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GEORGE A. SMITH | Dec 31, 2011 — CALIFORNIA, USA (SUN) — […] One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. Full article
PADA | Dec 31, 2011 — CALIFORNIA, USA — Now George A Smith says we are not reading the shastra, therefore, we chose to worship a pure devotee and not George and Rocana’s non-existent “live guru.” Sorry, Rocana said to me in 1997 that I have to follow his “tradition” and worship his “living guru.” I said, “Lets immediately drive over to see your live guru, and I will wash his feet.”
Then Rocana got mad at me and hardly ever spoke to me again, because I called his bluff, he and George Smith are liars, they have no live guru. At all. Its all bluff, they just hate seeing Srila Prabhupada being worshipped as the guru. Srila Prabhupada says anyone who has no guru means, they think they are the guru themselves. Sorry, no one is accepting that Rocana and George A. Smith are the new living gurus?
Rocana and George A. Smith have also never named their living guru because they want us to accept that they are the new living gurus, that is what Srila Prabhupada says about these people who do not name their guru, they want to be guru themselves. So we have been waiting for 35 years for Rocana to name his live guru, he has not done so. Srila Prabhupada says people who do not name their gurus are mayavada, that is all that has occured, Rocana has shown that he is a mayavada. Srila Prabhupada is not his guru because he is “posthumous,” yep, we have to worship Rocana’s living bag of stools body?
Rocana also says he hates to see Jesus being worshipped, and that our worship of Prabhupada is like the worship of Jesus. Why does Rocana hate Jesus? Rocana and his pals on the GBC and Kailash are also mentioning the name of Jesus in a negative way too, all the time they want to re-crucify Jesus. Yep, therefore a lot of us are thinking these are the same people who wanted to get rid of the worship of Jesus have been re-incarnated to try to get rid of the worship of Prabhupada. Birds of a feather. The only thing Rocana has “proved” in 35 years is — that he hates to see pure devotees being worshipped. He is with the GBC, he is one of them. ys pd
It is plainly obvious that rocana is looking for recognition, fame and all the things he spends his time pointing out about others. He wants to be guru but he is unable to give up sex desire living in a no child relationship at such an advanced age.
pamho prabhus agtACBSP PUTRADA EKADASI ki jai,
Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only become a diksa guru when both the qualification and authorisation are in place. Srila Prabhupada had not authorised any such gurus, nor had he stated that any of his disciples were qualified to initiate. Rather, just prior to July 9th, he agreed that they were still “conditioned souls”, and that vigilance was essential lest persons pose themselves as guru.
The instruction for everyone to become guru is found in the following verse in the Caitanya-Caritamrta, which was often quoted by Srila Prabhupada:
However, the type of guru, which Lord Caitanya is encouraging everyone to become, is clearly established in the detailed purports following this verse:
We can see that these instructions do not demand that the gurus in question first attain any particular level of realisation before they act. The request is immediate. From this it is clear everyone is simply encouraged to preach what they may know, and in so doing become siksa gurus, instructing gurus.
ys haribol
Hare Krsna Seva Prabhu,
You wrote that Srila Prabhupada had not authorised any such Gurus nor had He stated that any of His disciples were qualified to Initiate.
In what form do you expect to evidence “authorisation” by Srila Prabhupada?
But also In NOI Text 5 all platforms of Adhikaras are qualified to Initiate and have disciples,thats clear .
The Guru, that you quote from Cc 7.128 and 7.130 are not Shiksa Gurus they are Vartma-pradasaka-gurus.
Shiksa Gurus are qualified on the same level as Diksa Gurus,there is not doubt about that.
Cc 1.47.
“One should know the Instructing Spiritual Mater to be the Personality of Krsna……..”
Purport.
“There is no difference between the shelter giving Supreme Lord and the Initiating and Instructing Spiritual Masters.If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.”
You seem to be just parrot fashioned in repeating the ritvik propaganda conclusion on the verses you have provided from the Cc,7.128 and 7.130.
The verses in Cc from Adi Lila 1-50 explain the Guru Tattva subject in detail and the qualification and ability of the Shiksa Gurus.
