(BY: A GROUP OF SRILA PRABHUPADA DISCIPLES & FOLLOWERS)
nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
śrīmate bhaktivedānta- svāmin iti nāmine
namas te sārasvate deve gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe
nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi- pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe
I offer my respectful obeisances unto His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupāda, who is very dear to Lord Kṛṣṇa, having taken shelter at His lotus feet.
Our respectful obeisances are unto you, O spiritual master, servant of Sarasvatī
Gosvāmī. You are kindly preaching the message of Lord Caitanyadeva and delivering
the Western countries, which are filled with impersonalism and voidism.
PART 2 [two of four]
A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. THAT’S ALL. OTHERWISE NOBODY CAN BECOME GURU
SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLE
Srila Prabhupada’s Disciple
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2265.htm
ONE WHO IS ACCEPTING DISCIPLINE FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA IS SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLE.
Note: In ISKCON we are ALL being DISCIPLINED by Srila Prabhupada (we receive instructions (DISCIPLINE) FROM Srila Prabhupada’s books. Even the most basic discipline, 16 rounds of Hare Krishna Mantra and four Regulative Principles are coming FROM Srila Prabhupada. Common sense — if you ARE being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada then it follows you ARE Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. How can it be otherwise?
The MEANING OF THE WORD “DISCIPLE”
Srila Prabhupada: “Discipline… Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must… That should be uniform. Otherwise, sisya… sisya, the word sisya, it comes from the root, verb, sas-dhatu. sas. sas means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. sastra. sashtra means weapon, and sastra, scripture, and sisya… These things have come from the one root sas-dhatu. So sas-dhatu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that “Obedience is the first law of discipline,” or something. They say, “Obedience is the first law of discipline”? So I am right? “Obedience is…”? That is the…
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that’s more or less what it is.
Srila Prabhupada: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. “Obedience is the first law of discipline.” So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple.
(Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, March 8, 1976 in Mayapur)
DISCIPLE MEANS ONE WHO FOLLOWS DISCIPLINE.
Note: Discipline comes from Srila Prabhupada. We are actually being disciplined by Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who has given us the regulative principles of no meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication (including tea and coffee), no illicit sex, and no gambling. It is Srila Prabhupada who has made it a regulative principle for us to chant sixteen rounds on the beads HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE /HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE.
Note: Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all the instructions, the guidance required for us to get ourselves out of the clutches of the modes of material nature. In fact, Srila Prabhupada is personally present as his books.
“There is NO DIFFERENCE between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamtra, Adi-lils 1, Text 350
Note: Since the instructions of the spiritual master and the spiritual master are not different, one can be the disciple of Srila Prabhupada by following his discipline and can be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. Another point is he can be considered both direct disciple and not direct simultaneously, because Srila Prabhupada is still present in his instruction form (His books). The following example will illustrate the point.
Note: Srila Krsnadasa kaviraja is the example of both direct and not direct disciple simultaneously. (THE PHILOSOPHY OF SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE).
“A direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami was Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The author of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, stands as the DIRECT DISCIPLE of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, who initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn initiated Srila Gaurakishore dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self. Since we belong to this chain of disciplic succession from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this edition of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta will contain nothing newly manufactured by our tiny brains, but only remnants of food originally eaten by the Lord Himself.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamra, Adi-lila 1 )
Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was not actually a direct disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami, but he FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He therefore ACTED ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTIONS of Rupa Gosvami and prayed in every chapter for his mercy.
(Sri Caitanya-caritamra, Antya-lila, 19.102)
WHO IS SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLE?
Srila Prabhupada: “Who is my disciple? First of all let him FOLLOW STRICTLY THE DISCIPLINED RULES.
Devotee (2): As long as one is following, then he is…
Srila Prabhupada: Then he is all right.”
(Srila Prabhupada’s Morning Walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit)
“You do not require to worry as I shall never leave you, you are my disciple and I am your spiritual master, so there is no question, AS LONG AS you follow my instructions, that I shall ever leave you. Just remember under all circumstances to chant sixteen rounds of japa daily, offer your prasadam to Krsna, and do all of the things which you already know, as you are senior disciple. These things will protect you under all conditions, without any doubt.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Bhaktijana, September 21, 19720
“SO LONG AS one follows the principles, he continues to be my disciple.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, November 7, 1975)
“SO LONG AS one continues to follow the rules and regulations, he continues to be my disciple wherever he may be.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tusta Krsna, November 9, 1975)
“Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning. THIS DEFYING MEANS TO DISCONNECT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. AND ANYONE WHO DEFIES AND THEREFORE DISCONNECTS THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SPIRITUAL MASTER can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Jayapataka, July 11, 1969)
“Please always try to REMEMBER ME BY MY TEACHINGS AND WE SHALL ALWAYS BE TOGETHER. Just like I have written in the first publications of Srimad-Bhagavatam, “The spiritual Master lives forever by His divine instruction and the disciple lives with him.”, because I have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the chalked out path layed down by the great acharyas and in the end you will see.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Cidananda, November 25, 1973)
WHO IS NOT SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLE?
(Initiation does not bear any meaning!)
