Prabhupada Vision, 6 May, India — Having read many articles on your website I fear what is to become of us if the mentality of the devotees who you post on your site becomes prominent in ISKCON. While you and others may not agree with the present guru system in ISKCON it is working and to remove it will only cause chaos within our already splintered society.
The ritvik system is not really a threat to my Guru Maharaja for even if ISKCON removed the system Gurudev will be automatically a ritvik guru and we will all be still his disciples, would we not? Admittedly we will no longer be his diksa disciples but certainly his siksa disciples. To us it makes no difference at all.
No matter ISKCON Guru or Ritvik Guru it is all semantics as our Guru Maharaja will still be an advanced soul who is able to deliver us from the clutches of this material world.
I think ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada is enlightened enough to be able to accommodate all of our ideas. The existing system of initiation along with the ritvik system will be no problem at all so long as the ISKCON institution will be in control.
In this way the devotees will have a choice who to take shelter from. Some may choose to take shelter directly from Srila Prabhupada and others will choose to take shelter of the devotees who have become pure out of Srila Prabhupada’s direct disciples like my Gurudev. This is a system that will work if it is moderated by ISKCON.
There is no need for a separatist mood in ISKCON, we need to all work together to push on the Sankirtan Movement of Lord Caitanya.
Tulasi devi dasi
So, Tulasi Devi Dasi, we are keen to know how is your guru maharaj going to deliver you, your godbrothers and godsisters from the clutches of this material world?
“..others will choose to take shelter of the devotees who have become pure out of Srila Prabhupada’s direct disciples like my Gurudev.”
We had, have very advanced, very senior, very big and very direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada starting with some who became the zonal quack gurus beginning with Kritananda Swami who loves to have small children in his bed for sex supplied by his ignorant disciples. Next Bavananda with the title goswami who loves to have sex with young boys and men probably his own disciples etc. etc. etc. We understand this Bavananda is still hanging around in Mayapur Dham courtesy of the not so intelligent gbc. We wonder who are the young boys and men currently in his harem.
So, who is this gurudev of yours who has become pure through the direct diciples
of Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsishna.
I loved reading this article by Tulasi devi dasi and was intrigued who is her Guru maharaja.I have been in iskcon for over 30years and have not actually met a “Guru maharaja” who is actually able to deliver the process of Diksa or who is liberated from the material energy.
But the most intriguing point that Tulasi devi dasi made for me was the one about the “iskcon system” the iskcon guru system.What is that and where did it come from and more importantly whom authorised this system to make it bona fide?
The only reason the “ritvik” system is mentioned by any devotee since 1977 is because it is authorised by Srila Prabhupada in a letter and He actually used the rittvik system Himself when He was physically present.
So Tulasi devi dasi please could you let me know how ,why where and whom did the “Iskcon system” that you quoted become authorised .Probably a good idea to corroborate your evidence with some scriptural evidence , as well as from Guru and Sadhu.Also i would like to see some precedents to illustrate the case for the “Iskcon system”, how it was implemented ,maybe some historical evidence as well.
And also if these Iskcon Gurus who are supposed to be “continuing the parampara” , how these Gurus can flip flop from Diksa Guru to Rittvik Guru as if by pushing a button.And where on earth did you find the term “Rittvik Guru”?And what does that term mean?
In the July 9th letter the term is phrased as “rittvik”-representative of the acharya,for the purpose of performing initiations,both first and second initiation.
In other words the “rittvik” is neither a Guru nor awarding Diksa as you have inferred in you article.
Also in Vrindavana on May 28th conversation H H Tamala krishna Goswami poses the question to Srila Prabhupada “Is that called “rittvik acharya” ? “To which Srila Prabhupada replied ; Rittvik. Yes.
So Srila Prabhupada did not agree with Tamalakrishna that the term rittvik could be tied to acharya or guru but was just “rittvik” on its own.
Rittvik means the representative of Srila Prabhupada in the context of Iskcon.
Your article,Tulasi devi dasi ,continues with many assumptions and misconceptions and illustrates that you have not really researched the issue concerning “rittvik” very comprehensively or you have accepted what your “Gurumaharaja” has led you to believe concerning the issue of “rittvik”.There has been much negative biasness against the “rittvik” issue from the leaders of Iskcon past and present and probably will continue to mis represent the issue.It is in their interests to mis-represent the issue,let us not also be naive about that,we are now in 2011 not 1977 and alot of water has passed under the bridge since the hedonistic days of zonal acharyanism illusions.
