. You must be very enthusiastic. My Guru Maharaja used to say, prana ache yara sei hetu pracara. A preacher can, a person can become a preacher if he has got life. A dead man cannot become a preacher. So you must be very enthusiastic that “I shall preach the glories of the Lord to my best capacity.”
750112SB.BOM Lectures
So adhok… We have to approach that Adhoksaja. There are different stages of knowledge: pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja, aprakrta. SO WE HAVE TO APPROACH THE APRAKRTA, TRANSCENDENTAL, ABOVE THE MATERIAL NATURE. ADHOKSAJA IS ALMOST NEARER THAN THE LOWER GRADE OF KNOWLEDGE, PRATYAKSA, PAROKSAPAROKSA. THEY ARE IN THE KANISTHA-ADHIKARA.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
So prakrta stage is pratyaksa knowledge, direct perception, and knowledge received from parampara. Pratyaksa, paroksa, then aparoksa, self-realization, then adhoksaja, aprakrta. So Krsna consciousness is aprakrta knowledge. It is the topmost platform of knowing Krsna, aprakrta knowledge. So, so long we are up to the ADHOKSAJA KNOWLEDGE, THAT IS REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES STRICTLY. And aprakrta knowledge is for the paramahamsa. There is… That is called raga-bhakta. IN THESE STAGES, PRATYAKSA, PAROKSA, THEY ARE CALLED VIDDHI-BHAKTI. BUT WITHOUT VIDDHI-BHAKTI, YOU CANNOT REACH TO THE PLATFORM OF RAGA-BHAKTI, ALTHOUGH THAT IS OUR AIM. RAGANUGA, RAGA-BHAKTI IS EXECUTED FOLLOWING THE FOOTPRINTS OF THE DEVOTEES IN VRNDAVANA. THAT IS CALLED RAGA-BHAKTI. KRSNA’S PERSONAL ASSOCIATES. NOT TO BECOME DIRECTLY KRSNA’S PERSONAL ASSOCIATE, BUT FOLLOWING THE FOOTPRINTS OF KRSNA’S ETERNAL ASSOCIATES, WE CAN COME TO THE STAGE OF RAGA-BHAKTI. THAT IS CALLED PARA-BHAKTI. THAT PARA-BHAKTI IS REQUIRED.
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
SO THIS KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS GRADUALLY DEVELOPING UP TO THE STAGE OF RAGA-BHAKTI OR PARA-BHAKTI. THEN LIFE IS SUCCESSFUL.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: there is a DIRECT LINK between the MADHYMA Adhikari’s DIKSA and RAGA-BHAKTI (loving mellows) “AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, AND BECOMES FIT TO ENJOY THE SPIRITUAL BLISS OF EXCHANGE OF LOVING MELLOWS WITH ME.”
THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS
There are two aspects in initiation:
1) Formality (Pancaratriki) – name giving ceremony etc
2) Diksa(Knowledge) – spiritual initiation received by Madhyama adhikari
As shown previously in my article, the Ritvik ***Representative*** was to allow for the function of FORMALITY. So a question may be raised, why FORMALITY?
The answer is very simple: the Diksa given to Madhyama adhikari is NOT a formality. Initiation offered to neophyte/Kanistha IS a Formality. THIS is the BIG difference.
Note: in this Srila Prabhupada makes a point of Initiation as a formality this is different from Madhyama Adhikaris receiving Diksa
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: WELL, INITIATION OR NO INITIATION, FIRST THING IS KNOWLEDGE. (BREAK) …KNOWLEDGE. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
In conformity with the establishment of the formality of a Ritvik System 9th July 1977, Srila Prabhupada’s signed directive to the society the Pancaratriki regulations were followed in this initiation. “THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS”
This is a general principle. However, A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as ‘guru’ and ‘acharya’ by strictly following the disciplic succession.
(Lecture 26th April, 1968. New York)
Whether one uses the terms OFFICIATING ACARYA OR RITVIK OR REPRESENTATIVE they mean the SAME ie to ACT ON BEHALF OF ACARYA. So this is ACT AS “guru” and “Acarya”. They ACTING as OFFICIATING ACARYA OR RITVIK REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA. They are NOT acarya but acting as in capacity to OFFICIATE on BEHALF of the ACARYA SRILA PRABHUPADA for THE PURPOSE OF 1ST AND 2ND INITIATIONS FORMALITY . This is VERY CLEAR. Srila Prabhupada has in all front cover of the Books:
Founder-Acarya His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The hypen means Srila Prabhupada IS the ACARYA of ISKCON not simply its Founder consequently, one who wants to accept the position of formality of initiating others can ONLY do so ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the ACARYA. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DIKSA GIVING POSITION IN ISKCON AS LONG AS IT EXISTS IS IRREPLACEABLE.
Srila Prabhupada’s introduction of Ritvik Initiations (PANCARATRIKI) is fully justified as the formalities may be changed ” CAN ALSO BE INITIATED ACCORDING TO CIRCUMSTANCES.”
SB 4.8.54 Purport:
Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, OR WHO PERSONALLY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO ACT IN THE ROLE OF ACARYA, UNNECESSARILY CRITICIZE THE ACTIVITIES OF THE ISKCON MOVEMENT IN COUNTRIES OUTSIDE OF INDIA. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. SRIMAD VIRARAGHAVA ACARYA, AN ACARYA IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF THE RAMANUJA-SAMPRADAYA, HAS REMARKED IN HIS COMMENTARY THAT CANDALAS, OR CONDITIONED SOULS WHO ARE BORN IN LOWER THAN SUDRA FAMILIES, CAN ALSO BE INITIATED ACCORDING TO CIRCUMSTANCES. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.
68-06-12. Letter: whom it may concern
In each center we have got hundreds of disciples and followers, and our initiated disciples are strictly following the restrictions as principle, as follows: (1) no illicit sex life, (2) no intoxication, including coffee, tea, and cigarettes, (3) no gambling, (4) no meat eating. We have got both Brahmacaris and Householders as disciples, and all of them are following the above mentioned principles. THE STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES ARE INITIATED ACCORDING TO AUTHORIZED PANCARATRIKI REGULATIONS. According to Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita, anyone, including so-called low born men, who may take shelter unto the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna or His devotees, is sanctified by initiation process.
kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye ‘nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti tasmai prabhavisnave namah
How such thing can be possible is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that by special all-pervading power of Visnu this is possible.
721027ND.VRN Lecture
So we are trying to follow Sanatana Gosvami. By diksa-vidhanena, by imitating persons any, from anywhere. It does not matter. Because in this age, Kali-yuga, the diksa-vidhana is performed according, according to Pancaratrika-vidhi. Not Vaidika-vidhi. Vaidika-vidhi is very strict. Unless one is bona fide son of a dvija, the initiation was not given. To the sudras, there was no initiation. A brahmana ksatriya, vaisya. So these are the Vedic process. SO IN THE KALI-YUGA, BECAUSE IT IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT EVERYONE IS A SUDRA, THEREFORE VAIDIKA-VIDHANA CANNOT BE APPLIED. VAIDIKA-VIDHANA REQUIRES THAT ONE MUST BE BORN BY A BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA. THEN HE’S ELIGIBLE FOR BEING INITIATED. BUT IN THE KALI-YUGA, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. THEREFORE THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED.
680724IN.MON Lecture
sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratriki vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate
This is the definition given by Srila Rupa Gosvami, that to become a devotee of the Lord, Krsna, one has to follow the principles of sruti and smrti, and pancaratriki-vidhi. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, there is no Vedic vidhi. Because Vedic vidhi is lost. Formerly, initiation was offered to a person who is actually born of a brahmana father. Otherwise… Or the higher caste, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, and the vaisyas, they were offered initiation, and the sudras were not offered. That was the Vedic system. But in this age the sastra says that kalau sudra sambhava. IN THIS AGE OF KALI PRACTICALLY THERE IS NO MORE ANY BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, OR VAISYA. MAYBE BY NAME, BUT IN QUALIFICATION THEY ARE NOT EXISTING. EVERYONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SUDRA. SO IN KALI-YUGA THE PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI IS ACCEPTED. The pancaratriki-vidhi is also Vedic vidhi, corollary, given by Narada Mahamuni. But it is accepted by the Vedic followers, pancaratriki-vidhi.
Pancaratriki-vidhi means if any one has a little inclination for spiritual development, he should be given chance. This initiation means to give chance. The Bhagavata says that kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah. These are the list of the candalas or less than the sudras. So Bhagavata gives open road for everyone. Even one is kirata… Kirata means… Generally they are called aborigines, or the very black aborigines living in the jungles, they are called kirata.
