Scheverman, June 15, 1976, Detroit: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the homeless.
Prabhupada: A man is poor when he’s in ignorance.
Scheverman: So you see that as a greater poverty, is the ignorance, rather than the physical poverty of not having enough food.
Prabhupada: So food problem can be solved simply by accepting…. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Find out. Annad bhavanti bhutani. How everyone can…. Find out.
Dhrstadyumna: “All living bodies subsist on food grains which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by the performance of sacrifice, and sacrifice is born of prescribed duties.”
Prabhupada: So if you produce enough food grains, both the man and the animal will live very peacefully. Food grains. And I’ve seen in your country, in America, in Africa, in Australia, so much vacant land without producing food grains. So men are not engaged to produce food grains, but they are brought in Detroit to manufacture of wheels of motorcar.
Kern: For ambulances to bring the sick to the doctor.
Prabhupada: So we have to correct this. First of all, produce food.
Scheverman: So if I understand you correctly, you are saying utilize intelligence to correct the problem. Produce more food rather than worry about the fact…. So that the poor can have to eat and the animals can have. So your approach, then, is not one of direct assistance to the person who is starving or suffering, but rather indirect, utilizing intelligence to produce food.
Prabhupada: Yes, and there will be no starvation.
Scheverman: It’s an intellectual approach. I think our approach would be, we would be concerned with a person-to-person assistance. That is the way, our way, that Jesus has taught us. He said, “Feed the hungry and harbor the harborless and visit the imprisoned.”
Prabhupada: Yes. If you have got enough food grains…. Just like in our headquarter in Bengal, we are giving food daily, at least one thousand men.
Scheverman: So you are feeding the hungry at your headquarters in London. You do utilize then the direct approach as well.
Prabhupada: No, our process is that everyone who is hungry, come and take your food. But our program is going on, but feeding the poor is automatically there. If anyone comes to our temple, even here, anyone comes and take prasada.
Kern: Couldn’t get in. If a poor person came here, they could not get in to eat. (laughing)
Makhanlal: No, we have many people coming from the neighborhood here. They are coming regularly. Even young children. Everything. They are coming. We have groups, community groups are coming.
Kern: Oh, do you? Very good, that’s fine.
Scheverman: And we too. We have always responded to those who have a need for food or clothing or shelter. This comes to us every day, too.
Kern: But to make a person ask is not the right kind of society. Shouldn’t, if a person be the first-class citizen and therefore independent and therefore seek his own so that he could serve God by his own intelligence and his independence…. There’s no virtue to be giving; it’s more of a virtue to receive.
Jayadvaita: He’s suggesting that because we are requiring that a person come to us for food, that somehow this is interfering with his independence.
Prabhupada: Where is that independence? With his family he can come and take food. What is wrong there? We say that we should not…, we are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No.
It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first-class man. That is our program. Don’t be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace.
Kern: Doctor, do you recruit people to come?
Prabhupada: Yes, we are inviting everyone come. We have no such distinction.
Kern: I have four young alcoholics I’d like to send over.
Prabhupada: No, these boys and girls are not imported from India, recruited. They are recruited here. I came alone. They are all recruited. I have got so many centers all over the world. They are simply recruited.
Scheverman: Your asceticism, your way of life, your training program, having its Eastern origins, has a great appeal, I think, for many young people.
Prabhupada: It is not Eastern, Western. It is the life. Just like to become peaceful, is it Eastern or Western? Peaceful is peaceful. Why do you bring Eastern?
Scheverman: No, but the way in which, the method in which…, is it Eastern? This is not to say it is bad; it is good too. There are many traditions….
Prabhupada: No, I mean to say, it we look for Eastern, Western, then it become sectarian. But it is for all. If you teach a person to become peaceful, it is not the question of Eastern and Western. It is meant for everyone.
Scheverman: Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall see God.” Yes.
Prabhupada: That’s right. That’s right. So why should you say that it is Eastern or Western?
Scheverman: Well your methodology, much of your personal vocabulary, your garb, is from the East.
Prabhupada: It is not personal. It may be said that in Eastern countries or in India, these things are very much appreciated and developed. That is another thing. But the thing as it is, it is neither Eastern or Western.
