M. Lallier: I think, perhaps, there is some peoples for whom there is no difference between the soul and body.
Prabhupada: Who says?
M. Lallier: Oh, spiritual masters.
Prabhupada: Who’s that spiritual master, says soul and body there is no difference?
M. Lallier: Oh, I don’t know very… I think you are one of them. Or…?
Prabhupada: No, we don’t say. We say spirit soul is different from the body. Just like you are living, staying in this room. The room and you are two separate things. Because you are staying in the room, it does not mean you are room, or the room is your self. Does it mean?
M. Lallier: Yes.
Prabhupada: It means so? Because you are staying in this room, you are this room?
M. Lallier: No. But… No, I… I understand that… There is some difficulties for me about the signification of two Sanskrit words which are purusa and prakrti. Is there any relation between those two, those two…?
Prabhupada: Yes. Purusa means the enjoyer, and praká¹›ti means the enjoyed.
M. Lallier: I learned before that purusa means the great man.
Disciple: He says he also learned somewhere that purusa can refer to any great man or great person.
Prabhupada: So in the material world everyone thinks that he’s very great person. That is the disease. Everyone thinks that “I am the great.” This is called maya.
M. Lallier: Yes, I… Yes, Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore, the living entity is called purusa, and that purusa wants to enjoy the prakrti.
M. Lallier: Is it possible to… (French)
Disciple: Is it possible for the soul to enjoy the material nature?
Prabhupada: It is not possible, but he’s trying to do that. That is the disease. Just like in your country, Napoleon, he tried his best to use whole Europe to be controlled by him. So he made some attempt, but he is finished now. The Europe is there, but he’s gone away. Similarly, it is just like… The example is: Just like a fly wants to enjoy the fire. He comes with force there, and he is finished. Similarly, in this material world, every, all living entities, they’re trying to enjoy. With great force, they are coming. And different capacities, they try to enjoy, but they themselves become finished. The things remain where it was. So so many living entities. The example, the fly is very proper. So many flies are coming, (makes sound:) “Phut! Phut! Phut! Phut!” in the big fire. You have no experience here?
Jyotirmayi: Yes.
M. Lallier: Why living entities does go to material…?
Disciple: Why does the living entity try to enjoy material nature in such a way?
Prabhupada: The, the… When he forgets that he cannot enjoy, the only enjoyer is God, Krsna, when he forgets this principle he wants to enjoy.
M. Lallier: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is called illusion, maya. Actually, he cannot enjoy, but, forgetting Krsna, the real enjoyer, he wants to enjoy. That is his… Just like a child imitates the mother for cooking. The other day, in Geneva, the fire ceremony was going on. The mother was offering oblations, and the child also immediately took some and he… You have seen that?
So he’s not fit for that business, but he imitates. That is childish. Sometimes goes to the kitchen, wants to make foodstuff, preparation, and he is given some toys that “You just play with it.” So every living entity is part and parcel of God. So God is enjoyer, God is controller. So he wants to imitate God. That is called maya.
Disciple: So what should the soul do if he cannot imitate God?
Prabhupada: Yes, the soul… Just like the same example. The child should be guided by the father and mother. Similarly, we should be guided by God, Krsna. That is our normal life. And the guidance is given personally by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita. So if you follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, and be guided by God, then you are happy exactly like a child is happy when he’s under the protection of the parents.
Room Conversation
with M. Lallier, noted French Poet
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
June 12, 1974, Paris
pamho agtACBP
Even between the bodies of the pure devotees and the body of Krsna there is difference, I mean the saguna and nirguna forms are a science. It’s the science of God to understand the way out from the saguna elements which will stay alive through the supreme will of SRI KRSNA for a short time, I mean all the saguna material forms will get forgotten through the factor time, but we got the chance through this temporary saguna form made by material elements to become free by finding out the real difference between the material and spiritual forms.
Yes it’s true, everyone comes in this third class world to enjoy but we get cheated when we try to be the enjoyer, is not jut the fake reflection but also the ugly difference between matter and spirit, I mean there are dirty things coming out from the material body which stop wise people to enjoy by understanding the difference of the scientific saguna and nirguna forms. The only purpose of this material body is to be situated beyond dirty things by finding out the blissful pure spiritual body that’s real enjoyment.
Of course our senses are not pure at the moment therefore we can’t taste that blissfull taste coming from our svarupa murti bodies at the moment, I mean almost everyone is trying to get pleasure by tasting the stools coming out from the material body, that’s the stink pleasure they get when they come to this world to enjoy, and unless one gets disgusted by this horrible taste one is forced to deal with stools by eating stools until one comes to the spiritual understanding between the difference of material and spiritual forms. Many saguna forms of maha bhagavata devotees already disappeared, but they are still teaching us through their eternal vani seva that the journey of the spiritual soul is different from the journey of the material body.
For example SRILA PRABHUPADA is still with us, but so many rascals and fools say can you speak with HIM physically? This is the rascaldom of all the fake devotees, they haven’t got enough brain to understand the clear difference between the matter and the spirit. We can’t live in this miserable condition forever by Krsna’s mercy, I mean we have to get out because of the saguna material elements form which are not eternal by being born from the refusal to serve Krsna.
If we want to become eternal again then we need to given up the attachment for these stink temporary and troublesome material forms.
agtSP ys haribol