But to be truly unified in Iskcon and to push on Lord Chaitanyas Sankirtana movement we can all come together under Iskcon’s founder and Iskcon’s Acharya ,Srila Prabhupada.What can an Iskcon Guru’s physical presence offer any one of us that Srila Prabhupada can not?
your servant, Dusyanta dasa, uk.
@Tulasi devi dasi-
Srila Prabhupada is certainly ‘enlightened enough’, however ex-GBC Chairman, Ravindra Svarupa prabhu, on 29/1/1999 stated in his essay “ISKCON and Varnashrama Dharma: A Mission Unfulfilled”
Most people would agree with Ravindra Svarupa’s assessment.
Now as an experiment, I suggest you ‘walk the talk’ and get the GBC to implement your suggestion by way of, “accommodate all of our ideas.”
Please keep us posted as to how you are progressing.
Dearest Tulsi Devi dasi et al; Please accept our well wishes in your desire for Vaisnava harmony. That is very nice thinking. Kindly hear me out in this regards.
This idea of harmony is presented for some years now, and is the theme of our website Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON; ie Srila Prabhupada-centred harmony.
We have some 175 members, mostly whom support our main theme, many of whom are sympathetic but not convinced ; Srila Prabhupada’ is diksa guru for us forever, and we intend to expand his influence and continue to do so to our best ability so long as we breathe. But we have no objection to any other actually qualified Vaisnava initiating gurus, from within our direct Godbrother ranks or otherwise, but they are not allowed to preach in our Srila Prabhupada’s temples, nor reside therein. Otherwise, why should we reject other Mahabhagavata’s? They are just not allowed to occupy Prabhupada’s temples, etc.
Otherwise, we continue with Srila Prabhupada’s given system of diksa as his disciples by temple presidents and other recognized Prabhupada disciples recommending others and overseeing their training to the degree possible and mutually desired, with the aim of fulfilling Srila Prabhupada’s instructions in these regards, and delivering the fallen souls into the loving embrace of his service.
However, this idea has received mixed reception by those with more polarized agendas. I am also convinced that outside influences are controlling Iskcon, the usurper Iskcocn, and thus it will not be possible to allow these poisoners and deviants to control Srila Prabhupada’s temples in any way shape or fashion. Your thieves’ association is not attractive to us, you can keep your stolen buildings, but you will very soon lose them anyway, I am predicting for you now. Best to surrender to Srila Prabhupada, not to persons of questionable intent and character. Pamdo.
Tamoharadasa says:
The above is contradictory and nonsense.
Tamoharadasa makes 5 points as numbered above:
1) Is correct
2) Contradicts 1). Also it is a deviant suggestion – as Prabhupada has not authorized Tamohara’s “direct Godbrother ranks or otherwise” – to initiate.
3) Is correct, as Prabhupada’s standard was only his disciples were permitted to preach in his temples. Those who jump into Prabhupada’s seat without authority to do so, cannot be considered disciples of Prabhupada. (disciple means follower)
4) Even Mahabhagavata’s will be happy to follow Prabhupada’s instructions regarding how he wanted initiations to continue within ISKCON.
Tamohara dasa has the misconception that a Mahabhagavata will want to jump into the guru seat, because in
5) he assumes this and also suggests such a Mahabhagavata would “occupy Prabhupada’s temples”. I guess he means to say dominate or control, rather than occupy, just as in ISKCON. I humbly suggest to Tamohara dasa that a Mahabhagavata could be washing the pots, rather than posing as some big shot guru.
One thing Tamohara dasa has in common with ISKCON, Narayana Maharaja and Gaura Govinda Maharaja societies is that they all tend to ignore statements such as the following, from Prabhupada which point out that aside from the qualification (Mahabhagavata). Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific authorization from the predecessor acarya is also essential before anyone can be a diksa guru:
Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only become a diksa guru when both the qualification and authorization are in place. Srila Prabhupada had not authorized any such gurus, nor had he stated that any of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather, just prior to July 9th, (ROOM CONVERSATION – APRIL 22, 1977, BOMBAY) he agreed that they were still ‘conditioned souls‘, and that vigilance was essential lest persons pose themselves as guru.
It would be less polluting to cyberspace if Tamohara dasa would back-up any points he makes with scriptural authority.
Dear July; I am not replying to your incorrect statements, as you do not listen to the replies even when given.
Dear Tamohara das Prabhu,
Please accept my most humble obeisances.Can you please make me understand what this comment of yours means?
Your servant,
Santosh