By Narasimha Das
[Note: I wrote a version of this article by hand (minus the parts in brackets) and gave it to Tamal Krsna Gosvami in late 1979 when we were staying at our ISKCON farm project in Oklahoma. The next day when I brought him his lunch, I noticed he had “Krsna Book” opened to Chapter 77. He said, “Let’s discuss your article.” He got an urgent call right after lunch, and we never had that discussion. But he gave me permission to leave his “zone”, and shortly thereafter he spoke his famous Topanga Canyon confessions, wherein he frankly admitted Srila Prabhupada had never appointed any gurus.]
In Srila Prabhupada’s KRSNA BOOK, Chapter 77, we find the story of Romaharsana Suta. This man was a learned transcendentalist and direct disciple of Srila Vyasadeva. But he was not a pure devotee. Srila Prabhupada explains: “his transcendental realization was not perfect.”
Just prior to the advent of the age of Kali, many great sages and saintly persons gathered at the holy place of Naimisaranya to perform a great sacrifice via the recitation of the pastimes of the Supreme Lord and His pure devotees. Such narrations are found in the Puranas, such as Srimad-Bhagavatam and Mahabharata, and in other authorized scriptures. In Vedic culture, advanced devotees well-versed in these scriptures would often lead long discourses and discussions of these important topics. Unlike the modern-day bhagavat-saptas performed by professional speakers to impress laymen for sake of their own financial gain, these meetings were attended almost exclusively by ascetics and yogis, or serious transcendentalists eager to develop full Krishna consciousness.
Romharsana Suta had studied all the Vedas and Puranas under the personal guidance of Srila Vyasadeva, the literary incarnation of God. Therefore he had been elected to sit on the vyasasana at the great assembly of transcendentalists, even though he had not been born in a lineage of pure brahmins. We find many examples mentioned in Srila Prabhupada books wherein a person not born in a family of brahmins had achieved the position of a brahmin or acarya by virtue of training, staunch sadhana and realization in Krishna consciousness. Srila Haridas Thakura, for instance, who was born in a family of Mohammedans, was recognized as the best devotee and given the title of nama-acarya by Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. Srila Haridas Thakura, however, was the emblem of humility and never considered himself a great devotee or teacher of Vaisnavas.
Romaharsana Suta was not a devotee on the level of Haridas Thakura. In spite of his learning and exalted status, he had failed to perfectly realize his constitutional position as a tiny part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Rather he imagined himself to be the greatest sadhu. He dared to sit on the vyasasana–even in the presence of many learned devotees who hailed from dynasties of pure and exalted brahmins or brahma-rishis. Moreover, when everyone else stood up and offered obeisance to welcome Lord Balarama, Romaharsana Suta remained seated. Srila Prabhupada mentions that he should have followed the example of all the other learned sages present by standing to receive Lord Balarama.
[Note: Srila Prabhupada’s “Nectar of Devotion” states that everyone should stand up to greet the Deities. No one should remain seated.]
Srila Prabhupada writes: “When Lord Balarama saw that Romahasana Suta did not understand the highest principle of religiousness in spite of having studied all the Vedas, He certainly could not support his position. Romaharsana had been given the chance to become a perfect brahmana, but because of his ill behavior in his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his low birth was immediately remembered… “
What is the highest principle of religiousness? If a brahmin does not know the answer to this question and has not realized the import of all the Vedas, then he should not think of himself as guru or exalted leader among Vaisnavas and saintly persons. If he does so, he may make the mistake of Romaharsana and think himself as exalted as Lord Balarama or His empowered representative. Srila Prabhupada mentions elsewhere in this connection: “One should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such behavior one will eventually become degraded.”
Both Lord Krishna and Lord Balarama killed many obnoxiously sinful persons in the course of Their transcendental pastimes. All of these persons were guilty of killing, abusing and/or raping many innocent people, including brahmins, cows, women and children. None of these sinfully violent and disruptive demons were brahmins or sadhus or disciples of great devotees like Srila Vyasadeva. Yet Lord Balarama considered Romaharsana Suta, a direct disciple of Vyasadeva, to be equally dangerous and destructive, like the other grossly sinful demons He had killed.
We may wonder why the Personality of Godhead, Lord Balarama, would severely punish a sadhu seated as guru, even a voted-in, low-born “guru” like Romaharsana Suta, when, in fact, He had spared and even befriended men like Duryodhana. Krishna had even spared the Kaliya serpent, who had poisoned the waters of the Yamuna and caused death in Vrindaban among Krishna’s intimate devotees. So why did Lord Balarama kill Romaharsana Suta, who was seated as guru and blessed by the great sages at Naimisaranya with long life? Srila Prabhupada explains: “Because Romaharsana’s transcendental realization was not perfect, Lord Balarama remembered his pratiloma (mixed caste) heritage. The idea is that any man can be given the chance become a brahmana, but if he improperly uses the position of a brahmana without actual realization, then his elevation to the brahminical position is not valid.”
These statements above (and others below) suggest low-born persons without full realization in Krishna consciousness should carefully avoid coveting the post of guru. Unless one is a fully self-realized soul ordered by guru and Krishna to act as acarya, he should avoid thinking of himself as a diksa-guru, or an exalted Vaisnava capable of delivering transcendental knowledge to new students of Krishna consciousness. “One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.” Citing Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Srila Prabhupada has specifically warned, “Our men, some of them, are becoming sahajiyas. My guru-maharaja has said, ‘When our men will become sahajiyas, oh, they will be more dangerous!’ ”
In other words, low-born, voted-in “gurus” who exploit the sentiments of persons attracted to the path of Krishna consciousness may be as dangerous as those who kill or cause physical harm to others, or those who deliberately disrupt Vedic culture, such as evil kings like Kamsa. We find no mention in this story that Romaharsana Suta was preaching false siddhanta (like mayavad or sunyavad) or was ignorant of Vedic instructions or had grossly deviated from the correct path of sadhana. So, then, what was his terrible mistake for which he received the death penalty? Lord Balarama killed him because he was posing as guru without being fully self-realized. Although he was elected to the acarya post by the assembly of learned sages, his acceptance of this post was false due to the fact that his “transcendental realization was not perfect.”
Srila Prabhupada writes: “After seeing the deficiency of realization in Romaharsana Suta, Lord Balarama decided to chastise him for being puffed up. Lord Balarama therefore said, ‘This man is liable to be awarded the death punishment because, although he has the good qualification of being a disciple of Lord Vyasadeva and although he has studied all the Vedic literatures from this exalted personality, he was not submissive in the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ “
Srila Prabhupada continues: “From this we can understand that when one is puffed up by material acquisition, he cannot acquire the gentle behavior befitting a brahmana. The learning of such a person is as good as a valuable jewel on the head of a serpent. Despite the valuable jewel on the hood, a serpent is still a serpent and is as fearful as an ordinary serpent. If a person does not become meek and humble, all his study of the Vedas and Puranas and his vast knowledge in the sastras become simply outward dress, like the costume of a theatrical artist dancing on stage. Lord Balarama began to consider thus, ‘I have appeared in order to chastise false persons who are internally impure but externally pose themselves to be very learned and religious. My killing of such persons is proper to check them from further sinful activity.’ “
Srila Prabhupada concludes, “Considering these points, He killed Romaharsana Suta simply by striking him with kusa straw, which is nothing but a blade of grass.”
All the brahmins and sages present there were much aggrieved by this act of the Lord. They all humbly requested the Lord to atone for this action as an example for ordinary human beings. They said, “He was seated on the vyasasana by our election, and when one is seated on the vysasana, it is improper for him to stand up to receive a person. Moreover, we awarded Romaharsana Suta an undisturbed duration of life…” Lord Balarama agreed, saying, “Yes, I must atone for this action, which may have been proper for Me, but is improper for others; therefore, I think it is My duty to execute a suitable act of atonement enjoined in the authorized scriptures…”
Lord Balarama offered to restore the life of Romaharsana, but the learned sages decided they should not nullify the action of Lord Balarama. Following Lord Baladeva’s suggestion, they agreed that their blessings of long life and other benedictions could be transferred to Urgrasava Suta, the son of Romaharsana Suta, who became forever famous as the most illustrious Sri Suta Gosvami. In this way, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Baladeva, removed a false guru and established a genuinely realized soul as leader of the assembly. Thus the stage was set for the continuous performance of pure sravana, kirtana, smarana at this monumental transcendental sacrifice for the benefit of the whole world.
In His purports to Sri Isopanisad, Srila Prabhupada repeatedly stresses that one must hear from and accept only an “undisturbed acarya” to get relief from the bondage of the powerful illusory energy of the Lord. “Unless one hears from the bona fide acarya, who is never disturbed by the changes of the material world, one cannot have the real key to transcendental knowledge.” And throughout His books He emphatically stresses: “One who is disturbed by the whirlpool movements of the material energy is not qualified to become an acarya.” (Sri Isopanisad, Mantra Thirteen, Purport.)
