BY: VIDURA DAS
July 13 2011, INDIA — — Haribol Madhudvisa Prabhu and Gadadhara Prabhu. I feel that the points made in my previous email were not properly addressed if addressed at all. If you want to claim that there can be another initiating Diksa Guru under the system that Srila Prabhupada has set up for Iskcon, then please address those points. I have pasted them again below.
If the claim that Srila Prabhupada authorized Diksa Guru’s cannot some how be proven but rather stated over and over emphatically then it is 100% sentiment and also speculation at that. It seems that the real fanatic preachers are those without proof from Srila Prabhupada of their claims that He authorized any Diksa Guru’s to begin with.
Srila Prabhupada cannot be put in the same category of just any pure devotee. The fact is that Srila Prabhupada is the Acarya of our time. There may be many pure devotee’s, there may be none. That is not to say that Srila Prabhupada wasn’t “strong” enough to make one. That’s like saying: “since I am the fool that I am, and since I come from Lord Krsna, He must lack some strength.” Certainly that argument is highly offensive especially when applied to Srila Prabhupada. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur made only one pure devotee that we know of (Srila Prabhupada). Is that to say His Divine Grace was some how lacking in “strength”? This is nonsense speculation.
A pure devotee can become an Acarya just as a man can become A judge. The man, before becoming a judge must first be qualified in quality by knowing the law books and possessing the knowledge and ability. Then, after all that, before the man can actually be known as a judge, he must be duly appointed by the law. To simply state that a man is a judge just because he has the qualification is not sufficient. One must be authorized by the predecessor spiritual master. This is the final step in the process. It cannot be skipped. I may possess all of the qualities of a judge, I may know the law books like the back of my hand, but still, I am not a judge without being appointed by the law.
I would also like to thank Mahesh Prabhu for providing a nice quote regarding this matter. Here it is again:
“Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.“
With that said, please show me proof where Srila Prabhupada appoints anyone to become Diksa Guru.
Ys, Vidura Das
Hare Krsna vidura prabhu.
If Srila Prabhupada appointed a Diksa Guru why would there be written or verbal proof?
And if He “appointed” then surely the person could not be a Diksa Guru.Diksa Gurus are not “appointed” they are authorised by the predecessor Spiritual master.Appointment means an official type job,as in July9th letter “>>>>>soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as “rittik”-representative of the acharya.”
So i dont think we would find this type of evidence concerning the Diksa Guru.maybe another question would be more appropriate?
your servant dusyanta dasa
Instant proof that the authorization process is not quite so mechanistic as you seem to think; Did Srila Prabhupada ever show a letter of authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada? Did he ever mention being directly deputed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to act as diksa guru for the Westerners ? Certainly not the former, the latter perhaps some quote to that effect that can be culled? That being the case, then your case is misgiven. Some legalistic written authorization is certainly not strictly required, example set. No need to reply that Srila Prabhupada is special, we all know that.
@ Tamoharadasa on 14. July 2011 at 11:43 pm said:
“Did Srila Prabhupada ever show a letter of authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada?”
No, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta never proclaimed …
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
“…just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: “Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 7/11/72)
“Sometimes they say, “Prabhupada said it.” More misleading. Yes.” (Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
“Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 9/5/75)
If Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had said any of the above, your question would be valid.
Tamoharadasa said:
“Did he ever mention being directly deputed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to act as diksa guru for the Westerners ?”
“deputed”
de·pute
[duh-pyoot] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -put·ed, -put·ing.
1. to appoint as one’s substitute, representative, or agent.
2. to assign (authority, a function, etc.) to a deputy.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deputed)
No, Srila Prabhupada was not a deputy, he was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s authorized successor.
Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: What is that?
Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krishna Consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.
Indian man: Did it…
Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)
For most, a secret whisper (Gaur Govinda’s claim) is lacking.
I don’t see how july 9th’s top of his reply quotes have any relevance? So , at this point, we still have no written authorization. As I said, there is no written authorization. But July’s next quotes are helpful; Srila Prabhupada said Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada ordered him.
Similarly then, the hard ritivks should not criticize Gour Govinda Swami for saying the exact same thing as SP said ; no written authorization, but assurance of spoken authorization. There should be no double standards. Unless you can show a written authorization, case closed. Authorization comes from spiritual master to disciple, and may not be in a form that is visible to any others.
Tamoharadasa on 15. July 2011 at 7:08 pm said:
“I don’t see how july 9th’s top of his reply quotes have any relevance?”
Your question is ambiguous – but I think you fail to see the relevance to the quotes.
Take the first quote;
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
This means what it says, the point is that IF Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had said the same, then Srila Prabhupada would be required to show some WRITTEN authorization.
Gour Govinda Swami has only a secret whisper for his claim to authorization, yet Prabhupada says ..
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
Go figure.
“Gour Govinda Swami has only a secret whisper for his claim to authorization, yet Prabhupada says ..”
We have all agreed long ago that proper authorization is required to accept the role of diksa guru in our sampradaya. We have established that it need not be written, indeed, it may be between the guru and qualified disiple only, and quite quietly done at that, as in Srila Prabhupada’s case. We have also agreed, i hope, that a double standard is not required.
So, there is no recording of Srila Prabhupada receiving authorization from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta either, but we accept his word, ( plus it is obvious ). He was miraculous as well.
Gour Govinda swami was given almost instant sannyasa by Srila Prabhupada, sent to Orissa alone with mrdanga and danda and books, where he was responsible to open temple, translate the books, and preach widely the cult. People begged for his diksa, i know, i was there to see. But he waited, accepting a role of insignificance, as instructed to him by Srila Prabhupada to always cooperate and remain in Iskcon. This he humbly did. He never deviated an inch from his strict sannyasa vows, no one ever questions this. He pointed out their kali chela status , the GBC, and was persecuted for it. He was miraculous, he is worshipped as a saint in Orissa now. He was in bhava prema, and attested to as such by Gaudiya maths, and talked directly to Gopal Deity. So he was qualified by all standards of such determining. But you say he is a liar.
