Back To Prabhupada, Issue 29: Though The Great Guru Hoax is indeed a hoax of monumental proportions, we will show that it is executed via a technique that is so transparent and simple, that even an 8 year old child would not fall for it. Yet, unfortunately, it seems that many have fallen for the proposals of the acting GBC.
ISKCON pre 1978
The situation in ISKCON, whilst Srila Prabhupada was physically present, was as follows:
a) As a result of reading Srila Prabhupada’s books, a devotee would join the movement. He would get all his knowledge from Srila Prabhupada, follow all of Srila Prabhupada’s disciplines and rules, and serve Srila Prabhupada by following the instructions Srila Prabhupada gave, and then get delivered spiritually by Srila Prabhupada.
b) Senior devotees, such as GBCs, temple presidents and ritviks, would simply help bring such persons to Srila Prabhupada’s lotus feet, by training them, initiating them as Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, giving classes, preaching, and engaging them in Srila Prabhupada’s service, while Srila Prabhupada would actually be engaging them in Krishna’s service and taking them to Krishna. Many devotees would never meet or even see Srila Prabhupada.
c) Most initiation ceremonies were conducted often by empowered representatives on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. At the ceremony the initiate is told that he is being initiated on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, by these empowered representatives.
ISKCON today
The situation today in ISKCON is the same as above, and we present the evidence for this below:
“ISKCON leaders shall teach that Srila Prabhupada’s books and teachings are the foundation of the spiritual lives of all ISKCON members.”
(Law 405 (F), GBC Resolutions, 1999)
“Therefore our responsibility is to mediate between you and Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada will take you to Krishna.”
(HH Bhakti Charu Swami, Durban Disciples’ Meeting, 7/4/2006)
“..our responsibility is to help you approach the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada, as the pre-eminent acharya, takes you to Krishna and engages you in His service.”
(HH Bhakti Charu Swami, Text PAMH0:13658994,10/6/2007)
“..if you are surrendering to me, formalizing your surrender, then what kind of responsibility do I have to you? It is to transmit your surrender to the institution of ISKCON. Generally the guru transmits this to Krishna, but here I am not directly representing Krishna. I am representing Krishna through the via medium of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON.
(HH Bhakti Charu Swami, Durban Disciples’ Meeting, 1/8/2007)
“Everyone’s spiritual life is actually anchored onto Srila Prabhupada […] to Srila Prabhupada’s mercy and Prabhupada is going to deliver them.”
(HH Bhakti Charu Swami, Toronto, 20/7/2003)
Further, it is routine in initiation ceremonies today for the initiate to be told he is being initiated “on behalf” of Srila Prabhupada, as the following report illustrates:
“..fifty candidates received initiation from His Holiness Radhanath Swami, a spiritual teacher and travelling monk […] Radhanath Swami spoke to me as follows, “On behalf of Srila Prabhupada, I am honoured to give you the name Jagannath Sharan das.”
(http://iskconuk.com/?p=352)
Name tag hoax
During the pre 1978 scenario, Srila Prabhupada was functioning as the diksha, or initiating, guru (and main siksha, or instructing, guru), with all others acting, at best, as assistant siksha gurus:
“The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, August 4th, 1975)
Though the functions of Srila Prabhupada and his disciples today have remained the same, with his disciples simply “teaching and doing” what Srila Prabhupada taught and did, the GBC has decided to exchange name tags.
Those who are actually, at best, only assistant siksha gurus assisting the diksha guru, are now called diksha gurus, while Srila Prabhupada is now considered at best to be acting only as siksha guru. This name change is the key to the whole hoax, because simply as a result of the change in title, but not activity or function, ISKCON’s followers have accepted:
a) Those who were actually at best assistant siksha gurus, have magically turned into diksha gurus.
b) Srila Prabhupada who is actually the diksha guru, is magically no longer the diksha guru.
c) Those calling themselves diksha gurus have now been conferred all the benefits, honour and worship that previously belonged to Srila Prabhupada.
So, essentially, a huge hoax, and the attendant grab of power and position has been based on something as simple and silly as changing name-tags.
Even a child can see
If the milkman and mailman decided to play a trick on a child, with the milkman claiming he is the mailman, and the mailman claiming he is the milkman, even an 8 year old would not fall for such a stupid trick.
