Posted, March 16 2009, India — Dear Rupanuga Prabhu, thank you for your opinion on this very important issue. There are many ways in which a disciple of Srila Prabhupada can understand this issue. The conclusion you have presented is one way, but does not make any sense, and it is not clear from the information you present what point you are making. Lilesvara dasa is even less clear with his letter. Seeing how English speaking devotees cannot understand English is hard to stomach. English is my second language and I can understand these simple instructions, why cannot you do this?
It is well understood most devotees were initiated under the Ritvik system unless Srila Prabhupada was present. The facts speak for themselves. The pure devotee of Lord Krsna in full control of his senses and in spiritual bliss, knowing the time of his entrance into Samadhi was several months away, he had the Ritvik system of initiation he had given in his movement for many years documented officially. This is clear and understood, is it not? The fact that he had it documented close to his departure from us is very important aspect when understanding what the pure devotee intended.
In your quote from his Divine Grace, it is clear Srila Prabhupada is again reinforcing this system even closer to his departure. Srila Prabhupada: “This initiation. I have deputed my disciples. Is it clear or not? Tamal Krsna: U>It is clear.”
You provide a very nice statement from His Divine Grace… “U>And if by Krsna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again,” We know our beloved Srila Prabhupada did not recover from this condition…
He went on to state “U>or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.” Here His Divine Grace continued he did not think that his condition would change for the better and so he U>may not be able to initiate again. He also added “It is not good”.
My question is, exactly where do you see His Divine Grace wanting another system, other than the one he talks about here? Do we see he wanted the system he set up to change? If he wanted us to find another guru apart from himself when he departed he had the opportunity then to say this. He could have said many things in the time he had left, but he did not. He could have stated in clear terms, before he went into Samadhi, if he wanted us to:
Find a living pure devotee to take shelter/re-initiation from them
We must wait until one of us become pure devotee and then take shelter of them and have them then begin the process of initiation
He did not. He said many things after the conversation you quoted, but he did not say anything else about this subject. I believe this clear, is it not? If anyone has any substantiated conversation, letter or instruction that states otherwise, please bring this forward. All we do know for fact he set-up the ritvik system many years before this and he had it documented only months before he departed. He also did not give much hope for his recovery and should he go into Samadhi, it would be Krsna’s grace. Even in your supplied quotes he speaks of the ritvik system.
Nowhere did he state now we must:
Appoint Zonal Acaryas to be gurus.
Nor does he go on to say we must wait for a pure devotee to arise in our midst.
Nor did he say to go seek out a pure devotee from outside of his ISKCON to take shelter of.
All we have is the ritvik system, is it not? Not find another acarya guru or rubber-stamp one? I was initiated under this system and it is my firm and unshakable belief Srila Prabhupada is still present for me, and anyone else who so desires his shelter. For me he is not dead. For me, I refused then (Zonal Acaryas) and I still refuse now to find living guru, no matter if he or she is a pure devotee or not. I have His Divine Grace and his pure representative in the form of other devotees in ISKCON (siksa gurus), and this is all I ever need or want. If others who come while Srila Prabhupada is in Samadhi want to take initiation or shelter of His Divine Grace, who am I or you to stop them? He was, is, and forever shall be the pure devotee we must find and render service unto.
As an Indian devotee I know many other Indian devotees have accepted this system of Ritvik given by His Divine Grace. Only the bogus Gaudiya Math Gurus and the American Gurus and GBC want this living guru/acarya system kept going. In fact, most of ISKCON India is closet Ritvik.
So please read our Srila Prabhupada’s words above with care and attention. It is all there, but you do not have eyes to see this. Read and think again. Our Divine Grace is no fool, and nor should we be. We must stop making these foolish claims by placing words in our Acaryas mouth. Let him speak for himself and we must only listen and follow. Change not one thing. That is all I sincerely beg from my godbrothers and sisters.
All glories to His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
Vaikunthanath das
Hare Krishna Vaikunthanath Prabhu,
PAMHO. AGTSP!
Well put. Please be careful though in inadvertently propagating/implying this philosophy that the Westerners are to blame, and the Indians are all pure Vaisnavas.
Perhaps you are personally innocent of this, but it is essentially bogus propaganda which has been used to cheaply attract the mind of many Indians. We must remember that it was also Indian disciples of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajacacharya Bhaktisiddhahta Maharaj Goswami who also ignored his instructions simply for name, fame and recognition, by appointing themselves also as Acharyas, thus eviscerating the Guadiya Matha.
This human tendency is not presupposed by skin colour. Always remain conscious of this. Many innocent Westerners (who helped build up the movement) were completely cheated and forced out by the offenders.
Our preaching must be pure and beyond reproach in order to have the desired effect. This means eliminating pride and not preaching on the bodily platform.
Please accept this offering in the mood it was intended, that is, not an attack on your good and noble self, but simply to address an issue which I believe is a concern of His Divine Grace.
Your servant,
Janardan Das.
Thank you to Vaikunthanath & Janardan prabhus for these comments. Could you please advise where to find Rupanuga das’ comment that is being replied to. I have seen a few but would appreciate the reference for continuity.
Yes Janardan prabhu, I would expect there are just as many ‘Western’ ritviks as there are ‘Indian’ ritviks who follow Srila Prabhupada’s authorized system for the continuation of the initiation process. Here in Australia, most of us are ‘out of the closet’, but there are still many who just perform their deity puja and have nought to do with admin.. that’s their choice.
