Were YOU ordered to become a Diksa Guru?

Comments

1. Krishna das says:

   20. March 2013 at 6:45 am

   You have still not answered my one question. Do you have any evidence that it is not possible for Prabhupada to personally instruct his disciples to become spiritual masters. You may say there is no written or tape recording. If that is the case there is no recording of authorization of Prabhupada also. So, how can you answer this? Until you answer this satisfactorily, all your other arguments are vayasa tirtha(place of piligrimage for crows) because they will not give Krishna prema

   Reply
2. Mahesh Raja says:

   20. March 2013 at 8:46 am

   Krishna das:You have still not answered my one question. Do you have any evidence that it is not possible for Prabhupada to personally instruct his disciples to become spiritual masters

   Mahesh: your question is simply foolishness and COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT – because ONLY the PROMINENT Acarya is to be FOLLOWED and Srila Prabhupada is THAT prominent Acarya we FOLLOW:

   Note: ONLY Srila Prabhupada will lay claim to be PROMINENT ACARYA to be FOLLOWED because of his books,cds,tapes, disciples, temples so extensive over the world for FUTURE generations OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS:

   68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
   Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.

   Note:aside from this from the above many mad men may say they are in communication with Srila Prabhupada WHY should we accept these MADMEN when the PROMINENT Acarya is Srila Prabhupada?

   Reply
3. Krishna das says:

   20. March 2013 at 10:54 am

   Prabhupada has also said in the same statement posted by you as :

   >> There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession.

   He means that there are many other Gurus but it is not possible to keep track of all of them. He doesn’t say that just because only prominent acharyas are listed in the disciplic succession, you will use this argument and take Prabhupada as Guru because he is the prominent acharya. He has also said that there are other Gurus also but it is not possible for us to keep track of them while noting the parampara. Prabhupada spoke these statements in a different context. It still doesn’t prove that Prabhupada has not ordered his followers to become spiritual masters.

   Reply
4. mark says:

   20. March 2013 at 4:52 pm

   Krsna das,

   Srila Prabhupada could have ordered one of his disciples to to BE (AS IN IMMEDIATELY ACT AS) an initiating spiritual master. And he continues to have the power to do so at any time.

   Unlike the past acaryas of our Parampara, AC.Bhaktivedanta swami and his Diksa Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami, created a situation unique to their time place and circumstance. On the order of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, they created a singularly unique societal institution based upon Daiva Varnasrama, the pancaratrika viddhi, and a few other unique formal adjustments made by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami himself.

   Thus they attempted to extend their asrama beyond the walls of their personal home or base temple. There was to be a uniformity to the standards (rules and regulations of sadhana) everywhere Bhakti yoga was practiced under their auspices. Every Iskcon temple anywhere in the world.

   Traditionally, one who has the advanced qualifications as well as an order to be a Diksa Guru, also gives unique instructions setting standards for their disciples within the boundaries of their asrama. Simultaneously all such Diksa Gurus were expected to repeat the Gaudiya Siddhanta exactly as given by the scriptures. They were not required, or expected, to instruct their disciples in daily sadhana practices exactly uniform to the prominent Acarya of the day, for there were often many as qualified as the prominent acarya to adjust standards, and that is the way the lila unfolded. Other than each bhajana kutir or home asrama there were no institutions created to extend standards to the disciples of others.

   Iskcon is the asrama of Srila Prabhupada. All of Iskcon. There was no reason for Srila Prabhupada to name anyone to be an Initiating Spiritual master who initiates disciples on their own behalf, because there is no need for any devotee to make changes to the standard sadhana within Iskcon. The standards are set. The Founder Acarya made all the adjustments necessary and specifically said not to change anything.

   This is why it is only necessary to have priests to fill the role of initiating on behalf of the Founder.

   The most qualified members of Iskcon will already be presidents of temples, and will be the ones examining new aspirants. They will then act as priests giving initiation on behalf of the Founder, once their recommendation has been accepted by whoever the Senior regional man is (“ritvik”). Also this means they don’t need to be qualified as uttamas, or even advanced madhyamas, in order to initiate many new devotees.

   These temple presidents already have NO authority to change any of Srila Prabhupada’s standards.

   If they were Diksa Gurus, they would have the authority to do whatever they wanted, including order new devotes to worship them like the Founder was worshipped.

   Prabhupada “It is also an offense to consider an empowered Vaisnava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give him advice or to correct him. One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaisnava and an advanced Vaisnava by their activities. The advanced Vaisnava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is the sum and substance of Srila Rupa Gosvami’s advice in the sixth verse.”

   (NOI 6 – Purport)

   Now, granted, a temple president still has the free will to decide to change standards. But they will have a lot harder time convincing devotees that they have the authority to do so, when they have already acknowledged that they are only Siksa gurus beholden to follow the Founder’s siksa, and that all devotees in the society are initiated disciples of the Founder.

   As you can see, when you have 50 people claiming to be uttama liberated Diksa Gurus, divinely authorized to change standards for their “own disciples”, they have a lot more space to argue and defend their position to change the standards of Iskcon “in their own area”.

   And then you have the mess we have today.

   If you like that, enjoy it while you can, I predict the Lord is going to quickly destroy the whole thing because it has become so offensive.

   Hare Krsna

   Reply
5. SG says:

   20. March 2013 at 6:11 pm

   SB Canto 4.2, Ch.12, Text 32 and 33. First Print 1974.

   Dhruva was seated in the transcendental airplane, which was
   just about to start, when he remembered his poor mother,
   Suniti. He thought to himself, “How shall I go alone to
   the Vaikuntha planet and leave behind my poor mother?”
   The great associates of Vaikunthaloka, Nanda and Sunanda,
   could understand the mind of Dhruva Maharaja, and thus
   they showed him that his mother, Suniti, was going forward
   in another plane.

   Srila Prabhupada explains :

   Dhruva had a feeling of obligation to his mother, Suniti. lt was Suniti
   who gave him the clue which had enabled him to now be personally carried
   to the Vaikuntha planet by the associates of Lord Visnu. He now remembered
   her and wanted to take her with him. Actually, Dhruva Maharaja’s
   mother, Suniti, was his patha-pradarsaka-guru.

   PATHA-PRADARSAKA-GURU MEANS THE GURU OR THE
   SPIRITUAL MASTER WHO SHOWS THE WAY. SUCH A
   GURU IS SOMETIMES CALLED SIKSA GURU.

   Although Narada Muni was his diksa-guru (initiating spiritual master),
   Suniti, his mother, was the first who gave him instruction on how to
   achieve the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

   IT IS THE DUTY OF THE SIKSA-GURU OR THE DIKSA-GURU
   TO INSTRUCT THE DISCIPLE IN THE RIGHT WAY, AND IT
   DEPENDS ON THE DISCIPLE TO EXECUTE THE PROCESS.
   ACCORDING TO SASTRIC INJUNCTIONS, THERE IS NO
   DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SIKSA-GURU AND DIKSA-GURU, AND
   GENERALLY THE SIKSA-GURU LATER ON BECOME THE DIKSA-GURU.

   Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could
   not become Dhruva Maharaja’s diksa-guru. Still, he was not less
   obliged to Suniti. There was no question of carrying Narada Muni
   to Vaikunthaloka, but Dhruva Maharaja thought of his mother.

   Whatever plan the Supreme Personality of Godhead contemplates
   immediately fructifies. Similarly, a devotee who is completely
   dependent on the Supreme Lord can also fulfill his wishes by
   the grace of the Lord. The Lord fulfills His wishes independently,
   but a devotee fulfills his wishes simply by being dependent on
   the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore as soon as
   Dhruva Maharaja thought of his poor mother, he was assured by
   the associates of Visnu that Suniti was also going to Vaikunthaloka
   in another plane. Dhruva Maharaja had thought that he was going
   alone to Vaikunthaloka, leaving behind his mother, which was not very
   auspicious because people would criticize him for going alone to
   Vaikunthaloka and not carrying with him Suniti, who had given him
   so much. But Dhruva also considered that he was not personally
   the Supreme. Therefore, if Krsna fulfilled his desires, only then
   would it be possible. Krsna could immediately understand his mind,
   and He told him that his mother was also going with him. This incident
   proves that a pure devotee like Dhruva Maharaja can fulfill all his
   desires; by the grace of the Lord, he becomes exactly like the Lord,
   and thus whenever he thinks of anything, his wish is immediately
   fulfilled.

   THIS INCIDENT PROVES THAT THE SIKSA OR DIKSA-GURU
   WHO HAS A DISCIPLE WHO STRONGLY EXECUTES DEVOTIONAL
   SERVICE LIKE DHRUVA MAHARAJA CAN BE CARRIED BY THE
   DISCIPLE EVEN THOUGH THE INSTRUCTOR IS NOT AS ADVANCED.

   Although Suniti was an instructor to Dhruva Maharaja, she could not go
   to the forest because she was a woman, nor could she execute austerities
   and penances as Dhruva Maharaja did. Still, Dhruva Maharaja was able to
   take his mother with him. Similarly, Prahlada Maharaja also delivered
   his atheistic father, Hiranyakasipu. The conclusion is that a disciple
   or an offspring who is a very strong devotee can carry with him to
   Vaikunthaloka either his father, mother or siksa or diksa-guru.
   Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura used to say, “If I could
   perfectly deliver even one soul back home, back to Godhead,
   I would think my mission-propagating Krsna consciousness-to be
   successful.”

   THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS SPREADING
   NOW ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND SOMETIMES I THINK
   THAT THOUGH I AM CRIPPLED IN MANY WAYS, IF ONE
   OF MY DISCIPLES BECOMES AS STRONG AS DHRUVA MAHARAJA,
   THEN HE WILL BE ABLE TO CARRY ME WITH HIM TO
   VAIKUNTHALOKA.

   HARE KRSNA.

   Reply
6. Kausalya dd says:

   20. March 2013 at 6:45 pm

   There is an agenda to ensure that fall-down of ISKCON gurus is prolonged. Thus these people want to make sure that Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement is destroyed from within making it look like home-made.

   In the past whenever they tried to destroy a religion from outside it did not work very well, martyrdom was created. Therefore to finish a religion from within happens by infiltration.

   Folks like “Krishna das” want to make sure that more ISKCON gurus fall down and turn Prabhupada’s former movement into an ineffective clown association.

   Therefore these people never mention the fiasco of forty-three fall-downs so far. For them there is nothing wrong with this, it is rather a secure of victory. Whenever someone suggests to have a secure bona fide diksha-guru system these fine gentlemen get furious like Rumpelstiltskin.

   On the other hand, Prabhupada states hundreds of times again and again that a spiritual master has to be bona fide. Where does Prabhupada state that spiritual master can bloop like Harikes, Ramesvara and 41 others?

   “One who is inquisitive to understand the highest goal and benefit of life must approach a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him.” A serious disciple must be alert when selecting a bona fide spiritual master. He must be sure that the spiritual master can deliver all the transcendental necessities.
   (Madhya-lila 24.330)

   Reply
7. Amar Puri says:

   20. March 2013 at 7:30 pm

   Krishna das writes in his comments ;

   ” …………… He has also said that there are other Gurus also but it is not possible for us to keep track of them while noting the parampara. Prabhupada spoke these statements in a different context. It still doesn’t prove that Prabhupada has not ordered his followers to become spiritual masters.”

   Yes, Srila Prabhupada has ordered his followers to become Spiritual Masters and so was the ORDER of Srila BSST to His disciples because the ORDER comes from Shri Krishna Chaitanya Himself. No body denies that. First of all ONE has to become qualified and achieved the stage of FREE from all material desires. Then follow the Instructions completely in the foot steps of his previous Acharaya as our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada did it and became the SELF Effulgent Acharaya by His Extra Ordinary work of his activities under the banner of ISKCON world wide not in the same Gaudiya Math of His Guru Maharaja because in the Gaudiya Math His Guru Maharaja Srila BSST is present in the Form of His VANI and thus, no body can become Spiritual Master in Srila BSST Organization. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada started and established ISKCON world wide with the same message of His Guru Maharaja. That is HOW Srila Prabhupada became the Jagat Guru, the Spiritual Master of this Planet Earth not by VOTED in or APPOINTED by gbc bhakta Tom, Dick and Harry. OH hell NO.

   Now the question is how Srila Prabhupada intends his disciples to carry on his movement is all there in his Instructions for all of US, his disciples to become Guru. What kind of a Guru, simply to carry forward the message of Srila Prabhupada as he intends as per his Instructions, VANI.

   Otherwise, to accept disciples in Iskcon by becoming Diksha Guru, sorry, not a diksha guru BUT a BIKSHA guru i.e. looking for accepting disciples in Iskcon while Srila Prabhupada is present through His VANI is totally unbonafide.

   How did I form this conclusion, you may ask, here is the clue ;

   “TRANSLATION
   Praying at the lotus feet of Çré Rüpa and Çré Raghunätha, always desiring their mercy, I, Kåñëadäsa, narrate Çré Caitanya-caritämåta, following in their footsteps.
   PURPORT
   Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu wanted to preach the saìkértana movement of love of Kåñëa throughout the entire world, and therefore during His presence He inspired the saìkértana movement. Specifically, He sent Rüpa Gosvämé and Sanätana Gosvämé to Våndävana and Nityänanda to Bengal and personally went to South India. In this way He kindly left the task of preaching His cult in the rest of the world to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. The members of this Society must always remember that if they stick to the regulative principles and preach sincerely according to the instructions of the äcäryas, surely they will have the profound blessings of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu, and their preaching work will be successful everywhere throughout the world.
   Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports to Çré Caitanya-caritämåta, Ädi-lilä, Seventh Chapter, describing Lord Caitanya in five features.” [adi 7.121]

   NOTE, Dear Readers, : This would seem to indicate there isn’t any room left for another Acarya to come since the rest of the world has been given to Srila Prabhupada

   NOW let us understand by the tape of May 28th, June tape and other Instructions, a sincere person can see that the “gurus” placed a great deal of importance on this tape to substantiate their claims, but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru. But Srila Prabhupada, seeing past, present, and future, knew that this tape would be used to exploit the devotees.

   And so within this tape he planted one very important line that gives us the all-important clue as to what is the authoritative explanation on the subject of guru after his departure. He gave that clue by quoting “amara ajnaya guru hana.” Nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that a bona fide guru, a guru who actually sees Krsna face to face, can be appointed. The statement, “He’s actually guru, but by my order,” simply means that everyone is ordered to become guru by repeating what Prabhupada has taught us. It is not necessary to wait to see Krsna face to face to become guru and preach. Everyone should preach immediately by repeating what Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya have spoken. That is the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru hana” as explained below by Prabhupada. Everyone must preach from whatever level of realization he is on. But that kind of guru, and the actual liberated guru, are two different things. One is called diksa, and the other is called siksa. Anyone who repeats the message purely can become siksa-guru immediately. One’s wife, one’s mother, a prostitute, a beggar, a Godbrother, etc. Everyone is ordered to become guru in that sense. It is not possible to be ordered to become a pure devotee. The bona fide diksa-guru must be a pure devotee that is actually liberated. That is the conclusion of all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on these two types of gurus. This May tape does not in any way contradict those instructions.

   Srila Prabhupada’s quoting the verse from Caitanya-caritamrta, “amara ajnaya guru hana” (Cc. Mad. 7.128) is so significant we are herein quoting the entire section from the Caitanya-caritamrta. We strongly suggest that the devotees read it carefully. It fully substantiates the conclusions in given in Chapter Nine.

   “The brahmana (Kurma) begged Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life. (Cc. Mad. 7.126)

   “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Don’t speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of Krsna always.” (Cc. Mad. 7.127)

   Purport by Prabhupada: “It is not advisable in this age of Kali to leave one’s family suddenly, for people are not trained as proper brahmacaris and grhasthas. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised the brahmana not to be too eager to give up family life. It would be better to remain with his family and try to become purified by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly under the direction of a spiritual master. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If this principle is followed by everyone, there is no need to accept sannyasa. In the next verse Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises everyone to become an ideal householder by offenselessly chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and teaching the same principle to everyone he meets.”

   “Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in the land.” (Cc. Mad. 7.128)

   Purport by Prabhupada: “This is the sublime mission of ISKCON. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra…. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped…. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.”

   “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further advised the brahmana Kurma, “If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company.” (Cc. Mad. 7.129)

   Purport by Prabhupada: “This is an opportunity for everyone. If one simply follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His representative, and chants the Hare Krsna mantra, teaching everyone as far as possible the same principle, the contamination of the materialistic way of life will not even touch him. It does not matter whether one lives in a holy place like Vrndavana, Navadwipa or Jagannatha Puri or in the midst of European cities where the materialistic way of life is very prominent. If a devotee follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lives in the company of the Lord. Wherever he lives, he converts that place into Vrndavana and Navadvipa. This means that materialism cannot touch him. This is the secret of success for one advancing in Krsna consciousness.

   “At whosoever’s house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma. (Cc. Mad. 7.130)

   Purport by Prabhupada: “The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles and be freed from the contamination of material life….

   To protect his preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Caitanya-caritamrta.

   All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

   OM TAT SAT.

   YS…… Amar Puri.

   Reply
8. mark says:

   20. March 2013 at 8:53 pm

   FINALLY, OUR ANONYMOUS FRIEND “SG” issues a worthy challenge by quoting the purport to SB 4.12.33

   “THIS INCIDENT PROVES THAT THE SIKSA OR DIKSA-GURU WHO HAS A DISCIPLE WHO STRONGLY EXECUTES DEVOTIONAL SERVICE LIKE DHRUVA MAHARAJA CAN BE CARRIED BY THE DISCIPLE EVEN THOUGH THE INSTRUCTOR IS NOT AS ADVANCED…

   …The conclusion is that a disciple or an offspring who is a very strong devotee can carry with him to Vaikunthaloka either his father, mother or siksa or diksa-guru.”

   (SB 4.12.33 PURPORT)

   The information in that purport comports somewhat with a portion of the purport to NOI 5 which reads as follows.

   “In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiṣṇavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.” (NOI 5 PURPORT)

   —————————————————-

   For the purposes of Iskcon, however, Srila Prabhupada was so unlimitedly and causelessly merciful, that he has arranged things so that no neophyte needs to step into the role of Diksa Guru where he is unable to deal with the karma he will take on when he is unable to choose qualified disciples because he is not yet even capable of telling who is innocent and who is envious.

   He was so merciful that he has arranged thing so that no neophyte has to get pulled down by scores of rascal so-called disicples, and just pray that he initiates a more advanced disciple somewhere along the line in order to get back to Godhead.

   He was so merciful that he arranged for the possibility that everyone who approaches his HONEST and STRICT DISCIPLES within Iskcon, will not take the risk of being “insufficiently guided”.

   NO, for those who meet such HONEST AND STRICT DISCIPLES, they will be sure to be guided EXACTLY according to the SUFFICIENT GUIDANCE given by the MAHA-BHAGAVATA and Founder-Acarya of Iskcon. They will be fortunate enough to become receive that Merciful Maha Bhagavata as their initiating Spiritual Master, due to his Vasudeva Datta like all encompassing compassionate mercy.

   Furthermore these new disciples will be fortunate enough to have the secondary but sufficient guidance of an honest disciple of the Founder. A disciple who will give instructions according to his knowledge, and refuse to concoct an instruction in a situation where he is in doubt, but will instead look to the Founder’s Vani for the solution.

   They will be fortunate enough that the honest disciples who instruct them will not pretend to be more advanced than they are, requiring the new disciple to worship them as the Founder Acarya of the Institution was meant to be worshiped, and for good reason. They will not force the new disciple to offer them obeisances by pranama mantra 3 times per day, to offer them elaborate Guru puja, to offer them everything they own, and neglect keeping the Founder Acarya in the center. Which would inevitably lead the usurping disciple to become puffed up by receiving worship he is not worthy of, and drag him and the worshiper to hell.

   But if SG is satisfied with the risks involved in such things, he is welcome to found his own asrama and conduct initiations as he sees fit. He should just not do so on the strength of Srila Prabhupada’s name, fame, intellectual and physical properties. He should instead show the world what he is made of and strike out on his own “potency” and reap what he sows.

   What say you SG? Are you a man, or simply a mouse who will consume Srila Prabhupada’s entire pantry until you explode in horror?

   Hare Krsna

   Reply
9. Mahesh Raja says:

   20. March 2013 at 10:20 pm

   Krishna das:He means that there are many other Gurus but it is not possible to keep track of all of them. He doesn’t say that just because only prominent acharyas are listed in the disciplic succession, you will use this argument and take Prabhupada as Guru because he is the prominent acharya

   Mahesh: 1) Srila Prabhupada did NOT order them as Guru
   2) Only the PROMINENT Acarya is to be ACCEPTED and FOLLOWED – Fact! The Prominent Acarya IS Srila Prabhupada.

   68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
   Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.

   3) Disciple belongs to WHO GIVES the Discpline to him: ALL the Discipline is coming FROM Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON.

   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   WHEN I order
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Become Guru by Order, That’s All
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Ritvik – **Representative**
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Ritvik System Is Bonafide
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Formalities
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Brahmana (Kanistha)
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   The rescuer must be liberated
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Tattva-darsinah
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   He is not a liberated person
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)

   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Disciplic Succession
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Satyam – Truthfulness
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
   http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
   http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
   http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
   http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)

   http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
   http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
   http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth

   ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
   http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
   http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

   Reply
10. Mahesh Raja says:

    20. March 2013 at 10:38 pm

    SG quoted Srila Prabhupada, “THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT IS SPREADING
    NOW ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND SOMETIMES I THINK
    THAT THOUGH I AM CRIPPLED IN MANY WAYS, IF ONE
    OF MY DISCIPLES BECOMES AS STRONG AS DHRUVA MAHARAJA,
    THEN HE WILL BE ABLE TO CARRY ME WITH HIM TO
    VAIKUNTHALOKA.”

    Mahesh: SG you should take note that Srila Prabhupada is showing us his HUMBLE position of UTTAMA ADHIKARI this is NOT to be imitated:
    721104ND.VRN Lectures
    Because in the uttama-adhikara there is no need of preaching, because uttama-adhikara, he sees everything good. He does not think anyone is lacking Krsna consciousness. He says everyone is Krsna conscious, “Simply I am not Krsna conscious.” Just like Kaviraja Gosvami says, purisera kita haite muni sei lagistha. He sees himself lower than the worm in the stool… But he’s not so, but he thinks like that. So uttama-adhikari, it is not to be imitated.

    Reply
11. Mahesh Raja says:

    20. March 2013 at 10:47 pm

    Mark: I predict the Lord is going to quickly destroy the whole thing because it has become so offensive.

    Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada PREDICTED the ISKCON BABOONS will pose as Acaryas and their destination:

    Isopanisad 12
    THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–“One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
    THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

    Reply
12. Krishna das says:

    21. March 2013 at 7:21 am

    So most of you have one common argument, that Prabhupada established an independent legal organization, and so he is permitted to be a Guru in that organization. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura established his own legal organization, and so he is supposed to be the Guru there. In the past, Gurus didn’t establish any such organizations, so all disciples would be permitted to be Gurus. Is there any evidence in scriptures to support this argument of yours?
    Secondly someone has said that Prabhupada is a Guru because he formed an independent society, he wrote so many books, he went to USA at an advanced age, wrote so many books, initiated so many disciples, wrote so many books, so he is authorized to be a Guru. So what are you expecting, should someone becoming Guru leave in a ship on the same day of his age in a ship as that of Prabhupada, get the same number of heart attacks, initiate exactly the same number of disciples, write same number of books, establish a new society, then only they can initiate?
    Regarding uniqueness, all Gurus emphasize the 4 regulative principles and chanting the holy names of the Lord. How they make their disciples chant regularly is up to them. Is there any statement in scriptures to state that if someone gives the same rules to his followers that his Guru has given to him, he is not allowed to initiate disciples? And where did our scholarly Mr Mahesh find the name of ISKCON Gurus in the full purport of the Isopanishad verse?

    >>Mahesh: 1) Srila Prabhupada did NOT order them as Guru

    Do you have recordings of every moment of Prabhupada 24 hrs 365 days, even when he was spending time personally with his disciples? Only then

    Reply
13. Narendra Bhatnagar (Dharavi) says:

    21. March 2013 at 10:25 am

    It would be time to put up a donation box for PADA / Mr.Puranjana.

    Although Mr.Puranjana lives right next to Berkeley temple, for years this temple could not yet be converted to function as Prabhupada temple.

    Legendary San Francisco temple closed – what a disaster! Prabhupada put so much hope in San Francisco!

    When all those Gurukulis received $4,000,000,000 compensation they simply bought cars and drove away. Not a single Prabhupada temple was started.

    There is INDIA HERITAGE FOUNDATION, SRI KRISHNA BALARAM MANDIR at Sunnyvale, CA what is funded by ISKCON Bangalore. So there has to be an impressive temple for the Prabhupadanugas in US as a sign of acknowledgement for Prabhupada coming to USA.

    Reply
14. mark says:

    21. March 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Krishna das,

    Your summary of the material presented shows that you read it through your own cloudy prism and really didn’t understand at all. If I thought it was presented without clear specificity I would repeat it, but your use of language shows that you interpreted it in your own way, therefore there is nothing left to say because you are pretending to be asleep and thus cannot be awakened.

    Hare Krsna

    Reply
15. Mahesh Raja says:

    22. March 2013 at 6:06 pm

    The bogus GBC want to play at being ACARYA who gives Diksa:

    http://harekrsna.com/sun/news/03-13/news4734.htm

    So here is what they give as evidence to somehow or other try JUSTIFY their claim to be Diksa Guru:

    “This Krishna consciousness movement directly receives instructions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead via persons who are strictly following His instructions. Although a follower may not be a liberated person, if he follows the supreme, liberated Personality of Godhead, his actions are naturally liberated from the contamination of the material nature. Lord Caitanya therefore says: ‘By My order you may become a spiritual master.’ One can immediately become a spiritual master by having full faith in the transcendental words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and by following His instructions.” Purport to SB 4.18.5
    And…
    “A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession.” Letter to Janardana, 26 April, 1968
    And…
    “We may not be cent percent perfect, but as far as possible, if we follow the instruction as it is, that much perfect. In this way one will get perfection. So one has to follow. The same example, try to understand, that a perfect, expert technologist or technician or mechanic is working, and somebody is working under his instruction. So this somebody, because he is strictly working under the instruction of the expert, he’s also expert. He may not be cent percent expert, but his work is expert. Is that clear? Because he is working under the expert. Do you follow? So if you follow pure devotee, then you are also pure devotee. It may not be one is cent percent pure. Because we are trying to raise ourself from the conditional life. But if we strictly follow the pure devotee, then we are also pure devotee. So far we do, that is pure. So pure devotee does not mean one has to become immediately cent percent pure. But if he sticks to the principle that “We’ll follow a pure devotee,” then his actions are… He is as good as a pure devotee. It is not I am explaining in my own way. It is the explanation of Bhagavata. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186].” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.1-10 and Talk — Los Angeles, November 25, 1968

    Note: there is BIG DIFFERENCE between ACT AS ACARYA and BEING AN ACARYA.
    ACT AS ACARYA simply means OFFICIATING ACARYA. Officiating Acarya IS Ritvik. So as per July 9th 1977 Order confirms that 1st and 2nd Initiations are to be conducted by OFFICAITING ACARYA(RITVIK -REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA Srila Prabhupada)

    770528me.vrn Conversations
    Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to ACT AS OFFICIATING ACARYAS.
    Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
    Prabhupada: RTVIK, YES.

    Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE. The DUTIES are as per July 9th 1977 Ritvik Representative (Officiating Acarya) are DEFINED:
    Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
    Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.

    Note: Srila Prabhupada states indicates ACARYA is NOT a Kanistha. And ACARYA can NOT be appointed BY THE GBC:

    74-04-28. Letter: Rupanuga
    You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. IF GURU MAHARAJA COULD HAVE SEEN SOMEONE WHO WAS QUALIFIED AT THAT TIME TO BE ACARYA HE WOULD HAVE MENTIONED. BECAUSE ON THE NIGHT BEFORE HE PASSED AWAY HE TALKED OF SO MANY THINGS, BUT NEVER MENTIONED AN ACARYA. HIS IDEA WAS ACARYA WAS NOT TO BE NOMINATED AMONGST THE GOVERNING BODY. HE SAID OPENLY YOU MAKE A GBC AND CONDUCT THE MISSION. SO HIS IDEA WAS AMONGST THE MEMBERS OF GBC WHO WOULD COME OUT SUCCESSFUL AND SELF EFFULGENT ACARYA WOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY SELECTED. SO SRIDHARA MAHARAJA AND HIS TWO ASSOCIATE GENTLEMEN UNAUTHORIZEDLY SELECTED ONE ACARYA AND LATER IT PROVED A FAILURE. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them.

    Note: Although one can ACT AS OFFICIATING ACARYA in a NON-liberated platform they CAN NOT give DIKSA. This is WHY 1st and 2nd initiations are done ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the LIBERATED ACARYA. THROUGHOUT the process of DIKSA the INITIATOR is ONE : Srila Prabhupada

    Note:There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the INITIATOR spiritual master is ONE.
    KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
    Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

    Note: NON-liberated OFFICIATING ACARYA can NOT transfer into YOUR heart Krsna. However DIKSA requires for Krsna to be TRANSFERED TO YOUR HEART in order that YOUR RELATIONSHIP (SVARUPA) is REVEALED: this has been explained in detail:

    Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

    Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees(Srila Prabhupada) HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap.
    SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
    As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.

    Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
    So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA — AUTOMATICALLY.
    Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

    760711CC.NY Lectures
    Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
    When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

    Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
    The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

    Reply
16. Mahesh Raja says:

    22. March 2013 at 6:30 pm

    Krishna das:
    >>Mahesh: 1) Srila Prabhupada did NOT order them as Guru

    Do you have recordings of every moment of Prabhupada 24 hrs 365 days, even when he was spending time personally with his disciples? Only then

    Mahesh: NOT NECESSARY the FINAL directives eg July 9th 1977 RITVIK ORDER are CLEAR for US PRABHUPADANUGAS. The CROOKS who are PRETENDING TO SLEEP this class is USELESS.

    Reply
17. Mahesh Raja says:

    22. March 2013 at 6:46 pm

    Krishna das: Is there any statement in scriptures to state that if someone gives the same rules to his followers that his Guru has given to him, he is not allowed to initiate disciples?

    Mahesh: Irrelavant. ISKCON is ONLY for Srila Prabhupada as DIKSA Guru. July 9ht 1977 Order. Srila Prabhupada’s WILL etc confirms it. CROOKS can dispute – but who cares!

    Krishna das:And where did our scholarly Mr Mahesh find the name of ISKCON Gurus in the full purport of the Isopanishad verse?

    Mahesh: Judge by the RESULT:

    ISKCON’S conditioned soul bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus:
    WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
    by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
    FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
    FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
    FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
    FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
    FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
    FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.

    Isopanisad 12
    THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–”One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
    THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

    Adi 12.8 The Expansions of Advaita Acarya and Gadadhara Pandita
    One must judge every action by its result.

    Antya 3.143 The Glories of Srila Haridasa Thakura
    It is said, phalena pariciyate: one is recognized by the result of his actions.

    Reply
18. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    22. March 2013 at 8:34 pm

    “Krishna Das” receives news of stricken ISKCON gurus with cheers. Whenever an ISKCON gurus falls, “Krishna Das” responds with thunderous applause.

    In 1977, after only 10 years of Prabhupada lecturing in US there was great hope of spiritual life transforming US into a flourishing nation with nationwide efficient transcendental projects for uplifting the lives of not all people in US but all over the world.

    Instead what happened after all those in advance expected fall-downs of ISKCON’s kanistha gurus in US, this country became the biggest porn industry of human history, rise of suicide rate, rise of drug abuse, hundreds of thousands dead soldiers in useless wars. Of course this plunged the whole planet into rejecting the Sankirtan movement resolutely.

    “Krishna Das” receives this with cheers and sustained applause. No word how ISKCON’s epidemic fall-down performance influenced the spreading of the global Sankirtan movement negatively. How the whole world was thrown back by all those “as good as God” guru scandals.

    Thus “Krishna Das” never mentions the response and impact upon people in general all over the world, when having to deal with ISKCON’s “directly Hari (saksadhari)” presentation. He keeps silent as if nothing has happened, chuckles to himself.

    But he’s not alone, seemingly this is the intelligence of all present Vaishnava institutions to insist of having high risk candidates on top of their mathas and even fight like mad to have this false guru madness going on and to open up for more kali-yuga.

    Reply
19. mark says:

    22. March 2013 at 10:13 pm

    Cc. Antya 7.150 : TRANSLATION : Vallabha Bhaṭṭa wanted to be initiated by Gadādhara Paṇḍita, but Gadādhara Paṇḍita refused, saying, “The work of acting as a spiritual master is not possible for me. (More…)

    Cc. Antya 7.153-154 : TRANSLATION : Some days passed, and when Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, finally pleased with Vallabha Bhaṭṭa, accepted his invitation, the Lord sent Svarūpa Dāmodara, Jagadānanda Paṇḍita and Govinda to call for Gadādhara Paṇḍita.

    Antya 7.171 : TRANSLATION : There Vallabha Bhaṭṭa took permission from Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and his desire to be initiated by Gadādhara Paṇḍita was thus fulfilled.

    ** So, we see here that even in the presence of the Prominent Acarya’s listed in the disciplic succession, namely Sri Caitanya, Nityananda, and Sri Advaita, Gadadhara Pandit was ordered to initiate disciples on his own behalf.

    Actually, Gadadhara was an initiated disciple of Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who is considered another main branch of Lord Caitanya…

    “Puṇḍarīka Vidyānidhi initiated Gadādhara Paṇḍita for the second time” (Madhya 16.78 translation)

    “Puṇḍarīka Vidyānidhi later became the spiritual master of Gadādhara Paṇḍita and an intimate friend of Svarūpa Dāmodara’s. Gadādhara Paṇḍita at first misunderstood Puṇḍarīka Vidyānidhi to be an ordinary pounds-and-shillings man, but later, upon being corrected by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he became his disciple” (Adi 10.14:purport)

    ** Also noteworthy, is that Gadadhara Pandit is considered an important branch of Lord Caitanya’s tree of devotion, and he obviously took Siksa from him, and was even guided to his initiating spiritual master by Lord Caitanya. Gadadhara Pandit was such a prominent acarya that his disciple Vallabha Bhatta went on to become such a prominent acarya that Lord Siva’s sampradaya is now named after him…

    “These are twelve great authorities in preaching God consciousness. The name Śambhu means Lord Śiva. His disciplic succession is also known as the Viṣṇusvāmi-sampradāya, and the current Viṣṇusvāmi-sampradāya is also known as the Vallabha-sampradāya.” (SB 4.24 purport)

    “This Vallabha Bhaṭṭa is the head of the Vaiṣṇava sampradāya known as the Vallabhācārya-sampradāya in western India. There is a long story about Vallabha Ācārya narrated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, specifically in the Seventh Chapter of Antya-līlā and the Nineteenth Chapter of Madhya-līlā.”
    (Madhya 1.263 : PURPORT)

    ** Advaita acarya’s son was considered a disciple of Gadadhara, even though his father had obviously instructed him, and was adequate to the task of Diksa…

    “There is no information that Acyutānanda ever married, but he is described as the biggest branch of the Advaita Ācārya family. From a book named Śākhā-nirṇayāmṛta it is understood that Acyutānanda was a disciple of Gadādhara and that he took shelter of Lord Caitanya in Jagannātha Purī and engaged in devotional service.” Adi 12.17 : PURPORT

    ** Even more noteworthy is that Lokantatha Bhatta, one of Gadadhara’s disciples, went on to become the spiritual master of another prominent acarya listed in the Gaudiya disciplic succession, namely Narottama das thakur…

    Adi 12.88 : PURPORT :
    “The Śākhā-nirṇaya, written by Yadunandana dāsa, also names other branches of Gadādhara Paṇḍita, as follows: …(16) Lokanātha Bhaṭṭa (this devotee, who lived in the village of Tālakhaḍi in the district of Yaśohara and constructed the temple of Rādhāvinoda, was the spiritual master of Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura and a great friend of Bhūgarbha Gosvāmī)”

    And of course it is a fact that another prominent acarya listed in the Gaudiya disciplic succession in the Bhagavad Gita, Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji, was initiated by the Prominent Acarya listed prior to him, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura, who had already “disappeared” at least 50 years before Srila Jagannatha was even born.
    ——————————————————————————-

    The point of all the above is to thoroughly dispute those who claim that they have a comprehensive understanding of “the tradition” of disciplic succession in the Gaudiya Sampradaya. They quote “this etiquette” and “that law” followed, or not, by past acaryas, in a desperate attempt to support doing ANYTHING BUT what the Founder of Iskcon ordered.

    Any true tradition begins as a practice initiated by someone with the authority to do so. That tradition may last for only a single generation before it is changed, while the ESSENCE remains the same, which is the SUCCESSFUL transmission of transcendental knowledge by which one becomes a lover of god.

    And for conditioned souls, a period of guidance via instruction and practice is required in order for that knowledge to be fully imparted over time. ONLY A MAHABHAGAVATA CAN GIVE SUFFICIENT GUIDANCE and that guidance must be followed to reach the goal. PERIOD.

    His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada created a new tradition, creating a Vaisnava cultural tradition based on the essence of disciplic succession. The unique formal practices he instituted are to be followed, and those standards maintained as is, as they were what he deemed required for those who had no prior or present access to Gaudiya culture, in order to make their hearing and chanting a gradual success.

    If anyone thinks they can do better, get the hell out of Srila Prabhupada’s temples, take your show on the road, and PROVE IT.

    Reply
20. Amar Puri says:

    22. March 2013 at 10:27 pm

    It seems Krishna das does not believe in the Sun IF the Sun is shining because he does not accept the heat and light of the Sun is actually coming from the Sun. He takes it for something else what it suits his whimsical mind. That is why he wants a proof from the Scripture to validate the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada because he disOBEY the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada as it appears from his comments.

    Under these circumstances, what any body can do for him to satisfy his whimsical mind. Certainly, no body can do any thing because out of his FREE will he chooses it that way and hence, rejects and refuses to accept and obey the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

    May the blessings of Srila Prabhupada be upon us ALL.

    All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

    Hari BOL.

    YS ……… Amar Puri.

    Reply
21. Krishna das says:

    25. March 2013 at 10:52 am

    I knew someone will say the point that Amar Puri said that by asking Prabhupada’s validity, I become an offender. I am supposed to believe Prabhupada is a spiritual master without any proofs, but when it comes to ISKCON gurus, I am supposed to ask proofs.

    Also, again the same set of arguments, this guru fell down, that guru fell down. Ok, how does it prove that all Gurus are not bonafide? Also, if Mr Mahesh claims that in july 9th letter Prabhupada has asked his disciples to become ritviks, my point was how can that be treated as a final order? Can Prabhupada not have instructed his disciples after that incident as to how to conduct initiations after he leaves the planet? Do you have any proof that he has not done so? If you say there are no recordings or written documents to prove that, then such proofs are not there for Prabhupada also. But if I say this point I become a great offender against Prabhupada, I am supposed to believe him blindly. Sorry sir, your spiritual masters acting as ritviks teach you to believe them blindly, but our spiritual masters who are faithful followers of Prabhupada teach his message as it is that we must not believe in anyone blindly as Prabhupada calls it sentimentalism.
    And you highlight and put in bold font and do all types of designs on the statement of Prabhupada “Ritvik, yes” but nicely delete the statements in the same conversation “He is granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”. Are you 100% sure that you have understood what Prabhupada meant by Ritvik at that time without even being present there or asking those who were present?

    Reply
22. Mahesh Raja says:

    25. March 2013 at 3:10 pm

    Krishna das: And you highlight and put in bold font and do all types of designs on the statement of Prabhupada “Ritvik, yes” but nicely delete the statements in the same conversation “He is granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”.

    Mahesh: In the SAME conversation Srila Prabhupada states WHEN I ORDER. The ONLY ORDER that followed was July 9th 1977 RITVIK.

    770528me.vrn Conversations
    Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.
    Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.
    Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?
    Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.
    Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the…
    Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
    Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.
    Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.
    Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.
    Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?
    Tamala Krsna: No, he’s asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they’re officiating, giving diksa. Their… The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?
    Prabhupada: They’re his disciple.
    Tamala Krsna: They’re his disciple.
    Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.
    Satsvarupa: Yes.
    Tamala Krsna: That’s clear.
    Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer…
    Prabhupada: WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.

    Note: sufficient to say the issue has ALREADY been discussed IN DETAIL below – which why I do not intend to repeat:

    WHEN I order
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Become Guru by Order, That’s All
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ritvik – **Representative**
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ritvik System Is Bonafide
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Formalities
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Brahmana (Kanistha)
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The rescuer must be liberated
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Tattva-darsinah
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    He is not a liberated person
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)

    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Disciplic Succession
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Satyam – Truthfulness
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
    http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
    http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)

    http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    CON Trick from the Bogus GBC
    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34797#more-34797

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Reply
23. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    25. March 2013 at 4:36 pm

    Article by Ameyatma pr:

    Arguments against Rittvik debunked

    [….] In so many ways Gaura Keshava’s postulates were defeated. So many questions he kept refusing to address or directly answer. Yet to each new point he would raise I was able, by Krsna’s and Prabhupada’s mercy, to address and clearly show his points were faulty, if not totally wrong.

    Thus, I declared — and declare here — that this mentally concocted speculation that the July 9th letter only applied to while SP was sick is defeated. It lacks any evidence of support. The only verifiable evidence brings us to different conclusion. There are serious ramifications for accepting this theory, and those ramifications he refused to address. In this way the idea is defeated. It has no basis, no support and has serious consequences.

    Originally GK tried to use the Oct 18th conversation as evidence that July 9th only applied to while SP was sick. He said that July 9th, SP appointed rtviks because he was sick, and then said that in Oct SP had deputed the 11 rtviks to be regular diksha gurus because he was sick. I asked him, which was it? Had he deputed them to be rtviks because he was sick, or deputed the rtviks to be regular gurus because he was sick? How can it be both? He did not answer. What he was trying to assert was that on Oct 18th SP had deputed JP to initiate as diksha, not just as rtvik, because SP was now stopping THIS initiation. He claimed that THIS initiation could not be the rtvik aspects because he claimed that SP had already stopped those aspects on July 9th, and thus he claimed the only initiations he could be stopping in Oct was the diksha aspects.

    But, after praying to Srila Prabhupada what the facts were, SP revealed to me that he had not actually stopped anything as of Oct 18th. The 11 had not yet started to perform the duties he had deputed them to do. Not one rtvik initiation had been held. And the most unique feature of the July 9th letter was that SP had turned over to the rtviks the duty to make the final decision whether someone could be initiated or not. This, clearly, SP had not yet stopped because there he was on Oct 18th making that very decision regarding one Bengali man whom SP just made the final decision for him to be initiated. Thus disproving GK’s argument that SP had stopped those rtvik aspects back in July. No, he was stopping them, finally, on Oct 18th.

    Besides that, Oct 18th SP is referring to that PAST where he had already deputed JP, and all he had deputed in the past was as rtvik. SP also repeatedly referred to Where, in what document, he had already deputed him. It was There in That List, the List of Names which was the July 9th letter. He was not asking them to become diksha guru at that time.

    Also, I noted that SP told JP to initiate (via the rtvik process on SP’s behalf) that Bengali man because JP was rtvik acharya for Mayapur. Because he was the Nearest. One does not take diksha from someone, accepting them as eternal guru just because they happen to be nearest. In so many ways I kept defeating his [GK’s] points, and not one single time did GK admit, even once, that I was right and he was wrong. He just kept trying to come up with another angle, another point, somehow or the other to try and trip me into some trap.

    But he never answered most any of my questions or addressed the ramifications. And the unanswered questions were increasing with each new point he raised.

    The questions and ramifications demand to be addressed, because no matter what other angle he put forth, those issues would stand, irregardless of any new point. But in the end he remained silent and chose not to address the issues. At the end I reminded him that failure to answer was a sign of defeat. He ignored that and tried to push on with his plan to come up with new ways to trap me into some web he was weaving.

    It is accepted principle, and he quotes also, that to avoid replying means defeat.

    I am setting up a new website where i plan to post more detailed excerpts of the discussion and of the topic, to try to provide a place on the internet for propagating the arguments in support of the on-going rtvik side. I have the website, http://www.rtvik.org, but have not had time to work on it. I was about to do so when this discussion ate up all my spare time. But, the discussion came at just the right time, because now I will be able to incorporate the essential points of both sides and more conclusively present our arguments.

    The conclusion
    The speculative idea that the July 9th letter only applied to when SP was ill is debunked. It has no basis, no evidence to support it, and to do so has serious ramifications that their side refuse to address. Thus, it cannot be accepted. The Oct 18th argument that SP had stopped diksha initiation and deputed JP and the others to be diksha was also debunked. This was the main evidence the GBC and GK were using to support their theory. These arguments were shown to be insufficient and in the end, disproved.

    Also, in conclusion, I would like to point out the following analysis.These people are obstinate in thinking that they are right. I see 2 main foundations for this obstinacy:

    1) is that some are totally convinced that an on-going rtvik process is bogus. No past Acharya ever did this. It “has” to be bogus. For them, they feel there is absolutely no way Prabhupada could have ever meant this to be. They are so convinced of this that they try every which way they can to prove this is not what SP wanted… When the evidence shows it is what he wanted, they either ignore the evidence or try their best to discredit it. Many times they wind up discrediting SP in the process, but do not realize it. (Such as insisting that SP intended the July 9th letter to mean something totally different then it says.) That path leads us to question SP’s mental capacity at the time. Had he become senile? Absent-minded, forgetful, befuddled, confused? This, they will not answer. They do not believe this (and of course the facts do not support this), but they cannot answer the questions and so try to gloss it over and try to sideskirt those challenges to find another way to prove their loosing case.

    2) another cause of their obstinate behavior is that some are or very much want to become regular diksha guru. They are very motivated to want to prove that the on-going rtvik is bogus and was not what SP actually wanted. (They can be regular guru, no one can stop them. ) But, they cannot imagine how the two, an on-going rtvik process and their becoming regular guru can go on side-by-side. They kept arguing as if one nullifies the other. That concept was shown to exist only inside their heads alone, and in reality, both processes can go on, side by side. Even one person can be both a regular diksha guru for those who desire his direct shelter, and can facilitate a rtvik initiation on behalf of SP for those who feel their direct relation is with Srila Prabhupada.

    I wish to point out that there is also stronger potential to be motivated beyond the truth from their side. Especially those who have desire to become guru. Actually, they are free to become guru, but they want to become ISKCON guru. ISKCON has its guru, Srila Prabhupada. If they want to become guru, they need to start their own ashram, as Srila Prabhupada had done, as he set the example. All past gurus are gurus of their own ashram.

    What is our motivation? What do I personally have to gain by arguing that SP wanted an on-going rtvik system? The only motive I can find is my desire to establish that which I see that SP wanted. I have nothing to gain from promoting this stand. I have no disciples to gain, no dakshin to gain, no fame, adoration, distinction, profit, etc. Rather, the Rtviks are today put down by most in ISKCON. They are seen as deviants, as rogues and rascals, as fallen. We are called names, denied services, sometimes kicked out of temples, slugged in the face for trying to show others that the GBC has been wrong. Personally, I do not see that I have anything personally to gain, but have stood to lose a lot by taking this stand. Why else would I do so other than I am convinced this is what SP wanted?

    Aspiring to become your humble and most obedient servant,
    Ameyatma das

    source: http://www.hansadutta.com/ART_NAMHATTA/rittvik261007.html

    Reply
24. mark says:

    25. March 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Even one person can be both a regular diksha guru for those who desire his direct shelter, and can facilitate a rtvik initiation on behalf of SP for those who feel their direct relation is with Srila Prabhupada.

    Ameyatma is wrong here.

    Reply
25. Amar Puri says:

    25. March 2013 at 7:48 pm

    Krishna das writing is not even worth the time to answer because he has made his choices out of his FREE will no matter what any body provides PROOF from the Scripture to validate who is genuine (REAL) Guru and who is BOGUS guru when he writes as such ;

    ” I knew someone will say the point that Amar Puri said that by asking Prabhupada’s validity, I become an offender. I am supposed to believe Prabhupada is a spiritual master without any proofs, but when it comes to ISKCON gurus, I am supposed to ask proofs.”

    Therefore, I respectfully beg to end my conversation with him.

    May the blessings of Srila Prabhupada be upon us ALL.

    Hari BOL.

    YS……. Amar Prui.

    Reply
26. Krishna das says:

    26. March 2013 at 7:06 am

    >>What is our motivation? What do I personally have to gain by arguing that SP wanted an on-going rtvik system? The only motive I can find is my desire to establish that which I see that SP wanted

    Sorry sir, I can distinctly see one more motivation here. The urge to become equal to the spiritual master. The urge to get initiated directly from Prabhupada, the desire to have no authority above oneself who can correct.

    >>Mahesh: In the SAME conversation Srila Prabhupada states WHEN I ORDER. The ONLY ORDER that followed was July 9th 1977 RITVIK.

    And Mr Mahesh, that still doesn’t answer my question as to whether the order has to be explicit or can it be implicit, and whether the order must be recorded on paper or tape recorder or can it be personal?

    Prabhupada says on 17th August 1968 as follows:
    One has to hear it properly, assimilate it, and then practice it in life and preach the same thing. Then everyone becomes spiritual master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ‘sarva-desa: “O My dear disciples, I tell you that you, all of you, become spiritual master. Simply you carry out My order. That’s all.” “And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa. Just like Krsna gave instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, and if you simply place the instruction received from Bhagavad- gita as it is…”

    That is how he explained the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru”. Since we are following Prabhupada we must understand the verse the way Prabhupada explained it, not any mental speculator, howmuchsoever he advertises that he is following Prabhupada.

    Please read everything in the below link:

    http://krishna.org/prabhupada-on-his-disciples-becoming-gurus/

    Reply
27. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    26. March 2013 at 10:39 am

    You cannot hold the pure devotee hostage to what he said earlier. He has the right to change his mind. It’s the latest order (the July 9, 1977 directive in the form of a signed letter to all temple presidents and to all GBC men) that we are obliged to follow.