Because he would see that the milkman, regardless of what he is calling himself, still delivers the milk, not the mail, and the mailman, regardless of what he is calling himself, still delivers the mail, not the milk.
Similarly, today Srila Prabhupada alone is still delivering everyone in ISKCON, just as he did pre-1978. Indeed, the situation is so absurd that it reminds one of the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”, where everyone (apart from, ironically, a child) could see that the Emperor was wearing no clothes, but went along with the Emperor’s hoax, simply to please the Emperor.
In ISKCON’s case, however, the situation is even more absurd, because the “Emperors” (ISKCON’s diksha gurus) actually admit they have no clothes (they do nothing different to what they did pre-1978), and still everyone falls for it!
Conclusion
The guru hoax is basically nothing more than “ritviks” (officiating priests) continuing as “ritviks”, with the ritviks simply deciding to call themselves “diksha gurus”. And through this simple device alone, they get treated and worshipped as such. Unfortunately, the words “brain-washed” and “gullible cult members” immediately come to mind!
The guru hoax in “ISKCON” is that the gurus are not appointed by the Acarya, they are like the kind of the hereditary or sectarian gurus of the smartha brahmana sahajiya sects. The other fault and reason of their non bona fides is the fact that they are choosen by votes of other conditioned and motivated jivas. They have their agenda, as one can see from the quote of Bhakti Caru:”…Generally the guru transmits this to Krishna, but here I am not directly representing Krishna. I am representing Krishna through the via medium of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON”, he/they know that they are fake, but since being corrupted, like the ritualistic brahmanas from Krishna lila, they can’t surrender nonetheless! So the point is not to create a new division and still new camps of another, “better” ritviks but to follow the whole body of the teachings of the Acarya, stick to the practices, amongst one is not to specualate and instead of hanging around for years with this ritvik utopia, which in the matter of helping to reinstate ISKCON will never breed anything else but more and more divisions and court fees, taking away milions of Prabhupada dollars! An old story known from GM, Prabhupada warned to repeat! Why don’t you try to become perfect and submissive disciples, and just do follow the traditional teachings of the acaryas in accordance with the triad of guru, sastra and sadhu? Those are the honest facts, a real measure of your activities is bewilderment and nescience prabhu! While the butchers from BBTI tore off the divine books of Srila Prabhupada suiting their vested interests, you are changing all the meaning of the very same books regarding the guru tattva, by the means of unscrupulous indirect pseudo explanations and warped interpretations! We just have to put real faith in Srila Prabhupad and wait for His bona fide disciples to become gurus, but no more than just “regular guru, that’s all”, and on Prabhupad’s order only! Personally I do belive in Prabhupada, not in your ritivk delusions.
and without offence prabhu, please
y.s. jd
The roots of corruption lies, cheating etc are so engrained in this heresy that, even if the GBC were to turn around and change the system back to Srila Prabhupadas Ordered Ritvik System tomorrow, the people who have been running this circus all these years could never be trusted. THE TRUST IS GONE..FINISHED!
The ritvik ceremonies conducted by both Radhanatha Swami and Bhakti Charu Swami are simply cleverly worded ceremonies that’s all. Let’s see if they can first of all follow the example of the Six Goswamis and give up the wealth and prestige they have accumulated from within Srila Prabhupadas Society. Would they do this? Then, let them go to work in their nearest Iskcon Pot shed. Would they do this? Actions speak louder than words, especially regarding TRUST!
Kurma Dasa
There are many devotees like Jagaddarta who figure this is yet another man-made idea, ritvik. All over those usually join the Gaudiya-matha.
Presently these devotees don’t look back, read anything about Prabhupada’s movement. They figure let bygones be bygones, we no more want to recall the past, etc.
This is where folks like Jagaddarta might find peace.
Btw, all devotees want the association of a bona fide living guru, but as Prabhupada says, there might be gaps: “Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku. And so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system.”
Conditioned souls are always worried about gaps, that is symptomatic. When the sun sets in the evening they panic, we need artificial light.
So this is the Jagaddarta type, always panic. Problem is some things are by default like that, e.g. sunset.
Especially when it comes to direct representative of the Supreme Lord, diksa guru, to artificially create a guru and ask Krishna to remove him by force if this man is unqualified. Don’t bother Krishna with such foolish ideas!