710329BG.BOM Lecture
Our Sanatana Gosvami gives direction in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one man can become a brahmana by the regular process of diksa. Diksa, this initiation, cannot be offered to a sudra. Diksa cannot be offered to a sudra. But in this age, Kali-yuga, it is the statement of the sastras that in the Kali-yuga most of the population are sudras. Kalau sudra sambhavah. How they can be initiated? This initiation is offered not according to the Vedic rules, because it is very difficult to find out a QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. DIKSA IS OFFERED TO A QUALIFIED BRAHMANA. THEREFORE THIS DIKSA IS OFFERED ACCORDING TO PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI. THAT IS RECOMMENDED IN THIS AGE. MY SPIRITUAL MASTER INAUGURATED THIS PANCARATRIKI-VIDHI, AND WE ARE FOLLOWING HIS FOOTSTEPS. Anyone who is inclined to devote his life for Krsna, he should be accepted as brahmana.
Note: A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD.** THIS IS DIKSA**.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
DIKSA-KALE bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee FULLY SURRENDERS UNTO THE SERVICE OF THE LORD, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
Antya 4.193 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders SERVICE to the lotus feet of the Lord.
Antya 4.194 Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri:
“‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, AT THAT TIME HE REACHES THE PLATFORM OF IMMORTALITY, AND BECOMES FIT TO ENJOY THE SPIRITUAL BLISS OF EXCHANGE OF LOVING MELLOWS WITH ME.’
NoI 5:
In order to intelligently apply the sixfold loving reciprocations mentioned in the previous verse, one must select proper persons with careful discrimination. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore advises that we should meet with the Vaisnavas in an appropriate way, according to their particular status. In this verse he tells us how to deal with three types of devotees–the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The kanistha-adhikari is a neophyte who has received the hari-nama initiation from the spiritual master and is trying to chant the holy name of Krsna. One should respect such a person within his mind as a kanistha-vaisnava. A MADHYAMA-ADHIKARI HAS RECEIVED SPIRITUAL INITIATION FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER AND HAS BEEN FULLY ENGAGED BY HIM IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE LORD. The madhyama-adhikari should be considered to be situated midway in devotional service. The uttama-adhikari, or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krsna consciousness. According to Srila Rupa Gosvami, the association and service of such a maha-bhagavata, or perfect Vaisnava, are most desirable.s to act for everyone’s welfare.
Note: Diksa is illustrated graphically here Vasudeva was on Suddha sattva platform this is why from him Krsna is transferred to Devaki
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb:
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT:
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
SB 8.5.29 P The Demigods Appeal to the Lord for Protection:
SATTVAM VISUDDHAM VASUDEVA-SABDITAM (Bhag. 4.3.23). In this material world, the three modes of material nature–goodness, passion and ignorance–prevail. Among these three, goodness is the platform of knowledge, and passion brings about a mixture of knowledge and ignorance, but the mode of ignorance is full of darkness. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead is beyond darkness and passion. He is on the platform where goodness or knowledge is not disturbed by passion and ignorance. This is called the vasudeva platform. It is on this platform of vasudeva that Vasudeva, or Krsna, can appear.
SB 5.3.20 P Rsabhadeva’ s Appearance in the Womb of Merudevi, the Wife of King Nabhi:
Lord Visnu descends in His suddha-sattva form. Suddha-sattva refers to the sattva-guna which is never contaminated. In this material world, even the mode of goodness (sattva-guna) is contaminated by tinges of rajo-guna and tamo-guna. WHEN SATTVA-GUNA IS NEVER CONTAMINATED BY RAJO-GUNA AND TAMO-GUNA, IT IS CALLED SUDDHA-SATTVA. SATTVAM VISUDDHAM VASUDEVA-SABDITAM (BHAG. 4.3.23). THAT IS THE PLATFORM OF VASUDEVA, WHEREBY THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, VASUDEVA, CAN BE EXPERIENCED.
Note: Karma is taken by UTTAMA-ADHAKARI. Only he can DELIVER by definition. uttama-adhikari Sei taraye samsara.
Madhya 22.65 The Process of Devotional Service:
uttama-adhikari–the topmost devotee; sei–he; taraye samsara–can deliver the whole world.
Srila Prabhupada delivers. He GIVES Diksa. Formalities of initiation are done by his Ritvik Representatives.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
Note: throughout the WHOLE process of Diksa from 1st and 2nd initiations FORMALITY conducted by Ritvik REPRESENTATIVE on Srila Prabhupada’s BEHALF to the stage of MADHYAMA adhikari there is ONE INITIATOR: Srila Prabhupada:
Srila Prabhupada is THAT Acarya who first Initiates us with the MAHA-MANTRA
Adi 1.34 The Spiritual Masters
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has composed this Sanskrit verse for the beginning of his book, and now he will explain it in detail. He offers his respectful obeisances to the six principles of the Absolute Truth. Gurun is plural in number because anyone who gives spiritual instructions based on the revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master. Although others give help in showing the way to beginners, THE GURU WHO FIRST INITIATES ONE WITH THE MAHA-MANTRA IS TO BE KNOWN AS THE INITIATOR, AND THE SAINTS WHO GIVE INSTRUCTIONS FOR PROGRESSIVE ADVANCEMENT IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS ARE CALLED INSTRUCTING SPIRITUAL MASTERS.
Srila Prabhupada is the ONE initiator Spiritual Master
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
Srila Prabhupada is THAT PURE devotee who GIVES Krsna
SB 7.9.42 P Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
Here the words priya janan anusevatam nah indicate that the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is very favorable to devotees who act according to the instructions of His own pure devotee. In other words, one must become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. If one wants to become the servant of the Lord directly, this is not as fruitful as engaging in the service of the Lord’s servant. This is the direction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who shows us the way to become gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah. One should not be proud of becoming directly the servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rather, one must seek a pure devotee, a servant of the Lord, and engage oneself in the service of such a servant. The more one becomes the servant of the servant, the more one becomes perfect in devotional service. This is also the injunction of Bhagavad-gita: evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. One can understand the science of the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by the parampara system. In this regard, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, tandera carana sevi bhakta-sane vasa: “Let me serve the lotus feet of the devotees of the Lord, and let me live with devotees.” Janame janame haya, ei abhilasa. Following Narottama dasa Thakura, one should aspire to be a servant of the Lord’s servant, life after life. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura also sings, tumi ta’ thakura, tomara kukura, baliya janaha more: “O my Lord, O Vaisnava, please consider me your dog.” One must become the dog of a Vaisnava, a pure devotee, for a pure devotee can deliver Krsna without difficulty. Krsna se tomara, krsna dite para. KRSNA IS THE PROPERTY OF HIS PURE DEVOTEE, AND IF WE TAKE SHELTER OF A PURE DEVOTEE, HE CAN DELIVER KRSNA VERY EASILY. Prahlada wants to engage in the service of a devotee, and therefore he prays to Krsna, “My dear Lord, kindly give me the shelter of Your very dear devotee so that I may engage in his service and You may then be pleased.” Mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika (Bhag. 11.19.21). The Lord says, “Engaging in the service of My devotee is better than trying to engage in My devotional service.
Srila Prabhupada is THE ONE INITIATING Spiritual Master:
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
From NOD 2.
Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārati, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārati, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts—namely, regulative and spontaneous.
Rūpa Gosvāmī defines the first part of devotional practice, or vaidhi-bhakti, as follows: “When there is no attachment or no spontaneous loving service to the Lord, and one is engaged in the service of the Lord simply out of obedience to the order of the spiritual master or in pursuance of the scriptures, such obligatory service is called vaidhi-bhakti.”
From these successive paragraphs in the NOD 2 purport, we see that a sudra following perfectly engages in raganuga sadhana, which is beyond viddhi bhakti marg. This spontaneous attachment is the first stage of raganuga bhakti on the path of raga bhakti. And this is what qualifies a sudra to enter into Krsna’s direct pastimes in his next lifetime to practice spontaneous bhakti in his presence.
Just ask the society girls of Dwaraka how this works.
NoD 15: Spontaneous Devotional Service
“Examples of spontaneous devotional service can be easily seen in Kṛṣṇa’s direct associates in Vṛndāvana. The spontaneous dealings of the residents of Vṛndāvana in relationship with Kṛṣṇa are called rāgātmikā. These beings don’t have to learn anything about devotional service; THEY ARE ALREADY PERFECT IN ALL REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES and have achieved the spontaneous loving service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For example, the cowherd boys who are playing with Kṛṣṇa do not have to learn by austerities or penances or yogic practice how to play with Him. THEY HAVE PASSED ALL TESTS OF REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES IN THEIR PREVIOUS LIVES, and as a result they are now elevated to the position of direct association with Kṛṣṇa as His dear friends. Their spontaneous attitude is called rāgātmikā-bhakti.
Note: Sudra does NOT mean if he simply offers flower everyday to Deity without fail and THAT IS SPONTANEOUS LOVE. It is NOT SO CHEAP. It is GOOD if he does that.