I say it is envious persons who lie, not saints.
The idea of written authorization and other mechanistic means of authorization is defeated, and a direct example of misapplication of the ritivk instructions by neophytes in the hard ritivk camp is given. Those offenders of Srila Gour Govinda and Srila Prabhupada therfore, must pay obeisances and recant their misunderstandings henceforth, or be seen to be envious and truth-twisters.
Pamho. AGTSP.
Tamoharadasa on 16. July 2011 at 8:21 pm said:
“….We have established that it need not be written, ….”
Who is this “we” that you are referring to?
Otherwise what you say is generally true but with Srila Prabhupada we have a different standard whereby he has specifically stated;
“Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)”
This was in fact the standard in which Srila Prabhupada operated with every major decision. He put in writing, so to reduce the chances of misunderstanding.
Every acarya has certain different standards, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s disciples chanted 64 rounds, Srila Prabhupada requested his disciples to chant 16 rounds.
Do you call this double standards?
It is certainly different standards.
Tamoharadasa said:
“But you say he is a liar.”
No, I have not said such a thing. However due to the overpowering evidence I have presented I can appreciate how you have come to that conclusion.
What I do say is that he was not exactly liberal with the truth, was he?
Even TKG had his moments of forthright truthfulness ..
“Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus, he appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement for the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus. […] You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing were Prabhupada says: ‘I appoint these eleven as gurus’ it does not exist. Because he never appointed any gurus. This a myth.” (Tamala Krishna Goswami: Pyramid House Confession December 3rd 1980)
Nothing from H.H. Gour Govinda.
He supported the hoax and hoaxers.
Sure he may have called them a few names behind their backs, nothing in writing though.
This is so untrue! “He suppored the hoaxers???” And just how do you figure that? Gour Govinda once lay on the floor before the GayBC’s and invited them to beat him, as they otherwise were attacking him, has asked those who were faultess to come forward, none moved. He called them Kali chelas, said not one of them was qualified . I was there sitting in the room chanting japa with him as the GayBCs gave their classes and di not schedule him even.
Obviously you know nothing about him or the facts involved, but just are finding fault based on, WHAT ? Not historcal facts, that’s for sure. Are u kidding? They banned him from all over their GayBC planet! In the end, the GayBCs / GSM poisonned him in Mayapura ! this was predicted in advance by the prophet of Orissa, Actyutananda, many years ago, and Gopal Jiu Deity Himself lso told GGS, and he in turn told his disciple as they testified, before going to the fateful murder in Mayapura that year, said; Gopal told him he would not be returning from Mayapura.
So when you come to this standard, then you can criticize Gour Govinda Parmahamsa .
Get your basic facts straight before attacking maha-bhagavatas !!!
Hare Krishna,
Wow. “Bhaktisiddhanta made only one pure devotee”. That is one of the most offensive statements I’ve ever heard, and one Srila Prabhupada himself never made. How dare you call yourself a Vaishnava. Besides, are you that spiritually developed you can tell by yourself. I am not going to get involved in fighting, just start with Nectar of Devotion ( the Original, unedited edition ), Srimad Bhagavatam etc. Letters to still half–insane bhaktas don’t count. Ask Srila Prabhupad and Krishna to forgive you before you face the Sudarshan avenger of Vaishnava Aparadha. I am sure you have read what Sri Chaitanya has to say about that in Chaitanya Charitamrita. Ritvik or whatever, you do not need to insult both Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and his hundreds of devotees to make your case.Really, your remark takes the cake. All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.
“So my Guru Maharaja’s idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self-effulgent acarya would be automatically selected.”
Remember, all those disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja were right there. But still, they were not appointed to officiate as diksa-guru.
“But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, “Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?” They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it.”
Basically in Caitanya-lila these were all pure Vaishnavas. But to take up the office of diksa-guru only happens by deliberate authorization.
pamho agtACBSP,
the point is that we are still here to struggle while H.H.Gaura Govinda Maharaja without doubts is in the region of eternal bliss, who can say it is not true?
How many of us had the fortune to take birth in a respectful vaisnava family like H.H.Gaura Govinda Maharaja by worshiping the deity and chanting all night on Ekadasi day with his uncle since his childhood?
So it is better to not criticize a great soul, we just need to mind our spiritual journey which can end at any time therefore it is more worthy to glorify a great soul instead of criticizing because they are steady in krsna smaranam by realizing it as first necessity of live – especially for people not born in vaisnava family in this sinful kali yuga age.
Anyway we will get there if we cooperate altogether with the appointment of the real diksa guru Srila Prabhupada, who is waiting for us to awake to the non-dual and transcendental platform of blissful Krishna consciousness.
ys seva das
haribol
I don’t know why GGM is even brought up because we are Prabhupadanugas not Gour Govindanugas.
Because he is our pure devotee Godbrother, and some politically-motivated foolish persons have offended and lumped him in as a cheat like the Gaybcs, thus they try to support thier program that there will be no more pure devotees ever, which is quite ridiculous. There have been and are other pure devotees since Srila Prabhupada’;s departure, and as he has clearly said in the reference given by me below, any may take the legacy, He says that very clearly, but politicians squeeze out some conccoted idea instead.
The July 9 letter is under duress placed by the poisoners. Within, Srila Prabhupada said that others may be added as required, and Gurukrpa, Madhu Pandit and others who I trust have pointed out and there are so many supporting evidences that Srila Prabhupada also said no changes, to proceed as we have always done, whcih is what I strongly recommend, avoiding the concoction and aparadhi club.
Diksa is simple. devotees coopertively serve, elect a presdent or presidents, and the temple presidents recommend as we always did. Simple. All these envious persons Srila Prabhupada sypposedly àpponted`all fell down, so what is the value of their so-called appointment letter. Have you not seen the videos where Srila Prabhupada says tht he did not appoint any acaryas, please rewatch it. Why did Gaudiya Matha fail? – Srila Prabhupada’s explanation“ Youtube http://youtu.be/w7kHPV8AFTY .