[Final note: Only the Supreme Lord or His deputed agents like Lord Yama can properly chastise false gurus and other miscreants. This is not the duty of ordinary devotees and preachers. It is the duty of some preachers, however, to expose the false ideas promoted by ignorant or envious persons, especially those posing as brahmins and gurus.
A few years ago, I heard that Tamal Krishna Gosvami had been killed in the holy land near Krishna Nagar, apparently without a mark or blood on his body. A senior devotee, who went to identify his body right afterwards, told us his face appeared frozen in fright but there were no major injuries visible on his body. Hearing this, I remembered the picture in Krsna Book of Romaharsana Suta’s frightened face when Balarama killed him, without the usual blood and gore, simply with a blade of grass. I was not happy to hear this news of the demise of Tamal Krsna Gosvami but was amazed to contemplate the causeless mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Balarama. “And as soon as he [the upstart] learns that Guru Maharaja is dead, ‘Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru.’ Then he’s finished.” (Conv. Aug. 16, 1976, Bombay)]
Additional References:
“As soon as a foolish disciple tries to overtake his spiritual master and becomes ambitious to occupy his post, he immediately falls down.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.12.14, Purport.)
“A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. Otherwise nobody can become guru.” (Conversation, October 28, 1975, Nairobi.)
“When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of guru.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya, 24.330, Purport, citing Padma Purana.)
“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, ‘I am a first-class devotee.’ Such thinking should be avoided. It best not to accept any disciples.” (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 7.130, Purport.)
“If everyone just initiates, there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will only be failure.” (From the Palguna Krishna Pancami, a poem by Srila Prabhupada, 1961.)
“One should consider the Acharya to be as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In spite of these instructions, if one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed. His study of the Vedas and his austerities and penances for enlightenment are useless, like the bathing of an elephant.”
“However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded.” (Nectar of Instruction, Verse Five, Purport)
“They did even consider with common sense—that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why he did not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insisted upon it. The declared some unfit person to become acarya. And then another—‘Acarya!’ Another—‘Acarya!’ So better to remain a foolish [simple] person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection. And as soon as he [the upstart] learns that Guru Maharaja is dead, ‘Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru.’ Then he’s finished.” (Conv. Aug. 16, 1976, Bombay)
pamho agtACBSP, DURGA PUJA KI JAI
What is kind of dangerous for the Prabhupadanuga process is that meanwhile lots of senior ISKCONites turned ritvik into a four-letter word. And nobody protests. This is highly deceptive and misleading.
Ritvik means on behalf of. Brahmana is supposed to teach sabda brahma, perfect knowledge, like, Sri Bhagavan uvaca. As soon a brahmana repeats sastra he’s a ritvik. On behalf of sastra. Similarly, on behalf of guru.
A brahmana who presents his own mumbo jumbo is bogus. As soon a brahmana repeats the teachings of his guru, he’s a ritvik and bona fide. So all this talk about power-hungry ritviks who are nothing but control freaks is just foolish. Every brahmana who teaches spiritual knowledge is a ritvik who speaks on behalf of guru, sastra, sadhu.
GBC passed resolutions that ritvikism is banned. How can they ban ritvikism? Vaishnavism is nothing but ritvik, to repeat what Krishna has said. So these are foolish proposals and speculations. You cannot ban ritvik. It is like saying, you cannot deliver Krishna’s message.
Sankirtan movement is super protected for another 9.500 years of golden age through the mercy of Panca-tattva therefore nobody can take over iskcon. Don’t sit on the vyasasana, you are unfit to sit there, all the robbers of iskcon got smashed and the future robbers also will get smashed until they surrender by understanding the real form of this transcendental movement which is not different from SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA, agtSP
ys haribol
abhaya carana seva das says:
11. October 2013 at 11:43 am
“Ritvik means on behalf of. Brahmana is supposed to teach sabda brahma, perfect knowledge, like, Sri Bhagavan uvaca. As soon a brahmana repeats sastra he’s a ritvik. On behalf of sastra.
Similarly, on behalf of guru.”
“Vaishnavism is nothing but ritvik, to repeat what Krishna has said. So these are foolish proposals and speculations. You cannot ban ritvik. It is like saying, you cannot deliver Krishna’s message.”
=============================
SG — Congratulations! Now, you have joined the ranks of those delusional ritvik fools – Amar Puri, Mahesh Raja and some others, who are in the habit of always talking foolishly.
Srila Prabhupada discription of ritvik in Srimad – Bhagavatam:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 .
Some examples : SB –
4.6.1 – sa-rtvik sabhya -with all the priests and members of the sacrificial assembly.
4.5.7 – rtvija – the priests
4.5.18 – rtvija – the priests
4.7.16 – rtvik – the priests
4.7.27 – rtvija – the priests
4.7.45 – rtvija – the priests
HARE KRSNA
pamho agtACBSP, agreed, unqualified ritviks are deluded because a real ritvik never gives wrong information to anyone.
Whoever delivers things as it is as our beloved acharya never disobeys Lord Caitanya’s teachings therefore nobody gets deluded by such a ritvik.
Delusion occurs when transcendental knowledge is not properly transmitted.
Therefore we should always present quote. Those who won’t back up their writing with quote are not properly understanding how parampara system is working.
And, even if you study Vedic literature, without bhakti you cannot understand the Absolute Truth.
Our real business is to go back home not competition for supremacy, cooperation is a sign of love for our guru maharaj therefore never disrespect the habit of the talking of other devotees, it’s against the vaisnava etiquette, but we can help each other to get better in the service of SRILA PRABHUPADA,
agtSP ys
haribol
SG. my humble suggestion to you is that please try to read and understand first what you write, and then give an example of what you accuse the persons for who are involved in your comments ;
” SG — Congratulations! Now, you have joined the ranks of those delusional ritvik fools — Amar Puri, Mahesh Raja and some others, who are in the habit of always talking foolishly.”
Since, you certainly have a problem understanding and accepting the Rtvik Instructions of Initiations by Srila Prabhupada in His Iskcon Organization world wide, therefore, it should behove you by now to put forth your concern in order to rectify your misunderstanding. Does it not make sense to you, SG ?
Otherwise, please I beg from you kindly STOP writing because you are writing simply like a mad – angry person.
I invite your constructive criticism for mutually better understanding of US all.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It almost really does not matter what name you call the neophytes, you can call them what Srila Prabhupada called us: students and not professors, kindergarten level, ABC level, just learning to walk and always falling over, puppy brains, washing coals,lets send them back to Bellvue, plotting and scheming, not following, making a laughingstock, not preaching, pounds, schillings and pence, not reading, not chanting, ruining things, causing havoc, do not make it a stool society, might change the aim and object, and so on, you might, at best called them managers or ritviks. That would be the higher level you could call us, and that’s even a stretch for most of us. Neophytes are never called acharyas, in any circumstances. ys pd
SG — Congratulations! Now, you have joined the ranks of those delusional ritvik fools — Amar Puri, Mahesh Raja and some others, who are in the habit of always talking foolishly.
Srila Prabhupada discription of ritvik in Srimad — Bhagavatam:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 .
Some examples : SB –
4.6.1 — sa-rtvik sabhya -with all the priests and members of the sacrificial assembly.
4.5.7 — rtvija — the priests
4.5.18 — rtvija — the priests
4.7.16 — rtvik — the priests
4.7.27 — rtvija — the priests
4.7.45 — rtvija — the priests
Mahesh: So Srila Prabhupada ONLY appointed these senior devotees as RITVIK . BUT NEVER as DIKSA GURU. It was these RITVIK devotees that APPOINTED THEMSELVES as Diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada calls such people as SELF-MADE GURU:
From the year 1966 to 1977, Srila Prabhupada did NOT give ANY order to anyone SPECIFICALLY, “YOU become guru,” so HOW can you say that they are diksa guru?
IF Srila Prabhupada would have ordered BEFORE 1977, then there would be no point in 1977 of him stating in 1977 WHEN I order. It was SPECIFICALLY in the year 1977 that Srila Prabhupada said “WHEN I order” NOT before, so AFTER the year 1977, WHERE is the evidence of THAT order?
Prabhupada: “WHEN I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That’s it.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, May 28, 1977, Vrindavan)
“SELF-MADE GURU guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he’s guru. This is the fact…Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.”
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Nectar of Devotion, October 31. 1972)
“One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORIZED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana.”
(Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.54, purport)
Prabhupada: “Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. That’s all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
(Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 7.2, Nairobi, October 28, 1975)
Note: ONLY Maha-bhagavata is QUALIFIED to give Diksa they were CONDITIONED SOULS not Maha-Bhagavatas:
The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION. They DISOBEYED Srila Prabhupada they were NOT maha-bhagavata. HOW can one be a DIKSA guru by chanting OFFENSIVELY!!!!