“Regarding your question of an initiated person falling prey to the maya, the answer is that so long we are in this material world, there is always chance of being spoiled by Maya, so we must stick with vow to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The Spiritual Master’s business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bonafide Spiritual Master HIS INITIATION DOES NOT BEAR ANY MEANING. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the Spiritual Master. Therefore, if the Spiritual Master is bonafide and the disciple is serious to abide by His order, then the success is sure.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, January 11, 1970)
OTHERWISE THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLES
“My advice is always chant 16 rounds minimum and follow the four regulative principles. All of my disciples must agree on this point OTHERWISE THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLES.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Raja Laksmi, February 17, 1976)
AGAINST THE PRINCIPLE
“Unless absolutely necessary, one should keep head shaven and not allow the hair to grow long. If absolutely necessary, one can dress like an American gentleman, with short hair, but long hair is prohibited. The reason that one with long hair is not my disciple is because he is AGAINST THE PRINCIPLE. Unless absolutely necessary one should keep hair short, and if necessary one can dress like an American gentleman with short hair. It is not expected that everyone will join. For that reason we can’t compromise. The tendency is there to be hippy. When the acaryas are seen with beard, that is during Caturmasya, July-September. If observed strictly there is not simply a beard. There are so many rules and regulations. One can’t eat a variety of foods. Only kitri prepared and poured on the floor, and then licked up. There are so many other rules also. THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THAT THEY KEPT BEARD.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dhrstaketu, July 17, 1976)
Note: There are many so-called Prabhupada disciples – but only in name. They in fact decline to follow Srila Prabhupada’s discipline hence they are Srila Prabhupada disciples in name only. They show superficial lip service to Srila Prabhupada.
DISCIPLE IN NAME ONLY
Srila Prabhupada: And the Bon Maharaja is his follower. HE’S IN NAME a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, BUT HE’S A SERVANT OF Vivekananda.
Tamala Krsna: He’s very similar to him.
Srila Prabhupada: He’s a great appreciator of Vivekananda. He has put in his curriculum Vivekananda philosophy, Gandhi philosophy. Rascal, what philosophy they have got?
(Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, New York, July 10, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada: “There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaishnavas in this Krishna Consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. A false acarya may try to override a vaishnava by a high-court decision, (2/3 hand vote) but Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that he is nothing but a disciple of Kali-yuga.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila., Ch.1, Text 218 / 220, purport)
STEALING SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLES, HIS PROPERTIES, FOR ONESELF (BECOMING SELF MADE GURU-BY BOGUS GBC APPOINTMENT OF 2/3 MAJORITY VOTES) HAS GRAVE CONSEQUENCES:
THE PERFECT EXAMPLE IS KING NRGA. HE WAS VERY POWERFUL AND VERY PIOUS, BUT DUE TO THE SMALL MISTAKE OF UNKNOWINGLY USURPING A BRAHMANA’S COW, HE WAS CONDEMNED TO THE ABOMINABLE LIFE OF A LIZARD. Ordinary poison affects only those who drink it, and ordinary fire can be extinguished simply by pouring water on it; BUT THE ARANI FIRE IGNITED BY THE SPIRITUAL POTENCY OF A BRAHMANA CAN BURN TO ASHES THE WHOLE FAMILY OF A PERSON WHO PROVOKES SUCH A BRAHMANA.” (Formerly, the brahmanas used to ignite the fire of sacrifice not with matches or any other external fire but with their powerful mantras, called arani.) “IF SOMEONE EVEN TOUCHES A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY, HE IS RUINED FOR THREE GENERATIONS. HOWEVER, IF A BRAHMANA’S PROPERTY IS FORCIBLY TAKEN AWAY, THE TAKER’S FAMILY FOR TEN GENERATIONS BEFORE HIM AND TEN GENERATIONS AFTER HIM WILL BECOME SUBJECT TO RUINATION.”
A PERSON WHO TAKES AWAY PROPERTY WHICH HAS EITHER BEEN AWARDED TO A BRAHMANA OR GIVEN AWAY BY HIM IS CONDEMNED TO LIVE FOR AT LEAST 60,000 YEARS AS MISERABLY AS AN INSECT IN STOOL. THEREFORE I INSTRUCT YOU, ALL MY BOYS AND RELATIVES PRESENT HERE, DO NOT, EVEN BY MISTAKE, TAKE THE POSSESSION OF A BRAHMANA AND THEREBY POLLUTE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY. IF SOMEONE EVEN WISHES TO POSSESS SUCH PROPERTY, LET ALONE ATTEMPTS TO TAKE IT AWAY BY FORCE, THE DURATION OF HIS LIFE WILL BE REDUCED. HE WILL BE DEFEATED BY HIS ENEMIES, AND AFTER BEING BEREFT OF HIS ROYAL POSITION, WHEN HE GIVES UP HIS BODY HE WILL BECOME A SERPENT. A SERPENT GIVES TROUBLE TO ALL OTHER LIVING ENTITIES.