There is no use going over and over points already proven; go do something..
But he was authorized a guru by the same GBC that reinstated Bhavananda. So he is intimately connected with the GBC you ridicule. This makes no sense. you ridicule the GBC that created your guru?
Can you please name this pure devotee you are referring to. I would like to know his name, I have friends that are looking for a pure devotee to take diksha from. what is this pure devotees name and where can i find him?
A maha bhagavata requires no “authorization” from a bogus Gaybc, and Srila Prabhupada gave GGS the service to stay in Iskon and thus try to help them to be good Vaisnavas. He never wanted to be part of their GBC club if you study GGS’s lectures, but he was obliged to do many services by dint of his devotion to Srila Prabhupada. You fault the Cleaner because there is dirt to clean ?? He worked hard to reform with mudhas you wouldnt have the courage to apporach, and you find fault ? Odd,
I also was given diksa and brahminical mantra by Godbrothers under SP’s authority, one of whom fell down badly, Jagadisha . So, you will fault me also, I am bad because my Godbrother who i took initiation through is bad? That is bogus philosophy. You are saying we are all no good, as we all took shelter of an organizatrion that went so awry? Thats is your position if you follow the reasonning, or rather, the lack thereof.
Re Pure devotees; we are surrounded by them. If you cannot see them, I certainly will not be introducing YOU. HK
Just what I thought you would say. You claim they are all around us, but you refuse to name even one. Why are you scared to name a pure devotee? I am proud to say that Srila Prabhupada is a pure devotee. I have no problem declaring he is a pure devotee. Why do you not name your pure devotee? you are not proud of his “pure” status and want to share that with everyone? This is your cheating. Just name one of the pure devotees you count as many around us. can you do this? no You will not. you just bluff like Rocana and everyone else.
SriMukunda dasa; In reply then as you insist; Basu Gopal Dasa, Yasodananada dasa, Utthamasloka dasa, Radha Govinda Swamini, Dusyanta Prabhu, Parvati DD, Citisakti DD, Urdhvaga Prabhu, Dharmaprana dasa Prabhu, Krsnadasa Kavirajana dasa Prabhu, etc. – list of hundreds, many many, you fault-finding person. You think all these pure devotees have been chanting Hare Krsna all their lives, surrendered everything, and they are neophytes ?? You have little faith, you insult Srila Prabhupada and his disciples by suggesting they are all fallen Kaliyuga chelas, the process doesn’t work, such Kali yuga thinking.
There is a difference between a pure devotee and a nitya siddha one giving diksa, but you do not have such an understanding. (GGS is also of the nitya siddha category, ie Mahabhagavata) That is your tactic; to dishonor rather than honor, it is beyond your capacity to understand their position at all, for you it is all black and white only, the mentality of a cultist and finder of flaws.
U are asking me if I am proud of Srila Prabhupada? I only have a website called Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON with two hundred Prabhupada disciples, mostly senior devotees with many years experience, who elected a temple administration etc and are initiating new disciples of Srila Prabhupada on his order. You are too much, Srimukunda, a professional fault finder it appears. Have you helped with any new initiates lately? Wouldn’t that be a much better way to channel all that pent-up anger and energy?
Name my pure devotee? Is this a board game, like Trivial Pursuit? Where do you get these weird ideas that people are like hiding acaryas under barrels or something, then ascribe the same odd thinking process to others?
Prabhu, get a grip, please. You are just attacking blindly and with no purpose to serve Srila Prabhupada, otherwise why are you attacking me? Why would I ever refer YOU personally to an advanced pure devotee, you with such an insulting attitude? I would be a fool, and that is not our siddhanta to bring envious persons to insult acaryas. That is why yourself, Pada, and all the other fools under your poisonous sway who attack and insult pure devotees such as Gour Govinda Swami ,all are ruined and go down very quickly. You will never have any success with such a program .
Anyone initiated by and following without compromise the instructions of the spiritual master is a pure devotee, but you are so envious, you will never accept that.
Srila Prabhupada , however, said that, “All my disciples are pure devotees.”.
You seem to have the idea that; there are no pure devotees, but suddenly one only appears and he is Diksa acarya, and no other pure devotees will ever again appear. I disagree 100%, Baba, that is not at all sastric nor historic.
Have a better day.
So you claim these are pure devotees? that is very poetic of you. But can you name that pure devotee diksha guru who is accepting disciples and can guide them back to Godhead? and that really is the point, who is your pure devotee living diksha guru right now? if you cannot name this living diksha pure devotee right now, then stop playing games with everyone’s intelligence. we are not foolish, like the one you feed that nonsense to.
Tamoguna Dasa is a big time Cyber-Bhakta! I see you whining all over the internet man your really doing some shit-talking seva like mad!
Kamsa took birth “in a respectful vaisnava family”.
So did Srila Prabhupada.
“By the mercy of the Guru even a dumb man can become a great speaker, and even a lame man can cross mountains.”
“All my disciples will take the legacy. If you want, you can also take it. Sacrifice everything. I, one, may soon pass away. But they are hundreds, and this movement will increase. It is not that I give an order, ‘Here is the next leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership is the leader…. All of my disciples are leaders, as much as they follow purely. If you want to follow, you can also lead. But you don’t want to follow. Leader means one who is a first class disciple. Evam param parapraptam. One who is following is perfect.”