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note: Diksa explained GRAPHICALLY:
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. WE SHOULD NOTE CAREFULLY THAT THE LORD WAS TRANSFERRED TO DEVAKI NOT BY THE ORDINARY WAY FOR A HUMAN BEING, BUT BY DIKSA, INITIATION. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
SB 4.12.11 P Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back to Godhead
In summary, a maha-bhagavata, a highly elevated pure devotee, sees the Lord everywhere, as well as within the heart of everyone. This is possible for devotees who have developed elevated devotional service to the Lord. As stated in the Brahma-samhita (5.38), premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena: only those who have smeared their eyes with the ointment of love of Godhead can see everywhere the Supreme Lord FACE TO FACE; it is not possible by imagination or so-called meditation.
@abhaya carana seva
Perfect knowledge is an individual state of consciousness, nothing more nothing less. To quote sastra doesn’t mean a thing when you’re not realized in Brahman.
Ritviks are expert in dry quoting, like so many others atheists.
Thank you Narasimha das prabhu, this article is so good!
pamho agtACBSP, Ritviks are not just dry philosophers. When quoting Prabhupada, Prabhupada is actually present in his teachings. Only atheists disbelieve.
As we know there are different stages of knowledge: pratyaksa, paroksa, aparoksa, adhoksaja, aprakrta. So we have to approach the aprakrta, transcendental, above material nature. Adhoksaja is almost nearer than the lower grade of knowledge, pratyaksa, paroksaparoksa. They are in the kanistha-adhikara.
Prakrta stage is pratyaksa knowledge, direct perception and knowledge received from parampara. Pratyaksa, paroksa, then aparoksa, self-realization, then adhoksaja, aprakrta. As Prabhupada explains, Krsna consciousness is aprakrta knowledge. It is the topmost platform of knowing Krsna. So, so long we are up to the adhoksaja knowledge, that is regulative principles. And aprakrta knowledge is for the paramahamsa. That is called raga-bhakta. In these stages, pratyaksa, paroksa, they are called viddhi-bhakti. But without viddhi-bhakti we cannot reach to the platform of raga-bhakti. Of course this is our aim. Raganuga, raga-bhakti is executed following the footprints of the devotees in Vrndavana. That is called raga-bhakti. Krsna’s personal associates. Not to become directly Krsna’s personal associate, but following the footprints of Krsna’s eternal associates, we can come to the stage of raga-bhakti.
As we see there are fools who still argue and fight about this and that, as we can see there are not so many bhaktivedanta around us only barking dogs who try to hide SRILA PRABHUPADA as the only diksa guru of Iskcon,
agtSP ys
haribol
Vijnana das says:
Perfect knowledge is an individual state of consciousness, nothing more nothing less. To quote sastra doesn’t mean a thing when you’re not realized in Brahman.
Mahesh: That is just nonsense. Can YOU prove it that one has to be Brahman realized in order to quote from sastra first? Srila Prabhupada’s verdict is: One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. So it is Srila Prabhupada’s words against your mental speculations.
Bg 17.15 P The Divisions of Faith
One should not speak in such a way as to agitate the minds of others. Of course, when a teacher speaks, he can speak the truth for the instruction of his students, but such a teacher should not speak to others who are not his students if he will agitate their minds. This is penance as far as talking is concerned. Besides that, one should not talk nonsense. When speaking in spiritual circles, one’s statements must be upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. At the same time, such talk should be very pleasurable to the ear. By such discussions, one may derive the highest benefit and elevate human society. There is a limitless stock of Vedic literature, and one should study this. This is called penance of speech.
Adi 7.132 Lord Caitanya in Five Features
We quote Vedic evidence to support our statements, but if we interpret it according to our own judgment, the authority of the Vedic literature is rendered imperfect or useless. In other words, by interpreting the Vedic version one minimizes the value of Vedic evidence. When one quotes from Vedic literature, it is understood that the quotations are authoritative. How can one bring the authority under his own control? That is a case of principiis obsta.
abhaya carana seva das, It is better to be fool who is able to follow sincerely and seriously Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI in His world wide Spiritual Organization ISKCON wherein HDG. Srila Prabhupada has not authorized any one of His followers as His Successor to be. Is it NOT ?
So what is your intend and purpose, abhaya carana seva das , when you say this in your comments;
” As we see there are fools who still argue and fight about this and that, as we can see there are not so many bhaktivedanta around us only barking dogs who try to hide SRILA PRABHUPADA as the only diksa guru of Iskcon,” ?
Is Srila Prabhupada not the only Diksa Guru in His Iskcon ?
IF NOT, then, name one to whom Srila Prabhupada did authorize from His disciples to be His Successor in His Iskcon ?
In this case, if you have NO answer, then, who are only barking dogs who try to hide Srila Prabhupada as the only diksa guru of Iskcon ?
@abhaya carana seva das
“As we see there are fools who still argue and fight about this and that, as we can see there are not so many bhaktivedanta around us only barking dogs who try to hide SRILA PRABHUPADA as the only diksa guru of Iskcon,”
You write exactly like a fanatical, fake Christian. Apart from that, I know these ritviks can’t even stick to the four regs. So they can’t be whatever authority whatsoever. Even the brahma bhuta platform is too difficult for them. Worldly and political nutcases, that’s their position, utmost.
Wow ………. who is this great personality Vijnana das seems advocating very strongly against Srila Prabhupada Instructions of Initiation in His Organization (anti – ritvik ) when he says this ; ” ……….. I know these ritviks can’t even stick to the four regs. So they can’t be whatever authority whatsoever……..”
FYI …. the followers of Srila Prabhupada’s VANI are not the authority BUT the VANI of Srila Prabhupada is the authority, indeed. Isn’t It ?
Therefore, it is a free will of the Jivas either to follow as much as or as little as possible as per individual person. Is that not a FACT, Vijnana das ?
This Vijnana das looks like from his writing as if he is the same person as of Guru Parampara dasa, Raja Gopala dasa and the Gypsy boy. Is my inference, correct ?
“Mahesh: That is just nonsense. Can YOU prove it that one has to be Brahman realized in order to quote from sastra first? Srila Prabhupada’s verdict is: One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. So it is Srila Prabhupada’s words against your mental speculations.”
This guy Mahesh indeed doesn’t understand anything but formal madhyama info. Just read the above childish nonsense. Some madhyama preaching from HDG which only a fool wants to take to the Absolute Platform, regardless time, place and circumstance. How incredible foolish can one be?
OMG, they indeed lack “a few” braincells, these ritvik people.
Vijnana das(Raja Gopala dasa, the Original Gypsy, Guru Parampara das) : Apart from that, I know these ritviks can’t even stick to the four regs. So they can’t be whatever authority whatsoever. Even the brahma bhuta platform is too difficult for them. Worldly and political nutcases, that’s their position, utmost.
Mahesh: This guy is thinking he is fooling us by adopting different names. Same writing style. Baboon worshiper does not give up his old tricks.
pamho agtACBSP, come on Amara Puri Prabhu where do you live? Don’t tell me that you don’t know that robbers stole SRILA PRABHUPADA’s position as diksa guru by taking over Iskcon and SRILA PRABHUPADA’s disciples?
Sometimes it is better to be a fake Christian than a fake Prabhupadanuga, i grew up with Christian church service but one night LORD JESUS appeared to me in a dream and told me to chant Hare Krsna.
Few days later the priest of our local church gave me the first three volumes of SRILA PRABHUPADA’s books when I was 16 years old.
I’m still chanting early in the morning and reading SRILA PRABHUPADA’s books at 52 years old age. By the mercy of SRI SRI GURU GAURANGA i got some sukrti from previous live what gives me strength to keep going with my daily sadhana bhakti by forgetting this troublesome and bad dream of being what i’m not through the external temporary dress of maha maya,
agtSP ys
haribol
pamho agtACBSP, I got no time anymore to waste with people who give more importance to insignificant things and are still sleeping regarding the truth.
We are all insignificant, destined to disappear again including all those fake gurus named gkg, lkg, etc… Better study the sublime lives of the acharyas and all of you can understand that we are insignificant, it doesn’t matter what you say or what i’m saying because at the end is SRI KRSNA the supreme controller and enjoyer of everything to decide who is fit to get HIS mercy and who needs to stay longer in this insignificant state of consciousness.
Don’t waste time with kama krodha lobha mohan matsarya and mada, use the factor time to get free not further trapped as we are at the moment, anyway good luck to all the sleeping souls jiv jago,
agtSP ys
haribol
Jaya-gopala: What is meant by madness?
Prabhupada: Just as don’t you see all these people of the world, they are mad? What they are doing? They whole day the cars going on this side, that side. What is the aim of life? They’re mad. Simply wasting petroleum, that’s all. What they’re doing? Huh? Suppose a cat and dog goes this side and that side, yow, yow, yow, and he goes some motorcars. What is the difference? There is no difference because the aim of the life is the same. Therefore they are mad. That is explained. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti [Bhag. 5.5.4]. Nunam pramattah, pramattah means mad. Prakrsta rupena mata, sufficiently mad. And why? Kurute vikarma. They’re acting which they should not act. They’re acting in a way in which they should not have done. So what is the aim of their acting? Indriya-pritaya, simply for sense gratification. That’s all.
