http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/09-13/editorials10724.htm
PADA, USA: Once again, there is criticism of an ISKCON related program, this time the “Holi” festival in Utah. Fine — except for the fact that — there appears to be hardly any other “real” programs going on anywhere else, so then what?
The reason people are even discussing the Gaura Vani Kirtaniyas, various New Age Kirtanas that “charge money to attend” (of which we have many such programs here in the Bay Area), the Holi festival, and so on and so forth, is simple really — there are hardly any other programs to discuss?
Why are we not seeing advertising for the right programs, but mainly criticism of the wrong programs? Where are the bona fide “Lord Chaitanya’s samkirtana movement” kirtana programs going on? We simply barely or rarely see these programs going on, as Aindra prabhu was fond of telling us.
To simply stop these Holi type festivals will not help matters that much, or at all, unless there are some more positive alternatives to replace all this with. Where are the bona fide programs going on, except for the most part, on very small scale proportions in very small projects? Thousands of young people attended the last Utah festival, and there was some sorts of chanting going on, so if we stop that, then there will be — no chanting at all? Not sure why that is the better idea?
In the same way, there are groups of nattering old ladies always gossiping about PADA, because there is nothing else for these people to discuss? They simply do not have a life of their own, or a better program to advertise. Srila Prabhupada says, in the desert the castor bean plant is prominent, because there are no other plants. So the Gaura Vani Kirtaniyas, Holi festivals, and / or PADA (and so forth) become prominent topics because, there is nothing else going on to talk about?
Meanwhile, in Vancouver, where Rocana lives, we have a wonderful standard style Prabhupadanuga kirtana program going on there. Does Rocana advertise for this straight forward kirtana program going on there? Nope. Does he attend? Nope. Does he even recognize this program? Nope. So this seems all like sour grapes, Rocana claims to want to see the standard program, but he does not even support that process in his own back yard. We need to start the real bona fide programs and that will replace the bogus programs, at least that is what Aindra was saying. We think Aindra was correct. ys pd
Rocan das posted the following quote on today’s Sampradaya Sun:
“It is said that a single pure devotee of the Lord can deliver all the fallen souls of the world.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 2.8.5)
Then why does he deny Srila Prabhupada the right to accept disciples from all over the world even to this day?
Elsehwere Rocan das has criticized what he refers to as the “rtvik” notion that Srila Prabhupada lives forever in his instructions, but instead Srila Prabhupada is gone, departed, etc. Yet he continues to promote Srila Prabhupada by way of articles, quotes and pictures on his website.
Can anyone understand or explain the contradiction in his philosophy? As I’ve said before, it appears that he might himself want to be the next acarya in disciplic succession. Or at least he sounds like a frustrated guru. What do you think?
P.S. Rocan das actively supported the appointment of the 11 “acaryas” as bona fide diksa gurus after Srila Prabhupada’s departure and he served as “Regional Secretary.” He only changed his views in this regard later on (incidentally after he lost his position).
LW says: “P.S. Rocan das actively supported the appointment of the 11 “acaryas” as bona fide diksa gurus after Srila Prabhupada’s departure and he served as “Regional Secretary.” He only changed his views in this regard later on (incidentally after he lost his position).”
Of course, Rocana dasa changed his views when he lost his position for the profit, adoration and distinction which is instilled very subtly in the mind of conditioned jivas.
As you pointed out nicely that Rocana does contradicts his own statements even with or without his noticing it because of his personal motivation for labha-puja-pratistha some sort in the disguise of spreading KC at his conditional level.
Hope it helps.
LW says: …it appears that [Rocana Dasa] might himself want to be the next acarya in disciplic succession. Or at least he sounds like a frustrated guru. What do you think?
You’ve hit the nail on the head, LW Prabhu!
Rocana Dasa:
1. …is guilty of the worst possible wife abuse by divorcing one or more of his then current wives.
2. …has demonstrated over the years that he is completely incapable of displaying even a modicum of Vaisnava humility.
3. …wants to be a guru, but is not qualified even by the ISKCON GBC’s low standards.
4. …is yet again re-married, but even though he sleeps with his “wife” in a big double bed, he has not given his “wife” any children!
5. …tried to get disciples outside of ISKCON, but found that the only way that he could do that was to legally marry a prospective female disciple!
6. …has given his “wife” a spiritual name.
7. …has not allowed his “wife” to take initiation from a guru other than himself.