(Srila Prabhupada, Back to Godhead magazine, Vol. 13, No. 1-2)
When Srila Prabhupada was asked specifically about initiations in the future when he was no longer with us, he did not mention any of the letters or conversations mentioned by the SAC. He did not say he had given any standing written and oral instructions for all of his disciples to become guru. This idea is imaginary. Srila Prabhupada gave a specific answer ” I will appoint some of you to be officiating-acaryas….(rtviks?)…Yes” This was his answer. Not that he had already given standing orders. And no one asked Srila Prabhupada about all his written and oral instructions authorizing his disciples to become gurus, because there weren’t any. This is all fantasy. There was a specific question and he gave a specific answer, and he put that answer in writting and it is still ignored by those who want to be gurus and those guru supporters (who also want to be guru one day)
Imagine if you will, a snow-flake-like round mandala. At the center, all points are visible as extension from the essential core. The flower is One, yet it has distinctive petals. Now, transmorphing our simile; Srila Prabhupada as the center of a lotus-mandala representing the philosophical and practical positions and applications of all the devotees worldwide who have taken up the service of Si Krsna Caitanya Mahapabhu’s mission, in all their glorious diversity.
Let us stretch a little further; Imagine a world-wide set of temples of Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON, in which happy brahmanas study and elaborate on the teachings of our pure and powerful Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya, setting a global standard of excellence. The priests daily perform initiations, a baptism of fire, into the cult of eternal service to the perfect Masters, as revealed by the unquestionably perfectfully empowered universal Gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada. These scholarly devotees are fully conversant both with sastra and the spoken directives of Srila Prabhupada.
Sometimes, a devotee will display such fine Vaisnava qualities that many are attracted to his or her association, in fact refusing anything but to take diksa from this perfected devotee. With full blessings and initial support, such an individual and followers can open a center of their own, in which there are no restrictions from GBCs etc. Regularly, they are invited to take prasadam, join the kirtana, perhaps give a class or two for the edification of all the devotees. No one finds fault, no one plays politics, no one is banned, castigated, slandered, interrupted. But they must not , of coure, sit in Srila Prabhupada’s Temples to perform their Diksa services etc.
We have clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada left a ritvik system, same as we always practiced in Iskcon, and practical necessities of the times reveal the wisdom of these arrangements. At the same time, great devotees such as, we confidently suggest, HDG Gour Govinda Swami, or others, cannot be refused their natural pride of loving disciples, without whom carrrying out their broad preaching programs is impossible. Must there be a conflict?
From the vision of the center of our inner mandala, we see these two otherwise oppositional approaches fully harmonized. there is no incongruence, no opposition, when the mission of Srila Prabhupada is made the center. This harmonizing centrist position disposes of the entire mal-vision of seperateness.
What has been downgraded by calling it “soft ritvik” is actually the position of harmonizing the incongruent. This understanding, as best I have understood Srila Prabhupada’s desires, is the only understanding which takes everybody into account, in the absolute.
Hard ritvik may be troublesome, misleading, as it denies the natural appearance of great devotees, leading to difficult divorces, stolen property, and lengthy proceedings. An example is the splintering and fighting amongst some of the American Prabhupadanugas due to acceptance or reject-ance of Gour Govinda Swami, with consequent blasphemy and inter-factional rifting.
On the other hand, in Kali yuga, the many sannyasis etc. proving unequal to the task of guruship, reveals the cheating propensity in operation, with the results as we observe in Iskcon today.
Seeing from the eyepoint of the snow-flake branches, the other arms appear seperate. But the Prabhupada-centred hamonists’ position resolves all the issues. The branches are part and parcel of the purpose of the snowflake, same and different simultaneously. Seeming contradictions are resolved, and made harmonious again in serving Srila Prabhupada’s purposes. Therefore this position should be accepted and instituted immediately, before the whole she-bang gets buried further under life-blood-draining sectarianisms.
your soft and hard rtvik is nothing but concoction. Srila Prabhupada has given what we need. If you want to ignore his clear instructions that is your choice. but why try to talk me into following your example of disregarding Srila Prabhupada’s july 9th instruction? why would you be inclined to try to persuade me to ignore Srila Prabhupada’s clear instructions?
I am currently debating with a bunch of Gaura Govinda folks, and they are supporting the whole GBC gurus process. They even told me the GBC is doing a good job by spending $12,000,0000 (12m usd) suing us. I said — there are temples in the usa with rats on the altars, passing rat stools on the deity’s feet at night, because there is no money for upkeep, so — why spend 12m on lawyers when they should fix the diety in the ghetto problem, and they said no, the lawsuit is a good idea. So these GGM folks want ghettos for the deity and mansions for the lawyers, just like the GBC. What kind of teachings did they get from GGM if they think lawyers need mansions and deity needs to live in the ghettos? ys pd
Puranajana is as usual a cheat. What does the behavior of some current followers have to do with the purity of the spiritual master? On that same line of reasoning, we would have to fault Srila Prabhupada also for his devaint disciples. Puranajana knows there are camps of GS disciples just like there are camps of Srila Prabhupada’s followers. Some of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples ended up poisonning him. Do you Puranajana then suggest that Srila Prabhupada is at fault over the insanity of some of his followers? So why do you stretch so hard to find fault with GGS over some followers? Puranjana? You cant find any faults, so you try some other tactic to fault him indirectly. It is a double standard, a type of cheating manoever, unfortunately clearly outlining a severe unnatural envy of pure devotees.
Shaktipat Seer criticizes me? That’s a good thing! Sorry to take up your time from your magical tantric thyroid gland initiations to all the young ladies by ethernet. Haribol!
pamho prabhus agtACBSP, well with the advancement of this sinful age things will get even worse, deviant disciples who must be rectified is not the fault of GGS because even while GGS was physically present they used to break the law.
I witnessed in UK while GGS was giving morning class and he was telling to his disciples to not do it, then as you already know…. It is normal to make mistakes in this world until one gets liberated.
Prabhupada: “Every one of us, we commit mistake, we are illusioned, our senses are imperfect, and we have a tendency to cheat. This is four defects of conditioned life. But the liberated life they have no such conditions.”
As we can see RDS, GKG and BCS built big temples in India but the karma is not been all positive – they lost big amount of lakshmi, why? As Prabhupada says, this is the platform of conditoned life. But the liberated life there is no four defects of conditioned life.