And without offence prabhu, please.
ys
pd
Dear Premancur prabhu, I am not offended, in fact I am satisfied with your answer to much more extend You may at all expected to happen, really!:) Personally I am wholeheartedly against joining Gaudiya Math in any way. The ritvik proponents can’t simple imagine such attitude from someone who is neither ISKCONite, nor ritivk nor… anything more but Kali Yuga rascal! I don’t have also any problem with gaps, or with imidiate pressure on having a directcly present, in front of me manifested form of Sri Guru! But I do not need for all of this you, the ritvik vadis, since as the Acarya said, “So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.â€
(Srila Prabhupada Arrival Speech, May 17th, 1977)
Honestly speaking, nobody can’t find a single straight forward proof of the whole ritivk on demand in absentia issue in any of Prabhupada books, or any other Å›astra, but rather the opposite! Now you intimidate us with the feeling of guilt, sugesting that all of independently thoughtful individualls who are reluctant to follow this new, contrived from a managerial letter written by one particularly motivated individual on the July 9 of 1977 thing, must be in fact demons, Prabhupada haters, either from FISKCON, or GM, or whatever suits your sentimental fanaticism on this whole “final order” point. I do reject this mentality, I am going to preach against this nonsense, since I don’t see any direct proof to this in the Å›astra, as I don’t see any proof to the voted in gurus, or Gaudiya matha kind jagat gurus, and so on. Why we simply don’t follow and preach the path shown to us by the current Acarya Srila Prabhupada in His purport to SB.1.2.18 and the very vers itself where is stated:
By regular attendance in classes on the BhÄgavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact.
Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the BhÄgavatas. There are two types of BhÄgavatas, namely the book BhÄgavata and the devotee BhÄgavata. Both the BhÄgavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee BhÄgavata is as good as the book BhÄgavata because the devotee BhÄgavata leads his life in terms of the book BhÄgavata and the book BhÄgavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also BhÄgavatas. BhÄgavata book and person are identical.end of the quote.
So who is finding here any, even slightest indication of an obligatory must of formal diksha, what to speak of demanding it from the non present, non manifested devotee Bhagavat Himself, while worshiping as above prescribed the person Books Bhagavat?! Why You ritivks want so strongly to be something better! When the master asks for water, you run to him with a cup of hot milk!
y.s Jd
I am not Your enemy prabhus, I am just trying to be sane, and find out the objective truth in this crazy world of unlimited subjectivities, since only by following the “bring me water order”, without any concoctions and supplements I can exercise my free will to the effect of dovetailing myself with the merciful Supersoul, the Guru within!
jagaddartadasa says:
“contrived from a managerial letter written by one particularly motivated individual on the July 9 of 1977”
If it is as YOU say above why did Prabhupada sign it, thus authorizing the above document, further more, requesting it be sent to ALL TP’s and GBC’s?
bhaá¹á¹a kahe,-gurura ÄjñÄ haya balavÄn
guru-ÄjñÄ nÄ laá¹…ghiye, Å›Ästra-pramÄṇa
TRANSLATION
SÄrvabhauma Bhaá¹á¹ÄcÄrya said, “The order of the spiritual master is very strong and cannot be disobeyed. That is the injunction of the Å›Ästras, the revealed scriptures.
Madhya 10.145
jagaddartadasa has a problem with Prabhupada’s signed directive sent to all TP’s and GBC’s due to his misconception that it was written by “one particularly motivated individual.” YET he has NO problem with Prabhupada’s books which have been re-written by another “particularly motivated individual.” Further he ends his rant by saying, “I am just trying to be sane” !?
Dear jagaddarta prabhu.
I think it is unreasonable to expect a person to find just one quote to prove anything from Srila Prabhupada’s books. It is always better to prove a case by producing more quotes to substantiate a conclusion.
I think you are wrong to dismiss the Initiation in Absentia concept so easily as there is much substantive evidence for this conception.
First from Srimad Bhagavatam concerning Initiation itself as an important process we need to follow.
2.9.7 “…in order to receive the real massage of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession.”
And:
4.8.54 “One should take Initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in disciplic succession, who is authorised by His predecessor spiritual master.”