8. …does not have enough spiritual potency to get his “wife” to chant 16 rounds.
9. …does not follow the 4 regulative principles, and, obviously, neither does his “wife.”
Why do I put “wife” in quotes? Because he does not have a husband-wife relationship in that there are no children being produced. Obviously they have an extremely abominable guru-disciple relationship which involves illicit sex between the guru and his disciple. This is like a teacher having sex with his student or a father having sex with his daughter. Extremely disgusting and abominable! Completely against even the lowest standards of Vedic principles.
How do they avoid having children? Abortion as a backup for failed birth control?
If you still want to associate with this lower-than-the-average-karmi rascal, then be my guest!
By the way, any article submitted to the Sampradaya Sun which mentions http://rtvik.com/ is automatically banned! Why? Because Rocana is not interested in the truth. He is only interested in his own name and fame.
Thank you both for your sober and illuminating posts, Amar Puri and Pratyatosa Prabhus.
Pratyatosa Prabhu, your nine point analysis is amazingly spot on.
The lack of humility is definitely a very big problem. It’s a shame because if it was present, Rocan could possibly make a good ritvik (provided he follow the other principles properly as you mention).
I have wondered about the spiritual name of the current “wife” as well. You seem to have some inside info not known publicly. You, in fact, have hit a number of nails on the head.
If Rocan could only humble himself and hear the simple instruction that Srila Prabhupada gave in two simple words as a reply to Satsvarupa’s question about how initiations will go after Prabhupada’s departure:
Satsvarupa: “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted.”
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya.”
Tamal Krsna: “Is that called ritvik acarya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik. Yes.”
Those two words say it all. In fact, they’d be perfect on a t-shirt: “Ritvik. Yes.” — Srila Prabhupada
Once again, the question, “Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US.” (emphasis mine)
Simple for the simple. One time Prabhupada said in London that “Krishna Consciousness is so simple that you will miss it.”
It’s quite apparent from the large archive of Rocan’s articles on SS that he thinks very highly of his own writings. His “wife” is very good at design and layout and if only their presentation was based on Prabhupada’s clear instruction as per above. (Kali-yuga, I guess.)
One other point. A good editor should not be so opinionated, banning articles that don’t agree with his own philosophy. That’s not very professional. Why be so afraid? Let the reader decide for him or herself. May the best author win.
Thanks once again for taking the time to respond.
Good article by Puranjana Prabhu as well.
Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
P.S. I just visited http://rtvik.com/. Beautiful site. Will go back for more. Thank you.
LW says: The lack of humility is definitely a very big problem. It’s a shame because if it was present, Rocan could possibly make a good ritvik (provided he follow the other principles properly as you mention).
We Ritviks would welcome him with open arms. If he were a humble Ritvik, then his other shortcomings would no longer be so important. Please let me explain:
It’s not that us Ritviks are necessarily very saintly characters. Our main qualification is simply that we wholeheartedly accept what Srila Prabhupada prescribed in his July 9th directive to all GBC men/temple presidents: ritvik henceforward! But if someone opposes this crystal-clear directive and puts himself forward as desiring to replace Prabhupada as a diksa guru within ISKCON and/or he is an offensive ritvik-basher, then he deserves to have his activities very carefully scrutinized.
“It’s not that us Ritviks are necessarily very saintly characters.”
You are as “saintly” as Jayathirta, Kirtanandana and Umapati. Oke, maybe no drugs dealing and pedophyle activities. But gambling an illicit sex within and outside of married life is no problem at all for the ritviks. Apart from blaspheming, of course.
Ritviks, determined ignorant and unrealised and creating an enemy to cover up their own degraded, conditioned activities.
You would think that devotees would be honored to act as representatives of the acarya and that they would be happy to serve as links to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Why does everyone immediately want the topmost position, i.e diksa guru? In fact, if one of these “gurus” would humbly step down and publicly announce a change of heart towards following the ritvik order, they would be glorified and receive so much prestige and benefits. And someone like Rocan could carve himself a lovely niche in such a role. To be humble is desirable. If only they knew.
@LW
Ritvik is for unrealised nitwits. It is for those who like to remain conditioned, who like to blaspheme and who like to stereotype.