HOWEVER, Sudra WHO has attained Raganuga stage CAN SEE KRSNA. At the SAMADHI stage he can UNDERSTAND his SVARUPA(constitutional postion).
RAGANUGA stage they CAN SEE the Krsna. THERE IS NO MORE THEORETICAL IT IS A VERY VERY VERY HIGH STATE OF REALIZATION. If the Sudra HAS ACHIEVED THAT STAGE SPONTANEOUS BHAKTI THEN HE CAN FOLLOW IN HIS CONSTITUTIONAL(SVARUPA) POSITION THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA
AT THAT STAGE THE DEVOTEE CAN FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA. THIS IS CALLED RAGANUGA-BHAKTI.
BY UNINTERRUPTED AND UNCEASING ANUSMRTI ONE ENTERS THE STAGE OF SAMADHI, OR SPIRITUAL TRANCE. AFTER SMARANA-DASA OR SAMADHI HAS FULLY DEVELOPED, THE SOUL COMES TO UNDERSTAND HIS ORIGINAL CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. AT THAT TIME HE CAN PERFECTLY AND CLEARLY UNDERSTAND HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA. THAT IS CALLED SAMPATTI-DASA, THE PERFECTION OF LIFE.
NoI 8 T
tan-nama-rupa-caritadi-sukirtananu-
smrtyoh kramena rasana-manasi niyojya
tisthan vraje tad-anuragi jananugami
kalam nayed akhilam ity upadesa-saram
SYNONYMS
tat–of Lord Krsna; nama–the holy name; rupa–form; carita-adi–character, pastimes and so on; su-kirtana–in discussing or chanting nicely; anusmrtyoh–and in remembering; kramena–gradually; rasana–the tongue; manasi–and one’s mind; niyojya–engaging; tisthan–residing; vraje–in Vraja; tat–to Lord Krsna; anuragi–attached; jana–persons; anugami–following; kalam–time; nayet–should utilize; akhilam–full; iti–thus; upadesa–of advice or instruction; saram–the essence.
TRANSLATION
The essence of all advice is that one should utilize one’s full time–twenty-four hours a day–in nicely chanting and remembering the Lord’s divine name, transcendental form, qualities and eternal pastimes, thereby gradually engaging one’s tongue and mind. In this way one should reside in Vraja [Goloka Vrndavana dhama] and serve Krsna under the guidance of devotees. One should follow in the footsteps of the Lord’s beloved devotees, who are deeply attached to His devotional service.
PURPORT
Since the mind may be one’s enemy or one’s friend, one has to train the mind to become his friend. The Krsna consciousness movement is especially meant for training the mind to be always engaged in Krsna’s business. The mind contains hundreds and thousands of impressions, not only of this life but also of many, many lives of the past. These impressions sometimes come in contact with one another and produce contradictory pictures. In this way the mind’s function can become dangerous for a conditioned soul. Students of psychology are aware of the mind’s various psychological changes. In Bhagavad-gita (8.6) it is said:
yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya
sada tad-bhava-bhavitah
“Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.”
At the time of death, the mind and intelligence of a living entity create the subtle form of a certain type of body for the next life. If the mind suddenly thinks of something not very congenial, one has to take a corresponding birth in the next life. On the other hand, if one can think of Krsna at the time of death, he can be transferred to the spiritual world, Goloka Vrndavana. This process of transmigration is very subtle; therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami advises devotees to train their minds in order that they will be unable to remember anything other than Krsna. Similarly, the tongue should be trained to speak only of Krsna and to taste only krsna-prasada. Srila Rupa Gosvami further advises, tisthan vraje: one should live in Vrndavana or any part of Vrajabhumi. Vrajabhumi, or the land of Vrndavana, is supposed to be eighty-four krosas in area. One krosa equals two square miles. When one makes Vrndavana his residence, he should take shelter of an advanced devotee there. In this way one should always think of Krsna and His pastimes. This is further elucidated by Srila Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.294):
krsnam smaran janam casya
prestham nija-samihitam
tat-tat-katha-ratas casau
kuryad vasam vraje sada
“A devotee should always reside in the transcendental realm of Vraja and always engage in krsnam smaran janam casya prestham, the remembrance of Sri Krsna and His beloved associates. By following in the footsteps of such associates and by entering under their eternal guidance, one can acquire an intense desire to serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Again Srila Rupa Gosvami states in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295):
seva sadhaka-rupena
siddha-rupena catra hi
tad-bhava-lipsuna karya
vraja-lokanusaratah
“In the transcendental realm of Vraja [Vraja-dhama] one should serve the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, with a feeling similar to that of His associates, and one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Krsna and should follow in his footsteps. This method is applicable both in the stage of sadhana [spiritual practices executed while in the stage of bondage] and in the stage of sadhya [God realization], when one is a siddha-purusa, or a spiritually perfect soul.”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has commented as follows upon this verse: “One who has not yet developed interest in Krsna consciousness should give up all material motives and train his mind by following the progressive regulative principles, namely chanting and remembering Krsna and His name, form, quality, pastimes and so forth. In this way, after developing a taste for such things, one should try to live in Vrndavana and pass his time constantly remembering Krsna’s name, fame, pastimes and qualities under the direction and protection of an expert devotee. This is the sum and substance of all instruction regarding the cultivation of devotional service.
“In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing krsna-katha. This is called sravana-dasa, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Krsna and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varana-dasa. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of krsna-katha. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaranavastha, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive krsna-smarana. At first, remembrance of Krsna may be interrupted at intervals, but later remembrance proceeds uninterrupted. When remembrance is uninterrupted, it becomes concentrated and is called meditation. When meditation expands and becomes constant, it is called anusmrti. BY UNINTERRUPTED AND UNCEASING ANUSMRTI ONE ENTERS THE STAGE OF SAMADHI, OR SPIRITUAL TRANCE. AFTER SMARANA-DASA OR SAMADHI HAS FULLY DEVELOPED, THE SOUL COMES TO UNDERSTAND HIS ORIGINAL CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. AT THAT TIME HE CAN PERFECTLY AND CLEARLY UNDERSTAND HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA. THAT IS CALLED SAMPATTI-DASA, THE PERFECTION OF LIFE.
“Caitanya-caritamrta advises those who are neophytes to give up all kinds of motivated desires and simply engage in the regulative devotional service of the Lord according to the directions of scripture. In this way a neophyte can gradually develop attachment for Krsna’s name, fame, form, qualities and so forth. When one has developed such attachment, he can spontaneously serve the lotus feet of Krsna even without following the regulative principles. This stage is called raga-bhakti, or devotional service in spontaneous love. AT THAT STAGE THE DEVOTEE CAN FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA. THIS IS CALLED RAGANUGA-BHAKTI. RAGANUGA-BHAKTI, OR SPONTANEOUS DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CAN BE EXECUTED IN THE SANTA-RASA WHEN ONE ASPIRES TO BE LIKE KRSNA’S COWS OR THE STICK OR FLUTE IN THE HAND OF KRSNA, OR THE FLOWERS AROUND KRSNA’S NECK. IN THE DASYA-RASA ONE FOLLOWS IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF SERVANTS LIKE CITRAKA, PATRAKA OR RAKTAKA. IN THE FRIENDLY SAKHYA-RASA ONE CAN BECOME A FRIEND LIKE BALADEVA, SRIDAMA OR SUDAMA. IN THE VATSALYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY PARENTAL AFFECTION, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE NANDA MAHARAJA AND YASODA, AND IN THE MADHURYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY CONJUGAL LOVE, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE SRIMATI RADHARANI OR HER LADY FRIENDS SUCH AS LALITA AND HER SERVING MAIDS (MANJARIS) LIKE RUPA AND RATI. THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL INSTRUCTION IN THE MATTER OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE.”
760211SB.MAY Lectures
In the madhyama-adhikari he can SEE four things. What is that? Four things means, first of all the Supreme Lord, isvara, the controller, he can see. HE CAN SEE MEANS HE UNDERSTANDS, HE APPRECIATES, HE CAN CONCEIVE, “YES, THE SUPREME LORD IS THERE”. THERE IS NO MORE THEORETICAL. So isvara, and tad-adhinesu, and persons who have become devotee, he can understand, “Here is a devotee.” Isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu. Balisa means he knows imperson. They do not know what is God, what is to be done, they are called balisa. Just like children, arbhakah, balisa. And then dvisat, envious. Just like you have experienced so many rascals, as soon as they hear of God, immediately they become agitated. They are called dvisat, envious, demons. So four things, God, His devotees, and the innocent person, and the demonic atheist. He can see, madhyama-adhikari. And then he behaves with these four classes of men differently. What is that? Prema, for Krsna, the Supreme Lord, how to increase love. That is first business, prema. AND THOSE WHO ARE DEVOTEES, TO MAKE FRIENDSHIP WITH THEM MAITRI. Those who are higher than him, he should offer very respectful obeisances, those who are equal, treat them with nicely, and those who are lower then instruct them, balisesu. Those who are innocent, how to raise him in Krsna consciousness. This is preaching. And dvisatsu, upeksah, those who are atheist, don’t associate with them. Don’t associate with them. That is the madhyama-adhikari.