(Krsna Book, Chapter 64 – The Story of King Nrga)
STEALING SRILA PRABHUPADA’S DISCIPLES BY TRICKERY
Note: It has been a common practice among Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers to steal Srila Prabhupada’s disciples by trickery. Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja are also known to have re-initiated Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Narayana Maharaja is also a culprit in this deplorable un-Vaisnava, offensive, insulting conduct. This act proves they are conditioned souls.
From the letter below one can see that history repeats itself; because they are conditioned souls they ventured to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples. Thus, they were caught out as Srila Prabhupada clearly says of the action: “SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION.”
THE RE-INITIATING BUSINESS
“In meantime, I have also received one letter which is very depressing from Hrsikesa. I understand that he has been induced by Bon Maharaja to be initiated by him for giving him shelter, and this foolish boy has accepted his inducement. This isn’t very happy news, and I have replied Hrsikesa’s letter in the following words, which please take note, and in the future, we shall be very cautious about them. “My Dear Hrsikesa, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of March 14, 1968, and I am greatly surprised. I AM GREATLY SURPRISED FOR BON MAHARAJA’S INITIATING YOU IN SPITE OF HIS KNOWING THAT YOU ARE ALREADY INITIATED BY ME. SO IT IS DELIBERATE TRANSGRESSION OF VAISNAVA ETIQUETTES AND OTHERWISE A DELIBERATE INSULT TO ME. I DO NOT KNOW WHY HE HAS DONE LIKE THIS BUT NO VAISNAVA WILL APPROVE OF THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. I very much appreciate your acknowledgement of my service unto you and you will always have my blessings, BUT YOU MUST KNOW THAT YOU HAVE COMMITTEE. A GREAT BLUNDER. I do not wish to discuss on this point more elaborately now, but if you are desirous to know further about it, I shall be glad to give you more enlightenment. Mukunda is not here. He has gone to L.A. Hope you are well.” If Hrsikesa writes you letter I think you may avoid reply. I DO NOT APPROVE BOTH HRSIKESA’S AND BON MAHARAJA’S THIS OFFENSIVE ACTION. Hoping you are both well.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter to Mukunda, March 26, 1968)
Note: In venturing to initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples —they could not even have understood the philosophy properly. As It is clearly stated: A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. For them to Initiate Srila Prabhupada’s disciples they would be falling into a trap of REJECTING Srila Prabhupada as the Initiating Guru—DIRECT INSULT-committed BOTH by the so-called disciple of Srila Prabhupada and their conditioned soul “gurus”.
“The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN.”
(sri Caitanya-caritamra, Adi-lila 1.35: The Spiritual Masters)
HARE KṚṢṆA HARE KṚṢṆA KṚṢṆA KṚṢṆA HARE HARE
HARE RĀMA HARE RĀMA RĀMA RĀMA HARE HARE
In his article http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-14/editorials11332.htm, the Editor of the Sun Sampradaya Shri Rocana Dasa prabhu writes ;
” Right now we’re in the post-samadhi period of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada……….. ”
No doubt, the Editor Shri Rocana Dasa Prabhu not only promotes the exalted position of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada but similtanously he misrepresents and thus misleads also when he describes in glorification by stating that Srila Prabhupada is in the post-Samadhi which means he is no longer available.
The question is :
Is Srila Prabhupada not in Samadhi during and after his manifested Lila ?
Where does this concept of pre/post Samadhi come from ?
Does this mean that Srila Prabhupada is physically dead and gone ?
Can some body please explain and answer these questions because Shri Rocana dasa does not entertain these questions and therefore, do not publish on his web site ?
Hari BOL.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
“Post samadhi” is a very offensive term that was coined by Rabindra Svarupa and used frequently by Rocana and his supporters, to prove that Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone.
Ravindra Swarupa said: “Send Prabhupada a letter and tell us what he replies”
Ravindra and Rocana never understood the philosophy that the Acarya is NOT dead and gone
Srila Prabhupada: “It is not that he dead and gone, it is not spiritual understanding”
(Srila Prabhupada lecture Atlanta GA 1975)
“Post samadhi” is used in Rocana’s writings to prove that Srila Prabhupada is dead and gone, and with him all his instructions. But still Rocana is not able to prove that Srila Prabhupada has stopped giving Diksa. How can he prove it? Diksa to him means formality: throw banana and sesame seeds in fire sacrifice – bas! Initiated!
Rocana will never reply to these questions. He is like the owl who cannot see during the daytime, so he refuses to see the reality.
Rocana has been preaching since 1977 that Srila Prabhupada is the posthumous, post samadhi, and post mortem person, and basically no one cares what else he has to say since this is very offensive in itself.
The siddhanta of Rocana and the siddhanta of the GBC are identical, we need a living guru, we need to insult the acharyas by calling them post mortem, where is there any difference between what Rocana says and what the bogus GBC gurus are saying?
“If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, then it is a duck. When he uses GBC arguments, GBC logic, GBC style terminology and arguments, then guess what: HE IS ONE OF THEM.”
Rocanas so called “Ritvik-Vada, calling Srila Prabhupada a Ritvikist, is completely disgusting and offensive. It goes against everything that Prabhupad has clearly put forth. The distinctions between vani and vapuh are elementary, simple to understand by every one. Why can’t people just ‘get it’? Have they been lobotomized or brainwashed by ISK’CONS bogus philosophy?
