Syamasundara: …But isn’t the tendency there to exploit the man and take more profit?
Prabhupada: That must be. Not only the capitalists exploit, the laborers also exploit.
Syamasundara: Laborers exploit?
Prabhupada: Yes. One laborer is charging five rupees, another laborer is charging ten rupees. That profiteering, exploiting tendency is everywhere. Why the laborers strike? To make more profit. Do you mean to say because he is laborer he is free from this profit-making desires?
Syamasundara: But their idea is that if the means of production are owned by the people, that this condition, this social condition, will wither away.
Prabhupada: That was perfect in Vedic system, that you… The land is supposed to belong to the government or to the king. The king gives you the land that “You make production and give me tax, one-fourth. That’s all.” So there is no question of profit. If you have produced one kilo, give one-fourth kilo to the king as tax. That is real social system.
Actually, according to our Vedic system, everything belongs to God and the king is supposed to be representative of God to manage things. So for his managerial work he requires some money. Therefore I have taken some land for my livelihood. So whatever production is there, I pay one-fourth to the king for management. This is nice system. As soon as the tax is realized in terms of pound, shillings, pence, whole difficulty arises.
I have produced ten mounds of rice and out of that one-fourth I give to the government or to the king. So I have no anxiety. If I produce twenty mounds, I give one-fourth. If I produce ten mounds, I give one-fourth. If I don’t produce I don’t give. This is perfect system.
Pancadravida: So if I give one quarter to the king that’s the representative of God, what if the brahmana and the spiritual master…
Prabhupada: That we shall talk later on.
Syamasundara: This Mao Tse Tung believes in using a constant ideological struggle as an accepted…
Prabhupada: No, no. This ideology has no struggle. Whatever is produced, you pay one-fourth. There is no question of struggle. If I have to pay some fixed tax, ten rupees, for this land I have secured, but if I don’t produce, I have no ten rupees, there is struggle. Where I get this ten rupees? Then I have to take loan from somebody else. That brings my anxiety. But if this system is accepted, then I, if I produce, I give you one-fourth; if I don’t produce, I have no anxiety. That is perfect system.
Syamasundara: His idea is that the constant ideological propaganda, you have to remind the people of the fears behind the practice. If there is risk, something, you have to remind them.
Prabhupada: But why this is a constant struggle for ideological? You accept this ideal. So there is no anxiety. If I produce, I pay. If I don’t produce, I don’t pay. Is it not better?
Syamasundara: The idea is…
Prabhupada: Why I shall develop an ideological perfection by conflict, by struggle, by talking in the parliament, and talking to the leaders, and… Make this simple method that whatever you produce, you give me one-fourth. That’s all.
Syamasundara: He believes that whatever is produced, all should be given. Everything.
Prabhupada: Why all should be given? That means he’s killed my independence.
Syamasundara: There should be no proprietorship. There should be no private property.
Prabhupada: No. Proprietor should be allotted proprietor, that I belong… You give me… The king or the government gives me this land. So that is my proprietorship. Just like I have taken this house. So it is higher proprietorship. I do not allow anybody to come here. That is trespassing.
Syamasundara: Even the farms in China are collective. The people work together, cooperate to produce such and such products. They give the whole product to the state. In return, they receive their lodging, their cloths.
Prabhupada: But that will never give them satisfaction. That is artificial.
Syamasundara: So they need constant ideological brainwashing to maintain this state of activity.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. If I know that “This land belongs to me, government has allotted me,” so I can develop in my own way. I have got freedom. Wholesale dependence, what is the value of this?
Syamasundara: He believes that that’s a false idea, this idea of freedom or proprietorship. That it only leads to exploitation and misery for others.
Prabhupada: Misery for others?
Syamasundara: If I have proprietorship of something, then that means someone else is deprived of that.
Prabhupada: Why deprived? He has got proprietorship. You have got proprietorship, I have got proprietorship. Why you are deprived? Because government has given me some land, it does not mean that a fellow subject, my brother, should not be given.
As I have got, he has got. Therefore our Upanisad says, tena tyaktena bhunjitha. “Whatever is given to you by God, you be satisfied.” That is Vedic system. Therefore you find, a poor man is also satisfied and a rich man is also satisfied.
The poor man thinks that “God has given me this; so I must be satisfied with this and execute my God consciousness.” And the rich man also thinks that “God has given me this; so let me be satisfied with this and save my time.” There is no competition.
Syamasundara: Under this philosophy, the rich man does not exploit the worker, take his work for profit?
Prabhupada: Sometimes the worker wants rich man’s exploitation. If he has no work, if the rich man does not give him work, he thinks unemployed. You have seen practically; the Africans, by serving, they are more satisfied.
Just like a dog. A dog having a master is more happy, and a dog having no master is a street dog. He is unhappy. So there are certain stages where one is happy having a master, having a protector. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Paricaryatmakam karyam sudra-karma svabhava-jam.
A sudra mentality. Because he has no higher intelligence. He has to depend on some good master. That is his happiness. But when the master exploits him, that is a different thing. But one class should be master, another class should be servant—that is nature’s arrangement.
Syamasundara: Well, this Mao Tse Tung’s systemology, or his method of knowing truth, of knowing things, is that first of all there is the perceptual, or the phenomenal, and this becomes the conceptual, or inferential. In other words, if you…, you can condition people to a certain type of truth by presenting some phenomenon repeatedly, over and over again, until they accept it, they make a conception: “This is the truth.”
Prabhupada: So that is our process. We say that perceptual fact is that we are controlled. Every one of us, controlled. Who can deny it? Why you are running on this fan? Because you are controlled. There is excessive heat controlling you. Therefore I am trying to counteract it.
In every step you are controlled by the laws of nature. So how he thinks that he is independent? Why does he manufacture so many so-called laws of independence? In fact he is controlled. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. He is in contact with some modes of material nature, and he is controlled by them.
So why does he not accept that “I am not independent, I am controlled. The basic principle is that I am controlled.” Then if one is actually conversant with the laws of control, then he makes adjustment according to that. One being controlled, how he can become controller? This is phenomenon. Where one is… Let any man come and say boldly that “I am not controlled.” Who is that man? Find out any man. We are sitting, so many men here.
Let any one of us declare that “I am not controlled.” So therefore basic principle is that “I am controlled.” So how this position of being controlled can be perfect, that should be our study. That is our Krishna consciousness. We say that you are controlled. So the supreme controller is Krishna. So you voluntarily surrender yourself, that “Krishna, from this day… I was struggling against Your laws. Now I fully surrender.” Full Discussion
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