“It is the duty of the Shiksa Guru or Diksa Guru to instruct the disciple in the right way,and it depends on the disciple to execute the process.According to sastric injunctions, there is no difference between the Shiksa Guru and Diksa Guru, and generally the Shiksa Guru later on becomes the Diksa Guru.” S.B 4.12.32.
Here we clearly see the Shiksa Guru instructs His disciple in the right way,so Shiksa Gurus have disciples.And that the Shiksa Guru becomes the Diksa Guru.So the Shiksa Guru must be qualified to be a Diksa Guru as well as a Shiksa Guru.
What you have presented from the Cc.7.128 and 7.130 does not philosophically tally with the other evidence found in Srila Prabhupada’s Books,Vani.
You have just presented exactly what all the ritviks present .But its wrong.If you read all about the Shiksa Gurus they are equal and identical manifestations of the Supreme Lord.But the ritviks have just become fixated with Diksa and minimise Shiksa and Shiksa Gurus as you have presented.
Why dont you become a Shiksa Disciple of Srila Prabhupada first???
From your other postings you show that you are a thinking devotee and also a reasonable person who listens to genuine debate,so please rise above all the ritvik propaganda and again read Srila Prabhupada’s vani about Shiksa Gurus,their quality and their function.
I am sure if you do this again you will see that the verses you evidenced from Cc 7.128-7.130 dont point to Shiksa Gurus but Vartma-pradarsaka-gurus.
Cc Madhya 8.128.
“One who first gives information about spiritual life is called the vartma-pradarsaka-guru or spiritual master.The spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the sastras is called diksa-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called shiksa-guru.”
Cc 1.34.
“Gurun is plural in number because ANYONE who gives spiritual instructions based on revealed scriptures is accepted as a spiritual master.Although others may help in showing the way to beginners,the guru who first initiates one with the maha-mantra is to be known as the initiator, and the SAINTS who give instructions for progressive advancement in Krsna consciousness are called instructing spiritual masters.The initiating and instructing spiritual masters are equal and identical manifestations of Krsna,although they have different dealings.Their function is to guide the conditioned souls back home, back to Godhead.”
This is Srila Prabhupada’s clear understanding of the Three types of spiritual masters and how they function.The Shiksa Gurus are SAINTS,very elevated devotees.
Cc 1.36.
“The instructing spiritual masters are Sri Rupa Goswami, Sri Sanatana Goswami, Sri Bhatta Raghunatha, Sri Jiva Goswami, Sri Gopala Bhatta Goswami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami.”
These are Srila Krsna dasa Goswami’s six Instructing Spiritual Masters, this is the level of Shiksa Guru.
your servant Dusyanta dasa.
Hare Krishna Dusyanta Prabhu,
since Prabhupada did not install such kind of siksa-gurus in his movement who are to be considered as fully liberated paramahamsa, devotees generally refer to siksa-guru as something like what even pot washers of the temple kitchen do, to tell guests to chant Hare Krishna, offer their food, give them a Bhagavad-gita, etc.
When the word guru is used, it refers to either diksa-guru or siksa-guru, unless specified; the vartmapradarsaka-guru is also a siksa-guru, but he has a different dealing with a person who has just come into contact with spiritual life. The correct understanding of siksa-guru is,
Caitanya-caritamrita Adi 1.58
Note here that, “such a spiritual master” is referred to in the verse and transliteration as a siksa-guru, i.e., an advanced, liberated devotee of the Lord. “He appears before us as a liberated devotee.”
Lecture in Honolulu, July 4, 1974
For his followers, Srila Prabhupada was diksa-guru, siksa-guru, and vartma-pradarshaka-guru as well. The siksa-guru, in the true sense of the term, is a liberated, self-realized mahatma–an advanced devotee, a great soul.
In order to be under the custody of such kind of siksa-guru, this has to be authorized by the diksa-guru, i.e. Srila Prabhupada. However, Prabhupada did not install such kind of siksa-gurus in his movement who are to considered as fully liberated, self-realized pure devotees.
So any devotee (on virtually any platform of purity–or lack thereof) can present some teachings of Srila Prabhupada to a newcomer and thus be considered a siksa-guru.