Therefore it is said:
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari…. The uttama-adhikari, or highest devotee, is one who is very advanced in devotional service. An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness. According to Srila Rupa Gosvami, the association and service of such a maha-bhagavata, or perfect Vaishnava, are most desirable….”
In other words, this is the state of liberated life where these four defects of conditioned life are absent.
ys seva das
haribol
“IF ONE TAKES SANNYASA, ONE HAS TO TAKE SANNYASA FROM ANOTHER SANNYASI. THAT IS THE SYSTEM. JUST LIKE IF YOU WANT TO GET YOURSELF MARRIED, YOU HAVE TO CALL FOR A PRIEST. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH THE PRIEST’S PERSONAL OPINION. DO YOU FOLLOW? YES. HE MAY EXECUTE THE RULES AND REGULATION OF MARRIAGE CEREMONY, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE HAS TO AGREE WITH THE PRIEST’S OPINION, PERSONAL OPINION. THIS IS THE ANSWER. But when you accept a spiritual master, that is not allowed. Unless you cent percent agree with the spiritual master’s opinion or philosophy, there is no need of accepting a spiritual master. There is no need. Yes.” HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Herein, Srila Prabhupada explains that the ritvik or is functional, he is not your guru, his opinion may not agree with yours, but you are accepting Srila Prabhupada totally without argument when the priest perfoms an authorized diksa ceremony as Srila Prabhupada’s authorized representative. And there are criteria; one must be an elected representative and temple president and themslef properly initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. By this correct and unchanged criteria, we should have hundreds of authrozed ritvik representatives, not a handful of demigod ritvik Nu-Gooroos.
Similarly, GGS and all of us Godbrothers cannot be faulted because the priest may have been proven a fool later. Their role is functional, just as the Gay BC are functional relative to GGS and we the disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are not any authority at all when they deviate even an iota from Srila Prabhupada’s clear direction. One needn’t agree with their opinions to be among ISKCON devotees, as the spirirtual reality, being pure and eternal, is more than the external organizations, which can be corrupted.
Hare Krishna. AGTSP !
Let us stick with what Srila Prabhupada verifiably wanted. What he said he wanted on January 7, 1977 was for the leaders to suspend sannyasa because they are making a laughing stock out of that renounced order.
He said, since his followers are not fit for sannyasa they should start varnasrama, farm communities and so on, based on married householders. He said furthermore, those lusty sannyasa should just get married and get it over with. Instead, what happened is that the GBC never followed that direct order to suspend sannyasa. Nor do they even mention that order.
And all of the farms turned into ghost towns and we heard one of their farms sold the remaining cows for slaughter because there was no one there anymore. Where are the farms he ordered? Worse, what the GBC said one year later (January of 1978) was that: (a) Just after he had suspended sannyasa in January of 1977, then (b) What he ordered just a few months later, on May 28th of 1977, is that he wanted the SAME people unfit for sannyasa to be his acharya successors and Vishnupada’s “sum total of the demigods” messiahs?
Why would he say they are unfit for sannyasa, but fit to be worshiped as Krishna’s successors and acharyas? Srila Prabhupada had ordered “no more sannyasa,” then the GBC made hundreds of more sannyasa after 1978, and they even said these sannyasas are Vishnupada messiahs.
So they are not following what he said. And now the GBC spokesman simply says, gurus have illicit sex with men, women and children, to cover up their mistake of ignoring the order to suspend sannyasa, make farms, and get these lusty dogs married.
Worse, the “India advisor sector” like like Sridhara, Narayana, Gaura Govinda swamis, they all said — the GBC is right, that these people who are not fit for sannyasa are gurus, so that means, they did not follow the orders either. ys pd
“Practically none of the sannyasis in this age are bona fide.”
(SB 4.19.23p)
no fit for sannyas but fit to be worshipped as the sum total of the demigods? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Jiva Atma Prabhu reveals;
Why not do as Prabhupada instructs? :
Forbid sannyasa as a fashion, but maintain the sannyasa order for suitably qualified devotees “at the last stage of life.”
Lectures : General Lectures : Evening Lecture — Bhuvanesvara, January 23, 1977 : 770123LE.BHU :
Prabhupāda: …So to accept this position-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—is compulsory. It is not that one has to take sannyāsa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyāsa…”
Because; “…without this classification, the whole society will remain in chaotic condition… ”
These are Prabhupada’s instructions, reaffirmed again, more than four months after the January 7 quotes banning sannyasa in ISKCON; On May 13, 1977, Prabhupada makes his position on Varṇāśrama-dharma, including the sannyasa order abundantly clear:
“According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Varṇāśrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13].This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa.”
The moderator’s invitation reads- “Speak Your Mind”. Thank You.
Seeking to implement the administrative dictates of an institution’s preceptor is not incorrect, rather, under current conditions, simply out of step.
ISKCON has operated for the last thirty-five years under a shingle that reads “New Management”. It has been usurped and entrenched by a regime that flouts authority under the universal given- “possession is nine tenths the law”.
Demands to implement guidlines by reactionaries, no matter how well meaning, will never succeed unless steps are taken FIRST to invalidate the regime. This can only be achieved by legal proccess.
Better you gentlemen gather yourselves, energy and wits, to invest in a strong First Step strategy, or excessive web-dwelling and cyber conflict will deplete whatever you have to give, including civilty.
Right, Srila Prabhupada said (a) they are not fit for sannyasa so suspend sannyasa, and he said that in January of 1977, then in January of 1978 the GBC said 11 of them (i.e. those unqualified for sannyasa) are now Vishnupada acharyas. And GGM told me in person, he is “cooperating, tolerating and working with” these bogus GBC gurus. So they are NOT fit for sannyasa, but they ARE fit for acharya? This means GGM thinks, when one is not fit for sannyasa, one is fit to be worshipped as the Vishnupada acharya? This means GGM does not know what Vishnupada means, and more important, GGM directly defied the order to suspend sannyasa. Worse, GGM was voted in when they re-instated Bhavananda. What is a voted in guru? What is a zonal guru? How can those unfit for sannyasa be acharya? What is a reinstated guru? What is a suspended guru? GGM went along with all these hundreds of concocted guru species, but none of this is mentioned in the Vedas? ys pd
Pada; Srila Prabhupada told him to work with them. We make this point, many times here and there, but you never read anything, you cannot be reasonned with, you have blinders on, and try to blind others also.