    Reply
28. Rakesh Joshi says:

    26. March 2013 at 1:14 pm

    >>You cannot hold the pure devotee hostage to what he said earlier. He has the right to change his mind. It’s the latest order (the July 9, 1977 directive in the form of a signed letter to all temple presidents and to all GBC men) that we are obliged to follow.

    And if that is the case, is there any reason to believe that there were no orders given personally after that which may not be recorded on tape or in writing, in the same way as there are no tape recordings or writings of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura ordering Prabhupada or Gaura Kishora dasa babaji maharaj ordering Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and so on?

    Reply
29. Bhakta Hugh says:

    26. March 2013 at 5:02 pm

    We have no known requirement coming from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura or Gaura Kishora dasa babaji maharaj to the effect that such orders are to be in writing.
    If you can find such then you have a point.

    Only Srila Prabhupada has made such a clear statement. Being aware of the level of advancement of his disciples and how false statements were being attributed to him, by them.

    He thus gave the following warnings:

    “Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that “Prabhupada said.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 2/9/75)
    “…just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: “Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 7/11/72)
    “Sometimes they say, “Prabhupada said it.” More misleading. Yes.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 3/2/75)
    “Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, “Prabhupada said.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 9/5/75)

    Reply
30. mark says:

    26. March 2013 at 5:29 pm

    Krishna das wrote: Sorry sir, I can distinctly see one more motivation here. The urge to become equal to the spiritual master. The urge to get initiated directly from Prabhupada, the desire to have no authority above oneself who can correct.”

    This is rubbish. Every temple has at least one brahmana as president, and maybe more. A new person accepts them as siksa guru. That Siksa guru must instruct within Srila Prabhupada’s standard guidelines already established. That means giving correction. God are you dumb.

    This is the position of 90% or more of those who support the ritvik system. It is in plain black and white in all of their comments. The “ritviks” are adamant that they will NOT become equal to the Initiating spiritual master (Diksa guru or Liberated Acarya) who is able to give any type of guidance they see fit to give, and are not beholden to any correction.

    Which is exactly the policy of non-ritvik Iskcon today. Anyone who gets voted as Liberated Diksa guru can more or less do their own thing without correction. They get worshiped as if they were Saskad Hari liberated acaryas.

    And when they have a conflict that arises from 50 Saksad Hari acaryas concocting different standards in the same institution, the one or the faction with the most power and influence forces the GBC to pass a resolution confirming the “new improved” standard, and all these other Saksad Hari’s are then subject to the disciplinary action of one of their fellow fakeroo Saksad Haris.

    Prabhupada “It is also an offense to consider an empowered Vaiṣṇava an object of disciplinary action. It is offensive to try to give him advice or to correct him. One can distinguish between a neophyte Vaiṣṇava and an advanced Vaiṣṇava by their activities. The advanced Vaiṣṇava is always situated as the spiritual master, and the neophyte is always considered his disciple. The spiritual master must not be subjected to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples. This is the sum and substance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī’s advice in the sixth verse.” NOI 6

    YOU are the offender with your defense of the indefensible.

    Reply
31. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    26. March 2013 at 11:34 pm

    Rakesh Joshi says: And if that is the case, is there any reason to believe that there were no orders given personally after that which may not be recorded on tape or in writing, in the same way as there are no tape recordings or writings of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura ordering Prabhupada or Gaura Kishora dasa babaji maharaj ordering Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and so on?Levels of Authority, Summed Up

    Hansadutta Prabhu has been offering a $108,000 reward since 1993 for evidence of such an order. So far, there have been no takers.

    From http://info.vedabase.com/index.php?main=home&content=whattomake :

    What to Make of What You Find [in the VedaBase]
    .
    .
    .
    Levels of Authority
    .
    .
    .
    In summary, a quick chart of the levels of authority we might accord to the materials in this VedaBase, starting with the highest, could look something like this:

    Books; Legal documents and similar papers
    Lectures
    Letters
    Conversations

    Therefore, according to this authoritative essay by Jayadvaita Swami, even ignoring which came first, the July 9th letter has the highest level of authority vs. the May 28th conversation/any alleged unrecorded subsequent conversations, which have the lowest.

    Reply
32. J Myers says:

    27. March 2013 at 3:55 am

    Hare Krishna,

    It has recently come to my attention that much of srila prabupada’s original texts have been changed and these versions are currently being distributed by iskcon. Are these documents on your page truely accurate to the original texts? Are you associated with iskcon?

    Thank you in advance for any response or direction in this matter.

    With warm regards,
    J Myers

    Reply
33. Rakesh Joshi says:

    27. March 2013 at 6:54 am

    >>Only Srila Prabhupada has made such a clear statement. Being aware of the level of advancement of his disciples and how false statements were being attributed to him, by them.

    I am impressed by the points presented by Krishna das. I think all are beating around the bush to his points but are not addressing it. Are you sure that no acharya had made such a clear statement before?

    >> Hansadutta Prabhu has been offering a $108,000 reward since 1993 for evidence of such an order. So far, there have been no takers

    That is because Prabhupada has expressed in a conversation that one must be curious within limits. That conversation, Krishna das has already posted elsewhere.

    Reply
34. Mahesh Raja says:

    27. March 2013 at 8:28 am

    Krishna das:And Mr Mahesh, that still doesn’t answer my question as to whether the order has to be explicit or can it be implicit, and whether the order must be recorded on paper or tape recorder or can it be personal?

    Prabhupada says on 17th August 1968 as follows:
    One has to hear it properly, assimilate it, and then practice it in life and preach the same thing. Then everyone becomes spiritual master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ‘sarva-desa: “O My dear disciples, I tell you that you, all of you, become spiritual master. Simply you carry out My order. That’s all.”

    Mahesh:Siksa guru means to preach what you know about Krsna to others. Sarasvati was a CHILD was she a DIKSA guru appointed by Srila Prabhupada? Just see HOW foolish this “Krishna das” fellow is:

    741003SB.MAY Lectures
    Just like our Syamasundara’s daughter, Sarasvati. She preaches, “Do you know what is Krsna?” Even one knows, because he (she) is child: “No, no. I do not know.” “Oh, Supreme Personality of Godhead,” she will say. She is so intelligent. She will say. So similarly, we can do. We can do Krsna’s service like this. Even a child can do. You go. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. That becomes… You becomes spiritual master. If you take this vow, that “I’ll preach only Krsna,” then you are spiritual master. You become spiritual…

    yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa
    amara ajnaya guru hana tara’ ei desa

    Just like that child, Sarasvati’s, preaching, “Do you know Krsna?” He says, “No.” “He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Simply say like that, “He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” and “Chant His holy name, Hare Krsna.” If you do this, then you are preacher; you are spiritual master. It is so nice. You don’t require to become very… Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. He does not say that you become a learned Vedic scholar.

    Note: Satsvarupa and the GBC went to ASK Srila Prabhupada about INITIATIONS in the FUTURE “particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us” . The ONLY Order that was give was RITVIK.

    770528me.vrn Conversations
    Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you’re no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.

    “Krishna das” can worship his ANIMAL BABOONS: we PRABHUPADANUGAS worship Srila Prabhupada AS OUR DIKSA GURU.

    Srila Prabhupada. “Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh. This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means “dog,” vid-varaha means “stool-eating hog,” ustra means “camel,” and khara means “ass.” If the Nobel Prize is given to a scientist who is a rascal, the men on the committee who give him that prize are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. We don’t accept them as human beings. One animal is praised by another animal. Where is the credit in that? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings.”

    Reply
35. Mahesh Raja says:

    27. March 2013 at 10:19 am

    Rakesh Joshi: Are you sure that no acharya had made such a clear statement before?

    Mahesh: You folks worship CONDITIONED SOULS BABOONS: we PRABHUPADANUGAS worship Srila Prabhupada as OUR DIKSA Guru this is why YOU ignorant fools can NOT understand even the MOST BASIC instruction what Srila Prabhupada says:

    731208SB.LA Lectures
    You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acarya, immediate next acarya.

    740615rc.par Conversations
    Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
    Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guna, they cannot.

    Reply
36. Krishna das says:

    27. March 2013 at 11:11 am

    Again, our dear Mr Mahesh has a set of bad words, ill language and nothing else, no philosophy, or rather some concocted hollow philosophy. When Prabhupada said “Ritvik, Yes”, he also said “He is Granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”. If Prabhupada’s statements would synchronize with each other, then we must take all these statements to be true, not only one sentence. We can explain taking all these statements to be true. It simply means that a ritvik is a priest (ritvik is derived from rtu meaning seasons). So this ritvik performs sacrifices, he may perform it on behalf of someone or even on behalf of himself. Is there any evidence in any of the vedic literatures that if a person is a ritvik he must perform the task on behalf of others only, he is never allowed to perform the task on behalf of himself? Is there any conversation of Prabhupada where he has clarified this meaning that you are sticking to?
    So you mean to say that Prabhupada was wrong when he instructed that Saraswati mataji is a spiritual master? If that logic is applied then Prabhupada telling Saraswati is same as Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura telling Prabhupada, and that would not be enough to authorize Prabhupada also? I am not intending to say Prabhupada is unauthorized but your philosophy implies so.

    Reply
37. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    27. March 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Thanks Dr Krishna Das, you consider yourself as very clever but you are stuck in a dilemma. You better side with those who have real knowledge otherwise you’re lost.

    You simply ignore that those of Prabhupada’s statements you’re quoting don’t mention 43 meanwhile fallen ISKCON gurus. One way out of your dilemma is to first of all explain what is the difference between your proposal and what ISKCON performed past 35 years and produced so many fallen “acaryas” that present ISKCON is rejected in educated circles all over the West.

    And you know it! You are aware but still take no action. That makes you look like suspect , untrustworthy, dubios. You recommend that the same type of trial and error thinking that ISKCON used past 35 years remains intact.

    At the same time here is the option to have a secure situation where no damage can happen: Srila Prabhupada. You reject it and and point to neophytes where nobody knows what will happen. This is most irresponsible. Vaishnava never would inflict this type of scenario upon innocent devotees that their guru falls because he was not qualified from begin with.

    You repeated this meanwhile 43 times and still argue that this is the right way to proceed. In any case, this is discussed since many many years. Of course, whenever there is another one biting the dust you look more confused and baffled. Who is your audience? Who listens to your explanations anyway?

    Reply
38. Puranjana das says:

    28. March 2013 at 2:18 am

    Right now everyone of my opponents (including Rocana) says, well there has to be a living guru. I reply, ok and what is the name of this alleged living guru? Their reply, not telling! OK, they are too ashamed to give us the name of someone who is implicated in the GBC / Gaudiya Matha goo-roo hokey-ness process. ys pd

    Reply
39. Krishna das says:

    28. March 2013 at 7:46 am

    >>At the same time here is the option to have a secure situation where no damage can happen: Srila Prabhupada

    That is not any option. That could have been an option only if it was authorized by Prabhupada. When Prabhupada has told “he’s granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”, that must be taken as it is and we as followers must be firmly convinced that these statements are statements of Parampara and can not be wrong. Following these statements strictly will never lead to problems. But if someone doesn’t follow the instructions of Prabhupada sincerely, he will be in problems. That easily explains what I am telling you and what is happening from past so many years. But just because there are problems one can’t concoct a new idea by reading some letter that is not meant to address this purpose at all but was meant for some other purpose (to give initiations when Prabhupada’s health prevented him from travelling, as proved by the sentence while composing the letter “India, I am here”, meaning he is speaking of his physical presence). We must put some effort and identify if someone is a bonafide representative of Prabhupada. Getting spiritual master is not easy, lot of struggle is needed. Please read how Srinivasa Acharya got a spiritual master, you will get to know how difficult it is to get a spiritual master. You people are told “There is no progress happening in those ISKCON temples” and “All gurus there are eating a lot of money and leading a lavish lifestyle” and “We are doing the greatest progress in preaching and book distribution and feeding the hungry” and so on and at last you are told “Dont associate with them and go to their temples”. Since you blindly believe your authorities, you never visit the temples and so will never come to know the truth.

    It is very simple to understand dear Puranjana prabhu, that while taking initiation Rocana Prabhu’s Guru was physically present on this planet, same applies if we want to take a Guru. Now he can still guide even in his physical absence. But if you don’t want to think on this point at all, then what is the point explaining. That is what prabhu may have thought.

    Reply
40. Puranjana das says:

    28. March 2013 at 2:06 pm

    No Rocana says there is always a living guru, and he says Srila Prabhupada is the posthumous, post samadhi, post mortem person? He never agreed with us that Srila Prabhupada is NOW the living person, he ALWAYS implies there is another guru who is living, he told me that in person, there is always a living guru present, that is the tradition, he also writes that, anyway — I said lets go meet the living guru now, lets go, and he stomped out on me, and has never answered ever since. That is my question, where is the living guru who is always present? Krishna das also forgot to mention who he is, is it Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, I just cannot figure out why — they never tell us these days? They used to say it was Jayatirtha until we shot that down. ys pd

    Reply
41. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    28. March 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Good news is that people all over the world know by now that “Krishna Das” not only insists upon installing a colossal risk factor – “gurus” posing as good as God, demanding to be worshiped as good as God, who might also bloop into material illusion at any moment. But he also spends millions to sue those who worship Prabhupada at ISKCON Bangalore.

    Unless someone is a struggling economic refugee who will fall for this? FYI, you position yourself below Christianity standard. Christians don’t have to worry that their representative of God, Lord Jesus, runs off. Officiating priests (ritviks) might be replaced, but Lord Jesus remains. So what do you want to teach Western civilization – that it is important to establish questionable gurus?

    When Prabhupada says the Sankirtan movement is without flaws (“Our Krishna consciousness movement is genuine, historically authorized, natural and transcendental due to its being based on Bhagavad-gita As It Is”), Mr. “Krishna Das” informs us that for the next 10,000 years humanity has to “cooperate, tolerate and work with the GBC and their conditioned gurus”, who might throw in the towel at any moment because they are after all humans and to err is human…..

    Of course thats what Rocana&co also repeat like a new mantra, living gurus are real, dead gurus are gone. What ISKCON Bangalore is doing is bogus humbug and we are the only genuine transcendentalists who save this world with our gurus like Harikes, Bhagavan, Kirtananda, Jayatirtha, Suhotra, Prabhavishnu, Tamal.

    And especially for Rocana&co it is important that due to this, Gaudiya-Vaishnavism is splitting up more and more into multiple competing mini-missions. No sense that the meaning of sankirtan is praising the Lord together?

    Might have been a similar situation when Prabhupada decided to leave GM for good and fulfill the order of his spiritual master single-handedly? Any suggestions?

    Reply
42. Krishna das says:

    29. March 2013 at 8:01 am

    >> he told me that in person, there is always a living guru present, that is the tradition, he also writes that, anyway — I said lets go meet the living guru now, lets go, and he stomped out on me, and has never answered ever since.

    Prabhu, you told that since Gurus are conditioned souls, they may have the four defects and so their testimony can’t be trusted. Is there a reason to believe that the above testimony can be trusted?

    >> But he also spends millions to sue those who worship Prabhupada at ISKCON Bangalore.

    Please visit Bangalore and find out who first registered the case and who started to sue whom? If you need the legal papers, let me know. I will mail the scanned copies of them. And when you speak of Christianity, you mean to say that you want to reach the level just equal to Christianity where the priest takes no personal responsibility of you. It is just that he does the sacrifice, takes the respect of guiding you and then when it comes to Karma, he points you to Prabhupada and says that it is all between you and Him. That is more cruel approach.

    >>Mr. “Krishna Das” informs us that for the next 10,000 years humanity has to “cooperate, tolerate and work with the GBC and their conditioned gurus”

    First thing is you people have still not answered my question, if some Gurus fell down how can you conclude that all Gurus are conditioned? This is not a sane logic. Secondly, if you never approach a Guru, but just rest sentimental faith on some person who acts as if he is very humble but indirectly takes the respect and the reverence of a Guru from you (your ritvik for those who didn’t understand) then how will you ever come to know whether the Gurus are really genuine or no? If you guys believe in your ritviks words without testing the truth by coming to temples, that means that they have already taken the position of being your Gurus without your knowledge and are fooling you in believing that Prabhupada is your Guru. Wake up, asking questions is not offence. Krishna recommended this process of asking questions and serving devotees.

    Reply
43. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    29. March 2013 at 12:45 pm

    Krishna das says: When Prabhupada has told “he’s granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”, that must be taken as it is and we as followers must be firmly convinced that these statements are statements of Parampara and cannot be wrong.

    Whenever we say anything about the July 9th letter superseding the May 28th conversation, “Krishna das” simply ignores it. He obviously has no answer. Stating that the May 28th conversation has been preempted, leaves the “intellectual class” rascals speechless.

    The “granddisciple” portion of the May 28th conversation is invalid for the following 4 reasons:

    1. Srila Prabhupada, on May 28, 1977, was surrounded by psychotic, “I wanna be a guru like you, Srila Prabhupada!” GBC madmen, and, therefore, might have felt a little intimidated. Also, he might have been simply trying to encourage them to continue with the burden of running their respective zones just a little bit longer by telling them what they so desperately wanted to hear.

    2. Srila Prabhupada changed his mind between May 28 and July 9, 1977.

    3. Signed, legally viable documents, such as the July 9th letter have the highest level of authority. Conversations have the lowest. (See http://info.vedabase.com/index.php?main=home&content=whattomake)

    4. We always follow our guru’s latest order, and if the latest order contradicts a previous order, then we ignore the previous order.

    Even a child can understand the above 4 points, but, as Bhakta Mark Prabhu pointed out earlier, you can’t wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.

    Reply
44. Puranjana das says:

    29. March 2013 at 3:35 pm

    Yes, when a GBC gurus falls down, the others cover it up and harass anyone who exposes the failure. I was kicked out of ISKCON by four GBC gurus because I complained that Jayatirtha was taking drugs and having illicit sex with followers. Yes, the fact is — that they cover up the crimes of each other — and proves they are all conditioned souls. They have also wrote documents saying “The Mahajanas Have Difficulties” (penned by SDG, Jayadvaita and co.) where they insult the Mahajanas in public documents. Yes, they are all implicated in these documents because they are “GBC approved.” ys pd

    Reply
45. Mahesh Raja says:

    29. March 2013 at 4:02 pm

    Krishna das: First thing is you people have still not answered my question, if some Gurus fell down how can you conclude that all Gurus are conditioned?

    Mahesh : that is a baseless statement. Since Srila Prabhupada has NEVER appointed any DIKSA Gurus. ALL he did was appoint Ritviks – confirmation July 9th 1977 Order. This so-called Krishna das(CROOK) has to PROVE to US that Srila Prabhupada appointed them Diksa Gurus in THE FIRST PLACE. It is NOT the other way round.

    The ONUS is on SO-CALLED MR KRISHNA DAS (CROOK) -TO PROVE- NOT us.

    SO THE ONUS IS CLEARLY ON MR SO-CALLED KRISHNA DAS TO PROVE IF A SINGLE ONE OF HIS BABOONS IS APPOINTED AS MAHABHAGAVATA DIKSA GURU BY SRILA PRABHUPADA. THE ONUS IS NOT ON US PRABHUPADANUGAS.

    SO PROVE IT! WHERE does Srila Prabhupada say BY NAME that this person is appointed by him as DIKSA GURU?

    ISKCON’S conditioned soul bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus:
    WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
    by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
    FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
    FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
    FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
    FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
    FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
    FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.

    This Mr Krishna das (Crook) is just another edition of BABOON follower.

    Mahesh:Siksa guru means to preach what you know about Krsna to others. Sarasvati was a SMALL CHILD. Was she a DIKSA guru appointed by Srila Prabhupada? Just see HOW foolish this “Krishna das” fellow is:

    741003SB.MAY Lectures
    Just like our Syamasundara’s daughter, Sarasvati. She preaches, “Do you know what is Krsna?” Even one knows, because he (she) is child: “No, no. I do not know.” “Oh, Supreme Personality of Godhead,” she will say. She is so intelligent. She will say. So similarly, we can do. We can do Krsna’s service like this. Even a child can do. You go. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. That becomes… You becomes spiritual master. If you take this vow, that “I’ll preach only Krsna,” then you are spiritual master. You become spiritual…

    yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa
    amara ajnaya guru hana tara’ ei desa

    Just like that child, Sarasvati’s, preaching, “Do you know Krsna?” He says, “No.” “He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Simply say like that, “He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” and “Chant His holy name, Hare Krsna.” If you do this, then you are preacher; you are spiritual master. It is so nice. You don’t require to become very… Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. He does not say that you become a learned Vedic scholar.

    Reply
46. Krishna das says:

    1. April 2013 at 9:18 am

    >>Whenever we say anything about the July 9th letter superseding the May 28th conversation, “Krishna das” simply ignores it

    I never ignore this point. I simply say that may 28th conversation started with the question about initiation particularly when Prabhupada was no longer with us. So it was meant to address that particular issue. July 9th conversation started with the talk regarding many people are waiting for initiations and what shall we do? It was meant to address that particular issue. But crooks have tactfully twisted the letter to make it address the issue of initiations forever, just because that relieves them of a responsibility of surrendering before someone who is in front of them and those souls trained and empowered by Prabhupada can be considered equal to us all.

    >>Srila Prabhupada, on May 28, 1977, was surrounded by psychotic, “I wanna be a guru like you, Srila Prabhupada!” GBC madmen

    There is no evidence for the above statement. If there is any, please provide the same here. On the contrary there are evidences which prove otherwise. In this conversation the word Ritvik was first used by Tamala Krishna maharaj when Prabhupada was repeating the words Grand disciple, disciple of my disciple etc. If devotees were in a mood to become Guru, they would end the conversation when Prabhupada said “he’s granddisciple”. But Tamala Krishna maharaj continued the conversation by asking “Is he Ritvik” which proves that they had a sincere desire to know the truth and were not just imposing things on Prabhupada. To accuse such sincere souls of doing treachery is the greatest vaishnava aparadha and that is causing a serious hindrance to the progress in Krishna consciousness.

    Even if I agree that Prabhupada has changed his mind on July 9th 1977, why can’t he change his mind again. Irrespective of whether he changed his mind or no, is it not possible for Prabhupada to give personal instructions to his disciples? Just like we don’t expect Prabhupada to present any written or recorded evidences of his being authorized as spiritual master, why should we expect written or recorded evidences for his disciples? And secondly, is there any evidence that the order has to be explicit?
    Prabhupada says on 17th August 1968 that he order can be implicit as follows:
    One has to hear it properly, assimilate it, and then practice it in life and preach the same thing. Then everyone becomes spiritual master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ‘sarva-desa: “O My dear disciples, I tell you that you, all of you, become spiritual master. Simply you carry out My order. That’s all.” “And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa. Just like Krsna gave instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, and if you simply place the instruction received from Bhagavad- gita as it is…”

    Reply
47. Krishna das says:

    1. April 2013 at 10:47 am

    Puranjana prabhu, you are a senior deovtee in ISKCON and I have great respect for you for the same. But if you had bad experience with certain Gurus, how can that prove that all Gurus are not bonafide?

    >>The ONUS is on SO-CALLED MR KRISHNA DAS (CROOK) -TO PROVE- NOT us
    When someone wants to bring a change in the standard process then the onus is on him to prove that the process is correct. He can’t question others to prove that the standard process is correct. My evidences, I have presented. Even my previous comment also has a reference to a quote of Prabhupada saying that the order can be implicit. This is a process going on in Parampara starting from Krishna till date. This is the standard process and Prabhupada has approved this standard process on numerous occasions. Whereas the new process presented by all people here needs approval. Prabhupada spoke of applying some process of initiation during his physical presence because he wanted the movement to expand and he was unable to move everywhere to give initiations to all those who were waiting.

    The evidence for this is, during the composition of the letter, Prabhupada said when the question of Indian territory came as “India, I am here” meaning to say that he was speaking of his physical presence. If you say that he is always there with us, then the question that arises is why is he always there in India alone. In every zone he must have said “I am here”. Now you tell me which one is simple to understand, this easy explanation or the newly formed twisted explanation? If onus is on us, onus is on Prabhupada also to prove about his validity, onus is on Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, on Gaura Kishora das babaji, on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and on the whole Parampara. Each of them have to prove with some tape recordings or signed documents.

    And when one is philosophically hollow, one again continues with his set of bad words, ill language etc etc

    Reply
48. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    1. April 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Krishna das says:

    >>Srila Prabhupada, on May 28, 1977, was surrounded by psychotic, “I wanna be a guru like you, Srila Prabhupada!” GBC madmen.

    There is no evidence for the above statement. If there is any, please provide the same here.

    Hansadutta Dasa, one of the original “appointed zonal acharyas/gurus”:

    I distinctly remember when I received the July 9, 1977, letter in Sri Lanka that it was clear to me that this letter was Srila Prabhupada’s arrangement for initiations for the future. I also remember feeling some disappointment with the obvious conditional authority that the “Rtvik representative of the Acarya” designation implied, because I actually had a great desire to be a Guru like Srila Prabhupada, and I think many of the leaders did have similar desires.

    (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=3m&TP=2837)

    Reply
49. Mahesh Raja says:

    2. April 2013 at 12:02 am

    Mahesh: this “Krishna das” Baboon worshiper CROOK is in the mode of IGNORANCE (tamo guna) THIS is WHY these TYPE of folks want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada OUR -ONLY- CURRENT DIKSA Guru in ISKCON with THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS ROGUES BABOONS posing as Diksa Guru.

    740615rc.par Conversations
    Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
    Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.

    Krishna das(Baboon worshiper crook):
    Prabhupada says on 17th August 1968 that he order can be implicit as follows:
    One has to hear it properly, assimilate it, and then practice it in life and preach the same thing. Then everyone becomes spiritual master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ‘sarva-desa: “O My dear disciples, I tell you that you, all of you, become spiritual master. Simply you carry out My order. That’s all.” “And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa. Just like Krsna gave instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, and if you simply place the instruction received from Bhagavad- gita as it is…”

    Mahesh: If the Order for Diksa Guru is IMPLICT then from Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s period ONWARDS there would NOT be any necessity to give ANY ORDER from the PREDECESSOR Acarya to be Diksa guru.

    BUT the FACT is the Guru MUST be AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER.
    THIS PROVES the ORDER is NOT IMPLICT:

    “Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he’s guru. This is the fact…Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.”
    (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972)

    “One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
    (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)

    Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
    (Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975

    It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977 WHERE is the evidence of THAT order NAMING the individuals as DIKSA guru?

    Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan:
    Prabhupada: “WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”

    “WHEN I order”– NO ORDER WAS GIVEN. On the contrary, the ONLY instruction that followed TWO months AFTER was as per 9th July 1977 Letter, that they were to act in the capacity of Ritvik Representative of Acarya and the disciples initiated would be Srila Prabhupada’s, NOT theirs.

    Note: ONLY Srila Prabhupada will lay claim to be PROMINENT ACARYA to be FOLLOWED because of his books,cds,tapes, disciples, temples so extensive over the world for FUTURE generations OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS:

    68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda
    Regarding parampara system: THERE IS NOTHING TO WONDER FOR BIG GAPS. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and SO THESE GAPS DO NOT HAMPER FROM UNDERSTANDING THE PARAMPARA SYSTEM. WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PROMINENT ACARYAS, AND FOLLOW FROM HIM. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. WE HAVE TO PICK UP FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE ACHARYA IN WHATEVER SAMPRADAYA WE BELONG TO.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Krishna das (Baboon worshiper Crook):
    Puranjana prabhu, you are a senior deovtee in ISKCON and I have great respect for you for the same. But if you had bad experience with certain Gurus, how can that prove that all Gurus are not bonafide?

    Mahesh: The Baboon worshiper wants to try his flattery on Puranjana Prabhu “you are a senior deovtee in ISKCON and I have great respect for you for the same.”
    Dear Baboon worshiper crook, I soooo hope you stick to your OWN words of greatly respecting Puranjana prabhu: http://krishna1008.blogspot.co.uk/

    >>The ONUS is on SO-CALLED MR KRISHNA DAS (CROOK) -TO PROVE- NOT us
    Krishna das(Baboon worshiper crook): When someone wants to bring a change in the standard process then the onus is on him to prove that the process is correct. He can’t question others to prove that the standard process is correct. My evidences, I have presented. Even my previous comment also has a reference to a quote of Prabhupada saying that the order can be implicit. This is a process going on in Parampara starting from Krishna till date.

    Mahesh: You do NOT know the standard process. You manufacture your OWN concoction and call it “standard process” Order is NOT implicit – “ AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER” Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport

    Krishna das (Baboon worshiper crook):This is the standard process and Prabhupada has approved this standard process on numerous occasions. Whereas the new process presented by all people here needs approval. Prabhupada spoke of applying some process of initiation during his physical presence because he wanted the movement to expand and he was unable to move everywhere to give initiations to all those who were waiting.

    Mahesh: What “new” process? As can be seen, ONLY THE FORMALITIES OF INITIATION – ceremonies 1st and 2nd initiation have changed, as this is offered on behalf of Srila Prabhupada by Ritviks (Officiating Acaryas/Representatives of Acarya). This in confirmation with 9th July 1977 Order. Diksa given to the Madhyama has NOT changed.” THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.

    Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54 Purport – Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest:
    “Those who are not actually in the line of acaryas, or who personally have no knowledge of how to act in the role of acarya, unnecessarily criticize the activities of the ISKCON movement in countries outside of India. The fact is that such critics cannot do anything personally to spread Krsna consciousness. If someone does go and preach, taking all risks and allowing all considerations for time and place, it might be that there are changes in the manner of worship, but that is not at all faulty according to sastra. SRIMAD VIRARAGHAVA ACARYA, AN ACARYA IN THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF THE RAMANUJA-SAMPRADAYA, HAS REMARKED IN HIS COMMENTARY THAT CANDALAS, OR CONDITIONED SOULS WHO ARE BORN IN LOWER THAN SUDRA FAMILIES, CAN ALSO BE INITIATED ACCORDING TO CIRCUMSTANCES. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.”

    (Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)
    “Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different than that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected.”

    (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)
    “An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread.”

    Note: in this Srila Prabhupada makes a point of Initiation as a formality this is different from Madhyama Adhikaris receiving Diksa
    761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
    Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.

    Whereas Srila Prabhupada DELIVERS by giving DIKSA knowledge the formality is conducted by the Ritviks (Representatives of Acarya).

    Krishna das (Baboon worshiper crook):The evidence for this is, during the composition of the letter, Prabhupada said when the question of Indian territory came as “India, I am here” meaning to say that he was speaking of his physical presence. If you say that he is always there with us, then the question that arises is why is he always there in India alone. In every zone he must have said “I am here”. Now you tell me which one is simple to understand, this easy explanation or the newly formed twisted explanation? If onus is on us, onus is on Prabhupada also to prove about his validity, onus is on Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, on Gaura Kishora das babaji, on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and on the whole Parampara. Each of them have to prove with some tape recordings or signed documents.

    Mahesh: We do NOT NEED YOUR BABOONS CROOKS to prove Srila Prabhupada about his validity NEITHER on Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, nor on Gaura Kishora das babaji, nor on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and on the whole Parampara.

    We ACCEPT Srila Prabhupada as OUR DIKSA GURU – AND based ON Srila Prabhupada’s AUTHORITY we ACCEPT the Parampara ACARYAS as HE has showed us. YOUR BABOONS are YOUR authority ONLY.It is YOU who is trying to PROVE them as Diksa gurus in ISKCON. We PRABHUPADANUGAS just don’t care for them PERIOD! Rejected as ROGUES:

    Isopanisad 12
    THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–“One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
    THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

    Krishna das (Baboon worshiping CROOK): And when one is philosophically hollow, one again continues with his set of bad words, ill language etc etc

    Mahesh: Just see! This Baboon worshiping CROOK he is insinuating we are philosophically hollow:
    Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute
    Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. THE TRUTH SHOULD BE SPOKEN IN A STRAIGHT AND FORWARD WAY, SO THAT OTHERS WILL UNDERSTAND ACTUALLY WHAT THE FACTS ARE. IF A MAN IS A THIEF AND IF PEOPLE ARE WARNED THAT HE IS A THIEF, THAT IS TRUTH. ALTHOUGH SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS UNPALATABLE, ONE SHOULD NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT. TRUTHFULNESS DEMANDS THAT THE FACTS BE PRESENTED AS THEY ARE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TRUTH.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    WHEN I order
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Become Guru by Order, That’s All
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ritvik – **Representative**
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ritvik System Is Bonafide
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Formalities
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Brahmana (Kanistha)
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The rescuer must be liberated
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Tattva-darsinah
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    He is not a liberated person
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)

    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Disciplic Succession
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Satyam – Truthfulness
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
    http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
    http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
    http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)

    http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
    http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
    http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    CON Trick from the Bogus GBC
    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34797#more-34797

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

    Reply
50. Krishna das says:

    2. April 2013 at 8:43 am

    And the set of bad words and ill language continues. Some people writing some concocted articles and the whole list pasted again and again will not make you philosophically very strong. I also know that the Guru must be authorized by his previous master. But my question still stands, must the authorization be explicit? Does it mean that Prabhupada’s words of implicit ordering are wrong? I will not agree that Prabhupada’s words are wrong.

    >>AFTER the year 1977 WHERE is the evidence of THAT order NAMING the individuals as DIKSA guru?

    There is no evidence of a tape recording or a written record after 1977 as much as there is no tape or written evidence of any previous acharyas being authorized. This is how Prabhupada has trained his disciples and his disciples have trained us, to question submissively and receive answers. Whereas you people have been trained to accept your ritviks blindly so that they will become your absolute authority without becoming qualified as is evident from Mr Mahesh’s words that “I don’t need any proof of any previous acharya or Prabhupada being authorized. I believe that they are. I only need proof of current Gurus being authorized”.

    >>You do NOT know the standard process. You manufacture your OWN concoction and call it “standard process”

    So you mean to say that when Prabhupada met Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and later got initiated from him in his physical presence, when Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura got initiated from Gaura Kishore das babaji Maharaj in his physical presence, etc were all concoctions and when Mr Mahesh met his Ritvik and when this Ritvik did a yajna in front of Prabhupada and told him that he is a disciple of Prabhupada without even asking Prabhupada, that is a great authentic process.

    >>It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order”
    and he also said
    And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa

    >>If the Order for Diksa Guru is IMPLICT then from Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s period ONWARDS there would NOT be any necessity to give ANY ORDER from the PREDECESSOR Acarya to be Diksa guru

    We don’t have any evidence of any explicit order at all after or even before Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the form of recorded tape or a written record. I don’t understand when did you feel the need of any explicit order, and also even if such an order is necessary is there any evidence that Prabhupada has not ordered his disciples personally?

    Prabhupada has clearly said “India, I am here” in the conversation while composing the letter making it crystal clear that it was meant to be operational in his physical presence. I have no need to flatter Puranjana prabhu. My spiritual master has taught me to respect senior devotees, but when we speak of philosophical deviations they must be dealt immediately.

    If Pratyatosha prabhu has presented one testimony as evidence, we can present hundreds of testimonies as evidences to prove that Prabhupada was surrounded by disciples who had all love for him. But will you accept our testimony? Then how do you expect us to accept the same? Please present us the evidences of the type that you are expecting from us.

    Reply
51. Clarisse Raimond says:

    2. April 2013 at 9:30 am

    Below can be also applied to the question, “What are the qualifications of a genuine spiritual master?”

    Prabhupada, Hawaii, March 21, 1969 ..So if I simply become angry, then my preaching work will be stopped. Do you follow?

    The anger is there, but because we are preacher, we have to… Just like politicians. They are angry upon the enemy, but sometimes, by diplomatic means, they take their work from the enemies. You see?

    Not that they show the anger always. Similarly, when you go to preaching, first of all try to convince him that, “How you become God? What is your definition of God?” You simply ask, “What do you mean by ‘God,’ that you are claiming to be God? If you come under that definition, then you are God.”

    Just like if somebody claims that, “I am millionaire. I am very rich”, a poor man, walking on the street with niggardly dress, if he claims that “I am rich man,” will you accept?

    Then he is crazy. If he is claiming that, “I am millionaire,” then you have to ask that, “Where is your sign of being a millionaire? You have no good dress. Your feature is so ugly. How you are millionaire? What is the definition of a millionaire?” First ask him. Similarly, ask him that, “What do you know about God? What is the definition of God? If your behavior and everything tallies with that definition, then you are God. I will accept. We are God worshiper. Then I shall worship you. But first of all let me know what do you mean by God?”

    Is it very difficult job? Let him define what is God. “If you claim that I am God, then you must know what is God. If you falsely claim ‘God’, then how you can be God?”

    You don’t you ask like this, that, “What is your definition of God that you are claiming God”? The same example: If somebody claims that, “I am very rich man,” but I see that he is a poor man, shall I not ask, “What do you mean by rich man?” By his definition he will be defeated. Ask him. Did you ask anybody, “What is the definition of God? What do you mean by God?”

    He’s a rascal. He does not know what is the definition of God, but he has got some conception that, “This is God.” Then he must explain, “I mean by the word God, this.” Then he will be captured by his definition, by his statement. Just guess what he will explain about God if you ask him like that. Did you not ask like this?
    Full Lecture

    Otherwise, after 20 years of back-and-forth debate, Prabhupada: “If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them.”
    (Evening Darsana, July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.)

    Reply
52. Mahesh Raja says:

    2. April 2013 at 2:22 pm

    Clarisse Raimond: Otherwise, after 20 years of back-and-forth debate, Prabhupada: “If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them.”
    (Evening Darsana, July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.)

    Mahesh: We are NOT for convincing the Baboon party – that was NOT the object. What I was presenting was for the BENEFIT of OUR Prabhupadadnugas that we CAN thrash the arguments of Baboon party crooks/rogues ANY TIME. When a Baboon worshiper speaks in its language what is there to hear? We ALREADY KNOW Baboons will simply be mischievious. We have seen the EVIDENCE.
    Best hear OUR BONAFIDE Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada instead.

    Incidentally – regards anger – there was none. Just calling spade a spade. They are ALL crooks. This is WHY Maya, Lord Krsna’s illusory potency is not letting them accept Srila Prabhupada AS DIKSA GURU.

    When a person is a ANTI Srila Prabhupada Diksa Guru Lord Krsna gives intelligence in such a way that this person MUST go to hell:

    SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
    A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.

    Isopanisad 12
    THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–”One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
    THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

    Reply
53. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    2. April 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Krishna das says: If Pratyatosha prabhu has presented one testimony as evidence, we can present hundreds of testimonies as evidences to prove that Prabhupada was surrounded by disciples who had all love for him.

    Please present even one such testimony which has equal weight as the humble, honest, heartfelt confession of Hansadutta Prabhu, one of the original 11 “appointed gurus.”

    I distinctly remember when I received the July 9, 1977, letter in Sri Lanka that it was clear to me that this letter was Srila Prabhupada’s arrangement for initiations for the future. I also remember feeling some disappointment with the obvious conditional authority that the “Rtvik representative of the Acarya” designation implied, because I actually had a great desire to be a Guru like Srila Prabhupada, and I think many of the leaders did have similar desires.

    (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=3m&TP=2837)

    Reply
54. Amar Puri says:

    2. April 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Dear Devotees,

    PAMHO.

    The Maha Bhagavata HDG Srila Prabhupada being the truly representative of the Lord Shri Krishna Chaitanya is in a Position to bring a change in the standard process for the benefit of the massive sincere and serious people who wishes to cultivate KC. One has to simply follow the Divine Instructions as it is without any interpretation to suit one’s agenda.

    Here is an example of those who have such personal agenda to protect and promote with INTERPRETATION best suit their agenda the comments of which reads ;

    ” The evidence for this is, during the composition of the letter, Prabhupada said when the question of Indian territory came as “India, I am here” meaning to say that he was speaking of his physical presence. If you say that he is always there with us, then the question that arises is why is he always there in India alone. In every zone he must have said “I am here”. Now you tell me which one is simple to understand, this easy explanation or the newly formed twisted explanation ? ………………”

    Here below is a partial reproduction of the comments made else where on this site ;

    Tam: Some devotees are writing you now for second initiation. And I’m writing them to wait a while, because you are not well. So can I continue to tell them that?

    SP: They can do second initiation.

    Tam: By writing you?

    SP: No. These men.

    Tam: These men. They can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who would give initiation is doing so on your behalf.

    SP: Yes.

    Tam: You know that book I’m maintaining of all your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?

    SP: Hmmm.

    Tam: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesh Maharaja, he should send the person’s name to us here, and I’ll enter it in the book. (Long pause) Is there someone else in India that you want to do this.

    SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.

    Tam: Jayapataka Maharaja.

    SP: You are also in India. (Long pause) You can note down these names.

    Tam: Yes, I have them. (The list is read, and Srila Prabhupada adds two more names-Hrdayananda and Ramesvara.

    SP: (Long pause) So without waiting for me, whoever you consider deserves. That will depend on discretion.

    Tam: On discretion.

    SP: Yes.

    Tam: That’s for first and second initiations?

    SP: Hmmm.

    NOTE: One very obvious question: If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape? Why was Tamala still trying to get Prabhupada to say something else? The answer is obvious. They hadn’t yet conceived their plot and dubbed the May tape. There is no mention in this tape of the ritviks becoming anything special after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. As such there is no question of construing an appointment of gurus from these two transcripts. But since the May tape was tampered with, not only is it not valid evidence, but it is conclusive evidence as to the demoniac nature of the “gurus”-just the opposite of the divine nature they claimed the tape represented.

    Another significant point is that Bhavananda and Hansadutta were not named in this June tape. Their names appeared on the letter issued to all centers that Prabhupada signed, but they were not named in this tape. No doubt some “good reasons” were given to Prabhupada later on to include them even though Bhavananda had only a year previously been caught by Pippilai dasa pants down, having sex with a Bengali boy in Mayapur. Just months previously, Prabhupada had said that Hansadutta was “praying daily that I die so that he can become guru.” Prabhupada was aware of the character of all these ritviks. Ritvik has no special authority whatsoever. He simply gives initiation on the guru’s behalf. Otherwise why would Prabhupada say, “whoever is nearest.” The common argument, introduced by Sridhar Maharaja is that, “Well, it only makes sense that if Prabhupada made them ritviks, they must be the most advanced devotees.” Sridhar may have even been the first to introduce that idea even though two years previously Sridhar had said that ritvik implied no special position.

    Aside from all that, Tamala Krsna has directly confessed (on tape) in the Pyramid House Talks, Dec. 3, 1980 that, “Actually, Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He didn’t appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.”

    The “gurus” placed a great deal of importance on this tape to substantiate their claims, but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru. But Prabhupada, seeing past, present, and future, knew that this tape would be used to exploit the devotees. And so within this tape he planted one very important line that gives us the all-important clue as to what is the authoritative explanation on the subject of guru after his departure. He gave that clue by quoting “amara ajnaya guru hana.” Nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that a bona fide guru, a guru who actually sees Krsna face to face, can be appointed. The statement, “He’s actually guru, but by my order,” simply means that everyone is ordered to become guru by repeating what Prabhupada has taught us. It is not necessary to wait to see Krsna face to face to become guru and preach. Everyone should preach immediately by repeating what Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya have spoken. That is the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru hana” as explained below by Prabhupada. Everyone must preach from whatever level of realization he is on. But that kind of guru, and the actual liberated guru, are two different things. One is called diksa, and the other is called siksa. Anyone who repeats the message purely can become siksa-guru immediately. One’s wife, one’s mother, a prostitute, a beggar, a Godbrother, etc. Everyone is ordered to become guru in that sense. It is not possible to be ordered to become a pure devotee. The bona fide diksa-guru must be a pure devotee that is actually liberated. That is the conclusion of all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on these two types of gurus. This May tape does not in any way contradict those instructions.

    Srila Prabhupada’s quoting the verse from Caitanya-caritamrta, “amara ajnaya guru hana” (Cc. Mad. 7.128) is so significant we are herein quoting the entire section from the Caitanya-caritamrta. We strongly suggest that the devotees read it carefully. It fully substantiates the conclusions in given in Chapter Nine.

    “The brahmana (Kurma) begged Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life. (Cc. Mad. 7.126)

    “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Don’t speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of Krsna always.” (Cc. Mad. 7.127)

    Purport by Prabhupada: “It is not advisable in this age of Kali to leave one’s family suddenly, for people are not trained as proper brahmacaris and grhasthas. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised the brahmana not to be too eager to give up family life. It would be better to remain with his family and try to become purified by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly under the direction of a spiritual master. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If this principle is followed by everyone, there is no need to accept sannyasa. In the next verse Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises everyone to become an ideal householder by offenselessly chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and teaching the same principle to everyone he meets.”

    “Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in the land.” (Cc. Mad. 7.128)

    Purport by Prabhupada: “This is the sublime mission of ISKCON. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra…. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped…. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.”

    “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further advised the brahmana Kurma, “If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company.” (Cc. Mad. 7.129)

    Purport by Prabhupada: “This is an opportunity for everyone. If one simply follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His representative, and chants the Hare Krsna mantra, teaching everyone as far as possible the same principle, the contamination of the materialistic way of life will not even touch him. It does not matter whether one lives in a holy place like Vrndavana, Navadwipa or Jagannatha Puri or in the midst of European cities where the materialistic way of life is very prominent. If a devotee follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lives in the company of the Lord. Wherever he lives, he converts that place into Vrndavana and Navadvipa. This means that materialism cannot touch him. This is the secret of success for one advancing in Krsna consciousness.

    “At whosoever’s house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma. (Cc. Mad. 7.130)

    Purport by Prabhupada: “The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles and be freed from the contamination of material life…. To protect his preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Caitanya-caritamrta.

    Hope this meets the readers satisfactory.

    Hari BOL. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

    YS……… Amar Puri.

    Reply
55. Bh. Michael says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:05 am

    Mahesh: “We are NOT for convincing the Baboon party — that was NOT the object.”

    Right, there is an obstinate agenda presenting themselves as, “highly learned Gaudiya-Vaishnavism experts”, who want to make Prabhupada’s final instructions about ongoing system for initiation within his movement look nebulous, in need of explanation.

    Of course, there is a worldly aspect involved, if Prabhupada appointed successors then these successors are the lawful inheritors of ISKCON’s global properties. Quite a motive for legacy hunters!

    And thats obviously the reason why a whole army works 24/7 in order to attack those who simply stick to Prabhupada’s formula of keeping Prabhupada as current link to Krishna’s parampara system.

    Since this forum is read by all kind of people, it is a public domain blog which is ranked by Google more sincerely than all those halfhearted free blogs, we cannot have an endless discussion about what is anyway a clear situation. People in general are getting confused. “What the heck is this endless stop-go?”

    Then there are those who make a virtue out of necessity, figure to keep things as they are because for them it is profitable business.

    Meanwhile ISKCON mortgaged their properties in the West in order to relocate to the East. Siberia, South East Asia, Africa, third world countries. There might be an optical phenomenon like huge influx of new followers, buildings, land and thus people declare, “ISKCON more successful than ever before”.

    So far so good, but this doesn’t hide the fact that in North America and European Union, temples are empty. E.g., Prabhupada’s Caitanya Caritamrita, Nectar of Devotion, Teachings of Lord Caitanya not reprinted in german-speaking countries since 20 years.

    On the other hand, if ISKCON made this move to recruit their followers in Asia’s prisons, Asia’s slums, surely, there might be millions of people who are eager to jump on the economical bandwagon. But is this what Prabhupada wanted for his movement? Agreed, everybody should get the chance to become a Vaishnava, but if ISKCON managers are not able to clean up their chaos in Europe and North America, why we should believe that their Eastern followers are getting the proper training?

    This question was asked repeatedly, “how do you know that those remaining gurus are not genuine spiritual masters?” Well yes, if they were fully qualified gurus, why are they not getting Europe and USA back on track? They only go to 3rd world countries and far East, China, India, Brazil and Indonesia and report huge success in recruiting more followers – “thousands of new disciples”.

    But why they avoid Europe and North America, 1 bn people? Isn’t this reasonable suspicion that something is missing and people are simply recruited on the basis of campaign pledge, refugees driven by poverty are attracted just to have many participants?

    Of course, this might be Lord Caitanya’s plan to spread the Holy Name in every town&village, but ISKCON’s colossal breakdown in Western nations remains an indicator that there is an urgent pent-up demand in this area and this doesn’t shed a good light on the quality of their work in far East.

    Reply
56. Krishna das says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:28 am

    >> Please present even one such testimony which has equal weight as the humble, honest, heartfelt confession of Hansadutta Prabhu

    Is it sincere prabhu just because it tallies with your thinking? If testimonies are deciding factor, then have some of these:

    There were many dozens of devotees surrounding Srila Prabhupada in his final pastimes. Their only concern was to see Srila Prabhupada continue to live with us. Especially those serving him personally were attentive to detail and every word His Divine Grace spoke. – Tamala Krishna Goswami in Poison Antidote

    Anyone who was present in Vrindavana at that time could not deny that every attempt both material and spiritual was made in an effort to keep Srila Prabhupada with us all as long as possible. – Bhavananda Maharaj in Poison Antidote

    but while serving Srila Prabhupada I had the opportunity to associate with him (Tamal Krishna Maharaj) very closely and lived with him in the same room for about seven months. During those days I saw what a deep love and respect he had for Srila Prabhupada, and I also saw what a deep confidence His Divine Grace had in him. – Bhakti Charu Maharaj in Poison Antidote

    the devotees around Srila Prabhupada were praying to Krsna to let Srila Prabhupada stay on this planet in exchange of their lives – Bhakti Charu Maharaj in Poison Antidote

    as soon as his Divine Grace woke up, “Where is Tamal? Ask him to come to me.” And then he would have seen a very sweet loving exchange between them. Srila Prabhupada talking to him about the affairs of the movement, his various concerns about the future of this movement and what should be done to protect this movement – Bhakti Charu Maharaj in Poison Antidote

    At a meeting in Topanga Canyon in 1980, Tamal Krishna Maharaja stated that Srila Prabhupada had never appointed the eleven rtviks to be anything more than rtviks. “If it had been more than that,” he said, “you can bet your bottom dollar that Prabhupada would have spoken for days and hours and weeks on end about about how to set up this thing with the gurus, but he didn’t. . .” – Jayadvaita Maharaj in “Plain Vanilla”

    The same point about how Srila Prabhupada let us know what he wanted is relevant here. If he had wanted a rtvik-guru system to continue after his departure, would we have expected him to have said so merely once in private to his secretary, or would he have spoken about it with his leading devotees “for days and hours and weeks on end”? – Jayadvaita Maharaj in “Plain Vanilla”

    If these choices somehow don’t suit you, you’re left with Harikesa Swami, Jayapataka Swami, Hrdayananda Goswami, Tamal Krishna Goswami, or Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami. The problem here, of course (aside from the possibility that you may not like them), is that all of them are sure they were supposed to serve as rtviks only until Srila Prabhupada’s departure. As far as they’re concerned, the post-samadhi rtvik doctrines are bunk. Now these devotees wouldn’t serve as rtviks for love or money. So if you’re looking for an authorized rtvik, go back to the other names on the list. And remember, henceforward—from now till the end of time—these are the only authorized rtviks. – Jayadvaita Maharaj in “Plain Vanilla”

    But I know what your replies would be, “We can’t trust these testimonies”. So the scales are even now as I too said the same some time ago.