Indeed, it’s for the unintelligent people. For The anti-buddhi tribal people. For those are very stubbornly determined to remain without relationship with Sri Krsna, the sole object of spiritual life …
Pratyatosa das says: “It’s not that us Ritviks are necessarily very saintly characters. Our main qualification is simply that we wholeheartedly accept what Srila Prabhupada prescribed in his July 9th directive to all GBC men/temple presidents: ritvik henceforward!”hereas his Spiritual Master(and diksha guru at the same time ) writes:
“After the student studies the Vedas under the master for a period from five to twenty years, he may become a man of perfect character. Study of the Vedas is not meant for the recreation of armchair speculators, but for the formation of character.”Bhagavad-gita As It Is (1972) : Bg 8: Attaining the Supreme, PURPORT.
I don’t want to offend you, ypou are my senior, but it’s another proof that you are changing the work of acarya while trying push forward your ridiculous “henceforward” fraud.
LW says ; ” Why does everyone immediately want the topmost position, i.e diksa guru?”
The answer is very simply; Labha, Puja and Prathistha.
Otherwise, any other reason seems contradictory to become Diksa guru accepting ones own disciples in Iskcon where Srila Prabhupada probhibits so. Therefore, occupying the position of Srila Prabhupada is contradictory.
As per the Instructions of HDG. Srila Prabhupada says ;
“I do not know why our students who are supposed to be the leaders of this movement will fight amongst themselves for supremacy. Our whole process is of surrendering. We are taught to address others as Prabhu. Prabhu means master; and the leader of the masters is called Prabhupada. So if the Prabhus have surrendered to the Prabhupada, why there shall be such mentality of occupying the superior position? This is contradictory.”
SRILA PRABHUPADA Letter to: Bali-mardana, Upendra – Los Angeles, 10 May, 1970
(Certificate of Incorporation: Jan 12 1976) ;
“Srila Prabhupada shall be the supreme power with respect to all matters of the Society, and that status shall not be occupied by or shared with any other individual, either during his lifetime, OR AFTER HIS DEATH.”
“So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavour. Whether I am present or not present it doesn’t matter.” (Śrīla Prabhupāda, arrival conversation, May 17th, 1977, Vṛndāvan
“The devotee Bhāgavata is a direct representative of Bhagavān, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhāgavata one can receive the benefit of the Book Bhāgavata.” [Śrīmad Bhāgavatam Canto 1: Chapter Two, Text 18]
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda when you’re not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise…
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Well the questions and answ…answers are there in my books.
(Śrīla Prabhupāda, morning walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)
“So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.” (Śrīla Prabhupāda, letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)
“My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years”
Hope the above Instructions of Srila Prabhupada find the readers satisfactory.
Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.
Amar Puri says: “My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years”
Maybe Srila Prabhupada said this; maybe he didn’t. This was first quoted by Satsvarupa, but can he be trusted?
Here are 26 different versions of another oft repeated quote which was first quoted by Satasvarupa. (You can tell that a person is lying if his story keeps changing.):
“Your love for me will be shown…
1. … by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone.” (Satsvarupa in “Srila Prabhupada-Lilamrta: Uniting Two Worlds” and in “Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON”)
2. … by how you cooperate among yourselves.” (Satsvarupa in Back to Godhead Magazine #225-06, 1991)
3. … by how you cooperate with each other.” (Satsvarupa in “Srila Prabhupada’s Last Lessons: How to Die and How to Love” and in “These Are My Last Days August 17 – November 13, 1977″)
4. … by how much you cooperate with each other.”
5. … by how you cooperate among yourselves after I have gone.”
6. … when you cooperate together.”
7. … by the way you cooperate among yourselves when I am gone.”
8. … by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone.”
9. … by how well you cooperate together.”
10. … by how well you cooperate.”
11. … by how well you cooperate together.”
12. … by how you work and cooperate together.”
13. … by how much you work together.”
14. … by how well you cooperate to spread this Krsna consciousness movement.”
15. … by how much you cooperate.”
16. … by how much you cooperate with each other.”
17. … by how you co-operate with one another after I am gone.
18. … by how you cooperate together to serve me after I am gone.
19. … by how you co-operate to keep this institution together.
20. … by your co-operation.”
21. … by how you cooperate with one another after I am gone.”
22. … by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together when I am gone.”
23. … by how you cooperate.”
24. … by how you cooperate to push on this movement,”
25. … by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone.
26. … by how you cooperate to push on this Krsna consciousness movement.”
This quote obviously originated with Satsvarupa when he included it in the Lilamrta. But even he can’t keep the quote straight as you can see from numbers 1, 2 and 3 above.
