DREAM

DREAM

Bharadvāja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full…? Because we’re going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he’s actually transported?

Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I’m seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He’s dreaming tiger, and he’s crying, “Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger,” and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, “Where is tiger?” So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he’s seeing through…. That is practical. The child, when he’s seeing through the childish body, he’s talking nonsense. The same soul, when he’s talking as an elderly person, he’s talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. [break] Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have…. And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. [break]

Pradyumna: …when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bharadvāja: How does the…. Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bharadvāja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still?

Prabhupāda: No, life symptoms, there is not. The body’s fit; therefore, he comes back again. When the body is not fit, he enters another body. Just like your car you leave. We have come here. Now the car is all right; we go. If it is useless, we don’t go. We take another.

Bharadvāja: The body is breathing.

Hṛdayānanda: That is like leaving the motor running.

Prabhupāda: They, unless the seer returns back, the body will lie down. That is death. The seer no more comes back. Then it is dead.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, sometimes a man dies in his sleep.

Prabhupāda: It is dead.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So sleeping is like temporary death.

Prabhupāda: Yes. All deaths are temporary. When you change bodies, you die for seven months. This death is for few hours, and that is for seven months. That’s all.

Bharadvāja: What happens when he dreams of the spiritual master or Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: That’s all right. Dreaming means he’s seeing. The seer is the same.

Rādhāvallabha: In Hawaii you were saying that they take rest for six months and wake up a dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) [break] …a small garden like this, that is called a hanging garden.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we can walk there in the mornings.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is considered to be the watering process, and sometimes from chanting, the weeds, from watering, the weeds also grow along with devotional service—the weeds of different desires. I don’t understand how it is possible that from chanting that these weeds grow.

Prabhupāda: Chanting is purifying all material desires. It will take, gradually. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you are chanting without any offense, then your heart will be cleansed of all material contamination. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21].

Bharadvāja: So pulling out the weeds means avoiding the offenses in chanting the holy name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long we’ll have material desires, we’ll have to accept a material body and fulfill the desires.

Mahendra: Sometimes, although a devotee understands that he must take birth again if he does not, if he is not strict, he thinks, “Oh, it is so difficult to be strict. Maybe I’ll just take it easy and remain engaged in devotional service, then I’ll take another birth as a devotee and maybe next time I’ll finish up my business.”

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. He gets good opportunity of material enjoyment, and then take birth in good family, aristocratic or brāhmaṇa. Then where he ended in last life, he begins again. There is a verse: paurva-dehikam. Paurva-dehikam means previous birth.

Mahendra: It seems, though, that in that respect, he’s gambling.

Prabhupāda: Gambling?

Mahendra: Yes, he’s gambling, that he’s thinking that “Oh, next life I will come back in a better condition,” but his next might be different.

Prabhupāda: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. One who understands wants to get out in this lifetime.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One who understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness should want to finish the business of material life.

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he’s required to read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. It is said clearly, “This is a place of misery.” Why do you desire to keep yourself in this…. That means you do not understand what is spiritual life.

Hari-śauri: Still thinking he’s this body.

Prabhupāda: Thinking. Thinking, he’s under the influence of māyā. māyā is dictating, “Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica.” (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, “I am not interested,” then your spiritual life is…

Jagannātha-suta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and for Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Hṛdayānanda: You should show Prabhupāda, bring him those plaques.

Jagannātha-suta: Yes, we have those plaques hanging up in the Press building now.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Bring it, I shall see.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] …diminution on this path of devotional service, nehābhikrama-nāśo’sti [Bg. 2.40]. So does that mean that once one enters the material world, there’s only progress in going back to Godhead, although it may be slow, over many lifetimes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One is going slow, one is finishing very rapidly. If one is serious, he can finish very rapidly. If one is not serious, it will take time.

Rāmeśvara: [break] …contests and get all sorts of awards and recognition. Because no one has such beautiful books.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that’s a fact.