    Reply
57. Krishna das says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:40 am

    >>When a person is a ANTI Srila Prabhupada Diksa Guru Lord Krsna gives intelligence in such a way that this person MUST go to hell

    A statement present in none of Prabhupada’s books and is given by our great acharya spiritual master Om Vishnupada 1008 HDG Mahesh Dasa Goswami Maharaj Prabhupada aka Mahesh Raja proficient in usage of ill languages.

    >>One very obvious question: If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape? Why was Tamala still trying to get Prabhupada to say something else?

    For your information the word Ritvik was used in the may 28 conversation by Tamala Krishna Maharaj and not Prabhupada. If he really desired to be a Guru himself, then when Prabhupada said “He’s Guru”, Maharaj would have stopped the conversation then and there itself.

    Reply
58. Krishna das says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:53 am

    >>Well yes, if they were fully qualified gurus, why are they not getting Europe and USA back on track? They only go to 3rd world countries and far East, China, India, Brazil and Indonesia and report huge success in recruiting more followers — “thousands of new disciples”.

    I will present a snapshot of the schedule of a few of the many more Gurus in ISKCON. Tell me after seeing this in which part of the world do they preach:

    Jayapataka Maharaj:
    21 Jun 2010 – Atlanta, Washington, Manor

    16 Jun 2010 – Atlanta Panihati Festival – USA

    21 May 2010 – LA, Laguna Beach – USA

    16 May 2010 – New Orleands, USA

    11 Jun 2010 – Los Angeles Airport, USA

    26 May 2010 – Nrisimha Caturdasi Festival – LA, USA

    Bhakti Vikasa Maharaj :

    Friday, August 31, 2012
    San Diego, California, USA
    Saturday, September 1, 2012
    Denver, USA
    Sunday, September 2, 2012
    Denver, USA
    Monday, September 3, 2012
    Denver, USA
    Tuesday, September 4, 2012
    Tuscan, USA
    Wednesday, September 5, 2012
    Tuscan, USA
    Thursday, September 6, 2012
    Tuscan, USA
    Friday, September 7, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Saturday, September 8, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Sunday, September 9, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Monday, September 10, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Tuesday, September 11, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Wednesday, September 12, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Thursday, September 13, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Friday, September 14, 2012
    Dallas, USA
    Saturday, September 15, 2012
    Houston, USA
    Sunday, September 16, 2012
    New Orleans, USA
    Monday, September 17, 2012
    New Talavan, USA
    Tuesday, September 18, 2012
    New Talavan, USA
    Wednesday, September 19, 2012
    New Talavan, USA
    Thursday, September 20, 2012
    New Talavan, USA
    Friday, September 21, 2012
    Alachua, USA
    Saturday, September 22, 2012
    Miami, USA
    Sunday, September 23, 2012
    West Palm Beach, USA
    Monday, September 24, 2012
    Orlando, USA
    Tuesday, September 25, 2012
    Orlando, USA
    Wednesday, September 26, 2012
    Charlotte, USA
    Thursday, September 27, 2012
    Charlotte, USA
    Friday, September 28, 2012
    Charlotte, USA
    Saturday, September 29, 2012
    Philadelphia, USA
    Sunday, September 30, 2012
    Boston, USA
    Tuesday, October 2, 2012
    Kanhaiyadesh
    Wednesday, October 3, 2012
    Kanhaiyadesh
    Thursday, October 4, 2012
    Kanhaiyadesh
    Friday, October 5, 2012
    Kanhaiyadesh
    Saturday, October 6, 2012
    Damodaradesh
    Sunday, October 7, 2012
    Damodaradesh
    Monday, October 8, 2012
    Damodaradesh
    Tuesday, October 9, 2012
    Mathuradesh

    Indradyumna Maharaj:
    Durban
    Jan 1, 2013 – Jan 6, 2013

    India
    Jan 7 – Jan 11

    Gujarat Festival Tour
    Jan 12 – Feb 6

    Vrindavan
    Feb 7 – 14

    Mumbai
    Feb 15 – 19

    Durban
    Feb 20 – 24

    Mayapur
    Feb 26 – Mar 4

    Vrindavan
    Mar 5 – 8

    South Africa
    Mar 9 – Apr 3

    Vrindavan
    Apr 4 – 8

    Sydney
    Apr 10 – 15

    Christchurch
    Apr 16

    Dunedin
    Apr 17 – 18

    Christchurch
    Apr 19 – 22

    Hongkong
    Apr 23 – 27

    Now tell me where who preaches? Please get the figures right before posting anything. And dont tell now that they go there to earn Guru dakshina to enjoy. I know you will tell this to your followers and they will blindly believe you without verifying the truth.

    In the ritvik camp the leaders(who have virtually become Gurus) tell their disciples that all those temples are doing bad. They also tell them “Don’t visit those temples. It is bad association”. They also tell “You don’t have faith in Prabhupada? We are following Prabhupada. So just believe us”. So the so called disciples get afraid and think “I will never go to those temples” and so will never get to know the truth.

    Reply
59. Krishna das says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:56 am

    I know ritviks in Bangalore preach that Bangalore temple is doing the highest book distribution in whole of India combined. They also tell “Don’t visit other temples”. So the followers tend to believe that they are doing the best. They never know the statistics of Mayapur, Mumbai, Delhi. Let them compare themselves with the statistics of even non-ritvik Bangalore temples which do much less than the above mentioned temples, their illusion will be shattered.

    Reply
60. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    3. April 2013 at 1:55 pm

    Bh. Michael says: Of course, there is a worldly aspect involved, if Prabhupada appointed successors then these successors are the lawful inheritors of ISKCON’s global properties. Quite a motive for legacy hunters!

    And that’s obviously the reason why a whole army works 24/7 in order to attack those who simply stick to Prabhupada’s formula of keeping Prabhupada as current link to Krishna’s parampara system.

    Yes. There is strong motivation to try to say that Srila Prabhupada left things unclear: name, fame, adoration, distinction, money, followers, power, glory, etc., etc.. This is a very great offense to my divine master, Srila Prabhupada. To say such a thing is the same as saying that Srila Prabhupada was irresponsible.

    Everything is perfectly clear to anyone who is not self-motivated. Even a child can understand Srila Prabhupada’s simple, straight-forward “ritvik henceforward” prescription for future initiations within ISKCON. (See http://rtvik.com/?TP=8927)

    What these self-motivated rascals don’t realize is that they are going to go down in history as the biggest fools in the history of Vaisnavism!

    Reply
61. Mahesh Raja says:

    3. April 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Krishna das (Baboon Worshiper Crook): There were many dozens of devotees surrounding Srila Prabhupada in his final pastimes. Their only concern was to see Srila Prabhupada continue to live with us.

    Mahesh : I am VERY glad that he has presented the Poison Issue this gives US the chance to EXPOSE the Jackals who gave poison to Srila Prabhupada:

    730503mw.la Conversations

    Reply
62. Mahesh Raja says:

    3. April 2013 at 3:35 pm

    Krishna das (Baboon Worshiper Crook): I will present a snapshot of the schedule of a few of the many more Gurus in ISKCON. Tell me after seeing this in which part of the world do they preach

    Mahesh: It is NOT about preaching – is about MONEY screwing and canvassing for FREE SLAVES (disciples).

    They can NOT even do 1% of what Srila Prabhupada did. Call them preachers? SIMPLY BOGUS!

    Reply
63. Mahesh Raja says:

    3. April 2013 at 3:58 pm

    Krshna das (Baboon Worshiper Crook):A statement present in none of Prabhupada’s books and is given by our great acharya spiritual master Om Vishnupada 1008 HDG Mahesh Dasa Goswami Maharaj Prabhupada aka Mahesh Raja proficient in usage of ill languages

    Note: When the ENVIOUS creatures want to REPLACE the BONAFIDE Acarya Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru in ISKCON then the “ill language” is appropriate:

    69-01-31. Letter: Hrsikesa
    I do not wish to go into all details here, but I must inform you that this Bon Maharaja may be considered as a black snake, and at the time of His Disappearance, my Guru Maharaja did not even wish to have him in His presence due to the character of this Bon Maharaja.

    72-11-21. Letter: Niranjana
    If you are serious to be an important assistant in our Society you should fully engage yourself in translation work, and do not mix yourself with my so-called god-brothers. As there are in Vrindaban some residents like monkeys and hogs, similarly there are many rascals in the name of Vaisnavas, be careful of them.

    Reply
64. Bh. Michael says:

    3. April 2013 at 4:49 pm

    Thanks “Krishna Das” from Pennsylvania (PA) for reminding us with tour data of JPS (lectures with radiofrequency transponder system) and BVS (order to stay away from several ISKCON temples), who follow Hindu hotspots in the West (London, LA, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, etc). Obviously your state of knowledge requires some finding of facts.

    Europe is approx 60 nations=500mio people. In order to get an overview about EU GBC management you simply study one country, Mozart’s country, Austria, where Prithu performed his Last Supper in 2003.

    Before Prithu’s rampage, Harikes, Suhotra, Krishnaksetra, Bhakticaru, Rohinisuta, Sacinandana were posing there as “genuine spiritual master”. Since 10 years, none of these gentlemen ever put a foot in this country.

    Since 2003 all ISKCON temples closed, article: What Have Austrians Done Wrong?

    Now, Austria is not just any country, it is flagship of Europe’s cultural scene/history and one of the richest countries of EU. Prabhupada clearly states, “temples cannot be closed” – (Letter to Aniruddha).

    To this day, none of your so called “genuine spiritual master elite” finds anything wrong how everything was closed in Austria.

    From this example you can deduce overall situation in Western countries. Prabhupada: “Just like you’re cooking rice. You take one rice and press it. If it is not soft, oh, whole rice is not.” (July 5, 1977, Vrindavana)

    In sum, any real bona fide guru, spiritual master, would never approve of such mismanagement and at least appologize.

    Everybody knows that during Harikes tons of senior devotees and Prabhupada disciples were forced to leave ISKCON Europe. When Harikes left did his successor, Ravindra Svarupa das, try to get these devotees back? Vice versa, Ravindra Svarupa reinforced Harikesa’s policy.

    1994 GBC Resolutions: “Each GBC man is responsible to try to recover the not fully active devotees living in his zone.”

    We have to study symptom. Prabhupada: “So it is the symptom. Just like a doctor, medical man. He diagnoses according to the symptom. He finds out the cause.” (November 2, 1975, Nairobi)

    Reply
65. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

    3. April 2013 at 7:36 pm

    Yes Krishna das has reminded us how these guru’s spend millions of dollars flying around the world visting their fully-staffed private hotels and the result is the movement keeps deterioating. There is no institution or corporation in the world that would continue throwing money at a strategy that fails so miserably.

    Personally I have only seen heartbreak and confusion caused by these guru’s. Just because someone is active it does not mean their motive is automatically pure. Theives and politicians are also very busy! FACT: These gurus have become very wealthy by extracting money from Srila Prabhupada’s Movement via disciples. They now have their retirement plan all sorted while temples and devotees go without.

    Some would call this greedy selfishness,.. hardly Godly qualities? Post your long, impressive lists Krishna das, but that does not change the character of the men you bow to. What is it you fear so much about standing up for yourself and giving up this unhealthy co-dependant relationship?

    Reply
66. Amar Puri says:

    3. April 2013 at 9:17 pm

    This Krishna das chooses to play offensive and defensive game to protect and promote not only his interpreted ideas but his believe system in the present Iskcon self made / appointed gurus of all GRADATION against the specific Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada. That is what he has been trained by the Leaders / gurus whom he protects and promotes so vigorously because the Leaders / gurus themselves are very much protective to their respective chosen positions in the Iskcon of Srila Prabhupada despite the repeated warning of HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions.

    For examples Krishna das in his comments quotes the present Iskcon leaders / gurus such as BCS, late TKG and Jayadvaita the famous changer / editor of the Original Books of Srila Prabhupada. All of them are protecting their positions by misrepresentation, changing the Original text of Srila Prabhupada’s books to best suit their agenda and this Krishna das quotes from them to cover them up and protect them against the valid Instructions – VANI of Srila Prabhupada.

    To quote a simple example of the change in the Bhagvat Gita 1972 Edition Ch. 8-5 ;

    Dear Readers,

    please read 8.5 verse from the original Bhag. as it is ;
    http://www.asitis.com/8/5.html

    PURPORT

    In this verse the importance of Krsna consciousness is stressed. Anyone who quits his body in Krsna consciousness is at once transferred to the transcendental abode of the Supreme Lord. The word smaran (“remembering”) is important. Remembrance of Krsna is not possible for the impure soul who has not practiced Krsna consciousness in devotional service. To remember Krsna one should chant the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, incessantly, following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, being more tolerant than a tree, humbler than the grass and offering all respect to others without requiring respect in return. In such a way one will be able to depart from the body successfully remembering Krsna and so attain the supreme goal.

    NOTE : PL. Read the changed and edited verson of 8.5. Bhag. as it is BY jas ;

    harekrishna.com/col/books/BG/gita/chapter8.html

    PURPORT

    In this verse the importance of Krsna consciousness is stressed. Anyone who quits his body in Krsna consciousness is at once transferred to the transcendental nature of the Supreme Lord. The Supreme Lord is the purest of the pure. Therefore anyone who is constantly Krsna conscious is also the purest of the pure. The word smaran (“remembering”) is important. Remembrance of Krsna is not possible for the impure soul who has not practiced Krsna consciousness in devotional service. Therefore one should practice Krsna consciousness from the very beginning of life. If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Krsna is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra—Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Lord Caitanya has advised that one be as tolerant as a tree (taror iva sahisnuna). There may be so many impediments for a person who is chanting Hare Krsna. Nonetheless, tolerating all these impediments, one should continue to chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, so that at the end of one’s life one can have the full benefit of Krsna consciousness.

    Did TKG has the qualification as per the original Bhag. 8.5 purport by SP.? The answer is NO.

    Did TKG has the qualification as per the revised and edited Bhag.8.5 purport by JAS ? The answer is YES.

    How these people the editor JAS at BBTI changed and deleted completely to best suit their agenda, Guru System. It is really a shame.

    If you want to read more about TKG horoscope please read it at this link ;

    http://www.harekrsna.org/Tamal-Horoscope.htm

    That is why we have to educate the innocent people out there with the right message of Srila Prabhupada gave us all. That is the duty of all of us.

    Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.

    Hari BOL….. YS….. Amar Puri.

    Reply
67. Mahesh Raja says:

    3. April 2013 at 10:16 pm

    Just-a-fruit-seller : Yes Krishna das has reminded us how these guru’s spend millions of dollars flying around the world visting their fully-staffed private hotels and the result is the movement keeps deterioating. There is no institution or corporation in the world that would continue throwing money at a strategy that fails so miserably. ..
    Post your long, impressive lists Krishna das, but that does not change the character of the men you bow to. What is it you fear so much about standing up for yourself and giving up this unhealthy co-dependant relationship?

    Mahesh: the problem here is this “Krishna das” Baboon worshiper is Crook HIMSELF so how can he stand up for himself? This guy is obviously not a NEW baby Baboon this we can judge by the way he responds. He is TRAINED Baboon one is who holds some RANK within the Baboon group EXPLOITING others. These TYPES are PROTECTING their INTEREST in EXPLOITING OTHERS. They way they do this is play at GET RID OF SRILA PRABHUPADA AS DIKSA GURU so they can do their EXPLOITATION.
    These Baboons have no scruples whether it be hurting raping Gurukulis, throwing out devotees etc
    These folks are NOT devotees they are PLAYING the game of show of religion:
    THE DEMONIAC WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF RELIGION AND ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES.

    They want OTHERS to worship them ie BOGUS DIKSA GURUS:

    Bg 16.4 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures

    dambho darpo ‘bhimanas ca
    krodhah parusyam eva ca
    ajnanam cabhijatasya
    partha sampadam asurim

    TRANSLATION
    Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance–these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha.
    PURPORT
    IN THIS VERSE, THE ROYAL ROAD TO HELL IS DESCRIBED. THE DEMONIAC WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF RELIGION AND ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. THEY DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPED BY OTHERS, AND DEMAND RESPECTABILITY, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT COMMAND RESPECT. OVER TRIFLES THEY BECOME VERY ANGRY AND SPEAK HARSHLY, NOT GENTLY. THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT SHOULD BE DONE AND WHAT SHOULD NOT BE DONE. THEY DO EVERYTHING WHIMSICALLY, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRE, AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE ANY AUTHORITY. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities.

    THEY DO EVERYTHING WHIMSICALLY, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRE, AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE ANY AUTHORITY

    The are NOT going to ACCEPT BONAFIDE ACARYA Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT DIKSA Guru:

    Isopanisad 12
    THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction acaryopasana–”One must worship the acarya”–and Krsna’s statement in the Bhagavad-gita (4.2) evam parampara-praptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
    THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. THEY CANNOT, HOWEVER, ESCAPE THE LAW OF THE SUPREME, WHO HAS CLEARLY DECLARED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA THAT ENVIOUS DEMONS IN THE GARB OF RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDISTS SHALL BE THROWN INTO THE DARKEST REGIONS OF HELL (BG. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.

    Note: these CROOKS are there to MISLEAD others by deviating them from ACCEPTING Srila Prabhupada as Current DIKSA Guru:
    SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
    A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.

    Reply
68. Mahesh Raja says:

    4. April 2013 at 12:07 am

    Krishna das (Baboon worshiper Crook):For your information the word Ritvik was used in the may 28 conversation by Tamala Krishna Maharaj and not Prabhupada. If he really desired to be a Guru himself, then when Prabhupada said “He’s Guru”, Maharaj would have stopped the conversation then and there itself.

    Mahesh: singing the tune of the bogus gurus—again! He is saying “Maharaj would have stopped the conversation then and there itself.” What a LOAD OF GARBAGE!

    Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?
    Tamala Krsna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear FACT that we are ALL CONDITIONED souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible…
    Prabhupada: Hm.
    Tamala Krsna: …but not now.
    Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall SAY, “Now you become ACARYA. You become authorized.” I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

    (Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977)

    As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. ” BUT just AFTER 7 months in NOVEMBER, the departure of Srila Prabhupada, he was deceitful, he CHEATED, thus began the Guru HOAX in ISKCON. He proclaimed the 11 were now to be ACCEPTED as “successor gurus”, “Uttama Adhikaris” and anyone who thought otherwise would bring “one dangerously near the precipice of spiritual calamity.” Threats were common to those who opposed them.

    Tamal Krsna and company went on to imitate Uttama Adhikari PRETENDING to give Diksa. Tamal Krishna “Goswami threatens in his “Servant of the Servant”, 1984 Printing, Part Two, Chapter 11 – Le Sankirtana Parisien:

    P361 — “Though they leveled their remarks against the successor gurus, in reality their criticism was aimed at Srila Prabhupada himself.”

    P363 — Referring to Srila Prabhupada: “Thus he considered them to be Uttama-adhikari, highly advanced devotees worthy to be accepted as spiritual masters.”[..]

    “Critics may doubt whether our ISKCON acaryas are actually liberated. Do they know their rasa (liberated relationship) with Krsna, and will they be able to instruct their disciples similarly? But such questions bring one dangerously near precipice of spiritual calamity.”

    P365 “Ultimately, however the greatest proof of bonafidity of Srila Prabhupada’s successor acaryas is their disciples.”

    PRACTICALLY EVERYONE KNOWS Tamal Krsna WAS a CONDITIONED SOUL and BIG LIAR.

    Reply
69. Puranjana dasa says:

    4. April 2013 at 5:59 am

    Bhakti Vikas swami is attacking the Radhanath program, without answering the question, why was he voted in by the same people who voted in Radhanath? This is meltdown, they are attacking one another. That proves they are not gurus. ys pd

    http://www.oneiskcon.com/spiritual-slut-and-company-a-corrupting-influence-2/

    Reply
70. Krishna das says:

    4. April 2013 at 8:49 am

    >>As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. ” BUT just AFTER 7 months in NOVEMBER, the departure of Srila Prabhupada, he was deceitful, he CHEATED, thus began the Guru HOAX in ISKCON

    Mr Mahesh, if that is the case Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaj wanted his body to be tied and dragged in the whole of Mayapur so that he is purified after his leaving the world. The so called babajis took the words literally but Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura understood the humility in his words. Don’t take the words literally, learn to surrender to an authority and find the truth.

    I pasted the schedule just because someone accused that the Gurus spend all their time in India and asian countries. When I successfully proved that they go all over the world (that too I pasted schedule of only 3 Gurus, had I pasted of all, your site wouldn’t have so much memory to support the content), then you guys turned to the topic of what they do there, A CLEAR CASE OF CHEATING (vitanda, chala, nigraha). Without any evidence you began accusing that they earn money and do this and do that etc etc. AND AS USUAL YOUR BLIND DISCIPLES WILL BLINDLY BELIEVE YOUR WORDS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOLD THEM “DON’T GO TO THOSE TEMPLES, LISTEN TO US BECAUSE WE FOLLOW PRABHUPADA”.

    I also pasted the testimonies just to reflect on the same thing that Pratyatosha prabhu was emphasizing, that testimony of a devotee is sufficient enough to prove something. I wanted to state that if he has one, I have ten. BUT IF YOU ALL DON’T BELIEVE THESE TESTIMONIES, WHY DO YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE YOURS. I know that Hamsaduta Maharaj had done a great service to Prabhupada in his presence, I have all respects for him. I give him the respects I give to my spiritual master. But when it comes to proving that my Sri Guru is not bonafide, there is no compromise.

    And our master of bad words continues with his bad words and also gives some Prabhupada’s quotes to justify his imitating Prabhupada and using ill language.

    >>Personally I have only seen heartbreak and confusion caused by these guru’s. Just because someone is active it does not mean their motive is automatically pure

    Nor does it mean that their motive is automatically impure. I have never asked anyone to just believe that their motive is automatically pure. You have seen from others eyes or mouth the heartbreak. Follow the process ordained in the scriptures and the teachings of Prabhupada regarding how to identify pure devotees. Approach them and serve them with humility. Then you will understand whether they are pure or no. Don’t just believe someone when he says “I AM SERVING PRABHUPADA. BELIEVE IN ME BECAUSE I WILL MAKE YOU A DISCIPLE OF PRABHUPADA. DON’T ASSOCIATE WITH THOSE PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT MAKE YOU A DIRECT DISCIPLE OF PRABHUPADA, WHO WAS SUCH A SUCCESSFUL DEVOTEE BECAUSE HE REGISTERED A NEW SOCIETY, WROTE MORE THAN 50 BOOKS, INITIATED THOUSANDS OF DISCIPLES. IF YOU ASSOCIATE WITH US YOU CAN DIRECTLY BECOME SUCH A GREAT GURU’S DISCIPLE. THESE GURUS HAVE FOREIGN BODIES, HOW CAN THEY BE GURUS. SO DON’T MEET THEM”.

    >>Did TKG has the qualification as per the original Bhag. 8.5 purport by SP.? The answer is NO.

    And you are qualified enough to understand that he had no qualification. This is what ritviks teach, you are qualified enough to recognize that these Gurus are bogus, and you will also feel “Oh I am so qualified”. And regarding book changes you want that the “Planet of trees” that was wrongly typed by Prabhupada’s initial disciples who new nothing of pitris must be printed and the scholarly mass may get an opportunity to find faults in the Bhagavad Gita As it is, saying that when the shloka clearly says “pitri nam”, the author has said trees instead of pitris. Find the truth, don’t blindly believe things. How many have heard what Prabhupada has told Jayadvaita Maharaj regarding editorial changes, how many have heard all original transcripts and tape recordings of Bhagavatam and other books. You just blindly believe your leaders.

    >>These gurus have become very wealthy by extracting money from Srila Prabhupada’s Movement via disciples. They now have their retirement plan all sorted while temples and devotees go without.

    I challenge this fruit seller to come and stay with sannyasis and Gurus in ISKCON and try to follow their routine if it is possible for him/her. If you are unable to do it, please take back your statements. If you are unable to do that, then all the best, Maya devi is waiting for you and your blind followers.

    Thanks for the geography information Michael prabhu. I really didn’t know most of it, I admit. But you expect the few Gurus to cover each and every region all the time. You are expecting this because you have not seen their lifestyle and I am not sure if you have even traveled anywhere like them. If you travel to preach you will come to know how easy task it is.

    >>They can NOT even do 1% of what Srila Prabhupada did. Call them preachers? SIMPLY BOGUS!

    Even if that is true, that still doesn’t disqualify them from being Gurus as this is not a qualification at all. If this was a qualification then Gaura Kishore dasa babaji Maharaj never had disciples except Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Would this mean that he is not a spiritual master? I didn’t say this, you guys said it.

    Temples are getting closed not because of lethargy of Gurus but because their disciples want to become equal to Gurus and want to directly take initiation from Prabhupada. They are more interested in feeding poor children than in preaching. They call celebrities to advertise their poor feeding program. They never co-operate with their Gurus. They have big big temples from the money earned by advertising charity, where they get the money for the charity from government also which is enough. So most of this excess money is used to advertize that we are the best temple and most of the bramhacharis are used not for preaching but for this fund collection to feed poor. Stop this and let us co-operate together to serve Prabhupada via our spiritual master, why will ISKCON not improve?

    Reply
71. abhaya carana seva das says:

    4. April 2013 at 10:34 am

    pamho agtACBSP,

    guruvar ki jai,

    the order to become diksa-guru, the position and spiritual power comes directly from the SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD SRI KRSNA,

    acinoti yah sastrartham acare sthapayatyapi
    svayam acarate yasmad acarya stena kirtitah

    The acarya is thus called because he has studied and understood the meaning of the scriptures, he establishes this meaning in the behavior of others and he practices what he preaches. (Manu-samhita)

    Acarya is one who fully understands the conclusions of the revealed scriptures and whose behavior reflects his deep realizations, he is a living example for he teaches the meaning of the scriptures both by word and deed. (Vishnu-Purana)

    SRILA PRABHUPADA was ordered by his guru maharaj same as SRILA SUKADEVA GOSVAMI was ordered by his guru, Srila Vyasadeva himself, to spread the nectar of SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM.

    As SRILA PRABHUPADA is still doing through his vani seva to deliver all of us because as we can see there is no other order manifested that somebody else become the next bona fide diksa guru.

    Therefore SRILA PRABHUPADA is our real diksa guru, current link, eternally jagat guru of all the fallen souls of this kali-yuga society for another 9500 years of golden age still to come through param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam.

    Let all the barking dogs to pass through mrtyu but the living teaching of our guru maharaj will live forever including his picture on the altar to help all the sincere bhaktas to overcome the terrible influences of kali-yuga and return back home to the spiritual world by closing down all prajalpa coming from the polluted guru hoaxers,

    thank you for your sat-sanga

    agtSP ys haribol

    Reply
72. Bh. Michael says:

    4. April 2013 at 11:25 am

    As usual positions of the different parties are hardening – no agreement or reach consensus. Prabhupada reminds us: “If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them.”
    (Evening Darsana, July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.)

    43 ISKCON gurus ended up with a scandal, last case just one year ago: Prabhavishnu (http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=25213) .

    Australia’s poster “guru” Prabhavishnu grabbing trunks of temple money and about to marry a Thai karmi lady.

    “Mr Krishna Das”‘reply (summarized): This is all peanuts, insignificant, minor and unimportant. Negligibleness. Instead I demand first of all respectful language – 43 fallen gurus doesn’t mean anything, it simply proves that there must be a few of them who are genuine, totally pure, especially this one I have chosen…..

    As mentioned already for one-on-one coaching plz use intranet / private forums, counseling.

    So far there are thousands of victims, naive devotees like “Krishna Das” who got traumatized by false gurus, many of them required professional help in order to recover. Of course lost money did not recover, was gone forever.

    We wish “Krishna Das” only the best, he wants to experience things on his own or, as people would joke, to learn something the hard way.

    There are lots of forums like Sampradaya Sun where “Krishna Das” is surely welcome to post his articles.

    Like many other similar cases, historical investigation, data-recall facility and to make substantial inquiries is rather poorly done. Before entering into debate, homework assignment should be complete.
    Thank You for spending time with us, go on chanting Hare Krishna!

    Always remember, genuine Vaishnavism is without flaws. Prabhupada: “Therefore purposefully Vyasadeva is writing, sri-bhagavan uvaca, where there is no cheating, no imperfection, no illusion, no mistake. Four things. No mistake, no illusion, no cheating and no imperfection. This is Bhagavan. Why we are taking Bhagavad-gita so seriously? There are so many other books we can read, so many theories, so many philosophers, big, big philosophers. But we cannot take them because they are defective.”
    (London, August 3, 1973)

    Reply
73. Krishna das says:

    4. April 2013 at 12:29 pm

    >>Always remember, genuine Vaishnavism is without flaws

    And Prabhu you claim that you are following genuine Vaishnavism. Can you cite a reference from any scripture that because any Guru falls down, then we must not accept any Guru at all as bonafide and must actually take the departed Acharya and take initiation from him without his permission? If that was the case then some of Prabhupada’s godbrothers fell down. Because so many of their followers suffered because of that, why did people not reject Prabhupada for their spiritual security and directly get ritvik initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? That is an illogical approach saying that if some Guru fell down, we must reject all his godbrothers also as non-bonafide Gurus and must directly approach their spiritual master. If that is the case you all must approach Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Or for that matter, since Kala Krishnadas and Chota Haridas who were followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu deviated, we must reject Rupa Goswami also who is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s follower and must take ritvik initiation from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Going into history we may find many disciples of acharyas deviating, so where will this end? At Krishna? That is not an intelligent argument. To find a spiritual master is not easy. One must approach a Guru with a humble mood and serve him and ask questions. Then if the spiritual master is merciful, he may initiate the disciple. Don’t invent shortcuts to come out of this problem. Face the problem and find out a genuine spiritual master.

    Reply
74. Adam Smith says:

    4. April 2013 at 6:33 pm

    In consideration what happened past 35 years ISKCON’s GBC is advised to better play it safe. Don’t overstress Westerners’ benevolence of allowing Vaishnavism to use their infrastructure and liberal constitution.

    Already people are severely unsettled about all those ISKCON scandals one after the other. At one point that’s the last straw.

    You cannot give way to quote sastra without including what happened past 35 years. 43 fallen gurus simply brushed under the carpet, pat off the dirt and that’s it? They even can’t appologize anymore because it happened again and again.

    Believe it or not Westerners are not that foolish. There has to be a signal by the Vaishnava institutions that this is not permanent conditions. Or, as Prabhupada put it, “…this has to be stopped….”

    As a matter of etiquette there should be interim arrangement so that people in general can be sure that Vaishnavism is trustworthy, to provide confidence.

    At this point there cannot be full risk policy but rather no more risk. The bow is over strung so to speak. I’m afraid to say, once more, ISKCON runs make-or-break formula.

    Ok, Krishna Das believes in evolution, the strong survive, after sieving all those false gurus, we gradually get the real ones? But didn’t they say this starting from Jayatirtha’s legendary beheading in November 13, 1987, London, some 25 years ago?

    I know, hardcore ritviks call me softy – just some thoughts from common sense point of view.
    That’s today news, Calling for the Resignation of Ramai Swami as GBC of Australia (http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-13/editorials9977.htm). Ramai Swami is of course also guru because GBC law says, Prabhupada disciples who don’t initiate are in fallen condition – something like that? And it goes on and on…

    Reply
75. Amar Puri says:

    4. April 2013 at 6:46 pm

    What is this Krishna das when you write as such ;

    >>Did TKG has the qualification as per the original Bhag. 8.5 purport by SP.? The answer is NO.

    And you are qualified enough to understand that he had no qualification. This is what ritviks teach, you are qualified enough to recognize that these Gurus are bogus, and you will also feel “Oh I am so qualified”.

    Why you can not answer directly without going out of context, Krishna das ?

    The only qualification one needs to see and read through the contents of the Original Srila Prabhupada’s Purport which are SELF-EXPLANATORY, Krishna das.

    Do you understand and accept it ?

    NO, it does not look like you accept it because you choose not to accept and understand it as it is without INTERPRETATION. That is your problem, Krishna das.

    That is why I wrote else where in my comments i.e. correction is one thing and yet CHANGING and replacing it with something else that suits the motive of the present Iskcon gurus including the editor JAS and YOUR guru who so ever he is, is the issue I brought out to the readers including yourself, Krishna das, which is entirely waste of time and energy to even reply your such totally useless and baseless comments.

    Hope it meets you satisfactory.

    All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

    Hari BOL.

    YS…… Amar Puri.

    Reply
76. Amar Puri says:

    4. April 2013 at 8:11 pm

    Krishna das writes ; ” …………. why did people not reject Prabhupada for their spiritual security and directly get ritvik initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? ”

    The answer is simply that Srila Prabhupada was, is and will remain Mahabhagavat whereas his godbrothers were on different GRADATION of the Spiritual path pretending to be a Mahabhagavata accepting disciples like your guru in the present Iskcon whom you are protecting and promoting so vigorously, Krishna das.

    As Srila BSST gave His Instructions to all of His disciples to spread KC and out of His disciples, one disciple who became SELF effulgent world wide known as Srila Prabhupada with his extra ordinary activities of KC under the Order of His Guru Maharaja stands alone like the MOON amongst many stars. That is why people did not reject Srila Prabhupada.

    Now why people are rejecting your guru in the present Iskcon because your guru is on a different gradation of the Spiritual path pretending to be as good as Srila Prabhupada, the Jagat Guru.

    People like you, Krihna das are protecting and promoting these different gradation of gurus in the present Iskcon and hence, they keep on falling down whereas you are accepting them as Mahabhagavata on the same level of Srila Prabhupada. That is the problem you have, Krishna das and hope this gives you some common sense understanding in answering your question.

    Hope it meets you well.

    Hari BOL.

    YS……. Amar Puri.

    Reply
77. Puranjana dasa says:

    5. April 2013 at 3:23 am

    Srila Prabhupada never ordered anyone to take ritvik initiations from his God brothers? He told us to avoid them. This Krishna das fellow has never even studied the history of all this. We were told not to go there, which is why the GBC all went there in 1978, they violated the order to go there. ys pd

    Reply
78. Krishna das says:

    5. April 2013 at 8:21 am

    >>In consideration what happened past 35 years ISKCON’s GBC is advised to better play it safe

    Similarly considering what happened in Gaudiya math after disappearance of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, why don’t you play safe by becoming a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? Or considering what happened with Chota Haridas, why not play safe and instead of accepting Rupa Goswami’s line we can directly take initiation from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu?

    Can you tell me any evidence of Prabhupada telling or that given in scriptures where it is told that a spiritual master must be on the level of Prabhupada to perform the role of a Guru? You may give Prabhupada quotes saying that he is an exalted devotee, he is a mahabhagavata, but Prabhupada was much more than that. Is it mentioned by Prabhupada anywhere that “the devotee must reach my level to be a Guru?” Then why are you concocting this idea? In fact, as I had mentioned elsewhere the qualification to be a Guru is told on 17th August 1968 :

    “And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa. Just like Krsna gave instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, and if you simply place the instruction received from Bhagavad- gita as it is…”

    Now don’t say that Prabhupada has changed his instructions in 1977. And tell me who is interpreting? Is it mentioned anywhere that a devotee must be equal to Prabhupada to become Guru? Has Prabhupada told this? He has told that he must take his disciples back to godhead, he must make them pure devotees, he must be a pure devotee all that is fine.

    But has Prabhupada said anywhere that the devotee must be equal to him? Now, who is interpreting and who is repeating as it is? I know you all are trained in a consciousness that whatever we believe is as it is and anything otherwise is an interpretation. When Prabhupada said “India, I am here” who is interpreting that the letter is meant for after departure also and who is conveying the message that Prabhupada is speaking of his physical presence?

    >>Srila Prabhupada never ordered anyone to take ritvik initiations from his God brothers..
    But that is not my question Puranjana prabhu. My question is if Gurus falling down is the reason to take ritvik initiations from Prabhupada, many of Prabhupada’s godbrothers fell down. Why not cite the same reason and take initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura directly? This is not any logical argument.

    >>At this point there cannot be full risk policy but rather no more risk..
    Sorry Adam sir, just to appease certain westerners that they are at no risk, we can not risk changing our philosophy that is going on since generation of spiritual masters and disciples. At every level many disciples fell down, but no Guru recommended this concocted idea just to ensure that the next generation takes no risk.

    It is only this present modern disease of inventing something new that has caused this invention of a new idea based on partial understanding of acharyas teachings. When Prabhupada said “He’s granddisciple”, or “Disciple of my disciple”, there is no change possible in that instruction. Vaishnava parampara is not dependent on mundane ideas for its survival in western or eastern society.

    If we have faith in the words of the acharyas, the spiritual master and Krishna, Krishna will protect the sampradaya and make sure that it will be preached all over the world, whether there are eastern, western, northern or southern people. None of our previous acharyas have diluted the Vaishnava philosophy to suit the society, nor can we do it.

    Reply
79. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

    5. April 2013 at 11:55 am

    Thank you Krishna das for your reply to some of my points. You have confirmed what I think we all already knew. I wish you all the best. JFS.

    Reply
80. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    5. April 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Krishna das says: ..we must…actually take the departed Acharya and take initiation from him without his permission?

    Srila Prabhupada is still here with us, and he promised, in the July 9, 1977 directive, to accept unlimited numbers of new, direct disciples. In fact, even in 1971, when I got first initiation, he had already given blanket permission. If the temple president said you got initiated, then you got initiated; otherwise not. It was as simple as that! There was never any question of getting permission from Srila Prabhupada. That permission was automatically there! This was true even as early as 1971, what to speak of 1977 and beyond. Why is this so difficult to understand?

    Krishna das says: Can you cite a reference from any scripture that because any Guru falls down, then we must not accept any Guru at all as bonafide and must actually take the departed Acharya and take initiation from him without his permission? If that was the case then some of Prabhupada’s godbrothers fell down. Because so many of their followers suffered because of that, why did people not reject Prabhupada for their spiritual security and directly get ritvik initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? That is an illogical approach saying that if some Guru fell down, we must reject all his godbrothers also as non-bonafide Gurus and must directly approach their spiritual master. If that is the case you all must approach Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Or for that matter, since Kala Krishnadas and Chota Haridas who were followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu deviated, we must reject Rupa Goswami also who is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s follower and must take ritvik initiation from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Going into history we may find many disciples of acharyas deviating, so where will this end? At Krishna?

    This is simply a variation on the same old silly, illogical argument that the bogus ISKCON gurus and their bogus followers have been spouting for years! Where does http://rtvik.com/ say anything about Srila Prabhupada’s “ritvik henceforward” prescription for future initiations within ISKCON depending upon how many ISKCON “gurus” have been caught falling down? The simple fact is, it doesn’t make any sense to have multiple gurus within a relatively small organization such as ISKCON. Having multiple gurus causes endless conflict and disunity. The fact that so many ISKCON gurus have been caught falling down simply provides even more proof that Srila Prabhupada was right all along: “Ritvik henceforward” is the way to go! Re-adopting Srila Prabhupada’s ingenious ritvik system of initiations is the obvious key to again making ISKCON the harmonious, potent, powerful, righteous, pure, rapidly expanding preaching institution that it once was.

    The reasons that we don’t take ritvik initiation from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or any of the other previous Acharyas are as follows:

    1. We take initiation from the current Acharya, who happens to be Srila Prabhupada.

    2. Srila Prabhupada is the Founder Acharya of ISKCON, so within ISKCON, he is eternally the initiating guru.

    3. Srila Prabhupada created ISKCON for his own followers/disciples, not for the followers/disciples of other gurus.

    4. Srila Prabhupada promised, in the July 9, 1977 directive, to accept unlimited numbers of new, direct disciples now and on into the future. Where is there any evidence that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati or any of the other previous Acharyas ever said such a thing?

    Reply
81. Mahesh Raja says:

    5. April 2013 at 3:12 pm

    Krishna das (Baboon Worshiper Crook): Can you tell me any evidence of Prabhupada telling or that given in scriptures where it is told that a spiritual master must be on the level of Prabhupada to perform the role of a Guru? You may give Prabhupada quotes saying that he is an exalted devotee, he is a mahabhagavata, but Prabhupada was much more than that. Is it mentioned by Prabhupada anywhere that “the devotee must reach my level to be a Guru?”

    Mahesh:

    NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
    The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.

    Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
    MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
    brahmano vai gurur nrnam
    sarvesam eva lokanam
    asau pujyo yatha harih

    maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
    sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
    sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
    na guruh syad avaisnavah

    ((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))

    Note: The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO gives this – BY DEFINITION.

    >>As we can clearly see from Tamal Krishna’s earlier comment in April 1977, “Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it’s clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. ” BUT just AFTER 7 months in NOVEMBER, the departure of Srila Prabhupada, he was deceitful, he CHEATED, thus began the Guru HOAX in ISKCON

    Krishna das (Baboon Worshiper Crook): Mr Mahesh, if that is the case Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaj wanted his body to be tied and dragged in the whole of Mayapur so that he is purified after his leaving the world. The so called babajis took the words literally but Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura understood the humility in his words. Don’t take the words literally, learn to surrender to an authority and find the truth.

    Mahesh: Conditioned soul Tamal Krishna is NOT on the level of EXALTED ACARYA Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaja. Moreover in the Poison Issue tape Tamal Krishna’s voice is heard to say “PUT THE POISON IN THE MILK”

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/Prabhupada998.pdf

    The following site has whispers of the poison givers:

    To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click here or http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh

    And for Individual highlighted louder version of the whole CD , please go to http://www.culturedbooks.com/audio/audio-address.html

    Note: When the ENVIOUS creatures want to REPLACE the BONAFIDE Acarya Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru in ISKCON then the “ill language” is appropriate:

    69-01-31. Letter: Hrsikesa
    I do not wish to go into all details here, but I must inform you that this Bon Maharaja may be considered as a BLACK SNAKE, and at the time of His Disappearance, my Guru Maharaja did not even wish to have him in His presence due to the character of this Bon Maharaja.

    72-11-21. Letter: Niranjana
    If you are serious to be an important assistant in our Society you should fully engage yourself in translation work, and do not mix yourself with my so-called god-brothers. As there are in Vrindaban some residents like MONKEYS and HOGS, similarly there are many rascals in the name of Vaisnavas, be careful of them.

    Reply
82. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

    5. April 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Krishna Das: “At every level many disciples fell down, but no Guru recommended this concocted idea just to ensure that the next generation takes no risk.”

    To enforce upon humanity for the next 10,000 years to take up that risk of surrendering one’s life to a GBC approved “bona fide guru in good standing” but who might be crushed by the modes of material nature as it happened since 35 years more than once per year, is “the concoction-free divine enrichment for misguided Westerners”?

    This is exactly Rocana’s Sampradaya Sun logic, calling his living guru crew, the concoction-free method of teaching mislead humanity to firmly believe and surrender to Rocana’s “highest understanding of spiritual realization”. Whereas, Rocana (he never would accept any of present ISKCON gurus as his guru): “To worship Prabhupada is a concoction”.

    Only problem for these blind alley worshipers, since 35 years, temples in the West remain empty. Instead, Indian immigrants are using these “bona fide Vaishnava temples” to have their monthly Hindu family celebrations.

    FYI, this type of spirituality, installing a risky guru system of neophyte gurus who demand all your money and ultimately might disappear – this is already outclassed by Christianity: Lord Jesus is secure, worship of Lord Jesus through replacable priests is secure, and, Lord Jesus Christ is recognized as genuine representative of God by India’s great acaryas. For Westerners an insecure, conditioned guru system is totally uncalled-for.

    By making such huge fever of excitement about their questionable gurus who falldown left and right, Vaishnava institutions are on the list of being unteachable – Westerners can only do one thing, totally neglect this type of misdirected sectarianism. And obviously as we see, there are hardly any Westerners in Western Vaishnava temples, check youtube. What more proof do you want, “Krishna Das”?

    Reply
83. Puranjana dasa says:

    5. April 2013 at 4:08 pm

    Why should we not take initiation from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta? Correct, that would be better than taking initiation from the GBC’s illicit sex messiahs. However, there is no order from Srila Prabhupada to do that, this is another concoction from Krishna das. The order is to continue ISKCON with “no changes.” ys pd

    Reply
84. Mahesh Raja says:

    5. April 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Jumping over either way:

    a) WHY should they JUMP OVER the PROMINENT ACARYA Srila Prabhupada bearing in mind GAPS in the Disciplic succession of ACARYAS are acceptable?

    b) Nobody can Jump over PROMINENT ACARYA Srila Prabhupada to get diksa from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.

    Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

    “You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME. This is called parampara system. YOU CANNOT JUMP OVER TO THE SUPERIOR GURU, NEGLECTING THE NEXT ACARYA, IMMEDIATE NEXT ACARYA.”

    Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dayananda, April 12, 1968:

    “Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.”

    Reply
85. Puranjana dasa says:

    6. April 2013 at 4:24 pm

    Right, the idea that we have to “take initiation” — [and have our sins absorbed like Jesus is doing] — from people who are prone to deviation, illicit sex, drugs, eating chicken salads and so on, makes no sense even to the ordinary man in the street. How can persons prone to deviation take the place of the messiahs? This is why they add even more layers of concoctions upon their original concoction — that deviants can be messiahs, “well why not take initiation from Rupa Goswami? Simple, because, there is no order to do that? Where was this ordered? And where were we ordered to take initiation from persons inclined to illicit sex? There is no order to take direct initiation from Rupa Goswami either, all of this is concoction. They are just adding layers and layers to the original concoction. ys pd

    Reply
86. Krishna das says:

    8. April 2013 at 8:52 am

    >>Srila Prabhupada is still here with us
    Does it mean previous acharyas are not here with us?

    >>he promised, in the July 9, 1977 directive, to accept unlimited numbers of new, direct disciples

    Sorry, he has given no such promise. On the contrary he desired that system to be in place till he is physically present, as proved from his statement while composing the letter “India, I am here”. Prabhupada has promised on May 28th in the conversation that was specifically meant to decide what will happen regarding initiations when Prabhupada was no longer with us as “He’s grand-disciple” and further goes to say “disciple of my disciple”. The July 11 order began with the questions that many people are waiting for initiation now, so what to do? It was addressing the then current situation.

    The May 28th conversation began with the question “how to continue initiations particularly when you are no longer with us?” This indicates that May 28th is the final order date related to initiations when Prabhupada is no longer with us as it addresses the specific question. If you don’t want to jump over Prabhupada, how can you jump over the faithful representatives of Prabhupada, and that too when Prabhupada has said “disciple of my disciple”?

    Pratyatosha prabhu, you say that Prabhupada has personally ordered you that the proxy system of initiation and people becoming disciples of Prabhupada was personally ordered to you by Prabhupada to Your Grace. But others say that Prabhupada ordered them to become spiritual masters. Is there any reason why I must blindly believe that other’s testimony are not trustworthy and yours are? I don’t mean to offend you as you are my spiritual master’s godbrother, but I am made to think on these lines.

    If you say the July 11th order proves it, then we have evidences that that letter addresses a temporary situation as seen from Prabhupada’s statement, “India, I am here”. So how can a letter representing a temporary situation be considered as a final order? On the contrary on May 28th, when Prabhupada was asked “What will happen about initiations when you are no longer with us” Prabhupada said they are grand-disciple. Do you not find that this conversation and not the July 11 one deals with the exact problem at hand?

    >>The simple fact is, it doesn’t make any sense to have multiple gurus within a relatively small organization such as ISKCON

    First of all, there are many things in Krishna consciousness that may not make sense to our mind that is prone to four defects, but regardless of that they must be accepted if they are confirmed by Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. Secondly, ISKCON is not a small organization, it is a world body. Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to become spiritual masters. We need to spread this Sankirtan movement to the whole world, and for this many many more Gurus are needed.

    >>The fact that so many ISKCON gurus have been caught falling down simply provides even more proof that Srila Prabhupada was right all along

    Srila Prabhupada was always right, irrespective of ISKCON Gurus falling or not. The point of question is whether we have understood his instructions correctly or not. If you take the letter addressing the temporary situation where many people were waiting for initiation in 1977 July as an instruction for initiations forever when that particular case has been separately dealt on May 28th, then how can your understanding on that point be clear?

    >> Srila Prabhupada is the Founder Acharya of ISKCON, so within ISKCON, he is eternally the initiating guru

    Has Prabhupada made this statement anywhere that the founder of any institution alone has the right to be in initiating Guru forever? Or is it mentioned in any scripture? This same argument has been repeating time and again and everytime this argument has come I have asked for evidence. But no one has turned up with any evidence for the same. Later after a few posts, when everyone forgets my question of evidence, you again cite this argument hoping that this time I may forget to pose the same question again.

    Mr Mahesh, I have not asked you evidences to prove that a Guru has to be a maha-bhagavata, pure devotee. I agree that such a devotee is the most suitable candidate to be a spiritual master. I have mentioned that clearly in my previous comment. My point is that Prabhupada is much more exalted than all this and he has qualifications much more than all these qualifications. By saying that Prabhupada has these qualifications only, not me but you are lowering the position of Prabhupada.

    I agree that Prabhupada is much higher than this. My question is “where is it mentioned in any scriptures or in any statements of Prabhupada that a spiritual master must be equal to Srila Prabhupada? That is a very simple question. A spiritual master may have all the qualifications mentioned by you but may not be equal to Prabhupada, because Prabhupada has not only all these qualifications but has much more. Is this not a simple mathematics? And thanks for your usual set of bad words and ill language.