So obviously as pointed out clearly by Srila Prabhupada we all need Initiation from our Spiritual Master.
Then we find in Elevation to Krishna Consciousness pages 57-58 thus,
“There are two concepts of presence – physical presence and vibrational presence.The physical concept is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal. When we enjoy or relish the vibration of Krishna’s teachings in Bhagavada-gita, or when we chant Hare Krishna,we should know that by those vibrations He is immediately present. He is absolute, and because of this His vibration is just as important as physical presence. When we feel separation from Krishna or the Spiritual master, we should just try to remember their words of Instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation.
Such association with Krishna or the Spiritual master should be association by vibration, not physical presence. That is real association. We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krishna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God, so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krishna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krishna immediately by sound vibration;therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krishna and of the Spiritual Master – then we will feel happy and won’t feel separation.”
Caitanya Charitamrta 1.35
“If there is no chance to serve the Spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve Him by remembering His Instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instuctions and the spiritual master Himself. In His absence therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.”
Srila Prabhupada Himself is not different from His instructions and His instructions on His absence are clear for the disciples.
When you speak of non physically present you have tied that up with the words “non-manifest” which is the wrong conception of the presence of the Spiritual master. His presence is measured in two ways as indicated by Srila Prabhupada, – physically present, which is temporary and vibrationally present, which is eternal, both are valid conceptions of the presence of the Spiritual Master and Krishna.
Why do we need Initiation ?
Because Srila Prabhupada instructs us in S.Bhagavatam 2.9.7 and 4.8.54.
The rittvik supporters are not trying to be “better” as you term it but just trying to put Srila Prabhupadas version as they see it. I am not a rittvik per se but i do empathise with the idea of Initiation in Absentia. Otherwise we run the risk of foolishly discriminating between the Diksha Guru, the Shiksa Guru and the Supreme Lord, which is offensive in the discharge of devotional service.(CC 1.47) your servant dusyanta dasa.
Dear July 9, what a name:)
Srila Prabhupada signed the letter, this is enough for me, You prabhu/mataji(?) want me to speculate on pure devotee? No, thank You! TKG was nevertheless very busy working with his friends on their scam, probably included poisoning of the very Acarya Himself. So what is the problem?
Dear Dushyanta Prabhu, thank You so much for very nice answer, perhaps so nice because You are not a ritvik:)? Still, finding You explanation very nice and sastric, I don’t see any proof for the formal diksha ceremony in absentia, I am sorry, but there are many of us, who don’t see it right to demand and imagine such form of approaching the externally manifested/yet nonmanifested at present manifestation of Lord Nityananda, since lack of spiritual vision and realization, and so we reject the formal proposal as apasiddhantic.
I don’t want to offend the prabhus, who are doing this, but I have made my choice! Generally no one is going to win such debates, no one be benefitted here, except those who rather avoid uncertain and unproven and not clear experiments. With kind of unpleasant feeling, but I have to say it, the ritviks are not honest, when they fight for their course, like for example now with a little mouse like myself, they still should honestly say to what ritvik camp, or fraction, or even subfraction they belong, why, and on what plea do they reject their others ritvik opponents, and how all this is fitting and canvassing the alleged “final orderâ€?
What a final order is this, when his followers are already so much divided about it?! How you can propose to all the humanity such already failed attempt to allegedly solve all their/our problems? Why just not to follow the Acarya, listen from Him, best possible non stop, and then go out and preach it to others, perform sankirtan, and so on. Everything is in the books, and there is nothing explained about us taking formal diksa from a departed Acarya, or master.
y.s. Jd
Jaggadharta’s “living guru” idea is akin to the College of Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church who have the identical living guru — Pope ideology. Papalists. Jaggadharta says we need to worship a living body.
According Jagaddharta, since he refuses to name his living guru, one should simply wear the uniform of a messiah, imitate the actual messiah or pure devotee and the uniform would show this guru candidate what to do.
In sum, Jagaddharta thinks that if the hospital’s toilet cleaning janitor puts on a brain surgeon’s uniform, then that janitor will automatically be transformed to be as qualified as the hospital’s doctorate of brain surgery.
The surgeon’s uniform will show the janitor — how to be a brain surgeon. Small children sometimes dress-up as doctors, cowboys, police, and so on, but they know they are merely play acting and they are not really doctors, cowboys, police and so on? And yet rather amazingly, Jagaddharta is telling to wear the uniform of the pure acarya, and the uniform will show them what to do.