Rāmeśvara: We have also won awards for Back to Godhead, the cover design.

Prabhupāda: Cover designs?

Mahendra: They like the cover, but they’re afraid to look inside.

Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time of death, when the soul leaves the body, at that time the body is destroyed. So at the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, how is the body maintained?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rādhāvallabha: At the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, why is the body not destroyed at that time?

Prabhupāda: Why? Suppose you have left the car; does that mean it is destroyed? You are going again.

Rādhāvallabha: But at the time of death it is destroyed when you leave it.

Prabhupāda: Death is different. When the car is no more usable, that is death. But we are returning to the car because we know that it is usable. And if we know that it is useless, we don’t go to that car. That is death.

Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda. At the time of sleeping, there is a subtle reality that the subtle body enters into?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Reality means as you take this awakening vision as reality, similarly, the dream vision is also real…. Nothing, none of them are reality. They are all temporary.

Yadubara: But that subtle reality is just as real as this gross reality?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They’ll not stay. This reality will not stay.

Hari-śauri: It’s all a dreamlike existence.

Prabhupāda: Yes, simply a long duration dream. Do you think this skyscraper building will stay? Nothing will stay. It may stay for five hundred years or five thousand years. But is it not permanent. Anything you take—the trees, this land, nothing; even this ocean. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears again and again disappears, that’s all. Everything. The material world means that. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Vyaktāvyaktam. Sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. This town is manifested, and one big wave of sea, it will be nonmanifested, immediately.

Yadubara: So that subtle reality is existing side by side with this gross reality.

Prabhupāda: Reality is in the spiritual world. This is imitation reality. Real reality is in the spiritual world.

Hari-śauri: We have to go left here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) The material universes are like a produce of Mahā-Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: A big dream, that’s all. Material existence means a big dream. How long you’ll dream? So long you are in this body. And as long as the body is finished, your dream is finished. Your nation, your society, your friends, your money, your bank, everything finished. Is it not a dream? Then dream another—you become cats and dogs or demigods. You dream in a different way. You are now dreaming as American; next life you may dream something else.

Bharadvāja: So every man has his own world that he’s living in?

Prabhupāda: Eh? He creates his own world. Nothing is own—temporary—he creates, and Kṛṣṇa gives him the opportunity, “All right, you enjoy.” Hare nāma, hare nāma.

Govardhana-dhārī: While doing books we create an atmosphere sometimes, the devotees…, Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence to give the spiritual world to these living entities. How can we always stay on that transcendental platform, to make them see this? [break] (in car:)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the soul is the living force, if the soul actually leaves the body, how the body will be…, work.

Rāmeśvara: There’s some connection still. When the soul is…, when the body…, when you are dreaming, and the soul leaves the body, but still there must be some connection between the soul…

Prabhupāda: Connection is there, just like you leave your car, you keep the engine going on—gug gug gug gug gug gug—but you are not there. The engine, you keep it started.

Rāmeśvara: Somehow the soul’s influence is still there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You make that engine keeping—gug gug gug gug. If you like you can stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it actually Kṛṣṇa who’s maintaining the life in the body then? The life of the body is maintained by Kṛṣṇa or by the individual jīva?

Prabhupāda: No, by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa’s property. You are thinking, “It is mine.” Kṣetra-jnanaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I am the proprietor of this body, but another body is there. He is the proprietor of all the bodies. Kṣetra-jnaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. The landlord, he’s the proprietor. You are occupier, that’s all.

Rāmeśvara: Oh. So the Lord in the heart is keeping that body for that jīva, so that when he’s finished dreaming he comes back to it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: It’s actually the Lord that’s keeping it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Rāmeśvara: …the engine going.

Prabhupāda: Maybe driver. Driver is left.

Rāmeśvara: Driver is left.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Like chauffeur.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Kṛṣṇa has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Kṛṣṇa, He says, Kṛṣṇa says, “I am the father of all living entities.” And you were saying, “Who can challenge this or deny it?” Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Kṛṣṇa’s statement, therefore…

Prabhupāda: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.