    >>Only problem for these blind alley worshipers, since 35 years, temples in the West remain empty. Instead, Indian immigrants are using these “bona fide Vaishnava temples” to have their monthly Hindu family celebrations

    If temples remaining empty and Krishna consciousness not being practiced makes someone bogus, then after Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the whole of Navadvip was destroyed and later on many sahajiyas propagated that their sahajiya approach was actual Vaishnavism. Even the business minded people shifted the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. It was Bhaktivinoda Thakura who revived the whole Vaishnavism.

    So going by your logic, those acharyas who were before Bhaktivinoda Thakura couldn’t do anything because they were not bonafide. So the only bonafide person before Bhaktivinoda Thakura in our sampradaya was Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as per your logic. Since Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaj was present during the time when the sahajiyas were popular all over Bengal, are you making a statement that he was not bonafide? I don’t mean so, but your logic gives rise to all such bogus conclusions. Every acharya in a sampradaya comes with a mission and he accomplishes the same being empowered by Krishna. That is pretty simple to understand it.

    >>obviously as we see, there are hardly any Westerners in Western Vaishnava temples

    What should make me believe that Guru issue is the only reason for temples being vacant? Can there not be other reasons? We all know how much ISKCON is deviating more into charity work than preaching, as can be seen from their feeding the poor program, providing food so that children are encouraged to go to schools and get demoniac education etc etc. Why don’t you see the temples that are doing good? Go to Salem temple, and see how they are doing. Go to ISKCON Vellore, see how they are doing.

    See how many people dedicate their lives in ISKCON Chowpatty every year. Those following Prabhupada’s instructions are doing wonderfully well. But you people never know any of these because most of you have not visited any of these temples. Those who have visited have ill intentions and will never reveal the truth. Why don’t you come and see? Why are you blindly believing your authorities(who have indirectly become your Gurus)?

    First come and see, then speak. The very fact that you are afraid that if you visit any of these temples you will become an offender itself proves that your authorities have made you their disciples indirectly and have induced a mentality of following their order else getting the aparadha of not obeying a Guru. THIS IS THE GREATEST PROBLEM WITH RITVIKISM, IT MAKES IT EASY FOR SOMEONE TO BECOME AN ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY OVER HIS FOLLOWERS”. Whereas if you are under GBC, it is very difficult. Firstly in presence of your spiritual master you can’t reach that level without his permission.

    Later on, you need to prove to GBC that you are worth it by coming to the levels as ordained in scriptures which is an extremely high standard. After that, the qualified Gurus judge you and see if you are really on that level, and then after you are really qualified, still only if approved by majority of Gurus that you are really qualified you can start initiating disciples. It may take years to reach that level, or even lifetimes.

    But Ritvikism is an easy process and once a person stays in ISKCON for around two years, he will be ready to influence someone into Krishna consciousness, even if the person has not yet reached 16 rounds, and the follower believes his leader absolutely. Because it is easy(sahaja) this process is called SAHAJIYA.

    Reply
87. Krishna das says:

    8. April 2013 at 9:33 am

    Regarding the poision issue, there are many faults in the allegation. Please go through every line of the following book if you are really interested in knowing the truth and not just bluffing:

    http://www.rvc.edu/rvc_publications/Poison_Antidote.pdf

    I will give you one silly point to refute such allegation.

    People allege that there is whispering going on in the background of conspiring to give poison. Let me put a few contents from the tape here. In the first whisper, the devotee who alleges the poisoning puts that devotees are saying “Poison is going down” and are giggling. In the second whisper the devotees are saying “Let’s put poison in the milk”. Do you find any logical fallacy here? By mercy of Danavir Maharaj I can clearly see one. Firstly, the poison has already started going down into Prabhupada’s body. After that the devotees whisper that they will put poison in the milk. After that Prabhupada drinks it. Is the sequence not wrong?

    The devotee who alleged this had to do much more homework to avoid such loopholes in his false allegations. Unfortunately he got caught. There are many more loopholes, please read the book in the link I have mentioned. I am sure none of you will read, because it will be like disobeying the orders of your mentor(who has taken the role of your spiritual master).

    Reply
88. david schmohl says:

    8. April 2013 at 10:26 am

    Thanks Krishna das for reminding that ISKCON’s present guru system is the best thing what could happen to mislead suffering humanity and should go on exactly like that for the next 10,000 years! May be some like Bhavananda should be rehabilitated? Also thanks for pointing out that to criticize 50 fallen “uttama-mahabhagavat-jagat-guru, as good as God-acaryas”, is ill language and dangerous aparadha. I’ll have to learn and study all this knowledge coming from you.

    Last night Rocana Dasa, chief executive officer, CEO, of Sampradaya Sun was seen yelling out of his house in Montreal. He said something like: Why nobody is sending articles anymore?

    So this is my suggestion that you are an intelligent educated boy, disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Danavir Goswami Maharaja, why don’t you write substantial articles to have ISKCON’s three-fourths vote guru system prolonged? HG Rocana Das (CEO) will surely pay you well!

    Back it up! Especially for those who feel cheated by this flood of failing gurus nowadays. This blog is of no importance and hardly read by Danavir Goswami’s disciples. Whereas Sampradaya Sun is a genuine HTML website with millions of readers. Thanks for your understanding! All the best! So long!

    Reply
89. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

    8. April 2013 at 8:41 pm

    When someones main focus is to climb the ladder of position and place in ISKCON, and that is their main motive or driving force in their spiritual practice then it is difficult, if not impossible, to HEAR anything that might shake that ladder. After years of bowing to the commands and demands of seniors and gurus, if someone feels they are finally climbing the ladder and that one day they will be the one worshiped, obeyed, and served, then it will be difficult, if not impossible, to HEAR.

    Reply
90. Amar Puri says:

    8. April 2013 at 10:23 pm

    Wow…….. Krishna das is the disciple of Dhanavir Maharaja who is unheard and unknown to me because Srila Prabhupada did not appoint his Ritvik Representative as per July 09th letter. I thought that this Krishna das is one of the Maharaja himself who is playing vigorously offending and defending games constantly and consistently to protect and promote this bogus gurus in the present Iskcon.

    Krishna das, please read and understand it carefully once and for all that from the tape of May 28th, June tape and other Instructions of Srila Prabhupada, a sincere person can see that the “gurus” placed a great deal of importance on this tape to substantiate their claims, but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru. But Srila Prabhupada, seeing past, present, and future, knew that this tape would be used to exploit the devotees.

    And so within this tape he planted one very important line that gives us the all-important clue as to what is the authoritative explanation on the subject of guru after his departure. He gave that clue by quoting “amara ajnaya guru hana.” Nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that a bona fide guru, a guru who actually sees Krsna face to face, can be appointed. The statement, “He’s actually guru, but by my order,” simply means that everyone is ordered to become guru by repeating what Srila Prabhupada has taught us. It is not necessary to wait to see Krsna face to face to become guru and preach. Everyone should preach immediately by repeating what Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya have spoken. That is the meaning of “amara ajnaya guru hana” as explained below by Srila Prabhupada. Everyone must preach from whatever level of realization he is on. But that kind of guru, and the actual liberated guru, are two different things. One is called diksa, and the other is called siksa. Anyone who repeats the message purely can become siksa-guru immediately. One’s wife, one’s mother, a prostitute, a beggar, a Godbrother, etc. Everyone is ordered to become guru in that sense. It is not possible to be ordered to become a pure devotee. The bona fide diksa-guru must be a pure devotee that is actually liberated. That is the conclusion of all of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on these two types of gurus. This May tape does not in any way contradict those instructions.

    Srila Prabhupada’s quoting the verse from Caitanya-caritamrta, “amara ajnaya guru hana” (Cc. Mad. 7.128) is so significant I am herein quoting the entire section from the Caitanya-caritamrta. I humbly suggest that the devotees read it carefully. It fully substantiates the conclusions in given in Chapter Nine.
    “The brahmana (Kurma) begged Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “My dear Lord, kindly show me favor and let me go with You. I can no longer tolerate the waves of misery caused by materialistic life. (Cc. Mad. 7.126)
    “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Don’t speak like that again. Better to remain at home and chant the holy name of Krsna always.” (Cc. Mad. 7.127)

    Purport by Srila Prabhupada: “It is not advisable in this age of Kali to leave one’s family suddenly, for people are not trained as proper brahmacaris and grhasthas. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised the brahmana not to be too eager to give up family life. It would be better to remain with his family and try to become purified by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra regularly under the direction of a spiritual master. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If this principle is followed by everyone, there is no need to accept sannyasa. In the next verse Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises everyone to become an ideal householder by offenselessly chanting the Hare Krsna mantra and teaching the same principle to everyone he meets.”

    “Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in the land.” (Cc. Mad. 7.128)

    Purport by Srila Prabhupada: “This is the sublime mission of ISKCON. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra…. If one is a little literate and can read Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men. Instead of living engrossed in material activities, people throughout the world should take advantage of this movement and chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra at home with their families. One should also refrain from sinful activities-illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Out of these four items, illicit sex is very sinful. Every person must get married. Every woman especially must get married. If the women outnumber the men, some men can accept more than one wife. In that way there will be no prostitution in society. If men can marry more than one wife, illicit sex life will be stopped…. The Krsna consciousness movement is trying to elevate human society to the perfection of life by pursuing the method described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His advice to the brahmana Kurma. That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.”

    “Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further advised the brahmana Kurma, “If you follow this instruction, your materialistic life at home will not obstruct your spiritual advancement. Indeed, if you follow these regulative principles, we will again meet here, or, rather, you will never lose My company.” (Cc. Mad. 7.129)

    Purport by Srila Prabhupada: “This is an opportunity for everyone. If one simply follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His representative, and chants the Hare Krsna mantra, teaching everyone as far as possible the same principle, the contamination of the materialistic way of life will not even touch him. It does not matter whether one lives in a holy place like Vrndavana, Navadwipa or Jagannatha Puri or in the midst of European cities where the materialistic way of life is very prominent. If a devotee follows the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he lives in the company of the Lord. Wherever he lives, he converts that place into Vrndavana and Navadvipa. This means that materialism cannot touch him. This is the secret of success for one advancing in Krsna consciousness.

    “At whosoever’s house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma. (Cc. Mad. 7.130)

    Purport by Srila Prabhupada: “The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer, or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles and be freed from the contamination of material life….

    To protect his preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Caitanya-caritamrta.

    Now, I sincerely do hope that this Krishna das stops writing non-sense in defence of the bogus gurus of all sorts and waste no further time in this regard.

    All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

    OM TAT SAT.

    Reply
91. Puranjana dasa says:

    9. April 2013 at 1:29 am

    Danavir’s oneiskcon folks write — that anyone who associates with the Gaudiya Matha folks and Narayana Maharaja in particular is: — a sahajiya; A rascal; An apa-sampradaya deviant; a person who is envious of ISKCON; a person who is not loyal to Srila Prabhupada; a fool; an idiot etc.

    Which explains why — the oneiskcon site simultaneously ALWAYS advertises Tamal, the ring leader and king master who brought Narayana Maharaja’s rasika guru club into ISKCON in the first place. Tamal would have been booted out of ISKCON in 1993 for being the NM groupie’s pied piper, except Gaura Govinda maharaja stood up and said, “We need to keep Tamal, he is doing such great service” (aka bringing in the bogus rasika guru NM).

    This is called hypocrisy. Either the NM rasika club was and is bogus — thus its found father ring leader Tamal is thereby bogus, or its not? They cannot make two simultaneously contrary statements, but they are. I have asked them to explain this and they said “you are crazy.” OK that does not explain their contrary statements, at all? ys pd

    Reply
92. Krishna das says:

    9. April 2013 at 9:01 am

    >>When someone’s main focus is to climb the ladder of position and place in ISKCON, and that is their main motive or driving force in their spiritual practice then it is difficult, if not impossible, to HEAR anything that might shake that ladder

    Agreed fruit seller, that is the main reason why people don’t want to follow the usual GBC process to become an absolute authority by proving one’s qualification but instead have devised a technique to become authorities directly by telling everyone that “Actually Prabhupada is your authority, and I am repeating his message, so listen to me. Others are not repeating his message, so don’t listen to them and don’t associate with them”. In this way all these ritviks achieve their selfish motive of becoming an absolute controller. That is why Chaitanya mahaprabhu has warned us against dhanam, janam, sundarim. Janam comes before sundarim, see how dangerous it is. And following the GBC way involves rigorous purification process and then you need to prove to those exalted leaders that you are really pure and qualified, who will take all that trouble. This is very easy, we can tell people “Actually I am taking you to Prabhupada, he is delivering you, so listen to me.”

    >>but the fact is that this tape, at least in its present condition, is the least authoritative explanation of guru

    This is a concoction, Apara Puri. The conversation begins with the question “Concerning initiations in future, particularly at the time you are no longer with us”. That proves that this conversation is meant to address this particular issue and so that makes it the most authentic conversation regarding the Guru issue. On the contrary the July 11 letter begins with “Many people are waiting for initiations, what can we do” indicating that it was meant to address only that particular scenario. Also, Prabhupada further confirmed the same when he said “India, I am here”. So it clear that this letter was meant to address that specific scenario. And you all have still not answered my one doubt, is there any evidence that there is no possibility of Prabhupada not giving any personal instructions to his disciples before or after july 11th to become Gurus? And also is it necessary that the order has to be explicit when Prabhupada has clearly said that the order can be implicit. “amara ajnaya guru hana”, the ajnaya can be implicit also, there is no need of any explicit order as told by Prabhupada.

    Prabhupada says on 17th August 1968 as follows:
    One has to hear it properly, assimilate it, and then practice it in life and preach the same thing. Then everyone becomes spiritual master. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ‘sarva-desa: “O My dear disciples, I tell you that you, all of you, become spiritual master. Simply you carry out My order. That’s all.” “And what is Your order?” “The order is the same: yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa. Just like Krsna gave instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, and if you simply place the instruction received from Bhagavad- gita as it is…”

    Secondly, is it necessary that when Prabhupada said the statement “when I order you to become a regular Guru”, it necessarily means a future order? Can it not mean a present order wherein Prabhupada said “when I order”, meaning that when the founder acharya of ISKCON is ordering you to be a regular Guru, he becomes a disciple of my disciple, that’s it. Why can’t Prabhupada’s statement mean this? I know what you all will say, Krishna das is concocting, and we have taken Prabhupada’s statement as it is. Can you give me any reason why your interpretation is alone as it is understanding, and our understanding is not as it is understanding? I know you all will only use bad words, ill language etc, but the onus now is on you to prove why your understanding of Prabhupada’s statement “when I order” is only correct and our understanding is wrong. If you are unable to prove this, then all the word jugglery, the sentimental blackmail that we are against Prabhupada, threatening that we will go to hell forever etc etc is all a garbage and you must admit that you are not following Prabhupada.

    And Puranjana prabhu, since I was not there during the late 70s I can not comment as to what exactly happened in ISKCON at that time. But at the same time I can’t directly accept a single authority in this matter without finding out from an authentic source. But that in no way proves that Prabhupada is not supposed to have successor spiritual masters. When we are discussing Guru issue, why bring out other issues in this forum? Are you not misdirecting the readers elsewhere just to make them not concentrate on the pitfalls of the ritvik theory, that too when you people are not able to answer my questions authoritatively?

    Reply
93. Kausalya dd says:

    9. April 2013 at 11:34 am

    In order to produce relief and find a remedy for KrishnaDas’ tribulation what reminds of digestive problem, insomnia, chronic migraine, why does he actually worry? Everything he says is put into practice within modern ISKCON, see today report from Australia (http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-13/editorials10005.htm)

    KrishnaDas should simply be satisfied, lean back, let loose and do his service, instead of feeling such inflamed restlessness.
    Or is it bad conscience?

    Everything present GBC does is 100% exactly what he is dreaming of how things should be done.
    Does he figure of writing all this “to help some lost sheep”?

    Not quite sure, ISKCON/ GBC law is to have ritviks excommunicated. No mention to have an ISKCON movement with both, ritviks and living gurus side by side?

    KrishnaDas might figure Prabhupadanugas will increase someone has to countersteer? As said above, this is the wrong forum, he might rather write articles at Sampradaya Sun. Something like, Instructions manual: How to shovel fifty fallen ISKCON acaryas under the rug?
    Any suggestions?

    Reply
94. Mahesh Raja says:

    9. April 2013 at 12:07 pm

    “Krishna das” (Baboon worshiper Crook):
    People allege that there is whispering going on in the background of conspiring to give poison. Let me put a few contents from the tape here. In the first whisper, the devotee who alleges the poisoning puts that devotees are saying “Poison is going down” and are giggling. In the second whisper the devotees are saying “Let’s put poison in the milk”. Do you find any logical fallacy here? By mercy of Danavir Maharaj I can clearly see one. Firstly, the poison has already started going down into Prabhupada’s body. After that the devotees whisper that they will put poison in the milk. After that Prabhupada drinks it. Is the sequence not wrong?

    Mahesh: No – there is NO logical fallacy. And NO the sequence is NOT wrong. The poison that was given was in MEDICINE ALSO. So the poison that was put in MILK can be a LATER dosage ALSO. Aside from that, what I have also heard from reliable source is that Cadimium was ALSO used.That is aside from Arsenic . Cadimium is PESTICIDE often used by the people in farms in India. Different poisons affect differently and also duration of TIMES can be different. Strength AND dosage given is also another consideration.

    Tamal Krishna’s voice is heard to say “PUT THE POISON IN THE MILK”

    http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/Prabhupada998.pdf

    The following site has whispers of the poison givers:

    To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click here or http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh

    And for Individual highlighted louder version of the whole CD , please go to http://www.culturedbooks.com/audio/audio-address.html

    The following are MAIN suspects in the poisoning of Srila Prabhupada:

    1) Tamal Krsna Goswami

    2) Jayapataka swami

    3) Jayadvaita swami

    4) Bhavananda

    5) Bhakti Caru swami

    6) There was an Indian voice who stated “Aksya Pyiabychari, poison is put in the milk?” (Possible reference to Aksyananda ?)

    “Krishna das” (Baboon worshiper Crook):
    In the second whisper the devotees are saying “Let’s put poison in the milk”

    Mahesh: So EVEN YOU are ADMITTING the FACT: “devotees are saying “Let’s put POISON in the milk”

    Thank-you very much!

    By the way Mr “Krishna das” you people are given to LIE AND TWIST the truth and so I do NOT accept your name as real. It about SCREWING MONEY and POWER : you INVENT your bogus CONDITIONED SOUL “gurus” :

    ISKCON’S conditioned soul bogus GBC rubber stamped gurus:
    WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
    by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
    FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
    FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
    FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
    FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
    FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
    FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
    FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.

    Reply
95. Krishna das says:

    9. April 2013 at 1:04 pm

    >>what I have also heard from reliable source

    That is the greatest flaw with you MR Mahesh. You consider those sources that suit your ambitions as reliable sources. That is why you are so much into darkness and ignorance. I am definitely sure you have not read the whole book. Read Bhakti Charu Swami’s testimonial, he openly says that if something like that can happen it must happen through him only because whatever Prabhupada ate at that time was through his hands only. Till I read Maharaj’s testimony I had seen people who when accused of something criminal would find ways to atleast save themselves from the situation first, and then if they were having some goodness would try to save others. But this is the first case ever in my life when someone when accused is the first to jump and declare that if such a poisoning can happen it must happen from his hands only, and if such a thing has happened he is ready to go to hell forever. If you read the next testimony of Ravindra Swarupa prabhu, he challenges Nityananda prabhu to give a counter oath saying that if Prabhupada is not poisoned and if all these allegations are false, he is ready to go to hell for ever. Till date nothing is heard from poisoning accusers to counter this challenge. If you want to understand it more clearly see here:

    http://www.thespiritualscientist.com/2011/01/refutation-of-poison-allegation/

    Don’t give round about concocted commentaries to prove your point.

    Why don’t you read Jayadvaita Maharaj’s “Where Ritviks are wrong?” also? I understand, it is because you are all expert in half chicken philosophy, taking one part of some letter or conversation etc that is suitable for you and leaving the rest of them, the way you did for may 28th conversation where you took only “Ritvik, Yes” and didn’t take “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple” and on july 11th, “they will be disciples of Prabhupada”, but didn’t take the sentence “India, I am here”. You are all expert in half chicken philosophy, you did that with Jayadvaita Maharaj, you did that with Prabhupada, you did that with Krishna also.

    Reply
96. Mahesh Raja says:

    9. April 2013 at 1:22 pm

    Srila Prabhupada showed symptoms of Kidney problems – Cadmium poison is here shown for the properties linking to Kidneys in farm enviornment:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19628295

    Reply
97. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

    9. April 2013 at 1:59 pm

    It’s obvious from Krishna das’s diatribes that the ISKCON “gurus” and their misguided followers are desperately trying to prove that Srila Prabhupada prescribed a multiple guru system for ISKCON. But the only way that they can do that is to give very great importance to the May 28th conversation, which just happened to be recorded, and which just happens to be one of the relatively few surviving tapes from 1977.

    Hansadutta Dasa, one of the original 11 “appointed gurus,” says it best:

    Letter to a Devotee Friend
    Hansadutta dasa,
    June 17, 1993

    In regards to gurus, Prabhupada left only one [written] document [letter of July 9, 1977] giving policy direction and individual names for initiation process, and it is clearly stated they will act as ritviks. Prabhupada left other policy documents, such as the BBT trust, the GBC direction of management, MVT, and he also recorded a last will and testament. But none of these formal policy documents says anything about acharyas or gurus initiating after his demise. The only document dealing with the issue of initiations is the letter of July 9, 1977.

    As for tape recordings of conversations Prabhupada had with various GBCs prior to his departure, they cannot be accepted as evidence in regards to this issue, because Prabhupada would discuss a particular point with his disciples from many different angles. BUT WHEN MAKING MAJOR POLICY CHANGES OR INTRODUCTIONS, Prabhupada was very deliberate and careful to formulate such policies on paper with signatures. Prabhupada was very businesslike and did not do things whimsically or carelessly. Certainly the most IMPORTANT QUESTION in his mind and in the mind of his leading disciples at the time of his disappearance was who will initiate and under what circumstances such initiations will take place. The answer is plain and simple in his letter of July 9th, 1977. However, Prabhupada’s disciples, being filled with ambition for more than merely continuing to act as his representatives (ritviks) or deputies, simply exaggerated their position and justified this ambitious fever by disregarding the letter dated 9th of July, 1977 and magnified some conversations which took place prior to the letter of July 9th, 1977.

    But Prabhupada never gave instructions to his worldwide ISKCON movement through vague, hissing tapes. Prabhupada wrote letters (7,000 at least) and recorded trust documents, and ultimately he left a last will and testament. Why should we focus on a vague, hissing tape?

    In 1979 or 1980, Topanga Canyon, California, I was present with Tamal Krishna Goswami when he admitted publicly before a large assembly of devotees:

    Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He did not appoint eleven gurus. He appointed eleven ritvik [officiating priests]. He never appointed them as gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement for the last three years, because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus…

    Even in a court of law such evidence as tapes would not hold any weight in the presence of written documents. Prabhupada used to say, “You can say anything, but don’t put it in writing.”

    So the conclusion is simple, if we simply agree to accept it. Prabhupada appointed 11 ritviks for initiating on his behalf. If anyone can produce a document or a letter stating otherwise, let it be seen. But putting so much merit on vague, hissing tape recordings in regards to such a serious issue as guru and acharya is completely out of order. Because rank and file devotees are innocent, they have unquestioningly accepted the overblown, exaggerated proposal made by their senior godbrothers, but judging a thing by its result, we can understand now after 16 years that it was the fever of pratistha which induced the senior godbrothers to overestimate and overstep the actual role that Prabhupada ordered them to play—namely as deputies, representatives, ritviks, or in other words monitors in the class in the absence of the teacher.

    Any sane, humble devotee can see this, and all devotees can live and serve Prabhupada harmoniously under this management. But to have dozens of so-called acharya-gurus, each with their small band of fanatic, neophyte followers will result only in chaos, confusion and ULTIMATELY DISINTEGRATION of Prabhupada’s preaching mission worldwide.

    Actually, that has already happened in the USA. That has been demonstrated full-blown. It is a matter of time only before the same disintegration of the unified ISKCON preaching mission will take its toll in all the countries of the world.

    (http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/hans-ritvik.htm)

    Reply
98. Puranjana dasa says:

    9. April 2013 at 4:10 pm

    Bhakti Caru said, someone gave him poison here. Anyway, Krishna das has handily forgot to answer the point, that oneiskcon says Narayana Maharaja is bogus — and no one from his group should be allowed in ISKCON. At the same EXACT time they promote Tamal, the founder father of the NM deviation? We are for it, but we are against it? First of all you folks have to figure out what you are actually for and what you are against, you have not done so. If you do not know what you are for and what you are not, you are confused, you are on the material platform. ys pd

    Reply
99. mark says:

    9. April 2013 at 5:15 pm

    Getting technical, the truth is that there is a real difference between a ritvik acarya, and a ritvik representative of the acarya.

    The latter is the office of appointment.

    Apparently “ritvik acarya” was just another carrot to keep the loonies in line, as it can be contended that “ritvik acarya” was equated with Diksa on one’s own behalf with the use of the word “granddisciple”. I was able to argue the use of “granddisciple” to mean Siksa guru only, but it wasn’t very strong. Which is why I believe it was the use of “ritvik acarya” was the carrot of the moment in May, and the Lord reduced it down to “representative” (priest) ONLY in the Final order on the subject.

    Reply
100. Amar Puri says:

     9. April 2013 at 6:53 pm

     Krishna das, always quotes half statement of Srila Prabhupada repeatedly in every comments not only to mislead innocent people but also to strengthen his bogus position of gurus in Iskcon in this public forum when he writes as such :

     “India, I am here”. So it is clear that this letter was meant to address that specific scenario …………..”

     Here below is the real conversation in part that took place in June;

     Tam: Some devotees are writing you now for second initiation. And I’m writing them to wait a while, because you are not well. So can I continue to tell them that?

     SP: They can do second initiation.

     Tam: By writing you?

     SP: No. These men.

     Tam: These men. They can also do second initiation. So there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these persons are still your disciples. Anybody who would give initiation is doing so on your behalf.

     SP: Yes.

     Tam: You know that book I’m maintaining of all your disciples’ names? Should I continue that?

     SP: Hmmm.

     Tam: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikesh Maharaja, he should send the person’s name to us here, and I’ll enter it in the book. (Long pause) Is there someone else in India that you want to do this.

     SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.

     Tam: Jayapataka Maharaja.

     SP: You are also in India. (Long pause) You can note down these names.

     Tam: Yes, I have them. (The list is read, and Srila Prabhupada adds two more names-Hrdayananda and Ramesvara.

     SP: (Long pause) So without waiting for me, whoever you consider deserves. That will depend on discretion.

     Tam: On discretion.

     SP: Yes.

     Tam: That’s for first and second initiations?

     SP: Hmmm.

     NOTE: One very obvious question: If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape? Why was Tamala still trying to get Prabhupada to say something else? The answer is obvious. They hadn’t yet conceived their plot and dubbed the May tape. There is no mention in this tape of the ritviks becoming anything special after Srila Prabhupada’s departure. As such there is no question of construing an appointment of gurus from these two transcripts. But since the May tape was tampered with, not only is it not valid evidence, but it is conclusive evidence as to the demoniac nature of the “gurus”-just the opposite of the divine nature they claimed the tape represented.

     Krishna das Srila Prabhupada says in the conversation;

     SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.

     Tam: Jayapataka Maharaja.

     SP: You are also in India. (Long pause) You can note down these names.

     Tam: Yes, I have them. (The list is read, and Srila Prabhupada adds two more names-Hrdayananda and Ramesvara.

     SP: (Long pause) So without waiting for me, whoever you consider deserves. That will depend on discretion.

     Tam: On discretion.

     SP: Yes.

     Tam: That’s for first and second initiations?

     SP: Hmmm.

     SO KRISHNA DAS, that is how the conversation takes place as described above not the way you are presenting deceitfully.

     Srila Prabhupada happens to be in India when this conversation took place. That is why Srila Prabhupada said ” SP: India I am here we shall see. In India-Jayapataka.” The conversation goes on…….

     Now it proves that you are ALSO one of the CHEATERS. Thus, a cheater goes to get cheated.

     Therefore, STOP wasting time in writing your non-sense comments as I humbly suggested you in my previous comments.

     Hope you take this message seriously.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Hari BOL.

     YS…….. Amar Puri.

     Reply
101. Mahesh Raja says:

     9. April 2013 at 11:06 pm

     Krishna das (Baboon worshiper CROOK): …and didn’t take “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”

     Mahesh: because you IGNORANT people worship Baboons you can NOT grasp that this has been explained in DETAIL before:

     WHEN I order
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Reply
102. Puranjana dasa says:

     10. April 2013 at 2:35 am

     KRISHNA DAS: And Puranjana prabhu, since I was not there during the late 70s I can not comment as to what exactly happened in ISKCON at that time.

     PD: All you need to do is to read the GBC reports made at the time, “made in consultation with higher authorities” aka Sridhara Maharaja. We have analysed many of the transcripts of the era, it was well known Sridhara Maharaja had become what Satsvarupa said was “the seniormost vaishnava on the planet.” Who else had they made their higher authority? And in 1982 they said Sridhara was a demon who was stealing disciples from ISKCON, and anyone who went there was banned. That means they were saying Sridhara is a bona fide guru, and a demon, that means they have no idea what they are talking about.

     But at the same time I can’t directly accept a single authority in this matter without finding out from an authentic source.

     [PADA: There are many transcripts, including on the Sridhara folks web sites.]

     But that in no way proves that Prabhupada is not supposed to have successor spiritual masters.

     [PADA: We never said there was not ever going to be more gurus, we said these people are not gurus.]

     When we are discussing Guru issue, why bring out other issues in this forum?

     [PADA: Because if you follow people who do not know if they are promoting a guru or a demon, you have no more discrimination than they do.]

     Are you not misdirecting the readers elsewhere just to make them not concentrate on the pitfalls of the ritvik theory, that too when you people are not able to answer my questions authoritatively?

     [PADA: There are not pitfalls, we never say worship a guru then tell people they are really worshiping a demon, that never happens in our process. ys pd]

     Reply
103. Krishna das says:

     10. April 2013 at 9:00 am

     If Hamsaduta maharaj gives testimony for ritvikism, there were many more present there who give testimony supporting having disciples of Prabhupada as Gurus. So, which one must we accept, why must we accept this one testimony only?

     >>First of all you folks have to figure out what you are actually for and what you are against. We are for Prabhupada and we are bent forward to follow his instructions as it is. When asked what about initiations when you are no longer with us, he said “They are his disciple”, “granddisciple” and “disciple of my disciple”. We must follow these instructions of his as it is, we are not for anyone else.

     Amara Puri, does it not prove that Prabhupada is speaking only of a scenario when he was physically present? Even your pasting the whole conversation, still the meaning of “India, I am here” is the same, that Prabhupada is speaking of his physical presence. Else he could say, “as of now I am here in India. In future others can take charge when I am no longer with you”. Prabhupada was clear in his instructions.

     >>If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape?

     For a very simple reason Amara Puri, the july 11th letter was not at all meant to address that issue. May 28th was a totally different issue, the scenario of Prabhupada being no longer with us. July 11th was meant to address the scenario of Prabhupada being unfit to travel and give initiations to all those who were waiting all over the world. So, when addressing the scenario wherein Prabhupada was unable to travel all over the world to give initiations, why will Tamala Krishna maharaj mix the scenario of Prabhupada no longer being with us with this one? I think I have explained it very clearly, but for those who don’t want to understand, what can be done?

     And Puranjana prabhu whatever history of ISKCON you have mentioned in no way proves that the current Gurus are all not bonafide. They are not in any way interrelated. Please provide evidences that current ISKCON Gurus are not bonafide, that’s it. I am sorry, being a god brother of my spiritual master, you deserve a lot of respect equal to him. I have no intentions to disrespect you, but I wanted to gain this knowledge.

     Reply
104. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     10. April 2013 at 9:24 am

     Dear Krishna das, you are obviously very intelligent and a good debater,… I even agreed with some of the points you’ve made from time to time. However, when you write; “In this way all these ritviks achieve their selfish motive of becoming an absolute controller” I experience you as dishonest,… and perhaps even a little desperate? How could you possibly know the MOTIVES of ALL THESE RITVIKS? Are you telling me you can see right into ALL of their hearts?? If not, then I must conclude you’re speaking a falsehood simply to bolster your position?
     Why would someone who is as absolutely convinced as you seem to be, need to stoop to this kind of behaviour? Come’on prabhu, you have taken it upon yourself to represent your own guru and to become the mouthpiece within this forum for all ISKCON gurudom. I am not a Ritvik, and I don’t have an attachment to their victory or defeat within this debate. But when you let slip like this I think it just strengthens the argument that some current ISKCON guru’s and followers are prone to stretch the truth or distort facts to fit ‘their’ own motives!
     Just a fruit-seller.

     Reply
105. Mahesh Raja says:

     10. April 2013 at 11:48 am

     What we find is that the ill-manered people who attack us Prabhupadanugas who accept the Ritvik system are simply a bunch of idiots. They worship their CONDITIONED soul “physical” Baboons and attack us for worshipping Srila Prabhupada in his picture and teachings:

     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-13/editorials10006.htm

     VIDHYABHUSHAN DAS :
     Similarly, to escape the trouble of searching for, surrendering to and serving a physical bona fide Guru and for the fear of fall-down, some so-called devotees simply accept a picture of Srila Prabhupada as Guru. Thus they are more dangerous and belong to a new apa-sampradaya sect which has sprouted out as a reaction to the fall-down of Gurus, nothing else.

     Mahesh: here is what Srila Prabhupada says:
     72-09-04. Letter: Jadurani
     There is no difference between me and my picture. Therefore we should honor and keep pictures in that spirit.

     72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
     Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings.

     74-11-22. Letter: Bahurupa
     In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

     Los Angeles, California 90034730513mw.la Conversations
     Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
     Prabhupada: Well, the questions… Answers are there in my books.
     Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in…
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
     Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     70-01-24. Letter: Ranadhira
     Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice–in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

     70-02-14.Sac Letter: Sacisuta
     If you simply chant your rounds daily as prescribed and stick strictly to the rules and regulations, all these questions will automatically be answered by Krsna as Supersoul. You may refer in this connection to Bhagavad gita, (10:10), “To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” and (10:11), “Out of compassion for them, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” This process of understanding by devotional service is essential for developing Krsna Consciousness and you all must follow this program assiduously.

     72-02-19. Letter: Upendra
     (8) In other words, if you are sincere to serve continuously and always chanting, all such questions become answered automatically. I never asked my Spiritual Master one question except one: “How shall I serve you?” So in this way, kindly inform the others that I may be relieved to give you so many more nice books–that is my real desire.

     72-03-07.Ani Letter: Aniruddha
     Thank you very much for serving Krishna in this way, and if you go on sincerely serving like this, chanting, and following the regulative principles strictly, all your questions will be answered by Krishna automatically.

     SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
     The potency of transcendental sound is NEVER minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.

     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, THAT IS LIVING.

     72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
     Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.

     73-12-25. Letter: Gurukrpa , Yasodanandana
     Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction.

     Reply
106. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     10. April 2013 at 3:51 pm

     Good news is that KrishnaDas is gradually making advertisement for ritvikism. People see how he moves in a circle. Typical ISKCON approach to pick and choose but pretend to not see Prabhupada’s overall conclusion concerning ongoing initiation system within his movement. Might have been similar when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta departed. Endless back and forth debates took place, although the order was easily comprehensible.

     Now KrishnaDas says, why Hansadutta’s single statement? There was TKG as well, in fact, meanwhile all ISKCON’s rank and file don’t believe that Prabhupada appointed Jayatirtha, Kirtanananda, Bhagavan, Harikesa, etc., etc., to be the next acaryas.

     Even Gaudiya-matha folks state, if Prabhupada actually appointed false gurus, this means he was also not a bona fide guru. In sum, no sincere person believes that Prabhupada told TKG and others to initiate their own disciples.

     Folks like KrishnaDas are caught up in an intricate position. Of course he can always point to GBC who set up this whole guru appointment scheme. GBC is primarily responsible and people figure, good, I’m out of the wood, if something is wrong, they’ll get caught, not me.
     Not so hastily!

     Someone who deliberately follows a wrong doctrine is also caught!
     You cannot shift the blame to others if you knowingly do wrong ( for a penny in for a pound).

     Reply
107. SG says:

     10. April 2013 at 5:50 pm

     Mahesh Raja says:
     10. April 2013 at 11:48 am

     “Prabhupadanugas who accept the Ritvik system are simply a bunch of idiots.”

     You are absolutely correct!

     There is no sastric evidence to back up the practice of
     POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION. The ritviks will not be able to
     quote from any sastras to prove that POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION
     is an authorized vedic practice.

     Srila Prabhupada would not introduce something that is not given
     in the sastras, that was not practiced before by the sadhus and that
     which was not authorized by the previous acharyas.

     S/B, Canto 4, Ch.16, Text 1. First Print 1974

     ” The great sage Maitreya continued: While King Prthu thus spoke,
     the humility of his nectarean speeches pleased the reciters very much.
     Then again they continued to praise the King highly with exalted prayers,
     as they had been instructed by the great sages.

     Srila Prabhupada explains :

     Here the word muni-coditah indicates instructions received from
     great sages and saintly persons. Although Maharaja Prthu was simply
     enthroned on the royal seat and was not at that time exhibiting his
     godly powers, nonetheless the reciters like the suta, the magadha
     and the vandi understood that King Prthu was an incarnation of God.
     They could understand this by the instructions given by the great
     sages and learned brahmanas. We have to understand the incarnations
     of God by the instructions of authorized persons. We cannot manufacture
     a God by our own concoctions.

     AS STATED BY NAROTTAMA DASA THAKURA, SADHU-SASTRA-GURU:
     ONE HAS TO TEST ALL SPIRITUAL MATTERS ACCORDING TO THE
     INSTRUCTIONS OF SAINTLY PERSONS, SCRIPTURES, AND THE
     SPIRITUAL MASTER.

     THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE WHO FOLLOWS THE INSTRUCTIONS
     OF HIS PREDECESSORS, NAMELY THE SADHUS, OR SAINTLY PERSONS.
     A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER DOES NOT MENTIONED ANYTHING
     NOT MENTIONED IN THE AUTHORIZED SCRIPTURES.

     ORDINARY PEOPLE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS OF SADHUS,
     SASTRA AND GURU. THOSE STATEMENTS MADE IN THE SASTRAS AND
     THOSE MADE BY THE BONA FIDE SADHU OR GURU CANNOT DIFFER FROM
     ONE ANOTHER.”

     “attack us for worshiping Srila Prabhupada in his picture and teachings”

     Fool, no one is attacking you or the ritviks for worshiping
     Srila Prabhupada in his picture or his teaching.
     Use your brains a little bit, will ya!

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
108. Mahesh Raja says:

     10. April 2013 at 9:08 pm

     SG: Srila Prabhupada would not introduce something that is not given
     in the sastras, that was not practiced before by the sadhus and that
     which was not authorized by the previous acharyas.

     Mahesh:
     “Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different than that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected.”
     (Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)

     “An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness may be spread.”
     (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)

     Note: The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
     “Srimad Viraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them Vaisnavas.”
     (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)

     Note: Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
     761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
     Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

     The 1st and 2nd initiations are FORMALITIES when Srila Prabhupada introduced Ritvik System this does not mean that anything changed in terms of giving Diksa as per SB 10.2.18 where Krsna is TRANSFERED in a pure devotees heart :

     Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap. This is why In Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada we sing Janme janme prabhu sei:

     760805BG.PAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada is WITH US TO GUIDE US through difficult journey of transmigration cycle to attaining Back to Godhead IF we follow him. Bilvamangal Thakura’s Spiritual master came thru a prostitute to deliver him so Srila Prabhupada is also SO POWERFUL to help us:

     SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
     IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
     Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
     Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.

     Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA

     SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
     The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE
     TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     Conclusion :
     What we find is that the ill-mannered people who attack us Prabhupadanugas who accept the Ritvik system are simply a bunch of idiots. They worship their CONDITIONED soul “physical” Baboons and attack us for worshipping Srila Prabhupada in his picture and teachings.

     SG looks like he has a CONDITIONED SOUL pet Baboon he wants to worship instead of Srila Prabhupada the FACTUAL giver of Diksa in ISKCON. He is upset that Srila Prabhupada gives Diksa instead of his pet Baboon.

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
109. Gangadhara Dasa says:

     10. April 2013 at 9:11 pm

     “There is no sastric evidence to back up the practice of
     POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION. The ritviks will not be able to
     quote from any sastras to prove that POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION
     is an authorized vedic practice.”

     This is of course exact same type of confidence trick, dupery and swizzle what brought Gaudiya-matha to their knees. Turned Gaudiya-matha into a nuthouse (loony bin) starting in January 2, 1937.

     People same caliber like “SG” constantly nagging (crying fit) that there has to be a living guru sitting on the throne although Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja would not appoint anyone.

     Finally they ended up to install every year a new acarya because the previous one passed out when accepting karmas of his disciples (emergency hospitalization).

     In other words, exact same scenario like today. Only difference, it happens in the West where defective religions are not tolerated like in India but crushed in the shredder into fine sized pieces.

     These are the “teachings” of SG, jubilantly repeat Gaudiya-matha January 2, 1937 weirdo beardo fiasco.

     Reply
110. Mahesh Raja says:

     10. April 2013 at 9:50 pm

     SG:Fool, no one is attacking you or the ritviks for worshiping
     Srila Prabhupada in his picture or his teaching.
     Use your brains a little bit, will ya!

     Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada’s TEACHINGS ARE: July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order:There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     SG have YOU got brains at all to UNDERSTAND THIS instruction? Go figure.

     As for your “no one is attacking you or the ritviks for worshiping
     Srila Prabhupada in his picture” :

     “some so-called devotees simply accept a picture of Srila Prabhupada as Guru. Thus they are more dangerous and belong to a new apa-sampradaya sect which has sprouted out as a reaction to the fall-down of Gurus, nothing else

     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-13/editorials10006.htm

     VIDHYABHUSHAN DAS :
     Similarly, to escape the trouble of searching for, surrendering to and serving a physical bona fide Guru and for the fear of fall-down, some so-called devotees simply accept a picture of Srila Prabhupada as Guru. Thus they are more dangerous and belong to a new apa-sampradaya sect which has sprouted out as a reaction to the fall-down of Gurus, nothing else

     SG you people are a bunch of DISHONEST LIARS. This is WHY Srila Prabhupada can NOT be YOUR Diksa guru. INSTEAD Krsna arranges you to get some CONDITIONED SOUL pet Baboons to follow life after life. This is Justice. Krsna is BENEFACTOR of TRUTHFUL devotee NOT DISHONEST LIARS:

     SB 1.2.17 Divinity and Divine Service
     Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone’s heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee,

     Reply
111. mark says:

     10. April 2013 at 11:22 pm

     SG : “Fool, no one is attacking you or the ritviks for worshiping Srila Prabhupada in his picture or his teaching. Use your brains a little bit, will ya!’

     Yes they are. Apparently you are fool #1 with a useless brain.

     http://www.srikrishnamandir.org/rtvik-initiations-in-bangladesh-adventure-at-the-frontier/

     I wonder if SG and Krishna das are among the dirtbags who were involved in this latest criminal attack on ritvik proponents.

     Reply
112. Mahesh Raja says:

     10. April 2013 at 11:36 pm

     Our Prabhupadanuga point is: if you ANTI Srila Prabhupada Diksa guru camp do have a Diksa guru then PROVE it that this person is PROMINENT ACARYA because ONLY PROMINENT ACARYA is to be FOLLOWED. So WHERE is YOUR PROOF? All you ANTI Ritvik folks are HYPOCRITES. SUPERFICIALLY you claim to love Srila Prabhupada but just want to USURP his position as Diksa Guru, Temples, Properties, Disciples. This is HOW ENVIOUS you folks are of Srila Prabhupada. YOU Anti Ritvik folks are just after POSITIONS, MONEY, POWER, SELF WORSHIP, in ISKCON.

     Jumping over either way:

     a) WHY should they JUMP OVER the PROMINENT ACARYA Srila Prabhupada bearing in mind GAPS in the Disciplic succession of ACARYAS are acceptable?

     b) Nobody can Jump over PROMINENT ACARYA Srila Prabhupada to get diksa from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.

     Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

     “You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND IT FROM ME. This is called parampara system. YOU CANNOT JUMP OVER TO THE SUPERIOR GURU, NEGLECTING THE NEXT ACARYA, IMMEDIATE NEXT ACARYA.”

     Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dayananda, April 12, 1968:

     “Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system–namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.”

     Reply
113. Amar Puri says:

     10. April 2013 at 11:38 pm

     Again and again repeatedly non-sense comments totally out of context are posted by this Krishna das when he refutes the conversation of Srila Prabhupada June 04 tape which is self explanatory without any need of INTERPRETATION as this Krishna das states in his comments as follow ;

     Amar Puri >>If it were clear from the May tape that the new initiates would be the disciples of the ritviks, then why was none of this mentioned in this June tape?

     Krishna das ; For a very simple reason Amara Puri, the july 11th letter was not at all meant to address that issue. May 28th was a totally different issue, the scenario of Prabhupada being no longer with us. July 11th was meant to address the scenario of Prabhupada being unfit to travel and give initiations to all those who were waiting all over the world. So, when addressing the scenario wherein Prabhupada was unable to travel all over the world to give initiations, why will Tamala Krishna maharaj mix the scenario of Prabhupada no longer being with us with this one? I think I have explained it very clearly, but for those who don’t want to understand, what can be done?

     Can some body please print the copy of July 11th Letter ? Perhapas, this Krishna das can do it because he assumed and commented non-nonsensical as such to strengthen his belief.

     We all know that the July 9th letter was sent out to all the Temple President to follow the Instructions as set forth by Srila Prabhupada.

     The assumption of not only this Sadharan Jiva known as Krishna das to protect and promote the bogus gurus of all GRADATION but also many others who are misguided by their gurus is very much misleading because this conditioned jiva Krishna das speaks on behalf of Tamala and others who were and are absolutely desires of WANNA BE A GURU by hook or crook despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada knew all this way before the May 28th conversation and yet these gurus and their blind followers are protecting and promoting their respective positions of gurus of all GRADATION.

     As I said in my comments earlier that it is. indeed, a waste of time repeating the same over and over again which has been already clarified and posted on this thread by Srila Prabhupada’s followers regarding the issue of the Initiation Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

     Those who want to follow Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions are available to make their lives sublime in cultivating KC. and those who are desirous to deviate from it by following the deviant gurus of all GRADATION are also out there.

     We the conditioned Jivas have to chose according to our respective choices with our FREE WILL controlled under the Three Gunas

     Hope it meets satisfactory.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Hari BOL.

     OM TAT SAT.

     Reply
114. Balaram das says:

     11. April 2013 at 3:03 am

     Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear in a letter to Rupanuga prabhu, April 28, 1974, about the exalted position of the Acarya, with regards to his Guru Maharaj’s instructions. This letter was written shortly after the Mayapur festival, where Srila Prabhupada severely chastised his senior men for not challenging the disparaging remarks made about him by his godbrothers when we went on parikram to Sridhara Maharaja’s Math for prasadam. It’s very important to read this two-page letter in full.

     Excerpt from letter…

     “Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhar Maharaj is responsible for disobeying this order of guru maharaj, and he and two others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Gurumaharaj could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was ‘acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body’. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhar Maharaj and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikary with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times in a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.”

     Reply
115. Puranjana das says:

     11. April 2013 at 3:54 am

     We need to listen to Narottama Das Thakura? OK. And Srila Prabhupada says Visvanatha accepted Narottama as his guru, but they were not on the planet at the same time? SG has not even read the introduction to the Gita where this list of gurus is given. First of all, look at the list of acharyas before discussing further. Now SG is saying, Visvanatha is a deviated person? What is wrong with these SG people? ys pd

     Reply
116. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     11. April 2013 at 5:27 am

     “Step right up; become guru!” is simply Lord Sri Krishna’s trick to expose the rascals among us. The fact that these rascals are currently running ISKCON is only temporary. Soon they will be forced to give up their ill-gotten positions.

     As Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā (10.34), mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham: “I am all-devouring death.” The Lord is just like death to the atheists, for He takes away everything they accumulate in the material world.

     (http://causelessmercy.com/?P=SB4.24.5&TP=2323)

     Reply
117. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     11. April 2013 at 8:33 am

     Hare Krishna SG,

     recently some members of my family and several friends were abandoned by their guru after worshiping him for 20 and even 30 years. I’m interested to know how you would explain the following, as I’m needing a little help consoling them:

     Should they go back to using their karmi names, (after all they are no longer initiated devotees)?

     Have they wasted the best years of their lives?

     How do they get their money back? (A church cannot accept donations from members based on false pretense or deception)

     Has Prabhupada accepted their service?

     On that last point, if you say Prabhupada HAS accepted their service all along (which is exactly what our GBC told us when our guru ran away with the woman and the money) then you’re supporting Ritvik no? BUT, if you say “No Prabhupada cannot receive your service, this is a bogus idea”, then you’re saying they just wasted 20 or 30 years serving a fake, and are now RIGHT BACK AT THE POINT THEY STARTED,… Tom, Julie, John, Mel, etc, etc.

     Do you suggest they start over again and bow down to another ISKCON guru who they also have no idea what might be going on in his heart? (Oh by the way, some devotees from my country are onto their third and even forth guru, so they may need some convincing).

     I admire that you are willing to stand up for what YOU accept as right, but your system seems to have a pretty grim reality. Anyway I look forward to some words of enlightenment to brighten the very dark days these sincere devotees are going through after they took a gamble on guru and lost.

     Reply
118. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     11. April 2013 at 10:42 am

     Just-a-fruit-seller says How do they get their money back? (A church cannot accept donations from members based on false pretense or deception)

     Whenever one of ISKCON’s pretender gurus, who has been secretly falling down for years, is finally caught red handed, his “disciples” should file a class-action lawsuit against ISKCON for fraud. Unfortunately, lawsuits and bad publicity are the only language these rascal ISKCON leaders understand.