Jagaddharta never learned what every kindergarten child knows: wearing the uniform does — not — make one qualified to wear that uniform?
And when having guru troubles with all those meanwhile known deviations, e.g. failing to act, inactiveness, effortlessness, dormancy etc etc Jagaddharta tells them: there is only one thing to do, go back and sit on the guru seat, wear the guru uniform and keep up your cheap guru imitation project.
Thus, neophytes wearing the acarya uniform — does not work, and this was never taught by Prabhupada. Prabhupada was fully against neophytes posing as realized acarya.
So far Jagaddharta’s bogus gurus are often seen wearing expensive silken robes, Rolex watches, and so on and so forth, since they still figure that their fancy dress will make them the next acarya — who has to be worshiped like “as good as God”.
There is always big big talk about living guru. When it comes to practical things like how to appoint a full-fledged diksa-guru, it’s getting weird, very weird.
Guru is not established by votes, says Srila Prabhupada. “The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year.”
This is Jagaddharta’s conclusion after having read Prabhupada’s books, acharyas are neophytes who might fall down and there is nothing wrong with that?
Guess Jagaddharta hasn’t carefully read or hasn’t read anything at all, should start his studies all over?
Btw this bogus “living guru” concoction has killed Prabhupada philosophically as well.
Respected Cintamani Mataji thank You for the very nice and spiritually encouraging letter. But still, by the way, could You answer one question,from what ritivk group are you comming? And being from some ritivk group, what makes your group or fractions members so sure about being the right ritviks? How are you clear and finally final about your alleged “final order”discharge as the whole ritivk rebellion? What “final” conclusion in regard to the “final order” do you follow, and on what plea you consider it final?! Why one ritivk das from Montreal says to his ritvik followers (disicples?)though he himself took diksa from one rivik sannyasi, still living by the way, nonetheless in his opinion for today ther are no qulified ritvik acaryas for now!!!(?) His siksa follower (SIC!) told me this revelation 2 weeks ago.
Is this what you call parampara, unbroken chain of disciplic succesion?:) A little confusing isn’t it?
What You tell the newcommers? You confuse the people with you lies and speculations, of course you mix all of it with the right path of “acaryopasanamâ€, or the bhagavad viddihi path, as per SB 1.2.18, but than your fallible multiply versions of the addition/s in the form and perspective of the unprecedented direct formal diksha on demand via ritvik in absentia make it even worse, to some extend of course, THAN the enforcement of immidiate need for diksa from the “living guru†pushers camp by some other Vaishnava sects, while we all are in a difficult time period, when the Acaryas have chosen not to be directly visible to our dull eyes.
y.s. Jd
Since you are defeated in answering who is your living guru you attempt to change topic to get out of a tight spot. “What camp of ritviks do you belong?” There might be minor differences, main factor all ritviks agree is that Prabhupada is alive.
Since this is clearly not your realization all ritvik camps conjointly wish you good luck.
Prabhupada is the current link why you talk of broken chain?
Prabhupada explained everything how initiation ceremonies are conducted in his absence:
“Enclosed please find one copy of Gayatri mantra and one sacred thread duly chanted on for your wife, Mrganetri dasi. Hold a fire yajna and give her Gayatri mantra. Rupanuga has a tape of me reciting Gayatri mantra, so you can get this from him. One thing is that the tape should be heard through earphones into the right ear.”
ys
cd
Hare Krishna Prabhujis,
this dialogue above is a big help for people like me who are viewing both camps with reverence and suspicion. But these dialogues are necessary for people to make a conscious decision. As Prabhupada said do not surrender your intelligence but surrender through your intelligence.
A big hari bol to all and Jai Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krishna dear and respected Nilesh Dalal Prabhu! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! How nice you can use the content of the whole discussion to make your own independent and thoughtful view about all this issues. I hope one day we can hear and learn more from You about the results of the very good approach You pursuit, thus following and glorifying Srila Prabhupada at the same time, no doubt!
y.s. Jd
Hare Krishna! AGTSP! PAMHO!
