Dear Gaura Kesava and all Prabhus, Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to our jagat guru Srila Prabhupada!
The debate goes on. I’ve been watching on the sidelines this internet istagosthi and now I had to jump in. I will be short and to the point because I am typing on my iphone.
I was personally serving Srila Prabhupada back in 1977 when he first decided he was going to leave the planet. I heard him say that he wanted the ritvik initiation system for his movement after his departure. This is documented in the July 9th 1977 Newsletter to all Temple Presidents and G.B.C.’s. That letter was dictated from a July 7th 1977 Garden conversation which I heard. That is our sastra! That is specific. You say we must follow sastra; there it is. Is there anymore sastra after that date that would change anything?
We need the guru to explain the sastra to us; otherwise we will pick and choose whatever suits us and end up not following the real orders of the spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada warned us about ‘over-intelligence’ and I think that is what we have here. Instead of us trying to figure out how initiations should go on from (which) sastra we should instead try to figure out what our guru said and did. He had the ritvik system up and running for years before he left, physically and he wanted that to continue as he said on July 7th 1977. It’s on tape!
I have been trying to speak to the GBC for 32 years now but so far my requests have fallen on deaf ears. They say they have no time every time every year I ask to attend their meetings to discuss this most important issue. Most of them are initiating on their own so you can imagine why they won’t discuss it. It might mess up their retirement plans. Profit, distinction and of course adoration.
If we leave it up to the new devotees to check out their gurus they will be misled. Then later if their ‘guru’ falls down they will probably be disheartened and leave KRSNA Consciousness altogether as so many have. That is why Srila Prabhupada most intelligently set up the ritvik initiation system for his movement.
If someone wants to be a diksa guru he or she must be able to deliver them back to Godhead. They must have full KRSNA prema. They must do this in their own temples; not Srila Prabhupada’s! That is Vaisnava ettiquette. Srila Prabhupada did not try to become a diksa guru in the Gaudiya Math. The self-effulgent acharya can attract the souls and build his/her movement from the ground up. That’s what Srila Prabhupada the acharya did; that’s what we need to do.
We’ve got guru fever. Sikas gurus we can and should be but diksa guru is one for ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada! It’s simple for some but complicated for the over-intelligent speculators. I hope this helped.
Haven’t seen you for many years since you were with Dristadyumna I’m Hawaii. Glad to see you are hanging in there but have faith in His Divine Grace; he’s there also if you let him.
Hoping this meets you and all the Vaisnavas well and advancing in KC
Your servant,
Gauridasa Pandita Dasa
If they got the guru fever, they should oppen up there own ashram and deliver who ever likes to take there shelter,but please dont give them the helter skelter.
On the other side, we Prabhupadanugas are like the new age pandavas, same problem same fight. So, to change the situation, we have to get a Prabhupadanuga army, all together now, get up, stand up for our right, and do the fight!
So prabhu’s, as We all know srila Prabhupada,
he would say, i am right, ore i am wrong ?
He even told us, only together YOU CAN…… win win win. so lets take his words for granted
Gauridasa Pandit prabhu states……
” I heard him say that he wanted the ritvik initiation system for his movement after his departure. This is documented in the July 9th 1977 Newsletter to all Temple Presidents and G.B.C.’s. That letter was dictated from a July 7th 1977 Garden conversation which I heard. That is our sastra!…………………… He had the ritvik system up and running for years before he left, physically and he wanted that to continue as he said on July 7th 1977. It’s on tape!
This is also confirmed by HG BV Puri Maharaja in his ITV interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cKP1gU46A
Of course speaking from ‘tradition’, BV Puri Maharaja suggests ‘ritvik only while you are here’. However as the Maha Bhagavata Acarya, Srila Prabhupada directed the system to continue in his society after his physical departure, just as he had made so many adjustments according to kala patra desa in order to preach in Kali Yuga, as supported by Srimad Viraraghava Acarya.
“SB 4.8.54 Purport:
Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
BV Puri Maharaja also predicted there would be catastrophe in ISKCON, even with 11 gurus, what to speak of hundreds of rubber stamped, ‘want to be’ imposters. How true!
Yhs,
Bd.
Nice post from Gauridas Pandita prabhu. Thanks so much for your sincere and honest contribution. You are one of the few who were there with Srila Prabhupada. Unfortunately so many tapes have gone missing from that time. From watching the ritvik debate in the early nineties, I could see how Jayadvaita dismissed your testimony as heresay. I pray that the truth will prevail.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada !!
