Jan 29, USA (SUN) — In reply to Purujit dasa.
“Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura dedicated a part of his masterpiece novel, Jaiva Dharma, to our topic in question. (Excerpts are available here for your perusal.) Were they wasting their time with useless discussion of “crows and tal-fruit logic”? Obviously not.
We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books. In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.
Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana:
“Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.”
Purujit finds the Quotations of Srila Prabhupada in my article “Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic”, “as heavily tainted with mayavada philosophy”, THEN he has the audacity to correct Srila Prabhupada.
Lets analyze:
Quote # 2 (lose excerpts): Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream, he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position…. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things…. So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream.
Purujit dasa writes:
“These explanations are heavily tainted with mayavada philosophy. Material world is not a dream. We dream neither our body nor surrounding material objects. Material energy is as real as spiritual energy but our perception of it is perverted by our desire to dominate and so we perceive it as the object of our enjoyment. Transformations of the material energy are temporary but the energy itself is eternal. Process of perception (seeing, hearing, etc.) or object of our perception do not disappear once we are liberated. Quality of our perception changes but we, the perceptor, the object of our perception and the perception itself remain. Perception, object of perception and perceptor exist eternally connected and separate simultaneously (acintya-bheda-abheda-tattva) and never disappear or become one. Liberated soul perceives material objects exactly the way we presently perceive them but, the quality of his perception is different. For more detailed explanations please refer to Sad-Sandarbha of Srila Jiva Goswami Prabhupada.“
Purujit states “These explanations are heavily tainted with mayavada philosophy. Material world is not a dream.” Where in the passage does Srila Prabhupada say that Material world IS a dream? Purujit is using a strawman argument here. Unable to defeat the actual example, he concocts an argument that he can defeat. Is Srila Prabhupada identifying that Material world IS a dream? No! All Srila Prabhupada does give is an example for us to understand based upon dreaming state: “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream”. Where does “just like a dream” indicate material world IS a dream? This is Purujit’s fallacy. He is unable/unwilling to grasp the subject. So, according to Purujit, Srila Prabhupada’s explanations “are heavily tainted with mayavada philosophy.”
Hear are two statements from Bhaktivedanta Vedabase to back-up that the letter “Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic” was in fact from Srila Prabhupada.
“2.3.1 “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”: In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society”
“80) THAT the GBC suggests that devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the “fall of the jiva” read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”
Note: here is that attachment letter.
Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic
“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don’t waste your time with this “Kaka taliya nyaya,” crows and tal-fruit logic.”
Further evidence:
68-12-02 Letter to Rayarama:
The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.
69-10-27 Letter to Upendra:
“Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.”
71-10-09 Letter to Upendra:
“So far your question, the soul is fundamentally pure but he has an aptitude to come to the impure state of material contamination. He is therefore called tatastha or marginal. He has got the liberty of staying within the pure state or becoming contaminated. That is his choice. This marginal point can be understood in this way; just like you are standing on the shore of the sea. So you can remain on the land or sometimes you can jump into the water to enjoy as you will see on the beaches. So many young boys are enjoying. But that is dangerous at the same time. One who does not know swimming expertly well he may become drowned. Similarly the soul from the spiritual platform sometimes jumps over the material ocean of nescience. The Vedic knowledge gives him specific instruction how to swim over but if he is a rascal, he does not take the instruction through the bonafide representative, the spiritual master, and he becomes drowned. That is the position. The Vedic instruction is so nice that the soul, when he jumps over this material ocean, the Vedic instruction teaches him how to swim and come back again to the shore. This swimming process, according to Vedic instruction, is called sacrifice, charity and penance. One who learns these techniques of swimming over the ocean of nescience, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. One who does not take to this swimming process, he becomes drowned. In the Bhagavad-gita this is stated iccha dyesa samutthena . . . svarge yanti parantapa which means deluded by desire to enjoy the material world and becoming envious of Krishna, one comes to this material world. (Bhagavad-gita, 7.27). So read our literature profusely and you will get sufficient knowledge.”
In conclusion, Purujit is unable/unwilling to understand (due to contamination of mis-interpretations from Gaudiya Math books). Anyone with A sincere heart who studies these quotations/letters from Srila Prabhupada as above – which are in corroboration to my article, will fully accept Srila Prabhupada’s stating: “Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.”