I have no guru Cintamani mataji, he blooped, and since I realized what a far more than merely “zonal” rascal he was, I rejected Him. Nevertheless he gave me the name in front of Krishna deity, so I keept it, since the “das” in the name is what still counts. It was by the way only harinam initiation anyway. You may call me any name you want mataji! I am no “living guru” proponent, since for my understanding there is neither no such a thing as “dead guru” to counterpart it. This, a bit to fanatical, for me at least, shibboleth “Prabhupada is alive” which you vawe in fron of me mataji is a kind sahajiya addition also, since He, Srila Prabhupada never was/is death, or was death before, so how than Srila Prabhupada may be now in some extraordinaire distiguished way “alive”? He is certainly no more alive, than He was before! Sri Guru is certaonly eternal, and we learn it from Sastra. Of course we could start to talk about the very feeling of separation issue, etc., but it is far to high for me. It is also to high for me to imagine Him to be “alive” in such and realized by me way, that I could hear Him saying possible “no” when I demand diksa from Him now, when He, Srila Prabhupada obviously decided to be not phisically present in front of my blind eyes. Once having prema I would loved to pay my debts, if it is possible at all, to Srila Prabhupada and beg Him for initiation, if I would find bona fide hint, supported by guru, sastra and sadhu, to justify such sentiment (to check it’s bonafides)).
And other point. Who amongst you decided what means “minor differences” in regard to the “Final Order”, the allegedly final instance of/for the so called ritivks proponents? To me, whoever he was,logically he must be greater and more “final” than the “Final order” itself, and it seems that You ritivks have allready 3,4, or 5 final Finalists of the “Final order” Super League, but as you said there is no problem for you, maybe since finally “all is one anyway”? Isn’t it? On the very high level of your realization everything finally becomes one again! Thank you for the good now, for all your love and compassion. I am certainly not able to help you, I never tried anyway, I just wanted to use my right and duty to check you, now I am satisfied. Thank You very much to all the respected participants of this exchange. Please forgive me my offences dear prabhus and respected mataji!
y.s.bhakta and das
Dear Jaggadarta prabhu,
Yes i think you must have overlooked the points that i made from the quotes from scripture. From the S.Bhagavatam quotes if you look carefully with an open mind you will see that Srila Prabhupada is directing the disciple to take Diksa&Initiation from the Spiritual master whom is coming in Disciplic Succession, whom is the Current Link and whom is Authorised by His predecessor Spiritual master.
So that is three considerations immediately.
Whom did Srila Prabhupada authorise to Initiate after Him in the Disciplic Succession, whom will be number 33 in the Disciplic Succession.
Whom now is the current link if not Srila Prabhupada?
You also overlooked the quote from Elevation to Krsna Consciousness for the proper definition of the presence of the Spiritual master, Diksa and Shiksa Gurus.
If you carefully study this passage on pages 57-58 Srila Prabhupada describes the real meaning of association with the Spiritual Master and touching the Spiritual master through His vibrational presence which Srila Prabhupada emphasises over physical presence.
If you think the temporary physical presence of the Spiritual Master can Initiate and the eternal vibrational presence Spiritual master can not Initiate then you have foolishly discriminated between them.
The same would be true for the Shiksa Guru. If you think you can accept a Shiksa Guru who is not physically present such as the Bhagavad Gita of Krsna acting in the role of Shiksa Guru then you have also made the discrimination between the Diksa Guru, Shiksa Guru and the Supreme Lord, which is an offense in the discharge of devotional service.
When we conceptualise the definition of the presence of the Spiritual Master no matter what phase of presence He is in we have to be in parallel with the definition of Srila Prabhupada otherwise it is just our opinion and not as it is.
In Elevation to Krsna Consciousness Srila Prabhupada defines clearly how the Spiritual Master, Diksa or Shiksa, are present. If you say that only the physically present Diksa Guru can Initiate and the vibrationally present Diksa Guru can not then you have to substantiate that conclusion.
I am substantiating that the Diksa Guru is present in two concepts from Scripture namely He is physically present temporarily and vibrationally present eternally.
Also your theory is fraught with many anomalies. If the Diksa Guru has to be physiclly present to Initiate then when He disappears He can not be a Diksa Guru because He is not physically present. He cant function as Diksa Guru without physical presence, so that exclusive theory of physical presence hits a dead end and is not applicable.