     Reply
119. Dr. Vincent Hunter says:

     12. April 2013 at 3:58 am

     Of course whenever you present to “KrishnaDas” and others of his ilk (like Rocana’s deluded living guru freaks) bill of damage sum these gentlemen are suddenly prevented for any reason, unreachable, out of office and address unknown. For weeks big, big words, when costs of their chaos program are put forward, the rascals keep silent, radio silence (The number you have dialed is not available).

     Reply
120. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     12. April 2013 at 6:42 am

     Gangadhara Dasa says: …in the West where defective religions are not tolerated like in India but crushed in the shredder into fine sized pieces.

     Very astute observation. Thank you very much for your valuable insight, Gangadhara Prabhu.

     Reply
121. Krishna das says:

     12. April 2013 at 9:27 am

     >>What we find is that the ill-manered people who attack us Prabhupadanugas who accept the Ritvik system are simply a bunch of idiots

     Mr Mahesh, Prabhupada has rejected this misnamed “Prabhupadanuga ritvik system” on may 28th by using the words “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”. Please think once again if you want to take back your above statement.

     >>attack us for worshipping Srila Prabhupada in his picture

     Can you give me any evidence of any statement of mine that attacks you for worshipping Prabhupada’s picture and his teachings? I know you guys are trained expertly to shovel such dirt on others so that your followers who blindly believe you start to consider whatever you say as truth. They don’t question because they think you are representing Prabhupada for them, and so asking you questions is a vaishnava aparadha. So you have achieved your purpose of becoming “sakshad dharitvena” for your followers without undergoing the GBC standard purifciation process.

     >> in fact, meanwhile all ISKCON’s rank and file don’t believe that Prabhupada appointed Jayatirtha, Kirtanananda, Bhagavan, Harikesa, etc., etc., to be the next acaryas

     Mataji, what we are discussing is whether Prabhupada wanted his disciples to become spiritual masters or no, not whether Prabhupada had done any appointment of any acharyas. And if Gaudiya matha says whatever you have quoted, then the point is still valid that Prabhupada has not made bogus gurus, he has made genuine vaishnava Gurus.

     I appreciate your confidence of knowing the right path and knowing that I am on the wrong path. However since you were not able to provide enough ample evidences, how do you expect me to blindly believe you? Your followers may be trained to blindly believe you. But I am not trained by my spiritual master to blindly believe someone, I am trained to enquire.

     >>Only difference, it happens in the West where defective religions are not tolerated like in India but crushed in the shredder into fine sized pieces

     Sorry Gadhadara prabhu, we know the history of the west, including the way Christianity progressed. “Thou shall not kill deviation” has still not seen the face of the shredder.

     >>Srila Prabhupada’s TEACHINGS ARE: July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order
     This is not the only teaching of Prabhupada, Mahesh prabhu. This is half chicken philosophy. In fact this teaching was meant for a situation when many people were waiting for initiations but Prabhupada was unable to travel. If any spiritual master faces this scenario in future, we can at that time apply what Prabhupada had done in that scenario. What is supposed to be done in general scenarios is addressed on may 28th by Prabhupada when questioned about initiations when he is no longer with us as “Granddisciple or disciple of my disciple”.

     >>ANTI Srila Prabhupada Diksa guru camp do have a Diksa guru then PROVE it that this person is PROMINENT ACARYA because ONLY PROMINENT ACARYA is to be FOLLOWED
     You got the point totally wrong Mr Mahesh. Prabhupada has said that we must pick up a prominent acharya and follow him, he has not said that we must take initiation only from that prominent acharya. Prove to me that Prabhupada has said so. And Prabhupada has used the word “promenent” before acharya meaning there are non-prominent acharyas also. Does that make sense? Some five hundred years down the line, it may happen that we say we are followers of Prabhupada, not mentioning which all ISKCON Gurus have come between the devotee five hundred years later and Prabhupada. He may take his spiritual master’s name and then Prabhupada’s name, that may be fine. But that doesn’t mean that no “non-prominent” acharyas exist. If it would be the case, Prabhupada would omit the word prominent and simply say “acharya”.

     >>Srila Prabhupada knew all this way before the May 28th conversation

     The confidence with which you accuse Amar Puri Prabhu makes me feel that you were present during the time makes me feel whether you were presnet in front of Prabhupada when all these things were going on, on may 28th, july 11th etc, or are you just making statements to make your followers believe you?

     Balaram prabhu, I clearly understand the letter. Prabhupada never wanted to make an acharya in the Gaudiya math, similar to the way the maths function in Udupi or Shringeri etc where there is one head Guru. Instead, he wanted a GBC to take care of the affairs, and self efflugent acharya would automatically be selected. That is what GBC has followed, they have not made one single acharya, but have setup a GBC.

     Fruitseller prabhu/mataji, just because some Gurus fell down, how are disciples expected to concoct new ways of initiation and disregard the instructions of their founder acharya who has said “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”?

     Hunter sir, because a damage is done, we can’t concoct new methods to recover from the damage or prevent further damage. That is the non-Krishna conscious perspective, if there is some damage, invent some new adjustments to prevent such damages. The Krishna conscious perspective is to have faith in Krishna and serve him and his sincere devotees and Krishna will take care of it.

     Reply
122. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     12. April 2013 at 11:11 am

     Hey Krishna das, you must be so busy with all those other replies that you missed reading my last post altogether! But don’t worry, somehow I thought you might not get around to answering me so I SAVED IT!

     Here it is:

     ”Dear Krishna das, you are obviously very intelligent and a good debater,… I even agreed with some of the points you’ve made from time to time. However, when you write; “In this way all these ritviks achieve their selfish motive of becoming an absolute controller” I experience you as dishonest,… and perhaps even a little desperate? How could you possibly know the MOTIVES of ALL THESE RITVIKS? Are you telling me you can see right into ALL of their hearts?? If not, then I must conclude you’re speaking a falsehood simply to bolster your position?
     Why would someone who is as absolutely convinced as you seem to be, need to stoop to this kind of behaviour? Come’on prabhu, you have taken it upon yourself to represent your own guru and to become the mouthpiece within this forum for all ISKCON gurudom. I am not a Ritvik, and I don’t have an attachment to their victory or defeat within this debate. But when you let slip like this I think it just strengthens the argument that some current ISKCON guru’s and followers are prone to stretch the truth or distort facts to fit ‘their’ own motives!”

     I do hope you get time to read it. You quote so much Vaisnava scripture that I figured that you must be a personalist? I have simply addressed something YOU wrote, so I hope you can find the time to answer my concerns as it was YOU who raised them with YOUR writings.

     PS: I am not a mataji,…. and definitely not a prabhu.

     Reply
123. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     12. April 2013 at 3:38 pm

     Krishna das says: Prabhupada has rejected this misnamed “Prabhupadanuga ritvik system” on may 28th by using the words “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”.

     Why keep repeating the same old tired argument which was thoroughly defeated by Hansadutta Prabhu almost 20 years ago? (See: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34733#comment-19158)

     What’s the point of continuing this discussion?

     Reply
124. Puranjana das says:

     12. April 2013 at 4:03 pm

     Notice that Krishna das never identifies who his current living guru is, or even if there is any? Anywhere? If there is no one else to worship other than Srila Prabhupada that he ever mentions, and there apparently is no one else, since he never tells us who that is, then he arguing about no one and nothing. We are worshiping Srila Prabhupada, but he has no alternate process? He just says our idea is bad, but he has no process to replace what we are doing? There is no name for his guru, no books for his guru, no temples for his guru, no devotees for his guru, no worship of his guru, no programs of his guru, he is arguing about — no one and nothing? If there is no “other guru” then what we are doing is — the only thing left standing? And Srila Prabhupada also says that if one does not name their guru specifically, then this is all mayavada. So the only thing Krishna das has done so far is to identify that — he is a mayavada, since he never names the guru he is promoting at the moment? Yes, Krishna is taking care of it, Krishna das has no guru, no temple, no devotees, no program, no name for his guru, he has nothing at all, or else he would tell us what that is a long time ago, so he has exposed himself as a mayavada. He is promoting, nothingness. ys pd

     Reply
125. SG says:

     12. April 2013 at 5:49 pm

     Mahesh Raja says:
     10. April 2013 at 9:08 pm

     Mahesh:
     “Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement
     with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method
     of one acarya may be different than that of another, but the ultimate goal
     is never neglected.”
     (Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)

     “An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform
     to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness
     may be spread.”
     (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)

     Note: The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them
     Vaisnavas.” “Srimad Viraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of
     the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or
     conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated
     according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there
     to make them Vaisnavas.”
     (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)

     Note: Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and
     admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
     761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement?
     Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
     Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break)
     …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge,
     and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

     The 1st and 2nd initiations are FORMALITIES when Srila Prabhupada introduced
     Ritvik System this does not mean that anything changed in terms of giving Diksa
     as per SB 10.2.18 where Krsna is TRANSFERED in a pure devotees heart :

     Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana
     means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa –
     manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana
     is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna.
     Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have…
     We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community,
     servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many.
     “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from
     this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART
     from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow
     (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP
     (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions
     of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya.
     All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees
     take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take
     shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material
     attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the
     transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi,
     the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the
     eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental
     mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then
     there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is
     UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap. This is why In Guru Puja
     to Srila Prabhupada we sing Janme janme prabhu sei:

     760805BG.PAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are
     singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**.
     ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada is WITH US TO GUIDE US through difficult journey of transmigration
     cycle to attaining Back to Godhead IF we follow him. Bilvamangal Thakura’s Spiritual master
     came thru a prostitute to deliver him so Srila Prabhupada is also SO POWERFUL to help us:

     SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
     IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one
     should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was
     transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of
     Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by
     the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance
     of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT
     PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF
     GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD
     WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.

     Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
     Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE
     MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING
     BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under
     the control of the devotee’s love.

     SG — Are all these quotes of yours suppose to be sastra, sadhu,
     guru references to your POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION ? Then you
     should point out where in those quotes of yours given above does
     it state that POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION IS AN AUTHORISED FORM
     OF INITIATION AND BY SUCH AN INITIATION THE INITIATED BECOMES THE
     DISCIPLE OF THAT DEARLY DEPARTED GURU.

     MR — SG looks like he has a CONDITIONED SOUL pet Baboon he wants
     to worship instead of Srila Prabhupada the FACTUAL giver of Diksa
     in ISKCON. He is upset that Srila Prabhupada gives Diksa instead
     of his pet Baboon

     SG — What is this pet baboon, pet baboon thing. Is your brain
     development still in kindergarden level ?

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
126. mark says:

     12. April 2013 at 5:58 pm

     in the may 28th conversation, Srila Prabhupada told his Senior men he would be choosing some as “ritvik acaryas” he then went on to give a description of what that position would encompass.

     The use of the word Grand-disciple is, as a general rule, used to refer to the generations of a DIKSA LINE.

     Yet it was implicitly and explicitly stated that those who Srila Prabhupada was naming as “Ritvik acarya” were going to “give the initiation” (1st and 2nd formal initiations) ON THE BEHALF of the founder-acarya Srila Prabhupada, especially after he was “no longer with us.” (post disappearance).

     So there is an apparent contradiction since “grand-disciple” was being used to indicate a relationship between the “person who gives the initiation” and the newly initiated disciple.

     It is important to note that the person conducting the initiation would generally be the temple president, or some senior brahmana who the TP would delegate the authority to. It would generally NOT be the Ritvik Acarya.

     Therefore the use of “grand-disciple” could only be understood in the context of a Siksa relationship between the local devotee “giving the initiation” and the student. Srila Prabhupada rightly noted that the person “giving the initiation” would be considered a “guru” to the new student. This obviously meant “instructor guru”, or a devotee that doesn’t need to be an advanced liberated person but can still teach.

     Furthermore, even if someone wanted to construe that the new initiate was to become a grand-disciple of the ritvik acarya according to the May 28th conversation, they would have to admit defeat for 2 reasons.

     1. This was a conversation with a handful of disciples where Srila Prabhupada was telling what he planned to do in the future that many other disciples who were not present would need to be informed of.

     2. A month later when Srila Prabhupada finally gave a directive sent to ALL DISCIPLES, he never created any ritvik acaryas. In the July 9th directive, he specifically created “ritviks”. He said that they were “representatives of the acarya”. “The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative.”

     And the title and duties of this office were referred to by Srila Prabhupada in subsequent communications.

     “I have selected you among eleven men as “rittvik” or representative of the acharya, to give initiations, both first and second initiation, on my behalf.” (July 10th 1977)

     “A letter has been sent to all the Temple Presidents and GBC which you should be receiving soon describing the process for initiation to be followed in the future. Srila Prabhupada has appointed thus far eleven representitives who will initiate new devotees on His behalf.” (July 11th 1977)

     “Make your own field and continue to be Ritvik and act on my behalf.” – (July 31, 1977)

     So there you have it. No “Ritvik acaryas” NO Diksa Granddisciples within Iskcon. Just brahmanas (priests) acting as representatives of the Founder-Acarya of the society. Siksa gurus at their best. Sorry wannabees. Game over. Make your own asrama if you can.

     Reply
127. Bhakta Michael says:

     12. April 2013 at 6:04 pm

     Right, “KrishnaDas” now repeats all those points that were already answered in previous comments and tries to fool everybody of presenting new arguments because, “things were not clear yet”. Thus this is called spamming. Eventually nobody will answer what was already answered and “KrishnaDas” will propagate that his comments were not answered because we are defeated.

     Already this is happening. Besides, there are inconsistencies, “KrishnaDas” doesnt seem to be a disciple but rather an ISKCON guru or GBC. KrishnaDas’ posts are not meant to deepen readers’ understanding but to make this blog look foolish. He also doesn’t want to know anything.

     Unless “KrishnaDas” reveals his real identity no more of his comments will be posted. Thank you for your understanding.

     Reply
128. SG says:

     12. April 2013 at 6:26 pm

     Gangadhara Dasa says:
     10. April 2013 at 9:11 pm

     GD — People same caliber like “SG” constantly nagging (crying fit) that there
     has to be a living guru sitting on the throne although Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
     Maharaja would not appoint anyone.

     SG — Please, can you point to me where i have constantly nagged (cry fit, you say)
     that there has to be a living guru on the throne even though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
     Saraswati Maharaj would not appoint one.

     GD — These are the “teachings” of SG, jubilantly repeat Gaudiya-matha
     January 2, 1937 weirdo beardo fiasco.

     SG — What exactly are SG “teaching” ?

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
129. Amar Puri says:

     12. April 2013 at 7:46 pm

     SG. writes ; ” SG — Are all these quotes of yours suppose to be sastra, sadhu,
     guru references to your POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION ? Then you
     should point out where in those quotes of yours given above does
     it state that POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION IS AN AUTHORISED FORM
     OF INITIATION AND BY SUCH AN INITIATION THE INITIATED BECOMES THE
     DISCIPLE OF THAT DEARLY DEPARTED GURU. ”

     SG. Prabhu, you are an intelligent person as it seems. However it is clear that you do not believe in the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. DO YOU ?

     IS IT TRUE, SG prabhu you do not believe in the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada ? Please answer this question in YES or NO.

     By the way, please do not concoct any mundane idea about the pre / or post SAMADHI of the Spiritual Master and His Initiating Instructions because the Spiritual Master is always in SAMADHI and His Instructions are always valid. Doing so is totally mundane and misleading on account of the four defects applicable to the Conditioned Souls, Sadharan Jivas like you,I and Others. The Spiritual Master is not an ordinary man. If you concoct pre or post Samadhi ideas and introduce it in the public, you are misleading gravely not only to yourself but to others also. So please answer the question I ask you.

     Your refutation to the quotes from the Sastras is totally mundane and therefore, it does not stand up except indicating your intend that you reject the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada. That is why I ask you the question in order to confirm my inference.

     Hope it meets you well, SG, Prabhu.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Hari BOL.

     Reply
130. mark says:

     12. April 2013 at 8:40 pm

     There are many fools who regurgitate the following slogans which were concocted by the Zoned out Acaryas and their GBC (Gangster Boy Cheerleaders) of Iskcon, including their BBT (Butlers of Better Truth).

     Referring to the Ritvik initiation system, they say there is no such thing as “post samadhi initiation” or “posthumous Diksa”. that it is asiddhanta and not part of the Gaudiya Tradition.

     So I am surprised that Jayadwaita and his BBT book mangling crew have yet to edit Jagannatha das Babaji’s name out from the list of disciplic succession in the “new improved” Bhagavad Gita. After all, according to the parampara list as written by Srila Prabhupada in CC Adi Lila chapter 1, “Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura accepted Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī”, even though Visvanatha was “post samadhi” by a hundred years.

     I hate to give our misguided so-called editors any ideas, but that edited Gita is ruined already, so Jay might as well just continue to show the world what he really thinks about the ideas of the one he claims to be a disciple of.

     THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION
     Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (Bhagavad-gīta, 4.2) This Bhagavad-gītā As It Is is received through this disciplic succession:
     1) Kṛṣṇa, 2) Brahmā, 3) Nārada; 4) Vyāsa, 5) Madhva, 6) Padmanābha, 7) Nṛhari, 8) Mādhava, 9) Akṣobhya, 10) Jayatīrtha, 11) Jñānasindhu, 12) Dayānidhi, 13) Vidyānidhi, 14) Rājendra, 15) Jayadharma, 16) Puruṣottama, 17) Brahmaṇyatīrtha, 18) Vyāsatīrtha, 19) Lakṣmīpati, 20) Mādhavendra Purī, 21) Īśvara Purī, (Nityānanda, Advaita), 22) Lord Caitanya, 23) Rūpa (Svarūpa, Sanātana), 24) Raghunātha, Jīva, 25) Kṛṣṇadāsa, 26) Narottama, 27) Viśvanātha, 28) (Baladeva) Jagannātha, 29) Bhaktivinode, 30) Gaurakiśora, 31) Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, 32) His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda.
     (Bhagavad Gita INTRO)

     Of course J.Swa will need to attack the Bhagavatam next…

     SB 3.13.8 : PURPORT :
     Brahmā is the direct recipient of Vedic knowledge from the Personality of Godhead, and anyone discharging his entrusted duties in disciplic succession from Brahmā is sure to gain fame in this life and salvation in the next. The disciplic succession from Brahmā is called the Brahma-sampradāya, and it descends as follows: Brahmā, Nārada, Vyāsa, Madhva Muni (Pūrṇaprajña), Padmanābha, Nṛhari, Mādhava, Akṣobhya, Jayatīrtha, Jñānasindhu, Dayānidhi, Vidyānidhi, Rājendra, Jayadharma, Puruṣottama, Brahmaṇyatīrtha, Vyāsatīrtha, Lakṣmīpati, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Svarūpa Dāmodara and Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī and others, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, Kṛṣṇadāsa Gosvāmī, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī, Śrīmad Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

     Might as well edit a few taped lectures while he is at it…

     “One who has accepted ācārya, he knows things as they are.” Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. So we are receiving knowledge through the ācāryas. Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, Arjuna spoke to Vyāsadeva. Arjuna actually did not speak to Vyāsadeva, but Vyāsadeva heard it, Kṛṣṇa speaking, and he noted down in his book Mahābhārata. This Bhagavad-gītā is found in Mahābhārata. So we accept the authorities of Vyāsa. And from Vyāsa, Madhvācārya; from Madhvācārya, so many disciplic succession, up to Mādhavendra Purī. Then Mādhavendra Purī to Īśvara Purī; from Īśvara Purī to Lord Caitanyadeva; from Lord Caitanyadeva to six Gosvāmīs; from six Gosvāmīs to Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja; from him, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya; from him, Viśvanātha Cakravartī; from him, Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī; then Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī; Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura; my spiritual master. The same thing, we are preaching. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is nothing new. It is coming down from the original speaker, Kṛṣṇa, by disciplic succession.
     (Lectures : Bhagavad-gita 2.13 — Pittsburgh, September 8, 1972)

     That is guru. Means one who has seen the truth. How he has seen the truth? Through the paramparā system. Kṛṣṇa said this, and then Brahmā said the same thing, then Nārada said the same thing, Vyāsadeva said the same thing, and then disciplic succession, Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī, Īśvara Purī, Lord Caitanya, Ṣaḍ-gosvāmī, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. In this way. Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, Gaura Kiśora dāsa Bābājī, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. Then we are speaking. The same thing.
     (Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.4.1 — Los Angeles, June 24, 1972)

     J. and cohort Dravida das already edited the Parampara list in CC Adi 1, but failed to properly address the false post samadhi Diksa that Jagannatha received when Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti accepted him as servitor. Instead he our Mangler in Chief focused on editing Srila Prabhupada’s bogus idea that Bhaktivinode initiated Srila Gaurakishor das babaji.

     “The direct disciple of Śrīla Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī was Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, who accepted Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī as his servitor. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura accepted Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, who initiated Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, who in turn initiated Śrīla Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī, the spiritual master of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, the divine master of our humble self.”
     (Original CC Adi Chapter 1)

     “The direct disciple of Śrīla Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī was Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, who accepted Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī as his servitor. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura accepted Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī, the spiritual master of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, who in turn accepted Śrīla Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī, the spiritual master of Oṁ Viṣṇupāda Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja, the divine master of our humble self.”
     (Changed CC Adi Chapter 1)

     I know, I know, so many changes to make, so little time. Perhaps some one of J. Swa’s divine stature could make an appeal to Kala, the presiding Deity of time, in the form of a request to slow things down a bit so His Magnificence will be able to properly wield his editorial scalpel and undo all the errors Srila Prabhupada left us with and save the entire Jagat from being so grossly misinformed.

     Reply
131. Mahesh Raja says:

     12. April 2013 at 10:59 pm

     Bhakta Michael:
     Right, “KrishnaDas” now repeats all those points that were already answered in previous comments and tries to fool everybody of presenting new arguments because, “things were not clear yet”. Thus this is called spamming. Eventually nobody will answer what was already answered and “KrishnaDas” will propagate that his comments were not answered because we are defeated.

     Already this is happening. Besides, there are inconsistencies, “KrishnaDas” doesnt seem to be a disciple but rather an ISKCON guru or GBC. KrishnaDas’ posts are not meant to deepen readers’ understanding but to make this blog look foolish. He also doesn’t want to know anything.

     Unless “KrishnaDas” reveals his real identity no more of his comments will be posted. Thank you for your understanding.

     Mahesh: Thank-you very much! I AGREE COMPLETELY. He is not worth the bother. The guy is CROOK – simple as that.

     SG – you have ENVY towards Srila Prabhupada as THE CURRENT DIKSA GURU and his set-up of the Ritvik System this is WHY you want Srila Prabhupada REPLACED with your CONDITIONED SOULS simple as that. ANYBODY can see thru you folks. You call this respect?
     What Kintergarden? You SIR, have NO MANNERS. Those who want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT Diksa Guru and discard his Ritvik System are NOT Prabhupadanugas. They have ULTERIOR MOTIVES.

     Either they OBEY Srila Prabhupada OR they don’t:

     Srila Prabhupada’s TEACHINGS ARE: July 9th 1977 Ritvik Order:There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     Adi 12.10 The Expansions of Advaita Acarya and Gadadhara Pandita
     The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.
     PURPORT
     Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.

     Reply
132. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. April 2013 at 12:01 am

     PHALGUN KRISHNA PANCAMI By His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [Five prayers glorifying special characteristics of Srila 108 Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakura. Presented on the commemoration of his appearance, by His Divine Grace, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, at Radha Damodara temple, Vrindavana, India in 1961].

     Third Vasistya

     23. If everyone just initiates then there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure.

     Note: looking from the above the BOGUS GBC is doing EXACTLY what Srila Prabhupada’s God brothers did. They want to initiate disciples of their OWN which means “As long as it goes on, there will be only failure.”

     24. Now even, my God brothers, you return here to the order of our master, and together we engage in his puja.
     25. But simply a festival of flowers and fruits does not constitute worship. The one who serves the message of the guru really worships him.
     26. The service of the message is the real meaning of the Vedas. Don’t be proud, brothers, Come back to this.

     FOLLOW the PROMINENT ACARYA means to ABIDE by his INSTRUCTIONS of July 9th 1977 Ritvik ORDER from Srila Prabhupada:

     Adi 12.10 The Expansions of Advaita Acarya and Gadadhara Pandita
     The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.
     PURPORT
     Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.

     Reply
133. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. April 2013 at 12:20 am

     There is ONLY ONE INITATOR : Srila Prabhupada:

     75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
     The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

     “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

     KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
     The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.

     Reply
134. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. April 2013 at 1:11 am

     69-08-21. Letter: Swami B. S. Bhagavata Maharaja
     I have also read specifically your articles on the matter of acaryas, wherein on the 14th Paragraph I see the acharya shall be entitled to nominate in writing his successive acharya. But we do not find any record where our Srila Prabhupada nominated any acharya after Him. Different persons have interpreted on this point, and every one of our Godbrothers are acting as acharya, so this is a controversial point which I do not wish to enter into while we are proposing for cooperation.

     Srila Prabhupada never appointed acaryas – so this being the case ONE can have MANY OFFICIATING (Ritvik – Representative of Acarya Srila Prabhupada) Acaryas in ISKCON but the PROMINENT Acarya is the ONE INITIATOR on WHOSE BEHALF the MANY MANY MANY OFFFICIATING ACARYAS CAN SERVE.

     Reply
135. Puranjana das says:

     13. April 2013 at 1:48 am

     Krishna das is apparently an anonymous name, probably not the real name of the author. And he is advocating for us to worship an anonymous guru, who does not exist apparently. In sum, he wants us to accept his anonymous authority — to promote the worship of an anonymous person. This is very childish, to say the very least. ys pd

     Reply
136. Balaram das says:

     13. April 2013 at 2:35 am

     K das says…

     “Instead, he wanted a GBC to take care of the affairs, and self efflugent acharya would automatically be selected. That is what GBC has followed, they have not made one single acharya, but have setup a GBC.”

     No, they have not made one single acharya, they have ‘voted in’ 100 or so “self effulgent” acharyas with a casualty rate of about 50%. Also most of the those had to be dragged to the alter of exposure and ‘de-frocked’, sometimes by their own followers, instead of admitting their fraud.

     WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
     by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
     FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
     FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
     FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
     FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
     FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
     FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.

     Srila Prabhupada “……Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.”

     Reply
137. Amar Puri says:

     13. April 2013 at 2:52 am

     Thanks for writing your comments, Bhakta Mark, affirming as a back up which reads ;

     ” So I am surprised that Jayadwaita and his BBT book mangling crew have yet to edit Jagannatha das Babaji’s name out from the list of disciplic succession in the “new improved” Bhagavad Gita. After all, according to the parampara list as written by Srila Prabhupada in CC Adi Lila chapter 1, “Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura accepted Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī”, even though Visvanatha was “post samadhi” by a hundred years. ”

     The above is in confirmation of my comments in the post which reads as follows :

     ” By the way, please do not concoct any mundane idea about the pre / or post SAMADHI of the Spiritual Master and His Initiating Instructions because the Spiritual Master is always in SAMADHI and His Instructions are always valid. Doing so is totally mundane and misleading on account of the four defects applicable to the Conditioned Souls, Sadharan Jivas like you,I and Others. The Spiritual Master is not an ordinary man. If you concoct pre or post Samadhi ideas and introduce it in the public, you are misleading gravely not only to yourself but to others also. So please answer the question I ask you.”

     Now let us hear from SG. Prabhu, his answer to my question whether or not if he believes in Srila Prabhupada’s Initiating Instructions as it is.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Hari BOL.

     Reply
138. Bhakta Ralph says:

     13. April 2013 at 7:51 am

     Krishna Das: “Sorry Gadhadara prabhu, we know the history of the west, including the way Christianity progressed.”

     Common misunderstanding taught by ISKCON’s academic Vaishnava scholars, SAC:
     Christianity is bogus because Christians kill animals. However, killing of animals is within the category of sinful activity.

     That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that whatever you eat, bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat, [Bg. 3.13]. Anyone is cooking something, meat or vegetables, for his own eating, he is eating only sin.
     (July 11, 1976, New York)

     – From sastra we understand that sin (agham—grievous sins; papah—sinners) is an atonable wrongdoing/mischief.

     “My dear sir, Sukadeva Gosvami, I can understand that one should take care of his sinful reaction and atone for it as prescribed in the sastras.
     (San Francisco, September 12, 1968)

     Whereas falsely posing as God’s direct representative is unatonable aparadha. In other words, you have to accept full force punishment.

     To mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.
     These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20).
     (Iso mantra 12)

     Still, ISKCONites believe because of all this animal killing Christianity is inferior and ISKCON is superior, never mind having produced all these false gurus.
     Fatalistic erroneous belief! Falsely posing as God’s direct representative is demoniac, sacrilege, without chance of atonement. In sum, present deviant Vaishnava institutions are below Christian level.

     Not only that, ISKCON’s “academic vedic scholars”, SAC, continue further and derive – because of all this meat-eating, Christianity is total humbug.

     For them to arrive at this conclusion is important because otherwise if they consider Lord Jesus as bona fide, they cannot explain why Jesus Christ can still initiate and Prabhupada is unable.

     Of course Prabhupada never said Lord Jesus Christ is humbug.

     Prabhupada: Buddha is saktyavesa-avatara. We accept Lord Jesus Christ also, saktyavesa-avatara; Mohammed, saktyavesa-avatara.
     (June 4, 1974, Geneva)

     Present ISKCON leaders are in quite precarious position and obviously like in case of “KrishnaDas” cannot properly teach their disciples.

     A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
     NOI 5, purport

     Reply
139. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. April 2013 at 11:54 am

     What Srila Prabhupada presented to us the philosophy is LIVE – just to share a few realizations:

     Those that gave poison to Srila Prabhupada they will get NATURAL bodies so they can have poison to give others. This means they will become SNAKES who have NATURAL bodies to give poison. Srila Prabhupada says that consciousness created by the living entity takes him to the next body – so they are CREATING their OWN bodies by their consciousness.

     1) Suhotra swami (ex bogus gbc) ANTI – Ritvik he was in MAYAPURA and of all the places he left his body in a LAVATORY. In a LAVATORY what is his consciousness? Even ORDINARY Karmis die better places.

     2) Gopipranadahana Sastric Advisory Committe of the bogus GBC ANTI – Ritvik he was living in Vrndavana BUT he was found in LAVATORY. Just see! So what is value of his consciousness?

     These folks they HIDE these things from us – but we get to know them.

     3) Tamal Krishna – he was involved in accident – they covered up his head. This means he MUST have gone thru the windscreen HEAD FIRST . Just see HOW Krsna arranges these ANTI Ritvik people to go.
     His body – Rigor Mortis had set in – so they could not fold it he was brought in coffin. They have got SAMADHI(salt pickle grave). So what is value? Conditioned souls body worship – Bhagavad Gita says mode of Ignorance people worship the dead and ghosts.

     4) Anti Ritvik Narayana Maharaja – they do NOT show us HOW he passed away at THE LAST STAGE – strange WHY they did not have THAT PARTICULAR video scene.

     Should be VERY interesting to see HOW the rest of ANTI Ritvik folks go . Jayapataka he was in COMA but he came out MAYBE this was a 2nd chance given to him because of PAST service?

     Regards coma Srila Prabhupada says:

     COMA IS NOT GOOD. THAT IS THE SIGN OF SINFUL LIFE. HE MUST BE CONSCIOUS. THAT IS GOOD.

     SB 4.28.12 P Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life
     There are many parts of the body–the senses, the limbs, the skin, the muscles, blood, marrow, etc.–and all these are considered here figuratively as sons, grandsons, citizens and dependents. WHEN THE BODY IS ATTACKED BY THE VISNU-JVARA, THE FIERY CONDITION BECOMES SO ACUTE THAT SOMETIMES ONE REMAINS IN A COMA. THIS MEANS THAT THE BODY IS IN SUCH SEVERE PAIN THAT ONE BECOMES UNCONSCIOUS AND CANNOT FEEL THE MISERIES TAKING PLACE WITHIN THE BODY. INDEED, THE LIVING ENTITY BECOMES SO HELPLESS AT THE TIME OF DEATH THAT, ALTHOUGH UNWILLING, HE IS FORCED TO GIVE UP THE BODY AND ENTER ANOTHER.

     SB 4.29.71 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
     Foolish people deny the existence of the soul, but it is a fact that when we sleep we forget the identity of the material body and when we awake we forget the identity of the subtle body. In other words, while sleeping we forget the activities of the gross body, and when active in the gross body we forget the activities of sleeping. Actually both states–sleeping and waking–are creations of the illusory energy. The living entity actually has no connection with either the activities of sleep or the activities of the so-called wakened state. When a person is in deep sleep or when he has fainted, he forgets his gross body. Similarly, under chloroform or some other anesthetic, the living entity forgets his gross body and does not feel pain or pleasure during a surgical operation. Similarly, when a man is suddenly shocked by some great loss, he forgets his identification with the gross body. AT THE TIME OF DEATH, WHEN THE TEMPERATURE OF THE BODY RISES TO 107 DEGREES, THE LIVING ENTITY FALLS INTO A COMA AND IS UNABLE TO IDENTIFY HIS GROSS BODY. IN SUCH CASES, THE LIFE AIR THAT MOVES WITHIN THE BODY IS CHOKED UP, AND THE LIVING ENTITY FORGETS HIS IDENTIFICATION WITH THE GROSS BODY.

     SB 4.29.76-77 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
     A LIVING ENTITY TOO MUCH ABSORBED IN MATERIAL ACTIVITY BECOMES VERY MUCH ATTRACTED TO THE MATERIAL BODY. EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH, HE THINKS OF HIS PRESENT BODY AND THE RELATIVES CONNECTED TO IT. THUS HE REMAINS FULLY ABSORBED IN THE BODILY CONCEPTION OF LIFE, SO MUCH SO THAT EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH HE ABHORS LEAVING HIS PRESENT BODY. SOMETIMES IT IS FOUND THAT A PERSON ON THE VERGE OF DEATH REMAINS IN A COMA FOR MANY DAYS BEFORE GIVING UP THE BODY. This is common among so-called leaders and politicians who think that without their presence the entire country and all society will be in chaos. This is called maya. Political leaders do not like to leave their political posts, and they either have to be shot by an enemy or obliged to leave by the arrival of death. By superior arrangement a living entity is offered another body, but because of his attraction to the present body, he does not like to transfer himself to another body. Thus he is forced to accept another body by the laws of nature.
     Material nature is very strong, and the material modes force one to accept another body. This force is visible when the living entity transmigrates from a superior body to an inferior one. ONE WHO ACTS LIKE A DOG OR HOG IN THE PRESENT BODY WILL CERTAINLY BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG IN THE NEXT LIFE. A PERSON MAY BE ENJOYING THE BODY OF A PRIME MINISTER OR A PRESIDENT, BUT WHEN HE UNDERSTANDS THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG, HE CHOOSES NOT TO LEAVE THE PRESENT BODY. THEREFORE HE LIES IN A COMA MANY DAYS BEFORE DEATH. This has been experienced by many politicians at the time of death. The conclusion is that the next body is already determined by superior control. The living entity immediately gives up the present body and enters another. Sometimes in the present body the living entity feels that many of his desires and imaginations are not fulfilled. Those who are overly attracted to their life situation are forced to remain in a ghostly body and are not allowed to accept another gross body. Even in the body of a ghost, they create disturbances for neighbors and relatives. The mind is the prime cause of such a situation. According to one’s mind, different types of bodies are generated, and one is forced to accept them.

     TLK Vs 41 Taking Shelter of Krsna, the Supreme Controller
     Presently we are so dull and foolish that we do not know what is bhayam and tivram. The word tivram means “very terrible,” and bhayam means “very fearsome.” We are entangled by a very terrible fear, but we have become so dull due to the spell of maya that we do not care. AT THE TIME OF DEATH THERE ARE MANY TROUBLES, AND WE BECOME VERY FEARFUL. SOMETIMES, WHEN A PERSON IS DYING, HE FALLS INTO A COMA AND LIES UNCONSCIOUS. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT KIND OF FEARFUL TEST THIS PERSON IS UNDERGOING. HE MAY BE DREAMING SO MANY THINGS, OR HE MAY BE CRYING. HE CANNOT EXPRESS WHAT IS GOING ON. THOSE WHO ARE VERY SINFUL ESPECIALLY DIE IN THAT WAY. After death, one has to enter into the womb of another mother. That is also a very fearful stage. One becomes packed in a bag, and this bag is filled with stool and urine, and one has to remain packed in this airtight bag for nine months.

     740621BG.GER Lectures
     So nobody wants to leave this body, but the distress is so strong that one is forced to leave this body. That is called death. In the Bhagavad-gita you will find that mrtyuh sarva-haras ca aham. Krsna says that “I am death.” And what is the meaning of death? Death means “I take everything from him. Finished. I take his body, I take his association, I take his country, I take his society, I take his bank balance, and everything finished.” Sarva-harah. Sarva means everything. Everyone is trying to accumulated big bank balance and big house, big family, big motorcar… But with the death, everything is finished. So that is great distress. SOMETIMES ONE CRIES. YOU WILL FIND AT THE TIME OF DEATH, IN COMA, HIS EYE DROPS ARE COMING OUT. HE IS THINKING, “I MADE SO MANY THINGS SO NICELY TO LIVE COMFORTABLY, AND NOW I AM LOSING EVERYTHING.” GREAT DISTRESS.

     751031BG.NAI Lectures
     Indian man (2): But what if they die in coma? What if they die in deep unconsciousness?
     Prabhupada: That is not very good. COMA IS NOT GOOD. THAT IS THE SIGN OF SINFUL LIFE. HE MUST BE CONSCIOUS. THAT IS GOOD.

     760915SB.VRN Lectures
     So this is the movement how to make an adhira dhira. Everyone is adhira. Who is not afraid of death? Who is not afraid of…? Of course, they are too much agnostic, they forget. But there is suffering. We can see how one suffering at the time of death. There are some men dying… NOWADAYS IT HAS BECOME A VERY COMMON… COMA. ONE IS LYING IN THE BED FOR WEEKS, TWO WEEKS, CRYING. THE LIFE IS NOT GOING. THOSE WHO ARE VERY, VERY SINFUL. SO THERE IS GREAT PAIN AT THE TIME OF DEATH.

     741209SB.BOM Lectures
     So bhayam tivram. We have become so much dull or foolish that we do not know what is bhayam tivram. Tivram means very fierce, and bhayam, fierce fearfulness, very strong. And we are entangled in this very strong fearfulness, but we have become so dull by the spell of maya that we don’t care for it. Just imagine. At the time of death there are so many troubles, very fierceful. SOMETIMES A PERSON IS DYING, HE IS ATTACKED WITH COMA, AND HE IS LYING UNCONSCIOUS. BIG, BIG POLITICIANS, “MR. SUCH AND SUCH,” PRIME MINISTER, AND THIS AND THAT, BUT HE IS LYING UNCONSCIOUS IN COMA FOR SEVEN DAYS. AND WE DO NOT KNOW, BUT HE IS GOING VERY FIERCEFUL TEST. HE IS DREAMING SO MANY THINGS THAT SOMETIMES HE IS CRYING. HE CANNOT EXPRESS. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO ARE VERY SINFUL, THEY DIE IN THAT WAY. So this is not finished. Then, after death, you have to enter in the womb of the mother. That is another fierceful stage. You become packed up in a bag, and the bag is filled up or surrounded by stool, urine, worms. And you have to remain there, airtight packed, for ten months.

     761023SB.VRN Lectures
     Rebirth, that is very painful. But because we are mudhas, we have forgotten what is the painful condition is rebirth. We do not remember it. We do not remember. We had to pass through. We can simply imagine how it is painful to remain in the womb of the mother, packed up in an airtight bag and hands and legs you cannot move even. So this is the tribulations of taking birth. And similarly the tribulations of death. SOMETIMES ONE REMAINS IN COMA FOR MONTHS AND HE SUFFERS SO MUCH. SOMETIMES HE CRIES. ACTUALLY TEARS COME OUT. WE CANNOT SEE, BUT WITHIN THE BODY OF THE DYING MAN IS SO MUCH PAINFUL. This is called janma-mrtyu. And old man’s, there are difficulties.
     710218LE.GOR Lectures
     And similarly, miserable condition of death. WHEN ONE IS LYING IN COMA, SO MANY SUFFERINGS IS GOING ON, SO MANY DREAMING, THE YAMADUTA IS COMING. SOMETIMES THE MAN ON THE DEATHBED CRIES, HE’S SO MUCH SUFFERING. But there is no remedy. Everyone is helpless. So that is the miserable condition of death

     SCHOP.HAY Arthur Schopenhauer Philosophy
     Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante: we get next life according to the desire at the point of death. SO GENERALLY, WHEN DEATH TAKES PLACE, ONE SOMETIMES REMAINS IN COMA, ALL THE BODILY FUNCTIONS BECOMES DEFUNCT, HE DREAMS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND SO ON, SO ON. SO HE CANNOT DREAM OR THINK INDEPENDENTLY.

     740407mw.bom Conversations
     Prabhupada: This example is given. Suppose we are walking. This step, when I assure that “This is all right, it is not, it will not go down,” then I take up this. Then again this. This example is given. Similarly, change of body like that. As soon as it is settled up what kind of body he is going to accept or which is being offered to him, daiva-netrena, by higher authority, then this man leaves this body and again enters in the womb of the body which he is destined to get. This is the process of death.
     Yadubara: Is that immediate, Srila Prabhupada?
     Prabhupada: Immediate. Just like immediate I am walking. When it is fixed up, then I take up. Then when it is fixed up, then I take up, like this. Immediately.
     Yasomatinandana: What about hell? How does the jiva soul go to hell?
     Prabhupada: Yes. They go. Those who are going to HELL, THAT IS FIXED UP VERY QUICKLY. IT DOESN’T TAKE MUCH TIME. HELL MEANS HE IS GETTING THE NEXT BODY, HELLISH BODY. THAT’S ALL. SUPPOSE HE IS GOING TO GET THE HELLISH BODY TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL, SO IN THAT WAY HE ENTERS THE WORM, MOTHER WORM, TO GET THE BODY AND ENJOY THE HELL. THAT’S ALL.
     Satsvarupa: Don’t they sometimes have to go to Yamaraja first for practice?
     Prabhupada: Yes. That is daiva-netrena. THESE THINGS ARE FINISHED VERY QUICKLY. AND IF IT TAKES LITTLE TIME, THEN THIS MAN WHO IS DYING, HE REMAINS IN COMA AND DOES NOT DIE. BECAUSE THE JUDGEMENT IS GOING ON, THE DECISION WAITING, COMA. YOU HAVE SEEN SOMETIMES A MAN IS IN COMA FOR SEVEN DAYS, EIGHT DAYS? YES. THAT MEANS HIS JUDGEMENT IS GOING ON, THAT… SUCH KIND OF DEATH MEANS VERY SINFUL DEATH. NOT YET SETTLED UP, VERY COMPLICATED CASE. THEREFORE IT TAKES TIME.
     Yadubara: What about persons who die in their sleep? Is that a sinful death?
     Prabhupada: Yes. Dream or awakened, everything is dream, gross dream and subtle dream. That’s all. This is also dream. What do you mean by dream? Dream means existent for a little period. That’s all. So night dream is for two hours and this dream is for twenty-four hours.
     Yasomatinandana: So in other words when it says that one goes to hell, any lower species is also like hell. If one is going to assume a dog’s body, then does he go to hell before he assumes a dog’s body?
     Prabhupada: THERE IS STATEMENT LIKE THAT, THAT ONE IS PUT INTO THE HELLISH CONDITION FOR PRACTICING LITTLE, AND THEN HE IS PUT INTO THE WOMB OF SUCH MOTHER.
     Yasomatinandana: Is that a long duration of practice or just…, very short?
     Prabhupada: No, very short. SHORT MEAN THEIR SHORT. IT MAY TAKE LITTLE MORE TIME.
     Giriraja: Now they have machines that when the person is in coma, the machines artificially keep the heart beating and the other processes…
     Prabhupada: Then heart beating will go on, either you apply machine or no machine. Heart beating. But when the heart stops, no machine can revive it. So what is the use of machine? But by nature’s way when the heart beating will stop, no machine can help. That is not possible.

     750302r2.atl Conversations
     Prabhupada: WE CAN SEE WHEN A MAN IS IN COMA, HE CRIES, HE SUFFERS. BEFORE DEATH WHEN A MAN IS IN COMA SOMETIMES TEARS COME. Now why he says there is nothing? Imperfect knowledge, that’s all. Misguiding people.

     760726rc.lon Conversations
     George Harrison: When my mother died I had to send my sister and father out of the room, because they were getting emotional, and I just chanted Hare Krsna.
     Prabhupada: She chanted.
     George Harrison: I did.
     Prabhupada: Oh, very nice, so she could hear?
     George Harrison: I don’t know, I don’t know, she was in like a coma or something. It was the only thing I could think of.
     Prabhupada: When it happened?
     George Harrison: In 1970. It was the only thing I could think of that may be of value, you know.
     Prabhupada: Anyway, if she has heard Hare Krsna, she’ll get the benefit. Either she chants or somebody chanting, if she hears, sravanam kirtanam, both the same thing. Little chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. So let us practice in such a way that at the time of death we may remember. That is success. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. So you are reading Krsna repeatedly? Krsna book you are reading repeatedly?

     SB 4.29.76-77 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
     A living entity too much absorbed in material activity becomes very much attracted to the material body. EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH, HE THINKS OF HIS PRESENT BODY AND THE RELATIVES CONNECTED TO IT. THUS HE REMAINS FULLY ABSORBED IN THE BODILY CONCEPTION OF LIFE, SO MUCH SO THAT EVEN AT THE POINT OF DEATH HE ABHORS LEAVING HIS PRESENT BODY. SOMETIMES IT IS FOUND THAT A PERSON ON THE VERGE OF DEATH REMAINS IN A COMA FOR MANY DAYS BEFORE GIVING UP THE BODY. This is common among so-called leaders and politicians who think that without their presence the entire country and all society will be in chaos. This is called maya. Political leaders do not like to leave their political posts, and they either have to be shot by an enemy or obliged to leave by the arrival of death. By superior arrangement a living entity is offered another body, but because of his attraction to the present body, he does not like to transfer himself to another body. Thus he is forced to accept another body by the laws of nature.
     prakrteh kriyamanani
     gunaih karmani sarvasah
     ahankara-vimudhatma
     kartaham iti manyate

     “The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27)
     Material nature is very strong, and the material modes force one to accept another body. This force is visible when the living entity transmigrates from a superior body to an inferior one. One who acts like a dog or hog in the present body will certainly be forced to accept the body of a dog or hog in the next life. A PERSON MAY BE ENJOYING THE BODY OF A PRIME MINISTER OR A PRESIDENT, BUT WHEN HE UNDERSTANDS THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO ACCEPT THE BODY OF A DOG OR HOG, HE CHOOSES NOT TO LEAVE THE PRESENT BODY. THEREFORE HE LIES IN A COMA MANY DAYS BEFORE DEATH. This has been experienced by many politicians at the time of death. The conclusion is that the next body is already determined by superior control. The living entity immediately gives up the present body and enters another. Sometimes in the present body the living entity feels that many of his desires and imaginations are not fulfilled. Those who are overly attracted to their life situation are forced to remain in a ghostly body and are not allowed to accept another gross body. Even in the body of a ghost, they create disturbances for neighbors and relatives. The mind is the prime cause of such a situation. According to one’s mind, different types of bodies are generated, and one is forced to accept them. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (8.6):

     yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
     tyajaty ante kalevaram
     tam tam evaiti kaunteya
     sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

     “Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.” Within one’s body and mind, one can think as either a dog or a god, and the next life is offered to him accordingly. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita (13.22):

     purusah prakrti-stho hi
     bhunkte prakrtijan gunan
     karanam guna-sango ‘sya
     sad-asad-yoni-janmasu

     “The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species.” The living entity may transmigrate to either a superior or inferior body according to his association with the modes of material nature. If he associates with the mode of ignorance, he gets the body of an animal or an inferior man, but if he associates with the mode of goodness or passion, he gets a body accordingly. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.18):

     urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
     madhye tisthanti rajasah
     jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
     adho gacchanti tamasah

     “Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.”
     The root cause of one’s association is the mind. This great Krsna consciousness movement is the greatest boon to human society because it is teaching everyone to think always of Krsna by executing devotional service. In this way, at the end of life, one may be transferred to the association of Krsna. This is technically called nitya-lila-pravista, entering into the planet Goloka Vrndavana. Bhagavad-gita (18.55) explains:

     bhaktya mam abhijanati
     yavan yas casmi tattvatah
     tato mam tattvato jnatva
     visate tad-anantaram

     “One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.” After the mind is completely absorbed in Krsna consciousness, one can enter the planet known as Goloka Vrndavana. To enter the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one has to understand Krsna. The process of understanding Krsna is devotional service.
     After understanding Krsna as He is, one can become eligible to enter Krsnaloka and associate with Him. The mind is the cause of such an exalted position. The mind can also get one a body like those of dogs and hogs. To absorb the mind always in Krsna consciousness is therefore the greatest perfection of human life.

     Reply
140. Puranjana das says:

     13. April 2013 at 3:39 pm

     If it was not for the Christians and their police, courts, media and so on, the apa-GBC guru goondas would have killed me a long time ago. Also, the Christians do not worship persons engaged in illicit sex and so on, they have more sense. We could learn a thing or two from them. ys pd

     Reply
141. Mahesh Raja says:

     13. April 2013 at 9:14 pm

     Pratyatosa das:Unfortunately, lawsuits and bad publicity are the only language these rascal ISKCON leaders understand.

     Mahesh: This is the ONLY WAY to deal with these guys NOW. Srila Prabhupada would DEFINITELY prosecute:

     75-09-04. Letter: Paramahamsa:
     Regarding Manasvi, you should immediately prosecute. The charge should be Breach of Trust and Misappropriation of Funds. I have received today the Oath of Allegiance duly signed by him and notarized. When required it will be supplied to you. Therefore I wanted this declaration. Immediately prosecute.

     Reply
142. SG says:

     15. April 2013 at 3:06 pm

     Amar Puri says:
     12. April 2013 at 7:46 pm

     AP — By the way, please do not concoct any mundane idea about the pre / or
     post SAMADHI of the Spiritual Master and His Initiating Instructions because
     the Spiritual Master is always in SAMADHI and His Instructions are always valid.