All about Rocana’s foolosophy
http://www.harekrsna.org/gbc/black/rocana.htm
This was written a while back but it will explain the difference between Vapu Vadis Camp (Rocana, Duysanta etc) and Prabhupadanuga Camp who accept Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik System ORDER of 9th July 1977.
This is a REPLY to Rocana Prabhu on his COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of BOTH Guru AND Ritvik Issue:
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.”
Amar Puri Prabhu wrote to Rocana Prabhu and Rocana Prabhu Replies:
“So who gave you permission, Amar Puri, to decide that the system will be changed upon his departure so that names get sent to someone else? Or not sent? Or whatever?” — Rocana
Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada had ALREADY given instruction of HOW he wanted the prospective disciples ACCEPTED. The system was ALREADY in place. Besides this, use of LITTLE COMMON-SENSE is neccesary WHAT sort of person can REPRESENT Srila Prabhupada. If REPRESENTATIVE OF ACARYA falls down he CAN be REPLACED:
Note: OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE is the Ritvik Representative as per July 9th 1977 Order Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
Similarly, a disciple’s qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. IN OUR KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, THE REQUIREMENT IS THAT ONE MUST BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP THE FOUR PILLARS OF SINFUL LIFE-ILLICIT SEX, MEAT-EATING, INTOXICATION AND GAMBLING. IN WESTERN COUNTRIES ESPECIALLY, WE FIRST OBSERVE WHETHER A POTENTIAL DISCIPLE IS PREPARED TO FOLLOW THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. THEN HE IS GIVEN THE NAME OF A VAISNAVA SERVANT AND INITIATED TO CHANT THE HARE KRSNA MAHA-MANTRA, AT LEAST SIXTEEN ROUNDS DAILY. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. HE IS THEN RECOMMENDED FOR A SECOND INITIATION, DURING WHICH A SACRED THREAD IS OFFERED AND THE DISCIPLE IS ACCEPTED AS A BONA FIDE BRAHMANA.
770528me.vrn Conversations
Tamala Krsna: Of course, IF SOMEONE HAS A FALLDOWN, just like in the past some GBC men have fallen down…
Prabhupada: HE SHOULD BE REPLACED.
Tamala Krsna: Then he should be replaced. But that’s a serious falldown, not some minor discrepancy.
Prabhupada: THEY MUST BE ALL IDEAL ACARYA-LIKE. IN THE BEGINNING WE HAVE DONE FOR WORKING. Now we should be very cautious. ANYONE WHO IS DEVIATING, HE CAN BE REPLACED.
One can replace a Representative of Acarya if he deviates BUT one can NOT replace DIKSA Guru because he MUST be a Mahabhagavata OTHERWISE he is NOT DIKSA GURU. It is 3rd offense in chanting to accept any other than a Mahabhagavata:
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) TO DISOBEY THE ORDERS OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu diksitah
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.))
Rocana Dasa in his “Church of Rtvik”:
NOI 5
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)
“Nectar of Instruction, Text 5
If one reads the above Purport, which contains the statement used by the HKS to support their position, it is clear that Srila Prabhupada is suggesting that a guru should ideally be an uttama-adhikari. We have to keep in mind, however, the fact that Srila Prabhupada is Himself an uttama-adhikari and a Sampradaya Acarya. At the time Nectar of Instruction was published, the reader had a choice to take initiation directly from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada also clearly says in this quote that there are gurus in all three categories: kanistha, madhyama, and uttama-adhikari. He does not state that he is referring here to diksa gurus rather than siksa gurus. He does state that the problem with having a guru that is not uttama-adhikari is that the initiated can’t advance beyond the level of their guru’s realization. Consequently, he cautions that the disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as their guru. He does not say, however, that gurus in the other two categories are bogus, or are not part of the sampradaya, or are just pretending to be gurus but are actually not gurus. Clearly, the Hare Krishna Society would like you believe that he is saying these things. While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. ”
Mahesh: we will just take a segment of his ERRONEOUS understanding of the DIKSA Guru AND PROVE HIM COMPELETELY WRONG THAT KANISTHA AND MADHYAMA ARE **NOT** DIKSA GURU as he SPECULATES:
Rocana Dasa: “While it is absolutely true that there is no Sampradaya Acarya who has ever fallen down, and that certain things disqualify a diksa guru, they cannot make the case that Srila Prabhupada has instructed that one must never accept a kanistha or madhyama as diksa guru. ”
Mahesh:
NOI 5
“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.” (NOI5)
Some devotees are taking this above quote to mean that Kanistha can give Diksa. This is NOT what Srila Prabhupada says. There is NO mention of Diksa by kanistha. What it exactly says is about accepting DISCIPLES. Then suggests very strongly 2 points:
1)”..they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
2)“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari.
The question is can a Kanistha give DIKSA from this quote? The answer is NO!
So how can we establish that Kanistha does NOT give diksa?