If the Diksa Guru functions as a Diksa Guru after He disappears as well as when He was physically present then the physically present theory does not work.
The Spiritual Master, Diksa and Shiksa, functions in two phases of presence as described in Elevation to Krsna Consciousness-physical presence and vibrational presence. If you could describe to the Vaisnavas how the Spiritual Master functions in Vibrational presence then that would help the cause of understanding dont you think? Rather than ignoring the points that are found in Elevation to Krsna Consciousnes by Srila Prabhupada dont we need to understand how the Spiritual Master functions in His eternal vibrational presence?
The point about the Initiation ceremonies are an entirely separate subject. We are talking about receiving the process of Diksa not Initiation ceremonies. your servant dusyanta dasa.
DEAR DUSHYANTA PRABHU!Thank you for the answer, I do appreciate your true kindness and generosity! Thank you!
You conclude your nice and well established explanation:”….The point about the Initiation ceremonies are an entirely separate subject. We are talking about receiving the process of Diksa not Initiation ceremonies.”
I want just for the sake of clarity mention, that I HAVE NOT a SINGLEST PROBLEM with your entire explanation PERTAINING generally TO THE INCOMPREHENCIBLE TRUTH FROM SB.1.2.18 about the both Persons Bhagavata in delivering diksa and even delivering their disicples with or whitout the formal diksa involved!!!I do not have even a problem with the formal diksa initiation via ritvik, once proven Srila Prabhupada wanted it really to go on for the future. Simple questions nevertheless, still not answered: How a system which Prabhupada settled, no doubt about it(!), can go on without the vital parts of the whole very complex system itself (Prabhupada Temples, where committed and favorable to the idea TP serve nicely, while executing the role of the local siksa guru, the senior devotees in similar role of local siksha gurus, the whole multiplied sadhana programs, and services, and so much more the divine master gave to us, which all is gone now??! The system wasn’t just formal initiation program, initiation via ritvik was just it’s formal appreciation, where the eternal guru-cela bound, established via multiplied energies of the Acarya and the service attitude of a disciple was thus enshrined in the very act itself. Who and why decides how the system may be adjusted to completely changed situation after real ISKCON is in fact gone?! Why and how came, that the ritivk proponents prabhus promote multiply versions and explanations about their allegedly “final Order” understanding? For example Madhudvisha pabhu completely smashed the IRM and Krishna Kant idea that allegedly Srila Prabhupada did not wanted His disciples to become gurus! How, who and why decides that this vital and eternal instruction of the greatest Bhakta Avatara is/is not important or given/not given? To me it looks like at least some of You ritviks must be insane (?) And by the way, to be clear I see Prabhupada’s constant wish and appeal that His disciples become gurus! I do belive that some of them will soon do it, no matter how you fight against this order! And some further questions, why the ritivk prabhus do implement such contrived and new/different/privat versions? Are the versions “human made”? Yes or not? I can repeat it many times, and you simply don’t care to answer, which make me alert prabhus, since either you don’t know, or you don’t care, thus in both cases you are not fit to be masters ((sic!), therefore it is better if we do not follow such proven to be immature, human born ideas pertainig, once more, to THE FORMAL DIKSA in absentia which thus YOU INFLICT them upon us with similar MUST notion, as the ‘LIVING GURU’ IDEA PUSHERS DO with their “living guru” agenda!:)
y.s.Jd
Thanks Jagaddarta, but your questions are already answered, why you constantly repeat what is already answered?
The order that all six billion earthlings should become guru refers to siksha guru. It is along proven that Srila Prabhupada had never authorised his succession as the diksha guru of ISKCON. Rather he had authorised his disciples to act as gurus in the same manner as they were encouraged to do whilst Srila Prabhupada was physically present – by preaching and acting as siksha gurus. Srila Prabhupada uses these quotes to refer specifically to becoming siksha (instructing) guru.
Again, there might be some minor differences among the ritviks, but this is of no importance in this topic.