Scheverman: Oh, good. I grant it that the principles that you are utilizing are general and universal, granted.
Kern: May I ask you, Your Excellency, your own background? Were you born in India? Were you born in any other…?
Prabhupada: Yes, I am Indian. I was born in Calcutta.
Kern: In Calcutta. And when you were there in Calcutta, did you receive the training?
Prabhupada: Yes. I…, fortunately I was born in a very good family. So our familywise training was there. Especially in India, every family, it is like that. Trained up.
Kern: And your own schooling, then, in the local schools in Calcutta?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not in the school, but in my family.
Kern: In the family. Any formal?
Prabhupada: Not family. My mother taught us: if there is one grain on the floor, we shall take it, keep it on the head. It is God-sent.
Kern: Yes, and our mothers too, the same thing.
Prabhupada: It is God-sent. The grain, food grain, it is actually given by God. You should not misuse it. This was the beginning of our training.
Kern: And then were you at the university or the school or somewhere?
Prabhupada: Yes, Calcutta University. I was taught at the Scottish Churches College. All my professor’s were Fathers and Reverends. Our principal was…. They were all Fathers. Mr. Scott.
Scheverman: They were clergymen of the Church of Scotland, your teachers.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. My professor of philosophy was Dr. W. S. Urquhart. He was a very famous man in India. He became vice chancellor.
Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing?
Prabhupada: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he’s trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the…. That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brahmana, the ksatriya, the vaisya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brahmana, the brain…, taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.
Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere…, I’d like to move into this area of religious experience.
Prabhupada: I shall request that…. There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful…
Scheverman: Now, how would you proceed in this training program? I’d be interested in that.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is…. If I say that “Live peacefully,” this instruction is neither exclusively for America or Indian. It is for everyone.
Scheverman: That’s universal, peaceful, that’s universal.
Prabhupada: Universal. What is another quality? Peaceful, and then?
Dhrstadyumna: Self-control.
Prabhupada: Self-control. This is also not either for American or…. “The Americans should not be self-controlled, only Indians should be self-controlled.” (laughter) This is not the proposal. Self-control. Then?
Dhrstadyumna: Austerity.
Prabhupada: Austerity. Tapasya. Austerity means that naturally I am inclined to do something. Take, for example, generally people are addicted or inclined to eat meat or to drink. Natural. Not for all, but a class. But if I train him that “Although you like this, you should give up this,” that is austerity. He feels some inconvenience in the beginning.
Scheverman: Austeritos is a Latin word that refers to strength. To be able to stand and be sharp and deciding.
Prabhupada: So this is austerity, when voluntarily accepting something which he does not like to give up. That is austerity.
Scheverman: Disciplined.
Prabhupada: Discipline, yes.
Devotee (1): As well as self-controlled.
Prabhupada: So in order to go to the highest status of life, he has to accept some austerity, tapasya. Especially for God realization. Austerity required. Then?
Dhrstadyumna: Purity.
Prabhupada: Purity. So our purity…. Not our—everyone. Externally, internally. Externally, by taking bath or cleansing the body with soap of something else. And internally, to remain God conscious.
Kern: Internally to what?
Prabhupada: Remain God conscious.
Scheverman: Remain God conscious.
Prabhupada: Simply washing externally will not help us. Therefore our mantra of purity is bahyabhyantara-sucih.
(om) apavitrah pavitro va sarvavastham gato ’pi va yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Sucih means purified.
Scheverman: Means?
Prabhupada: Purified.
Scheverman: Purified, yes.
Prabhupada: So purification, simply externally rubbing soap and cleansing the coat and shirt, that is not purification. Internally he must be pure. Peaceful. Then, purity?
Dhrstadyumna: Tolerance.
Prabhupada: Tolerance. This is also one of the good qualifications for the first-class man. Then?
Dhrstadyumna: Honesty.
Prabhupada: Honesty. So there are so many things. If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes. Not that everyone will be peaceful. That is not possible. But if we have an ideal class of men who is following austerity, peacefulness, purity, knowledge, people will learn: “Oh, here is the ideal class.”
Kern: Mr. Gandhi had a great effect.
Prabhupada: Yes. That training is lacking now.
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