Balaram das Prabhu writes ; ” Of course speaking from ‘tradition’, BV Puri Maharaja suggests ‘ritvik only while you are here’. ”
Does It not mean that BV Puri Maharaja does not accept the system of Ritvik after Srila Prabhupada’s manifested lila ?
If NOT, why NOT ?
Balaram das Prabhu further writes ; ” BV Puri Maharaja also predicted there would be catastrophe in ISKCON, even with 11 gurus, what to speak of hundreds of rubber stamped, ‘want to be’ imposters. How true! ”
A common sense dictates that so called 11 self proclaimed gurus would certainly create havoc in the world wide Iskcon Institution of Srila Prabhupada. That is why the present management of Iskcon have changed Srila Prabhupada’s Books and His Instructions to best suit their respective present position in the Iskcon.
I wonder what was his concept of BV Puri Maharaja to carry forward Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon, and why did he disagree to the Ritvik system after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance.?
Any body please answer my above mentioned two questions.
Thanks.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu, my intention in quoting HG BV Puri Maharaja’s interview was only to confirm that Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted the ritvik system of initiations, which had already been in place in ISKCON for many years, to continue after his physical departure. Seeing that none of his disciples were qualified, even for sannyasa as he stated in 1977, there was no alternative.
It is really inconsequential what BV Puri Maharaja felt or thought about that, as our only concern as disciples was the instructions of our Guru Maharaja. As Prabhupada stated, BV Puri was very kind hearted and non envious, unlike the majority of his Godbrothers, but still he was aligned with the GM and their conservative process. They were always critical about Srila Prabhupada’s preaching methods and he warned us as follows….
“Therefore amongst my God brothers NO ONE IS QUALIFIED to become acharya. So it is better NOT TO MIX with my God brothers very intimately, because instead of inspiring our students they may sometimes POLLUTE them. This attempt was made by them previously, especially MADHAVA Maharaja and TIRTHA Maharaja and BON Maharaja, but somehow I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be careful about them AND NOT MIX WITH THEM. This is my instruction to YOU ALL. They CANNOT HELP us in our movement, but they are very competent to HARM our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.“ (SPL April 28, 1974)
And again on 9 November 1975, Srila Prabhupada ordered, “All my disciples should avoid all of my Godbrothers. They should not have any dealings with them nor even correspondence, nor should we give them any of my books, nor should we purchase any of their books, neither should you visit any of their temples. Please avoid them.”
Even in 1971 when Srila Prabhupada invited all his Godbrothers to the ground breaking ceremony and feast, he asked BV Puri Maharaja to go to Navadvipa to invite Narayan Maharaja. BV Puri Maharaja said he did not come, but rather said many things against Srila Prabhupada. So this is one of the devotees that Srila Prabhupada’s so-called leading disciples went to for ‘higher instruction’. No wonder ISKCON is in the state it’s in since his departure!
Srila Prabhupada made so many adjustments to distribute Krsna Bhakti throughout mleccha-desa, reducing the amount of Japa, allowing women to cook for sannyasis, receive Brahmin initiation and worship the Deities and even live in ashrams. No one else had that vision as it came from Krsna. Yes, Srila Prabhupada the “broad-minded” Mahatma was also entitled to devise the best way for initiations to continue (already quoted Viraraghava Acarya).
Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana states in his Govinda Bhasya commentary on Vedanta, that even if a disciple receives some teaching from another bona-fide source (siksa), he must present that to his own Guru Maharaja for confirmation. For us, since Srila Prabhupada’s physical disappearance, his vani is always with us in his original transcendental literature. He lives through his Bhaktivedanta Purports.
Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.
Your unworthy street sweeper,
Balaram das.
Balaram das Prabhu, Thank you kindly for your nice explanation about what our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada has to say about His own God brothers.
We also know and understand that Srila Prabhupada indeed had established the system of Initiation during His physically presence or absence in order to carry forward His movement which we follow.
However, that is not the issue, Prabhu. The issue remains as I simply asked for out of curiosity to know the philosphycally reasoning of HG. B.V. Puri Maharaja to reject Srila Prabhupada’s Initiation system after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance and what was his solution if any he was purposing for it.