Cintamani Mataji, don’t let your anger inflict upon you and put in writing such nasty, sarcastic and irresponsible, childisch comments, like; “…The order that all six billion earthlings should become guru refers to siksha guru.” How will you refer this numbers to the “sa mahatma sudurlabha” statement of Lord Krishna! How will you refer it to Srila Prabhupada who never claimed or suggested that the whole world population is able to accept and follow the strict rules of Krishna consciousness, He rather said that if gradually about 10 % of the population become purely Krishna conscious than the worlds atmosphere will turne completely spiritual! And no, my questions are not at all answered, you don’t even try to answer them you only constantly repeat “minor diferences”. I say they are major, otherwise why are they at all taking place for over 20 years now?! Nothing by the way is minor if refers to the instructions of the infallible master, especially coursing multiplied versions and thus certainly warping and diluting them. Minor is here rather your feeling of truthfulness, since you obviously don’t care about the “final Order”, what you care is your “final ordeal”, which you may inflict upon those who are honest and inquisitive, not fanatical and careless. Allegdly following Prabhupada, under the imagined banners of the “final order” you are spreading nescience, and the visible proof to it is your lies, unwillingness, inability and disregard to reasonable questions and doubts of your brothers, which itself is against the principles of spiritual morality, freedom of will, rights and duities of a disciple and his principal respectively. You do the same nasty thing as the Fiskconitis do, you try hard to intimidate people, scare them under the plea not to commit an offence you curb down their freedom and intelligence, you prevent them from listening to the caitya guru, who works through the intelligence for their sake and wellfare, especially when one is inquisitive and honest. Thus you push your nosense ideas. I don’t care anymore about your fraudulent and perverted, dishonest logic.
y.s. Jd
Thanks Jagaddarta for being concerned about the right conclusion of Lord Krishna’s parampara system.
Why don’t you visit ISKCON Bangalore, there are 20.000 visitors every single day, 1.3 mio plates of Prasadam distributed every single day. So there is no time to fight with others.
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=17299
Or as Prabhupada puts it: “Now it is your business to see which is glow worm light and which is sunlight.
That is your business.”
Right, Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita, sa mahatma sudurlabha, however as you know, we live now in Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement. In Caitanya Caritamrita we find, everyone, all, human society in toto. This is Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement, it means all.
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu didn’t say that just one person would be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, “You all become guru. But become gurus the way I am saying you to be. Then the movement will spread around the world.”
Prabhupada: “[…] Amara ajiaya guru haia tara ei deca [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. You all become guru. How can I become guru? I have no education. I have no knowledge. No, you haven’t got to acquire all these things. That is already… Yare dekha tare kaha. Finished. So I never tried to become a scholar. But I tried, whatever is spoken by Krishna, deliver. That’s all. And that is guru….”
“Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krishna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.”
“[…] The Krishna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma.”
So the order to become guru means to become siksha guru and enlighten all. Since Lord Caitanya’s movement of chanting the Holy Name is called Sankirtan movement, san=together, there is no question of splitting into multiple competing camps who fight with each other over properties.
Again thanks for bringing up your concern about genuine guru tattva!
ys
cd
Hare Krishna dear devotees.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
PAMHO.
You can be a preacher, if you are a brahmana, if you are a spiritual master of the society and the master of your senses, some thing that is not very cheap. But when you preach to meat-eaters, drinkers, gamblers, psychopaths, and sexists; saying to them: “We are brothers in Prabhupad!†Then at the first opportunity, they will steep over you arguing: “Aren’t we are brothers in Prabhupad?†One thing is to see the bullfight and another thing is bullfighting. You can not say: “I have the magic wand of the four principles and 16 rounds and I will touch you, now you are a devotee.†In this way the temple can became another circus like today’s IS-CON. Srila Prabhupada, because of the lack of time, gave sannyas order to many demons as a hope for the future, and we can see the answer.
Best regards.
Your servant
Dasanudas.
Furthermore, here is what “one particularly motivated individual†had to say regarding Srila Prabhupada’s July 9th directive.
“These 11 persons were named by Srila Prabhupada in the beginning of July, 1977, in Vrndavana in the back garden of his house. These names were dictated to me as I was serving as his secretary, and now he had me write a letter to all the GBC’s and Temple Presidents which he also signed as approved on the 9th of July listing their names and defining their function.” (TKG’s Letter to Upananda Das, 13/12/78)
This quote buries the nonsense, “but it was TKG’s letter prabhuâ€.
Very good analysis from the IRM. Why don’t you have a link to their website since you have other ritvik websites listed?