Bhagavad-gita 2.27-38
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Los Angeles, December 11, 1968
“FYI …. the followers of Srila Prabhupada’s VANI are not the authority BUT the VANI of Srila Prabhupada is the authority, indeed. Isn’t It ?”
I prefer not to follow blindly but realised. My guru maharaja, a faithful disciple of SP, inspired me to reach the brahma bhuta platform. SP explains in the BG that actual hearing begins form the brahma bhuta platform. From that platform actual bhakti begins. (BG 18.54/55)
Ritviks can’t spread SP mercy since they prefer to remain impure and envious. Just proper hearing already is too difficult for them.
Yes indeed, my inference is confirmed about the Identity of this wow person Vijnana das aka Guru Parampara dasa, Raja Gopala dasa and the Gypsy boy etc. when he writes: “I prefer not to follow blindly but realised. My guru maharaja, a faithful disciple of SP, inspired me to reach the brahma bhuta platform. SP explains in the BG that actual hearing begins form the brahma bhuta platform. From that platform actual bhakti begins. (BG 18.54/55)”
It is very obviously seen from changing his ID in different names indicate that how much this Murkha jiva is realised by the help of his guru who is a faithful disciple of SP. as he believes.
I wonder why this wow person keep coming back with his nonsense writing on this forum?
In his defensive mood, abhaya carana seva das replies totally out of context: “Come on Amara Puri Prabhu where do you live? Don’t tell me that you don’t know that robbers stole SRILA PRABHUPADA’s position as diksa guru by taking over Iskcon and SRILA PRABHUPADA’s disciples? when he was asked and challenged by these following questions in my post:
Then he writes separately in his further defence as if the readers here on this forum do not know who robbed Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon ‘ “I got no time anymore to waste with people who give more importance to insignificant things and are still sleeping regarding the truth.”
FYI…. All of US here on this forum know the Truth who did what in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon. That is why this forum is called Prabhupadanuga because all of US accept Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions and defend His Instructions against all sorts of nonsense going around in the name of ISKCON.
So my questions were in response to your comments in the post which were not cleared to me and thus, I put forth to you for further clarification which you took it as an insult as it seems and gave a out of context reply in your defensive mood.
There is no need for any one to defend and offend any body but to discuss the Truth of Srila Prabhupada Instructions – VANI in order to spread the Holy Name through the Samkirtana movement of Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu via His Bona fide representative HDG. Srila Prabhupada so desires.
Hope it meets you well.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Speaking on the guru issue and what was to be done after Srila Prabhupada’s departure the late Suhotra prabhu, (then Swami) comments, “In these specific matters Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction.”
He goes on to say that being ‘inexperienced’ the Gbc approached one of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers and he instructed them in this Zonal Acarya idea. “But this system it became very obvious that it was contrary to Srila Prabhupada’s idea how Iskcon should be managed. So this created big difficulties which are all a matter of history now, and so then that Zonal Acarya system had to be rejected”.
What’s interesting to note is how Iskcon members have been lead to believe that after making such a colossal blunder, (being totally covered by illusion) these same inexperienced Gbc turned around and miraculously GOT IT RIGHT simply by creating a slightly different system? Now keep in mind, as Suhotra prabhu correctly says, “In these specific matters Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction” and so in the absence of ‘much instruction’ it’s logical to conclude that the current Iskcon system was never authorized nor instituted under instruction of the Founder Acarya. Iskcon members are not following a ‘Prabhupada system’ they are following the same people who gave us the defective Zonal Acaya system.
Really what we see today is just another version of a Gbc created system rank and file are ‘told’ to believe and accept exactly as they were with regards to the Zonal Acarya system. And so is it just a matter of time before this current system will also be ‘rejected’ and rank and file told to believe and accept something new, (hey they keep changing the books and the Founder Acaryas status within his own Movement, etc., so another guru system change is not an irrational argument from reason.)
# It may be noted also that the current guru system which Suhotra Swami goes on to try and defend in his talk, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAkyiORdnFE) proved to be his very downfall and just like the Zonal Acaya system it ‘created big difficulties which are all a matter of history now’.
JFS
abhaya carana seva das writes in his comments: ” Sometimes it is better to be a fake Christian than a fake Prabhupadanuga, i grew up with Christian church service but one night LORD JESUS appeared to me in a dream and told me to chant Hare Krsna.
Few days later the priest of our local church gave me the first three volumes of SRILA PRABHUPADA’s books when I was 16 years old.”
That is so nice to notice abhaya carana seva das that in your dream Lord Jesus appeared and told you to chant Hare Krsna. So it indicates that you were not amongst the fake Christian at all because you were very serious and sincere Christian follower. That is why Lord Jesus told you so to chant Hare Krsna.
So that same way, we the followers of Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI are not fake Prabhupadanuga. That is why we protect and promote Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI as He expects all of US – the followers must do.
That is why I asked you in my comments to clarify by putting forth my questions to you which you took them as an OFFENSIVE and replied in a defensive mood out of context.
I must say that how fortunate you are to receive the first three volumes of SRILA PRABHUPADA’s books when you were 16 years old from the priest of your local church. That is quite significant.
By the way, can you describe please whether Lord Jesus you saw in your dream was with BLUE eyes, Blond hairs as is seen in the Church or was Lord Jesus appeared in a Burn Brass color as some group of people believe so ?
pamho prabhus agtACBSP, SRILA MADHVACARYA,SRI RAMACANDRA VIJAYOTSAVA KI JAI
HG amari puri prabhu I must apologise if I did any offence. LORD JESUS appeared to me with a white long dress and blond hair when HE told me to chant Hare Krsna and the day after when I started to chant the maha mantra I felt the hand of LORD JESUS on my head leading me by giving me the convermation that I was on the right track by chanting Hare Krsna.
Therefore I accepted LORD JESUS CHRIST as my diksa guru not only as a bona fide saktya avesha avatara, later I got the proper diksa by another saktya avesha avatara named HDG ACBSP.
I considered myself lucky as you say because i’m connected with Lord Caitanya’s Sankirtan movement and not with low class people who are misleading the innocent.
In this case knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance says SRI UPANISAD and this is what is still going on in fiskcon by forgetting the real great personalities who got the power to rescue us at the time to leave this dukhalayam asasvatam body,
agtSP ys
haribol
JFS writes: “What’s interesting to note is how Iskcon members have been lead to believe that after making such a colossal blunder, (being totally covered by illusion) these same inexperienced Gbc turned around and miraculously GOT IT RIGHT simply by creating a slightly different system? Now keep in mind, as Suhotra prabhu correctly says, ‘In these specific matters Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction’ and so in the absence of ‘much instruction’ it’s logical to conclude that the current Iskcon system was never authorized nor instituted under instruction of the Founder Acarya. Iskcon members are not following a ‘Prabhupada system’ they are following the same people who gave us the defective Zonal Acaya system.”
Excellent analysis, JFS. Furthermore, we learn from Gauridas Pandit das that Srila Prabhupada, in fact, gave “much instruction” on his system of initiation. However, many tapes from that period are missing. Tamal Krishna admitted that they had done a great disservice to ISKCON by appointing gurus, when Srila Prabhupada had only appointed ritviks. If and when they finally decide to follow the “Prabhupada system,” everything will fall into place perfectly.
@JFS: “…proved to be his very downfall and just like the Zonal Acaya system it ‘created big difficulties which are all a matter of history now’.”
One problem with people stating things like ‘In these specific matters Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction’ is that in Sanskrit very short terms contain books of meaning. E.g. nistha means firmly fixed up. This nistha stage comes when one is freed from anartha! Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango ’tha bhajana-kriya tato ’nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha. (Madhya-lila 23.14-15)
Westerners are accustomed to consider something as important when there is long explanation. When having just one word like nistha we tend to consider this as insignificant. Same with brahma-bhuta – one has to come to the brahma-bhuta stage [SB 4.30.20] for going back to Godhead, “for without being on the brahma-bhuta stage, one cannot be promoted to the spiritual sky”.
Basically this is what Prabhupada teaches throughout his books that being truly situated on the liberated platform, nistha, brahma-bhuta, one doesn’t fall down any more. And this platform of not falling down anymore is minimum requirement/qualification for becoming a guru. After all the meaning of guru is – spiritual master, in any material profession to become a master requires examination for the master, craftsman’s diploma.
And in spiritual life these ISKCON spiritual masters are granted to chuck their position up like any daytaler? Question any sane person will ask, why these neophyte ISKCON gurus want to be called spiritual master? There is the option to call oneself priest, instructing guru, brahmana, siksha-guru, vartma-pradarsaka guru. But no, they insist to be called spiritual master, diksha-guru, highest platform.