Gour Govinda was about 55 years old when he took sannyasa. If you had actually read Srila Prabhupada’s instructions above, he told us all to take sannyasa in our advanced years! Please actually read it and follow Srila Prabhupada’s orders.
Where do you think GGS took sannyasa? It magically fell from the sky? SRILA PRABHUPADA personally gave him both initiations and sannyasa within a few months of each other, in Vrndavana, and told him to go to Orissa and start his mission there. So again, you are faulting Srila Prabhupada indirectly, as usual.
You say Srila Prabhupada said no more sannyasa, i show you proof that that is incorrect using more direct quotes more recent in time and thus sperceding the one you repeat over and over and over . But you do not accept Srila Prabhupada’s direct instructions ?? You say also GGS deviated taking sannyasa, but Srila Prabhupada personally gave him and did the ceremony. But you do not accept? Then you are more than Srila Prabhupada?
You are totally defeated as bogus, Pada, admit it that you are mistaken and a political mis-director in this matter, or be seen for a confounder rather than a truth sayer by the readers for themselves, as demonstrated above.
But you as usual just throw enough dirt hoping some of it will stick, and when placed in public view, that is troubling to all of us with any sense left.
You AGAIN try to blame GGS because ISKCON “gurus deviated”? Then answer my question already posed, do you blame Srila Prabhupada for his disciples deviating?
Your double standards are duplicitous in the extreme. By this same standard, GGS is faulted because he served Srila Prabhupada and stayed in Iskcon as ordered, and so you must agree that you, me, all Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are all deviants because we all of us were given our diksa via deviant ritivks. Because some persons deviate, you will blame everyone around them??Thats so silly, Pada. I showed you also that you needn’t agree with the priest’s opinions, that also directly quoted from Srila Prabhupada.
But you do not accept Srila Prabhupada. You twist some fanatical divisive political ideas out instead. How come you often steer away from accepting Srila Prabhupada’s directions, and you minimize his authority?
Otherwise wishing the devotees very well. Nitai Gauranga ki jaya! AGTSP.
Your apologies for GGM fall on deaf ears. Srila Prabhupada did not tell him to work with deviants. period. He did not want anyone to work with deviants.
Conversation below, May 1977, says the same. Prabhupada states that his devotees are all coming from from the worst class. This is not Western society, it is the worst class among Westerners, “those who were finished”. And a couple of weeks later he should have appointed full-fledged successor acaryas?
Prabhupada, May 27, 1977, Vrindavana: This is our management. Very bad management. What can I do? This is our movement. We have to select men from the worst class. Papi tapi jata chilo. Nobody will come here after passing M.A., Ph.D. The most fallen we have to select.
Tamala Krsna: Lowest?
Prabhupada: Papi tapi jata chilo, hari-name uddharilo. This is our position. We have to select our worker from the worst class of the society, papi and tapi. But, we shall prove, by hari-nama they become Krishna conscious. That is the movement. You trace the history of everyone. All worst, third class. And they come here. And that is Krishna conscious movement. How many Doctor Svarupa has come? If we speak frankly, all from the worst class. Those who were finished.
And Krishna… It is said, papi-tapi jata chilo. Papi and tapi, they are not first class. They are the tenth class. Papi-tapi jata chilo hari-name uddharilo. This is the test of Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s movement, that how many papi-tapis have been picked up.
Brajendra-nandana jei, saci-suta hoilo sei, balarama hoilo nitai. This is Gaura-Nitai. What is their business? Now, papi-tapi jata chilo, hari-name uddharilo. “Bas? This is their business?” Yes, to deliver all the papis and tapis.
“So how is that?” Tara saksi jagai and madhai. See Jagai-Madhai. It is not imaginary. So we have to deliver all Jagais and Madhais. This is our movement. That is the test of the, of us. It is not sorry for that, but still, they should act like good men.
Yasomatinandana: The verse is here.
kamam vavarsa parjanyah
sarva-kama-dugha mahi
sisicuh sma vrajan gavah…
[SB 1.10.4]
Guess you should discuss such heavy controversy in a face to face meeting. Such kind of severe disagreement cant be solved on the internet.
Or, otherwise, agree that there is no agreement. Usually such kind of discussion lead positions/attitudes of the different parties are hardening.
Internet is a great invention but as usual there is a catch. Internet is good to present articles, to present Prabhupada’s teachings.
However, so far, to solve profound difference of opinion this never was solved on internet forums.
Meanwhile we are having 41 fallen ISKCON gurus, and even more fallen sannyasis, and those who present themselves as reformers are coming up with childish endless back and forth debates?
So it seems there is no sense of cooperation, no sense of following Prabhupada’s parameter of:
Emphasis is, cooperatively.
In sum, all of you are meanwhile having their own websites. Better you post good articles there and present things for all readers on the internet to understand.
There are daily thousands of people reading, so it cannot be that year after year after year they read the same dispute among Prabhupadanugas. Mostly these blogs are monitored by SAC/GBC.
Additionally, those who figure that all disciples of Srila Prabhupada are pure devotees, there is always the option to rejoin ISKCON.
Who said “ALL”? obviously this is directed to me, as I was the one who specificaly mentioned so many pure devotees. SO.. Who said anything about ALL ? Certainly not me.
So again, you are twisting out some false mis-directing ideas, putting words in a person’s mouth that were never said, the very thing you are accusing others of ? You have leaned too many things from Pada and SriMukunda.