Your explanation is very much appreciated.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar Puri Prabhu, as you state…
“The issue remains as I simply asked for out of curiosity to know the philosphycally reasoning of HG. B.V. Puri Maharaja to reject Srila Prabhupada’s Initiation system after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance and what was his solution if any he was purposing for it.”
Prabhu, I would not dare to try to understand the mind or intentions of HG BV Puri Maharaja, I am only repeating his words. As I stated above……..
“It is really inconsequential what BV Puri Maharaja felt or thought about that, as our only concern as disciples was the instructions of our Guru Maharaja.”
The GM tradition he followed was that the acarya head of the Math nominated his successor, as did Sridhar Maharaja to Govinda Maharaja (In this case Sridhara at first also only declared Govinda as ‘ritvik’, but later changed in his will to acarya..see http://www.scsmath.com/docs/successor.html#lwat ).
So it seems he thought that’s also what Srila Prabhupada should have done. But of course Srila Prabhupada decided the best and only process for ISKCON was to continue the ritvik system after his physical disappearance and that is really all that matters to us disciples of Srila Prabhupada, not what BV Puri Maharaja thinks or does.
If you listen to the later interviews and also at the end of this one, it is obvious that he doesn’t agree with “ritvik system after disappearance”, but also doesn’t offer any alternative except the GM system he knew and followed.
So prabhu, as I said at the start of my previous post, my intention in quoting HG BV Puri Maharaja, a non envious and trusted Godbrother of Prabhupada, was just to give further evidence that Srila Prabhupada had mandated the ritvik system to continue, regardless of whether BV Puri Maharaja agreed or not. I trust this explanation is satisfactory, as I don’t have anything more I can contribute from my very limited intelligence.
Yhs,
Balaram das
Balaram das Prabhu, your humble insight has shed more light when you say this ;
” If you listen to the later interviews and also at the end of this one, it is obvious that he doesn’t agree with “ritvik system after disappearance”, but also doesn’t offer any alternative except the GM system he knew and followed. ”
Yes indeed B.V. Puri Maharaja does not agree with the “ritvik system after disappearance”, which is quite obvious that the Ritvik system of Srila Prabhupada’s Initiation after disappearance does not agree with his very own position he occupies himself as a self made guru/acaraya as per others ( his Godborthers ) in GM system hold their respective guru positions after the disappearance of HDG SBSST Organization. That is what they were expecting perhaps from Srila Prabhupada to follow the same GM tradition . But…..alas ……. Srila Prabhupada did not do it because He knew very well what to do as per the Sastras.
That is why the GM leaders/gurs including B.V.Puri Maharaja do not have any alternative solution as per Sastras. Whereas Ritvik system of Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions does correspond and agree with the Sastras as pointed out in your comments, Prabhu, to which these people i.e. not only the GM self made gurus but the present Iskcon gurus also do reject Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions of Initiation because Srila Prabupada Instructions of Initiations do not suit their self made guru position.
That is preciously the problem.
Thank you once again, Balaram das Prabhu, for your insight.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Yes Prabhu, that is exactly the truth as Srila Prabhupada stated in 1974 letter to Rupanuga das.
…” So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them.”
Also we have to ask the question….viz If our Guru Maharaja gives an order confirmed in July 9th letter/document (that has also been confirmed by BV Puri Maharaja), but BV Puri Maharaja doesn’t agree with it, then who do we follow!! Of course as disciples of Srila Prabhupada, we follow his instruction exclusively.
Those who criticize the ritvik system, are actually criticizing and blaspheming Srila Prabhupada himself, as that was his order, like it or not, as confirmed by EVIDENCE from BV Puri Maharaja. So even though they may try to argue on the point of sastra and GM ‘higher authorities’ (ha ha) that it is not bona fide, we don’t give a fig for their opinions, as the order of Prabhupada is supreme for a disciple.
Apart from them trying to claim that Srila Prabhupada’s order is not bona fide, they have the audacity to then introduce a completely un-sastric system of rubber stamping unqualified conditioned souls as Maha Bhagavata diksa gurus. Where is the sastric evidence for that nonsense!
The mind boggles, as Srila Prabhupada wrote specifically AGAINST this in the 1974 letter to Rupanuga. Unfortunately the ‘rort’ is now so deeply systemic in ISKCON, that it appears just an empty shell of when His Divine Grace was personally here, just as the GM became asara, it seems history repeating.