So this is all humbug delusions of grandeur and no intelligent Westerners take present ISKCON seriously.
Additionally, why Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction on his disciples sitting on the vyasasana is of course, he never authorized them to be next acarya.
abhaya carana seva das says: ” Therefore I accepted LORD JESUS CHRIST as my diksa guru not only as a bona fide saktya avesha avatara, later I got the proper diksa by another saktya avesha avatara named HDG ACBSP.”
Lord Jesus and our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada are both Saktyaavesha avatara, no doubt.
So you got the proper understanding in accepting the Holy Name as a deliverance from the clutches of the Maya, material energy and utilizing the same in the service of the mission of HDG. Srila Prabhupada to make not only your life sublime in KC. but also many others fallen Jivas’ life giving the same opportunity of hearing the Holy Name of the Hare Krishna Maha mantra to every one on this planet earth which you got it through the mercy of the Lord Jesus and Srila Prabhupada on account of your Sukiriti (accumulation of the pious deeds).
That is the best service any one can do to propagate the Samkirtan movement of Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
Therefore accepting ones’ own disciples as a Diksha guru in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon is not authorized which is causing an unnecessarily havoc in the world wide Spiritual Organization of Iskcon.
Unfortunately, so many people are misleadingly promoting and following these bogus unauthorized Diksha guru in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon.
Thanks to all the dedicated followers of the Instructions of Srila Prabhupada who are doing their best to protect and promote only Srila Prabhupada’s VANI including the Editor/s of this site giving everyone an opportunity to discuss openly in this forum.
OM TAT SAT.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Vijnana das says : “And in spiritual life these ISKCON spiritual masters are granted to chuck their position up like any daytaler? Question any sane person will ask, why these neophyte ISKCON gurus want to be called spiritual master? There is the option to call oneself priest, instructing guru, brahmana, siksha-guru, vartma-pradarsaka guru. But no, they insist to be called spiritual master, diksha-guru, highest platform.
So this is all humbug delusions of grandeur and no intelligent Westerners take present ISKCON seriously.
Additionally, why Srila Prabhupada did not give much instruction on his disciples sitting on the vyasasana is of course, he never authorized them to be next acarya.”
Elsewhere in his comments, Vijnana das says very differently in reply to my comments which reads : ” Vijnana das says:
13. October 2013 at 9:58 am
Amar Puri’s comments : “FYI …. the followers of Srila Prabhupada’s VANI are not the authority BUT the VANI of Srila Prabhupada is the authority, indeed. Isn’t It ?”
Vijnana das’s contradictory replies in his comments :
” I prefer not to follow blindly but realised. My guru maharaja, a faithful disciple of SP, inspired me to reach the brahma bhuta platform. SP explains in the BG that actual hearing begins form the brahma bhuta platform. From that platform actual bhakti begins. (BG 18.54/55)
Ritviks can’t spread SP mercy since they prefer to remain impure and envious. Just proper hearing already is too difficult for them. ”
Did Srila Prabhupada authorize your guru maharaja a faithful disciple of SP to accept you as his disciple in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon who inspired you to reach the brahma bhuta platform ?
Giving you the benefit of doubt that IF you have reached the brahma bhuta platform as you admitted, THEN, are you NOT contradicting your own guru of Iskcon ?
Does it not prove that you are saying exactly that your own guru in Iskcon is BOGUS as Srila Prabhupada did not authorize any of His disciples to accept own disciple and become diksha guru in Iskcon ?
LW says:
14. October 2013 at 8:36 am
“Furthermore, we learn from Gauridas Pandit das that Srila Prabhupada,
in fact, gave “much instruction” on his system of initiation. However,
many tapes from that period are missing.
Tamal Krishna admitted that they had done a great disservice to ISKCON
by appointing gurus, when Srila Prabhupada had only appointed ritviks.
If and when they finally decide to follow the “Prabhupada system,”
everything will fall into place perfectly.
===========================================
SG – Mmmm. More humbug from the ritviks.
From Gauridas Pandit das to Tamal Krishna all seems to be saying
that Srila Prabhupada wanted post samadhi ritvik initiation. It seems
much instruction was given on his “Prabhupada system” (ritvik’s concoction)
during conversations and tapes but the spiritual master in all his
infinite wisdom decided to miss mentioning it on paper, in his official
July 9th 1977 letter that he wanted such a system to continue after
his departure.
From managing a worldwide society to translating volumes of books,
from giving classes, lectures to corresponding through hundreds if not
thousands of letters to his hundreds of disciples, all this and Srila Prabhupada
missed mentioning in his books, lectures, letters and most importantly
in his July 9th 1977 letter that he wanted to continue to be the initiating
spiritual master and he wanted a post samadhi ritvik initiation system in
place after his departure from this planet nor did he thought it was important
enough to mention it in his direction of management document to ensure
quote ” “Prabhupada system,” everything will fall into place perfectly.”
Below quote from the July 9th 1977 letter
———————————————————
” In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending
a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these
representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for
first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest
their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may
accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual
name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as
Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine
Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees
acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these
representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna
in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should
be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be
included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”
SG – The instruction is straight forward. The name of a newly initiated disciple should
be sent to Srila Prabhupada. This instruction was given when he was present
and it ends there. There is no further instruction given for after his departure
from this planet.
So, what, quote ” “Prabhupada system,” everything will fall into place perfectly.”
are these foolish ritviks keep talking about? Only speculations and interpretations.
Further quotes:
“Letter to Hamsaduta — Mayapur 1 October, 1974
——————————————————————–
From Madhavananda I have heard that there is some worship of yourself
by the other devotees. Of course it is proper to offer obeisances to a Vaisnava,
but not in the presence of the spiritual master. After the departure of the
spiritual master, it will come to that stage, but now wait. Otherwise it will
create factions.”
SB 8.16.24
————–
” He guru does not manufacture a new process to instruct the disciple.
the disciple receives from the guru and authorised process received
by the guru from his guru. This is called the system of disciplic succession.
( Evam parampara – praptam imam rajasayo viduh).”
Lecture on SB 6.1.1 — Melbourne, May 21, 1975:
—————————————————————-
Devotee (8): Srila Prabhupada, does a disciple first accept his spiritual master
within the heart when he takes initiation?
Madhudvisa: What is the question again?
Devotee (8): When a disciple takes initiation, does he first take initiation
within the heart?
Prabhupada: Initiation is the third stage. First stage is that… Just like you have
come. This is called sraddha, faith, little faith, not full faith. Then you have to
increase this faith by association of devotee. That is required. And when the
faith is increased, then the question of initiation. Initiation should not be immediately
offered. That will be misused. Therefore when we initiate, we inquire from the head
of the temple, “How long he is coming? What is his behavior?” If he certifies that
“Yes, he is doing nice,” then we initiate. Our initiation is not so cheap, “You come
and be initiated.” No, we do not do that. We must test you first of all. Then we initiate.
Madhudvisa: His question was that can you take initiation by accepting
the spiritual master in your heart without actually taking…
Prabhupada: These are bogus proposition. It has no meaning. (laughter) It has no
meaning. If you think within yourself, “I am eating,” will you be satisfied? You starve
and simply think, “I have eaten everything.” (laughter) Is that very practical proposal?
You must eat. We don’t say all these bogus proposition.
HARE KRSNA
“SG — The instruction is straight forward. The name of a newly initiated disciple should
be sent to Srila Prabhupada. This instruction was given when he was present
and it ends there. There is no further instruction given for after his departure
from this planet.”
“and it ends there”, this is your interpolation.
Where does the signed document say this?
Or have you any other proof to back your statement other than your say so?
You must learn to read someday.
First of all, Srila Prabhupada suspended making more sannyasas in January of 1977, complaining that his followers are not fit for sannyasa, and they need to get married. The GBC then claimed that four months later, May 28th, he “appointed” the same exact people he had just announced are not fit for sannyasa — as acharyas.
You mean to say they went from unfit for sannyasa to fit to be acharyas, in four months?
This makes no sense at all. Then again they refused to give me a copy of the alleged appointment tape, and the eventual tape that emerged (Sulochana was murdered for bribing an archives member and bringing the tape out in the public) was found by an audio expert (Norman Perle A.C.E.) to be “consistent with tampering” (tape splicing). Where is the actual evidence the 11 were ever appointed as gurus? And why was the person who did bring the tape out, end up dead in less than two years? Why was the tape found to be spliced? And when are we going to get this answered? ys pd
@Amar Puri Dasa: “Does it not prove that you are saying exactly that your own guru in Iskcon is BOGUS as Srila Prabhupada did not authorize any of His disciples to accept own disciple and become diksha guru in Iskcon ?”
We ISKCON devotees can only do one thing to obey what GBC is telling us. If we don’t follow the authority of GBC there is no chance to be part of Prabhupada’s global ISKCON movement.