This is not a joke nor something childish, Mark, this is the lives of millions of people we are discussing here. GGS has hundreds of thousands of admirers. All of us have our associates. I am 57 anmd joined ISKCON at age 17. So No, it is certainly not a joke, and if you follow the logic of the arguments, which as noted by me above quite likely you and so many may not be able, then it becomes poisonous. So yes, perhaps these things are best discussed off public sight, but these rascals have been publicly attacking Gour Govinda Swami for years, and I am at this late time trying to correct the misinformations they have spread everywhere like bioweapons.
We must distinguish truth from fantasy for the benefit of all beings.
I am new here, to these debates as you call them, Mark, i say discussion of vital sastra, following Srila Prabhupada as he is since the seventies days, and contending with many wackos and CIA-like GSM influenced deviants. I have been practising medicine for many years, and only relatively recently became aware of these so-many nonsenses. So, it is my duty to save the innocents if possible from these recent severe fanatical deviations in the Hare Krsna Movement.
So, before you next try to call me a child abuser / GBC defender like PADA did publicly on Youtube for trying to defend GGS from PADA’s false envious accusations of child abuse, so absurd and low, accusing a maha bhagavata of child abuse when he was never even near a gurukula etcl, but based upon the fact that Bhavananda was in Iskcon at the same time, he calls GGS a deviant? Liar ! He will suffer a long time for that aparadha, he already is.
All who offend pure devotees go down, that is sure. This is their madness lying method which you are following in their footsteps, putting false words in my mouth, then avoiding me by saying “those who.” ? If I have misfollowed you i apologize in advance, but that is the impression i couldn’t help but get..
We must distinguish truth from fantasy for the benefit of all beings. HK
PS thanks for your time and attention; please actually examine the quotes and evidence, as one fool or gang talking big does not constitute truth.
If you support a supporter of a child molester regime, then that makes you a supporter of a child molester Supporter. what is so difficult about that? If I support someone who is killing cows, that makes me a supporter of a cow-killer. if you support a man who supports and endorses child molesters as gurus, what does that make you? a supporter of child molesters. what part of this can you not understand? I would think at 57 years old, this would not be hard to grasp.
Ok, may be I understand your point. You had a close relationship with GGM and knew him personally. Others who did not know him but simply heard about his appointment might think differently because it is all based upon GGM’s claim that Srila Prabhupada told him to be diksa-guru.
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-06/editorials611.htm
So my point is, we have to be fair. There is nothing in writing from Prabhupada, no tapes, nothing.
All there is, GGM’s statement what Prabhupada personally told him. All this is based on this premise that we have to believe what GGM is stating. And for this you realy seem to be ready to fight like anything?
Please read article by Krishna-kripa das again, http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-06/editorials611.htm – it is evidence that the whole issue doesnt go without saying, is rather difficult to understand. Especially for those who were not in close friendship with GGM like you.
Besides, we shouldnt lose the complete overview. Prabhupada is our current link to Krishna’s parampara. If this is established and a GBC is elected all those negligibilities will be solved one by one. Not that we lose our main goal and unnecessarily create camps when some devotees have difficulties to comprehend if GGM was actually ordered by Srila Prabhupada to be the next acarya.
There has to be a sense of tolerance and understanding in this rather controversial issue.
When Prabhupada was asked about INitiations in the future, he did not say anything about GGM and his secret talk with him. Why not? Did Srila Prabhupada forget about this secret talk? in Oct of 1977 just two weeks before Prabhupada lef this body he was asked about initiations and Prabhupada referred them to the list of names on the JUly 9th letter, he for some reason did not mention his secret talk with GGM. Why did Prabhupada not mention this secret talk with GGM? is it because it never happened? Yes it is because it never happened.
Yes this is his cheating. Where are the names Kirtanananda, Bhavananda and Tirtha and Sulochan? why aren’t these names included in the list of pure devotees? Tamohara is a demon who is offensive to Srila Prabhupada by mixing the worship of a conditioned soul (GGM) with the worship of the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada. This is highly offensive and he will go to the darkest region of hell for promoting a conditioned soul who was part of the GayBC and supporter of child molester gurus as a guru. Oh yeah, and when I was with Srila Prabhupada in Vrindavana in 1977, he secretly told me not to listen to GGM.
pamho prabhus agtACBSP
NANDOTSAVA KI JAI,
SRILA PRABHUPADA didn’t want his disciples to listen to Krishna dasa and other godbrothers – babajis – in Vrindavana.
His Holiness Gaura Govinda Maharaja was born in a respectful Vaishnava family like HDG SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKUR and SRILA PRABHUPADA.
But GGM was not on the level of an avatara like HDG BSST who was an avatara in the category of a ray of Vishnu while HDG ACBSP was in the category of a saktya avesha avatara.
GGM renounced his bhajan kutir to preach all over the world following Prabhupada’s instruction.
Therefore, against his will, he got involved in politics of the goonda body commission.
To fulfill the desire of SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA he tried his best to preach but at the same time had to deal with the usurpers of SRILA PRABHUPADA’s movement.
Therefore he’s been criticized by those who mistakenly conclude that he was part of deviant GBC.
Before leaving this planet GGM was invited to meet with the GBC. But that meeting never took place because after he finished a blissful class on SRI Jagannath, Baladeva, Subhadra, in SRI MAYAPUR CANDRADOYA MANDIR he told everyone to leave his room and there he left his body like a paramahamsa.
Only SRI GOPALJU, since childhood his ista deva murti, was there.
So he left the body in the most auspiciuos abode of SRI JI in a blissful mood and this is the proof that altough he was not an avatara like both SRILA PRABHUPADA and SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKUR, still he is very dear to SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA.
SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA don’t consider the temporary involvement with the deviant GBC but rather THEY look in the heart and the heart of GGM was without doubt more clean then ours because he had the power to do the will of SRILA PRABHUPADA.