Your unworthy servant,
Balaram das.
Thanks for the post from Balarama das. Its a cooling balm to read such a well written article.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada !!
Unfortunately, B.V. Puri Maharaja confirms ORDER of Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik system as CONDITIONAL which is valid during His physical appearance only. That is how he interpreted July 9th letter in which there is no mention of either presence or absence.
As it appears that he did interpret as such so that he could justify and relate it to his very own present guru position which is in align traditionally with his other god brothers occupying as gurus in their different Maths in the GM.
Balaram das Prabhu questions further in his comments ;
” Apart from them trying to claim that Srila Prabhupada’s order is not bona fide, they have the audacity to then introduce a completely un-sastric system of rubber stamping unqualified conditioned souls as Maha Bhagavata diksa gurus. Where is the sastric evidence for that nonsense! ”
The answer is very simple ,Prabhu, that there is no Sastric evidence for that nonsense.
If there was indeed any answer according to the Sastras, B.V. Puri Maharaja had spoken so but he only said that the Ritvik Order of Srila Prabhupada is valid only till His physically presence simply to protect not only his very own guru position but his god brother’s guru positions in the GM also.
That is how the present Iskcon management with regard to the guru position of rubber stamping intends to carry forward their agenda.
However, Lord Shri Krishna is so kind and merciful that He sanctions every one’s personal desire.
OM TAT SAT.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The thing about Gaudiya Math is that they are PROUD and will always take the words of Sridhar Maharaja ‘over’ Srila Prabhupada because they believe that Westerners are ‘below’ them when it comes siddhanta and sastra, this is why they REMAIN impotent and compromised and why their ‘western sannyasis’ who join them are just lap dogs, forced to ‘accept’ the offences made towards Srila Prabhupada by ‘irrelevant’ personalities like Narayana Swami.
Srila Prabhupada has stated many times that Sridhar Maharaja DESTROYED the mission of his Guru Maharaja (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja), so the Idea that Sridhar could ‘appoint’ some conditioned souls as ‘Acharya’ is particularly MEANINGLESS to the point of beying ridiculous, what to speak of beying completely BOGUS and not in line with correct, sastric practices.
Puri Maharaja also ‘went along’ with this Idea of Sridhar’s for what reason I do not know (perhaps he didn’t want to be ‘offside’ with the rest of Gaudiya Math, godbrothers). It is Srila Prabhupada’s order that is of supreme importance here (as Balarama Prabhu has rightly stated) because He is the Acharya and sole successor of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja Prabhupada and it is His order that is PARAMOUNT in every sense of the word. With all due respect to Puri Maharaja, he clearly had some deep affection for Srila Prabhupada and His Divine Grace noted that he (PM) was the ONLY one of His godbrothers that was NOT ENVIOUS of Him, is entitled to his view but still Srila Prabhupada’s order is what should be FOLLOWED BY THOSE WHO ARE HIS DISCIPLES/FOLLOWERS!
What occurred/is occurring in ISKCON and also Gaudiya Math is what happens when the words of the Acharya are not followed it is as simple as that. In an Ideal scenario Gaudiya Math and Iskcon should not only recognise Srila Prabhupada as Acharya but also follow his instructions and give up their ”controlling, gunda mentalities” and the whole world would become transformed. But the sad reality is because both of these organisations are ENVIOUS of His Divine Grace they are just ALL sudras (or worse) content to ”pick the pockets of society” and engage in sabotaging Srila Prabhupada’s mission for their own personal agendas.
Many thanks to the other Vaisnavas who have made valuable contributions to this ‘ongoing’ debate (and others also) it is by having such an open forum such as this, that the truth can be revealed. “Authorities” in FISKCON nor Gaudiya Math rarely speak in an such an open forum because they are essentially sudras with ZERO intelligence and spiritual purity and would be easily DEFEATED by most of the sincere vaisnavas who regularly write submissions/comments on Prabhupada News. These so-called “leaders” are only ANIMATED when they are surrounded by their unfortunate “minions and sycophants” but when it comes down to the wire they are just ineffectual, impotent, cowards intent on trying to take the limelight away from His Divine Grace.
All glories to the sincere Vaisnava’s around the whole Globe who have accepted the truth and hold within their hearts the blessings of His Divine Grace Jagat Guru Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada. I pray that I may be just a speck of dirt at His Lotus Feet.
Daso Smi
sudarsana