(by Mahesh Raja)
Download: PDF
Crow_And_Tal-Fruit_Logic.pdf
Quote: “because he falls down from brahmasayujya, he thinks that maybe his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with krsna.”
It is strange that the Fall-vadis always quote that one sentence to support their fall-down theory although Srila Prabhupada says hundreds of times the opposite, namely that the soul never falls from Vaikuntha. That’s a fact.
Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. (SB 7.1.34)
From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. (SB 7.1.34)
Gita 8.16 – But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.
Gita 4.9 – One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.
When a devotee is elevated to the spiritual kingdom he never falls down. Anyone who attains My abode never comes back to this conditioned life of material existence.” (SB 3.32.21)
After reaching that abode, he never comes back to this material world.
The mystic devotee goes to that transcendental abode and never comes back.” (SB 3.27.29)
Those who want to associate with Nārāyaṇa in the Vaikuṇṭhas, or with Kṛṣṇa in Kṛṣṇaloka, go to those abodes, wherefrom they never return. After reaching that abode, he never comes back to this material world. (SB 3.27.29)
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (SB 3.16.26 pp)
FALL means deviating from the constitutional duty of the JIVA – Atma who is eternal ever existing like the Paramatma. Otherwise, understanding the meaning of Jiva’s FALL for the complicated person becomes complex ISSUE unnecessarily.
So, one may ask why the Jiva Falls means deviates from the Eternal duty in the Spiritual platform in serving the Lord Shri Krishna ?
We understand from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI that on account of the Jiva’s FEEE WILL, there is dormant attitude for forgetting Our Lord Shri Krishna, the Creator and thus, creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. In a letter to Upendra Prabhu dated 71-10-09 ofHDG. Srila Prabhupada also states that the Soul from the Spiritual platform sometimes jumps over the material ocean of nescience. Free Will of the Jiva is there according to the Bhagavatgita 18.63.
We further read from the Bhagavatgita 7.27 that when the Jiva becomes deluded by the desire according to the FREE Will and becoming ENVIOUS OF KRSIHNA, the Jiva creates an atmosphere for enjoying independently and thus, comes to this material world in the DREAMING STATE as explained by our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada various writings also quoted in the article under discussion.
From the letter of Srila Prabhupada to Upendra Prabhu dated 71-10-09 quoted in the article ; ” …….The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Vishnu Form, whereas the Librated Souls in Vaikhuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. ”
The secret is to remain engaged in the service of the Lord always as advised and confirmed in the Bhagavatgita 9-34 and 18.65. That is the SECRET not to deviate from our duty in the service of the Lord and His bona fide Representative HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
Otherwise, there is always a chance of dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
OM TAT SAT.
Gauranga das has understood:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47341#comment-49113
730513mw.la Conversations
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and…, the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: There is return, that is VOLUNTARY. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”
69-10-27. Letter: Upendra
Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY, EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHA LOKA, HAS CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN. THEREFORE THE LIVING ENTITY IS CALLED MARGINAL ENERGY. BUT WHEN THE FALLDOWN HAS TAKEN PLACE FOR THE CONDITIONED SOUL IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN. THEREFORE TWO CLASSES ARE DESIGNATED: ETERNALLY LIBERATED AND ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. BUT FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE, A LIVING ENTITY BEING MARGINAL ENERGY, HE CAN’T BE ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. THE TIME IS SO UNLIMITED THAT THE CONDITIONED SOULS APPEAR TO BE ETERNALLY SO, BUT FROM THE PHILOSOPHICAL VIEW HE CANNOT BE ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. SINCE WE CANNOT TRACE OUT WHEN WE HAVE BECOME CONDITIONED, THERE IS NO USE OF ARGUING ON THIS POINT. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
730806BG.LON Lectures
And the human life… BECAUSE WE HAVE ALSO COME DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA SOME MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. Anadi karama-phale. ANADI means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Visnu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.
Hare Krsna
Note:
Even GM devotees know the difference between Srila Prabhupada’s and Sridhara Maharaja’s statements.
— A Paramadvaiti’s devotee said: one of the most main differences is „the fallen soul”
According to Prabhupada the soul can fall down and according to Sridahara Maharaja the soul can never fall down. —
We know that Srila Prabhupada is pure devotee and Sridhara Maharaja was a conditioned soul.