I think even a cursory look at the list of guroos & gbc would reveal many of Indian ‘nationality’ who have whole heartedly embraced the bogus zonal/rubber-stamp invention just as the western bodied crims have done. They are all ‘tarred with the same brush’ = PAD!
I received initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada in Feb 1973 and served as his ritvik representative from ’75 until his vapu departure by recommending initiates to him for 1st & 2nd initiations as temple president. I still have his original letters requesting me to perform yajna formalities for his new disciples. My regret is that during the 80s as TP, I supported the ‘zonal mafia system’ until I resigned in 89,due to disallusionment with gbc & guroo ‘falldowns’. I was fortunate to receive a manuscript-type copy of Krsna Kant prabhu’s ‘The Final Order’ in ’96, not knowing how they even had my address. I dismissed it at first, thinking just another bogus off-shoot, but after a short time the REALITY of the offense against His Divine Grace became very clear.
If that system as he ordained was still in place, ISKCON would certainly be a wonderful society, as opposed to the fabricating, cheating & corruption etc that we see today from the top down.
The leaders, both Indian & ‘western’ must be held accountable for the 2 great offenses to His Divine Grace, ie
1) Stealing his disciples & daksine by not following his final order… (my disciples>>you are ritvik only).
2) Changing the written words of his translations and even his Bhaktivedanta Purports.
Your humble street-sweeper servant,
Balaram das.
Balaram das: I was fortunate to receive a manuscript-type copy of Krsna Kant prabhu’s ‘The Final Order’ in ’96, not knowing how they even had my address. I dismissed it at first, thinking just another bogus off-shoot, but after a short time the REALITY of the offense against His Divine Grace became very clear.
Mahesh: Glad to hear this – these were all done from my high-rise 5th floor flat (lifts broke down often times or was filled with urine also. Not dogs urine – but drunks AND smelled like hell! ). Myself, Madhusudan das, sorted the paying for printing,distributing I did the posting DIRECTLY few thousands all over the world from UK. Another devotee also “Z” also helped in collating the pages into the booklet together in final stages – very tiring. So – if you got it from posted from WITHIN Australia – then we also sent a HUGE batch there. I remember Madhusudan loaded maybe? 50 BIG cases to post – someone in Australia BULK air shipment from Manchester Airport who was supposed to have posted to all there. But IF you received it posted DIRECTLY FROM UK – I did the posting. I had MANY addresses. Infact, I had collected many ISKCON center, congregation members addresses from various sources books, magazines, advertising journals etc. So ALL were sent National AND International. Many THOUSANDS were sent. One of my rooms was nearly FULL with cases and the other main sitting-room was where collating the pages into the manuscript type copy booklet was done with see-thru plastic front cover with basic binding machine(loan from another devotee who showed me how to use it). Did many trips to the Post-Office which was about 10 minutes from my place. I put in big envelopes sello-taped then had to put in BIG ASDA supermarket shopping trolley then had to go lift down – many times lift did not even work had to use stairs to go to the next level down. I remember once Madhusudan helped to go down another flight of stairs below once as the lift was out of order so – with Shopping trolley we went down STAIRS to the floor below so another lift can be used. There were 2 lifts for alternate floors. As you know the BIG shopping trolley makes big noise – imagine taking that FULL with posting packages of Final Order to the stairs below.
Forgot to mention – Kamsahanta Prabhu ALSO went with distributing to devotees in Australia, Hong Kong, America etc.
Balaram das:
The leaders, both Indian & ‘western’ must be held accountable for the 2 great offenses to His Divine Grace, ie
1) Stealing his disciples & daksine by not following his final order… (my disciples>>you are ritvik only).
2) Changing the written words of his translations and even his Bhaktivedanta Purports.
Mahesh: I agree – the situation IS if ANYONE is Anti Ritvik bogus guru he is an offender to Srila Prabhupada. It is not about Indian or Western. It is about STEALING Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, Properties, manipulating and CHANGING his books. Anti Ritviks Prabhupada OFFENDERS are DEMONS who are MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING CROOKS who DIMINISH ALL KINDS OF WELFARE:
THE DEMONS DIMINISH ALL KINDS OF WELFARE:
KB 4 Kamsa Begins His Persecutions
Thus being advised by the demoniac ministers, Kamsa, who was from the very beginning the greatest rascal, decided to persecute the brahmanas and Vaisnavas, being entrapped by the shackles of all-devouring, eternal time. He ordered the demons to harass all kinds of saintly persons, and then he entered his house. The adherents of Kamsa were all influenced by the modes of passion as well as illusioned by the modes of ignorance, and their only business was to create enmity with saintly persons. Such activities can only reduce the duration of life. The demons accelerated the process and invited their deaths as soon as possible. THE RESULT OF PERSECUTING SAINTLY PERSONS IS NOT ONLY UNTIMELY DEATH. THE ACT IS SO OFFENSIVE THAT THE ACTOR ALSO GRADUALLY LOSES HIS BEAUTY, HIS FAME AND HIS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES, AND HIS PROMOTION TO HIGHER PLANETS IS ALSO CHECKED. DRIVEN BY VARIOUS KINDS OF MENTAL CONCOCTIONS, THE DEMONS DIMINISH ALL KINDS OF WELFARE. AN OFFENSE AT THE LOTUS FEET OF THE DEVOTEES AND BRAHMANAS IS A GREATER OFFENSE THAN THAT COMMITTED AT THE LOTUS FEET OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THUS A GODLESS CIVILIZATION BECOMES THE SOURCE OF ALL CALAMITIES.