Bilvamangala Thakura has recorded his life in the book known as Krishna-karnamrita. In the beginning of that book he has offered his obeisances to his different gurus, and it is to be noted that he has adored them all equally.
Cintamani was a prostitute with whom Bilvamangala was intimate earlier in his life. She gave him the inspiration to begin on the path of devotional service, and because she convinced him to give up material existence to try for perfection by loving Krishna, he has first offered his respects to her.
All glories to Cintamani and my initiating spiritual master, Somagiri. All glories to my instructing spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who wears peacock feathers in His crown. Under the shade of His lotus feet, which are like desire trees, Jayasri (Radharani) enjoys the transcendental mellow of an eternal consort.
Btw, ritvik is not a new invention but a term established by Prabhupada. Acting on Prabhupada’s behalf, initiating devotees on Prabhupada’s behalf. Stating, “the ritvik deviation”, means, not to act on behalf of Prabhupada? Sounds pretty much silly. Hope this clarifies the confusion about what is siksa-guru in our present situation.
Your servant, Seva das
pamho prabhus agtACBSP
We are trying first of all to be good spiritual parrots (ritviks) and to become firmly situated on the transcendental platform like the best parrot – SRI SUKADEVA GOSWAMI – that’s our only qualification, not to invent, but to repeat the pure message of God.
Scholarship is no qualification for becoming guru, sabda-brahmani nisnato na nisnayat pare yadi sramas tasya srama-phalo hy adhenum iva raksatah, it is said one may be expert in vedic scholarship, but if he fails to understand the position of the Absolute Truth and doesn’t recognize Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead all his study is just a waste of time.
His hard work will be his only reward and his efforts will be like the labor of one who struggles to mantain a cow that has no calf and cannot produce milk. (Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.11.18)
SRILA PRABHUPADA is our only diksa- and siksa-guru. We can instruct the ordinary crowd of this sinful age but never try to take the position of guru without being Krishna conscious as our beloved acharya is.
To take the position of someone else is very dangerous it gives personality disorder in claiming to be guru without Vaishnava family background as SRILA PRABHUPADA.
We are just children beginners therefore it is better to follow SRILA PRABHUPADA instead of cheating by going to hell with all those who are still dealing with living dead guru.
Things are alive when one becomes free from the bodily conception of life – like SRILA PRABHUPADA who is still alive – for those who got the right sight.
agtys
ys seva das
haribol
Hare Krsna Seva Prabhu.
I think that Srila Prabhupada did install many Saintly Shiksa Gurus into Iskcon through His Books.All the 6Goswamis.All the Acharyas. And Lord Brahma.And many other Shiksa Gurus found in Srila Prabhupada’s Books.
“The best way of understanding is to accept such divine instruction, and Brahma,the prime spiritual master of EVERYONE, is the LIVING example of this process of receiving Transcendental Knowledge.” S.Bhagavatama 2.9.8.
Great example of our living Shiksa Guru ,Lord Brahma.who is saintly.
“But one can have the same facility through inalloyed devotees of the Lord,through scriptural injunctions (as revealed in the B.Gita and S.Bhagavatam), and also through the bona fide spiritual master available to the sincere soul.The Lord Himself appears as the spiritual master(shiksa guru) to a person who is sincere in heart about serving the Lord……If a person is posted under the guidance of such a bona fide spiritual master, it may be accepted without any doubt that the desiring person has achieved the grace of the Lord.”
S.Bhagavatam. 2.9.7.
Of course there are so many examples in the S.Bhagavatam where Srila Prabhupada has installed many Shiksa Gurus into the Hare krsna movement.
But you also said the potwashers in iskcon could be Shiksa Gurus but Srila Prabhupada did not install any Shiksa Gurus in Iskcon.
So which one do you think is true because they are contradictory.
Srila Prabhupada is not our only Shiksa Guru that is just your idea. there are many Shiksa Gurus in Srila Prabhupada’s Books and He authorised Iskcon.
There is the great Book called Nectar of Instruction by Srila Rupa Goswami who is our Shiksa Guru.