Numbers 4 through 25 are from Vyasa-puja offerings by ISKCON “biggies” as they were published in VedaBase 2003.
#26, is from a Chakra.org article.
None of these 26 different versions, supposedly of the same statement by Srila Prabhupada, can be found in the VedaBase as having been spoken by Srila Prabhupada himself.
These ISKCON “biggies” obviously don’t take quoting Srila Prabhupada very seriously. They seem to simply quote from memory from something they heard or read, assuming it to be true without double checking. Could it be that they are self-motivated? How can we take them seriously?
These quotes are obviously all part of the self-motivated ISKCON propaganda machine. What the individual writers are actually saying is, “Your love for Srila Prabhupada will be shown by the degree in which you follow my orders!”
Pratyatosa prabhu says in his comments: ” Maybe Srila Prabhupada said this; maybe he didn’t……”
In the Purport, S.B.8.5.23, HDG Srila Prabhupada explains it:
“When Kṛṣṇa appeared, He gave His orders, and when Kṛṣṇa Himself appeared as a devotee, as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He showed us the path by which to cross the ocean of Kali-yuga. That is the path of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. When Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sańkīrtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sańkīrtana movement and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, the fallen souls of this Kali-yuga will be delivered. After the Battle of Kurukṣetra, at which Bhagavad-gītā was spoken, Kali-yuga continues for 432,000 years, of which only 5,000 years have passed. Thus there is still a balance of 427,000 years to come. Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sańkīrtana movement inaugurated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.”
Furthermore, the same 10,000 years of the Sankirtana Movement inaugurated by Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, HDG. Srila Prabhupada mentions as quoted below during the room conversation with Allen Ginsberg on May 13, 1969 in Columbus, Ohio.
Prabhupada: No, Hare Krsna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krsna.
Therefore, it is not coming from Satsvarupa swami as you mentioned in your comments, Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu. It is coming directly from HDG. Srila Prabhupada Himself.
This is being conveyed for clarification.
Hope it meets well.
Hari Bol.
All Glories To Srila Prabhupada.
Amar Puri says Therefore, it is not coming from Satsvarupa swami as you mentioned in your comments, Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu. It is coming directly from HDG. Srila Prabhupada Himself.
But there is no proof that Srila Prabhupada actually said, “My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years.” Simply hearsay from a very questionable source. It is common knowledge that the 11 “appointed gurus,” lead by Satsvarupa, were making up new “Prabhupada said” quotes at the time of the GBC meetings in early 1978 in order to make their illegal takeover of ISKCON easier.
It’s obvious that all of the variations of “Your love for me will be shown by how much you cooperate to keep this institution together after I am gone” was one of their self-motivated concoctions. “My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years” might have been another.
Here is some newly posted eye-witness testimony as to just how willing these rascals were to stretch/twist the truth in order to help promote their self-motivated agenda:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/8QDAtFsX560
Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu, I agree with you on the construction of the sentence which reads as: “My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years.” It is not the wording of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada which is no where to be found or read in the quotes I quoted in my comments.
However, my concern remains that Srila Prabhupada did say the words, “..Of these 427,000 years, the 10,000 years of the sańkīrtana movement inaugurated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.”
And further Srila Prabhupada said the same in the conversation with Allen Ginsberg: “Prabhupada: No, Hare Krsna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krsna.”
That is why Srila Prabhupada emphasizes always, “distribute books, distribute books, distribute books”, so that the conditioned jivas may be saved and delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead.
That was / is my only concern, Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu.
Regarding this particular statement, “My books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years.” composed by Satsvaroup swami as you first pointed out which is only a hearsay and / or remains a very questionable one, I have no further comments to that but to accept and believe that perhaps Satsvaroup swami did make out his very own statements based on the essence of the wordings …. ten thousand years ……and emphasizing distribute books such wording of Srila Prabhupada does exist.
I must admit that up until now I did not realize that this particular statement, “my books will be the law books for the next ten thousand years” is not from HDG Srila Prabhupada. Therefore, I did not bother to check it out.
My sincere thanks and appreciation go to Pratyatosa dasa Prabhu for further clarifying and checking it out in depth what is not authentic coming from HDG Srila Prabhupada.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and His sincere and serious followers all over the world who are SELFLESSLY contributing in the mission of HDG Srila Prabhupada for the 10,000 years to come as quoted.
OM TAT SAT.