Kanistha is a QUALIFIED Brahmana. But even such a QUALIFIED Brahmana is in MATERIAL CONTAMINATION. And because he has MATERIAL CONTAMINATION he does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge. What you do NOT have you can NOT give. And it is Transcendental Knowledge that frees one from ALL MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.
Definition of Diksa:
Madhya 15.108 The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya
Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
divyam jnanam yato dadyat
kuryat papasya sanksayam
tasmad dikseti sa prokta
desikais tattva-kovidaih
“Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.”
Madhya 4.111 Sri Madhavendra Puri’ s Devotional Service
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.
So here we see from above definition of Diksa quotes:
1) Transcendental Knowledge awakened, initiated
2) becomes freed from all material contamination; vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity
Now ask a simple question HOW can a Brahmana(Kanistha) who is NOT freed from MATERIAL CONTAMINATION GIVE DIKSA -BY WHICH- ONE BECOMES FREED FROM **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
Just take a look at how contradictory and stupid this looks:
Q1) HOW can a Brahmana (Kanistha) who is HIMSELF material contaminated free another person from **ALL** MATERIAL CONTAMINATION?
SB 9.19.25 P King Yayati Achieves Liberation
The word vidhuta, meaning “cleansed,” is very significant. Everyone in this material world is contaminated (karanam guna-sango ‘sya). Because we are in a material condition, we are contaminated either by sattva-guna, by rajo-guna or by tamo-guna. Even if one becomes a qualified brahmana in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna), he is still materially contaminated. One must come to the platform of suddha-sattva, transcending the sattva-guna. Then one is vidhuta-trilinga, cleansed of the contamination caused by the three modes of material nature.
Q2) If a Brahmana(Kanistha) had Transcendental Knowledge then why is in contaminated by goodness(sattva-guna)?
Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity.
Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination
Q3) So HOW can a Kanistha(Brahmana) who HIMSELF is material contaminated does NOT have Transcendental Knowledge give another person Transcendental Knowledge to free him?
Common-sense: What you do NOT have you CAN NOT give to others.
770214r2.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaisnava, that is… fall down.
Hari-sauri: So the varnasrama system is like for the kanisthas, Kanistha-adhikari.
Prabhupada: Kanistha?
Hari-sauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Kanistha-adhikari, yes.
Hari-sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari means he must be a brahmana. That is kanistha-adhikari. The spiritual life, kanistha-adhikari, means he must be a qualified brahmana. That is kanistha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brahmana, that is kanistha-adhikari.
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
The brahmana means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brahmana there is no question of Vaisnava.
Hari-sauri: No question of?
Prabhupada: Vaisnavism.
760206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
Madhya 20.59 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science
PURPORT
This verse is spoken by Prahlada Maharaja in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.9.10). A brahmana is supposed to be qualified with twelve qualities. As stated in the Mahabharata:
dharmas ca satyam ca damas tapas ca
amatsaryam hris titiksanasuya
yajnas ca danam ca dhrtih srutam ca
vratani vai dvadasa brahmanasya
“A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana.”
Bhagavad-gita describes the brahminical qualities in this way:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness–these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (Bg. 18.42)
In the Muktaphala-tika, it is said:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksanty-arjava-virakta yah
jnana-vijnana-santosah
satyastikye dvisad gunah
“Mental equilibrium, sense control, austerity, cleanliness, tolerance, simplicity, detachment, theoretical and practical knowledge, satisfaction, truthfulness and firm faith in the Vedas are the twelve qualities of a brahmana.”
730828BG.LON Lectures
So first of all, we have to become brahmana. Then Vaisnava. Brahmana simply knows that “I am spirit soul,” aham brahmasmi. Brahma janati iti brahmana. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. By such knowledge one becomes prasannatma. Means relieved. As you feel relief… When there is burden on your head, and the burden is taken away you feel relieved, similarly, this ignorance that “I am this body” is a great burden, a burden upon us. So when you get out of this burden, then you feel relieved. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma. Means when actually one understands that “I am not this body; I am soul,” then he has to work so hard for maintaining this body, so he gets relief that “Why I am working so hard for this lump of material things? Let me execute my real necessity of life, spiritual life.” That is great relief. That is great relief. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. The relief means there is hankering, no more lamentation. These are the brahma-bhutah.
SB 1.2.20 P Divinity and Divine Service
The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brahmana by qualification. A BRAHMANA IS THE SYMBOL OF SATTVA-GUNA, OR THE MODE OF GOODNESS. AND OTHERS, WHO ARE NOT IN THE MODE OF GOODNESS, ARE EITHER KSATRIYAS, VAISYAS, SUDRAS OR LESS THAN THE SUDRAS. THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE IS THE HIGHEST STAGE OF HUMAN LIFE BECAUSE OF ITS GOOD QUALITIES. SO ONE CANNOT BE A DEVOTEE UNLESS ONE AT LEAST QUALIFIES AS A BRAHMANA. The devotee is already a brahmana by action. But that is not the end of it. AS REFERRED TO ABOVE, SUCH A BRAHMANA HAS TO BECOME A VAISNAVA IN FACT TO BE ACTUALLY IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL STAGE. A PURE VAISNAVA IS A LIBERATED SOUL AND IS TRANSCENDENTAL EVEN TO THE POSITION OF A BRAHMANA. IN THE MATERIAL STAGE EVEN A BRAHMANA IS ALSO A CONDITIONED SOUL BECAUSE ALTHOUGH IN THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE THE CONCEPTION OF BRAHMAN OR TRANSCENDENCE IS REALIZED, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUPREME LORD IS LACKING. ONE HAS TO SURPASS THE BRAHMINICAL STAGE AND REACH THE VASUDEVA STAGE TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD KRSNA.