     SG — Srila Prabhupada has departed and he body is now in samadhi. The ritviks are
     performing initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada after his departure and
     and telling the initiates that they are his initiated disciples. So, one
     would describe this as POST SAMADHI INITIATION OR IN YOUR CASE AS POST
     SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION. By the way use of the word posthumous would
     be better suited for materialists (Karmis). Srila Prabhupada is a spiritualist,
     a Maha Bhagavata.

     Amar Puri says:
     13. April 2013 at 2:52 am

     AP — Now let us hear from SG. Prabhu, his answer to my question whether or not
     if he believes in Srila Prabhupada’s Initiating Instructions as it is.

     SG — You sound like a little boy who thinks he has found a new toy to play with.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
143. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     16. April 2013 at 12:29 am

     Hare Krishna SG,

     well it seems like Krishna das, you’re also too busy replying to others to give me any of your valuable time. Or could it be that you are feeling embarrassed? Anyway here is my letter to you AGAIN just in case you missed it the first time:

     “recently some members of my family and several friends were abandoned by their guru after worshiping him for 20 and even 30 years. I’m interested to know how you would explain the following, as I’m needing a little help consoling them:

     Should they go back to using their karmi names, (after all they are no longer initiated devotees)?

     Have they wasted the best years of their lives?

     How do they get their money back? (A church cannot accept donations from members based on false pretense or deception)

     Has Prabhupada accepted their service?

     On that last point, if you say Prabhupada HAS accepted their service all along (which is exactly what our GBC told us when our guru ran away with the woman and the money) then you’re supporting Ritvik no? BUT, if you say “No Prabhupada cannot receive your service, this is a bogus idea”, then you’re saying they just wasted 20 or 30 years serving a fake, and are now RIGHT BACK AT THE POINT THEY STARTED,… Tom, Julie, John, Mel, etc, etc.

     Do you suggest they start over again and bow down to another ISKCON guru who they also have no idea what might be going on in his heart? (Oh by the way, some devotees from my country are onto their third and even forth guru, so they may need some convincing).

     I admire that you are willing to stand up for what YOU accept as right, but your system seems to have a pretty grim reality. Anyway I look forward to some words of enlightenment to brighten the very dark days these sincere devotees are going through after they took a gamble on guru and lost.”

     Awaiting your reply,……………………..

     Reply
144. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     16. April 2013 at 12:38 am

     It might be worth noting that outspoken devotees like Krishna Das and SG are silent when it comes to warning disciples of their cheating gurus.

     Could this means they themselves are bewildered by the very system they promote?

     Perhaps before they project ‘all fault’ onto the Ritviks they would do well to take a close look at their own guru ideology, practice, and it’s often disastrous results.

     Fortunately we have freedom of choice to accept the likes of KD and SG as our spiritual guides and mentors, OR, His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

     “Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura, in his eight stanzas of prayer to the spiritual master, has sung, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah: by pleasing the spiritual master, who is a pure Vaisnava, one pleases the Personality of Godhead,…”

     SB 4:9:23 pp HDG Srila Prabhupada

     Reply
145. Krishna das says:

     16. April 2013 at 9:43 am

     Puranjana prabhu, there never came a need for me to identify my Guru. So, this can’t be considered as an evidence that I am a mayavadi. How does it make a difference whether I identify my Guru or no? I can definitely assure you that one of the ISKCON devotees that the GBC has accepted as a bonafide spiritual master is my Guru. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, it is just a means to distract the attention of readers.

     >>were going to “give the initiation” (1st and 2nd formal initiations) ON THE BEHALF of the founder-acarya Srila Prabhupada

     Mark prabhu, can you tell me where is this proved in May 28th conversation? And what is this shiksha granddisciple and diksha disciple? All devotees are by default shiksha disciples of Prabhupada. So we become shiksha disciples, granddisciples, greatgranddisciples all at the same time, what an idea? One more thing is it is but understood that if any temple president or a counsellor is guiding someone, he is his shiksha disciple only. So when the question of “whose disciples will they be” was asked on may 28th, in the scenario of initiations when Prabhupada would no longer be with us, I find no reason to assume that Prabhupada meant shiksha granddisciples.

     >>Those who want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT Diksa Guru and discard his Ritvik System are NOT Prabhupadanugas

     Mr Mahesh, those who follow Prabhupada’s orders are real Prabhupadanugas, not those who are greedy to become absolute authority and for that reason fail to follow the strict and disciplined process of proving that they are qualified to be an absolute authority. When Prabhupada says “He is granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”, those who become his granddisciple or disciple of his disciple are real Prabhupadanugas, not those who try to become his direct disciples artificially.

     >>Krishna das is apparently an anonymous name, probably not the real name of the author

     How does that matter in this discussion? What is more important is whether Prabhupada wanted his disciples to be Gurus or no, How does it matter whether Krishna das is really Krishna das or someone else? Is this not an attempt to divert from the original topic?

     Mahesh, there is absolutely no evidence of Prabhupada being poisoned, except some whispers which actually wherein it was told “how many days can it prolong” in Bengali, that is propagated as having heard “poison ishavasya rasa” or some nonsense. Prabhupada’s final reports indicate that he had heavy diabetes and that was the material cause his ending of pastimes. His hair and blood had arsenic equal to what a normal diabetic has, nothing more. Those who believe in this poison conspiracy, I ask one question. How many of you have yourself took pain to see the original reports of Prabhupada? Why are you believing such an important thing blindly? Why has Nityananda prabhu not answered Ravindra Swarupa Prabhu’s challenge? And Mr Mahesh, when we are discussing whether present ISKCON Gurus are bonafide or no, why are you bringing these issues here just to misdirect the readers?

     Fruitseller, if your family members had problems this way, they must approach sadhus and discuss with them and also read the shastras, because these are our benchmarks, Guru, sadhu and shastras. They are not adviced to concoct some new methods of initiation and go against Prabhupada’s order of us being “granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”.

     >>It might be worth noting that outspoken devotees like Krishna Das and SG are silent when it comes to warning disciples of their cheating gurus.

     Sorry, it is not a bewilderment. I very well understand that we must at any point of time not go against Prabhupada, so we must consult other sadhus in ISKCON and read Prabhupada’s books, then we will get to know what is the way out in difficulty. And I am sure that ISKCON Gurus are not cheating people, because I have associated with them. Without association, simply hearing about them from others, you will not get to know who they are.

     I don’t mind if someone stops publishing my comments or not replying to them. I am not at loss. It is my responsibility to present the teachings of Prabhupada as I have received them as it is.

     Reply
146. Raghubir Das says:

     16. April 2013 at 9:51 am

     Whenever someone mentions extent of damage caused by ISKCON’s present guru system those who are responsible (GBC) for this installment (rope team system, when leader falls others are also swept away) are for an indefinite time out of office – or, the number you have dialed is temporarily not available.

     So lets put it this way: Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement is like river Ganges. Although there is lots of garbage in this river, sastra says you get purified. There is lots of crime within ISKCON, at one point it gets purified. So far Krishna by force removed almost 50 false gurus (approx 10 are no more alive) so there is quite some purificatory process going on.

     Of course when all sincere devotees leave ISKCON and only deviants are there doing mischief (latest coup, privatization of ISKCON Europe) then we might wait another 500 years till ISKCON is fully pure. So best thing is for all those sincere ISKCON devotees who feel cheated, stay where you are, ask for justice, pray to the Lord and Krishna will remove all stumbling blocks and trickery caused by deliberate act of corrupt GBC members.

     Right now ISKCON is expanding in the East and in the West there is kind of Hindu take-over, Westerners stay away, feel no more attracted. Before:

     

     Might be that after some time things restart in the West again. At least that’s what Lord Caitanya says, chanting of the Holy Name will spread in every town and village (He specifically says prithivite, means on the surface of the globe).

     “There may be so many hindrances. But one who is pure devotee, his business cannot be stopped. Therefore it is called ahaituky apratihata.” (Prabhupada, Calcutta, February 26, 1974)

     Reply
147. Mahesh Raja says:

     16. April 2013 at 11:01 am

     Krishna das: When Prabhupada says “He is granddisciple” or “disciple of my disciple”, those who become his granddisciple or disciple of his disciple are real Prabhupadanugas, not those who try to become his direct disciples artificially.

     Mahesh: What you AVOID to accept is in the SAME conversation it says “WHEN I order” there was NO ORDER. You keep on going round in circles hoping someone will buy your nonsense:

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     WHEN I order
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Become Guru by Order, That’s All
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm

     Krishna das: Mahesh, there is absolutely no evidence of Prabhupada being poisoned, except some whispers …

     Mahesh: You don’t be the judge. Let the devotees decide when they HEAR and RECOGNISE the voices WHO is whispering of POISONING Srila Prabhupada :

     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/Prabhupada998.pdf

     Krishna das:And Mr Mahesh, when we are discussing whether present ISKCON Gurus are bonafide or no, why are you bringing these issues here just to misdirect the readers?

     Mahesh: the Guru Issue is INTER-RELATED to the POISONING of Srila Prabhupada leading to the TAKE-OVER of his disciples, properties, temples, BBT, changing of Srila Prabhupada’s books.

     Besides, I am very glad YOU brought the subject up so that gives us an OPPORTUNITY to expose the JACKALS. So – THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

     Reply
148. Puranjana das says:

     16. April 2013 at 3:22 pm

     Puranjana prabhu, there never came a need for me to identify my Guru. So, this can’t be considered as an evidence that I am a mayavadi. How does it make a difference whether I identify my Guru or no? I can definitely assure you that one of the ISKCON devotees that the GBC has accepted as a bonafide spiritual master is my Guru. That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, it is just a means to distract the attention of readers.

     PADA: Because Srila Prabhupada says unless we give the name of our guru, we are a mayavada. We are personalists, we use names. Your guru does not teach that, because he is bogus. Now you are saying, following Srila Prabhupada’s ideas is not important? That proves your guru is bogus. You are saying there is a bona fide guru, but you do not want to tell the world who that is — so they will suffer, that is also mayavada, they say they have to keep their mantra secret and so on, while the world suffers.

     That means, your guru is bogus. Sorry, for you to say that following Srila Prabhupada is “a distraction” means, your guru is bogus for sure. You think following Srila Prabhupada’s idea is a distraction, because you are not following his ideas. You are concocting. If your guru is with the Jayadvaita party that says gurus engage in illicit sex with men, women and children, where is his public recantation of these odious ideas? If he is not protesting, then he is implicated with these ideas. Srimate Draupadi said, anyone who does not speak up is just as bad as Dusasana is. And Srila Prabhupada says, all those who did not speak up, had to be killed because they made Krishna angry for not speaking up. ys pd

     Reply
149. mark says:

     16. April 2013 at 6:18 pm

     Krishna das writes:

     >>were going to “give the initiation” (1st and 2nd formal initiations) ON THE BEHALF of the founder-acarya Srila Prabhupada

     Mark prabhu, can you tell me where is this proved in May 28th conversation? And what is this shiksha granddisciple and diksha disciple? All devotees are by default shiksha disciples of Prabhupada. So we become shiksha disciples, granddisciples, greatgranddisciples all at the same time, what an idea? One more thing is it is but understood that if any temple president or a counsellor is guiding someone, he is his shiksha disciple only. So when the question of “whose disciples will they be” was asked on may 28th, in the scenario of initiations when Prabhupada would no longer be with us, I find no reason to assume that Prabhupada meant shiksha granddisciples.”

     My full statement was.

     “Yet it was implicitly and explicitly stated that those who Srila Prabhupada was naming as “Ritvik acarya” were going to “give the initiation” (1st and 2nd formal initiations) ON THE BEHALF of the founder-acarya Srila Prabhupada, especially after he was “no longer with us.” (post disappearance).”

     SDG: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.

     ** got that so far? “after he was no longer with us, (post disappearance),” “1st and 2nd initiations.” **

     Prabhupada: I shall recommend some of you … to act as officiating acarya.
     TKG: Is that called ritvik acarya?
     Prabhupada: Ritvik. Yes.

     ** SP agrees that his original definition of “officiating acarya” is equal to “ritvik acarya” **

     SDG: What is the relationship of the person who gives initiation and…
     Prabhupada: He’s guru. He’s guru.
     SDG: But he does it on your behalf.
     Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf.

     ** SP confirms that the “person who “gives initiation” (TP or possibly the ritvik) does so ON SP’S BEHALF. (HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN “HE DOES IT ON YOUR BEHALF” GET FOR YOU? **

     Granted, he does qualify that the order is for “in his presence”, but obviously his Murti in every temple tends to convey his presence which would cover the future when his body would be placed in samadhi and his presence would be “limited” to his murti’s and his Vani.

     As for the use of grand-disciple. In the few cases where this concept is spoken of by Srila Prabhupada, it is used to describe the relationship between Mahabhagavatas. If you look carefully at the list of prominent acaryas in our disciplic succession as represented in the Gita, the SB, and the CC ADI ch.1, you will notice that it is possible to be considered the grand-disciple of someone without you OR your spiritual master having received formal diksa. So, technically, the term COULD be used to describe any second generation Siksa disciple of a disciple of Srila Prabhupada’s whose formal link to the Parampara is done through the formality of a ritvik style Diksa initiation.

     The point that any honest reader of that May 28th conversation will come to is that there seems to be a contradiction. In that Srila Prabhupada describes his idea for a ritvik acarya as a person who will EITHER initiate newcomers OR authorize a TP to initiate new disciples “on Srila Prabhuapda’s behalf”,
     Yet he simultaneously implies by the use of “grand-disciple” that those giving the initiation (not necessarily the ritvik, but the TP most likely) are more than a non-liberated Siksa guru, since usually Grand disciple is used to denote a formal Diksa disciple or Siksa disciple of a fully liberated spiritual master, whose spiritual master was fully liberated as well.

     The key to reconciling this contradiction is simply that this was a brainstorming conversation about what Srila Prabhupada said he was thinking about doing in the future. It was obvious to any honest person that those he was speaking to already had a preconceived notion that THEY were to become the Diksa gurus of new disciples after SP disappeared. If they were simply there to follow SP’s instructions, they would have had no more questions after they heard “on my behalf”. Nonetheless, their ambition was different, and Srila Prabhupada APPEARED to meet them in their ambition by describing the one giving the initiation as a guru who would have disciples who would be His grand-disciples. But the KEY is that SP repeated 3 TIMES “WHEN I ORDER”.

     The actual order that came a month later not only changed the title of the ritviks from “ritvik acarya” to “ritvik representative of the acarya”, but it said NOTHING about the one’s performing the initiations (TP or Local teacher/brahmana) becoming Diksa guru and taking Diksa disciples, or even having exclusive Siksa disciples for that matter.

     Also the order said NOTHING about Grand-disciples.

     The order simply mentioned the initiates being direct disciples of SP, which was the same as all of HIS ritvik initiated disciples became up to that time for years. That was it. No further order. All TP’s were to be Siksa gurus by implication, that is it.

     If someone really loves and respectes the devotee who has been their Siksa guru all their life, and considers that devotee to be his Spiritual master and Srila Prabhupada to be his Grand Spiritual master, I don’t see the harm in that as long as

     1. they understand that their Spiritual master has NO SANCTION TO CHANGE SRILA PRABHUAPDA’S STANDARDS

     2. as long as such an understanding of grand-disciple is not formalized in any way, but simply remains an affectionate understanding of the Siksa guru in the parampara.

     Hare Krsna

     Reply
150. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     16. April 2013 at 8:18 pm

     “Krishna das” is better than “SG” for the following two reasons:

     1. SG has taken unfair advantage of his anonymity by launching ad hominen attacks against some of those who have replied to him who are not hiding behind such a cowardly cloak. As far as I know, Krishna das has not done this.

     2. Although both of them are ritvik bashers, SG is also an ISKCON leader basher, which is a tip-off that he is simply trying to puff himself up by putting everyone else down. As far as I know, Krishna das has not criticized any ISKCON leaders.

     Reply
151. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     16. April 2013 at 8:26 pm

     Okay Krishna das you have AVOIDED MY QUESTION ONCE AGAIN. Now I am starting tho think you are being a bit sneaky? Your ‘cherry picking’ is not straight or forward behaviour. So once more (Three times for clarity) here it is. I am loosing respect for you and yes, will stop debating with you as you have little valour. You made the statement below, so whu won’t you take responsibility? You’re on here preaching big to everyone when it suits you, but your sudden silence when challenged raises serious doubts,… weakness at best, cunning at worst. Is this how you represent your ISKCON? Does he approve of this dualistic behaviour?

     ”Dear Krishna das, you are obviously very intelligent and a good debater,… I even agreed with some of the points you’ve made from time to time. However, when you write; “In this way all these ritviks achieve their selfish motive of becoming an absolute controller” I experience you as dishonest,… and perhaps even a little desperate? How could you possibly know the MOTIVES of ALL THESE RITVIKS? Are you telling me you can see right into ALL of their hearts?? If not, then I must conclude you’re speaking a falsehood simply to bolster your position?
     Why would someone who is as absolutely convinced as you seem to be, need to stoop to this kind of behaviour? Come’on prabhu, you have taken it upon yourself to represent your own guru and to become the mouthpiece within this forum for all ISKCON gurudom. I am not a Ritvik, and I don’t have an attachment to their victory or defeat within this debate. But when you let slip like this I think it just strengthens the argument that some current ISKCON guru’s and followers are prone to stretch the truth or distort facts to fit ‘their’ own motives!”

     I do hope you get time to read it. You quote so much Vaisnava scripture that I figured that you must be a personalist? I have simply addressed something YOU wrote, so I hope you can find the time to answer my concerns as it was YOU who raised them with YOUR writings.

     Reply
152. Amar Puri says:

     16. April 2013 at 8:37 pm

     SG — You sound like a little boy who thinks he has found a new toy to play with.

     I do not have any time to waste in playing with a new toy as you replied to my simple question when you are asked whether or not you accept and obey Srila Prabhupada’s Initiating Instructions as it is in a YES or NO format, SG.

     So please do not demonstrate playing such game yourself in this public forum, SG because you are an intelligent person as it seems.

     The choice is your, Sadharan Jiva, either to accept or reject it.

     The same question is for Krishna das who is also playing the same game of SG repeatedly.

     Hope it meets you well.

     YS…….. Amar Puri.

     Reply
153. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     16. April 2013 at 8:44 pm

     Krishna das writes: And I am sure that ISKCON Gurus are not cheating people, because I have associated with them.

     This is great news KD. Please tell us all those rumors about Ramai Swami are false. By the way, when did you associate with his last, what service did you help him with, where was he preaching? Oh, and then there is Prabhavisnu Swami. His disciples and EVERYONE in his zone associated with him for decades, and most of us feel he CHEATED BIG TIME. But you have associated with ISKCON gurus so you would know better than us, and have put us all in line with your correcting statements.

     Sorry Krishna das but I can’t help but laugh at your ridiculous statement. Neither have you ‘assoiciated with ALL the ISKCON gurus OR had their association ALL the time. You don’t know what is going on in their hearts and minds anymore than we do, that would make you ALL KNOWING?

     Krishna das will never answer this post in an honest and straight forward way. I have exposed him and he is silent in his defeat. Way to go KD, your non-cheating ISKCON guru must be proud of you

     Reply
154. SG says:

     17. April 2013 at 7:37 am

     Hare Krsna,
     Just-a-fruit-seller

     Just-a-fruit-seller says:
     16. April 2013 at 12:29 am

     “..recently some members of my family and several friends were abandoned by their guru after worshiping him for 20 and even 30 years. I’m interested to know how you would explain the following, as I’m needing a little help consoling them”

     SG —

     1. What is the name of this guru ? Is he an Iskcon/GBC appointed guru ?
     When was he appointed as guru in Iskcon ? When did this guru fell from
     grace ?

     2.what are the names of your family members and friends? When did they
     take initiation from this guru? Were they full time or part time disciples
     of this guru? How did they come to decide to accept him as a guru ? Did
     anyone tricked them or forced them to accept him as their guru ? If so,
     what are the names of those persons ? Or did they accept him voluntarily ?
     If so, how did they come to make this decision ?

     3. In the 30 over years of worshipping the guru, what did they learn ?
     Were they reading Srila Prabhupada books daily? Were they aware that
     there were Iskcon appointed guru falling down like pinballs over the
     last 3 and half decades. If they were aware what did they do after
     hearing about it ? Did they inquire about these :

     a) Should they go back to using their karmi names, (after all they are
     no longer initiated devotees)?

     b) Have they wasted the best years of their lives?

     c) How do they get their money back? (A church cannot accept donations
     from members based on false pretense or deception)

     d) Has Prabhupada accepted their service?

     They could have inquired from their guru or the GBC or the temple president
     or from any senior devotees who were present there or for that matter
     from anyone inside or outside Iskcon. We are talking about these
     devotees who have been in the Iskcon movement for 30 over years chanting
     the Maha Mantra and preforming practical devotional services and having
     reading classes daily and associating with other devotees. How could they
     have missed the news about gurus falling from grace.

     If they had sincerely read Srila Prabhupada books they would have across
     this statement in the Caitanya Caritamrita :

     SRI JIVA GOSVAMI ADVISES THAT ONE NOT ACCEPT A SPIRITUAL MASTER
     IN TERMS OF HEREDITARY OR CUSTOMARY SOCIAL AND ECCLESIASTICAL
     CONVENTIONS.

     (Ecclesiastical – Of or relating to a church, especially as an
     organized institution )

     (Convention – a meeting or an assembly of persons, esp. of
     delegates or representatives, to accomplish some specific object,
     — civil, social, political, or ecclesiastical )

     ONE SHOULD SIMPLY TRY TO FIND A GENUINELY QUALIFIED SPIRITUAL MASTER
     FOR ACTUAL ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.

     The above statement is quite clear. This is Srila Prabhupada own
     statement. If they were not aware of anything what then were they
     doing for the last 30 over years ??????. The zonal gurus were
     falling from grace since the early eighties.The ritviks were around
     since the nineties. And they were saying Srila Prabhupada did not
     appoint any gurus. The Internet was available since the nineties

     Surely, it cannot be that throughout their 30 years of service all
     they have been doing was sit on their guru’s lap and sucked on his
     tits. And now you come and ask us this questions as if we owe you
     an explanation.

     JFS — On that last point, if you say Prabhupada HAS accepted their
     service all along (which is exactly what our GBC told us when our
     guru ran away with the woman and the money) then you’re supporting
     Ritvik no?

     SG — From the discussion that has been taking place for some now on
     this web site we have come to understand that ritvik means a priest.
     What is your understanding of ritvik ??

     If GBC says that Srila Prabhupada has accepted their services then
     you will have to ask them how he has accepted their services.

     JFS — BUT, if you say “No Prabhupada cannot receive your service,
     this is a bogus idea”, then you’re saying they just wasted 20 or 30 years
     serving a fake, and are now RIGHT BACK AT THE POINT THEY STARTED,…
     Tom, Julie, John, Mel, etc, etc.

     SG — Then lets not say anything. Just chant Hare Krsna Maha Mantra and
     read Srila Prabhupada books.

     JFS — Do you suggest they start over again and bow down to another
     ISKCON guru who they also have no idea what might be going on in his
     heart? (Oh by the way, some devotees from my country are onto their
     third and even forth guru, so they may need some convincing).

     SG — Why should we suggest such a foolish thing. We should give a title
     to this discussion. We should call it — SPIRITUAL CHARLATANS —
     A CASE STUDY OF THE CHEATERS AND THE FOOLISH CHEATED.

     JFS — I admire that you are willing to stand up for what YOU accept
     as right, but your system seems to have a pretty grim reality.

     SG — And what system is that, that has a pretty grim reality ?

     JFS — Anyway I look forward to some words of enlightenment to brighten
     the very dark days these sincere devotees are going through after they
     took a gamble on guru and lost.”

     SG — Why gamble ? What happened to their intelligence?? So, instead
     of carefully and sincerely studying Srila Prabhupada’s books on how to
     choose a bonafide guru they decided to take easy way out by playing a
     game of chance, gambled on how or who to choose as a guru and lost. Who
     is to blamed for that. The rest of the world ??. As for words of enlightenment
     – continue to chant the Maha Mantra and read Srila Prabhupada books. What
     else is there to say since only death awaits at end of one’s life on this
     side of the material world.

     Just-a-fruit-seller says:
     16 April 2013 at 12:38 am

     JFS — It might be worth noting that outspoken devotees like Krishna Das and SG
     are silent when it comes to warning disciples of their cheating gurus.

     Could this means they themselves are bewildered by the very system they promote?

     SG — Now exactly what system is SG is trying to promote ????

     Just-a-fruit-seller says:
     16. April 2013 at 8:44 pm

     JFS — ” I am loosing respect for you and yes, will stop debating with you
     as you have little valour.”

     JFS — ” Krishna das will never answer this post in an honest and straight
     forward way. I have exposed him and he is silent in his defeat.”

     SG — Should have known better. We thought when the fruit seller posted
     those questions on 11. April 2013 at 8:33 am he was genuinely concerned
     about the welfare of his fellow godbrothers and sisters and family at the
     Australian Yatra.

     Obviously, that seems to be not his intention. Just another debating snake
     passing through looking for some glory.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
155. Raghubir Das says:

     17. April 2013 at 9:15 am

     1. What is the name of this guru? Is he an Iskcon/GBC appointed guru?
     When was he appointed as guru in Iskcon ? When did this guru fell from grace?

     2.what are the names of your family members and friends? When did they take initiation from this guru? Were they full time or part time disciples of this guru? How did they come to decide to accept him as a guru ? Did anyone tricked them or forced them to accept him as their guru ? If so, what are the names of those persons ? Or did they accept him voluntarily?
     If so, how did they come to make this decision ?

     Typical ISKCON GBC bag of tricks, pretending to offer help, sound people out carefully, investigate, investigate further, investigate even more, delaying tactics, stonewalling, leave people stranded, bring you low, finally, leave you out in the rain. Last but not least, slamming doors.

     Mr. SG (anonymous) should admit that his living guru illusion has not only produced huge amount of financial damage, but has turned Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement into a lottery gamble where people might lose goods and chattels – having their lives spoiled by false gurus who are nothing but thieves and rogues.

     This might work in madhouse India or 3rd world countries where people are without possessions and used to get cheated throughout life.

     At this forum there should be no dilettantish quackery of pseudo consultants who are nothing but psychopathic personality themselves.

     Reply
156. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     17. April 2013 at 9:32 am

     SG writes: Obviously, that seems to be not his intention. Just another debating snake
     passing through looking for some glory.

     Annnnnd,….. there we have it. The insult.

     Reply
157. SG says:

     17. April 2013 at 2:40 pm

     Raghubir Das says:
     17 April 2013 at 9:15 am

     ” Typical ISKCON GBC bag of tricks, pretending to offer help, sound people out carefully, investigate, investigate further, investigate even more, delaying tactics, stonewalling, leave people stranded, bring you low, finally, leave you out in the rain. Last but not least, slamming doors.

     Mr. SG (anonymous) should admit that his living guru illusion has not only produced huge amount of financial damage, but has turned Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement into a lottery gamble where people might lose goods and chattels — having their lives spoiled by false gurus who are nothing but thieves and rogues.

     This might work in madhouse India or 3rd world countries where people are without possessions and used to get cheated throughout life.

     At this forum there should be no dilettantish quackery of pseudo consultants who are nothing but psychopathic personality themselves. My two cents worth. ”

     SG — You are right. Have to agree with you. There are worth about two cents or less only.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
158. SG says:

     17. April 2013 at 3:39 pm

     Just-a-fruit-seller says:
     17 April 2013 at 9:32 am

     JFS — Annnnnd,….. there we have it. The insult.

     SG — Go ahead. Take it. You deserve the compliment. It fits your nature.

     HARE KRSNA

     .

     Reply
159. Puranjana das says:

     17. April 2013 at 4:21 pm

     I know a number of people who are now “far and away” worse off after contacting a GBC guru. Some of them were sent to jail for performing crimes under the guru’s orders, some of them now hate Krishna, and some of them committed suicide. Many of them were abused severely as children. Apparently, they would have been better off not getting involved at all. Of course some of their gurus are also dead, they got the karma of behaving badly too. ys pd

     Reply
160. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     17. April 2013 at 8:31 pm

     My apologies SG, I had mistakenly thought from your earlier posts that you were pro-ISKCON guru system, and that is why I asked you those questions. It now appears you actually don’t like anyone I guess you have your reasons for this.

     As far as you KNOWING if I am “genuinely concerned about the welfare of my fellow godbrothers and sisters and family at the Australian Yatra: you actually have NO IDEA what I am (or am not) genuinely concerned about. You’re BLUFFING,.. presenting a falsehood as truth. You don’t know the hearts of men anymore than KD does.

     I’m sorry but I am unwilling to accept your bluffs and insults,…. you get to own those.

     Wishing you all the best. JFS

     Reply
161. SG says:

     18. April 2013 at 3:24 am

     Just-a-fruit-seller says:
     17. April 2013 at 8:31 pm

     My apologies SG, I had mistakenly thought from your earlier posts that you were pro-ISKCON guru system, and that is why I asked you those questions. It now appears you actually don’t like anyone I guess you have your reasons for this.

     As far as you KNOWING if I am “genuinely concerned about the welfare of my fellow godbrothers and sisters and family at the Australian Yatra: you actually have NO IDEA what I am (or am not) genuinely concerned about. You’re BLUFFING,.. presenting a falsehood as truth. You don’t know the hearts of men anymore than KD does.

     I’m sorry but I am unwilling to accept your bluffs and insults,…. you get to own those.

     Wishing you all the best. JFS

     ================================================/

     SG — My dandavats and humble apologies to you, Just-a-fruit-seller.

     HARE KRSNA.

     Reply
162. Puranjana das says:

     18. April 2013 at 4:18 am

     The 1988 book “Monkey On A Stick” had a sub-title “Murder, madness and the Hare Krishnas.” Yep, as soon as someone thinks “I have been ordered by God to be the next messiah,” — and they really were NOT ordered by God to be the next messiah, that is what happens in many cases — murder and madness. How come the materialists seem to have to end up — telling “the devotees” about the defects of their bogus messiah’s program, whereas many “devotees” cannot see the problems of their false messiah program? This is baffling. ys pd

     Reply
163. Krishna das says:

     18. April 2013 at 9:30 am

     >> What you AVOID to accept is in the SAME conversation it says “WHEN I order” there was NO ORDER

     I never avoid that statement Mr Mahesh, my simple point is must that order be necessarily a future order? Can’t it mean Prabhupada is telling at that time only as an authoritative statement “When I order(meaning I being the highest authority now am ordering)”? If considering a future order, is it necessary for the order to be explicit? Prabhupada has mentioned elsewhere that the order can beimplicit in the form of “yare dekho..” verse. If you are adamant in thinking that the order must be explicit, then is there any evidence whatsoever that the order is not given personally to his disciples? If you are demanding a recorded tape or a written evidence for the order, why don’t you demand the same evidence for Prabhupada’s being a Guru?

     Puranjana Prabhu, my spiritual master is certainly one of the disciples of Prabhupada and one of the Gurus authorized by the GBC. So that much identification of my spiritual master is enough to state that I am not a mayavadi. If I were so, I would say in general that anyone may be my Guru or something like that. I have identified that my Guru is indeed a disciple of Prabhupada, so that identification no more classifies me among mayavadis.

     >>but obviously his Murti in every temple tends to convey his presence which would cover the future when his body would be placed in samadhi and his presence would be “limited” to his murti’s and his Vani

     In that case Mark prabhu, even Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and all previous acharyas photos are present in altar, meaning they are also present in the temple. So taking this statement that in the presence of Guru one must initiate on his behalf, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was present in form of photo when Prabhupada initiated, so Prabhupada should have done on his behalf.

     >>In that Srila Prabhupada describes his idea for a ritvik acarya as a person who will EITHER initiate newcomers OR authorize a TP to initiate new disciples “on Srila Prabhuapda’s behalf”

     Not necessary. The word ritvik means a priest. A priest may not always do yajna on someone else’s behalf. He can himself be a priest and at the same time do the activity of initiating himself. In initial days of ISKCON Prabhupada was himself doing yajnas, later he trained his disciples to do yajnas during initiations. The meaning of Ritvik is wrongly understood and propogated as having to mean he must always do the yajna on someone else’s behalf only.

     Fruit seller, regarding your point that all ritviks are not having selfish motives, I have agreed this point. What I mean to say is some people have, and they wrongly utilize those who are distressed due to problems in ISKCON, or those who are new to ISKCON and train them to follow themselves absolutely. I have dealt with this doubt of yours in every post of mine. Everywhere I admit that some people are ill motivated and some are following them. What made you feel I am accusing all? Please don’t take comments personally. We must fight with a mood that ISKCON is the beneficiary at all the time.

     >>You don’t know what is going on in their hearts and minds anymore than we do

     And Fruitseller, you know so much without associating with them and hearing from them and I know the same after associating and hearing from them. I think you had got an enlightenment from Krishna dirctly about them or your guide(who is your absolute authority indirectly) has informed you about ISKCON Gurus?

     >>I know a number of people who are now “far and away” worse off after contacting a GBC guru. Some of them were sent to jail for performing crimes under the guru’s orders, some of them now hate Krishna, and some of them committed suicide. Many of them were abused severely as children

     Please come to Bangalore, Puranjana prabhu, you will get a whole list of people who have lost faith in Krishna, not following regulative principles, not chanting and many more just because they followed this concocted ritvikism. A genuine process is not judged by how many people left it, but how many people are strictly following it. So are you saying that Prabhupada is not bonafide because many of his disciples left him and also many performed so many wrong activities? I am not saying it, the logic presented by you tends to this.

     Also Puranjana prabhu, if we write the success stories of ISKCON, we can write hundreds of books, in comparison to one “monkey on a stick”. Writing some book will not make the right things wrong. If some things have gone wrong, it is because the principles outlined by Prabhupada were not implemented properly. Now you are also performing the same mistake by concocting a new method that Prabhupada has never mentioned in any of his teachings throughout his lifetime.

     Reply
164. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     18. April 2013 at 10:59 am

     Krishna das says: …even Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and all previous acharyas photos are present in altar, meaning they are also present in the temple. So taking this statement that in the presence of Guru one must initiate on his behalf, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was present in form of photo when Prabhupada initiated, so Prabhupada should have done on his behalf.

     All previous acharyas’ photos are present on all ISKCON altars? This is obviously not true! As far as I know, all previous acharyas’ photos are not present on ANY ISKCON altar!

     Where is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s equivalent of the July 9, 1977 letter? It doesn’t exist! Therefore, there is a difference.

     Besides, Prabhupada started ISKCON for his own disciples. not for the disciples of others. Therefore, if a disciple of Prabhupada wants to be a guru, then he should follow Prabhupada’s example and start his own institution, rather than try to usurp Prabhupada’s position within Prabhupada’s institution (ISKCON).

     Then the market would decide how much spiritual potency he actually has.

     Reply
165. Just-a-fruit-seller says:

     18. April 2013 at 1:11 pm

     Dear Krishna das,

     I joined ISKCON almost 30 years ago. I served within ISKCON full time for many years and had association with many gurus. When I first joined everyone in temple was Ritvik,… no one had living guru in good standing,… everyone was simply following Srila Prabhupada and temple life was very alive and happy. Their previous guru was banned by GBC before I joined for being active homosexual with young boys. I myself accepted initiation from another ISKCON guru, but he took the wife of my godbrother and abandoned his disciples. Some of my family and many of my friends had taken initiation from yet another ISKCON guru who was also our GBC. After many years of giving so much service and money to their guru, that guru admitted being prostitute hunter, fallen down and deceiving for many years.

     So you see the conclusions I have drawn about ISKCON guru’s are not because I didn’t have their association, but because I did! You may say “No, no, no, they are not all like this” but the problem is you don’t who is real, and who is fake! If I follow you it is ‘blind man leading blind man’. As I said before, you cannot read the hearts of men any more than I can.

     If we say about something,“OH THIS IS DEFINATELY TRUE” but in our hearts we don’t really know if it is true or not, that is called ‘speculating’ or ‘gambling on the outcome’. The current ISKCON system is a form of gambling. I personally believe Srila Prabhupada DID NOT implement THIS destructive, rajas, tamas system that has created so much damage to so many souls who came to live in the house Srila Prabhupada built for us all.

     I hope you can understand now little better why I cannot accept the ISKCON guru system that you are promoting. You seem like a thoughtful prabhu, so please keep thinking these ideas over and over. I have appreciated the time in debate with you but will stop now least I labour the point anymore than I already have.

     Wishing you all the best. JFS

     Reply
166. Mahesh Raja says:

     18. April 2013 at 1:24 pm

     Mr Krishna das Srila Prabhupada does NOT need to prove his order – simple as that.

     Srila Prabhupada is SELF-EFFULGENT ACARYA – no proof required.

     Reply
167. Puranjana das says:

     18. April 2013 at 4:26 pm

     Also Puranjana prabhu, if we write the success stories of ISKCON, we can write hundreds of books, in comparison to one “monkey on a stick”. Writing some book will not make the right things wrong. If some things have gone wrong, it is because the principles outlined by Prabhupada were not implemented properly. Now you are also performing the same mistake by concocting a new method that Prabhupada has never mentioned in any of his teachings throughout his lifetime.

     PD: OK, so that proves they are not gurus, they did not implement the orders, they said Kirtanananda is a pure devotee, and the result was Monkey On A Stick, as well as tons of other bad media, temples closing, molested children, dead cows, and so on, right, they are not gurus because they did not follow their guru. You said it not me! ys pd

     Reply
168. MARK says:

     18. April 2013 at 6:41 pm

     KD wrote:

     Mark:>>but obviously his Murti in every temple tends to convey his presence which would cover the future when his body would be placed in samadhi and his presence would be “limited” to his murti’s and his Vani”

     KD REPLY: In that case Mark prabhu, even Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and all previous acharyas photos are present in altar, meaning they are also present in the temple. So taking this statement that in the presence of Guru one must initiate on his behalf, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was present in form of photo when Prabhupada initiated, so Prabhupada should have done on his behalf.

     Mark’s new reply: NO. The difference is that they did not order a ritvik initiation system. To bad you are so biased in your defense of the indefensible that simple matters like that elude you.

     Also, it is a general rule that in the “presence” of one’s guru, that you “bring prospective disciples to him”. However, an Acarya can make, adjust, and even break rules as he sees fit. The point is DO AS HE SAYS, and LATER ORDERS ALWAYS SUPERSEDE PAST ORDERS.
     ——————————————————————————————————————-

     KD wrote:

     Mark: >>In that Srila Prabhupada describes his idea for a ritvik acarya as a person who will EITHER initiate newcomers OR authorize a TP to initiate new disciples “on Srila Prabhuapda’s behalf”

     KD reply: Not necessary. The word ritvik means a priest. A priest may not always do yajna on someone else’s behalf. He can himself be a priest and at the same time do the activity of initiating himself. In initial days of ISKCON Prabhupada was himself doing yajnas, later he trained his disciples to do yajnas during initiations. The meaning of Ritvik is wrongly understood and propogated as having to mean he must always do the yajna on someone else’s behalf only.

     Mark new reply: What is necessary is to apply the chosen duties of the ritvik as DESCRIBED TO YOU BY THE FOUNDER ACARYA.

     First of all, you have NO PROOF of “ritvik priests” initiating on their own behalf, so just forget about that one.

     That entire comment of yours is just convoluted, mentally concocted gobbledygook, and has no import.

     My statement stands EXACTLY AS I WROTE IT AND REMAINS UNCHALLENGED BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA EXPLAINED.

     In Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon, the ritvik was a Zonal official. He may or may not have anything to do with the examination, recommendation, performance of fire yajna, and training of a disciple. Usually, HE WOULD NOT.

     That is simply the way it was, the way he explained it, and no armchair sophistry of yours can change that fact.

     You should do yourself a favor and get yourself a Sanskrit dictionary. Then find yourself a Srimad Bhagavatam. Look up every use of Ritvik, Rtvij, and its variants. Then read about the 4 different subcategories of priests that are ritviks. Then realize how their functions were derived in Dwapara yuga or greater. Then realize how their functions, like everything else “hindu” are now watered down and bastardized, which is why we follow PANCARATRA VIDDHI, because the old VEDIC VIDDHI, is impossible to follow strictly and is for hypocrites only.

     Therefore, the only way to understand how a ritvik priest could possibly function in Kali Yuga, is to understand from an expert in Pancaratra Viddhi like Srila Prabhupada. He created a ritvik position unique to his Daiva Varnasrama Dharma movement based on Pancaratrik viddhi, and you can compare it to everything you THINK you know about what a “ritvik” is, and waste your time, or you can follow the order and understanding given by the Founder Acarya.

     Take you pick, (obviously you already have, which is why you continue to stumble all over yourself trying to defend the indefensible).

     Hare Krsna

     Reply
169. Balaram das says:

     19. April 2013 at 5:05 am

     Yes Bhakta Mark prabhu,
     We disciples of Srila Prabhupada follow the Pancaratrik-viddhi or Bhagavat-viddhi system as you say. As such, Srila Prabhupada can and did make adjustments as to how the process for spreading Krsna Consciousness can be applied in Kali Yuga, even in spite of much criticism from his godbrothers. He is the Founder-Acharya of his own society forever, as he stated.. ISKCON is my body.

     Those who use the amara ajnaya verse (CC Madya 7.128) to justify the case for the mass rubber-stamped ‘diksa’ guru case, are defeated by the very nature and import of the verse itself. It is generally accepted by all, that except for extreme cases, eg Srila Bhaktivinode requiring his son to request diksa from Srila Gaura Kisora das Babaji, that one must not initiate in the presence of one’s diksa guru. Therefore if the above verse is mistakenly taken to mean give diksa, the process of disciplic SUCCESSION is no longer applicable, as everyone can now give diksa without waiting for the departure of their own diksa guru.

     When Srila Prabhupada used this verse in his Bhaktivedanta Purports and lectures, he used it in the PRESENT TENSE, as did Lord Caitanya, meaning siksa..go out and preach! He didn’t say this verse only applies to my disciples after I have left this planet, as would be the case if it meant ‘diksa’.

     Kurma Brahmana was told by Mahaprabhu NOT to leave home, NOT to take sannyasa, but rather stay at home, chant Hare Krsna and preach the same to whomever you meet (siksa). Please read and study these most important verses CC Madya 126-130, especially the Bhaktivedanta Purports where Srila Prabhupada states in purport verse 130, ” …..One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first class devotee”. Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples”.

     Also in relation to this verse, Srila Prabhupada uses little 5 year old Saraswati as an example of it’s purport and how it is applied.

     “Therefore Chaitanya Mahaprabhu… Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa: “You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krishna has said.” Just see how simplified. Don’t talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha ‘krsna’–bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Syamasundara’s daughter. She was preaching, “Do you know Krishna?” They said, “No I have got no…” “The Supreme Personality.” This is preaching, simply if you say that “Krishna is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him.” Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Krishna. Bas. Three words: Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead; surrender unto Him; and chant Hare Krishna. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvati, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, grown-up, advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words, that “Krishna is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Krishna”–bas, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words.”
     (Room Conversation, 25/1/77)

     ps…Everyone can become (siksa or vartma-pradarsak) guru by teaching these three words on MAHAPRABHU’S ORDER, but he never ordered Kurma Brahmana to become a diksa guru.

     Your servant in the service of Srila Prabhupada.
     Humbly,
     Balaram das…Australia.

     Reply
170. Krishna das says:

     19. April 2013 at 11:24 am

     >>Where is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s equivalent of the July 9, 1977 letter? It doesn’t exist

     Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura was not be in a situation similar to that of Prabhupada where many devotees all over the world were waiting to get initiated. So to address this issue Prabhupada started the system.

     >>Therefore, if a disciple of Prabhupada wants to be a guru, then he should follow Prabhupada’s example and start his own institution

     Pratyatosha prabhu, can you please cite any statement of Prabhupada that if someone wants to be a Guru he must start an institution? In that case, Gaura Kishore Dasa Babaji Maharaj started no institution. What do you think about this? The only quote I know about Prabhupada’s disciples being supposed to do when Prabhupada is no longer with us is that Prabhupada said “He is granddisciple” and further “disciple of my disciple”. Prabhupada never mentioned that “you must start a new institution and then only the newly initiated people can become a granddisciple or disciple of my disciple. Till then they all will be my disciples only”. Please give me one such explicit statement. You asked me for explicit proofs all the while, now the onus is on you all to provide explicit proofs.

     Sad to know about you Fruitseller. But please don’t follow any manufactured process not authorized by Prabhupada to come out of the suffering you are in now.

     >>Srila Prabhupada does NOT need to prove his order

     But ISKCON Gurus need to prove, am I right Mr Mahesh. Just because a great Paramahamsa namely Mahesh Raja dasa goswami maharaj has accepted Prabhupada as a spiritual master, no proof is required for Prabhupada, but because the same Pahamahamsa has rejected ISKCON Gurus, proofs are needed for them.

     I only accepted that there are problems in ISKCON. I have never concluded Puranjana prabhu that no ISKCON Gurus are bonafide.

     >> The difference is that they did not order a ritvik initiation system.

     Similarly Mark Prabhu, Prabhupada ordered ritvik system of initiation when the question was asked about so many devotees waiting for initiations and he being unable to travel. That too, when the question of India came, he said “India, I am here” meaning his physical presence. When asked about what will happen regarding initiations when Prabhupada is no longer with us, he was clear “He is granddisciple”

     >>LATER ORDERS ALWAYS SUPERSEDE PAST ORDERS

     Is it also mandatory that all orders must be recorded or printed? In that case Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura’s orders to Prabhupada are also not printed. I am not questioning Prabhupada but I am questioning your understanding of the process to identify spiritual master.

     >>you have NO PROOF of “ritvik priests” initiating on their own behalf

     Prabhupada performed the yajna during the first initiation ceremony that he conducted in New York. Was he not the priest at that time? What better proof do you need. I have mentioned this in my post.

     And Balaram Prabhu, you mean when Prabhupada used “amara ajna..” verse on may 28th, you meant shiksha gurus. So Prabhupada is telling on may 28th that “on my order you become shiksha gurus”. If that is the correct understanding, then most of the people here are arguing that the order will come in future. So Prabhupada will order in future that his disciples will become shiksha gurus. But you are telling that Prabhupada is ordering immediately to become shiksha gurus. So you have to accept at least one of the following two options in this scenario, that this order in amara ajna is not a future order but will be in action with immediate effect(as of now we may assume that it meant shiksha gurus).

     If not then you may have to say that if all others are correct then it means a future order. So if it is a future order, then do you not feel it ambiguous that Prabhupada is telling his disciples that they will become shiksha gurus in future when in effect they were already shiksha gurus because of their preaching so many newcomers? If we accept that the order was for immediate implementation, then we must analyze the conversation more properly. The conversation begins with the process of initiations particularly when Prabhupada is no longer with us. The discussion is about initiations and not about shiksha relationship. Then Prabhupada said “he is granddisciple” and he further says “disciple of my disciple”. After saying all this he means that the initiator is a shiksha guru. Is this not ambiguous? Does it not naturally mean that the initiator is a diksha guru?

     Reply
171. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     19. April 2013 at 4:49 pm

     Krishna das says: …Prabhupada said “He is granddisciple” and further “disciple of my disciple”.

     There you go again, quoting the May 28, 1977 conversation, even though that argument has been thoroughly defeated on this thread, over and over again. You are obviously grasping at straws, desperately trying to rationalize a multiple guru system within ISKCON, a system which was never authorized by Srila Prabhupada, and a system which has been proven to not work very well.

     We follow signed, written documents, such as the July 9, 1977 ritvik henceforward directive, not casual conversations, what to speak of the fact that July 9th comes after May 28th.

     1. Follow the Latest Order

     From a lecture by Śrīla Prabhupāda on the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Hyderabad, India, April 15, 1975:

     I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly, “Do it”, your first duty is to do that. You cannot argue, “Sir, you said me like this before.” No, that is not your duty. What I say now, you do it. That is obedience.

     If the captain of the ship says “5° starboard” and the first mate replies, “But captain, before you told me ‘10° port’.,” then it can be understood that the first mate has gone insane.

     (http://pratyatosa.com/?P=27#FollowTheLatestOrder)

     Reply
172. Puranjana das says:

     19. April 2013 at 4:57 pm

     A person who is giving diksha, i.e. pure divyam jnanam (di) which destroys or absorbs sins (ksha), has to be pure enough to do these things. Right now notice there is an epidemic of fallen, sick (and even dead) gurus in ISKCON claiming these problems developed since they “absorbed to many sins.” Jayatirtha’s fall down was claimed by his followers to be “because he absorbed too many sins.” OK, if one is not as pure as Jesus, one cannot absorb sins like him? Hello! The initiator has to be as pure as God, and clearly, we do not have this level of people at the moment. Therefore my question is, who is now qualified to absorb sins like Jesus — never gets answered? Can someone simply tell us, if there is such a person who is capable of giving pure divyam jnanam and absorbing sins like Jesus — who is that person? Otherwise its all academic (and a useless waste of time) speculation. ys pd

     Reply
173. mark says:

     19. April 2013 at 6:14 pm

     Krishna Das will continue for entire kalpas cherry picking and twisting the philosophy to defend his cheap trickster gurus, hoping to become their greatest cheerleader, and maybe one day, a bonafide fakeroo Diksa Gooroo himself. The ultimate prize.

     Have at it Kermit, I am done with you.

     Reply
174. bhakta jarek says:

     19. April 2013 at 8:57 pm

     “Spiritual master is not that a particular man is spiritual master. Spiritual master is a truth. So what is that truth? The truth is samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam **. The whole world is in the blaze of material pangs, threefold miseries. And a person who is authorized to deliver people from that material pangs, he is called spiritual master.”

     Sri Vyasa-puja — Hamburg, September 5, 1969

     “As God is one, similarly, guru is also one. There cannot be different gurus. Because God is one, how there can be different gurus? The principle of guru is one. The original guru is Krsna.”

     Arrival Lecture — San Francisco, July 15, 1975

     “guru cannot be two. Mind that. The person may be different, but the message is the same. Therefore guru is one.

     The Vedic instruction is, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Gurum eva, “one must.” Eva means “must.” Abhigacchet, this verb is used when there is the sense of “must.” It never says “Go to a guru,” but he says “Must approach the guru.” Guru is one. Guru cannot be two. Gurum evabhigacchet. And we see also, practically, in the disciplic succession of guru, the same thing is spoken by the guru. Same thing. Repetition of the same subject matter, no other.”