SB 4.21.42 P Instructions by Maharaja Prthu
How a devotee continuously SEES Krsna face to face WITHIN HIS HEART is described in the Brahma-samhita (5.38) as follows:
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
The devotee, by development of PURE LOVE FOR KRSNA, CONSTANTLY SEES the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Syamasundara, WITHIN HIS HEART. That is the perfectional stage of brahminical culture.
SB 5.1.27 P The Activities of Maharaja Priyavrata
By parama-bhakti-yoga, by elevating oneself to the highest platform of loving service, one can automatically be relieved from the bodily concept of life and see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face. As confirmed in Brahma-samhita:
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
An advanced devotee, who is known as a sat, or saint, CAN ALWAYS SEE WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, FACE TO FACE. Krsna, Syamasundara, expands Himself by His plenary portion, and thus a devotee CAN ALWAYS SEE HIM WITHIN HIS HEART.
SB 6.16.50 King Citraketu Meets the Supreme Lord
atah sri-krsna-namadi
na bhaved grahyam indriyaih
sevonmukhe hi jihvadau
svayam eva sphuraty adah
“No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form, quality and pastimes of Sri Krsna through his materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and pastimes of the Lord REVEALED TO HIM.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234) If one takes to spiritual life under the direction of Narada Muni or his representative and thus engages himself in the service of the Lord, he qualifies himself to see the Lord FACE TO FACE. The Brahma-samhita (5.38) states:
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
“I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is ALWAYS SEEN BY THE DEVOTEE whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is SEEN IN HIS ETERNAL FORM OF SYAMASUNDARA SITUATED WITHIN THE HEART OF THE DEVOTEE.” One must follow the instructions of the spiritual master. Thus one becomes qualified and later sees the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as evinced by Maharaja Citraketu.
SB 2.9.35 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
Therefore, although He is present in every atom, the Supreme Personality of Godhead may not be visible to the dry speculators; still the mystery is unfolded before the eyes of the pure devotees because their eyes are anointed with love of Godhead. And this love of Godhead can be attained only by the practice of transcendental loving service of the Lord, and nothing else. The vision of the devotees is not ordinary; it is purified by the process of devotional service. In other words, as the universal elements are both within and without, similarly the Lord’s name, form, quality, pastimes, entourage, etc., as they are described in the revealed scriptures or as performed in the Vaikunthalokas, far, far beyond the material cosmic manifestation, ARE FACTUALLY BEING TELEVISED IN THE HEART OF THE DEVOTEE. The man with a poor fund of knowledge cannot understand, although by material science one can see things far away by means of television. Factually, the spiritually developed person is able to have the TELEVISION OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD ALWAYS REFLECTED WITHIN HIS HEART. That is the mystery of knowledge of the Personality of Godhead.
The Lord can award anyone and everyone liberation (mukti) from the bondage of material existence, YET HE RARELY AWARDS THE PRIVILEGE OF LOVE OF GODHEAD, AS CONFIRMED BY NARADA (MUKTIM DADHATI KARHICIT SMA NA BHAKTI-YOGAM).
Caturbahu d.
You have the title ‘raja’ in front of your name which we all know means king, did Prabhupada give you that title or is it something that you just adopted. If you have given yourself that title then you must think that you are ‘kingly’, or a king of some sorts. You talk much of implementing dvd/vad in your comments on the different Krsna web sites, you even belittle and berate your godbrothers to get it together (I guess you think that doing so is acting like a ‘raja’ but in reality it is a real turn off, actually having the opposite affect). So for informations sake, in case someone might like to know, where is your dvd/vad project? Do you have one somewhere in the states or elswhere that devotees can come and see and maybe join, or emulate?
o.f.s.
Mahesh,
The quotes I offered prove beyond a doubt that when Prabhupada says a sudra gets perfection he means it.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam… [Bg. 18.46]. He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Hari-śauri: For Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he’ll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.”
You seem to imply that perfection for a sudra is only equal to “getting the position of devotee” which could simply mean being recognized as a bhaktabhasa materialistic neophyte prakrta bhakta.
But that is contradicted as follows.
Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He’ll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That’s good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life.
So he refers to all varnas equally in terms of the perfection he is alluding to.
And as far as your innuendo implying that a sudra cannot rise past being a neophyte and cannot truly become initiated with transcendental knowledge until he becomes qualified to do the duties of a brahmana, what can I say? You will yourself remain on the smarta platform until you stop with your current tack and accept Prabhupada’s own direct words.
the perfection of the practice of vaidhi bhakti is when the practice becomes raganuga, and that PERFECTION is called sadhana siddha and can happen to any devotee in one lifetime, just as the quotes said, after which they are qualified to meet Krsna face to face.
Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa and executes devotional service out of natural love. FOR EXAMPLE, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārati, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārati, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely.
****Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. ****
***So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts—namely, regulative and spontaneous.***
Rūpa Gosvāmī defines the first part of devotional practice, or vaidhi-bhakti, as follows: “When there is no attachment or no spontaneous loving service to the Lord, and one is engaged in the service of the Lord simply out of obedience to the order of the spiritual master or in pursuance of the scriptures, such obligatory service is called vaidhi-bhakti.”
Here we see that a sudra following perfectly can engage in raganuga sadhana, which is beyond viddhi bhakti marg. This spontaneous attachment is the first stage of raganuga bhakti on the path of raga bhakti. And this is what qualifies a sudra Vaisnava to enter into Krsna’s direct pastimes in his next lifetime to practice spontaneous bhakti in his presence.
PLAIN AS DAY. ANY SUDRA FOLLOWING THE RULES AND REGS CAN FALL INTO RAGANUGA SADHANA IN ONE LIFE. THIS IS PERFECTION.
Not only are all the varnas represented in Dwaraka, but even lower classes take shelter there too. You need to read this next purport again and keep in mind this purport speaks about BOTH those devotees who reach perfection in one lifetime, AND those who don’t! And either way, they either go directly to Gokula Vrndavana for training in person as a ragatmika, or they go to heaven first and then directly to Gokula for training.
“In Bhagavad-gītā (4.9) the Lord says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: after giving up the material body, the devotee of the Lord returns home, back to Godhead. This means that the devotee is first transferred to the particular universe where the Lord is at that time staying to exhibit His pastimes. There are innumerable universes, and the Lord is appearing in one of these universes at every moment. Therefore His pastimes are called nitya-līlā, eternal pastimes. The Lord’s appearance as a child in the house of Devakī takes place continuously in one universe after another. Therefore, the devotee is first transferred to that particular universe where the pastimes of the Lord are current. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā, even if a devotee does not complete the course of devotional service, he enjoys the happiness of the heavenly planets, where the most pious people dwell, and then takes birth in the house of a śuci or śrīmān, a pious brāhmaṇa or a wealthy vaiśya (śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo ’bhijāyate). Thus a pure devotee, even if unable to execute devotional service completely, is transferred to the upper planetary system, where pious people reside. From there, if his devotional service is complete, such a devotee is transferred to the place where the Lord’s pastimes are going on. Herein it is said, sambhavantu sura-striyaḥ. Sura-strī, the women of the heavenly planets, were thus ordered to appear in the Yadu dynasty in Vṛndāvana to enrich the pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa. These sura-strī, when further trained to live with Kṛṣṇa, would be transferred to the original Goloka Vṛndāvana. During Lord Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes within this world, the sura-strī were to appear in different ways in different families to give pleasure to the Lord, just so that they would be fully trained before going to the eternal Goloka Vṛndāvana. With the association of Lord Kṛṣṇa, either at Dvārakā-purī, Mathurā-purī or Vṛndāvana, they would certainly return home, back to Godhead.” SB 10.1.23 PURPORT
Here, Srila Prabhupada is using “Back to Godhead” to mean going to eternal Goloka, which matches his claim that one cannot go Back to Godhead in one lifetime. My original claim was that a perfect Sudra Vaisnava devotee goes to Gokula to meet Krsna in his next life, which matches the claims that Srila Prabhupada makes when he says we CAN go back to Godhead in one life. Because being in Krsna’s presence and being CONSCIOUS of who he is, is the same as being in Godhead wherever you are.