“The Krsna Consciousness movement is conducted under the supervision of Srila Rupa Goswami….Therefore , to understand the mission of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and follow in His footsteps,one must very seriously follow in the footsteps of the Six Goswamis…….To achieve the highest success in life by becoming a Goswami and then a pure devotee of the Lord,one MUST follow the INSTRUCTIONS known as Upadesamrita, which has been GIVEN by Srila Rupa Goswami…But Upadeshamrita constitutesthe first instructions for neophyte devotees.One should follow these instructions very strictly.Then it will be easier to make ones life successful, Hare Krsna.”
Preface of N.of Instruction by Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada is instructing us to be instructed by Srila Rupa Goswami our Shiksa Guru,here Srila Prabhupada authorises us all neophytes to follow Srila Rupa Goswami,our spiritual master.
But you are not repeating the pure message because you have made it all up.You are afflicted with ritvik propaganda and so what you speak is tainted in the same style.Its just propaganda speaking through you.
Shiksa Guru is the same in all situations but we are the ones who change it.Shiksa Guru is non-different to Lord Krsna just like the Diksa Guru.You need to read Srila Prabhupada’s WORDs from Cc about the Shiksa Guru in the Guru Tattva.
We have been authorised to be under the “Custody” of the Shiksa Gurus through Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS.What do you think the Nectar of Instruction is all about if it is not the Shiksa of Srila Rupa Goswami,where Srila Prabhupada says we MUST follow His Shiksa.!!!!
Are you really a parrot like Srila Sukadeva Goswami? I dont think so because He repeated purely but you dont do that because you are a ritvik, and the ritviks are just repeating propaganda not Tattva.
The pot washers you refer to are just vartma-pradarsaka spiritual masters not Shiksa Gurus ,you are completely wrong.
What i said was not ritvik deviation but ritvik propaganda.
You are not readin Srila Prabhupada’s vani because your conclusions are out of kilter with His conclusions, and you misrepresent Him all the time.
Of course there are Shiksa Gurus that we must follow thats Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.Read His BOOKs.Stop listening to ritvik propaganda and start again from the beginning with an open heart and a transparent mind,you will see the difference in your conclusions after some time.The ritvik propaganda machine makes you think in one way only and you interprete everything through ritvik eyes but i am saying just stop for awhile and read Srila Prabhupada’s Books through your own eyes again and the difference is amazing.Its way better than being a ritvik.Ritviks are boring.The ritvik propaganda is nearly over now and the Iskcon/Gurus are nearly over as well and soon it will be time in Iskcon for the transparency to start again.
pamho agtACBSP well now is clear that you are really to the opposite side of the safe journey i mean you will find other people to argue about that i’m too busy with my daily sadhana bhakti of HDG ACBSP so i got not more time to waste by talking childish regarding the guru tattva as you are keeping doing so i wish you good luck all my best ys haribol
Hare Krsna Dusyanta.
So far, you have studiously avoided the question:
‘What system of initiations did Srila Prabhupada authorise for ISKCON after his physical departure?’
This was the same question which was asked of him on May 28th, 1977, and Srila Prabhupada answered as follows:
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted.”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
Tamala Krishna: “Is that called ritvik-acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik. Yes.”
(May 28th, 1977)
Srila Prabhupada says “Ritvik. Yes”. Dusyanta says “Ritvik. No.”
Better you heed your own advice and “read Srila Prabhupada’s vani because your conclusions are out of kilter with His conclusions.”
pamho prabhus agtACBSP
yes you are right jay prabhu, dusyanta pr does not like to repeat – in other words they forgot that we are just tools – nimitta matram – during this temporary short breathing of SRI MAHA VISHNU.
he wants to be the guru like his boss rocana dasa who is training all of them to jump over the ritvik system given by SRILA PRABHUPADA.
all of them are like puppies moving their tail to show that they are happy with their own way of spiritual realization because they don’t know yet what is up.
but when the puppy grows older it becomes very sad because it gets the false ego smashed and all his mental speculation dreams regarding guru tattva vanish.
we wish them to surrender to SRILA PRABHUPADA before the time will be over.
agtsp ys
seva das
haribol