Divya-jnana means : Divya TRANSCENDENTAL and Jnana means KNOWLEDGE
So UNLESS one is on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM means Uttama Adhikari (Maha Bhagavata) there can NOT be any question of Transcendental Knowledge of ones CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION coming FROM him. THIS EFFECTIVLY DISQUALIFIES KANISTHA AND MADHYAM (MIDDLE STAGE) FROM GIVING DIKSA — AUTOMATICALLY.
Hrde means heart and Prokasito means revealed just as in prakasa – manifested Krsna becomes manifest in the heart of the Pure Devotee.
760711CC.NY Lectures
Prabhupada: Divya-jnana hrde prokasito. What is that divya-jnana? Divya-jnana is that we are all servant of Krsna, and our only business is to serve Krsna. Divya-jnana. This is divya-jnana. It is not difficult at all. Simply we have… We have become servant of so many things–servant of society, servant of community, servant of country, servant of wife, servant of children, servant of dog and so many. “Now let me become servant of Krsna.” This is divya-jnana. Diksa. Diksa means from this divya-jnana. That is di. And ksa means ksapayati, expands.
When at the stage of Madhyama Adhikari one is RECEPIENT of THAT Diksa in the HEART from SRILA PRABHUPADA he becomes a SERVANT OF KRSNA. He relishes a particular mellow (Rasa) of his relationship with Krsna. This point HE SEES KRSNA and HIS RELATIONSHIP (svarupa) is established. So it is not so CHEAP to be Diksa guru.
Madhya 8.83 Talks Between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya
The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows only when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee. That is svarupa-siddhi, the perfection of one’s eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Svarupa-siddhi, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord, may be situated in one of the transcendental mellows.
Note: When Krsna is TRANSFERRED FROM Pure devotees HEART to another Pure devotee then there is DIKSA. Divya jnana revealtion of ones CONSTITUTIONAL positon Svarupa is UNDERSTOOD. This may take many many many births — NOT so cheap.
SB 10.2.18 P Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.
NoI 5
A madhyama-adhikari has received spiritual initiation from the spiritual master and has been fully engaged by him in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.
Antya 4.192 T Sanatana Gosvami Visits the Lord at Jagannatha Puri
diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana
sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama
TRANSLATION
“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.
TEXT 193
sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya
aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya
TRANSLATION
“When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.
TEXT 194
martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma
niveditatma vicikirsito me
tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano
mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai
TRANSLATION
” ‘The living entity who is subjected to birth and death, when he gives up all material activities dedicating his life to Me for executing My order, and thus acts according to My direction, at that time he reaches the platform of immortality, and becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss of exchange of loving mellows with Me.’
PURPORT
This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Krsna. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Krsna accepts His service. However, Krsna does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmis may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaisnava-aparadha. In this connection one should consult Srila Sanatana Gosvami’s Brhad-bhagavatamrta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).
Note: It is SUCCESSION MEANS to SUCCEED:
SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila
In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that can give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
Note:Divya means Transcendental so HOW can a person who is NOT on Transcendental Knowledge platform give Transcendental Knowledge (Krsna) to another?
Even a Madhyama Adhikari is MIDWAY. Only Uttama Adhikari is Transcendental.
‘uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara(Cc. Madhya 22.65)
Uttama Adhikari delivers by definition.
When Krsna is TRANSFERRED to your HEART from Srila Prabhupada this is DIKSA your sinful activities are VANQUISHED because you SEE Krsna and YOUR relationship (Svarupa) is established with Krsna.
Note: ONE INITIATOR Srila Prabhupda.There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, but the initiator spiritual master is one.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
Furthermore, here is my reply to Dusyanta Dasa which shows clearly that VAPU is NOT necessary and since Rocana Prabhu is Vapuvadi ALSO this will point his ERROR in understanding that VAPU (Physical form) of Srila Prabhupada is NOT necessary to TRANSMIT Diksa (DIVYA JNANA):
Duysanta dasa: The ritviks pretend to have a Diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada after He has disappeared where as Srila Prabhupada has instructed to serve His vani after he has disappeared, its an eternal constant. So if you did not serve Srila Prabhupada’s vapuh how can you have a Diksa relationship????Diksa is a personal relationship with a Diksa Guru not with a Book.
Mahesh: This is another concoction from your Vapuvadi camp. WHERE does Srila Prabhupada say in his books that VAPU (physical form) is requirement for TRANSMISSION of Divya Jnana(Diksa)? Go on prove it Prabhu – we want evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s books ONLY.