So far we simply do what is instructed by our GBC. As you might have leaned, ISKCON’s GBC is ultimate managerial authority. Your inquiry should therefore be fowarded to GBC office and answered there. We rank&file devotees are supposed to do our service and this was also the case when Prabhupada was physically present. Washing pots, distributing Prabhupada’s books, cleansing the temple floor keeps as busy 24/7 and hopefully Krishna will bestow His mercy so that finally we can enter Lord Krishna’s spiritual kingdom what is the final goal of life.
Vijnana das, Guru parampara dasa, Raja Gopala dasa, the Gypsy boy, whatever your name is, you are indeed DEVIANT as it has been shown and proven by your own contradictory comments many times.
Therefore, your comments are worthless and useless that makes you having no ability to communicate and no capability to comments.
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Haribol SG. Thank you for your comments.
Everyone is free to follow their own understanding. I’m not here to browbeat anyone with quotes because everyone here has basically read all the quotes and has already made up their own minds. I’ll just cite two quotes and then finish up below.
To Mukunda he wrote:
“Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master. That is the first proposition. A layman cannot be a Spiritual Master, and if he becomes so then he will simply create disturbance […] So to summarize the whole thing, it is to be understood that a bona fide Spiritual Master is a resident of Krishna Loka.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, June 10, 1969)
When Srila Prabhupada was asked how initiations would continue after his departure he replied and summarized:
“Ritvik, yes.”
When Prabhupada was physically manifest and performing his ISKCON pastimes, there was no doubt or controversy about the position of guru. He was — and is — perfect, bas. Everything he said or did was 100% perfect in all respects. No doubt about it. So common sense dictates that Srila Prabhupada would never establish an initiation system that was imperfect. If one “guru” falls down, then that system is necessarily at odds with Prabhupada’s system because he would not cheat anyone or allow anyone to be cheated in his name.
Yes, Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote of gurus in disciplic succession, but he warned his disciples not to jump and that first the training must be complete. He said that he didn’t want unqualified gurus or acaryas like the Gaudiya Math had established after Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s disappearance. He wanted us to be qualified, but he found no one ready or capable of taking that position. History shows this to be true.
Prabhupada has stated that one must follow the last or most recent of his instructions or orders. At the end of his pastimes on earth in 1977, he spoke of ritvik initiations to his leading disciples. He signed the July 9th letter.
Aside from quotes and arguments, one must have vijnana or realization about this matter. Srila Prabhupada had successfully implemented the ritvik system (long before the word ritvik emerged) in his movement. As the founder-acarya, he has the absolute right to prescribe whatever system he deems appropriate for time, place and circumstance. Just like he sailed across the ocean to preach in mleccaloka, establish brahmacarini asramas, etc. That’s why I refer to it as Prabhupada’s system of initiation. It’s what he himself established, and according to even Tamal himself (one of the main architects of the guru system), it’s what he wanted practiced after his departure at least until the next self-effulgent acarya manifested (not appointed or voted in, which Srila Prabhupada condemned).
In conclusion, thousands of new “disciples” have been hurt and damaged because of fallen “gurus” in our movement. And it still goes on today after more than 35 years. Do you really think that Srila Prabhupada would authorize this continuous fiasco? Sorry, but I don’t. It’s just not working. Even one guru falling down renders the whole system imperfect. Why not be compassionate to the new devotees and give them Srila Prabhupada directly? Prabhupada doesn’t need us to interfere with their relationship with the pure devotee resident of Krishnaloka — neither do the new people need an imperfect intermediary. Prabhupada often commented, “another impractical proposal” when referring to ideas which lacked common sense.
My humble request is that you consider these points with an open mind. Thank you once again.
Vijnana das: We ISKCON devotees can only do one thing to obey what GBC is telling us. If we don’t follow the authority of GBC there is no chance to be part of Prabhupada’s global ISKCON movement.
So far we simply do what is instructed by our GBC. As you might have leaned, ISKCON’s GBC is ultimate managerial authority.
Mahesh: GBC is ultimate MANAGERIAL Authority. They have to MANAGE as per DICTATES of Srila Prabhupada the FOUNDER AND ACARYA(THE DIKSA GURU OF ISKCON) the WIll, the July 9th 1977 Order, DOM 1970.
They have no jurisdiction to authorize bogus CONDITIONED SOUL guru FACTORY. Grow-up!
Vijnana das says: We ISKCON devotees can only do one thing: to obey what GBC is telling us. If we don’t follow the authority of GBC there is no chance to be part of Prabhupada’s global ISKCON movement.
Except for not acknowledging the fact that Srila Prabhupada’s beloved Hare Krishna movement is also going on outside of ISKCON, Vijnana Prabhu is correct. To stay in ISKCON and not follow the GBC would be hypocrisy.
One time, when I was alone with Prabhupada, I asked him a question. I no longer remember what my question was, or what his answer was, but I do remember his final word on the subject very clearly: “Just follow the GBC.”
The GBC ignored the voting provision of Prabhupada’s 1970 Direction of Management, so why can’t they also ignore his July 9th, 1977 “ritvik henceforward” order? Obviously, it was a very big mistake, and they are now suffering the consequences, but Srila Prabhupada did give them that power! The fact that they still, after 35 years, have not rectified this mistake simply means that they are extremely bad managers!
Let’s all pray that they finally get it right, sooner rather than later!
McHarry says:
15. October 2013 at 12:37 pm
““and it ends there”, this is your interpolation. ”
SG – Mr. McHarry, if you have any written documents or letters
where Srila Prabhupada has made direct references that he wanted
post samadhi ritvik initiation to be conducted and that he will remain
as the initiating spiritual master after his departure from this planet,
please post it for us all to read.
Otherwise, sorry, but just not interested in your petty interpolation
argument. I know you have understood what I meant when I said
“and it ends there”.
And if you are really interested in petty arguments, Amar Puri is the
person you should seek.
HARE KRSNA
@SG
Hare Rama,
pamho AGTSP
Are you kidding?
Or do you simple want to be cheated?
We have all the written proof online where Srila Prabhupada says Gurus do not fall down:
http://prabhupadanugas.blogspot.de/2013/05/cheaters-and-cheated.html
So the public falldown of over 40 Gurus is proof enough these people are not realized or authorized to act a Diksha Gurus.
And yes we have written proof, Srila Prabhupada wanted Ritviks – The July 9th 1977 letter:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVqwcCkY3Qc
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyiMF8Hr_w8
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlRljK6IZhY
Plus testimony of Srila Prabhupada’s personal servant that he talked about Ritvik in 1977 and these tapes are all missing:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49QxjiIMqU
And how Statistical analysis supports concerns about lack of Srila Prabhupada’s 1977 audio recordings:
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltXPafA1RfI
So all the proof is there.
Only someone who wants to be cheated will not accept the July 9th 1977 letter.
Bhakta Robin
SG writes ignorantly as usual ; ” And if you are really interested in petty arguments, Amar Puri is the
person you should seek.”
Amar Puri’s straight forward common sense argument against SG’s concoction of the terminology PRE/POST Samadhi of Srila Prabhupada’s Initiation Instructions while Srila Prabhupada was or is present or absence remains that Srila Prabhupada is always in Samadhi to which SG. refuses and rejects it. The reason SG has never explained it and answered to the question, thus far.
Is that not a FACT , SG ?
If this is a petty arguments, then, why not SG answer to the question and the same time explain his position under which of his concocted believe system SG refuses and rejects Srila Prabhupada’s presence through His VANI ?
What and where is SG’s problem ?
WHY SG is kept on repeating the same objection of his nonsense concocted ideas of pre/post Samadhi every time in his post and accusing all of US the followers who are accepting Srila Prabhupada’s Initiating Instructions as He Orders and thus, He desires that everyone of US must follow and hear from Him with rapt attention what He intends to instruct to His followers in His world wide Spiritual Organization of ISKCON.
Why SG and his associates bring this type of petty nonsense concocted ideas of PRE/POST Samadhi of Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions ?
What is SG’s intend and purpose of all this petty argument ?
It is only SG can reply. Will he reply to all these questions ?
I guess NOT. Why, as usual SG continue to ignore this petty issue concocted by him. That is why SG remains IGNORANT because he keeps on ignoring this type of nonsense petty arguments which create so much confusion not only to himself but also for so many others who are serious and sincere in following Srila Prabhupada’s Instructions – VANI.
Hope the readers find this satisfactory.
Hari BOL.
OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Here is what Srila Prabhupada explains: “Just like I am speaking in the dictaphone, but after some time, without me, it will speak exactly like this. So, I am speaking, but I’m not present there. Similarly, material world means it is being conducted by Krsna, but still, Krsna, personally, He’s not present there.”
4/8/76 bg 4.24 New Mayapur
So similarly, Srila Prabhupada is always Present through His VANI.