“The second-class devotee is firmly convinced and has strong faith, but he has no power to cite evidence from revealed scriptures. The third-class devotee is one whose faith is not very strong, but, by the gradual cultivation of devotional service, he will eventually be eligible for promotion to the second or first-class position. It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.2.45-47) that the first class devotee always sees the Supreme Lord as the soul of all living entities. Thus in seeing all living entities, he sees Kṛṣṇa and nothing but Kṛṣṇa. The second-class devotee places his full faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, makes friends with the pure devotees, favors innocent persons and avoids those who are atheistic or opposed to devotional service. The third-class devotee engages in devotional service according to the directions of the spiritual master, or engages out of family tradition, and worships the Deity of the Lord, but he is not cultivated in knowledge of devotional service, and he does not know a devotee from a nondevotee. Such a third-class devotee cannot actually be considered a pure devotee; HE IS ALMOST IN THE DEVOTIONAL LINE, BUT HIS POSITION IS NOT VERY SECURE.” 1968 Edition : TLC 11: Service to the Lord
Here it is plainly stated that the general rule for kanistha adhikari is that he is not even in the devotional line. He is almost in the devotional line, and his position is not very secure.
Does that sound like a Vaisnava Sudra who so perfectly followed the rules and regulative principles that he received perfection in his natural life?
We have the examples of Candrashekar das and Tapana Misra Das who Srila Prabhupada called Kanistha adhikari. This was mainly due to their inability to use scripture to defend Lord Caitanya from attack by Mayavadi sanyasis. So we can see that there is a fine line between kanistha and Madhyama. Madhyama is normally distinguished from Kanistha due to the gaining of firm faith and conviction that there is nothing to do but follow the order of the Lord or his Acarya. Whereas the Kanistha has some faith that following the Acarya’s orders is good but is more motivated out of material gratification to do so. It is implied that once a Kanistha reaches Madhyama he can no longer fall from devotional service, though his advancement still depends on much.
So could Srila Prabhupada possibly be claiming that a Sudra’s perfection is nothing more than dying with the chance to be born to a brahmana family in order to attain suddha sattva by rules and regulations?
Or will that Perfect Sudra die with nothing but the Acarya, the Lord, and the Lord’s holy names on his mind, surrounded by other well wishing devotees, and go on to ever increasing raganuga sadhana in the personal presence of the Lord in one of his many earthly abodes?
Mahesh,
As with all phases of devotional service, there is a transition to enter the phase, the beginning of the phase, the middle, and a transition to the next phase. The same holds true for raganuga SADHANA. There is in essence a neophyte stage to raganuga. That is what we are speaking of here when referring to a vaidhi bhakta of any varna who has firm faith (madhyama) and who achieves attachment (asakti) and thus begins spontaneous raganuga sadhana. They will gain a mental conception of their swarupa and meditate in that way on the eternal associate they most emulate and wish to follow in the footsteps of. It is like that in the beginning. After all it is considered their next birth is to be “trained” by literally following in the footsteps of an eternal nitya siddha in the direct presence of the Lord in his pastimes somewhere.
Hare Krsna
pamho agtACBSP,SRILA PRABHUPADA DEPARTURE FOR THE USA KI JAI
We are all sudra kalo sudra sambhavan and unless a sudra gets the own bullocks in square by keeping swearing it’s not possible to come to the platform of Krsna consciousness. Everyone got so many hidden enemies especially in this age where everyone is living with the enemy; once I was in SRI VRINDAVAN DHAM and there was a sudra with the brahminical thread in the bank of SRI YAMUNA river, i told him to take bath but he told me no I can’t because if I do that I lose all my pious activities,it’s said that whoever takes bath in the YAMUNA river burn all the sinful activities including the pious one,that’s why the SRI YAMUNA river purify the soul hundred times more then the ganges river.
The sudra wants to enjoy by accumulating pious activities he don’t want to lose it but at the moment when he goes to enjoy his shit he lose everything including the self control by starting to swear in search of killing someone but he never think to kill his own false ego,that’s the first class sudra but he want to be the master still like all the nasty guru hoaxers almost all of them got a heavy sudra background history and someone else less then that. I mean they come from pulinda yavana candala etc.. background history they don’t know that dr frog dr donkey etc.. were already existing and that the goal of life is to work hard to find out that ever existing blissful body created by SRI KRSNA
Sudras are working hard only for sense enjoyment and because our kalo sudra society is making by very big sudra things are going always wrong, all their so called knowledge got stolen by the illusion of their dirty sense enjoyment in the form of smelly helly shit that’s what is coming around by dealing with dirty things. If we want seriously to become devotees we need to not space out by destroying all the visibles and invisibles hidden enemies by reciting the SRI NARASIMHA DEVA KAVACHAM constantly as all the 33 millions of demigods are already doing through the SRI HARINAM SANKIRTAN this is the best yuga dharma made just for this darkest age where almost all the citizens are still uncivilized by eating stools because they are dealing with that therefore they are forced to do that but as soon as one come in contact with SRILA PRABHUPADA acharyavan puruso veda as soon as one can become free from all the rubbish within the sudra varna.
agtSP ys haribol
1) You can NOT be doing Raga nuga Bhakti in CONDITIONED state. In conditioned state YOU DO NOT SEE Krsna. Goodness, Passion Ignorance means you create Karma fruitive action means another body. Viddhi bhakti following REGULATIVE principles is for CONDITIONED state to get the soul OUT of the conditioned state.
2) Raga nuga Bhakti you KNOW your (svarupa) relationship with Krsna. You are NOT conditioned soul when you reach Raganuga Bhakti state.
3) Raga nuga bhakti you SEE Krsna and you SEE the associates IN YOUR HEART ALSO. Hence you CAN follow in footsteps of PARTICULAR devotee. Karma is BURNED UP. AT THAT STAGE THE DEVOTEE -CAN- FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA. THIS IS CALLED RAGANUGA-BHAKTI. RAGANUGA-BHAKTI,
Bg 4.37 T Transcendental Knowledge
yathaidhamsi samiddho ‘gnir
bhasmasat kurute ‘rjuna
jnanagnih sarva-karmani
bhasmasat kurute tatha
SYNONYMS
yatha–just as; edhamsi–firewood; samiddhah–blazing; agnih–fire; bhasmasat–turns into ashes; kurute–so does; arjuna–O Arjuna; jnana-agnih–the fire of knowledge; sarva-karmani–all reactions to material activities; bhasmasat–to ashes; kurute–it so does; tatha–similarly.
TRANSLATION
As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.
PURPORT
PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF SELF AND SUPERSELF AND OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS COMPARED HEREIN TO FIRE. THIS FIRE NOT ONLY BURNS UP ALL REACTIONS TO IMPIOUS ACTIVITIES, BUT ALSO ALL REACTIONS TO PIOUS ACTIVITIES, TURNING THEM TO ASHES. There are many stages of reaction: reaction in the making, reaction fructifying, reaction already achieved, and reaction a priori. BUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION OF THE LIVING ENTITY BURNS EVERYTHING TO ASHES. WHEN ONE IS IN COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE, ALL REACTIONS, BOTH A PRIORI AND A POSTERIORI, ARE CONSUMED. IN THE VEDAS IT IS STATED, UBHE UHAIVAISA ETE TARATY AMRTAH SADHV-ASADHUNI: “ONE OVERCOMES BOTH THE PIOUS AND IMPIOUS INTERACTIONS OF WORK.”
69-01-22. Letter: Vilasavigraha
In regard to your next question, SELF REALIZATION MEANS GOD REALIZATION, AND GOD REALIZATION MEANS SELF REALIZATION. JUST LIKE TO SEE THE SUN MEANS TO SEE ONESELF, AND TO SEE ONESELF MEANS TO SEE THE SUN. SELF REALIZATION DEPENDS COMPLETELY UPON GOD REALIZATION, OR ELSE IT IS NOT COMPLETE. ONE MUST KNOW HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH TO FULLY KNOW HIS POSITION.
70-06-21. Letter: Tamala Krsna
Regarding your second question: what determines whether a devotee goes to a Vaikuntha planet or to Goloka Vrndavana?–Those devotees who are following viddhi marg are meant for going to Vaikuntha planets and those who are following raga marg are meant for going to Krsnaloka.
760906gc.vrn Conversations
Aksayananda: Such stage of Bhakti is very rare, Prabhupada. To be on such a high platform is very rare. To be fearless.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakti itself is rare. Bhakti is not cheap. Don’t think it is cheap commodity. There is a verse, I now forget. Krsna can give you liberation, but He hesitates to give bhakti.
Harikesa: Muktim dadati karhicit sma na bhakti-yogam.
Prabhupada: Yes. Mukti, He is prepared, “All right, take mukti.” But when there is bhakti, He has to consider twice. Bhakti means he becomes in the grip of bhakta. Vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau.
Caranaravindam: ARE WE DOING BHAKTI, SRILA PRABHUPADA?
Prabhupada: THAT IS VIDDHI-BHAKTI. And this is raga-bhakti, spontaneous. THROUGH VIDDHI-BHAKTI YOU HAVE TO COME TO THE STAGE OF RAGA-BHAKTI. WITHOUT VIDDHI-BHAKTI, YOU’LL NOT… BECAUSE YOU ARE CONDITIONED.
NoI 8 T
BY UNINTERRUPTED AND UNCEASING ANUSMRTI ONE ENTERS THE STAGE OF SAMADHI, OR SPIRITUAL TRANCE. AFTER SMARANA-DASA OR SAMADHI HAS FULLY DEVELOPED, THE SOUL COMES TO UNDERSTAND HIS ORIGINAL CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. AT THAT TIME HE CAN PERFECTLY AND CLEARLY UNDERSTAND HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA. THAT IS CALLED SAMPATTI-DASA, THE PERFECTION OF LIFE.
“Caitanya-caritamrta advises those who are neophytes to give up all kinds of motivated desires and simply engage in the regulative devotional service of the Lord according to the directions of scripture. In this way a neophyte can gradually develop attachment for Krsna’s name, fame, form, qualities and so forth. When one has developed such attachment, he can spontaneously serve the lotus feet of Krsna even without following the regulative principles. This stage is called raga-bhakti, or devotional service in spontaneous love. AT THAT STAGE THE DEVOTEE CAN FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA. THIS IS CALLED RAGANUGA-BHAKTI. RAGANUGA-BHAKTI, OR SPONTANEOUS DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CAN BE EXECUTED IN THE SANTA-RASA WHEN ONE ASPIRES TO BE LIKE KRSNA’S COWS OR THE STICK OR FLUTE IN THE HAND OF KRSNA, OR THE FLOWERS AROUND KRSNA’S NECK. IN THE DASYA-RASA ONE FOLLOWS IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF SERVANTS LIKE CITRAKA, PATRAKA OR RAKTAKA. IN THE FRIENDLY SAKHYA-RASA ONE CAN BECOME A FRIEND LIKE BALADEVA, SRIDAMA OR SUDAMA. IN THE VATSALYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY PARENTAL AFFECTION, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE NANDA MAHARAJA AND YASODA, AND IN THE MADHURYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY CONJUGAL LOVE, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE SRIMATI RADHARANI OR HER LADY FRIENDS SUCH AS LALITA AND HER SERVING MAIDS (MANJARIS) LIKE RUPA AND RATI. THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL INSTRUCTION IN THE MATTER OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE.”
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Note: this will help the readers:
NoD 10 Techniques of Hearing and Remembering
In the Padma Purana there is a statement about remembering the activities of the Lord: “A person who is always engaged in meditation on the sweet pastimes and wonderful activities of the Lord surely becomes freed from all material contamination.”
In some of the Puranas the evidence is given that if someone is simply meditating on devotional activities, he has achieved the desired result and has seen face to face the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this connection, there is a story in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana that in the city of Pratisthanapura in South India there was once a brahmana who was not very well-to-do, but who was nevertheless satisfied in himself, thinking that it was because of his past misdeeds and by the desire of Krsna that he did not get sufficient money and opulence. So he was not at all sorry for his poor material position, and he used to live very peacefully. He was very openhearted, and sometimes he went to hear some lectures delivered by great realized souls. At one such meeting, while he was very faithfully hearing about Vaisnava activities, he was informed that these activities can be performed even by meditation. In other words, if a person is unable to actually perform Vaisnava activities physically, he can meditate upon the Vaisnava activities and thereby acquire all of the same results. Because the brahmana was not very well-to-do financially, he decided that he would simply meditate on grand, royal devotional activities, and he began this business thus:
Sometimes he would take his bath in the River Godavari. After taking his bath he would sit in a secluded place on the bank of the river, and by practicing the yoga exercises of pranayama, the usual breathing exercises, he would concentrate his mind. These breathing exercises are meant to mechanically fix the mind upon a particular subject. That is the result of the breathing exercises and also of the different sitting postures of yoga. Formerly, even quite ordinary persons used to know how to fix the mind upon the remembrance of the Lord, and so the brahmana was doing this. When he had fixed the form of the Lord in his mind, he began to imagine in his meditations that he was dressing the Lord very nicely in costly clothing, with ornaments, helmets and other paraphernalia. Then he offered his respectful obeisances by bowing down before the Lord. After finishing the dressing, he began to imagine that he was cleaning the temple very nicely. After
cleansing the temple, he imagined that he had many water jugs made of gold and silver, and he took all those jugs to the river and filled them with the holy water. Not only did he collect water from the Godavari, but he collected from the Ganges, Yamuna, Narmada and Kaveri. Generally a Vaisnava, while worshiping the Lord, collects water from all these rivers by mantra chanting. This brahmana, instead of chanting some mantra, imagined that he was physically securing water from all these rivers in golden and silver waterpots. Then he collected all kinds of paraphernalia for worship–flowers, fruits, incense and sandalwood pulp. He collected everything to place before the Deity. All these waters, flowers and scented articles were then very nicely offered to the Deities to Their satisfaction. Then he offered arati, and with the regulative principles he finished all these activities in the correct worshiping method.
He would daily execute similar performances as his routine work, and he continued to do so for many, many years. Then one day the brahmana imagined in his meditations that he had prepared some sweet rice with milk and sugar and offered the preparation to the Deity. However, he was not very satisfied with the offering because the sweet rice had been prepared recently and it was still very hot. (This preparation, sweet rice, should not be taken hot. The cooler the sweet rice, the better its taste.) So because the sweet rice had been prepared by the brahmana very recently, he wanted to touch it so that he could know whether it was fit for eating by the Lord. As soon as he touched the sweet rice pot with his finger, he immediately was burnt by the heat of the pot. In this way, his meditation broke. Now, when he looked at his finger, he saw that it was burnt, and he was wondering in astonishment how this could have happened. Because he was simply
meditating on touching the hot sweet rice, he never thought that his finger would actually become burnt.
While he was thinking like this, in Vaikuntha Lord Narayana, seated with the goddess of fortune, Laksmi, began to smile humorously. On seeing this smiling of the Lord, all the goddesses of fortune attending the Lord became very curious and asked Lord Narayana why He was smiling. The Lord, however, did not reply to their inquisitiveness, but instead immediately sent for the brahmana. An airplane sent from Vaikuntha immediately brought the brahmana into Lord Narayana’s presence. When the brahmana was thus present before the Lord and the goddesses of fortune, the Lord explained the whole story. The brahmana was then fortunate enough to get an eternal place in Vaikuntha in the association of the Lord and His Laksmis. This shows how the Lord is all-pervading, in spite of His being locally situated in His abode. Although the Lord was present in Vaikuntha, He was present also in the heart of the brahmana when he was meditating on the worshiping process.
Thus, we can understand that things offered by the devotees even in meditation are accepted by the Lord, and they help one achieve the desired result.
What we have to do is BE SINCERE in our devotional service. NO DUPLICITY. No Sahajiya business. Let us not pretend we are on Raganuga bhakti when we DO NOT SEE KRSNA IN OUR HEARTS. WE DO NOT SEE HIS ASSOCIATES EITHER IN THE -CONDITIONED STATE-. HOW do you follow a IN FOOTSTEPS of particular devotee in CONDITIONED STATE who YOU DO NOT SEE IN YOUR HEART?
NoI 8 T
This stage is called raga-bhakti, or devotional service in spontaneous love. AT THAT STAGE THE DEVOTEE CAN FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ONE OF THE ETERNAL ASSOCIATES OF KRSNA IN VRNDAVANA. THIS IS CALLED RAGANUGA-BHAKTI. RAGANUGA-BHAKTI, OR SPONTANEOUS DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, CAN BE EXECUTED IN THE SANTA-RASA WHEN ONE ASPIRES TO BE LIKE KRSNA’S COWS OR THE STICK OR FLUTE IN THE HAND OF KRSNA, OR THE FLOWERS AROUND KRSNA’S NECK. IN THE DASYA-RASA ONE FOLLOWS IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF SERVANTS LIKE CITRAKA, PATRAKA OR RAKTAKA. IN THE FRIENDLY SAKHYA-RASA ONE CAN BECOME A FRIEND LIKE BALADEVA, SRIDAMA OR SUDAMA. IN THE VATSALYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY PARENTAL AFFECTION, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE NANDA MAHARAJA AND YASODA, AND IN THE MADHURYA-RASA, CHARACTERIZED BY CONJUGAL LOVE, ONE CAN BECOME LIKE SRIMATI RADHARANI OR HER LADY FRIENDS SUCH AS LALITA AND HER SERVING MAIDS (MANJARIS) LIKE RUPA AND RATI. THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL INSTRUCTION IN THE MATTER OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE.”
I have been doing 16 rounds etc since 1985 that is 29 years. Read ALL Srila Prabhupada’s available books, heard lecture, Morning walk etc Tapes 711 MORE THEN 10 times EACH, Mp3s, CDs ALWAYS hearing AND I have got Deities of Sri Sri Radha Govinda PERSONALLY INSTALLED BY SRILA PRABHUPADA which I worship. This is STILL Viddhi Bhakti. IT IS -NOT- RAGANUGA BHAKTI.
72-06-15. Letter: Himavati
DON’T TRY TO DO ANYTHING ARTIFICIALLY. THAT IS SAHAJIYA, WHICH MEANS A CLASS OF MEN THAT TAKE EVERYTHING VERY CHEAP
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If we PRETEND that we are Raganuga that is SAHAJIYA . But that is NOT going to help US in our DEVOTIONAL service.
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SB 4.24.45-46 P Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Siva
After the scorching heat of the summer season, it is very pleasing to see dark clouds in the sky. As confirmed in Brahma-samhita: barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarangam. The Lord wears a peacock feather in His hair, and His bodily complexion is just like a blackish cloud. The word sundara, or snigdha, means “very pleasing.” Kandarpa-koti-kamaniya. Krsna’s beauty is so pleasing that not even millions upon millions of Cupids can compare to it. The Lord’s form as Visnu is decorated in all opulence; therefore Lord Siva is trying to see that most opulent form of Narayana, or Visnu. Generally the worship of the Lord begins with the worship of Narayana, or Visnu, whereas the worship of Lord Krsna and Radha is most confidential. Lord Narayana is worshipable by the pancaratrika-vidhi, or regulative principles, whereas Lord Krsna is worshipable by the bhagavata-vidhi. No one can worship the Lord in the bhagavata-vidhi without going through the regulations of the pancaratrika-vidhi. Actually, neophyte devotees worship the Lord according to the pancaratrika-vidhi, or the regulative principles enjoined in the Narada-pancaratra. Radha-Krsna cannot be approached by the neophyte devotees; therefore temple worship according to regulative principles is offered to Laksmi-Narayana. Although there may be a Radha-Krsna vigraha, or form, the worship of the neophyte devotees is acceptable as Laksmi-Narayana worship. Worship according to the pancaratrika-vidhi is called vidhi-marga, and worship according to the bhagavata-vidhi principles is called raga-marga. THE PRINCIPLES OF RAGA-MARGA ARE ESPECIALLY MEANT FOR DEVOTEES WHO ARE ELEVATED TO THE VRNDAVANA PLATFORM.
SB 4.24.45-46 P Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Siva
THE INHABITANTS OF VRNDAVANA–THE GOPIS, MOTHER YASODA, NANDA MAHARAJA, THE COWHERD BOYS, THE COWS AND EVERYONE ELSE–ARE ACTUALLY ON THE RAGA-MARGA OR BHAGAVATA-MARGA PLATFORM. They participate in five basic rasas–dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya and santa. But although these five rasas are found in the bhagavata-marga, the bhagavata-marga is especially meant for vatsalya and madhurya, or paternal and conjugal relationships. Yet there is the vipralambha-sakhya, the higher fraternal worship of the Lord especially enjoyed by the cowherd boys. Although there is friendship between Krsna and the cowherd boys, this friendship is different from the aisvarya friendship between Krsna and Arjuna. When Arjuna saw the visva-rupa, the gigantic universal form of the Lord, he was afraid for having treated Krsna as an ordinary friend; therefore he begged Krsna’s pardon. However, the cowherd boys who are friends of Krsna in Vrndavana sometimes ride on the shoulders of Krsna. They treat Krsna equally, just as they treat one another, and they are never afraid of Him, nor do they ever beg His pardon. Thus the raga-marga, or bhagavata-marga, friendship exists on a higher platform with Krsna, namely the platform of vipralambha friendship. Paternal friendship, paternal service and conjugal service are visible in the Vrndavana raga-marga relationships.
WITHOUT SERVING KRSNA ACCORDING TO THE VIDHI-MARGA REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF THE PANCARATRIKA-VIDHI, UNSCRUPULOUS PERSONS WANT TO JUMP IMMEDIATELY TO THE RAGA-MARGA PRINCIPLES. SUCH PERSONS ARE CALLED SAHAJIYA. There are also demons who enjoy depicting Krsna and His pastimes with the gopis, taking advantage of Krsna by their licentious character. These demons who print books and write lyrics on the raga-marga principles are surely on the way to hell. Unfortunately, they lead others down with them. Devotees in Krsna consciousness should be very careful to avoid such demons. One should strictly follow the vidhi-marga regulative principles in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, although the Lord is present in the temple as Radha-Krsna. Radha-Krsna includes Laksmi-Narayana; therefore when one worships the Lord according to the regulative principles, the Lord accepts the service in the role of Laksmi-Narayana. In The Nectar of Devotion full instructions are given about the vidhi-marga worship of Radha-Krsna, or Laksmi-Narayana. Although there are sixty-four kinds of offenses one can commit in vidhi-marga worship, in raga-marga worship there is no consideration of such offenses because the devotees on that platform are very much elevated, and there is no question of offense. But if we do not follow the regulative principles on the vidhi-marga platform and keep our eyes trained to spot offenses, we will not make progress.
Madhya 22.149 The Process of Devotional Service
“The ORIGINAL INHABITANTS OF VRNDAVANA are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called RAGATMIKA BHAKTI. When a devotee follows IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE DEVOTEES OF VRNDAVANA, his devotional service is called RAGANUGA BHAKTI.
Dear Readers,
I find the followings very INTERESTING ;
one fallen soul says:
9. August 2014 at 1:59 am
Caturbahu d.
You have the title ‘raja’ in front of your name which we all know means king, did Prabhupada give you that title or is it something that you just adopted. If you have given yourself that title then you must think that you are ‘kingly’, or a king of some sorts. You talk much of implementing dvd/vad in your comments on the different Krsna web sites, you even belittle and berate your godbrothers to get it together (I guess you think that doing so is acting like a ‘raja’ but in reality it is a real turn off, actually having the opposite affect). So for informations sake, in case someone might like to know, where is your dvd/vad project? Do you have one somewhere in the states or elswhere that devotees can come and see and maybe join, or emulate?
o.f.s.
Awaiting to hear further from Shriman Raja ji.
why would anyone (especially a person like me, that puts himself out there in public view constantly for possible scrutiny) self title?? This “Raja” came from Prabhupada in the same way Prabhupada got authorization from his guru. Still focusing on the messenger? Listen to the message first and foremost. The messenger is inconsequential. I will never be part of anything you devotees do. This I know.
As for ‘my’ godbrothers………you are not a godbrother/follower of Srila Prabhupada? do you accept the rtvik standards of initiation?
I’m a turn off to some and an inspiration to others. Isn’t that about average? I live in alachua, alone with no devotee friends. I’ve never had a devotee friend. Acquaintances? Yes. Know a person because of mutual service? Yes. But a FRIEND no. Yet in this land of a thousand devotees, I must know of half. Bk Mark was the closest person I have ever had as a devotee friend. He was here for awhile and the only person I have had association with for decades. I have recently just met with Radha Govinda Swami a few times. not sure what you are looking for here other than an opportunity to find fault.
So yes, I have faults! But I do not spiritually CHEAT, nor do I cheat in varna.
YOU ALL DO NOT HAVE WORRY, I WILL NOT BE IN YOUR PERSONAL LIVES. As Bk Mark is my witness, you could not take the heat and I do not need more aversion.
Wow ………. what a statement by Raja ji when he says ;
” So yes, I have faults! But I do not spiritually CHEAT, nor do I cheat in varna.”
I have asked many times in my postings to Shriman Raja ji that what type of Varna – Ashram he is in.
Giving no any specific answer to it, I surprisingly find from his writing explaining about himself as a ” Raja ” and a ” Messenger ” of carrying DVD as it appears so.
Further, I find both above said descriptions about him is totally conflicting and confusing as to what Raja’s intend and purpose is when it comes to deliver his message as a messenger.
And yet he goes on to write in his comments ;
” YOU ALL DO NOT HAVE WORRY, I WILL NOT BE IN YOUR PERSONAL LIVES. As Bk Mark is my witness, you could not take the heat and I do not need more aversion.”
I guess that that is why Raja is not able to take the heat himself and turn the table around saying ;
” I do not need more aversion.”
I really feel sad that there is no any constructive and productive discussion but simply destructive criticism which is very discouraging.
I know that I am writing as such in order to offer my humble suggestion to all the participants that all of us must contribute shared knowledge for the benefit of each other.
Hope it meets the Readers satisfactory.
YS…… Amar Puri.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Funny, I don’t ever remember Amar Puri giving “Mahesh RAJA” the third degree about calling himself RAJA.
Oh, the age of quarrel and hypocrisy.
And the age of short memories apparently as well. For Amar Puri was part of the conversation in the recent rupanuga thread, where RCB wrote the following.
Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti says:
19. June 2014 at 5:23 pm
For to many yrs I was very easily quieted by my misplaced sentiment toward devotees and my second class position considering others were brahmana.
You do not know me in person. I am as capable as I say I am. From that comes confidence. I never had this level of ‘confidence’ until my trip to India in 1997. I consider it a direct gift from Srila Prabhupada!! As he told me to not take shit any more, I have the paradigm right and am a ksatriya(same as he first said in 1976 when I was his guard). Add ‘Raja’ to your name, denoting varna.
You believe as you like, but this happened to me personally and I do not have to answer to ANYONE else on this matter. Guru has given sanction and after that I do not take the sentimentalist type of humility in response to the likes of resistance to DVD that is going on here.
TO WHICH AMAR REPLIED.
Amar Puri says:
19. June 2014 at 10:30 pm
Wow ……….. Raja Caturbahu das Bhakti ……. who considers and accepts himself to be the King as to what he writes as following in reply to my comments ;
( http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-26961)
AND AGAIN
Amar Puri says:
19. June 2014 at 11:46 pm
How true it is when RCD says in his comments ; ” I consider it a direct gift from Srila Prabhupada!! As he told me to not take shit any more, I have the paradigm right and am a ksatriya(same as he first said in 1976 when I was his guard). Add ‘Raja’ to your name, denoting varna. ”
DO NOT FORGET, RCB , you are in a different position, now. You may have a gift from Srila Prabhupada, as you said, but due to change in your position, you are not able to exercise and utilize your gift after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada because your position has changed.
That is why you have failed to implement DVD not only in your life but into the lives of others around you also who are not co-operating with you as you said.
An honest Ksatria Leader does not demand a cooperation from people but he gains ” Love and Trust ” of other people by rendering selflessly service for the benefit of the people who extends cooperation voluntarily to such a Leader.
(http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-26963)
AND AGAIN
Amar Puri says:
24. June 2014 at 5:54 pm
Yes indeed ; ” Kṣatriya means government, the governing division. ”
That is why I asked Shriman RCB to answer the questions in an other post ;
What type of Ksatriya ; a/ Kamsa type Ksatriya or b / Vasudeva type Ksatriya to which he never answered.
Why ?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-27083
AND AGAIN
Amar Puri says:
29. June 2014 at 1:19 am
And RCB continues to write further ; ( ” same as I said 10 yrs ago to you, is here today. As it has been from 74′, sinister is as sinister does!
IT APPEARS FROM RCB STATEMENT THAT HE HAS DONE NOTHING AS A KSATRIYA AS HE IMPOSE DVD IN HIS WRITING WHICH SHOWS HOW HYPOCRITE RCB IS HIMSELF. ISN’T IT ?
Besides we know Vasudeva would never preside over such a population/congregation that rejects DVD. first they must follow Vedic culture, then he would agree to be responsible. Same as Prabhupada writes in his books. First deserve, then desire.
IN HIS STATEMENT ABAOVE RCB CONFIRMS THAT HE KNOWS VASUDEVA WOULD NEVER PRESIDE OVER SUCH CONGREGATION THAT REJECTS DVD ? IS RCB ON VASUDEVA SIDE OR THE SIDE OF SINISTER WHO HAS DONE NOTHING TO ESTABLISH DVD THUS FAR SINCE 1974 ? IS THAT THE REASON RCB IS NOT REVEALING ANYTHING ABOUT WHO VASUDEVA IS ?
No Vasudeva would not be caught dead in a sinister cult devoid of DVD
IT LOOKS LIKE RCB HAD BEEN CAUGHT BEING A SINISTER HIMSELF WHO DOES NOT PRACTISE WHAT HE WANTS TO PREACH.
IS IT NOT RCB ?
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-27208
AND AGAIN
Amar Puri says:
29. June 2014 at 1:30 am
BH. MARK, you need to answer the questions I put forth to you.
For the last 10 years, your Ksatriya leader RCB has been asking your cooperation to practise Ksatriya varna with him but thus far you are simply cooperating in implementing what you are not practising like your friend RCB.
WHY are you not following what you and your friend want to implement ?
Don’t be HYPOCRITE Bh. Mark like your friend RCB.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-27209
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AND YOU WENT ON AND ON ACCUSING RCB OF BEING A SINISTER SO CALLED KSATRIYA AND THAT HE SHOULD PROVE HE IS A RAJA.
And finally Caturbahu spelled out your narrow minded expectations with his last post on that thread.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-27825
bhakta mark:Funny, I don’t ever remember Amar Puri giving “Mahesh RAJA” the third degree about calling himself RAJA.
Mahesh: I have the Surname RAJA on my BIRTH Certificate, College Certificates, Passport, etc. However – RAJA meaning Srila Prabhupada explains as follows:
741001SB.MAY Lectures
So here also, nanda, nanda-nandanaya… He (she) says, nanda-gopa-kumaraya. Kumara. Kumara means “who is not married.” So Krsna remained in Vrndavana up to sixteen years. Therefore He remained always kumara, Nanda-kumara, Nanda-nandana. Here it is explicitly said, Nanda-gopa. And who was Nanda? That is also explained. Nanda means that leader of the cowherds men or he was king, Nanda Maharaja. KING DOES NOT MEAN ALWAYS ONE HAS TO BECOME A KING OF VERY BIG KINGDOM. NO. ANYONE WHO POSSESSES… STILL IN INDIA, ANYONE WHO POSSESSES SOME LAND, HE IS CALLED KING, RAJA. HE IS CALLED RAJA, THE ZAMINDAR, ONE WHO POSSESSES SOME LAND, IN…, ESPECIALLY IN THE UP-COUNTRY. So Nanda Maharaja, because he possessed some land… He was well-to-do, rich man. Because… (aside:) Where is water? He possessed cows and grains. Formerly, a man… Still now, also… Actually that is rich, riches. Gavaya dhanavan, one who has got many cows, he is to be considered as rich man. Dhanyena dhanavan. One who has got large quantity of food grains, he is dhanavan. Nowadays one who has got a bunch of paper, he is considered… And the paper is nothing. As soon as the government is failure, then the thousand-dollar note and hundred-dollar notes, it will have no value.
Honestly Mahesh, I could care less why you use “Raja”. As you may have noticed I have never once questioned why you use that surname. I just pointed it out for obvious reasons described, ie: Amar’s apparent selective criticism (sometimes referred to as hypocrisy).
But now that you mention it, there is another example of Srila Prabhupada referring to current convention in India in terms of title and it is related to Varna. He explains how Vaidyas and even Kayastas/Karanas like Ramananda Raya are currently considered to be sudra. Though he also mentions that this is largely due to caste brahmanism and that Karanas used to be considered Ksatriya and Vaidyas were more brahminical than anything although being more a physician than a Kaviraja, (they dealt more with the physical bodies) and were thus likened to sudras.
Also note that while “Raja” can be used to denote any land owner according to current custom, not any land owner is qualified to be a ksatriya.
Of course anyone who Srila Prabhupada personally dubbed as ksatriya has the merit to claim the title Raja, whether he owns land or not. And possibly even king (maharaja) if he is the sovereign ruler of his domain of whatever size.
Hare Krsna
Bhakta Mark ; Not so Well said ;
” AND YOU WENT ON AND ON ACCUSING RCB OF BEING A SINISTER SO CALLED KSATRIYA AND THAT HE SHOULD PROVE HE IS A RAJA.
And finally Caturbahu spelled out your narrow minded expectations with his last post on that thread.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=3121#comment-27825.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
That is exactly what I meant when I said in my comments ( reproduced below ) to which Bhakta Mark had replied above for and on behalf of RCB ;
( ” I really feel sad that there is no any constructive and productive discussion but simply destructive criticism which is very discouraging.
I know that I am writing as such in order to offer my humble suggestion to all the participants that all of us must contribute shared knowledge for the benefit of each other. ” )
I sincerely do hope once again that it meets the Readers satisfactory.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
As far Mahesh Raja you have indeed answered well and explained very constructively in reply to the statement made by Bhakta Mark which reads ;
” Funny, I don’t ever remember Amar Puri giving “Mahesh RAJA” the third degree about calling himself RAJA.
Oh, the age of quarrel and hypocrisy. ”
Yes, it is an age of quarrel and hypocrisy as demonstrated in your remarks, Bhakta Mark, because you are also part of it as it seems.
Are you NOT ?
That is why I am writing again and again as such in order to offer my humble suggestion to all the participants that all of us must contribute shared knowledge for the benefit of each other as ” Mahesh Raja ” Prabhu does set an example in his writing of shared knowledge for the benefit of knowing and learning for the Readers who so ever visit this forum.
Hari BOL. AGTSP.
Bk Mark speaks on his behalf, I speak on my behalf. You speak like a person I will not longer address or respond to.
I affirm that I never speak on RCB’s behalf in the sense of being at his behest as an agent or proxy.
But I may speak on RCB’s behalf in the sense that I might advocate for a position he takes or to defend him if I think he was misunderstood or unjustly accused of something.
I also beg forgiveness if I have done so in a harsh or rude manner.
Hare Krsna