     Lecture: What is a Guru? — London, August 22, 1973

     “The spiritual master can be present wherever the disciples wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”

     – Srila Prabhupada letter — May 28, 1968
     Ritivk vadis are mayas agents!

     Reply
175. Amar Puri says:

     19. April 2013 at 11:05 pm

     Puranjana Prabhu writes ; ” Can someone simply tell us, if there is such a person who is capable of giving pure divyam jnanam and absorbing sins like Jesus — who is that person? ”

     That Person is none other than HDG. Srila Prabhupada. How he is present ? He is present via His Murti in the Temple, Picture on His Transcendental Books and His Sound vibration via His VANI, Instructions etc. etc. etc. as it has been brought repeatedly in this discussions.

     But for certain class of people who loves very much living gurus of all gradation in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon, Srila Prabhupada’s Murti, Picture and His Instructions are not acceptable and therefore, these people totally disobey Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions justifying with all kinds of twisted reasons with the motive to protect and promote the vested interest of the so called authority of the living gurus of all gradation for their respective SELF satisfaction ALL in the name of rendering service to HDG. Srila Prabhupada in the Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon while He is present Himself in the Temple, Picture on His Books, in His Instructions as He instructs clearly Himself in His VANI.

     That is why Srila Prabhupada left no room for any unauthorized person to be His successor in the Iskcon world wide. What more clearly any sane / gentle person can find any other Instructions except following what Srila Prabhupada wants for His followers to continue the preaching mission to make one’s life sublime.

     For those Living Guru lovers and their followers, please be known that all these gurus must start their own respective Institutions and become Self Effulgent like Srila Prabhupada in order to give DIKSHA to their followers not in the Iskcon of Srila Prabhupada because Srila Prabhupada is present as He INSTRUCTS clearly in his VANI.

     Hope this meets satisfactory.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     OM TAT SAT.

     Reply
176. Balaram das says:

     20. April 2013 at 6:17 am

     Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master…
     Srila Prabhupada letter to Mukunda..10th June 1969.

     “The answer to your Istagosthi questions are as follows: Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance. And who is a liberated person? One who knows Krishna. It is stated in BG, fourth chapter, anyone who knows Krishna in truth is immediately liberated, and after quitting the present body, he immediately goes to Krishna. That means he becomes a resident of Krishna Loka. As soon as one is liberated he is immediately a resident of Krishna Loka, and anyone who knows the truth of Krishna can become Spiritual Master. That is the version of Lord Caitanya. So to summarize the whole thing, it is to be understood that a bona fide Spiritual Master is a resident of Krishna Loka…

     …There are three kinds of liberated persons. They are called 1) sadhan siddha, 2) kripa siddha, and 3) nitya siddha. Sadhan siddha means one who has attained perfection by executing the regulative principles of devotional service. Kripa siddha means one who has attained perfection by the special mercy of Krishna and the Spiritual Master, and nitya siddha means one who was never contaminated…

     …You are correct when you say that when the Spiritual Master speaks it should be taken that Krishna is speaking. That is a fact. A Spiritual Master must be liberated. It does not matter if he has come from Krishna Loka or he is liberated from here. But he must be liberated. The science of how one is liberated is explained above, but when one is liberated, there is no need of distinction whether he has come directly from Krishna Loka or from the material world. But in the broader sense everyone comes from Krishna Loka. When one forgets Krishna he is conditioned, when one remembers Krishna he is liberated. I hope this will clear up these points.”

     Letter to: Mukunda — New Vrindaban 10 June, 1969

     Reply
177. mark says:

     20. April 2013 at 5:31 pm

     Very true Amar.

     The irony is that the Kali Chela gurus make a show of agreeing with what you say once a year when they “make a vyasa puja offering” to Srila Prabhupada.

     And of course DAILY in some temples, after instructing different standards than the Founder-Acarya ordered, and reading from books that have the founder’s name and face upon it that no longer represent His ideas, they then turn to his murti and pretend to honor Him.

     Without batting an eye, with big fake fanatic smiles upon their faces.

     And their brain dead robotic minions come into forums like this and repeat the same defeated arguments over and over as if none of us remember the time we defeated them.

     They are so dull they will offer such evidence as…

     “The spiritual master can be present wherever the disciples wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body.”

     – Srila Prabhupada letter — May 28, 1968

     But in the next breath claim that the Spiritual Master cannot possibly arrange to initiate disciples on the recommendation of other disciples who perform the yajna and formalities, without EVER seeing them or meeting them, even though that is what he was doing FOR YEARS.

     Because, for these cheaters that quote from the May 28th 1968 letter means that since the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple WANTS, if they don’t WANT him to be present somewhere, then he is simply forgotten as they see fit.

     Truly pathetic. What is worse is that they CANNOT possibly stop coming back and repeating the same defeated arguments, because they have not a shred of humility, not even enough to sit on the tip of a pin.

     Just watch. One of these fools will be back straightaway to further embarrass himself. It is a sorry sight.

     Hare Krsna

     Reply
178. SG says:

     21. April 2013 at 3:48 am

     The issue on hand is not about practical devotional services that
     both the Iskcon and the Ritviks are performing in their daily lives.
     Chanting 16 rounds of the Hare Krsna Mantra or more daily, waking up
     early at 4.00 am to prepare for deity worship, tulsi worship, guru
     worship, class on S/B etc. etc. book distributions etc.

     THE ISSUE IS GURU AND INITIATION
     ***********************************************************************************

     1. Iskcon GBC is appointing Gurus for the purpose of performing
     initiation. Srila Prabhupada did not tell them that appointing
     gurus was part of the responsibilities. Gurus appointed by GBC
     are controlled and under of their thumb. They are not independent.
     They have to follow GBC’s orders. If GBC says jump they have to
     jump. If GBC says sit, they have to sit. If GBC says shut your mouth
     up, the gurus have to shut up and keep quiet or they get kicked out.
     These are the gurus under GBC. They are not independent. They are not
     the servant of the servant of Sri Krsna. They are the servant of
     Iskcon’s GBC. And as 40 plus gurus fallen from grace in Iskcon shows
     most of these people (Gurus) are not qualified.

     2. Ritviks on the other hand have accepted Srila Prabhupada as their
     living guru. They say that Srila Prabhupada has said that after his
     departure from this planet he has instructed that they are to continue
     to perform initiation on his behalf via ritvik and that he is still
     their living guru and the initiated becomes his disciple hence this
     POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION concoction being introduced by them.
     The argument with the ritviks is that they have no sastric evidence
     (SASTRA) or examples or instructions from previous acaryas (SADHU) or
     such an instruction from Srila Prabhupada (GURU). Their only said evidence
     is the July 9th 1977 letter that Srila Prabhupada issued to perform 1st
     and 2nd initiation while he was present. In that letter it does not say
     the instruction must continue after his departure. His last line of instruction
     on that letter was to sent all initiated names to him (SRILA PRABHUPADA)
     to be recorded in his initiated disciple book.

     If the ritviks want to claim that POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION IS AN
     AUTHORIZED PRACTICE then present direct proof or evidence where it clearly
     states that such a practice is authorized in the proper order of SASTRA,
     SADHU, GURU. Then everyone will know that the ritviks’ practice (POST SAMADHI
     RITVIK INITIATION) on behalf of a dearly departed guru is authorized.

     For example in the Caitanya Caritamrita when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said,

     “Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or
     the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation.
     The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.”

     And to this Srila Prabhupada quoted sastric evidence and explained why the
     purascarya regulative principles and initiation are required and was introduced
     in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

     Similarly, the ritviks should also explain and put forward their proof or
     evidence to support their performing of POST SAMADHI RITVIK INITIATION on
     behalf of a departed guru and claiming that they are his disciples, as proper
     and authorized, just as how Srila Prabhupada has done.

     Simply making noise like a camels and declaring to the world that the ritviks
     have defeated all arguments is not evidence. That is the display of one’s ego
     and arrogance, lack of intelligence and immaturity.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
179. Mahesh Raja says:

     21. April 2013 at 2:24 pm

     SG you are talking of WHO conducts MERE FORMALITIES of 1st and 2nd Initiation.
     Ritvik Initiation is about conducting these FORMALITIES of 1st and 2nd initiations on BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada this has been explained in detail many many many times and the ACTUAL person who GIVES DIKSA is Srila Prabhupada. Regards WHOSE disciple one is Srila Prabhupada has GIVEN ALL the DISCIPLINE 16 rounds, 4 Regs, ALL his books , tapes, cds so NATURALLY the DISCIPLE belongs to ONE WHO GIVES DISCIPLINE : Srila Prabhupada.

     “Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement
     with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method
     of one acarya may be different than that of another, but the ultimate goal
     is never neglected.”
     (Sri Chaitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7:37,purport)

     “An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform
     to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krsna consciousness
     may be spread.”
     (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta,Adi-lila,7.31-32,purport)

     Note: The formalities may be slightly changed here and there to make them
     Vaisnavas.” “Srimad Viraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of
     the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or
     conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated
     according to circumstances. The formalities may be slightly changed here and there
     to make them Vaisnavas.”
     (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4:8:54,purport)

     Note: Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and
     admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
     761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement?
     Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
     Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break)
     …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge,
     and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

     The 1st and 2nd initiations are FORMALITIES when Srila Prabhupada introduced
     Ritvik System this does not mean that anything changed in terms of giving Diksa
     as per SB 10.2.18 where Krsna is TRANSFERED in a pure devotees heart :

     Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana
     means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa –
     manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana
     is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna.
     Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have…
     We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community,
     servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many.
     “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from
     this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART
     from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow
     (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP
     (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions
     of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya.
     All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees
     take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take
     shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material
     attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the
     transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi,
     the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the
     eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental
     mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then
     there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is
     UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap. This is why In Guru Puja
     to Srila Prabhupada we sing Janme janme prabhu sei:

     760805BG.PAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are
     singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**.
     ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada is WITH US TO GUIDE US through difficult journey of transmigration
     cycle to attaining Back to Godhead IF we follow him. Bilvamangal Thakura’s Spiritual master
     came thru a prostitute to deliver him so Srila Prabhupada is also SO POWERFUL to help us:

     SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
     IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one
     should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was
     transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of
     Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by
     the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance
     of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT
     PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF
     GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD
     WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.

     Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
     Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE
     MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING
     BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under
     the control of the devotee’s love.

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     WHEN I order
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Become Guru by Order, That’s All
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ritvik – **Representative**
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ritvik System Is Bonafide
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Formalities
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Brahmana (Kanistha)
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     The rescuer must be liberated
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Tattva-darsinah
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     He is not a liberated person
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)

     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Disciplic Succession
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Satyam – Truthfulness
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
     http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
     http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)

     http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     CON Trick from the Bogus GBC
     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34797#more-34797

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada poisoned:

     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/Prabhupada998.pdf

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
180. Puranjana das says:

     21. April 2013 at 4:38 pm

     Dear SG: The “proof” that accepting Srila Prabhupada as the current guru is a working idea is simple, all kinds of people are worshiping him all over the world and they are advancing in spiritual life under this process. They are now worshiping Krishna and reading Srila Prabhupada’s books etc., when they were not doing this formerly, what more “proof” do we need that this is a good idea?

     And in sum, our Prabhupadanugas program is expanding. We are gaining more centers, more devotees, and so on and so forth.

     What baffles me about you type of folks is (A) you are agreeing that the GBC program is crumbling, that there are rats and bed bug infesting more than several of their temples, that the city authority is shutting down some of their kitchens, actually in more than several cases, due to code violations (because there is no money to fix the code problems). There are — in more than several cases — huge problems paying the electric bill etc., and there are even cases where their cows were sent to slaughter because there was no money to care for them. And now Niranjana is admitting he has neglected Boston temple because he is too busy hanging out in Poland, so he is letting all this happen intentionally, and so forth. Hence — their program is dying out. OK we all agree, their idea is dying on the vine.

     Then you say our program, which is growing, and which is having no problem here paying for our local Prabhupadanuga temple, and paying for the electrical bill here with our temple etc., is also bogus because “its not found in shastra.” OK so you also want to shut down our program. And this will leave us with your idea which is (c) shut the GBC down, and shut us down, and shut everything down, and then — we will have nothing at all?

     Then you wonder why no one is in favor of your proposal and process? Because it is mayavada and sunnyavada. Your idea is that — “nothing” — is better than what the GBC is doing, or what we are doing. This is mayavada. You will have the Titanic (ISKCON) sink, and now you want the lifeboats to sink, there will be no survivors at all? What kind of proposal is that? You are not presenting a working model of what we should do instead? You just want everyone else to stop. Sounds like very sour grapes indeed. ys pd

     Reply
181. Mahesh Raja says:

     21. April 2013 at 8:41 pm

     Puranjan Prabhu here is the quote about sahajiya impersonalists who can not give their Gurus name:

     72-07-14. Letter: Bhavananda
     One thing, on the invitation card you have written All Glories to Our Guru Maharaja. This is impersonalism. As soon as we offer obeisances to guru, the name should be there. We are strictly personalists. The sahajiya’s, they write Glories to Guru. Why you are learning this impersonalism, who has taught you? Daily I am offering obeisances to my Guru by vibrating his real name, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, otherwise it is impersonal.

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Folks like Rocana, SG, George A Smith,Dusyant, etc they have a common platform they can NOT accept Srila Prabhupada can GIVE Diksa anymore. For these sort of folks FORMALITY initiations is the ONLY thing in THEIR life. Mere FORMALITY initiation is NOT the end. Realization of SVARUPA siddhi is something of a feat that we ALL HAVE TO come to. Srila Prabhupada is GIVING the PROCESS one simply has to imbibe the INSTRUCTIONS and BE DISCIPLINED BY THOSE INSTRUCTIONS. Thus taking SHELTER of Srila Prabhupada’s DISCIPLINE one is DELIVERED by Srila Prabhupada.

     They can NOT understand that we are ALL going to have to take many births to come to the platform of PURE devotee. Janme Janme Prabhu sei this means Srila Prabhupada is OUR DELIVERER thru the transmigration UNTIL we become a PURE DEVOTEE.

     Note: the FORMALITY INITIATION of giving Holy Name on Behalf of Srila Prabhupada and fire sacrifice are just SYSTEM OF MANAGEMENT issues: That is not very important thing
     761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
     Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

     )Srila Prabhupada gives Divya-jnana(DIKSA). Divya means TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.

     760711CC.NY Lectures
     Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.

     When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.

     Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
     The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.

     Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap. This is why In Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada we sing Janme janme prabhu sei:

     760805BG.PAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.

     Note: Srila Prabhupada is WITH US TO GUIDE US through difficult journey of transmigration cycle to attaining Back to Godhead IF we follow him. Bilvamangal Thakura’s Spiritual master came thru a prostitute to deliver him so Srila Prabhupada is also SO POWERFUL to help us:

     SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
     IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.

     SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
     As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
     Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
     Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
     Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA

     SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
     The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE
     TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.

     Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.
     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER LATER ON.

     760805BG.PAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: Yes, that arrangement will be done, you go on with your business. We are singing this song daily. Why do you forget? Cakhu-dan dilo jei **janme janme prabhu sei**. ONE WHO HAS OPENED THE EYES, **HE’LL REMAIN MY MASTER LIFE AFTER LIFE**.

     SB 3.15.24 P Description of the Kingdom of God
     IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE, but in the human form one should at least understand the goal of life and begin Krsna consciousness.

     Common-sense:
     If Srila Prabhupada can NOT give Diksa anymore then it follows that they will NEVER ever get Krsna in their heart so their SVARUPA (constitutional position) will NEVER be revealed to them. Stay here in the material world – enjoy! Many many ,many, many creations will come and go in many many Universes they can take their births again and again and again. If they do NOT want Srila Prabhupada’s shelter then Krsna will deny them. Simple logic.

     Diksa is PROCESS it is NOT simply FORMALITY of 1st and 2nd Initiations. In the DIKSA PROCESS you have to ENDEAVOUR to come to PURE DEVOTEE STAGE.

     Coming to the PURE DEVOTEE stage requires that ONE BEGINS from Kanistha Stage. Kanistha stage means ONE IS BRAHMANA:

     Brahmana means ONE IS HONEST. Without being TRUTHFUL the QUALIFICATION of Brahmana HOW can ANYONE progress?

     770214r2.may Conversations

     Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a QUALIFIED brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.

     arcayam eva haraye
     pujam yah sraddhayehate
     na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
     sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah

     The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. AND BELOW THE BRAHMANA THERE IS NO QUESTION OF VAISNAVA.

     760206mw.may Conversations

     Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
     Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare.
     Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
     Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
     Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
     Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.

     SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service

     The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA , OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.

     Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science

     PURPORT
     This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:

     dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
     amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
     yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
     vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya

     “A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”

     Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:

     samo damas tapah saucam
     ksantir arjavam eva ca
     jnanam vijnanam astikyam
     brahma-karma svabhava-jam

     “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)

     In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:

     samo damas tapah saucam
     ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
     jnana-vijnana-santosah
     satyastikye dvisad gunah

     “Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.

     I am not the body is a very good slogan but when someone is sarcastic towards my body, mind, intelligence – then – I am the body. Then we dispatch our anger on the opponent. Contrast that with below:

     “730828BG.LON Lectures

     So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati.

     “THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH.” Srila Prabhupada KNEW that they were NOT EVEN on KANISTHA platform this is the significance of why he used “MAY BE”. Otherwise Srila Prabhupada would have used ARE instead. They were NOT truthful AND were disobedient to Guru – this is lack of Brahminical quality – how can they be EVEN Kanistha adhikari?

     74-04-28. Letter: Rupanuga

     You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, AT LEAST HE EXECUTES THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.

     Note: Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and
     admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
     761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement?
     Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
     Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break)
     …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge,
     and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

     68-09-20. Letter: Satsvarupa
     Our relationship is eternal. But if somebody lags behind, so in spite of our eternal relationship one may not meet other at the destination. Just like a flock of birds–although very intimately related, everyone of them has to fly in the sky by individual strength. If one is less strong, the other cannot keep him in the sky. That is the law of nature. So long everyone of us is strong in Krishna Consciousness, there is no doubt, you can fly in the spiritual sky and meet together without failure. Therefore, individual strength is most important.

     Note: MERE FORMALITY 1st and 2nd Initiation is NOT going to get ANYONE back to Godhead.
     If as Rocana etc thinks that Srila Prabhupada no longer gives Diksa then HOW is he going to get REVEALATION of SVARUPA siddhi? According to his logic Srila Prabhupada is in now in Samadhi so Diksa is finished. That means he has NO CHANCE . HOW can he have SVARUPA siddhi (his constitutional form of servant of Krsna) when he says Srila Prabhupada can no longer give Diksa?

     SB 1.2.17 T Divinity and Divine Service

     Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma [Supersoul] in everyone’s heart and the benefactor of the TRUTHFUL devotee,

     Note: The situation is ETHER one is TRUTHFUL or he does NOT make it . Best ACCEPT Srila Prabhupada’s RITVIK System ORDER of July 9th 1977 NOW or face the CONSEQUENCE.

     69-07-11. Letter: Jayapataka
     And anyone who defies and therefore disconnects the relationship with the Spiritual Master can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.

     Note: July 9th 1977 is not simply a piece of paper IT IS SRILA PRABHUPADA :
     690113LE.LA Lectures
     Arcye sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir. Just like the statue of Krsna, to consider that “This is a stone…” Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the spiritual master, vibration. What we have heard from the spiritual master, that is living.

     Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
     There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.

     “We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”

     Reply
182. Mahesh Raja says:

     21. April 2013 at 8:59 pm

     Note: the ANTI Rivik folks think they can get out of this universe so easy – it is not so simple. We have been in many different CREATIONS the ONLY shelter is Srila Prabhupada OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU:

     740806SB.VRN Lectures
     Therefore it is said in the Caitanya-caritamrta, nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti. Nitya-siddha means eternally perfect. It is not that we are artificially acquiring this krsna-bhakti. No, it is not artificial. It is natural. This is actual fact. So we are simply… Because our present, in the present material condition, our heart is covered with so much garbage of different types of body… Just like all of a sudden something comes to your mind. It has no connection. Just like a bubble, comes out. BECAUSE SO MANY DIRTY THINGS ARE RESERVED ON ACCOUNT OF OUR MATERIAL CONDITIONAL LIFE FOR MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS. Anadi karama-phale padi’ bhavarnava-jale. Anadi, we cannot… ANADI MEANS… ADI MEANS THE CREATION. SO BEFORE THIS CREATION. BHUTVA BHUTVA PRALIYATE. WE ARE IN THIS MATERIAL CONTAMINATION NOT THAT IN THIS MILLENNIUM–BEFORE THAT. JUST LIKE MILLENNIUM AFTER MILLENNIUM. NARADA MUNI WAS SPEAKING HIS LIFE BEFORE THIS MILLENNIUM. SO ANADI. ANADI MEANS CREATION. BUT NOT ONLY ONE CREATION, SEVERAL CREATIONS, WE ARE FORGOTTEN, OR WE ARE IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha… We are searching after material comfort, material comfort, sense gratification, in so many ways. So anadi karama-phale padi’ bhavarnava-jale, taribare na dekhi upaya. In this way we are going.

     Reply
183. Mahesh Raja says:

     21. April 2013 at 10:34 pm

     Note: What is happening today in ISKCON today is the so-called sannyasis are amassing money for their OWN sense gratification so they are going to take the resultant REACTION (FRUITIVE RESULTS) THIS MEANS TAKING A BIRTH IN THE MATERIAL WORLD TO SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR KARMA. Sannyasa as Srila Prabhupada directed does NOT TAKE anything for himself this is why he is Karma free.

     741122SB.BOM Lectures
     So tyakta-karma. Sannyasi means tyakta-karmanas tyakta-svajana-bandhavah. You cannot give up karma if you live with your relatives, svajana, and bandhavah, society, friendship and love. If you live, then you cannot give up karma. You have to do, either karma or vikarma. But if you become sannyasi, then you become akarma. Whatever you do, it is for Krsna, and there is no reaction. Yajnarthe karmano ‘nyatra karma-bandhanah. Karma is bandhanah. Vikarma is bandhanah, but akarma is not bandhanah. Bandhanah means bondage. So we have to act for Krsna. Yajnarthe. Yajna means Krsna. Yajna means Visnu. But people… Prahlada Maharaja said, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum: “These ordinary men, they do not know that their ultimate destination of life is to go back to Visnu, go back to home, back to Godhead.” Na te viduh. Why they do not know? Durasaya. Their hope is dur, very, I mean to say, what is called?

     Madhya 3.70 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’ s Stay at the House of Advaita Acarya
     The word upakarana indicates a variety of foods, such as dal, vegetables and other varieties of possible dishes that one can eat very nicely with rice. It is not proper, however, for a sannyasi to eat such palatable dishes. If he did so, he would not be able to control his senses. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not encourage sannyasis to eat very palatable dishes, for the whole Vaisnava cult is vairagya-vidya, as renounced as possible. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also advised Raghunatha dasa Gosvami not to eat very palatable dishes, wear very nice garments or talk on mundane subjects. These things are all prohibited for those in the renounced order. A devotee does not accept anything to eat that is not first offered to Krsna. All the rich foods offered to Krsna are given to the grhasthas, the householders.

     Note: keep body and soul together – means FRUGALLY.
     Antya 8.85 Ramacandra Puri Criticizes the Lord
     “For a sannyasi to indulge in satisfying the tongue is a great offense. The duty of a sannyasi is to eat only as much as needed to keep body and soul together.

     Note:Thus by eating frugally and fasting she conquered her senses, and as soon as her senses were controlled, symptoms of love of Godhead appeared in her person.

     “Antya 3.141 The Glories of Srila Haridasa Thakura
     She worshiped the tulasi plant, following in the footsteps of her spiritual master. Instead of eating regularly, she chewed whatever food she received as alms, and if nothing was supplied she would fast. Thus by eating frugally and fasting she conquered her senses, and as soon as her senses were controlled, symptoms of love of Godhead appeared in her person.

     Note:The effect of controlling the mind is that one automatically follows the dictation of the Paramatma or Supersoul. Because this transcendental position is at once achieved by one who is in Krsna consciousness, the devotee of the Lord is unaffected by the dualities of material existence, namely distress and happiness, cold and heat, etc. This state is practical samadhi, or absorption in the Supreme.

     Bg 6.7 T Sankhya-yoga
     jitatmanah prasantasya
     paramatma samahitah
     sitosna-sukha-duhkhesu
     tatha manapamanayoh

     TRANSLATION
     For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached, for he has attained tranquility. To such a man happiness and distress, heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.

     PURPORT
     Actually, every living entity is intended to abide by the dictation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated in everyone’s heart as Paramatma. When the mind is misled by the external illusory energy, one becomes entangled in material activities. Therefore, as soon as one’s mind is controlled through one of the yoga systems, one is to be considered as having already reached the destination. One has to abide by superior dictation. When one’s mind is fixed on the superior nature, he has no other alternative but to follow the dictation of the Supreme. The mind must admit some superior dictation and follow it. The effect of controlling the mind is that one automatically follows the dictation of the Paramatma or Supersoul. Because this transcendental position is at once achieved by one who is in Krsna consciousness, the devotee of the Lord is unaffected by the dualities of material existence, namely distress and happiness, cold and heat, etc. This state is practical samadhi, or absorption in the Supreme.

     Note: ISKCON we see the NOT sannyasis BUT SEX-yasis and SIN-yasis they even change their FORMER names. Srila Prabhupada used to just add SWAMI to the names.

     SB 1.6.13 P Conversation Between Narada and Vyasadeva
     It is the duty of a mendicant (parivrajakacarya) to experience all varieties of God’s creation by traveling alone through all forests, hills, towns, villages, etc., to gain faith in God and strength of mind as well as to enlighten the inhabitants with the message of God. A sannyasi is duty-bound to take all these risks without fear, and the most typical sannyasi of the present age is Lord Caitanya, who traveled in the same manner through the central Indian jungles, enlightening even the tigers, bears, snakes, deer, elephants and many other jungle animals. In this age of Kali, sannyasa is forbidden for ordinary men. One who changes his dress to make propaganda is a different man from the original ideal sannyasi. One should, however, take the vow to stop social intercourse completely and devote life exclusively to the service of the Lord. The change of dress is only a formality. Lord Caitanya did not accept the name of a sannyasi, and in this age of Kali the so-called sannyasis should not change their former names, following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya.

     Note: these so-called “gurus” demons in ISKCON are going to reap their karma for usurping PURE VAISNAVA BRAHMANA Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, temples properties, changing his books when they take their next body THAT IS FOR SURE:

     SB 4.29.73 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
     It is sometimes said that because a child is innocent he is completely pure. Actually this is not the fact. The effects of fruitive activities reserved in the subtle body appear in three concurrent stages. One is called bija (the root), another is called kuta-stha (the desire), and another is called phalonmukha (about to fructify). The manifest stage is called prarabdha (already in action). In a conscious or unconscious state, the actions of the subtle or gross bodies may not be manifest, but such states cannot be called the liberated state. A child may be innocent, but this does not mean that he is a liberated soul. Everything is held in reservation, and everything will become manifest in due course of time. Even in the absence of certain manifestations in the subtle body, the objects of sense enjoyment may act. The example has been given of a nocturnal emission, in which the physical senses act even when the physical objects are not manifest. The three modes of material nature may not be manifest in the subtle body, but the contamination of the three modes remains conserved, and in due course of time, it becomes manifest. Even if the reactions of the subtle and gross bodies are not manifest, one does not become free from the material conditions. Therefore it is wrong to say that a child is as good as a liberated soul.

     740927SB.CAL Lectures
     But people are doing that. Without being followed by the acarya, without being followed by the sastras, they become guru, they become swami, they become yogi. It is useless. You cannot get… Here are the process, process is given: tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama… Tada means when you are fixed up in devotional service, then you can get out of these infections. These are infections. In… It is so dangerous infection. Infection, anyone can understand nowadays, scientific days. If you infect some disease, you have to suffer. You cannot escape. You infect today somehow or other. Not today, not tomorrow, but some day it will come out. It is called kutastha, phalonmukha, prarabdha, papa-bija. Papa-bija, remains as seed, kutastha. Then it is fructifying, phalonmukha. Then you suffer, prarabdha. This is called prarabdha-karma, infection.
     You are under the complete subjugation of nature. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah. These gunaih. The prakrti is forcing you to work because you have infected a kind of guna. Karanam guna-sango ‘sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Karanam. Why one man is born, one living entity is born as a very rich man and one is born as a dog? Sad-asad-yoni. Yoni means mother, and bija means father. Yatha yoni yatha bijah. So the every living entity is born–bija and yoni, father and mother. So why there are varieties? Nature is working. Why not one, one kind of living entities? No. Sad-asad-janma-yonisu. There are 8,400,000 of species. One has to take. Tatha dehantara-praptih. You have to change. But why one is in the lower grade birth, why in the higher grade? Now, karanam guna-sango ‘sya. These guna. These guna, sattva-guna, rajo-guna.

     721106ND.VRN Lectures
     Pradyumna: “It is stated in the Padma-Purana that there are four kinds of effects to sinful activities, which are listed as follows: (1) the effect which is not yet fructified, (2) the effect which is lying as seed, (3) the effect which is already mature, and (4) the effect which is almost mature. It is also stated that all these four effects…”
     Prabhupada: Kuta-stha-bija, prarabdha… Like that. This is, these are the… Our effects. Just like we can understand in the modern… Just like if you infect some disease, it becomes immediately kuta-stha. Kuta-stha means stocked. In due course of time, it will come out, manifest. Similarly, we are acting so many sinful activities. Sometimes they complain that “This man is committing so many sinful activities, but he’s happy.” But actually he’s enjoying the effects of his past something pious. Now he’s happy, but that effect of the impious activities, that is in stock. It will come out in due course of time. That is called kuta-stha. Kuta-stha phalonmukha, prarabdha. These are the Sanskrit language. That is being explained here.

     Note: next body lizards, snakes : of these demons who usurped Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa guru position and stole his disciples, temples, properties, changed his books:
     KB 64 The Story of King Nrga
     At this time, Lord Krsna was present among His relatives who were members of the ksatriya class. To teach them through the exemplary character of King Nrga, He said: “Even though a ksatriya king may be as powerful as fire, it is not possible for him to usurp the property of a brahmana and utilize it for his own purpose. If this is so, how can ordinary kings, who falsely think of themselves the most powerful beings within the material world, usurp a brahmana’s property? I do not think that taking poison is as dangerous as taking a brahmana’s property. For ordinary poison there is treatment–one can be relieved from its effects; but if one drinks the poison of taking a brahmana’s property, there is no remedy for the mistake. The perfect example was King Nrga. He was very powerful and very pious, but due to the small mistake of unknowingly usurping a brahmana’s cow, he was condemned to the abominable life of a lizard. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; but the arani fire ignited by the spiritual potency of a brahmana can burn to ashes the whole family of a person who provokes such a brahmana.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “If someone even touches a brahmana’s property, he is ruined for three generations. However, if a brahmana’s property is forcibly taken away, the taker’s family for ten generations before him and for ten generations after him will be subject to ruination. On the other hand, if someone becomes a Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will become liberated.”
     Lord Krsna continued: “If some foolish king who is puffed up by his wealth, prestige and power wants to usurp a brahmana’s property, it should be understood that such a king is clearing his path to hell; he does not know how much he has to suffer for such unwise action. If someone takes away the property of a very liberal brahmana who is encumbered by a large dependent family, then such a usurper is put into the hell known as Kumbhipaka; not only is he put into this hell, but his family members also have to accept such a miserable condition of life. A person who takes away property which has either been awarded to a brahmana or given away by him is condemned to live for at least 60,000 years as miserably as an insect in stool. Therefore I instruct you, all My boys and relatives present here, do not, even by mistake, take the possession of a brahmana and thereby pollute your whole family. If someone even wishes to possess such property, let alone attempts to take it away by force, the duration of his life will be reduced. He will be defeated by his enemies, and after being bereft of his royal position, when he gives up his body he will become a serpent. A serpant gives trouble to all other living entities. My dear boys and relatives, I therefore advise you that even if a brahmana becomes angry with you and calls you by ill names or cuts you, still you should not retaliate. On the contrary, you should smile, tolerate him and offer your respects to the brahmana. You know very well that even I Myself offer My obeisances to the brahmanas with great respect three times daily. You should therefore follow My instruction and example. I shall not forgive anyone who does not follow them, and I shall punish him. You should learn from the example of King Nrga that even if someone unknowingly usurps the property of a brahmana, he is put into a miserable condition of life.”

     SB 5.5.5 Lord Rsabhadeva’ s Teachings to His Sons

     karmatmakam yena sarira-bandhah

     Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmatmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear, and as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he HAS to accept a material body.

     Reply
184. Mahesh Raja says:

     21. April 2013 at 11:16 pm

     Note: the bogus ISKCONS so-called “gurus” and their gang think that they have got everything by getting rid of Srila Prabhupada by giving him poison. They think that by usurping Srila Prabhupada’s Diksa guru position, changing his books, getting rid of Ritvik System,taking over his temples, taking his disciples they are happy:

     Sometimes they complain that “This man is committing so many sinful activities, but he’s happy.” But actually he’s enjoying the effects of his past something pious. Now he’s happy, but that effect of the impious activities, that is in stock. It will come out in due course of time. That is called kuta-stha.

     721106ND.VRN Lectures
     Pradyumna: “It is stated in the Padma-Purana that there are four kinds of effects to sinful activities, which are listed as follows: (1) the effect which is not yet fructified, (2) the effect which is lying as seed, (3) the effect which is already mature, and (4) the effect which is almost mature. It is also stated that all these four effects…”
     Prabhupada: Kuta-stha-bija, prarabdha… Like that. This is, these are the… Our effects. Just like we can understand in the modern… Just like if you infect some disease, it becomes immediately kuta-stha. Kuta-stha means stocked. In due course of time, it will come out, manifest. Similarly, we are acting so many sinful activities. Sometimes they complain that “This man is committing so many sinful activities, but he’s happy.” But actually he’s enjoying the effects of his past something pious. Now he’s happy, but that effect of the impious activities, that is in stock. It will come out in due course of time. That is called kuta-stha. Kuta-stha phalonmukha, prarabdha. These are the Sanskrit language. That is being explained here. Go on.

     721106ND.VRN Lectures
     Pradyumna: “It is also stated that all these four effects become immediately vanquished for those who surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, and become engaged in His devotional service in full Krsna consciousness.”
     Prabhupada: Yes. This, these four kinds of stages of sinful activities, in stock, almost fructified, manifest, all the stages of sinful activities can be immediately nullified. Because it is assured by Krsna, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami. It is not imagination. If we believe in the words of Krsna, then there is no question of denying this fact. Krsna personally says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksa… Sarva-papebhyo. The kuta-stha, phalonmukha, prarabdha, everything, it become immediately nullified, simply by this process, by surrendering: “Krsna, I, I was mistaken. I got…, forgot your mastership; You are my eternal Lord. So I was bewildered. I was wandering. Now I have come to my senses. I surrender unto You sincerely. You accept me.” This very thing will give you immediately protection from all sinful activities. Krsna says,

     sarva-dharman parityajya
     mam ekam saranam vraja
     aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
     moksayisyami…

     So where is the difficulty? Let us surrender to Krsna and execute His will, whatever He… Surrender means I must be prepared to execute the will of Krsna; not my whims, but Krsna’s will. The Krsna’s will is that you become Krsna’s devotee. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Where is the difficulty? You surrender unto Him, and He assures, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. Immediately he becomes relieved from the effects of illusory energy. So there is no difficulty, not at all difficulty. Let us immediately become surrendered to Krsna’s lotus feet. Think of Him always. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah, to become His devotee, always think of Him. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. “Always worship Me. Always offer obeisances.” These are the four principles. Anyone can do it. There is no restriction for any caste, creed, nation. Everyone. It is open to the human being. So if we actually want to be happy, we must take to Krsna consciousness. There is no alternative. That is our point. Yes? Go on.
     Pradyumna: “Those effects described as ‘almost mature’ refer to the distress from which one is suffering at present, and the effects ‘lying as seed’ means that in the core of the heart there is a certain stock of sinful desires which are like seeds. The Sanskrit word kutam means that they are almost ready to produce the seed, or the effect of the seed. And ‘immature effect’ refers to the case where the seedling has not begun. From this statement of Padma-Purana it is understood that material contamination is very subtle. Its beginning, its fruition and results, and how one suffers such results in the form of distress, are part of a great chain. When one catches some disease, it is very…, it is often very difficult to ascertain the cause of the disease, where it originated and how it is maturing. The suffering of a disease, however, does not appear all of a sudden. It actually takes time. And, as in the medical field, for precaution’s sake, the doctor injects a vaccination to prevent the growing of contamination, similarly, the practical injection to stop all the fructifications of the seeds of our sinful activities is simply engagement in Krsna consciousness.”
     Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness. This is the best injection. Take this injection and become free from all sinful reactions

     Note: what we are enjoying, that is due to our pious activities in the past.
     720904IN.NV classes
     Drdha-vratah: “firm determination.” That kinds of devotional life is possible only when one is completely free from the resultant action of sinful activity, yesam tv anta-gatah. Anta-gatah: “one who has finished.” We are suffering and enjoying in this life. So, what we are enjoying, that is due to our pious activities in the past. Just like in our daily business, if you have to take some money from somebody, that is your income. And if you have to pay somebody that is your expenditure. Two things are going on. You cannot expect here in this material world simply income. There must be expenditure. So two things, they are known as sukha and duhkha Sukha means “happiness” and duhkha means “distress.” So, as Prahlada Maharaja says, that this sukha and duhkha–happiness and distress–is already destined. And soon as I get a certain type of body, my life’s happiness and distresses are fixed up. That’s all–you cannot change it. That is called destiny. But, the atma is–although encaged within this body–is always separated, apart from. Just like I give you so many examples: that a dog–the body is dog’s body–it must be as dog. But even a dog can be made a devotee–it doesn’t matter. Because he has got the body of a dog it does not mean that he cannot remain a devotee. It can be trained. As you train the dog how to bite others, at night, so you can train the dog also how to become devotee. Therefore this is training. This child is being trained up from the beginning of his birth, in the association of devotees. So if it is possible for one child, many thousands and millions of children can be taught in the devotional…What is (indistinct)? But there is no chance; there is no chance. And the Bhagavata says that if you cannot train your children to become free from birth and death, don’t beget. Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. That is called rascaldom. Don’t beget child. Or, “Go enjoy sense gratification and use some contraceptive method.” No. The (indistinct) should be that “I am a human being, so I must have a child who must be human being.” What is that human being? Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. Here (indistinct) we have discussed last night. Tattva-jijnasa. Everyone should be interested to enquire–athato brahma jijnasa, or tattva- jijnasa, what is the aim of life, what is the absolute truth?
     So, children should be educated also from the very beginning. (end)

     Reply
185. Amar Puri says:

     22. April 2013 at 4:16 am

     SG. you are full of it.

     Did you read the answers to your questions / or issues of Initiation Instructions of Srila Prabhupada which have been posted on this thread ?

     Have you ever read Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions regarding Initiation while he was, is or would be absent or / present ?

     Did you or do you ever bother to find out about the Initiation Instructions of Srila Prabhupada in His Iskcon ?

     If you have the answer to the above questions, then, you write your concern about the Issue you may have. Otherwise, keep on repeating over and over again your concocted ideas with the description of mundane words such as pre / post Samadhi Instructions not only lead you in confusion but also to so many others innocent people who may read your concocted mundane description of interpretation of Srila Prabhupada’s Initiating Instructions.

     I hope you do take this advice seriously in order to show some certain respect in this forum a level of intelligence as a true SEEKER of the TRUTH like all of us, the conditioned Jivas are trying according to our respective best level .

     Hope it meets you well, SG.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     Hari BOL.

     Reply
186. Amar Puri says:

     22. April 2013 at 4:35 am

     Where did you get this, SG :

     For example in the Caitanya Caritamrita when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said,

     “Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or
     the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation.
     The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.”

     Please quote where it is stated in the cc ?

     Of course, Initiation is a formality as Srila Prabhupada has said many times. However, the qualification remains that one must hear the Holy Name from the lips of the Pure Devotee of the Lord.

     And who is that Pure Devotee of the Lord ?

     He is non other than Our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.

     Is this not enough evidence for you to accept the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada ?

     Answer it, SG.

     Quoting from the Sastra without understanding it is itself a cheating, SG.

     Why are you cheating, SG ? What is your motive behind it ?

     Hope you do answer all these question, SG. Otherwise, do not waste your time any further.

     Hari BOL.

     Reply
187. Krishna das says:

     22. April 2013 at 9:18 am

     Now we have Mr Mahesh showering his loads of imaginative accusations(with a very few of them true also) so that his disciples(whom he humbly tells that they are Prabhupada’s disciples but indirectly becomes their absolute authority) blindly believe him without verifying even once whether his accusations are true or false. His disciples will think that questioning and enquiring the reality is a vaishnava aparadha and so better not visit any of the gurus and find out the truth. The disciples think it is better to believe our Guru Mahesh Raja and save our spiritual life. Unfortunately, your disciples lives are not safe under your custody.

     >>There you go again, quoting the May 28, 1977 conversation, even though that argument has been thoroughly defeated on this thread, over and over again
     I am not here for victory or defeat Pratyatosha prabhu. I want to know the truth. I don’t want to believe anyone blindly. If you can answer my questions, I will accept you. The July 9th conversation begins with “many people are waiting for initiations all over the world”. So the order that came out of this conversation was meant to address the specific scenario. When Prabhupada said “India, I am here” that further confirmed that the conversation was meant only for the situation of Prabhupad abeing physcially present on earth. So how can that be generalized as an order meant for a situation when he is no longer with us. When Prabhupada was asked the question of initiations when he is no longer with us, he answered the same on May 28th. Please clarify me why my understanding is wrong here and why do you all still insisting that this letter is meant for initiations forever?

     >>We follow signed, written documents, such as the July 9, 1977 ritvik henceforward directive, not casual conversations
     I felt that words of a spiritual master are never casual. I thought every instruction of a spiritual master is meant for our advancement in Krishna consciousness. I didn’t know that some instructions are casual and only some are serious ones meant for our advancement. Secondly, is there any evidence that written and signed documents must be accepted to accept a bonafide spiritual master? Has Prabhupada told that written and signed documents supersede the vani? If that is the case, is there any written signed document to authorize Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura?

     Puranjana prabhu, is it not the same argument again? If some Guru has fallen down, is that an enough evidence to prove that all ISKCON Gurus are not bonafide?

     >>For those Living Guru lovers and their followers, please be known that all these gurus must start their own respective Institutions and become Self Effulgent like Srila Prabhupada in order to give DIKSHA
     Any evidence for the above statement Amara Puri Prabhu from Prabhupada’s instructions or from Shastras? Is it mentioned anywhere that to give diksha one must register an institution and be its founder acharya? In that case what about Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj? I HAVE ASKED THIS QUESTION A LOT AND LOT OF TIMES AND ALL PEOPLE UNABLE TO ANSWER THIS HAVE PREFERRED TO HIDE THIS QUESTION BY MISDIRECTING READERS WITH FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

     http://bogusritvik.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/gurus-cant-fall-liberated-soul-cant.html
     http://bogusritvik.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/none-of-srila-prabhupadas-disciples-are.html

     >>And in sum, our Prabhupadanugas program is expanding. We are gaining more centers, more devotees, and so on and so forth
     This is one wrong information that is being propagated Puranjana prabhu. Also, newcomers are trained to believe in their seniors blindly without allowing them to find out the reality themselves. So, out of fear of their Krishna consciousness and the thought that they are offending Prabhupada by not believing in you all, they don’t enquire. How many people really come and find out the truth, they just believe their leaders and leaders utilize this to propagate this wrong information that Prabhupadanugas are doing the best and no one else in the whole world is doing anything good. So this can’t be considered as an evidence at all.

     Reply
188. puranjana das says:

     22. April 2013 at 3:19 pm

     We have to prove that the GBC gurus are not bona fide? The entire siddhanta of the GBC gurus, spoken by ther spokesman Jayadvaita swami for example, says gurus are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children. Many GBC lectures, papers, articles and documents say the same thing, gurus fall down. Their 1980 paper, the Mahajanas Have Difficulties, says even the mahajanas fall down. None of these numerous lectures, articles, papers and their bogus statements has ever been countered by any existing GBC guru, they are all promoting the idea that gurus are less than ordinary men (one of the ten offenses), and if they are not promoting it, they are acquiescing with it. If any GBC guru has come out and said all of these documents, lectures, articles, statements, etc. are bogus — who is he? And if someone is acquiescing with deviation, he is as bad as the deviant, that is what Draupadi said, all of you who are going along with my being insulted are as bad as Dusasana. Moreover, the main exponents of the idea that gurus engage in illicit sex, namely Jayadvaita, is the main writer / editor / spokesman for the GBC, they are promoting this man as their main representative. If any GBC leader has protested all this, where has he been all this time, we never heard of any written public protest to those who are saying gurus are most of the time (since most of their gurus have subsequently fallen) — falling, deviants, debauchees, perverts, if not child molesters, and so forth? Where is the protest document found? ys pd

     Reply
189. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     22. April 2013 at 4:36 pm

     Both “Krishna das” and “SG” are ritvik bashers, but, unlike Krishna das, it doesn’t seem like the word “prabhu” is part of SG’s vocabulary. Why is that?

     The truly advanced devotee sees that he is not a devotee but that everyone else is a devotee.—Śrīla Prabhupāda

     Thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street, one should be more tolerant than a tree—Lord Caitanya

     Anyone who has any desire or aspiration for satisfying his senses by becoming more and more important, either in the material sense or in the spiritual sense, cannot actually relish the really sweet taste of devotional service—Śrīla Prabhupāda

     (See: http://pratyatosa.com/?P=r)

     How many Rocana/SG/ISKCON pretender guru types can claim to be advanced devotees according to the above 3 criteria?

     BTW, Krishna das keeps insinuating that the Ritviks on this thread are after name, fame and followers like the ISKCON pretender gurus are. No. Not true. The Ritviks care nothing about their own personal glorification. If they did, then they would shy away from open Internet debates, like the ISKCON pretender gurus do.

     The Ritviks simply care about the truth being revealed. That’s all.

     Reply
190. Mahesh Raja says:

     22. April 2013 at 5:47 pm

     Mr “Krishna das” : In that case what about Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj?

     Mahesh: You do not have to worry about Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj. Srila Prabhupada has mentioned Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj as our Acarya in Disciplic succession – that is good enough for us. Simple as that! We ACCEPT OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU Srila Prabhupada as AUTHORITY.

     Your unholy bunch of crooks manufactured by the bogus GBC are NOT accepted as Diksa guru :

     WHERE THE RITVIK PEOPLE ARE RIGHT
     by H. H. Jayadvaita Swami, 1996
     FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.
     FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.
     FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.
     FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.
     FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after “narrow misses.”
     FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.
     FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over.

     Srila Prabhupada “……Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.”

     Reply
191. Mahesh Raja says:

     22. April 2013 at 6:14 pm

     Mr “Krishna das”: Now we have Mr Mahesh showering his loads of imaginative accusations(with a very few of them true also) so that his disciples(whom he humbly tells that they are Prabhupada’s disciples but indirectly becomes their absolute authority) blindly believe him without verifying even once whether his accusations are true or false. His disciples will think that questioning and enquiring the reality is a vaishnava aparadha and so better not visit any of the gurus and find out the truth. The disciples think it is better to believe our Guru Mahesh Raja and save our spiritual life. Unfortunately, your disciples lives are not safe under your custody.

     Pratyatosa Prabhu: BTW, Krishna das keeps insinuating that the Ritviks on this thread are after name, fame and followers like the ISKCON pretender gurus are. No. Not true. The Ritviks care nothing about their own personal glorification. If they did, then they would shy away from open Internet debates, like the ISKCON pretender gurus do.
     The Ritviks simply care about the truth being revealed. That’s all.

     Mahesh: We TRUE followers of Srila Prabhupada OUR BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU accept the Ritvik System this is why your claim that about “my disciples” is fictitious. All those who follow Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik System MUST accept the disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s – NO COMPROMISE!

     77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
     In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. AFTER CONSIDERING THE RECOMMENDATION, THESE REPRESENTATIVES MAY ACCEPT THE DEVOTEE AS AN INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.

     75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
     The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

     “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     WHEN I order
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2603.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Become Guru by Order, That’s All
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5990.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     What We Have Heard from the Spiritual Master, That is Living
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6409.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Brief History of Guru Hoax in ISKCON
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2302.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Diksa Given to Madhyama-adhikari is Not a Formality
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-07/editorials2223.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ritvik – **Representative**
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-07/editorials2084.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Ritvik System Is Bonafide
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-09/editorials4085.htm

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Formalities
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-08/editorials3324.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Brahmana (Kanistha)
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     The rescuer must be liberated
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2330.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Tattva-darsinah
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2433.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     He is not a liberated person
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/02-08/editorials2491.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     The Case for Blind Uttama Adhikaris
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-10/editorials6158.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Jesus Christ Predicts Appearance of Srila Prabhupada
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-10/editorials6258.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada in Absentia BY: KURMA DASA (NOT THE CHEF)

     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials5991.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Disciplic Succession
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2628.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Satyam – Truthfulness
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6526.htm
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2673.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     We Don’t Allow Any Literature Not Given by Liberated Soul
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-08/editorials2819.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
     http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Was Sridhara Maharaja a bonafide guru?
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/was-sridhara-maharaja-bona-fide-guru
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Sridhara Maharaja – EXPOSED
     http://iskcontimes.com/sridhara-maharaja-exposed
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Conditioned soul Sridhara Maharaja Vs Srila Prabhupada the Mahabhagavata
     http://iskcontimes.com/conditioned-soul-sridhara-maharaja-vs-srila-prabhupada-mahabhagavata
     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Exposing Gaudiya Math Twister: Sankarshana dasa (Bhakta Suria)

     http://iskcontimes.com/exposing-gaudiya-math-twister
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakta Raj Defeats Ajamila
     http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-10/editorials6568.htm

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakti Vikasa Interpolation Vs the Truth
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti%20vikasa-interpolation-vs-the-truth

     ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Bhakti Vikasa is a SAHAJIYA
     http://www.iskcontimes.com/bhakti-vikasa-is-a-SAHAJIYA
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     Reply to Nimai Pandit Prabhu and Rocana das
     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=33002#comment-16956

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     CON Trick from the Bogus GBC
     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=34797#more-34797

     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     Srila Prabhupada poisoned:

     http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/fotos/Prabhupada998.pdf

     Reply
192. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     22. April 2013 at 7:33 pm

     Krishna das says: >>We follow signed, written documents, such as the July 9, 1977 ritvik henceforward directive, not casual conversations.
     I felt that words of a spiritual master are never casual. I thought every instruction of a spiritual master is meant for our advancement in Krishna consciousness. I didn’t know that some instructions are casual and only some are serious ones meant for our advancement. Secondly, is there any evidence that written and signed documents must be accepted to accept a bonafide spiritual master? Has Prabhupada told that written and signed documents supersede the vani?