If Srila Prabhupada says that He is present in His VANI – Instructions, then, where is the question of concocting ideas of ones’ own about PRE/POST Samadhi instructions when an intelligent person come to think about it ???
One has to be an IGNORANTLY INSANE (Mudha matie – Murkha) even to think about it let alone advocating of this nonsense idea of Pre/Post samadhi as our friend SG and associates are committed to mislead the massive innocent people creating such unnecessarily CONFUSION.
I sincerely hope that all these people, SG and co., get the essence and help preaching and promoting the mission of Srila Prabhupada as He desires.
That is the best service any one can do at least.
Hari BOL.
OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Devotees will be interested in knowing HOW and WHY these guys oppose Srila Prabhupada as Current DIksa GURU and the BONAFIDE Ritvik System as ordered by Srila Prabhupada July 9th 1977:
Bhaktivedanta Manor:
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
OVER MILLION POUNDS IN SALARY:
Employees 139
Wages and salaries / Year :2011 / £ 1,386,332
Trustees:
Anthony William Howchin (aka Titiksu das)
Arun Kumar Bhandari (aka Haridas das)
Astley Valentine Sinclair (aka Anantavijay das)
James Edwards (aka Jai Nitai das)
Pradip Gajjar (Pradyumna das)
Raffhel Grappa (Vishvambhara das)
Terry Michael Anderson (Tarakanatha das)
Paul Murphy (Praghosa das)*****
Niresh Ranj an Dey (Nitaicharan das)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Paul Murphy same***** Director of Bhaktivedanta Manor for Belfast:
Director:
Paul Murphy (Praghosa das)
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/iskcon-(belfast)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Any charity name you want to find in UK :
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/find-charities/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/search-for-a-charity/?txt=bhaktivedanta
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Any company Director in UK:
http://www.directorsintheuk.co.uk/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Company Information in UK:
http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Conversation: Vairagya, Salaries, and Political Etiquette — April 28, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupada: Niskincanasya. One who has decided that “This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer.” Body means… Those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them. One who has the tendency to enjoy this material world, and they are taking advantage of God, “Give me good wife, give me good work, good meal, good enjoyment,” they are not in the bhakti line. They are in the very nascent stage.
Tamala Krsna: Nescient stage?
Prabhupada: Lower stage. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam. That… There is one verse written by Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. What page I don’t… Siksartham. The bhakti-yoga, nija-bhakti-yoga… Bhakti-yoga means devotion to Krsna. And that is vairagya-vidya, how to learn, renounce this world. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave up His grhastha life? He’s the same person. Why Rupa Gosvami gave up their ministership? By their personal behavior they are showing this is not required. This is vairagya-vidya. So under the circumstances, those who have no vairagya, they cannot live in the temple. They are taking advantage of the temple facilities for their sense enjoyment. Do you understand?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, I do.
Prabhupada: So that should be stopped. So to live with wife, together as a grhastha, and enjoy grhastha life, at the same time to live in temple, this should be discouraged. Temple is meant for brahmacari and sannyasi, our, mainly, not for grhastha, because they have got inclination to enjoy. To live with wife means enjoyment. They’ll have sex. This should be discouraged. But one who is absolutely required, they also cannot be allowed to live together. It is badly done(?). Suppose if one is grhastha, he is in devotional service, but he has no money to look after his wife. In that case the wife can live in the temple but separately with women, not together. Together living is very disturbing. It is not at all recommended. Give this point. At least, this should not be encouraged.
Tamala Krsna: Generally in our temples, within the temple building no grhasthas live together, but in the temple compound, that is to say, around the temple, there may be other buildings. There they live together. But it’s…
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking, within the temple.
Tamala Krsna: I think practically all over the society that has been stopped, the grhastha living together with wife. I don’t think there’s any case like that. But in the adjoining buildings they might be…
Prabhupada: Adjoining buildings… BUT THE TEMPLE SHOULD NOT PROVIDE THEM WITH SALARY TO ENJOY THEIR LIFE. That is same thing.
Tamala Krsna: Generally the temples are providing them with apartments, like that.
Prabhupada: But that is temple.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Prabhupada: Just like we have got so many tenants. They are living in their own. But they have no connection with the temple, neither the temple is paying them or… No, they are earning their own way.
Tamala Krsna: In other words, if the temple provides an apartment, it’s the same as paying a salary.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: In other words, giving an apartment is the same thing as providing a salary.
Prabhupada: All right, apartment can be… BUT WHAT IS THIS? THEY ARE GIVEN HIGH SALARY.Because his service is essential–“All right, you take apartment.”
Tamala Krsna: But not…
Prabhupada: You take prasadam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairagya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside.
Tamala Krsna: Actually, even if you don’t give a salary, if you give an apartment and you give food and you give all these other things for someone to maintain his household life…
Prabhupada: Because his service is essential.
Tamala Krsna: But that has to be determined very strictly.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Whether his service is absolutely required? So you give him.
Tamala Krsna: That is the factor. That point must be clearly acknowledged.
Prabhupada: Hm hm. So he’s trying to practice… Because sevonmukhe, if he gives service, then gradually he’ll renounce. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. God realization means service. The more you give service to the Lord, the more you become advanced in devotional… So one who is giving service, dedicated life, so maybe… BUT NO SALARY. They may live in the temple, woman separate, man separate.
Tamala Krsna: They’re… But the actual thing is that they’re being, living together in an apartment, and the temple is paying for that apartment. They’re not living separately in the temple.
They’re being…
Prabhupada: That is to be discouraged. What do you think?
Giriraja: I agree.
Prabhupada: In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. IN THE NAME OF VAISNAVISM THEY ARE DRAWING SALARY, LIVING COMFORTABLY, HAVING SENSE ENJOYMENT. THIS IS NOT GOOD, NOT AT ALL. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful.
Tamala Krsna: Vairagya should be cultivated.
Prabhupada: Vairagya… Caitanya Mahaprabhu says clearly that niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanon mukhasya. The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he’s disgusted with this material world. For him, bhagavad-bhajana. Just like if I become disgusted with something, I require some change, similarly, bhagavad-bhajana is for him who is absolutely disgusted with this material world.
And anyone who has got little interest in material enjoyment, he’s not fit for bhagavad-bhajana. He’ll have to accept again this material body, either he becomes Brahma or becomes an ant in the stool, according to his karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha-upapattaye. He’ll have to develop certain type of body according to his desire of enjoyment. This is nature’s law. Then where is the question of going back to home, back to Godhead? Why so many varieties of life? There is Brahma, and there is ant in the stool.
So vairagya-vidya-nija… Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam. And vairagyam means jnanam ca. When one is in full knowledge that “To remain in this material world is useless for me”–jnanam–“I am simply wasting my time by repetition of birth and death,” then he can have vairagya. “Stop this!” If this sense is not awakened, there is no bhakti. It is not so easy.
Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. That is vairagya. So vairagya-vidya… Otherwise why big, big persons, they renounced everything? Bharata Maharaja, young man, the emperor of the whole world, gave up everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally teaches, young man, good, beautiful wife, young wife, so affectionate mother, so much honor in the society, Nimai Pandita, so beautiful body… Tyaktva sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim. Surepsita. Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s position was, even the demigods, they desired such family life. But He still gave up.
That is teaching. Therefore Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya says, vairagya-vidya-nija-bhak…, siksartham: “to teach others.” He understood that in order to teach others vairagya-vidya… He is the Supreme Person. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yoga-siksartham ekah purana-purusah: “That He was, Supreme Lord. Now He has appeared as Sri Krsna Caitanya.”Sarira-dhari: “He has accepted one body as Sri Krsna Caitanya.” So these things should be stopped, that they should live comfortably with husband and wife, children, and take salary from the… You decide. This is not to our… Besides that, in our BBT it is clearly written that “Fifty percent for printing book, and fifty percent for…” So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, “Welcome.” Otherwise we don’t require. AT LEAST THEY SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN ANY SALARY. THAT IS VERY BAD. THIS IS AGAINST PRINCIPLE.
Tamala Krsna: I was reading the life sketch of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He always maintained a government service job, and still…
Prabhupada: He gave so much service to Krsna. From his family maintenance… He could have renounced, but he said that the family has to be maintained. So he… Markata-vairagya. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was against giving sannyasa. He didn’t like these babajis. They were markata-vairagya, superficially… Markata-vairagya means monkey. They live naked, eat fruits, live in the jungle. That is vairagya. But three dozen wives. Markata-vairagya. Markata means monkey. Superficially vairagya, naga-baba. They eat vegetables, fruits, live in the jungle, no house, or, all, everything like vairagya. But sex. We have… I have seen in Vrndavana. They have got a party, each monkey, women’s party, and the male will come to any female, “Now ready,” “Enter.” You can see it. Markata-vairagya nahi paraloka dasaya(?).So this should not be encouraged. Then gradually it will deteriorate into…
Tamala Krsna: The Christians had that happen to them.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: The Christian religion had that deterioration. Everything deteriorated more and more into sense gratification.