SB 2.9.8 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent.
Note:In any case what the Vapuvadi camp got was FORMALITY INITIATION which Srila Prabhupada states is “That is not very important thing”. But the Vapuvadi camp want to make it that THIS is the main thing.
761016iv.cha Conversations
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. INITIATION IS FORMALITY. JUST LIKE YOU GO TO A SCHOOL FOR KNOWLEDGE, AND ADMISSION IS FORMALITY. THAT IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT THING.
SB 4.8.54 P Dhruva Maharaja Leaves Home for the Forest
Srimad Viraraghava Acarya, an acarya in the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya, has remarked in his commentary that candalas, or conditioned souls who are born in lower than sudra families, can also be initiated according to circumstances. THE FORMALITIES MAY BE SLIGHTLY CHANGED HERE AND THERE TO MAKE THEM VAISNAVAS.
Note: another thing is this FORMALITY INITIATION (1st and 2nd initiation) was conducted by representatives in many cases. So Srila Prabhupada was NOT EVEN at each and every place for fire sacrifice and name giving. Not only that BUT even the Gayatri Mantra was given in Tape and the instruction was given t o Temple Presidents.
Duysanta dasa: The relationship with Lord Krsna in His Bhagavad-Gita form is Shiksa Guru not Diksa Guru. So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.
Mahesh: So now YOU Vapuvadi camp must hunt for another Diksa guru according to your OWN statement Srila Prabhupada disappeared: “So after Srila Prabhupada disappeared He is only available in His Vani form , His Book form as Shiksa Guru.You dont have a Diksa Guru relationship after the disappearance.” These Vapuvadis have ZERO level of understanding on DIKSA.
Duysanta dasa: All you all did was to quote what the PROCESS of Diksa is-no problem. But what about your Diksa relationship serving Vapuh. When you serve Vani its Shiksa relationship. You have mixed up the types of relationships with the different Gurus when they are in their vapuh and when they are in their Vani.
Where does it say Shiksa Gurus dont take sins?
What is the point in being so judgemental and agressive ,how is that a Vaisnava quality or are you just conditioned soul yourselves?Try to be more cool, better to have a cool head.
Mahesh: That is your concocted opinion from Vapuvadi camp. You have to prove that Srila Prabhupada’s physically presence( Vapu) is required to give Diksa. Prove it from Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Adi 1.99 The Spiritual Masters
One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.
Adi 1.100 The Spiritual Masters
Through the actions of THESE TWO BHAGAVATAS THE LORD INSTILLS THE MELLOWS OF TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE INTO THE HEART OF A LIVING BEING, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee’s love.
Note:Does it say VAPU is the requirement – NO! Vapuvadis have CONCOCTED you need VAPU for transmission of DIKSA
SB 1.7.22 P The Son of Drona Punished
The spiritual master, BY HIS WORDS, CAN PENETRATE INTO THE HEART OF THE SUFFERING PERSON AND INJECT KNOWLEDGE TRANSCENDENTAL, which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.
690113LE.LA Lectures
Similarly, arcye sila-dhir gurusu na… Gurusu means those who are acaryas, to accept their body as ordinary man’s body, this is denied in the sastras. SO ALTHOUGH A PHYSICAL BODY IS NOT PRESENT, THE VIBRATION SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, VIBRATION. WHAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, THAT IS LIVING.
Note: It is FACTUALLY Srila Prabhupada who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS us through his books , tapes, cds. “becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.” indicates the position of Srila Prabhupada as the INITIATOR.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
Generally a spiritual master who CONSTANTLY INSTRUCTS a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
Note: Why the Vapuvadis can NOT grasp that there is no requirement for Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence to transmit diksa is because they are in mode of IGNORANCE(TAMO GUNA):
740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT.
72-12-14. Letter: Tusta Krsna
Next you ask if I am present in my picture and form? Yes. In form as well as in teachings. To carry out the teachings of guru is more important than to worship the form, but none of them should be neglected. Form is called vapu and teachings is called vani. Both should be worshiped. Vani is MORE important than vapu.
EVEN A SLIGHT COMMON-SENSE CAN TELL YOU THAT (DIKSA) DIVYA (TRANSCENDENTAL) JNANA CAN ONLY COME FROM TRANSCENDENTAL PERSON. Kanistha is NOT on TRANSCENDENTAL platform. Madhyama is MIDWAY and Uttama Adhikari is TRANSCENDENTAL BY DEFINITION:
661121BG.NY Lectures
And uttamam. Uttamam means “which is transcendental.” Ut means “trans-,” and tama means “darkness.” So uttama means “the knowledge which is beyond this material darkness.” This material world is called darkness, and when the knowledge surpasses this material world, material knowledge, that is really called uttama.
760420BG.MEL Lectures
Pavitram idam uttamam. Uttamam. Ut mean udgata, transcendental, and tama means this material world, darkness.
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
I was asked some questions by a devotee recently – the exchange will be of interest to others:
From: Mahesh Raja
To: XXX
Sent: Monday, 3 February 2014, 19:38
((Does it mean that as long as one is kanistha adhikari or less, there is no real pressing need to take disksa since it is only a formality?))