Rāmeśvara: Well, say in some philosophy…

Prabhupāda: Just like a father, a real father can say, “I am the father.” Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say “No, you are not father, he’s father.” No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.

Rāmeśvara: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose real father says, “I am the father of this boy.” Who will challenge it?

Rāmeśvara: Someone who does not believe my father.

Prabhupāda: That means he’s a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that’s all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.

Rāmeśvara: We say that Kṛṣṇa is all good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: And then the materialist says, “If Kṛṣṇa is all good, then how is there any evil?”

Prabhupāda: Evil is you.

Rāmeśvara: But everything comes from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything comes from…. Yes. If…. You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Kṛṣṇa has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.

Rāmeśvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you come under māyā, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Kṛṣṇa, the māyā is there. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hanā bhoga vānchā kare nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.

Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa is the friend of everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?

Prabhupāda: No, that is His…. Why not?

Rāmeśvara: Because it is not good for me.

Prabhupāda: Then you are not perfectly Kṛṣṇa’s aṁśa. Kṛṣṇa has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.

Rāmeśvara: But if it’s not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Kṛṣṇa give it to me anyway?

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the demand is “You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good…” Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, “You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts.”

Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So when Kṛṣṇa…. Kṛṣṇa knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa’s mercy.

Rāmeśvara: Even though it is bad for me.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You say Kṛṣṇa knows you are going to misuse your independence.

Rāmeśvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must…. Kṛṣṇa is all-knowing.

Prabhupāda: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the…, how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Kṛṣṇa knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Kṛṣṇa knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He’s always…. Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can you actually say that Kṛṣṇa knows you’ll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: …he knows you will definitely misuse…

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: …you can use your independence properly, it’s up to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: But then that limits Kṛṣṇa. If you say that Kṛṣṇa did not know when I will misuse my indep…. or if I will…

Prabhupāda: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.

Rāmeśvara: But doesn’t Kṛṣṇa know if I will do it?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.

Rāmeśvara: Marginal.

Prabhupāda: What will the…. That will depend on…. And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he’ll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.

Rāmeśvara: But the lawyer doesn’t…

Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he’s a dog. I can say you’ll bark.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What you’ll do? That’s all. What to speak of Kṛṣṇa; I can say.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was Satsvarūpa’s question, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja’s question.

Prabhupāda: No, this is the answer. Kṛṣṇa’s position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.

Rāmeśvara: This is Karandhara’s problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Kṛṣṇa gave him the sense attraction, or Kṛṣṇa gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Kṛṣṇa knows everything, so Kṛṣṇa knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Kṛṣṇa give him senses?

Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.

Rāmeśvara: He says Kṛṣṇa is playing games.

Prabhupāda: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, but he says but still, you’ll know that I’m going to misuse it.

Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that “Rāmeśvara is very good boy; let him be in charge.” But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara’s, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Kṛṣṇa changed his position.

Rāmeśvara: He’s so foolish, he blames…

Prabhupāda: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Kṛṣṇa’s activities?

Rāmeśvara: That’s the only answer.

Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa is doing…. You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you’ll suffer.

Rāmeśvara: His argument is that “I should never be allowed to misuse my independence.”

Hari-śauri: There’s no question of independence then.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.

Rāmeśvara: He cannot understand that.

Prabhupāda: He wants to become a machine.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, he’d rather be a machine and be in Kṛṣṇa’s service.

Prabhupāda: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, “Come out.” What to speak of you.

Hari-śauri: That’s like an impersonalist. He doesn’t want any individual existence.

Prabhupāda: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. “I am everything.” Therefore they are called mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jnānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Mūḍha. He’s being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says “I am God.” He’s becoming old, and he says that “I am God.” Why you are becoming old? God is always young.

Rāmeśvara: He has another argument. He says that he’s in the grip of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of māyā. Māyā is keeping him.

Prabhupāda: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Māyā will not leave you.

Rāmeśvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, māyā will not give you.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He’s thinking freedom without Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: He says that māyā keeps making him full of material desires.

Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.

Rāmeśvara: Then he says that “As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The māyā is insurmountable.”

Prabhupāda: No. Māyā is not…. What māyā is? Punishing, that’s all.

Hari-śauri: The desire is ours; it’s simply either Kṛṣṇa or māyā.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.

Rāmeśvara: By chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: How do you…. But then he says, “How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when māyā is making you so attracted?”

Prabhupāda: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparādha. You are thinking that “I am chanting, I am purified,” and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?

Hari-śauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,…

Prabhupāda: No. It is prohibited, aparādha. If you chant with aparādha, offenses, then how you can be pure?

Hari-śauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, “How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?”

Prabhupāda: That is not your business, that is Kṛṣṇa’s business. You follow Kṛṣṇa. If you cheat Kṛṣṇa, then you’ll be cheated. That’s all. Kṛṣṇa does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and māyā will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is māyā’s business.

Hari-śauri: So it’s a question of honesty.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So māyā is not seeing that? How you can avoid? māyā is always there. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He’s seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. “Oh, I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted.” Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you’ll have to suffer the effect.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity…

Prabhupāda: Then he’s…

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: …his position is very bad…

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: …compared to the innocent person, ignorant person.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā [Bg. 7.14].

Rāmeśvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, “The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Kṛṣṇa sanctioning it?”

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not sanction.

Rāmeśvara: Then how is it going on?

Prabhupāda: But you insist, so Kṛṣṇa, in disgust, says, “All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me.” That’s all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?

Rāmeśvara: I never heard it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: “No, don’t touch.” So, and he was…. So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that “Slow the speed and let him touch.” So I did it. So he touched, “Tung.” (sound imitation) Then I said, “Touch again?” “No!” (laughter) So it is like that.

Rāmeśvara: Oh. It is actually Kṛṣṇa’s mercy…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: …that He allows Him to feel the pain.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Purifies his desires.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But he doesn’t have to feel the pain if he’s obedient.

Rāmeśvara: If he insists.

Prabhupāda: He gives instruction. Just like I said, “Don’t touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good.” “No, no.” “So all right, touch.”

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.

Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he’s a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore śāstra-cakṣus—one who follows the śāstra’s instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)

Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1976/jun/morning_walk/los_angeles/june/03/1976

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730823BG.LON Lectures
There are three stages: jagarti, svapna, susupti. Anyone has got this experience. One stage is that you are awakened, another stage is sleeping, and another stage is unconscious. Jagarti, svapna and susupti, the Sanskrit name. Jagarti, when you are awakened, our consciousness is very acute, very strong. In sleeping stage, there is consciousness, but it is not so active. And unconscious stage means consciousness is some way or other subdued, not working. Three stages. So death means that unconsciousness for a long period. That is death. Because the soul is eternal. It will be explained. There is no birth and death. So when this body is annihilated, so the soul remains unconscious for a period, seven months for a human being. Seven months unconscious stage within the womb of the mother. After seven months, the consciousness revives. Just like if you have got an experience under chloroform, unconsciousness. The surgical operation takes place, you do not understand, you do not perceive pains and pleasure, but you remains for a certain hours unconscious. Then, gradually, dream comes. Just, from unconsciousness the dream comes. And from dream, you are awakened. As you go down from awakening stage to dream, dream to unconsciousness, similarly, you come up also, from unconsciousness to dream, from dream to awakening conscious stage.

So death means when this body is lost, gross body, the soul remains in the subtle body–intelligence, mind and ego. That subtle body carries him to another body. But those who are not intelligent, they do not understand what is the subtle body, although it is clearly said subtle body means mind, intelligence. You have got mind, intelligence, everyone knows. But these rascals, because they cannot see mind and intelligence, they think that this man is gone, dead. Mind, intelligence, everyone knows that he has got mind. I know you have got your mind, I have got my mind, you have got intelligence, I have got intelligence. But I do not see your intelligence; it is subtle. Just like there is sky, but here is sky in my front, but I do not see. The things, as they become more subtle and subtler, these gross senses cannot experience. Therefore, the soul is so subtle that it is not possible to perceive the presence of soul with these material senses. So these rascals, they simply say, “No, I cannot see soul.” How can you see? That is not possible? It is so minute and so subtle that it cannot be seen by this gross eye. Acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet.

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740109mw.la Conversations

Hanuman: In your books you say that the world is like a dream.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is dream.
Hanuman: How is it a dream?
Prabhupada: Dream, just like last night you had some dream.
Hanuman: Yes.
Prabhupada: Well, it has no value. It is gone. And again, this night, when you’ll sleep, you’ll forget all these things. You’ll dream. You don’t remember during night, when you are dreaming, that “I have got my house, I have got my wife I have…” You all forget. So it is dream.
Hanuman: It is true or is not true?
Prabhupada: No, no. Where is true? You forget at night. Do you remember when you sleep that you have got your wife and you are sleeping on bed? You have gone some three thousand miles away and seeing something else. Do you remember that you have got a place to reside?
Hanuman: No.
Prabhupada: So this is dream at night. And night dream, what you saw at night, that is now dream. So both of them dream. You are simply visitor. That’s all. You are seeing this dream and that dream. You are, you are fact, but what you are seeing, that is dream.
Hanuman: But I have the impression that “This is true, and my dream is not true.” What is the dif…?
Prabhupada: No, no. Everything is untrue. How it is true? If it is true, why you forget at night? Why you forget? If it is true. Do you remember at night?
Hanuman: No, I don’t remember.
Prabhupada: Then? How it is true? As you don’t remember the dreams which you saw last night…, That, therefore we say “dream.” Similarly this thing, because you forget at night, this is also dream.
Hanuman: But I have…
Prabhupada: This is day-dream, that is night-dream. That’s all.
Bahulasva: Jaya. Day-dream and night-dream. And the night-dream, then you perceive that as being real.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bahulasva: When you dream at night, then you think that is real.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real. You cry… It is dream, but you are crying, “There is tiger, tiger, tiger!” Where is tiger? But you are seeing it is fact, tiger. “I am being killed by a tiger.” But where is tiger. (break) …in dream you are embracing some beautiful girl. Where is that beautiful girl? But actually this is happening.
Hanuman: Is it happening?
Prabhupada: It is happening because there is discharge of semina, night pollution. But where is that girl? Is it not dream? So similarly this is also dream. You are having the effect of truthfulness, but it is a dream. Maya… Therefore it is called maya-sukhaya. The same thing, that at night you are dreaming you are embracing nice beautiful girl, as there is no such thing, similarly, in the daytime also, whatever advancement you are making, this is also like that. Maya-sukhaya. We are happy, we are dreaming, “This process will make me happy. This process will make me happy.” But the whole process is dream only. You are taking this day-dream as reality because the duration is long. At night, when you dream, the duration is for half an hour. And this is for twelve hours, or more than that. That is the difference. It is a twelve hours’ dream, and that is half an hour dream. But actually, both of them are dream. And because it is twelve hours’ dream, you are taking it as, accepting it as real. That is called illusion.
Bahulasva: Illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are making distinction between animal and ourself, but we’re forgetting, we are forgetting, the animal also will die and I will also die. So where is my advancement? Will you remain? You’ll also die. So where is your advancement upon animals? That is stated in sastra: ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanam etat pasubhir naranam. Business–eating, sleeping, sex-life and defending–this is also animal’s business. And you are also doing the same. How you are distinct from animal? You’ll die. The animal will die. But if you say, “I’ll die after one hundred years, and this ant will die after one hour,” that does not mean that you are in reality. It is a question of time. Just like this huge universe. It will be all be destroyed. As your body will be destroyed, this will be destroyed, annihilation, dissolution. Nature’s way, everything will be dissolved. So therefore it is dream. It is a long duration dream. That’s all. Nothing else. But the advantage is that even in this dream you can realize the reality, God. That is the… So if you don’t take advantage of this dream, then you are missing.
Hanuman: So I am half asleep.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the… Therefore Vedas says, uttisthata. “Get up, get up, get up!” Jagrta. “Become awakened.” Prapya varam nibodhata. “Now you have got the opportunity. Utilize it.” This is Vedic injunction. Uttisthata jagrta prapya varam nibodhata. This is Vedic in… Tamasi ma jyotir gama. These are Vedic injunctions. So we are preaching the same thing, that “Reality is here, Krsna. Don’t remain in this darkness. Come to this consciousness.” That is our preaching. Tamasi ma jyotir gama. (break) …experienced the sunshine, bright day, and this gloomy day. So when you are in darkness, we must have to admit, “There is light.” Because darkness means absence of light. So as we are in the darkness of this material existence, there must be something life of light. That is spiritual world. That is reality. (break) …aham brahmasmi. “Oh, I don’t belong to this darkness, darkness atmosphere. I belong to the light atmosphere.” That is self-realization. Aham brahmasmi.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param

This is brahma-bhuta stage. Just like this is a cakra. I am walking on this wheel. But I am thinking I am advancing. What is this advancement? It is already there. Just like they are advancing in science and they must remain here. They are trying for so many years to go to the Moon planet, and no result. (laughs) The same, same thing. “Now we are going to the moon planet.” But coming again. That’s all. So samsara-cakra. Just like the dog. Dog is sometimes barking: “Gata-gata-gata-gata!” The master says, “Come on.” Immediately come. He thinks that “I have got freedom. Let me jump over.” You see. So we are thinking like that. We are under the maya’s clutches. “Come on, come on here.” Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah. He’s under the reins of prakrti. He cannot go anywhere. (pause) (break)
Hanuman: …simultaneously in the dream and not in the dream. So when…
Prabhupada: That is reality, when you are chanting Hare Krsna. That is reality.
Hanuman: But I also see all this.
Prabhupada: Eh? That is another thing. On the path of reality, you come.
Hanuman: On the path?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is a process. When the process is complete, then you’ll come to the reality. But that is the process. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. We cannot distinguish now reality and non-reality because the heart is unclean. So we have to cleanse, and then we come to the reality.
Svarupa Damodara: For that matter, Srila Prabhupada, when one comes to that stage, there is no difference between animate and inanimate. Is that true?
Prabhupada: Highest stage?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Highest stage, everything animate.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So a stone… Even a stone has soul.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Just like this tree. You cut; it does not protest. The consciousness is not developed. That is the… But it has got life. You scientists, you do not believe that stone has also life?
Svarupa Damodara: No, they say it’s just matter.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Svarupa Damodara: They say there’s no life there.
Prabhupada: No, there is life.
Nitai: Every stone has life?
Prabhupada: Yes. No, dead stone has no… But there are many mountains, they are increasing. You know, at Benares there is a stone? Tila-bandhesvara. (?)
Svarupa Damodara: I don’t know.
Prabhupada: Yes. That increases. If you go, see today, and go ten years after, you’ll see–take the measurement–it has increased. They’ll go…
Svarupa Damodara: But they will say that because of the position of the dust particles the size will increase. Even a small…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is clean. There is no… It is being washed even. Its name is Tila-bandhesvara. (?) So there is no uncleanliness. Still, the body increases. There is still Tila-bandhesvara. (?) There is temple of Tila-bandhesvara. People go to see.
Svarupa Damodara: But the consciousness is covered there.
Prabhupada: Covered, yes. Dullness means consciousness is covered. You put a child in open air. He’ll not feel much cold. You see practically. He’ll not feel. Because consciousness is not developed. Animal, they will not feel cold. But we feel.
Bahulasva: But Prabhupada, there are still such things as dead matter?
Prabhupada: Not dead matter. The soul is there.
Bahulasva: Suppose something, well, something like this shoe that I’m wearing…,
Prabhupada: It is now dead matter. But when you go, the higher understanding, it is a composition of atoms. So we learn from Vedic sastra that within the atom there is life. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami. There is, there. If within the atom there is life, then what to speak of anything else.
Bahulasva: That’s a jivatma?
Prabhupada: No, no. Govinda is there.
Bahulasva: Krsna.
Prabhupada: When Krsna is there, then Krsna is there with everything. Krsna cannot be alone.
Bahulasva: This is the real science, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. Vijnana. Yad vijnana-samanvitam. Jnanam parama-guhyam me yad vijnana-samanvitam. Is it not? Jnanam me… “My knowledge is very confidential and it is full of science.” Jnanam parama-guhyam me yad vijnana-samanvitam. And in the Bhagavad-gita there is said, “Knowing this knowledge…” Yaj jnatva neha bhuyo ‘nyaj jnatavyam avasisyate. In the Vedas it is said, kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. So this is the way. Try to understand Krsna and everything will be known. (break) …guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Eh? Bhagavad-gita. Raja-vidya, the knowledge, the king of knowledge. (break)
Hanuman: Without your mercy, there’s no way out of the dream of material life.
Prabhupada: Krsna’s. Krsna’s mercy. Yes. (pause) (break)
Svarupa Damodara: …water is tasteless, but Krsna says, “I am the taste in water.” Science says water is tasteless, no taste in water.
Prabhupada: Science says.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: But have you tasted that tasteless water? (laughter)
Gurukrpa: If it is so tasteless, why is it quenching?
Karandhara: If someone gives you a glass of water and you drink it, you immediately know what it is.
Svarupa Damodara: They’ll say the taste of water depends on the amount of chemicals contained in the water.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. So that is Krsna. That is Krsna. The tastefulness. Tastefulness of water is Krsna. Not the water.
Bahulasva: People have such a clouded idea of what is God, Srila Prabhupada. When you explain it, it’s very real.
Gurukrpa: Prabhupada, the other day you mentioned that during the eating activities, during sex activity, there is increase of breathing.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gurukrpa: Now, when we do the kirtana, there is much increase of breathing. So what is the difference?
Prabhupada: The difference is that… (Break) …why your child is less conscious than yourself?
Gurukrpa: Because he’s not developed.
Prabhupada: He’s also living entity. Why he’s foolish, and why you are intelligent? What is the answer?
Gurukrpa: Because the consciousness is more developed.
Prabhupada: Then develop… So you develop your consciousness. Then you will understand Krsna.
Gurukrpa: So I must be more fortunate than the other living entities in my body.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Gurukrpa: The other living entities.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore it is called, human life is so valuable. You are not cats and dogs. You have got the opportunity to understand God, Krsna.
Devotee: Only by your mercy, Srila Prabhupada. (end)

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Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the main point. The subtle body carries the soul. Just like in dream, we are carried by the subtle body and placed in different condition. But so long this body is capable of working, I come to this body. My dream is over, and I come back to this body. And death means that this body, being useless, instead of coming to this body, I go to another body. This is transmigration. Just like when you vacate an apartment, then you do not come back in that apartment, but you enter another apartment. Is it clear?

Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1974/jun/morning_walk/germany/june/20/1974

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Your ever well-wisher,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

encl: 1

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila—both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don’t waste your time with this “Kaka taliya nyaya,” crows and tal-fruit logic.

Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/letters/los_angeles/may/16/1972/madhudvisa

 

(by Mahesh Raja)