Even if many who did not know him personally don’t know what realy happened, that’s the trick of maya to keep the unworthy devotees far from the real reflection of the truth because they haven’t realized yet that we are eternal servants and never the masters.
ys
a.c. seva das
haribol
another demon promoting GGM who supported the GBC, never spoke out against the book changes, child molester gurus, was made a guru at Bhavananda’s re-instatement ceremony and went along with all the GBC nonsense so he could be a guru and enjoy like the rest of them. He was a compromised supporter of the GBC and these demons will go to hell for denigrating Srila Prabhupada and his movement in this way.
pamho agtACBSP, oh! sorry you are the devotee born in vaisnava family and we are demons because we said the truth regarding a great soul?
i’m sorry again but it is better you check your brain again before criticizing a great soul like GGM by mistaking him for somebody else.
Mind your business don’t mix everything like the mayavadi maha aparadhi,
ys haribol
My business is to defend Srila Prabhupada against demons like you who want to bring Srila Prabhupada down to the level of someone like GGM who cooperated with and enjoyed the benefits of being a GBC guru, plain and simple. You want to apologize for GGM and his guruship from the deviant GBC that admits it’s gurus have sex with men, women and children. This is your demoniac mentality that a pure devotee would get a guruship from deviants. shame on you. Shame on you for disrespecting Srila Prabhupada and his movement like that. if you continue to offend Srila Prabhupada in this way, your spiritual life is finished, if not all ready finished. Come back to Srila Prabhupada and his pure teachings and give up this poisonous nonsense.
Srimukunda; Don’t you dare speak about a great soul as Abhaya Carana Prabhu, why do you resort to this type of abuse? You have revealed a snake-like attitude again, please calm down
Simply admit, say, I was mistaken, please excuse me, now lets work together to promote chanting Hare Krishna, and never again attack great devotees. There are things more important than any of our insignificant egos.
You cannot speak sense anymore, as you have no position, so you must resort to cursing and swearing, you are now quite totally defeated as a gentleman. That cannot be good despite our mutual forgivenesses here.
Yes, this is Mayavada; we are all one, every single soul who came near Bhavananda, including you , me and most of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, are all child abusers because we were in Iskcon at the same time, never mind he fought the nonsense and continued to point out the truth even when they banned him and prepared to further insult him, he and we are all child abusers. And Srila Prabhupadas’ giving sannyasa to GGS was a mistake, because he told everyone to stop taking sannyasa, so Srila Prabhupada did not do what he said. This is what you said, Srimukunda, anyone can read it above. That is your reasonning, that is no reasoning at all, it is impersonalism, it is mayavada contamination.
pamho agtACBSP, we love SRILA PRABHUPADA more than anyone else. I’m just saying that HH GGM was involved with the GBC but his mentality and karma were different from ours.
We say that SRILA PRABHUPADA is our guru we don’t say it is HH GGM, but we respect him as a devotee with different birth chart. Bhagavad-gita also says to take birth in a respectful vaishnava family is very rare. I agree with you regarding what you are thinking about the GBC but try to understand the difficult case of HH GGM, please,
agtys ys ac.c seva das haribol
I speak the truth. If you wish to defend someone like GGM who got his guruship from a deviated GBC, that is your business. My business is to defend Srila Prabhupada from the likes of you two.
Thanks Sri Mukunda prabhu, thanks A.C. Seva prabhu, thanks Tamohara prabhu! So basically there is no disagreement among Prabhupadanugas. They all agree that Srila Prabhupada is our current link to Krishna’s parampara and this is what ultimately will save all jivas on this planet – bring them all back to Krishna’s Lotusfeet – turn the whole world into Vaikuntha.
Of course Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement is also “a tree with many branches”, indicating that there are many different personalities who open temples and establish spiritual projects.
Deep within their hearts, Sankirtan devotees wish to feel the presence of the Lord while singing the Holy Name, although the mood of the Sankirtan movement is to serve in separation.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated practically how one can achieve love of Krishna by adopting Srimati Radharani’s mood in separation from Krishna.
So, the ultimate goal is to attain very intimate relationship or love of Godhead. Prabhupada especially asked us to accomplish this task already in this lifetime.
To attain this goal in this lifetime so that we won’t have to take birth again in the material world with all its innumerable pitfalls and diversions. Somebody recently asked, why are there thousands and thousands of monkeys in Vrindavan/Mayapur? Surely an indicator that before going back to Godhead, lots of people who formerly were on the right path are ready to make this kind of detour.
Sastra says, although Kali-yuga is full of faults, an ocean of faults, there is still one good quality about this age. It is that simply by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, one can become free from material bondage and be promoted to the transcendental kingdom.
And for this reason even demigods are lining up to take birth on this planet – nicely received by us in our exemplary gurukulas – and to jump at the chance to attain the eternal kingdom of God, Goloka Vrindavan.
There are of course minor differences among those who believe the soul is an individual personality, with individual thinking, feeling and willing. To have all united and conjointly work together – not an easy task. But Prabhupada took that challenge right in the witches’ caldron of kali-yuga.
Ultimately Vaishnavas do not like to waste their time in prolonged wrangling over philosophic controversial issues. We have to have faith that gradually we become purified from within and things become clear.
Not that we figure that all this chanting of the holy name wont change anything we rather have to endlessly debate. Devotees would rather worship the Personality of Godhead than quarrel with philosophical adversaries. Sing and dance, honor prasadam and feel happy seeing others advancing in spiritual life.
Jaya, all glories to Prabhupada for bringing Krishna consciousness to the West!
Actually, the whole disciplic succession is ritvik.There are gaps in the succession given in the Gita, in time, between spiritual master listed there, such that the next acarya would have had to have accepted a Guru who as not in a “living” gross physical form, as is currently required by the GBCs. So, our whole succession is via ritvik priests, and Usurper IScon say it is unprecedented ?
Imagine that! ~~(>,’ ) They have deviated so badly, they have become blind..
I am saying yes, everyone can have Srila Prabhupada as their diksa guru now. He is available to everyone, everywhere. He is living in his books and the follower lives with him. I can’t say that about his disciples tho, none of his disciples have ever been authorized to be gurus and the GBC was never authorized to appoint gurus.