761016iv.cha Conversation Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?
Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
Note: KNOWLEDGE is the pressing need. One can do without admission in a school but he has to have knowledge. Srila Prabhupada wanted everyone to get admission in the “school” ie get initiated, spiritual name then progress to 2nd initiation stage Brahman initiation. Just because the situation now in ISKCON is topsy turvy does not mean that we are not making progress without the formality aspect.
The way forward is about ACQUIRING the actual Brahmanical (sattva guna) QUALIFICATIONS then progressing onwards to freeing from material bondage.
Brahmana (Kanistha)
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4258.htm
Formality is essential but it does not mean that you will not make progress if the conditions do not allow this formality Initiation. Whereas KNOWLEDGE you can not do without – at all!
Srila Prabhupada met Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati in 1922 but took initiation in 1933. That is 11 years.
((Or in other words if initiation is just a formality for most of us and knowledge or hearing from the pure devotee is more important why insist on the ritvik order ?))
Schools are important although you can study at home and have knowledge. Srila Prabhupada wanted the Ritvik System so that everyone can make progress like in a school. If there is a WHOLE SET-UP your progress is EASIER than at home. The factor for going to get admission in school is KNOWLEDGE.
((Why is the ritvik order so important since most of us are not even qualified to take real diksa?
Is it to help us avoid taking diksa from false guru and get cheated as all kanisthas do?))
The Ritvik System helps BOTH parties make progress the Disciples accepts Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru and the Ritvik is helped because he does not take have to take the sinful reactions of the disciples because the disciples are Srila Prabhupada’s NOT the Ritviks.
If the person acts guru (priest) independently and accepts disciples then he has to suffer the resultant SINFUL reactions:
SB 6.7.35 P Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
The professions of a qualified brahmana are pathana, pathana, yajana, yajana, dana and pratigraha. The words yajana and yajana mean that a brahmana becomes the priest of the populace for the sake of their elevation. ONE WHO ACCEPTS THE POST OF SPIRITUAL MASTER NEUTRALIZES THE SINFUL REACTIONS OF THE YAJAMANA, THE ONE ON WHOSE BEHALF HE PERFORMS YAJNA. THUS THE RESULTS OF THE PIOUS ACTS PREVIOUSLY PERFORMED BY THE PRIEST OR SPIRITUAL MASTER ARE DIMINISHED. THEREFORE PRIESTHOOD IS NOT ACCEPTED BY LEARNED BRAHMANAS. Nevertheless, the greatly learned brahmana Visvarupa became the priest of the demigods because of his profound respect for them.
((Some devotees say they are just monitor gurus and giving diksa on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. they say no need to be Uttama to be monitor guru ; still they feel they are diksa guru
They say that Agni or the fire takes the karma of disciple at initiation and they only take the karma after initiation if the disciple misbehaves.))
The monitor does NOT give Diksa. In a school the monitor accepts the charge ON BEHALF of the teacher. It is not the monitors students. The students are the teachers.
The INITIATOR throughtout the process of Diksa is ONE. There is no TWO initiators. The HOLY name is given by the Ritvik ON BEHALF of PURE DEVOTEE Srila Prabhupada because the HOLY name KRSNA is property of PURE DEVOTEE. Krsna is not a property of CONDITIONED soul. Conditioned soul can NOT give Krsna. This is WHY ON BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada.
Divya Jnana is DIKSA and there is ONLY ONE INITIATOR the Maha Bhagavata on whose BEHALF the Ritvik can give 1st and 2nd initiation FORMALITIES on BEHALF of Srila Prabhupada the actual INITIATOR.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple’s energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A DEVOTEE MUST HAVE ONLY ONE INITIATING SPIRITUAL MASTER BECAUSE IN THE SCRIPTURES ACCEPTANCE OF MORE THAN ONE IS ALWAYS FORBIDDEN. There
is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.
KB 80 The Meeting of Lord Krsna with Sudama Brahmana
“If a man is sufficiently educated in student life under the guidance of a proper teacher, then his life becomes successful in the future. He can very easily cross over the ocean of nescience, and he is not subjected to the influence of illusory energy. My dear friend, everyone should consider his father to be his first teacher because by the mercy of one’s father one gets this body. The father is therefore the natural spiritual master. Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. Both of them are My representatives. There may be many spiritual masters who instruct, BUT THE INITIATOR SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ONE.
((According to sastra what is the correct understanding and what is the difference between a monitor guru and ritvik acarya?))
Ritvik July 9th 1977 is a CLEAR directive of what Srila Prabhupada wanted.
Srila Prabhupada has made no comparison on Ritvik Acarya and Monitor. But monitor is NOT the giver of DIVYA jnana DIKSA. Diksa is ONLY given by MAHA-BHAGAVATA Srila Prabhupada. Monitor CAN act as SIKSA guru with limited disciples.
EJ 1 Antimaterial Worlds
13. He must not take on unlimited disciples. This means that a candidate who has successfully followed the first twelve items can also become a spiritual master himself, just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. **I am in the initiator guru**, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they’re supposed to be **my disciples**. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are **initiated by me** spiritually.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.