Hare Krsna
Yes, Marici Prabhu. Your last sentence says it all!
Srila Prabhupada strictly followed the instructions of his Guru Maharaja Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, but Sridhara Swami defied his implicit, clear instructions and created “unauthorized, conditioned soul Acharya System” which was duplicated by FISKCON! The statements made by Sridhara Swami therefore are worthless, ill considered and void of substance. Both the Gaudiya Math and FISKCON are based upon the defiance and the unauthorized, foolish actions of Sridhara Swami (which were also followed by Narayana Swami and FISKCON bogus 11 “guru club”) rendering them BOTH USELESS and a GREAT DISTURBANCE in the devotional community.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Prabhus, ” Fall Down or No Fall Down ” is understood clearly as follows ;
Deviate from the shelter of the Lotus Feet of the Lord and / or His Bona Fide Representative shelter of Instructions in rendering selfless service makes the Jiva Fall Down.
When the Jiva does not deviate from the Shelter of the Lotus Feet of the Lord and / or His Bona Fide Representative shelter of Instructions i.e. remain surrender to the service of the Lord or His Bona Fide Representative, the Jiva can never FALL DOWN.
It is the FREE WILL of the Jiva.
” …… yathecchasi tatha kuru….BG. 18.63 ”
” Surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in the best interest of the living entities ” says Srila Prabhupada.
Lord Shri Krishna says the same thing to Shri Arjuna in the BG.18.66 ; ” sarva-dharman parityajya ………….”.
What and where is the point of arguing on this issue of ” Fall Down or No Fall Down. ” ?
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Srimad Bhagavatam warns even those liberated souls within the spiritual world of the danger of falling down if they fail to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord:
BG 6.47p
Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down. The Bhagavatam confirms this as follows:
ya esam purusam saksad atma-prabhavam isvaram
na bhajanti avajananti sthanad bhrasta patanty adhah
“Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the Primeval Lord, who is the source of all living entities, will certainly fall down from his constitutional position.”
Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna
I would like to make my comment – 3. August 2017 at 6:16 pm – accurate, because Mahesh Prabhu explains Srila Prabhupada’s teaching perfectly ( MAHESH RAJA: Apparent Contradiction and Reconciliation).
But GM devotees (Sridharara Maharaja’s and Paramadvaiti Maharaja’s followers ) say other.
Srila Prabhupada : „There is possibility „
According to GM devotees there is no possibility, because Jaya and Vijaya were gate keepers of Vaikuntha , OUTSIDE.
Mahesh Prabhu writes: „So in conclusion, we can see APPLICATION OF the philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE. He falls but he does not fall at the same time. Srila Prabhupada has explained it thoroughly below HOW the living entity came down – perfectly reasonable example. Why look for contradiction when in fact, the THE WHOLE PHILOSOPHY IS SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.”
Every devotee should read and understand only Srila Prabhupada pure devotee’s words and leave the bogus GM „gurus”.
Hare Krsna
Guru, a spiritual master, must be situated on the transcendental platform, otherwise he is not guru, he is bogus, cheater “guru”, not a master, but a servant. He is a servant of so-called disciples, not their master. Guru is a liberated soul who always consults Krsna. Not indirectly but directly. He does nothing on his own, but what Krsna tells him he will do. If he does not have a direct contact with Krsna he is not a guru, and he is not to be worshiped as god. Here are some evidences:
Bali-mardana: In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Krsna tell you that this person should be in charge.
Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified.
Prabhupada: yes, because a devotee always consults Krsna and He gives order.
Interviewer: it’s a more direct communication.
Prabhupada: yes. And He gives order.
Ramesvara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Krsna. So if I have some…
Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Krsna as well.
Ramesvara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Krsna has told me.
Prabhupada: No, not necessarily, Krsna will tell directly. A devotee always consults Krsna and Krsna tells him, “do like this.” Not figuratively.
Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well?
Prabhupada: everything. Because a devotee does not do anything without consulting Krsna.
“The difference between Srila Prabhupada’s books and other so-called gurus writing is Srila Prabhupada’s instruction was coming directly from Krsna.”
“One is forbidden to accept the guru, or spiritual master, as an ordinary human being (guruṣu nara-matiḥ). When Rāmānanda Rāya spoke to Pradyumna Miśra, Pradyumna Miśra could understand that Rāmānanda Rāya was not an ordinary human being. A spiritually advanced person who is authorized to act as the spiritual master speaks as the Supreme Personality of Godhead dictates from within. Thus it is not he that is personally speaking. In other words, when a pure devotee or spiritual master speaks, what he says should be accepted as having been directly spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the paramparā system.” (Antya 5.71)
Even Christianity has proper understanding of guru:
“For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.”
“Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”
Srila Prabhupada, “Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru, ‘No you become acharya. You become authorized.’ I retire completely. But the training must be complete.”
“Difference is Srila Prabhupada speaks what Krsna speaks and so-called gurus have to jog the brain to give answers.”
“The [kali-yuga] guru is cheating. He is not himself a liberated soul yet he has taken the position of the guru and advertising that disciples should come to him and he will take them back to Godhead. But he is not even going back to Godhead himself. So the whole group of guru and his disciples all go to hell together.”
“First you must know what guru is, otherwise you will be cheated”
Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you very much for all of your answers. After reading all of your different opinions, we still have to abide by Srila Prabhupada’s final conclusion:
Srila Prabhupada: The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion is ultimate. Your conclusions are personal opinions only, which are not properly supported by Sadhu and Shastra.
Concerning going Home Back to Godhead we have to understand the living entities are NOT born in Vaikuntha nor do they emanate from there, nor are they Vishnu-Tattva expansion.
A mothers son might be born in a foreign country and later, when grown up, might return back home to his Fathers original place.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead has three primary energies, or potencies. The first is called antaraṅga-śakti, or the internal potency. The second is called taṭastha-śakti, or the marginal potency. The third is called bahiraṅga-śakti, or the external potency. The living entities constitute the marginal potency, and they are situated between the internal and external Potencies. (NOI, text 2)
So that energy is divided into three. Material energy, spiritual energy and marginal energy. We are marginal energy. We living entities, we belong to the marginal energy, taṭastha-śakti. Marginal means we can remain in the material energy or in the spiritual energy. Now, at the present moment, every one of us, we are under the control of the material energy. (Lecture London, July 23, 1973)
Falling from Vaikuntha:
The Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down. It is accepted by the majority of the members of the Vaisnava community that once having attained the spiritual world one cannot fall down. Numerous sastric texts (and commentaries) support this, such as: Bhagavad-gita 4.9, 8.15, 8.16, 13.24, 15.4, 15.6, 8.22, purport [of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada], and Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.2.31, 10.6.40, 3.16.12, purp., 3.25.29, purp., 7.1.34, purp.
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)
The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world. (Bhag. 3.16.27, purp.)
The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)
Misuse of free will in Vaikuntha:
Residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord and therefore will never misuse their free will.
“The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord.” (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…, do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that “I am meant for Krsna’s service,” and they are happy in Krsna’s service. (670218CC.SF)
Residents of the spiritual world are infallible and are not reborn:
The spiritual world… is especially meant for those who will never be reborn. (Bhag. 2.6.20, text)
Developing personal desires (for sense gratification) while in Vaikuntha.
In the Vaikuntha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. thay all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.14, text)
So the conclusion still remains the same: that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
Hare Krsna, Suchandra das,
I would like to ask you, please. Who is your Guru?
Hare Krsna
Marici das Prabhu,
The SECRET of staying in Vaikuntha is that the JIVA stays engaged ALWAYS in the DEVOTIONAL SERVICE to the Lord FREE FROM SENSE GRATIFICATION as per Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
In that way of obligation FREE FROM any material desire of rendering service to the Lord in Vaikuntha, the Jiva remains eternally Sat Chit Anand stage and never enter into the Material Realm.
That is why JIVA never falls from the Vaikuntha.
Now I share my experience of understanding on this realized knowledge from Srila Prabhupada that only the rascal JIVA such as myself disengage from my obligation in the service to the Lord in Vaikuntha. The result is I fall down from my Original obligation of serving the Lord to serving myself for the sense gratification with my insignificant FREE WILL as I desire.
Why I desire to disengage my obligation of serving the Lord, it is the ENVIOUS of Krsna, the Supreme Master. As some time, we experience that a Servant pretends to become Master to enjoy being the Master for sense gratification according to the FREE WILL.
Thus, Lord allows to fulfill the desire by covering up my Original Sat Chit Anand body to a Temporarily body out of 8,400,000 species of so called enjoyment as per my desire. Now the result is that I am in this cycle of repeated birth, death, old age and disease.
After becoming disgusted from the sense gratification in the various species of life, somehow with the little Sukiriti, an accumulated Spiritual Merit in my present human life, I have come in contact with the Spiritual Knowledge from HDG. Srila Prabhupada VANI.
Whatever little I have learned and realized from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI, I am preparing myself to get out of this temporarily OBLIGATIONS of sense enjoyment by following Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions and prepare myself to go home Back to Godhead in my Original Sat Chit Ananda Spiritual Body which is always in the Spiritual Realm of Vaikuntha because I am Spiritual being, part and parcel of the Lord.
That is why it is said that NO ONE falls from VAIKUNTHA because it is an Eternal abode where Jiva serves the Lord.
Thus, NO ONE FALLS FROM THE VAIKUNTHA.
That is my realization of understanding of the Jiva’s FALL or NO FALL from Vaikuntha as per Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. Hope it helps you.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna Marici Das
I don’t know why it is so important for you to know who my guru ist??? I also did NOT ask who your guru is. What has it to do with the discussion on the origin of the soul?
I have given 15 or so Quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s books concerning this issue.
Please kindly state if there is anything wrong with Srila Prabhupadas quotes? Or with those devotees who believe in Srila Prabhupadas written texts?
If Srila Prabhupada is wrong with HIS conclusion, namely: “The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) – than please kindly explain why this is so?
It seems you have a different understanding or realisation concerning this matter. Please kindly answer the 15 quotes and give me a different explanation for them (if you don’t agree), to help me understanding the truth.
Hare Krishna
Suchandra das: Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion is ultimate.
Mahesh: Correct! So—— agree to agree with Srila Prabhupada. Why disagree?
Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic
Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.
730806BG.LON Lectures
And the human life… BECAUSE WE HAVE ALSO COME DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA SOME MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. Anadi karama-phale. ANADI means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Visnu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.
69-10-27. Letter: Upendra
CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY, EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHA LOKA, HAS CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN. THEREFORE THE LIVING ENTITY IS CALLED MARGINAL ENERGY. BUT WHEN THE FALLDOWN HAS TAKEN PLACE FOR THE CONDITIONED SOUL IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN. THEREFORE TWO CLASSES ARE DESIGNATED: ETERNALLY LIBERATED AND ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. BUT FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE, A LIVING ENTITY BEING MARGINAL ENERGY, HE CAN’T BE ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. THE TIME IS SO UNLIMITED THAT THE CONDITIONED SOULS APPEAR TO BE ETERNALLY SO, BUT FROM THE PHILOSOPHICAL VIEW HE CANNOT BE ETERNALLY CONDITIONED. SINCE WE CANNOT TRACE OUT WHEN WE HAVE BECOME CONDITIONED, THERE IS NO USE OF ARGUING ON THIS POINT.
730513mw.la Conversations
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and…, the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: There is return, that is VOLUNTARY. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: YES. AS SOON AS WE TRY, “OH, THIS MATERIAL WORLD IS VERY NICE,” “YES,” KRSNA SAYS, “YES, YOU GO.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE MEANING OF FREE WILL? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”
720929SB.LA Lectures
SO OUR PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE ENTERED THIS MATERIAL WORLD OUT OF OUR OWN WILL. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA. NO ONE… KRSNA HAS NOT PUSHED US. YOU WANTED SOMETHING FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT, SO-CALLED ENJOYMENT. KRSNA HAS PROVIDED YOU. JUST LIKE YOU WANT TO ENTER INTO THE PRISON LIFE, THEREFORE GOVERNMENT CREATES A PRISON HOUSE. GOVERNMENT DOES NOT LIKE THAT THERE SHOULD BE PRISON HOUSE, AND GOVERNMENT HAS TO MAKE A DEPARTMENT, CRIMINAL DEPARTMENT, AND SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR NOTHING, FOR MAINTAINING THE PRISON HOUSE. GOVERNMENT HAS NO SUCH THING, PLAN. BUT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO ENTER INTO THE PRISON HOUSE, THEREFORE, BEFORE YOUR ENTERING, GOVERNMENT IS PREPARED, “HERE IS YOUR HOUSE. PLEASE COME.” SO THAT IS THE WAY OF MATERIAL CREATION. There was no need of this material creation. Some rascals questioned that “Why God has created this miserable world?” But you wanted, therefore God has given you. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham. Krsna says. Krsna is very kind. You wanted such a thing. The same example, the prison house. The prison house, government is not canvassing, “Please, you all gentlemen and ladies, come here.” No. You are going. You are going. Similarly, this material world is created for you because you wanted it. And here you cannot expect…, as you cannot expect in the prison house to live very comfortably… Because after all, it is prison house. There must be tribulation so that you may not come again. You cannot expect that prison house will be very comfortable and you live forever.
So upon these infliction of so many condition, so many miserable condition, still, we do not want to leave this place. Just see how much attachment we have got. Duhkhalayam asasvatam. This place has been described that it is a place for suffering. It is not the place for enjoying. But still, we are not inclined to leave it. Duhkhalayam asasvatam. You cannot make even compromise: “All right, it is a place of suffering, but we have got our radio and television. We shall live here.” No. You may have your radio, television, and if you make compromise, nature will not allow you. After some years you kick out: “Please get out of this apartment.” “No, I have got my television and this and…” “That’s all right. You get out.” Asasvatam. You cannot make even compromise, that “All right, it is miserable place. I will live here.” But you will not be allowed to live here. But these foolish rascals, they do not understand. Bhutva bhutva praliyate.
741220SB.BOM Lectures
THAT MEANS BECAUSE WE HAVE COME TO THIS MATERIAL NATURE… HOW WE HAVE COME TO MATERIAL NATURE? THAT IS EXPLAINED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, THAT ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. ICCHA-DVESA. THERE ARE TWO THINGS: HATRED AND DESIRE. SOMETHING WE DESIRE AND SOMETHING WE HATE, ICCHA-DVESA. TWO KINDS OF PROPENSITIES THERE ARE. SO WHEN WE WANT TO ENJOY THIS MATERIAL WORLD, THAT IS CALLED ICCHA, AND WHEN WE WANT TO DISOBEY GOD, THAT IS CALLED DVESA.
SO IT IS EXACTLY LIKE THAT. WE ARE IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD ON ACCOUNT OF THIS ICCHA AND DVESA. WE WANTED TO SATISFY THE SENSES, MATERIAL SENSES, INDEPENDENTLY. AND WE WANTED TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF THE SUPREME LORD. THESE ARE THE TWO CAUSES FOR WHICH WE ARE PUT INTO THIS MATERIAL WORLD..
741221SB.BOM Lectures
So bruhi karanayor asya sad-asac ca yad-atmakam. So the uttama-purusa, Purusottama, just like Krsna or Kapiladeva, They come within this material world, but they are not affected. But we are affected. We are, according to our desire, conditioned. We are affected by the different modes of material nature. It is described in the Vedic literature just like the fire and the spark. The fire is always blazing, but the sparks coming out of the fire, they sometime fall down. And this falling down is described that if the spark falls on some dry grass, then immediately the grass is also ignited into fire. That is sattva-guna. And rajo-guna means on the ground. It gradually, the ignition, the fire of the spark, becomes finished. And if the spark falls down on some water, then immediately it is extinguished. SIMILARLY, WHEN WE COME DOWN FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD ON ACCOUNT OF DESIRE, ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA, BY OUR ICCHA, KRSNA GIVES US TO FULFILL OUR DESIRES. SO AS WE CONTACT WITH THE DIFFERENT MODES OF MATERIAL NATURE, WE ARE SITUATED EITHER IN SATTVA-GUNA OR RAJO-GUNA OR TAMO-GUNA, AND OUR DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS ARE VISIBLE.
But the Purusottama, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is never become affected by the material nature.
Hare Krsna Suchandra Das,
the most important question is: who is your Guru? Because we want to help your understanding here.
We have to take a shelter at Srila Prabhupada’s Lotus feet. Because we can understand the things only through the actual Bona Fide spiritual master in parampara line . Therefore you should say with us: Srila Prabhupada is Our Bona Fide Hare Krsna Diksa Guru according to His Order of 9 July 1977.
You have given quotes only from Srila Prabhupada. Therefore if you accept only Srila Prabhupada, he will help you. Many „gurus” tell their followers that they follow Srila Prabhupada. That is not true. Srila Prabhupada is the actual link.
You wrote the following:
„Your conclusions are personal opinions only, which are not properly supported by Sadhu and Shastra.”
The prabhus’ answers were proper. They know Srila Prabhupada pure devotee’s teaching. The things are usually complex but Srila Prabupada’s explanations are clear . In connection with „the souls falling” the situation is the same.
My advice is: put away your quotes now and try to understand the things first in other way. Read attentively the prabhus’ comments and:
MAHESH RAJA: Apparent Contradiction and Reconciliation
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47310#more-47310
„the soul has got INDEPENDENCE to fall if HE CHOOSES TO FALL”
If you understand „SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE”, you can see Srila Prabhupada’s statements( quotations and your 15 ) are not controversial.
Mahesh Prabhu’s writings are perfect. His writtings are properly supported by Guru ,Sadhu and Shastra. Always. This is my personal opinion.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu,
Thanks for sharing of your understanding.
———————————————-
Dr. John Mize: Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?
Prabhupāda: No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down.
Dr. John Mize: So we’re among the 10%.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few falls down.
Dr. John Mize: Does Kṛṣṇa know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa? Yes, Kṛṣṇa may know because He is omniscient.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?
Prabhupāda: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency.
Dr. John Mize: The origin of that tendency is…?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. John Mize: From where does that tendency come?
Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). “Now you do whatever you like.”
Jayatīrtha: Because Kṛṣṇa is independent, therefore the part and parcels…
Prabhupāda: Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means… Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. So we living entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity.
Dr. John Mize: But Kṛṣṇa has no tendency to fall, whereas we do.
Prabhupāda: No. Because Kṛṣṇa is God. Therefore He is all good. Even He falls down, to our estimation, it is not fall down. (break) …cannot judge God. If we are devotee, in all circumstances we shall glorify God, “You are all-good.” That is devotee. You cannot criticize God, “Oh, You are doing such thing,” no.
(Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize — June 23, 1975, Los Angeles)
————————-
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna dear prabhus,
In Srimad Bhagavatam 3/29/35, the living entity is described as ‘purusa’…
“purusah purusam vrajet.(purusah= a person; purusam= the supreme Person).”
However, we generally see the living entity described as superior Prakrti, being enjoyed, (Bhagavad-gita Introduction page 8).
In his Bhaktivedanta Purport to SB 3/29/35, Srila Prabhupada explains: “…. the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living entity are qualitatively one; BOTH are defined as purusa. The quality of purusa exists both in the Supreme Godhead and in the living entity. Purusa means enjoyer, and the spirit of enjoyment is present both in the living entity and the Supreme Lord. The difference is that the quantity of enjoyment is not equal….. when the living entity wants to enjoy by imitating the Supreme Personality of Godhead, that is called Maya, and it puts him in the material atmosphere.” (my emphasis)
Prabhupada also uses the term ‘imitating’, so from my conditioned soul understanding, I would have to see or experience something, before I could ever conceive of imitating it. Would that also be needed for a soul in the IMPERSONAL Brahma-sayujya!
So as part & parcel of Krsna, the living entity eternally has the minute enjoying propensity of purusa, therefore Srila Prabhupada states in the 1972 conversation,
….”We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna…..Even with Krsna the desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently……we cannot say, therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila or sport.”
In the same conversation, Prabhupada warned us against the ‘kaka taliya nyaya’….”So, whether you have come from brahma-sayujya, or with Krsna in His Lila,at the moment you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krsna Consciousness and go there. Never mind what is your origin.”
Yfs,
Balaram das.
Suchandra das provided the quotes:
. a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)
The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world. (Bhag. 3.16.27, purp.)
Note: What Suchandra das fails to grasp is that the living entity has INDEPENDENCE:
Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize — June 23, 1975, Los Angeles
Prabhupāda: Tendency means the independence. SO EVERYONE CAN KNOW THAT INDEPENDENCE MEANS ONE CAN USE IT PROPERLY, ONE CAN MISUSE IT. THAT IS INDEPENDENCE. IF YOU MAKE IT ONE WAY ONLY, THAT YOU CANNOT BECOME FALL DOWN, THAT IS NOT INDEPENDENCE. THAT IS FORCE. THEREFORE KṚṢṆA SAYS, YATHECCHASI TATHĀ KURU (BG 18.63). “NOW YOU DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE.”
670218CC.SF Lectures:
Prabhupada: Yes, they CAN misuse it also. THAT POWER IS THERE. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: NO! THERE IS POSSIBILITY, BUT HE DOES NOT COME. JUST LIKE AFTER PUTTING YOUR HAND IN THE FIRE, YOU NEVER PUT IT AGAIN IF YOU ARE REALLY INTELLIGENT. SO THOSE WHO ARE GOING BACK TO GODHEAD, THEY BECOME INTELLIGENT. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. SO IF ONE IS INTELLIGENT ENOUGH, IF HE HAS GOT ACTUALLY THE BITTER TASTE OF THIS MATERIAL WORLD, HE’LL NEVER AGREE. HE’LL NEVER AGREE.
What Mahesh Raja is not able to comprehend is hat INDEPENDANCE does NOT mean it will be misused always. Independence is not synonymous with fall-down. Those who will not misuse their independence will not fall down.
Quoting only half the verse to prove that the soul will definitely always fall down because of misusing his independence is not quite sound and wrong conclusion.
Quoting Srila Prabhupada’s COMPLETE verse it states quite the opposite from what Mahesh Raja is insinuating, namely that a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls, because he will NOT misuse his independence.
Yes he MIGHT be (misusing), there is a chance – but he will not. (What is the meaning of this?)
Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. It is not static; it is dynamic. Therefore, misuse of independence is the cause of being influenced by māyā.
Prabhupada: NO! THERE IS POSSIBILITY, BUT HE DOES NOT COME. JUST LIKE AFTER PUTTING YOUR HAND IN THE FIRE, YOU NEVER PUT IT AGAIN IF YOU ARE REALLY INTELLIGENT. SO THOSE WHO ARE GOING BACK TO GODHEAD, THEY BECOME INTELLIGENT.
This is what Mahes Raja is quoting to prove that you WILL (must) fall down, when Srila Prabhupada says, there is only a possibility, and in the same breath Srila Prabhupada says, BUT HE DOES NOT COME, meaning he will not fall down. The first part is only a possibility the second part is a factual statement: otherwise what is the meaning “but he does not come”?
Why Mahesh Raja is putting so much emphasis on the first part ignoring the second part? No where in the Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada says, that the soul WILL fall down (for sure), but it always says: “there might be a chance – but he will not misuse”
“The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord DO NOT MISUSE their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord.” (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)
MISUSING ONES INDEPENDENCE IN VAIKUNTHA
The word kuta-stha, meaning “without change,” is also very significant. There are two kinds of living entities-nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. Such a nitya-mukta living entity represents the Supersoul as His expansion. As stated in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. Thus the nitya-mukta living entity knows that he is an expansion of the supreme nitya, or the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)
Residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord and therefore WILL NEVER MISUSE their free will.
“The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord.” (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…, do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that “I am meant for Krsna’s service,” and they are happy in Krsna’s service. (670218CC.SF)
One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always there; we are also always there. And there are millions and millions of liberated souls who are engaged in Kṛṣṇa. They NEVER MISUSE their independence. And we small quantity, we misused our independence. We wanted to enjoy separately. Therefore we are conditioned.
A careful analysis of the qualities of the residents of the spiritual world clearly indicates that they could never desire (or choose) to leave there. Further, we find innumerable references in sastra that Krsna is very favourably disposed to his pure devotees in the spiritual world, carefully protects them, is completely controlled by them and thus would certainly not desire nor make the arrangement that they could so easily fall from his perfect abode.
A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)
Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. (Bg. 7.14, purport)
Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world… They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)
Therefore there is no birth or death for the Vaisnavas [the eternal associates]. They descend to the material world with the Lord and return to His abode with Him. The Vaisnava is never bound by karma and thus does not take birth in the material world. (CC Antya-lila 10.172)