     This, “Let’s be blind followers” mentality might also be motivated by the GBC’s failure to follow the July 9th, 1977 letter: Written, signed, legally viable documents containing Srila Prabhupada’s management decisions for ISKCON, such as the 7/9/77 letter to all GBCs and temple presidents, we follow blindly. This is our duty as disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada. … However, to blindly follow everything that Srila Prabhupada says in casual conversations is not what Srila Prabhupada intends for us to do. Srila Prabhupada didn’t want blind followers. He wanted followers who use their God-given intelligence in the service of God (Krishna). We have to learn to use some common sense discrimination.

     (http://groups.google.com/group/istagosthi/msg/6019653fe145bb08)

     To give everything that Srila Prabhupada says equal weight is actually a form of impersonalism. This is explained by Srila Prabhupada in an extremely important, extremely significant letter:

     http://prabhupadaletters.com/letters/bombay/february/04/1972/atreya_rsi

     Therefore, according to the above referenced letter, anyone who says that we must give everything that Srila Prabhupada says, even in casual conversations, equal weight, is actually disobeying Srila Prabhupada’s own instructions on the matter. This letter is more evidence that Srila Prabhupada didn’t want blind followers who don’t know how to discriminate. He wanted followers who have powers of discrimination and who use their God-given intelligence in the service of God (Krishna).

     Reply
193. Amar Puri says:

     22. April 2013 at 10:32 pm

     Amar Puri >>For those Living Guru lovers and their followers, please be known that all these gurus must start their own respective Institutions and become Self Effulgent like Srila Prabhupada in order to give DIKSHA.

     Krishna das says ; ” Any evidence for the above statement Amara Puri Prabhu from Prabhupada’s instructions or from Shastras? Is it mentioned anywhere that to give diksha one must register an institution and be its founder acharya? In that case what about Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj? I HAVE ASKED THIS QUESTION A LOT AND LOT OF TIMES AND ALL PEOPLE UNABLE TO ANSWER THIS HAVE PREFERRED TO HIDE THIS QUESTION BY MISDIRECTING READERS WITH FALSE ACCUSATIONS.”

     I wonder if KD reads the reply given else where in this thread to his issues or concerns he mentions in his rebuttal repeatedly like SG who also presents his rebuttal on his mundane concocted descriptions such as pre / post SAMADHI to challenge Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

     The same game KD is playing as it seems when he questions the exalted position of the BAJANA ANADI His Divine Grace Srila Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj.

     KD,…. do you understand and know the difference between the exalted positions of the BAJANA ANADI Acarya and the Parivarajik Acarya?

     It does not look like you know the difference. If not, why do you not ask it from your living initiating guru who so ever s/he is before you show your ignorance in rebuttaling the Initiating Instructions of Srila Prabhupada?

     How dare you to limit the up line position of the greatest Acaryas in the disciplic succession and yet you want a proof from Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions when you and your gurus of all sorts of gradation are disobeying the Initiating Instructions ?

     Do you not see in the list of 32 Acaryas who have started their own preaching Maths/ Institutions knowing it very well that in every Maths / Institutions the Acarya is PRESENT always ?

     In order to remove the curtain from your eyes, I beg from you to kindly ask forgiveness from HDG. Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada for his blessing and OBEY His Initiating Instructions to make your life and other people’s lives sublime in cultivating Krishana Consciousness.

     All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

     OM TAT SAT.

     YS……. Amar Puri.

     Reply
194. Amar Puri says:

     22. April 2013 at 10:41 pm

     KD, SG and all others non-believers of the Initiating Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada, kindly read the following from Srila Prabhupada ;

     “Actually, I have already answered all questions in my books such as the Bhagavad Gita, so kindly read them and chant Hare Krishna.”

     (Letter to Brian Fleming, March 6, 1974)

     Hope all of you please make your life sublime in KC. by reading ONLY Srila Prabhupada’s Original BOOKS, hearing from His lectures, tapes and other materials available in order to find all the answers.

     Hari BOL.

     Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.

     Reply
195. SG says:

     23. April 2013 at 3:43 am

     Mahesh Raja says:
     22. April 2013 at 6:14 pm

     ” Mr “Krishna das”: Now we have Mr Mahesh showering his loads of
     imaginative accusations(with a very few of them true also) so that
     his disciples(whom he humbly tells that they are Prabhupada’s disciples
     but indirectly becomes their absolute authority) blindly believe him
     without verifying even once whether his accusations are true or false.
     His disciples will think that questioning and enquiring the reality is
     a vaishnava aparadha and so better not visit any of the gurus and find
     out the truth. The disciples think it is better to believe our Guru
     Mahesh Raja and save our spiritual life. Unfortunately, your disciples
     lives are not safe under your custody.”

     SG — HA ! HA !, Yes, this Mahesh Raja thinks he is some kind of super guru.
     Loads and loads of quotes but mostly ‘shooting blanks’ – his quotes I mean.
     Super guru or more than a guru. Sometime ago, when a quote on a statement
     from Srila Prabhupada was presented – ” One can go back to godhead in this
     life if one likes and is sincere and serious”, Mahesh Raja came back by
     saying that this is cheap and sahajiya thinking.

     Here is the comment :

     Mahesh Raja says:
     3. March 2013 at 10:12 am

     SG – Srila Prabhupada says:

     THE LESSON FROM THE LIFE OF DHRUVA MAHARAJA IS THAT
     IF ONE LIKES, ONE CAN ATTAIN VAIKUNTHALOKA IN ONE LIFE,
     WITHOUT WAITING FOR MANY OTHER LIVES. MY GURU MAHARAJ,
     SRI SRIMAD BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI GOSWAMI PRABHUPADA,
     USED TO SAY THAT EVERY ONE OF HIS DISCIPLES COULD ATTAIN
     VAIKUNTHALOKA IN THIS LIFE, WITHOUT WAITING FOR ANOTHER LIFE
     TO EXECUTE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. ONE SIMPLY HAS TO BECOME AS
     SERIOUS AND SINCERE AS DHRUVA MAHARAJ; THEN IT IS QUITE
     POSSIBLE TO ATTAIN VAIKUNTHALOKA AND GO BACK HOME, BACK TO
     GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE.

     MR – “SG prabhu what you have pointed out is a young child so
     determined to practice severe penances and austerities. Now if
     you see the GENERAL section of society they can not even follow
     properly the 4 regs and chanting 16 rounds what to speak of
     SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES.

     The philosophy is simultaneous oness and different ie for the
     RARE soul who can do SEVERE PENANCES AND AUSTERITIES
     one can go back in one life BUT for the GENERAL folks IT IS NOT
     POSSIBLE TO GO BACK TO GODHEAD IN ONE LIFE. It is NOT
     so cheap. ”

     “you don’t make it a cheap sahjiya thing. The words “SERIOUS AND
     SINCERE AS DHRUVA MAHARAJ” are there. Without SENSE CONTROL
     AS SERIOUS AND SINCERE AS DHRUVA MAHARAJ you can NOT attain
     Vaikuntha in ONE LIFE time. ”

     Mahesh Raja understands this statement more or better than his Diksa
     Guru Srila Prabhupada, a more realize soul than his guru and previous
     acarya.

     Encourage — To inspire with hope, courage, or confidence.

     Discourage — Cause (someone) to lose confidence or enthusiasm.
     Prevent or seek to prevent (something) by showing disapproval
     or creating difficulties.

     HARE KRSNA

     Reply
196. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 10:18 am

     SEEING VRNDAVANA ACTUALLY

     Adi 8.31 The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru
     Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura remarks in this connection that if one takes shelter of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda, follows Their instructions to become more tolerant than the tree and humbler than the grass,and in this way chants the holy name of the Lord, very soon he achieves the platform of transcendental loving service to the Lord, and tears appear in his eyes. There are offenses to be considered in chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, but there are no such considerations in chanting the names of Gaura-Nityananda. Therefore, if one chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra but his life is still full of sinful activities, it will be very difficult for him to achieve the platform of loving service to the Lord. But if in spite of being an offender one chants the holy names of Gaura-Nityananda, he is very quickly freed from the reactions to his offenses. Therefore, one should first approach Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, or worship Guru-Gauranga, and then come to the stage of worshiping Radha-Krsna. In our Krsna consciousness movement, our students are first advised to worship Guru-Gauranga, and then, when they are somewhat advanced, the Radha-Krsna Deity is installed, and they are engaged in the worship of the Lord.
     One should first take shelter of Gaura-Nityananda in order to reach, ultimately, Radha-Krsna. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura sings in this connection:

     gauranga balite habe pulaka sarira
     hari hari balite nayane ba’be nira

     ara kabe nitaicandera karuna ha-ibe
     samsara-vasana mora kabe tuccha habe

     VISAYA CHADIYA KABE SUDDHA HABE MANA
     KABE HAMA HERABA SRI-VRNDAVANA

     In the beginning one should very regularly chant Sri Gaurasundara’s holy name and then chant the holy name of Lord Nityananda. Thus one’s heart will be cleansed of impure desires for material enjoyment. Then one can approach Vrndavana-dhama to worship Lord Krsna. UNLESS ONE IS FAVORED BY LORD CAITANYA AND NITYANANDA, THERE IS NO NEED TO GO TO VRNDAVANA, FOR UNLESS ONE’S MIND IS PURIFIED, HE CANNOT SEE VRNDAVANA, EVEN IF HE GOES THERE. ACTUALLY GOING TO VRNDAVANA INVOLVES TAKING SHELTER OF THE SIX GOSVAMIS BY READING BHAKTI-RASAMRTA-SINDHU, VIDAGDHA-MADHAVA, LALITA-MADHAVA AND THE OTHER BOOKS THAT THEY HAVE GIVEN. In this way one can understand the transcendental loving affairs between Radha and Krsna. Kabe hama bujhaba se yugala-piriti. The conjugal love between Radha and Krsna is not an ordinary human affair; it is fully transcendental. In order to understand Radha and Krsna, worship Them and engage in Their loving service, one must be guided by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu and the six Gosvamis, Lord Caitanya’s direct disciples.

     Adi 7.17 Lord Caitanya in Five Features
     In connection with verses sixteen and seventeen, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhasya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.” This gradual development of devotional service is described by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura as follows:

     gauranga balite habe pulaka sarira
     hari hari balite nayane ba’be nira

     ara kabe nitaicanda karuna karibe
     samsara-vasana mora kabe tuccha habe

     VISAYA CHADIYA KABE SUDDHA HABE MANA
     KABE HAMA HERABA SRI-VRNDAVANA

     rupa-raghunatha-pade ha-ibe akuti
     kabe hama bujhaba sri-yugala-piriti

     “When will there be eruptions on my body as soon as I chant the name of Lord Caitanya, and when will there be incessant torrents of tears as soon as I chant the holy names Hare Krsna? When will Lord Nityananda be merciful toward me and free me from all desires for material enjoyment? WHEN WILL MY MIND BE COMPLETELY FREED FROM ALL CONTAMINATION OF DESIRES FOR MATERIAL PLEASURE? ONLY AT THAT TIME WILL IT BE POSSIBLE FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND VRNDAVANA. Only if I become attached to the instructions given by the six Gosvamis, headed by Rupa Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, will it be possible for me to understand the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna.” By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord’s pastimes in Vrndavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvamis, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee’s promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krsna in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

     KB 38 Akrura’s Arrival in Vrndavana
     Narottama dasa Thakura has sung in a celebrated song, VISAYA CHADIYA KABE SUDDHA HABE MANA: “WHEN MY MIND WILL BE PURIFIED AFTER LEAVING THE CONTAMINATION OF MATERIAL SENSE ENJOYMENT, I SHALL BE ABLE TO VISIT VRNDAVANA.” ACTUALLY, ONE CANNOT GO TO VRNDAVANA BY PURCHASING A TICKET. THE PROCESS OF GOING TO VRNDAVANA IS SHOWN BY AKRURA.

     SPL Makhanlal 70-06-03
     Regarding your special worshipment of Lord Nityananda: Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura has sung, “Gauranga balite habe . . . etc.” when that time will come when torrents of tears shall pour from my eyes simply by uttering the Name of Gauranga. It is not that one should worship one and neglect the others. So the symptoms of Lord Nityananda’s mercy are exhibited according to the description of Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura BY THE DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL SENSE ENJOYMENT, BECAUSE WITHOUT BEING FREED FROM THE ATTACHMENT FOR MATERIAL SENSE ENJOYMENT, NOBODY CAN ENTER INTO THE TRANSCENDENTAL PASTIME OF RADHA AND KRSNA.
     Radha and Krsna lila or pastime is perfectly understood by following the instructions of the six Goswamis. So all these favors and mercy of the Acaryas and Incarnations go together. It is not that if I receive favor of one section I shall be reluctant to receive favor of other sections. It is very good symptom to have received Lord Nityananda’s favor, but if we are actually favored by Lord Nityananda our business will be to please Lord Caitanya. And if Lord Caitanya is pleased, then we easily understand the truth of Radha Krsna through the mercy of the Goswamis.
     So the above verse means that as soon as one will chant the name of Lord Caitanya he will feel a transcendental ecstasy. All of us should wait for this stage of life. The transcendental ecstatic symptoms certainly become manifested in a devotee’s body, but they should not be exhibited amongst common men. When Lord Caitanya met Ramananda Roy, both of them felt this ecstasy by embracing one another. But as soon as Lord Caitanya saw that Ramananda Roy was in the company of some outsider brahmanas, He checked Himself. This is already described in our Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
     The transcendental symptoms of ecstasy certainly are auspicious, but they are not for advertising to others. One should not advertise directly or indirectly that one is feeling like this. They should be checked. Otherwise one will gradually become sahajiya or one who takes spiritual advancement as something materially manifest. Actual spiritual advancement means detachment for everything material. So our activities are nothing material. Detachment from material activities, means attachment for spiritual activities, devotional service. After all, our energy has to be utilized, so when it is materially detached it means with greater enthusiasm our spiritual activities increase.
     So Lord Caitanya is combined form of Radha Krsna. If Caitanya is pleased, Radha and Krsna automatically become pleased. Now our mission, Krsna consciousness mission, is to execute the will of Lord Caitanya. In this old age whatever I am trying to do it is just to give a little service according to my capacity to Lord Caitanya’s mission. I have not come here for some personal credit in this old age. I have also come here under the order of my Spiritual Master who is non-different from Lord Nityananda.
     You are all helping me in the execution of my mission so please do not try to do anything beyond the jurisdiction of my instructions. My will I have already disclosed to you all that each and every one of you should chant the Mahamantra regularly in sixteen rounds, follow the four regulative principles, chant Hare Krsna mantra on the streets, try to distribute our books and literature, and specifically in San Francisco you should observe the annual Ratha Yatra festival very gorgeously. I can assure you that if you follow my instruction as above mentioned there is no doubt about it that through me my spiritual Master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura will be pleased, and through His mercy Lord Nityananda will be pleased. In this way Lord Caitanya and ultimately Radha Krsna will be pleased, and thus your life will be successful.
     You are all intelligent boys. Please try to understand me and do the needful.
     Your ever well-wisher,
     A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

     ACBS:db

     750917SB.VRN Lectures
     When we shall be free from visaya… Visaya means ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam. So who can give up visaya unless he is a great devotee? Others cannot. Visaya, it is very difficult. But if one is advanced devotee–param drstva nivartate–they can give up. So if you come to Vrndavana and arrange for a visaya-bhoga–ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam–then Vrndavana is far away. Visaya chadiya. The whole Krsna consciousness movement is on the basis of visaya chadiya. And Sri Locana dasa Thakura also sings, visaya chadiya se rase majiya, mukhe bolo hari hari. Visaya chadiya. If… Of course, in the beginning it is not possible, but the ultimate goal of life is to give up visaya–no more ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. That is called visaya chadiya. Just like Raghunatha dasa Gosvami did. He came here, lived in Vrndavana. He was a very, very rich man’s son. Five hundred years ago his father’s income was twelve lakhs of rupees. Now it may be crores of rupees. Five hundred years He was such a rich man’s son. And very beautiful wife. Because Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was restless, he was always trying to go with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, so his father and uncle He was the only son of his two brothers. So they thought that “This boy is very restless. He wants to go away with Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Let him have a very nice, beautiful wife and he’ll be attracted.” But he was not attracted. He was not even going inside the house. He was lying down outside the house, young man. He had no taste for visaya. Visaya chadiya. Therefore later on he became Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. Formerly he was simply Raghunatha, and when he joined Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then he became Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.
     So he was eating… He was living in Radha-kunda, you know, all Vrndavana-vasis. He was eating every alternate days a little butter. That’s all. So ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau. This is… The more you have become free from nidra, means sleeping; ahara, eating; and vihara, sex; and… Nidrahara-viharakadi. And so far bhaya, a devotee is not fearful of anything.

     Reply
197. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 11:01 am

     771025rc.vrn Conversations
     Hari-sauri: He was an elderly Australian devotee, the man who was doing the architecture. You saw him in Bombay, that older man. He was about fifty-six.
     Prabhupada: In Bombay?
     Hari-sauri: You saw him in Bombay last year. He had just done some drawings for the development of Bhubaneshwar, and you asked him if he would like… Oh, Haridaspur. At that time he was working on some plans for Haridaspur, and you asked him if he would like to stay there. He’s… Bhagavata put that he had died of some brain virus.
     Prabhupada: In Bhubaneshwar?
     Hari-sauri: Yes. That is part of Jagannatha Puri dhama?
     Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
     Hari-sauri: Is that a guarantee for going home, if someone leaves their body in the dhama?
     Prabhupada: AT LEAST, HE GETS HIGH STANDARD OF LIFE FOR MANY YEARS. THAT IS STATED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA. FIND OUT IN BHAGAVAD-GITA.
     Hari-sauri: (pause) Prapya punya-krtam lokan?
     Prabhupada: Hm.
     Hari-sauri:
     usitva sasvatih samah
     sucinam srimatam gehe
     yoga-bhrasto ‘bhijayate

     Prabhupada: Read the whole verse.
     Hari-sauri: The English?
     Prabhupada: Or Sanskrit.
     Hari-sauri: That was text 41. “The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people or into a family of rich aristocracy.” Then the next verse,

     athava yoginam eva
     kule bhavati dhimatam
     etad dhi durlabhataram
     loke janma yad idrsam

     “Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists, who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world.”

     tatra tam buddhi-samyogam
     labhate paurva-dehikam
     yatate ca tato bhuyah
     samsiddhau kuru-nandana

     “On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru.” (break) …telegram came today. It didn’t give the exact time, but it came from Bhubaneshwar.
     Prabhupada: He was there?
     Hari-sauri: Yes. He was working with Gaura-Govinda Maharaja.
     Prabhupada: He is… He was coming from Australia.
     Hari-sauri: Yes. He was from Melbourne. He gave up his family when he was fifty-one and joined the temple, and then he came here to work with Saurabha.

     Reply
198. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 11:10 am

     SO PRABHUPADA CONDEMNED THEM THAT “THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN RADHA-KUNDA. THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.” I HEARD IT, “THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.”

     760607mw.la Conversations
     Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we’re talking so much about the business of how to spread Krsna consciousness, but we’re not talking enough about Krsna’s pastimes, krsna-katha, they say. So that’s another reason why they want to read all these pastimes.
     Prabhupada: Then let them read. What kind of krsna-katha? The krsna-katha test is as soon as he’ll get the taste, he’ll lose this taste. That is the…. What is this nonsense?
     Ramesvara: Won’t it purify them? That’s what they say, “It will purify me.”
     Prabhupada: What you are purified? You have become a, what is called, putrefied, not purified.
     Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada.
     Ramesvara: You can become purified, and sometimes you can increase your…
     Prabhupada: No, no. You can read. Be purified. You can read. But where is your purification?
     Tamala Krsna: Putrefaction.
     Prabhupada: The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. (break) In 1935, our Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he went to Radha-kunda for karttika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upanisads. So first of all, these babajis they were coming. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come at Radha-kunda. He’s giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upanisads, they stopped coming. They saw: “They are jnanis, they are not bhaktas.”
     Tamala Krsna: What did they want to hear? Dasama-skandha?
     Prabhupada: Like that. SO PRABHUPADA CONDEMNED THEM THAT “THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN RADHA-KUNDA. THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.” I HEARD IT, “THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.”
     Tamala Krsna: So our men who go to Radha-kunda and live there…
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Hari-sauri: They’re risking living in Naraka-kunda.
     Tamala Krsna: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Radha-kunda. Do not try to jump over like a monkey.

     Reply
199. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 11:47 am

     Note: it is ALL about CONSCIOUSNESS . Our consciousness at the time of death will decide WHERE we go.

     SO PRABHUPADA CONDEMNED THEM THAT “THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN RADHA-KUNDA. THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.” I HEARD IT, “THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.”

     760607mw.la Conversations
     Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we’re talking so much about the business of how to spread Krsna consciousness, but we’re not talking enough about Krsna’s pastimes, krsna-katha, they say. So that’s another reason why they want to read all these pastimes.
     Prabhupada: Then let them read. What kind of krsna-katha? The krsna-katha test is as soon as he’ll get the taste, he’ll lose this taste. That is the…. What is this nonsense?
     Ramesvara: Won’t it purify them? That’s what they say, “It will purify me.”
     Prabhupada: What you are purified? You have become a, what is called, putrefied, not purified.
     Devotees: Jaya, Prabhupada.
     Ramesvara: You can become purified, and sometimes you can increase your…
     Prabhupada: No, no. You can read. Be purified. You can read. But where is your purification?
     Tamala Krsna: Putrefaction.
     Prabhupada: The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. (break) In 1935, our Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he went to Radha-kunda for karttika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upanisads. So first of all, these babajis they were coming. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come at Radha-kunda. He’s giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upanisads, they stopped coming. They saw: “They are jnanis, they are not bhaktas.”
     Tamala Krsna: What did they want to hear? Dasama-skandha?
     Prabhupada: Like that. SO PRABHUPADA CONDEMNED THEM THAT “THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN RADHA-KUNDA. THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.” I HEARD IT, “THEY’RE LIVING IN NARAKA-KUNDA.”
     Tamala Krsna: So our men who go to Radha-kunda and live there…
     Prabhupada: Yes.
     Hari-sauri: They’re risking living in Naraka-kunda.
     Tamala Krsna: I remember one boy was living there for about three months, and you got very angry and told him that there were already enough monkeys in Radha-kunda. Do not try to jump over like a monkey.

     750207BG.HAW Lectures
     Just like you infect some disease, nature’s law is that you must suffer from that disease. Nobody has got to do anything. The law is so… Nature’s law is like that. If you take more food than you can digest… (aside:) (child crying) Where is that child? Then immediately there will be dysentery. This is nature’s law. If you take more than you can digest, then immediately there will be indigestion, means you cannot assimilate so much food. That is nature’s law. If you touch fire, either you touch or your innocent child touch, the fire will burn it. Fire will not consider that “Here is a child. Let me excuse.” No, it will burn. This is nature’s law. SIMILARLY, THE THOUGHTS WHICH YOU ARE MAINTAINING DURING YOUR LIFETIME, IF THAT THOUGHT BECOMES PROMINENT–NATURALLY IT BECOMES–AT THE TIME OF DEATH, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO GET A SIMILAR BODY. IF YOU ARE THINKING LIKE A DEMON, THEN YOU GET THE DEMON’S BODY NEXT LIFE. AND IF YOU ARE THINKING LIKE A DEVOTEE, THEN YOU GET YOUR NEXT LIFE BACK TO HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD. THIS IS NATURE’S LAW.

     Reply
200. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 11:51 am

     Bg 8.6 T Attaining the Supreme

     yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
     tyajaty ante kalevaram
     tam tam evaiti kaunteya
     sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

     SYNONYMS

     yam yam–whatever; va–either; api–also; smaran–remembering; bhavam–nature; tyajati–give up; ante–at the end; kalevaram–this body; tam tam–similar; eva–certainly; eti–gets; kaunteya–O son of Kunti; sada–always; tat–that; bhava–state of being; bhavitah–remembering.

     TRANSLATION
     Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.

     PURPORT
     The process of changing one’s nature at the critical moment of death is here explained. How can one die in the proper state of mind? Maharaja Bharata thought of a deer at the time of death and so was transferred to that form of life. However, as a deer, Maharaja Bharata could remember his past activities. Of course the cumulative effect of the thoughts and actions of one’s life influences one’s thoughts at the moment of death; therefore the actions of this life determine one’s future state of being. If one is transcendentally absorbed in Krsna’s service, then his next body will be transcendental (spiritual), not physical. Therefore the chanting of Hare Krsna is the best process for successfully changing one’s state of being to transcendental life.

     SB 4.28.2 Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life
     Once the dangerous soldiers attacked the city of Puranjana with great force. Although the city was full of paraphernalia for sense gratification, it was being protected by the old serpent.

     PURPORT
     As one’s body engages in sense gratification, it becomes weaker and weaker daily. Finally the vital force becomes so weak that it is herein compared to a weak serpent. The life air has already been compared to the serpent. When the vital force within the body becomes weak, the body itself also becomes weak. At such a time the death symptoms–that is, the dangerous soldiers of death’s superintendent, Yamaraja–begin to attack very severely. According to the Vedic system, before coming to such a stage one should leave home and take sannyasa to preach the message of God for the duration of life. However, if one sits at home and is served by his beloved wife and children, he certainly becomes weaker and weaker due to sense gratification. When death finally comes, one leaves the body devoid of spiritual assets. At the present time, even the oldest man in the family does not leave home, being attracted by wife, children, money, opulence, dwelling, etc. Thus at the end of life one worries about how his wife will be protected and how she will manage the great family responsibilities. In this way a man usually thinks of his wife before death. According to Bhagavad-gita (8.6):

     yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
     tyajaty ante kalevaram
     tam tam evaiti kaunteya
     sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

     “Whatever state of being ONE REMEMBERS WHEN HE QUITS HIS BODY, that state he will attain without fail.”
     AT THE END OF LIFE, A PERSON THINKS OF WHAT HE HAS DONE THROUGHOUT HIS WHOLE LIFE; THUS HE GETS ANOTHER BODY (DEHANTARA) ACCORDING TO HIS THOUGHTS AND DESIRES AT THE END OF LIFE. ONE OVERLY ADDICTED TO LIFE AT HOME NATURALLY THINKS OF HIS BELOVED WIFE AT THE END OF LIFE. CONSEQUENTLY, IN THE NEXT LIFE HE GETS THE BODY OF A WOMAN, and he also acquires the results of his pious or impious activities. In this chapter the acceptance of a woman’s body by King Puranjana will be thoroughly explained.

     Reply
201. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 12:10 pm

     Note: If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted.

     What the Anti Ritviks are doing is going AGAINST Srila Prabhupada by DENYING his rightful position as CURRENT Diksa Guru of ISKCON THIS IS OFFENSE AGAINST THE CHANTING OF THE HOLY NAME.

     By the strength of chanting Hare Krsna mantra, I can do anything, all sinful activities, and it will be adjusted,” that is the greatest offense, not only offense, the greatest offense. Namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih.

     750203mw.haw Conversations
     Ramesvara: They think just by chanting, they will go back to the spiritual world. That is enough.
     Prabhupada: Then what is the meaning of the ten kinds of offenses? If he is chanting without offense, then it is all right, but if he is committing offenses, it will not be effective. There are ten kinds of offenses. Whether he is strictly offenseless? Then it is all right. If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted. (aside:) Don’t come very near. That’s it. So they are committing offenses, so how they can become perfect? He is committing not following the rules and regulation. That means he is thinking that “Whatever I do, it will be adjusted by chanting the name.” Is it not?
     Guru-krpa: Yes. That’s one of the offenses.
     Ramesvara: That is their philosophy.
     Prabhupada: That is their philosophy. That is the greatest offense, namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih, that “I can go on committing sinful activity, but by chanting Hare Krsna mantra, it will be adjusted.” That is the greatest offense. So explain to them.
     Guru-krpa: So they say, “Then my chanting is useless? So I should stop?” That’s what they say.
     Prabhupada: No, not useless. But just like if you kindle fire and at the same time pour water, it will take long time. To kindle fire, make it dry, keep it dry. Then it will be very quickly successful. So you are committing offenses, at the same time chanting, so by chanting effect, you will come to that stage, but it will take time. If you want to be transferred to the spiritual world quickly, just like if you want to ignite the fire very quickly, you must keep it dry. If you simply put on the wet wood, then the fire will not be very powerful. It will be… It will take time. The fire will be blazing fire. Then it will dry. It will take… Better put dry wood to make it successful. This is the process. The effect of chanting Hare Krsna will not go in vain, but it will take time. Namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. Because he is thinking “By the strength of chanting Hare Krsna mantra, I can do anything, all sinful activities, and it will be adjusted,” that is the greatest offense, not only offense, the greatest offense. Namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih.

     Reply
202. Krishna das says:

     23. April 2013 at 12:37 pm

     >>If they did, then they would shy away from open Internet debates, like the ISKCON pretender gurus do

     Pratyatosa prabhu, can it not happen that Ritviks come here for debate because they may have a fear that if this process popularizes, then they may not be an absolute authority over their followers?

     >>Srila Prabhupada has mentioned Gaura Kishore Dasa babaji Maharaj as our Acarya in Disciplic succession — that is good enough for us.

     Again the same statement Mahesh Raja, you accept Prabhupada’s statements because YOU have accepted him as your spiritual master. You reject the statement of ISKCON Gurus because YOU have not accepted them as your spiritual master. Can you give me one other reason why Prabhupada needn’t give any evidence of his being Guru but his disciples must give evidence?

     >>How dare you to limit the up line position of the greatest Acaryas in the disciplic succession and yet you want a proof from Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions

     I am not limiting Amara Puri prabhu, you are limiting the position of great acharyas by saying that opening institutions is a major qualification for a person to become a spiritual master. I copy your statement here again, tell me if you have not said so:
     “For those Living Guru lovers and their followers, please be known that all these gurus must start their own respective Institutions and become Self Effulgent like Srila Prabhupada in order to give DIKSHA”

     >>Do you not see in the list of 32 Acaryas who have started their own preaching Maths/ Institutions knowing it very well that in every Maths / Institutions the Acarya is PRESENT always

     No, I see many acharyas in the list who have not started their own institutions. Can you give me a list of which acharya started which institution for all of the acharyas in the list?

     >>Actually, I have already answered all questions in my books such as the Bhagavad Gita, so kindly read them and chant Hare Krishna

     Then prabhu, why did you need someone else to explain the Ritvik theory? Why did you not learn directly from Prabhupada’s books?

     Reply
203. Mahesh Raja says:

     23. April 2013 at 12:55 pm

     SG : Encourage — To inspire with hope, courage, or confidence.

     Mahesh: If you are DENYING Srila Prabhupada as CURRENT DIKSA GURU for ISKCON and going AGAINST the Ritvik System he ORDERED as per July 9th 1977 that means HYPOCRISY. Then HOW can YOU be encouraged? ENTHUSIASM WILL BE LACKING. SATO VRTTEH, MEANS BEHAVIOR MUST BE VERY HONEST, NO DUPLICITY. DEALING MUST BE VERY HONESTLY, NO HYPOCRISY.

     72-12-22. Letter: Karandhara
     I am little observing now, especially in your country, that our men are losing their enthusiasm for spreading on our programmes of Krishna Consciousness movement. Otherwise, why so many letters of problems are coming, dissatisfied? That is not a very good sign. THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES, THAT I CAN DETECT. WITHOUT THIS, ENTHUSIASM WILL BE LACKING. Even mechanically following, and if he gets gradually understanding from the class, he will come to the point of spontaneous enthusiasm. This spontaneous loving devotional service is not so easy matter, but if one simply sticks strictly to the rules and regulations, like rising early, chanting 16 rounds, chanting gayatri, keeping always clean–then his enthusiasm will grow more and more, and if there is also patience and determination, one day he will come to the platform of spontaneous devotion, then his life will be perfect. All of this I have told you in Nectar of Devotion. So I do not think the leaders are themselves following, nor they are seeing the others are following strictly. That must be rectified at once. Each centre remain independent, that’s all right, but the president and other officers must themselves follow and see the others are following the regulative principles carefully, and giving them good instruction so they may understand nicely why this tapasya is necessary.

     750225DP.CAR Lectures
     Prabhupada: (translated into Spanish by Hrdayananda) So I thank you very much for your kindly receiving me in this temple, and I was very happy. So my request is that you continue your devotional service very faithfully and rigidly, then in this life you will be able to see Krsna face to face. That is a fact. So you follow the advice, as given by Rupa Gosvami, utsahat. The first thing is enthusiasm, that “I must see Krsna.” You are seeing Krsna. The Deity of Krsna and Krsna is not different. But even personally we can see. Simply we have to continue the enthusiasm. ENTHUSIASM MEANS TO TAKE THINGS VERY SERIOUSLY, UTSAHAD DHAIRYAT, AND PATIENTLY. ALTHOUGH WE ARE DETERMINED TO GO BACK TO HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY FOLLOW THE RULES AND REGULATIONS. So these are the six principles: enthusiasm and firm determination and patience and executing the regulative principles, tat-tat-karma-pravartanat, and SATO VRTTEH, MEANS BEHAVIOR MUST BE VERY HONEST, NO DUPLICITY, AND UTSAHAD DHAIRYAT NISCAYAT TAT-TAT-KARMA-PRAVARTANAT, AND SATO VRTTEH, DEALING MUST BE VERY HONESTLY, NO HYPOCRISY, tat-tat-karma-pravartanat, sadhu-sanga, and in the association of devotees. If you follow these six principles, namely enthusiasm, determination, patience, and executing the regulative principles and keep yourself honest and in the association of devotee, if you follow these six principle, then your success is sure.
     So these are the six principle, positive. Sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati: “By following these six principle, success is assured.” Similarly, there are opposite number. What is that? Atyaharah, eating too much. Atyaharah means eating too much or unnecessarily collecting too much. And prayasah. Prayasah means too much endeavoring for a thing, mean unnecessarily taking some anxiety. Don’t do that. Atyaharah prayasas prajalpah, and talking nonsense, gossiping some subject matter which has no concern with Krsna consciousness. We are accustomed to do that. We should avoid it. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpo niyamagrahah. Niyamagrahah means the positive rules and regulation, simply make a show but not actually realize it. Niyamagrahah, laulyam, and to become very greedy, and jana-sangas ca, and mixing with persons who are not devotee. These six things should be avoided, and the first things should be followed. Then your success in devotional service is sure. (Hrdayananda begins to translate and pauses) Prajalpah, unnecessary gossiping. Just like people are wasting time taking one newspaper and talking for hours. These things should be avoided. And to associate with nondevotees. And greediness. These things should be avoided.

     atyaharah prayasas ca
     prajalpo niyamagrahah
     laulyam jana-sangas ca
     sadbhir bhaktir pranasyati

     If you indulge in these six items, then your devotional service will be finished. And the first six principles means,

     utsahad dhairyad niscayat
     tat-tat-karma-pravartanat
     sato vrtteh sadhu-sange
     sadbhir bhaktih prasidhyati

     By these six principles, you will advance, and the other six principles, you will fall down.

     Reply
204. Raghubir Das says:

     23. April 2013 at 5:28 pm

     There are two different platforms.

     A) managarial system of a Vaishnava institution

     “We are in the experimental stage but in the next meeting of the GBC members they should form a constitution how the GBC members manage the whole affair. But it is a fact that the local president is not under the control of the GBC. Yes, for improvement of situations such as this I must be informed of everything.
     Hoping this will meet you in good health.”
     Your ever well-wisher,
     A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
     ACBS/adb
     (Letter to: Giriraja, London, 12 August, 1971)

     “So try to give me relief from this managerial… (pause) ”
     (April 23, 1977, Bombay)

     B) Transcendental knowledge of sastra

     When we discuss the philosophy of Krishna conciousness we might experience that there is almost no friction among all the Vaishnavas. They all agree, Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we are His eternal servants and bhakti-yoga, devotional service, is our eternal occupation.

     As soon there is discussion about how a Vaishnava society should be organized – particularly who is the leader, things end up with embittered parties. This happened on dozens of Vaishnava forums again and again.

     Solution to all this Gordian knot is given by Prabhupada:

     “Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively.” (Adi 12.8 purport)

     Why not try this? Does Prabhupada approve to endlessly debate (for years) about a philosophical point? Take it from me, Prabhupada solved such kind of controversy immediately. No waste of time. Prabhupada wanted everybody to do his/her service.

     “You mentioned that your pathway has become filled with stumbling blocks, but there are no stumbling blocks, I can kick out all those stumbling blocks immediately, provided you accept my guidance. With one stroke of my kick I can kick out all stumbling blocks.”
     (Letter to: Krsna dasa, Dallas, 9 September, 1972)

     Reply
205. Puranjana das says:

     24. April 2013 at 2:37 am

     Oh oh. Here we go again, “How do we know for sure if one of the GBC gurus might be bona fide.” Well yes this is very helpful, “There — could be, might be, sorta coulda woulda shoulda mabye is — a cure for devotees who get cancer, but I’m not telling you what it is.”

     Thanks a lot pal!

     Srila Prabhupada says when people say — “could be,” “might be,” “hopefully will be” etc., this is called mental speculation. Its a TOTAL waste of time to even hear such foolish theories.

     Just like if someone tells us, there might be a $100,000 bill under one of the trash dumpsters here in San Francisco. Fine! However, unless someone tells us where that bill is, then that means — we would have to waste our whole life looking and guessing. And probably, not ever finding anything ever. A total waste of time and energy.

     The idea that there might be, could be, maybe is, this is what Srila Prabhupada constantly attacks as foolish nonsense speculation. If there is a guru somewhere among the GBC group, we have to know who he is, otherwise, people are wasting their lives playing the GBC guru’s peanut and shell game, and the mass of people are dying in the meantime, because these folks are not going to tell us who that guru is?

     At least we are promoting Srila Prabhupada and his books so we have something tangible to offer. To offer, “Maybe there is $100,000 under one of the dumpsters out there, that is called, “a total waste of time.” What kind of religion preaches that “There might be a guru in our religion, but maybe not,” this is not going to attract many people at all. That is why their temples are empty. Oh oh! Even more trouble in river city, the GBC gurus are now fighting among themselves. http://www.oneiskcon.com/gbc-rejects-narayani-mataji-diksa-guruship-for-now/ ys pd

     Reply
206. Krishna das says:

     24. April 2013 at 8:42 am

     Puranjana prabhu, my use of might be is not a speculative usage. I am confident that there are bonafide spiritual masters in present ISKCON who are sincere followers of Prabhupada. My question was what makes you feel all Gurus are not bonafide? That is in no way a mental speculation, I am confident about it based on the teachings of Prabhupada. Prabhupada has elaborated regarding the symptoms of a spiritual master and I can see many in ISKCON who are on that level and are functioning so.
     Secondly, this is Prabhupada’s statement that when he is no longer with us we must have disciples of his disciple, so he has the ability to empower his followers to become bonafide spiritual masters. Prabhupada is a representative of Krishna and so his words are the words of Krishna Himself. So, when Prabhupada said “granddisciple” Krishna will make sure that granddisciples of Prabhupada will exist in ISKCON. How He will make that happen is up to Him. Please don’t catch just the word but please understand the scenario in which I have used the word.

     Reply
207. Rukmini Ramana dd says:

     24. April 2013 at 9:34 am

     KrishnaDas!

     Not sure if your guru has approved that you divert your attention in performing your service by spending hours and hours to post here?

     FYI, ISKCON’s present system to appoint male “as good as God acaryas” via three-fourths hands-up majority vote will go on. Although meanwhile having produced almost 50 quacksalvers with world wide disastrous financial / reputational damage, GBC insists upon their decision how to select new “maha-bhagavat uttama jagat-gurus” via hands up, eyes closed method.

     After so many years there is still no apology, no comment, no reconsideration, no compensation for loss.

     Even if GBC would reconsider, after so many years of unreasonableness this would be noncredible, this train has left long ago. Or, as Prabhupada puts it, “After some time, when the case is unmanageable, it is detected. Therefore fourth-class men.”

     Therefore, just mind your own business, your GBC will do exactly what they did since past 35 years. Don’t worry about anything. Rather be sure there will be more fall-downs, more betrayed disciples and intelligent Westerners giving this type of tinged guru-tattva interpretation as spread by you the cold shoulder.

     So don’t waste your time here, rather help those victims of latest tragedy in Australia, caused by Prabhavishnu. Now they are having Ramai Swami come under the crosshairs. So you better rush there immediately and help those poor victims on the battlefield. Don’t bother attacking the Prabhupadanugas with endless repetitions.

     Reply
208. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     24. April 2013 at 12:51 pm

     Krishna das says: Prabhupada is a representative of Krishna and so his words are the words of Krishna Himself.

     The pure devotee cannot be held hostage to what he has said in the past. He is free to change his mind, just like we are. Judging from Srila Prabhupada’s final official word on the subject, contained in the July 9, 1977 ritvik henceforward directive, he changed his mind about grand-disciples being allowed within ISKCON. It’s as simple as that.

     Besides, having more than one guru in a relatively small organization like ISKCON doesn’t make any sense. It causes endless conflict, and has turned ISKCON into a dysfunctional family.

     It’s inevitable that a return to Srila Prabhupada’s ingenious ritvik system of initiations will happen within all of ISKCON, not just ISKCON Long Island and ISKCON Bangalore as is presently the case. The longer that the GBC delays the inevitable, the more that they are going to have to suffer.

     Reply
209. Puranjana das says:

     24. April 2013 at 3:23 pm

     Dear Krishna das: Disciple of my disciple? OK, however they kicked out almost all us disciples? There were 5,000 disciples, and they kicked almost all of them out. Lokanatha swami wrote about that in 1988, the temples are all ghost towns, no one is left, where has everyone gone? That is what he noted in 1988, there was no one left hardly.

     The GBC never said what you are saying now, that ALL of the disciples are now going to be their gurus? They said there are only 11 gurus. And when we said some of your gurus are debauchees and deviants, we were banned, beaten and sometimes assassinated. They never implemented your idea that all of us disciples are going to have our own disciples? When was this implemented? Now they are fighting that women cannot be gurus, they never even said that all the women would be gurus, what to speak of the men?

     They kicked out almost all the rest of the disciple group. They never implemented your idea that ALL of the disciples should be included in their process? Not only they banned, beat and / or assassinated most of us “disciples,” some of us (like me) were chased by GBC goondas with baseball bats, and I was saved at the last moment by the police, otherwise I would have been beaten to death.

     Is this the way you folks treat your other co-gurus in your “we are all gurus” idea? Your party bans, beats and kills ALL the other gurus? If your idea is correct, all of us are gurus, this begs the question, why are you folks banning, beating and killing — thousands of other gurus?

     You are then asking, why is this program not bona fide, the program that is violently expelling all the other people that you claim are also gurus? We are all gopi rasika acharyas, so lets kill the 5,000 other gopis and declare that 11 are the best gopis? Have you any idea what your program is doing here? You are essentially saying that gopi level devotees — ban, beat and kill off the other gopis? What is that?

     I personally would have been killed without the FBI intervening, they arrested the GBC guru’s hit man who had a description of my pick up truck in his pocket, they were going after me next. To kill me. That is what the FBI told me.

     I am not sue why you think this is the proper way to treat all of us co-gurus with the GBC, whom you claim are also — gurus, because all the disciples are gurus? Are you trying to tell us that your idea is that other gurus are supposed to be banned, beat and assassinated, so that only 11 can claim to be gurus and all the other gurus are supposed to be viciously oppressed? I am not sure why you are saying we are all gurus and that the GBC guru party is authorized to exterminate all the rest of us gurus like we were termites who need to — die? Who authorized you to declare that we are gurus, and then — to exterminate all of us other people that you claim are also — gurus? This is not making much sense here? All of us are gurus, so call in the hit squad to exterminate all but 11 of the 5,000 group of gurus? Can you try to make sense of your idea — before you express it? I have never heard this before, there are 5,000 gopi rasika gurus here, so lets ban, beat and kill almost all the other gopis? Have you been taking your medications is of course the next self-evident question? ys pd

     Reply
210. Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:

     25. April 2013 at 12:53 pm

     Puranjana das says: …I was saved at the last moment by the police, otherwise I would have been beaten to death…I personally would have been killed without the FBI intervening…

     If Krishna wants to kill me, then no one can save me; if Krishna wants to save me then no one can kill me!

     Krishna obviously had plans for you, Puranjana Prabhu.

     Until the 90s, ISKCON’s pretender gurus had no idea that they would have no power to prevent their “envious” godbrothers from preaching the truth directly to their so-called disciples. Because of Lord Sri Krishna giving us the Internet, their plans for total control over large numbers of hapless followers has been, to a large extent, frustrated.

     Reply
211. Bh. Michael says:

     25. April 2013 at 2:50 pm

     Prabhupada would arrive somewhere on his numerous preaching tours around the world and everywhere scholars, scientists, theologians, famous people, would come to meet him and discuss philosophical questions with Prabhupada.

     This is not the case when present so called “living ISKCON guru, genuine spiritual master” arrives at any metropolis. Nobody cares, no press conference, no news coverage, zero. Previously there was excuse that Prabhupada was an elderly person, so they simply would show him respect, therefore they came.

     There are lots of present ISKCON gurus about same age like when Prabhupada arrived in US. Prabhupada did also not present himself as graduate. Still as it is recorded, so many scholarly person were eager to meet him.

     From “self-effulgent acarya” point of view, people naturally feel attracted to search out enlightened, liberated souls. This hasn’t changed. ISKCON might argue, people are more fallen, more degraded, and therefore won’t respond, don’t want to meet their certified gurus. If this is the understanding then why they stay in the West at all?

     Rather they should go to places where they feel heimish . Of course this might be at present – where?

     “So you try to arrange some big, big speaking programs in various places of the city, all of them being well-advertised and attended by respectable and sober men. Of course, we can talk to any class of men, but I want to speak especially to large numbers of the higher-class or respectable and sober class of men of Calcutta.”
     (Letter to: Bhavananda, Bombay, 29 December, 1972)

     Today they presented GBC resolutions 2013:

     Dina Sharana Devi Dasi, Co-Zonal Secretary with Hridaya Caitanya Das and Ravindra Svarupa Das for:

     France: Dole

     Co-Zonal Secretary with Ravindra Svarupa Das for:

     Austria
     Germany
     Liechtenstein
     Switzerland

     Since Prithu’s resignation 2003, Ravindra svarupa and his team never visited Austria, Liechtenstein, Switzerland. Still, year after year, reconfirmed as GBC. Isn’t there a clause, fine print, failure to act…, obvious idleness…, mismanagement attributed of keeping temples closed…?

     In the meantime KrishnaDas from Philadelphia might do something useful, visit Dr. Ravindra svarupa in New Orleans and check what he is doing all day? Year after year he is voted in as GBC of important countries he never visits and temples kept closed? After all, isn’t this what he likes to rub under everybody’s nose – present living ISKCON gurus are genuine?

     Montreal
     24 June, 1968
     68-06-24
     Los Angeles
     My Dear Aniruddha,
     Please accept my blessings. Just now I understand from Mahapurusa das that you phoned here to inquire whether the temple can be closed for your going to San Francisco on the Rathayatra Festival. Since the temple is started, the temple cannot be closed on any day. This is the serious business of opening a center. In no case, even in the most urgent case, the temple cannot be closed even for a single day.

     Reply
212. Puranjana das says:

     25. April 2013 at 3:36 pm

     They GBC never said that “all of the disciples” are going to be gurus? This is a straw man argument. They said they are only 11, and the rest of us 5,000 have to accept that debauchees are gurus, or we will be banned, beaten and killed. OK there are now those who were voted in by the 11, they expanded the guru franchise business.

     This is also basically what Mr. Stalin did by the way, “everyone” is going to have a big house, opulent facility, many servants, golden tableware etc. just like Mr. Stalin has. Ooops, well sorry, first we need to kill 23 million people, THEN, and I promise!!!! Everyone ELSE will ALSO have a big house and servants like I have! We simply did not accept the Stalin siddhanta, therefore we were a problem for these gurus. Here is what Srila Prabhupada actually said:

     Śrīla Prabhupāda Says – [On leadership in his ISKCON society]

     “…after you, who will take the leadership?” And “Everyone will take, all my disciples. If you want, you can take also. (laughter) But if you follow. They are prepared to sacrifice everything, so they’ll take the leadership. I may, one, go away, but there will be hundreds, and they’ll preach. If you want, you can also become a leader. We have no such thing, that ‘Here is leader.’ Anyone who follows the previous leadership, he’s a leader. ‘Indian,’ we have no such distinction, ‘Indian,’ ‘European.’ ”

     Brahmānanda: They wanted an Indian to be the leader?

     Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) “Everyone, all my disciples, they are leaders. As purely as they follow, they become leader. If you want to follow, you can become a leader. You are Indian. But you don’t want.” I told them that.

     Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they probably wanted to propose somebody who would take over our movement.

     Prabhupāda: Yes. Leaders. All nonsense. Leader means one who has become first-class disciple. He is leader. Evaṁ paramparā-prāpta… One who is perfectly following… Our instruction is ara na kariha mane asa **. You know this? What is that? Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, ara na kariha mane asa **.

     Who is leader? A leader, to become leader, is not very difficult, provided one is prepared to follow the instructions of a bona fide guru.

     [Room Conversation: Vṛndāvan 2 Nov 1977]

     Reply