Prabhupada: Because they have no valid philosophy. It is simply official. They have nothing, no knowledge, no nothing, simply that dress and cloth. That’s all.
Tamala Krsna: Just like the original… When Jesus was there and he had twelve disciples, they simply gave up everything and traveled with him and tried to preach. So they were renunciates, living simply whatever they could take, nothing more, and devoting their lives to God. But the followers later on, more and more they added the degree of sense gratification, till now you can’t see any renunciation at all within their order.
Prabhupada: No, they are drinking. THEY ARE HAVING HOMOSEX. THEY ARE ENCOURAGING HOMOSEX, GIVING MAN-TO-MAN MARRIAGE. YOU KNOW THAT? THIS IS GOING ON. DOING EVERYTHING NONSENSE.
Giriraja: Actually their leader…
Prabhupada: And they are concluding that they cannot stop committing sins and Jesus Christ will take account for them. Therefore it is very good religion, that “We can do whatever nonsense we like, and if we keep our faith in Jesus Christ, then we are saved.” Papa-buddhih, namno balad papa-buddhih. Great offenders. So what news?
Giriraja: Well, the reason I came up is I’m going to try to phone Mr. Rajda now.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Giriraja: Going to try to phone Mr. Rajda. And considering that the Prime Minister may not have that much time… We had discussed that he should come here to meet you, but suppose if we fix up, say, a minimum time if he can’t come here, say at least a half hour undisturbed, something like that, is it possible to fix in the city or we should just insist that…
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: He’s suggesting that if the Prime Minister can’t give that much time, whether you would go to see him? Actually, if you give the idea that Prabhupada wants to see him in the morning hours…
Giriraja: Yeah, I’m going to.
Tamala Krsna: I mean, if he says that that’s not possible…
Prabhupada: That is not respectful.
Giriraja: No.
Tamala Krsna: Not at all respectful.
Prabhupada: Then he does not know how to honor a saintly person. It is useless to meet him. If he has no respect for saintly person, if he thinks greater than saintly person, then he’s useless.
Tamala Krsna: Then nothing will come of it, anyway. And if we give this opportunity, that he come in the morning, if he…
Prabhupada: No, no, apart from that, if he has got that sense, that “I am very big man, so everyone should come here,” he’s useless. We cannot do anything with him.
Giriraja: That’s what I thought.
Prabhupada: Very beginning is…
Giriraja: On the wrong foot.
Tamala Krsna: No, he has to come to see you,
Srila Prabhupada. Oh, there’s so many examples in the sastra of great personalities. Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu refused to see, what to speak of going there.
Giriraja: I agree with you.
Prabhupada: Even big, big kings, Akbar, Mansingh, they used to, used to come to Rupa Gosvami. Giriraja: No, I agree with you completely.
Prabhupada: Did… He demanded like that?
Giriraja: No. When I spoke to Mr. Rajda I said that the Prime Minister should come here, and Mr. Rajda agreed. But just now, when I… I just spoke to Gopala. I was on my way to make the call. So he said that I should just ask you about this.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Giriraja: I was just going to phone, and I mentioned to Gopala Krsna Prabhu that I was going to make this call. So I said that, you know, the Prime Minister was going to be coming here, so he… And I said that I also, in the call I wanted to make that very clear so there was no mistake. And he said that, well, he might be too busy to come here and that he…
Prabhupada: Gopala said.
Giriraja: Yeah. So I thought it would be better just to…
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of.
Giriraja: Yeah. No, I agree completely. I mean, you’re millions and billions of times greater than anyone, so there’s no question…
Prabhupada: No, apart from that, if one has no proper respect for a saintly person, he’s useless man. You cannot have any benefit. Or neither he can derive any benefit.
Giriraja: Yeah.
Tamala Krsna: From all sides.
Giriraja: Because he’ll think he has nothing to learn, that he is already in the best position.
Prabhupada: And we don’t require any from, anything from them, but for the whole human society’s welfare we can suggest him, “Do like this.” That is our… But we don’t require anything from them.
Giriraja: I know that. This is your…
Prabhupada: Of course, sometimes we are in difficulty. We ask them something.
Tamala Krsna: But that’s their duty, anyway. Ksatriyas should provide protection for the saintly person. Giriraja: Anyway, our real protector is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Giriraja: He has… Because we’ve seen so many difficulties. Nobody could see any solution, but…
Prabhupada: That one Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s devotee was ordered to be hanged.
Giriraja: I didn’t know that.
Prabhupada: Gopinatha Pattanayaka.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah.
Prabhupada: All the devotees approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu, thinking that “He must… The king will excuse him.” He never agreed. “Oh, I cannot do that. If he has done something wrong, then let him…” Of course, he was saved and protected by Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s good wish, but He never agreed. These are some of the examples that… Simply depend on Krsna. But if they are actually respectful, we can ask them. There is… But if it is difficult job… Visayinam sandarsanam atha yosit… We cannot keep so strictly, but these are the principles taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Giriraja: SO THAT PRINCIPLE ABOUT LIVING TOGETHER AND SALARY… THAT IS…
Giriraja: That is meant to apply everywhere in the society.
Prabhupada: OH, YES. THIS IS EXPLOITATION OF THE SOCIETY.
Giriraja: I know. Since I’ve been preaching more, I’ve been able to see how much labor and endeavor is going in just to maintain so many idle people. I know you’ve been saying this for a long time, and now, you know, I feel the strength to actually change that, that only those who are really sincere workers can stay.
Prabhupada: Otherwise no need. WE NEED THEIR SERVICE, BUT NOT BY BEING SALARIED. THAT IS NOT GOOD. (end)
JSD 6.5 Slaughterhouse Civilization Srila Prabhupada: No, they are not brahmanas. Those who give education in exchange for money–they are not brahmanas. For instance, we are lecturing, educating people. We don’t say, “Give us a salary.” We simply ask them, “Please come.” That is why we are cooking food and holding so many free festivals. “We’ll give you food.
We’ll give you a comfortable seat. Please come and hear about self-realization and God consciousness.” We are not asking money–“First of all pay the fee; then you can come and learn Bhagavad-gita.” We never say that. But these so-called teachers who first of all bargain for a salary–“What salary will you give me?”–that is a dog’s concern. That is not a brahmana’s concern. A BRAHMANA WILL NEVER ASK ABOUT A SALARY. A brahmana is eager to see that people are educated. “Take free education and be educated; be a human being”–this is a brahmana’s concern: You see? I came here not to ask for any money but to give instruction.
75-01-12. Letter: Kirtiraja Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated Dec. 31, 1974 and have noted the contents. Any householder devotee who is working full-time (with his wife) as a sankirtana book distributer, of temple managerial duties, artist, cook, etc. shall be provided food, shelter, and other bare minimum necessities by the temple itself. They should not cook their own meals separate from the temple meals.
If they have children, then some minimal allowance may be given according to the number of children. If they want anything extra or over and above what the temple president sees as absolute necessity, then they should work outside–the temple cannot pay for anything beyond the bare necessities. And definitely, the BBT CANNOT PAY ANY SALARY TO ANYBODY. Our philosophy is “simple living and high thinking”–not sense gratification. The temple presidents and leaders (elder students) must show this by example. Temple or asrama means for renunciation and renounced persons. If one is engaged in self-realization process, then his material necessities become almost nil. Persons who do not like this can work outside.
75-07-16.Par Letter: Paramahamsa: Regarding the restaurant, why they should get salary? THERE SHOULD BE NO SALARY.
Thus, a real practitioner of the Bhakti Yoga who is sincerely and seriously desirous of becoming a devotee is not interested anywhere within this material world, however very opulent it may be as His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada explains in a Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam, July 1, 1976, New Vrindaban ;
“Therefore Prahlada Maharaja is very serious that visargah, stop this visargah. Go back, directly to Krsna. Don’t go even in this, any planetary system within this material world. We have got description of this planetary system, but there is also fight between the demons and the daityas. There is also not peace. There is struggle for existence. Sometimes one party is gaining above another party, and sometimes one’s kingdom is attacked by another party, the demons attacking demigod’s cities. They are attacking. The struggle for existence you’ll find everywhere. A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah. Therefore a devotee is not interested anywhere within this material world, however very opulent it may be. There may be roads and instead of the stone–diamonds, coral. That does not attract. They are not interested. They are interested to go to Vrndavana and become a grass there. This is devotee. Just like Uddhava, as soon as he entered Vrndavana, he immediately fell down on the road thinking that “On this street Krsna has walked, His friends have walked, there are footprints.” So this is the ambition of a devotee. They are not interested for diamond roads or pearl roads. No.”
So we can see and learn from Srila Prabhupada’s lecture that how difficult it is to be a Devotee let alone becoming a guru and accepting ones’s own disciples in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon world wide.
Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya.