Letter to Rocana from Sattvic dasa
Rochana Das: Obscuring the Sampradaya Sun
(Exposing darkness)
When we speak of the Sampradaya Sun we speak of he who is enlightening human society with transcendental knowledge or he who is the pride of the Sampradaya and I am sure Rochana is referring to His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Others (Gaudiya Math) May refer to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami and still others may refer to their own Guru.
I am concerned With Srila Prabhupada .
What I cannot accept is why Rochana prabhu is so adamant in maintaining that the ritviks are wrong to the point that he does not even want to discuss or publish any articles that directly deals with the subject.
I am making an attempt to analyze this discrepancy.
The Sampradaya is the chain of disciplic succession. There are four Vaisnava Sampradays. Our is the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya coming down from Lord Brahma to the present day. Srila Prabhupada is the “current link”. Has he ceased to be the link after his physical departure? Not to my knowledge.
There are many gaps between one Acharya and the next sometime thousands of years or more. We have Srila Vyasadeva and then immediately the next one is Madhvacharya. How many years in between the two great souls? So what exactly is the link? It is the transcendental knowledge. Such Knowledge remains intact in its principle but may differ in some detail according to time, place and circumstance. As such Acharyas may differ somewhat in the application of the principles by adopting means that are suitable for preaching Krishna consciousness to the people of that particular time.
As long as the teachings of the current link remain valid we can conclude that he remains the Acharya. One of the objections to the ritvik system is how will the disciplic succession go on? How can it stop with Srila Prabhupada? We need a living guru to connect us to the sampradaya etc.etc. This argument is by nature a faulty one.
First of all, no one can alter, add or subtract from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. No GBC no sannyasi, no one for as long as Sri Krishna decides. Yes. Because the continuation of the Sampradaya is in His hands. Not in the hands of conditioned souls in the way of continuing a business or family or a dynasty of kings. These are all mundane considerations that have no place in Vaisnava culture.
How is Rochana Das obscuring the Sun of the Sampradaya? Srila Prabhupada?
It’s plain and simple. He is, by denying Srila Prabhupada’s position as the initiator spiritual master for his society, leaving the door open for ambitious people that somehow there is some chance to become a guru (including himself perhaps). Otherwise why such an animosity to a direct order of the Acharya? After all if Srila Prabhupada cannot initiate (posthumously as they insultingly call it) then someone has to take up that very important service.
Furthermore. In the same breath he criticizes all the gurus in Iskcon, the GBC etc. So who is left? Is that you Rochana prabhu? Or who else. Speculation is very dangerous. Replacing a conditioned souls with another conditioned soul thinking that maybe (keep your finger crossed) he will not fall down is an utterly foolish proposition. And I don’t leave it at that. Fall down does not only mean having sex. Disobeying the order of the spiritual master is also a fall down. By definition the all gamut of hypocrites who are now occupying (by force) positions within Srila Prabhupada’s Institution are fallen.
I don’t want to make this article a long one. My concern is that devotees who visit the Sampradaya Sun are also taken for a ride. Different degrees of ignorance is still ignorance.
Rochana Das is, has and will continue to obscure Srila Prabhupada by imposing speculations. There is a need for proper, honest distribution of information to safeguard the spiritual interest of countless souls who want shelter of Krishna. The mercy of Krishna cannot be obtained unless we take refuge at the lotus feet of a Bona-fide spiritual master. That Spiritual master is Srila Prabhupada not any self-deluded conditioned soul.
Prabhupāda: Keep this sun always shining.
Then these glowworms will be finished.
The Sampradaya will continue with Srila Prabhupada as long as the Lord allows it. He will then make arrangements as He has done since time immemorial. We have to stop committing the sin of presumption thinking that we are more intelligent than our spiritual master.
I had only one morning walk with Srila Prabhupada. It was in 1976 in Mayapur, a pleasant January morning. We were only three of us and His Divine grace. It was Bhavananda, Tamal Krishna and me. Srila Prabhupada stopped in front of the main gate and stuck his cane on the ground. He looked in the sky and said with a very grave voice. “You cannot step over the head of the Spiritual Master”. He kept walking and said no more for the duration of the walk.
How many more time do we have to witness devotees stepping over the head of Srila Prabhupada? Tamal and Bhavananda went on doing just that and met with disaster both spiritual and material. You Rochana prabhu have to stop committing the same mistake and come to your senses otherwise your fate is sealed. Arrogance and over intelligence are not qualities of those who claim to be followers of Srila Prabhupada.
Let your Sampradaya Sun shine with the true teachings of Srila Prabhupada. He is the light of Iskcon and the eternal guide of any sincere seeker of transcendence. Give up this animosity to his order and bow down to his will.
Your servant
Sattvic Das
Please also see:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/doar.html
We have told this to Rocana prabhu MANY MANY MANY times to make him AWARE:
Rocana’s MISLEADING Anti Ritvik propaganda means he is DENYING Srila Prabhupada. The RISK is :
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
He will NOT be able to defeat this:
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
Contrary to some popular opinions, Rocana dasa has posted many pro-rtvik articles upon his Sampradaya Sun web site, well many enough for anyone seeking to familiarize themselves with the Rtvik position and the various pros and cons of the argument to acquaint themselves with both sides of the issue. Thst Rocana dasa’s editorial policy hasd changed to the point that he hardly now ever accepts any new Rtvik articles is however more reflective of the fact that there is hardly ever anything new in them, other than the authors name and a more recent date.. Thus for Rocana das to continually post the same Rtvik arguments and positions which he has already addressed, simply because the new articles have a new name and more recent date upon them would simply constitute propagandizing for a cause that he does not personally believe in. That Rocana dasa considers such new articles to ber propaganda is evidenced by the following:
Dear George Prabhu
Please accept my respects
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
…Thank you for your message and lucid insights. As I have personally known Rocana since the middle 1970s, and having followed the Sampradaya Sun since its inception, I must admit that I tend to agree with your assessment. I have also read your various articles throughout the years and I find the to be informative, accurate and to the point
“I have received many complaints from many devotees who have submitted articles to the Sampradaya Sun and which he has refused to publish. I know of at least eight devotees, all senior Prabhupada disciples, whom he has refused to publish,. because he labels their articles as ritvik propaganda..
Yasodanandana 10-4-2010
That Rocana dasa firmly believes that he has successfully defeated the Rtvik positions and arguments was evident to me even before his publication of his DOR, which I later pointed out had failed to even address his chief contention against the Rtvils which was that they are asiddhantic.
In an e-mail addressed to me before its publication Rocana writes:
Dear George,
Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.
You are waxing poetic, prabhu. You have a way with words.
We age, and ponder. And just as sastra recommends, we chant.
As for making headway with the Rtviks — yes. They just don’t know it yet.
We’re about 80% through with the project, which we fondly call “The Final
Defeat”. I think we’re safe to say that the logic and evidence put
forward by Krishnakant in TFO has now been fully and thoroughly
obliterated. This includes their key evidence: May 28th Conversation,
July 7th Conversation, July 9th Letter, Will and Codicil, and supplemental
devotee correspondences, and all the arguments they cobbled togehter
therefrom. Their arguments were poor, but difficult for many to wade
through, ourselves included, because Krishnakant was successful in blowing
them up into enormous paper tigers, then setting them aloft, filling the
sky with word balloons that just sounded so darned intelligent. Until you
deconstructed them, that is. Then they became word jugglery
extraordinaire. That is the essence of Rtvik-vada.
We’re now in process of addressing the pseudo-Rtviks and fence-sitters,
particularly those perched upon the ‘no living guru needed’ branch. While
some of their arguments are sound, many are not, and their consolidation
of quotes and arguments is fraught with philosophical error, I think. Now
we are writing to prove it.
So, it’s not coming fast, but it’s coming. We’ve been at this, off and
on, for 7 years now. We want to get done before the locusts return. And
no… not a peep from anyone on Word & A Staple. They don’t rebut it,
because they can’t. Not even Madhudvisa offered an argument.
your servant,
Rocana dasa
10-24-2011
As is evident from the above, Rocana dasa has little time and none to waste. Even though Rocana would feel that since he had already addressed and defeated all of the existing arguments by the Rtviks, for him to continue posting up articles restating the same positions as the onesd that he had already dealt with would require of him to endlessly have to re-hash the same issue each time it appeared in a new article in order to simply minimize its propagandist value. Why not instead simply refuse to publish any more of them unless they offered something new? I can find no fault with such a decision although I can appreciate the disappointment that these new authors must feel. I might though advise them to simply go over all of what has already been posted and come up with a new slant upon the Rtvik issue. It worked for me A SPECULATIVE KICK AT THE CAN – By Rocana dasa
although Rocana only conceded that what I had come up with was dangerous.
Ys George Smith
Rocana was part of the Guru Reform Committee with the Old Boys Club (the Bogus GBC). He knows where his MONEY is coming from.
This is about SLAVERY MAKING AND SCREWING MONEY:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
HOW can a Guru be REFORMED? Does this make ANY sense AT ALL? This means THEIR Gurus NEED REFORMING. LUNATICS are Gurus?
THIS means Rocana das does NOT understand WHAT a Diksa Guru is. Here is MORE PROOF:
Note: Rocana is thinking that Kanistha is a DIKSA Guru!!!
Rocana: Mahesh does not make a distinction between the issue of the qualifications of a bona fide spiritual master, and the fact that sastra acknowledges that there also exist kanishta and madhyam gurus. He does not distinguish between the qualifications of the uttama diksa, and the range of possibility the candidate has for the sorts of guru he might choose for himself, which includes not only uttama-diksa.
Mahesh: The “range of possibility” is non-existent. By definition ONLY Mahabhagavata is Diksa guru as described in CC Madhya 24.330
MAHĀ-BHĀGAVATA-śreṣṭho
brāhmaṇo vai gurur nṛṇām
sarveṣām eva lokānām
asau pūjyo yathā hariḥ
ahā-kula-prasūto ‘pi
sarva-yajñeṣu DĪKṢITAḤ
sahasra-śākhādhyāyī ca
na guruḥ syād avaiṣṇavaḥ
“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class.”
The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.
Please see FULL detailed analysis:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EVERYONE now KNOWS that their conditioned soul gurus are REJECTED. So they want to give them a
dress-up:
The bogus GBC rubber-stamped lunatic conditioned soul “gurus” dress-up campaign:
The same OLD wine NEW bottle
Here is an email exchange I recently received:
From: (name deleted)
Sent: Sunday, 3 May 2015, 16:04
Subject: Rocana’s Constitution
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-15/editorials12776.htm
2.2.1 Oath of Allegiance – Individual Members
“I state that I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, preeminent Acarya of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya and Founder-Acarya and Supreme Authority of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness As It Is, and in my diksa-guru (if so initiated) and/or siksa-guru(s) who have likewise imposed all faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.”
…
“I hereby pledge to follow as strictly as possible the rules, regulations and directives given by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. I further pledge to demonstrate in my personal dealings the values integral to an aspiring Vaisnava, as described in sastra.”
What kind of constitution, supposedly based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, rejects dozens of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions pertaining to the quality and authorization of a Diksa guru? Rocana thinks that these instructions can simply be ignored. This was enough for me to stop reading there.
Your Servant,
(name deleted)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let me make it VERY CLEAR — AGAIN:
Rocana’s MISLEADING Anti Ritvik propaganda means he is DENYING Srila Prabhupada. The RISK is :
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
He will NOT be able to defeat this:
Srila Prabhupada IS Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43094#more-43094
Only Maha-Bhagavata is Diksa Guru
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422#more-41422
Agreed Mashesh prabhu,
In NOI Text 6 purport, Srila Prabhupada emphatically states that even though a neophyte Vaisnava or one situated on the intermediary stage can accept disciples (hey even Sai Baba or the Maharishi can accept disciples haha), they can only be on the same platform and cannot advance well due to his INSUFFICIENT GUIDANCE. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.
Here Srila Prabhupada WARNS against accepting such a conditioned soul, however the PAD brigade construe this to mean he is giving approval!
As previously quoted from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur..
On the morning of Wednesday, August 8th 1934, Sriyukta Rajendranath Pal Chaudhuri Mahasaya, the famous Zamindar of Louhajang, came to Sri Gaudiya Matha accompanied by one of his employees. Offering his humble dandavats at the lotus feet of Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, he expressed his desire to hear some words on Sri Guru-tattva and the secret of diksa etc. Srila Prabhupada obligingly gave a valuable discourse for two hours.
Here Srila Bhaktisiddhanta clearly states the madhyama-adhikari can ONLY perform the ‘initial duties of diksa’ ie ritvik ceremonial function!
“Rajen Babu: Isn’t the kanistha-adhikari qualified to give initiation into the mantra?
Srila Sarasvati Prabhupada: Where is the kanishtha-adhikari coming from? Who gave him the adhikara? A kanishtha-adhikari can never become a guru.
Rajen Babu: Can a madhyama-adhikari give diksa?
Prabhupada: He can only perform the initial duties of diksa. It is the uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavata Vaisnava who is actually the diksa-guru. There are two types of Vaisnavas – the ragatmika and the raganuga. Those who are from the eternal realm offer service to Sri Krsna directly. These ragatmikas serve Sri Varshabhanavi and Her direct expansions. Those who perform direct service to the ragatmikas and take shelter in them through the performance of smarana are raganugas. These are spiritual gurus.”
Yhs, Bal.
In 1986 Rocana das was PART AND PARCEL of a 50 men ( yes! —-it is FIFTY!!!!) men Guru Reform Committee.
Now, just THINK!!! These CONDITIONED soul “gurus” LUNATICS who want to be worshipped AS GOOD AS GOD Vyasa puja etc NEEDED a 50 men Committee to REFORM them.
So——what happened?
Did they succeed? NO!
Judge a tree by the fruit it bears: Murderer gurus,Poison giver gurus, Prabhupada betrayer gurus, child rapists gurus, money screwing gurus, homosex gurus, womaniser gurus they are all still there. Not only that they managed to INCREASE their number. They have ALSO got a WOMAN who wants to be the CHIEF of all these gurus.
And NOW——they have got Rocana das to give them a NEW Constitution.
So what is this “new” constitution for? They have got VERY VERY VERY BAD PUBLIC IMAGE. So— they want to change this.
The Anti Ritvik CROOKS(bogus GBC voted in “gurus”) image is SOOOOOOO tarnished over internet they want something to HIDE under. They want to fool the public. Is it going work? NO WAY!
Rocana das is VERY CUNNINGLY playing with word Jugglery. Let me explain HOW.
Rocana wants to CREATE a NEW entity that is the current Diksa guru. He does NOT recognize the Diksa guru as Acarya. He is toying with TWO SEPARATE terms: The Acarya(Srila Prabhupada) and Diksa guru. He CUNNINGLY wants to SEPARATE the two so that the CONDITIONED soul Voted In by bogus GBC crooks can give “diksa”.
BUT THE FACT IS there is NO DIFFERENCE between the ACARYA AND Diksa guru. WHY? Because it is ONLY the ACARYA that GIVES DIKSA. So Rocana das’s INVENTION of TWO different entities is FLAWED:
There is ONLY ONE ENTITY: The Acarya that GIVES DIKSA. ***** If he is NOT Acarya then he is NOT Diksa Guru.***** The Diksa GURU is by QUALIFICATION Maha Bhagavata.
NOTE: It is ONLY ACARYA that CAN give DIKSA because even in NOD this is stated REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master it refers to SB 11.17.27 which is ACARYA.
Nectar of Devotion 7 — Evidence Regarding Devotional Principles
REGARDING ACCEPTING INITIATION from the spiritual master, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventeenth Chapter, verse 27, it is stated by Lord Krsna, “My dear Uddhava, the spiritual master must be accepted not only as My representative, but as My very self. He must never be considered on the same level with an ordinary human being. One should never be envious of the spiritual master, as one may be envious of an ordinary man. The spiritual master should always be seen as the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by serving the spiritual master one is able to serve all the demigods.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport — Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.
Note: Srila Prabhupada put it DELIBERATELY in all his books FOUNDER-ACARYA. Srila Prabhupada did NOT say he was only ISKCON founder. There is HYPHEN in between the words Founder AND Acarya which indicates HE IS ALSO ITS CURRENT ACARYA.
Adi 1.46 T The Spiritual Masters
acaryam mam vijaniyan
navamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyasuyeta
sarva-deva-mayo guruh
SYNONYMS
acaryam–the spiritual master; mam–Myself; vijaniyat–one should know; na avamanyeta–one should never disrespect; karhicit–at any time; na–never; martya-buddhya–with the idea of his being an ordinary man; asuyeta–one should be envious; sarva-deva–of all demigods; mayah–representative; guruh–the spiritual master.
TRANSLATION
“One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.”
PURPORT
This is a verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Krsna when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. He was specifically instructing how a brahmacari should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.
The spiritual master is also called acarya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science.
If one poses himself as an acarya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an acarya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real acarya. In fact, however, a bona fide acarya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an acarya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive of transcendental realization.
Note: there is ONE INJUNCTION:Acaryopasanam. WE HAVE TO WORSHIP THE ACARYA.
If he is NOT Acarya he is NOT worshiped as Diksa guru. Saksad Haritivena.
760819VP.HYD Lectures
Therefore in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the beginning is dharmah projjhita-kaitavo ‘tra paramo nirmatsaranam. So the… Somebody may envy that this person has sophisticated some disciples and they are offering prayers and puja. No, it is the system. Don’t envy the… Acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit. Acarya is the representative of God. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado. If you offer prayers, honor to the acarya, then Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead is pleased. To please Him you have to please His representative. “If you love me, love my dog.” And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said acaryopasanam. Acaryopasanam. WE HAVE TO WORSHIP THE ACARYA.
Note: Diksa is illustrated graphically here Vasudeva was on Suddha sattva(Maha Bhagavata) platform this is why from him Krsna is transferred to Devaki
SB 10.2.18 Prayers by the Demigods for Lord Krsna in the Womb:
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT: As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. THUS THE IMPORTANCE OF INITIATION IS MENTIONED HERE. UNLESS ONE IS INITIATED BY THE RIGHT PERSON, WHO ALWAYS CARRIES WITHIN HIS HEART THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, ONE CANNOT ACQUIRE THE POWER TO CARRY THE SUPREME GODHEAD WITHIN THE CORE OF ONE’S OWN HEART.
SB 8.5.29 P The Demigods Appeal to the Lord for Protection:
SATTVAM VISUDDHAM VASUDEVA-SABDITAM (Bhag. 4.3.23). In this material world, the three modes of material nature–goodness, passion and ignorance–prevail. Among these three, goodness is the platform of knowledge, and passion brings about a mixture of knowledge and ignorance, but the mode of ignorance is full of darkness. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead is beyond darkness and passion. He is on the platform where goodness or knowledge is not disturbed by passion and ignorance. THIS IS CALLED THE VASUDEVA PLATFORM. IT IS ON THIS PLATFORM OF VASUDEVA THAT VASUDEVA, OR KRSNA, CAN APPEAR.
Note: when Krsna is TRANSFERRED to another’s HEART from Maha Bhagavata then he can SEE Krsna and relationship(Svarupa) with Krsna is REVEALED. THAT is Diksa.
In Rocana’s Cunning MENTAL SPECULATION Constitution below note the words “AND in my diksa-guru (if so initiated)”.
So what Rocana WANTS is that the Acarya(Srila Prabhupada) does NOT give Diksa but there is another entity that gives Diksa. THIS HIS CLEVER WORD JUGGLERY. We have PROVED ABOVE that ONLY an ACARYA is Diksa guru. If he is NOT Acarya he is NOT Diksa Guru. BUT Rocana wants to CREATE/INVENT another entity that gives Diksa:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-15/editorials12776.htm
2.2.1 Oath of Allegiance — Individual Members
“I state that I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, preeminent Acarya of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya and Founder-Acarya and Supreme Authority of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness As It Is, AND in my diksa-guru (if so initiated) and/or siksa-guru(s) who have likewise imposed all faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.”
“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
Rocana was part of the Guru Reform Committee with the Old Boys Club (the Bogus GBC). He knows where his MONEY is coming from.”
I shouild hope that Rocana knows where his money os comimg from. Don;t you? Me? I’m not so partivular, I don;t care where the money is coming from, as long as it keeps coming.
Seriously, certiude is seized upon by some minds, not out of a determination for philosophical justification, but due to an emotional need for certitude. You see human beings, in the conditioned state, have a very low tolerance to existential oressure of any kind. For example, a mere several seconds of absolute terror is sufficient to drive a soul right out of his body. Existential pressure is also generated by a lack of certitude in regards to such questions as “where will I be going after I die” and a lot of the damned churches know this and so they try to scare you with threats of Hell fire should you even so much as dare to doubt them.
, Such concerns as these can create all types of anxiety.
Relief from the existential pressure occaisioned by such fears can come in the form of the truth, df course, but it can also or in the form of a lie. The blind faith belief in the lie as being the truth is actually all that one needs to relieve this pressure and it is usually a lot easier to obtain than the truth which requires considerably more scrutiny, challenge and effort to sort it out. Since we all are subject to the cheating propensity and being delusioned we usually just grab fow whatevers quick and handy. Since feelings are real the models or the lies that are associated with the feelings take on a glamor of reality. It makes no difference whatsoever to the believer that what he believes in has not been proven to be the truth through serious and scientific examination, the sinple illusion that it has been proven and the supportive assurabces of others who have accepted the same belief are quite enough for him.
The utility of a blind faith acceptance of a belief is the relief that it grants tp those who have accepted one without question or doubt. A clue that a person has accepted something out of a blind faith belief just to relieve themselves is that they become angry and even offensive towards anyone who questions the credulity of their belief system by questions and concerns that they themselves never even had, This is due to the fact that for the blind faith believer to even consider that what he has accepted might be untruthful threatens to rouse those old fears again.
Cheating religions, etc., make blind faith believers, so apparently does psuedo Krsna Consciousness, the type that some folk up here seem to think should be the standard. As Srila Prabhupada kept telling us however “Krsna Consciousness is scientific.”
“In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.”
(The Nectar of Instruction, from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Text 5)
In the above noted puport it is interesting to note that a person can advance spiritually up imto at least the madhyama stage of devotional service without taking initiation from an ISKCON guru or from the Rtviks or anyone else. The questyion would be then “Can one advance ny further than the middle position by taking initiation from either one of them? Oh well, since I/m below the bottom rung at least I’ll have some time to think about it and I think that everybody else does too.
Ha ha. You’ve exposed Rocan das – or rather, Rocan das has exposed himself. He may as well come out and say it now: Article 2.2.1 should read, “Oath of Allegiance to Rocan das”:
“I state that I have imposed ALL my faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, preeminent Acarya…. AND in my diksa-guru (if so initiated) and/or siksa-guru(s) who have likewise imposed all faith, integrity and honesty in His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.”
Just fill in the blank: “and in my diksa-guru, Rocan das”… “and/or siksa-guru, Rocan das…”
This is what the “ISKCON Srila Prabhupada Position Committee” preaches all over ISKCON nowadays: “Our Foundational Relationship With Srila Prabhupada” and “Srila Prabhupada, as the Founder-Acharya of ISKCON is the preeminent siksa-guru for all members of ISKCON.”
The latest popular catchphrase is “preeminent siksa-guru.” But this is not showing proper respect or honor to Srila Prabhupada. Instead it’s derogatory and demeaning. Why is he only the siksa-guru? They can wrap their offense in fancy terminology and words like “preeminent,” but Prabhupada is far more than just a siksa-guru in his own movement. So what’s the use of such a “constitution” (so-called “As It Is”) when it directly insults and belittles Srila Prabhupada? Who cares about this nonsense and who will follow it? Rocan das is living in la la land or on cloud nine if he thinks anyone is going to follow him. Maybe his wife and a few of his groupies will tag along for a while, but does he honestly think that the GBC or “ISKCON” in general will even care to read it all – let alone actually adopt it? And where is it going to practiced? In his back yard?
Srila Prabhupada said it well:
“Now I have given you everything, but I do not see that even the basic principles of advancement in spiritual life are always there, and sometimes there is tendency to neglect what is our real purpose of life, namely, to become mad after Krishna, and instead we become carried away by BIG BIG TALK. So I am still thinking how things will go on.” (Srila Prabhupada letter, April 10, 1972)
So I think his “constitution” should be renamed, “BIG BIG TALK, As It Is” by preeminent diksa-guru imitator, Rocan das.
The words and instruction of Maha Bhagawat, Acharya and only Diksa Guru of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada are ABSOLUTE. There is no question of “good points or bad points” in relation to Srila Prabhupada’s Ritvik order or “popular opinion”, to hell with popular opinion! Argument concerning the the order of Srila Prabhupada is just fodder for fools and rascals……That’s all! Fools and rascals will spend LIFETIMES arguing over the need to follow The Acharya and will present all manner of excuses not to adhere to the Acharya’s instructions, substituting their own speculative, nonsense to cheat all and sundry.
Rocana is a corpse who is only ‘animated’ by the PAYCHECK he is receiving by GBC rascals to try and discredited Srila Prabhupada’s order that the Ritvik system should remain in place HENCEFORTH!
The words of Srila Prabhupada are the words of the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna and are themselves CONCLUSIVE AND ABSOLUTE. Only Mahabhagawat, Acharya can impart such instruction directly from the heart as only Uttama Adhikari can constantly receive direct instruction from the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Thank-you Balarama Prabhu, LW Prabhu for the interesting input. Just want to add that Madhyama Adhikari is DISQUALIFIED as Diksa Guru. Third Offence in Chanting the Holy name is to DISOBEY the Guru so there is JUST NO WAY he can be a Diksa guru. The word MUST is NOT optional. Diksa Guru MUST be Maha-bhagavata:
CC Madhya 24.330
MAHĀ-BHĀGAVATA-śreṣṭho
brāhmaṇo vai gurur nṛṇām
sarveṣām eva lokānām
asau pūjyo yathā hariḥ
ahā-kula-prasūto ‘pi
sarva-yajñeṣu DĪKṢITAḤ
sahasra-śākhādhyāyī ca
na guruḥ syād avaiṣṇavaḥ
“The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class.”
The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.
Devotees will be interested in this Forwarded Message this was in May 2009. There is BIG difference in Article 2.2.1 , “Oath of Allegiance to Rocan das” and his BOGUS wannbe Diksa guru club who are just toooo eager to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada the BONAFIDE DIKSA GURU with themselves and the following. I have just changed the bold underlined to CAPITALS so as to make it readable format here:
—– Forwarded Message —–
From: “pdhedemark@yahoo.com”
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 12 May 2009, 21:49
Subject: Re: NNV vs. GK Debate, Part 1
Dear prabhus,
As GK prabhu has signed his letter “sincerely” I will take it that this is not a cliche and he “sincerely” wants to understand how any and all confusion WITHIN ISKCON “on any matter” can be settled up.
So I wil offer this one and only comment I wil not entertain any “dialogue” with him or anyone – what to speak of disagreement – on the matter. I consider it clear and simple for the simple. If you cannot accept my explanation – then nothing I could say will satisfy you – as I cannot provide you other than what follows.
Srila Prabhupada assigned absolute value to his personal explanations of all sastric principles. He expected his legitimate disciples to assign the same value to his explantions as he did.
He actually se this “standard” in proverbial stone with the Oath of Allegiance – which he demanded be sent out and sworn to and “maintained” by all HIS men – on June 2nd 1977. (this command was acknowledged and agreed to by Tamal Krsna Goswami and this is all RECORDED in the PUBLIC RECORD.
The Oath of Allegiance establishes Srila Prabhupada’s position – without a shread of ambiguity as the Supreme Authority for the Krsna Consciousness Movement UNDER THE BANNER OF ISKCON.
The Oath of Allegiance asserts the preminent position of Srila Prabhupada’s Bhaktivedanta Purports as THE source of all authority wielded by any “representative” of Srila Prabhupada.
The Oath of Allegiance establishes the “supremacy” of Srila Prabhupada’s DIRECT ORDERS as of “higher and final” authority to all general instructions contained within HIS books.
The Oath of Allegiance separates all “devotees” of Krsna in general – from disciples of Srila Prabhupada and sworn members of his International Society for Krsna Consciousness.
On March 27th 1975 – at the very first meeting of the GBC in Mayapur – Srila Prabhupada spoke of the pre-eminent importance of HIS DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS vs the general instructions in contained within his books:
750327rc.may Conversations 376438/530501
Atreya Rsi: …I am degraded. “Very seriously, or may be given to me
from time to time directly, these directions, by my aforesaid Guru
Maharaja, or through his books, or…” In other words, direction
given, instruction given, directly by him or through his…
Prabhupada: Better directly.
Atreya Rsi: No “His books”?
Prabhupada: No..
Atreya Rsi: Not necessary.
Prabhupada: Because I may give direction according to the time.
Atreya Rsi: “Or” means both.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Atreya Rsi: “Or” can mean… All right. “Or through his
commissioners…”(?)
Prabhupada: Direct, direct instruction is important. Just like Krsna.
In the books He has given many instructions, but then He says,
sarva-dharman parityaja. If one says that “You gave me instruction
before like this. How can I give up this?” so that is not important.
The direct instruction is important.
The Oath of Allegiance reads as follows:
ISKCON OATH OF ALLEGIANCE — Dictated by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada to the GBC on March 27th 1975 and ordered by him to be sent to all Officers throughout his ISKCON.
I …ENTER LEGAL NAME AND THEN INITIATED NAME – date of birth at present residing at, particular nationality (i.e. American, German etc) do hear by solemnly affirm, declare and state as under as follows: I state I have been elected or nominated a member of the Governing Body Commission/or Temple President – UNDER THE RECOMMENDATION OF MY GURU MAHARAJA HIS DIVINE GRACE AC BSP , FOUNDER, ACHARYA AND SUPREME AUTHORITY OF THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT, UNDER THE BANNER OF THE ISKCON. I state I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty IN MY AFORESAID GURU MAHARAJA, with the result HE IS THE SOLE RESPONSIBLE PERSON AND SUPREME AUTHORITY OF MY PRESENT POSITION AND STATUS WHICH I HAVE GAINED AND I AM HOLDING IN THE ORGANIZATION OF ISKCON. I, the said – ENTER LEGAL AND INITIATED NAME – do hear by swear in the name of Krsna that I will bear truth and allegiance to the Constitution, by laws, rules and regulations and directives which have been given, including the 4 regulative principles (listed) chanting of 16 rounds very seriously or DIRECTIONS GIVEN ME DIRECTLY BY MY AFORESAID GURU MAHARAJA, HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA PRABHUPADA, or through his authorized person or persons, and I shall obey faithfully all instructions and directions, WHICH SHALL BE BINDING ON ME AND THAT I WILL UPHOLD THE SOVEREIGNTY AND INTEGRITY OF MY GURU MAHARAJA, HIS DIVINE GRACE AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI SRILA PRABHUPADA and the managing body commission and or any other body appointed by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, working under the said International Society for Krsna Consciousness and I shall faithfully discharge the duty upon which I am about to enter or have already been appointed to that effect. I further pledge that His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF AUTHORITY, represented by his instructions and books and I shall follow his instructions ONLY – OF THESE BOOKS.”
Now in his famous discussion with Professro Stahl – Srila Prabhupada established that all the quoting and counter-quoting of “sastra” would never lead to a conclusive settlement of any dispute – without the objectively accepted final judge or authority to settle such matters.
Here he states this nicely:
Final Note by Srila Prabhupada
In a court of justice two lawyers put forward their respective relevant arguments taken from the authorized law books to decide a point, but it is up to the judge to decide the case in favor of one of the litigants. When the opposing lawyers put forward their arguments, both of them are legal and bona fide, but the judgment is given as to which argument is applicable to the particular case.
Lord Caitanya gives His judgment on the authority of sastras that the chanting of the holy names of the Lord is the only means to elevate one to the transcendental platform, and actually we can see it is effective. Each and every one of our students who has seriously taken to this process may be examined individually, and any impartial judge will find it easy to see that they have advanced in their transcendental realization further than any philosophers, religionists, yogis, karmis, etc.
We have to accept everything favorable to the circumstances. Rejection of other methods in a particular circumstance does not mean that the rejected ones are not bona fide. But for the time being, taking into consideration the age, time, and object, methods are sometimes rejected even though bona fide. We have to test everything by its practical result. By such a test, in this age the constant chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra undoubtedly proves very effective.
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
The above makes it abundantly clear.
HDG Srila Prabhupada – IS the final arbiter TO ALL DISPUTES that might arise on any matter within ISKCON. WITHOUT his final arbitration all sorts of problems will arise; and they most certainly have.
Respectfully
Praghosa
Sudarsana Das Vanacari:Rocana is a corpse who is only ‘animated’ by the PAYCHECK he is receiving by GBC rascals to try and discredited Srila Prabhupada’s order that the Ritvik system should remain in place HENCEFORTH!
Mahesh: The expression goes, “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck”. Rocana was PART AND PARCEL OF BOGUS GBC Old Boys Club. He talks LIKE THEM. HE WANTS SRILA PRABHUPADA REPLACED AS DIKSA GURU. HE IS ANTI RITVIK. He is their VEILED Representative. Their SPOKESMAN.
69-01-25 Letter: Kirtanananda
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS THAT A TREE HAS MANY BRANCHES, AND YOU WILL FIND ONE LEAF HERE AND ANOTHER LEAF THERE. BUT IF YOU TAKE THIS LEAF AND THE OTHER LEAF AND YOU PRESS THEM BOTH, YOU WILL SEE THAT THE TASTE IS THE SAME. THE TASTE IS THE CONCLUSION, AND FROM THE TASTE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT BOTH LEAVES ARE FROM THE SAME TREE.
I’m wondering why ISKCON needs a new constitution anyway because Srila Prabhupada already wrote one in 1966 (published in “The Beginning” by the Bhaktivedanta Archives, pages 154-155):
CONSTITUTION OF ASSOCIATION
1. The name of the society is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
2. The headquarters of the Soceity are located at Radhakrishna Temple, 26 Second Avenue, New York City, 10003, USA.
3. The objectives for which the Society is being established are: (A) To educate the greater human society in the techniques for spiritual life as the basis for a balanced psychic and biological development, and thereby achieve for the first time in human society a real peace and unity among the contending forces in the world today.
(B) To propagate the Sense of Godhead, the all attractive Personality of primal and eternal Form, as He Himself revealed in His own words in the Bhagavad-gita, The Holy Scripture of the Lord Sri Krishna, the Godhead.
(C) To bring together individuals in a Society, regardless of national- ity and irrespective of creed or caste, in order to develop a nearness to the Godhead and thereby the idea that within the members and humanity-at-large there is an infinitesmal soul-spirit that is part and parcel in quality with the Godhead, the Supreme Soul.
(D) To encourage the teachings of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who demonstrated practically the transcendental process of approaching the absolute Personality of Godhead by His acts of congregational chanting of the holy name of God, a process known as Samkirtan.
(E) To prove by active work and preaching that Lord Sri Krishna is the only enjoyer of all the outcomes of individual and collective sacrifice, penance, meditation, arts, culture, sciences, because He is the Supreme Proprietor of the whole universe, eternally apart of Him eveyone knows Him as a friend. Real peace can be attained when this is realized, in fact.
(F) To assist whenever and wherever possible in the buidling of a social structure on the real foundation of spiritual progress and establishment of peace and unity between men throughout the world.
(G) to attempt to save men individually from the chain of victimization the ongoing trend in modern civilization operates by, in the name of ideologies of false sentiment, so that man may again be a free soul, to act and live freely with spiritual vision. This is possible by individual spiritual initiation, Diksha, when a man can see everything in Godhead and Godhead in everything.
(H) To further toward realization this highest truth as revealed by Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the six Goswamins headed by Srila Rupa and Santana Goswamins.
(I) To have for its objective amongst the others four principles which the Goswamins had in view. They are the following: 1. To erect a holy place of transcendental pastimes as well as a place where members of the Lord Sri Krishna can flourish.
2. To propagate all over the world in the form of missionaries the process of devotion, the transcendental service to the Godhead, and to make known that this devotional service is the main function of the human being.
3. In order to accomplish this, to adopt proselytizing methods of peaceful means and to establish a broader society of association for all members, including scholars and admirers, to engage in this service as put forth in the Srimad Bhagwatam.
4. To install, wherever it is possible, the worship and temple of Radhakrishna and that of Sri Chaitanya, and to give facility to everyone to become trained in the modes of Archan or preparatory principles of devotional service.
(J) To introduce to the members of the Society and humanity-at-large a simpler and more natural purpose in life by means suitable to the particular place and time, and as enjoined in the Bhagavad Gita.
(K) To organize educational programs, such as classes and lecture tours, and to institute services, such as mailing, for the benefit of the members of the Society and humanity-at-large.
(L) To publish periodicals, books and/or pamphlets in all important languages in order to reach human society and give an oportunity to same to communicate with the Society.
(M) To invoke the quality of goodness particularly in every member of the Society, individually by the process of Diksha and by establishing one in the status of a Brahmin (good and intelligent man) on the basis of truthfulness, knowledge and faith in the transcendental service of the Lord.
(N) Among the secondary objectives of the Society, it shall undertake the following activities:
1. To revive the scientific system of social orders of classification based on intellligence, martial spirit, productivity and commmon assis- tance, generally known as the four castes with reference to quality and worth for the common cause of world society.
2. To discharge as a matter of coures the vitiated system of supremacy of one man over another by false prestige of birthright or vested interests.
3. To popularize the vegetable-grain diet under apporved methods in order that full value of protein, carbohydrate, fat and vitamin benefit may be derived therefrom.
4. To discourage intoxication or addicting habits of all descriptions and dimensions and to expose such persons thus affliced to approved methods of spiritual realization.
This document is signed by:
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami – Acharya
Raymond Marais
Michael A. Grant
Robet Lefkowitz
James S. Greene
LW :I’m wondering why ISKCON needs a new constitution anyway because Srila Prabhupada already wrote one in 1966 (published in “The Beginning” by the Bhaktivedanta Archives, pages 154-155):
Mahesh: they can NOT accept Srila Prabhupada. They want to create something “new” that fits in with their ANTI RITVIK mentality:
Bg 16.23 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
SYNONYMS
yah–anyone; sastra-vidhim–the regulations of the scriptures; utsrjya–giving up; vartate–remains; kama-karatah–acting whimsically in lust; na–never; sah–he; siddhim–perfection; avapnoti–achieves; na–never; sukham–happiness; na–never; param–the supreme; gatim–perfectional stage.
TRANSLATION
But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.
bandhur atmatmanas tasya
yenatmaivatmana jitah
anatmanas tu satrutve
vartetatmaiva satru-vat
TRANSLATION
For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.
PURPORT
The purpose of practicing eightfold yoga is to control the mind in order to make it a friend in discharging the human mission. Unless the mind is controlled, the practice of yoga (for show) is simply a waste of time. One who cannot control his mind lives always with the greatest enemy, and thus his life and its mission are spoiled. The constitutional position of the living entity is to carry out the order of the superior. As long as one’s mind remains an unconquered enemy, one has to serve the dictations of lust, anger, avarice, illusion, etc. But when the mind is conquered, one voluntarily agrees to abide by the dictation of the Personality of Godhead, who is situated within the heart of everyone as Paramatma. Real yoga practice entails meeting the Paramatma within the heart and then following His dictation. For one who takes to Krishna consciousness directly, perfect surrender to the dictation of the Lord follows automatically.
Bagavad Gita ZAs It Is – Srila Prabhupada
Even the chanting of sixteen rounds for many Westerners is very difficult, what to speak of following an “eightfold yoga system” very strictly. In fact. The truth of the matter is that there are quite a few devotees who do not even know what the eightfold yoga system that Sri Krsna is referring to even actually is and certainly there are just as many who are strangers, if not to the concepts then at least to the practices that they entail. Take the single limb of the path known as Yama which teaches us how to behave and conduct ourselves with ethics and integrity in ones doings and relations with others and then there is ahimsa “non-violence”, both in word and deed and satyam or truthfulness and there are still several more parts to this one single limb and seven other parts to the eightfold path besides. No, most devotees don’t go in for this, they simply do not think that they need to because there is another yoga system besides that promises all of the rewards of the eightfold yoga path and greater ones besides, but where does that leave our greatest enemy, the uncontrolled mind. Busy doing what our own worst enemy is happiest doing, coming up with more ways for us to fail in our lives greatest mission, concocting for us new ways to die. In his introductory verse to the system of Yoga that we follow, not the eightfold system of Patanjali but the system of performing loving devotional service to Krsna, in Srila Prabhupadas tells us that there is no need for us to feel that we need to come up with a new way of soing things
TEXT 14
tam imaṁ te pravakṣyāmi
yam avocaṁ purānaghe
ṛṣīṇāṁ śrotu-kāmānāṁ
yogam sarvāṅga-naipuṇam
TRANSLATION
O most pious mother, I shall now explain unto you the ancient yoga system, which I explained formerly to the great sages. It is serviceable and practical in every way.
PURPORT
The Lord does not manufacture a new system of yoga. Sometimes it is claimed that someone has become an incarnation of God and is expounding a new theological aspect of the Absolute Truth. But here we find that although Kapila Muni is the Lord Himself and is capable of manufacturing a new doctrine for His mother, He nevertheless says, “I shall just explain the ancient system that I once explained to the great sages because they were also anxious to hear about it.” When we have a superexcellent process already present in Vedic scriptures, there is no need to concoct a new system, to mislead the innocent public. At present it has become a fashion to reject the standard system and present something bogus in the name of a newly invented process of yoga.
Teachings of Lord Kapila Chapter 8 TXT 14
It seems to many that it isn’t Rocana but the Rtviks who are trying to mislead people, as Mahesh accuses Rocana of doing instead by his simply encouraging people to follow the system that Sri Krsna put into place and that Srila Prabhupada followed and told us we should follow. It seems to many that it is the Rtviks who are coming up with a new way of initiating people as if the one that Krsna put in place isn’t working anymore or isn’t good enough for us to follow and trying to make it seem that Srila Prabhupada is the one who is concocting.
Look how much time these people are wasting and how many lives are being lost as a result. The whole world is on the edge of disaster and devotees everywhere are being forced to confront these issues again and again, over and over, instead of co-operating together to fulfill Srila Prabhupada’s desire to deliver the world. What a colossal tragedy and waste. Maya is so strong. Prabhupada used to say that the difficulty with his disciples is they’re not afraid of maya. For how long will these folks keep muddying the waters and diverting everyone’s attention away from our main business of preaching Krishna consciousness? It seems they could use a good kick in the pants! Meanwhile, the whole world is going to hell.
Dear George Prabhu!
Your comment: “..the Rtviks who are trying to mislead people, as Mahesh ..”
My note:
I am reading both of your writings. In my humble opinion your understanding is not so clear like Mahesh Raja Prabhu’s understanding. You are seeking yourself and an bona fide guru. But you can not find them. Because you may take a shelter only at Srila Prabhupada’s Lotus Feet.
The Prabhus tried to help you on this Site but you only shoot arrows here.
Rocana dasa in his “Constitution” : Gurus will cheat. Disciples will make bad choices. It is not much different than a marriage. Some gurus will fool everyone as to their qualifications, then they will falldown and cheat. Others will fool everyone, but manage to not fall down publicly, or get caught.
Mahesh: HOW can Gurus cheat? This means they are NOT Gurus. THEY ARE BOGUS!!! CONDITIONED SOUL CHEATS. Maha Bhagavata Is LIBERATED soul he does NOT cheat . Guru is Maha Bhagavata. As I said before same OLD wine in a NEW bottle. This is about dress change BECAUSE they have been EXPOSED Soooooo BAD that NOBODY SANE TRUSTS THEM – AT ALL!. SAME Bogus GBC pulling strings IN THE BACKGROUND with the SAME bogus CONDITIONED SOUL CHEATER “gurus” manufacture machine UNDER DIFFERENT NAME TO FOOL THE PUBLIC. And—– the business is CONNING the INNOCENT: SLAVERY MAKING MONEY SCREWING.
Bg 7.14 P Knowledge of the Absolute
Another meaning of guna is rope; it is to be understood that the conditioned soul is tightly tied by the ropes of illusion. A MAN BOUND BY THE HANDS AND FEET CANNOT FREE HIMSELF–HE MUST BE HELPED BY A PERSON WHO IS UNBOUND. BECAUSE THE BOUND CANNOT HELP THE BOUND, THE RESCUER MUST BE LIBERATED. THEREFORE, ONLY LORD KRSNA, OR HIS BONA FIDE REPRESENTATIVE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, CAN RELEASE THE CONDITIONED SOUL.
SB 4.18.5 P Prthu Maharaja Milks the Earth Planet
A CONDITIONED SOUL IS HAMPERED BY FOUR DEFECTS: HE IS SURE TO COMMIT MISTAKES, HE IS SURE TO BECOME ILLUSIONED,*** HE HAS A TENDENCY TO CHEAT OTHERS***, AND HIS SENSES ARE IMPERFECT. CONSEQUENTLY WE HAVE TO TAKE DIRECTION FROM LIBERATED PERSONS.
NoD 8 Offenses to Be Avoided
The offenses against the chanting of the holy name are as follows: (3) To disobey the orders of the spiritual master.
Madhya 24.330 The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse
MAHA-BHAGAVATA-srestho
brahmano vai gurur nrnam
sarvesam eva lokanam
asau pujyo yatha harih
maha-kula-prasuto ‘pi
sarva-yajnesu DIKSITAH
sahasra-sakhadhyayi ca
na guruh syad avaisnavah
((The guru MUST be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru MUST be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. ….When one has attained the topmost position of MAHA-BHAGAVATA, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru.))
Note The word DIKSITAH refers to Diksa and ONLY Maha Bhagavata is the one mentioned WHO give this BY DEFINITION.
75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa:
The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I AM IN THE INITIATOR GURU, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.
“I AM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THIS INSTITUTION, AND ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY, THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE MY DISCIPLES. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, AND THEY ARE INITIATED BY ME SPIRITUALLY.”(Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12/3/1968)
“Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa. Don’t think of any nonsense. Simply execute what your guru has said. That is success.”
(28th January, 1977, Room Conversation)
If you read Rocana Prabhu’s new Constitution you quickly get the picture that he/they are proposing another win/loose guru system. In this new system a cheater may pose as guru and be worshipped and hosted all over the world ‘as good as God’, building a substantial bank account along the way. If eventually caught out, (which is written into the constitution as a probability) he get’s to walk Scott-free with zero obligation, responsibility or consequence. Having enjoyed many years riding the high life he now get’s to leave, perhaps with a few still loyal disciples to create their own little society, or to retire to a warm climate with enough money in the bank to buy a home and companionship. It’s the perfect guru/disciple pre-nup!
But what of the disciples? Well if you read the new constitution you’ll see they get written off as simply having made ‘bad choices’ and neither guru nor the new movement owes them a thing.
This new deck is once again stacked in favour of the guru who either enjoys worship and world travel within, or rolls in his embezzled wealth without. (“As soon as you get gold you’re no more interested in Krishna consciousness,… this is the infection”. Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk 19th July 1975 SF)
There are far reaching consequences though for the disciple(s) who get cheated out of years of service and much hard earned money. They all walk away from that kind of deal with nothing.
Surya Narayanan das – mantracardsinc@yahoo.co.nz
Surya Prabhu writes: “If you read Rocana Prabhu’s new Constitution you quickly get the picture that he/they are proposing another win/loose guru system…. But what of the disciples? Well if you read the new constitution you’ll see they get written off as simply having made ‘bad choices’ and neither guru nor the new movement owes them a thing.”
I could never understand their logic. If one “guru” falls down, then that automatically makes the whole thing bogus. This is not the transcendnetal system. With Srila Prabhupada there are no doubts, no fears – it’s perfect for everyone. Prabhupada will never fall down or disappoint. It’s obvious they don’t care a fig about the newcomers or their so-called “disciples.” (Only a pure devotee is qualified to have disciples.) So they are commiting the worst kind of violence towards the spirit souls who come looking for Krsna and the bona fide spiritual master. They have not a drop of concern or mercy in their hearts. Therefore how can they dare call themselves representatives of Srila Prabhupada and the disiplic succession? I just can’t believe that they’re still dead set on cheating others for their own personal gain at the expense of everyone — including their “disciples,” godbrothers, Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya’s mission. These guys (rascals) are holding up the salavtion of humankind in its greatest hour of need. How can they be so selfish? It just boggles the mind, doesn’t it Prabhus?
Surya Prabhu writes: “If you read Rocana Prabhu’s new Constitution you quickly get the picture that he/they are proposing another win/loose guru system…. But what of the disciples? Well if you read the new constitution you’ll see they get written off as simply having made ‘bad choices’ and neither guru nor the new movement owes them a thing.”
Hmmm sounds a bit like leaving your car in the parking station. What does the warning sign read “CARE TAKEN BUT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGE”.
Yhs, Bal.
These people have no love or compassion for the newcomers. Somehow or other, they were fortunate to receive Srila Prabhupada’s mercy, but they want to hoard it all for themselves. They don’t want to pass it on and share it with others. They cloak their selfishness in “big big talk,” but really underneath it all, they’re misers (krpanahs) or cripple-minded (duratmas) and not mahatmas, or generous souls with the loving mood of Srila Prabhupada. In the meantime, the whole world goes to hell while they jostle for power and line their pockets with Prabhupada’s money. Srila Prabhupada wanted to save the world, but they just want to save their own sorry asses. And thus we’re all forced to bear witness to the biggest losers in human history making a spectacle of themselves over and over again at the expense and reputation of Lord Krishna’s magnanimous pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, who gave his everything under the most inconceivably difficult and impossible circumstances to bless this world with the divine mercy of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda. Anyway, Srila Prabhupada will always succeed; they can’t stop the inevitable. But too bad they keep trying to delay it.
LW: So they are commiting the worst kind of violence towards the spirit souls who come looking for Krsna and the bona fide spiritual master. They have not a drop of concern or mercy in their hearts. Therefore how can they dare call themselves representatives of Srila Prabhupada and the disiplic succession? I just can’t believe that they’re still dead set on cheating others for their own personal gain at the expense of everyone — including their “disciples,” godbrothers, Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya’s mission. These guys (rascals) are holding up the salavtion of humankind in its greatest hour of need. How can they be so selfish? It just boggles the mind, doesn’t it Prabhus?
Mahesh: Srila Prabhupada calls them DEMONIAC:
Bg 16.4 P The Divine And Demoniac Natures
In this verse, the royal road to hell is described. The DEMONIAC WANT TO MAKE A SHOW OF RELIGION AND ADVANCEMENT IN SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES. THEY ARE ALWAYS ARROGANT or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. THEY DESIRE TO BE WORSHIPED BY OTHERS, AND DEMAND RESPECTABILITY, ALTHOUGH THEY DO NOT COMMAND RESPECT. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. THEY DO EVERYTHING WHIMSICALLY, ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRE, AND THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE ANY AUTHORITY.
Iso 12
The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service–which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead–one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. THE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS HAVE NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR DETACHMENT FROM MATERIAL AFFAIRS, FOR MOST OF THEM WANT TO LIVE IN THE GOLDEN SHACKLES OF MATERIAL BONDAGE UNDER THE SHADOW OF PHILANTHROPIC ACTIVITIES DISGUISED AS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES. BY A FALSE DISPLAY OF RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS, THEY PRESENT A SHOW OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE WHILE INDULGING IN ALL SORTS OF IMMORAL ACTIVITIES. IN THIS WAY THEY PASS AS SPIRITUAL MASTERS AND DEVOTEES OF GOD. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative acaryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. THEY IGNORE THE VEDIC INJUNCTION ACARYOPASANA–“ONE MUST WORSHIP THE ACARYA”–AND KRSNA’S STATEMENT IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (4.2) EVAM PARAMPARA-PRAPTAM, “THIS SUPREME SCIENCE OF GOD IS RECEIVED THROUGH THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION.” INSTEAD, TO MISLEAD THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL THEY THEMSELVES BECOME SO-CALLED ACARYAS, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF THE ACARYAS.
These rogues are the MOST DANGEROUS elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). SRI ISOPANISAD CONFIRMS THAT THESE PSEUDO RELIGIONISTS ARE HEADING TOWARD THE MOST OBNOXIOUS PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE AFTER THE COMPLETION OF THEIR SPIRITUAL MASTER BUSINESS, WHICH THEY CONDUCT SIMPLY FOR SENSE GRATIFICATION.
Mahesh Raja Prabhu, you always deliver the goods. Thank you very much.
Those guys were (and are) so arrogant and puffed up that you couldn’t even cut their arrogance with a knife – you’d need a chainsaw! Even then, it’s practically impossible. Whoever dares to sit on Srila Vyasadeva’s seat without being 100% pure (and humble) is automatically a rascal number one, to say the very least. Srila Prabhupada said it all:
“It is a fact however that the great sinister movement is within our Society.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, September 2, 1970)
And guess when the GBC was formed?
July 28, 1970.
The beginning of the end of the real ISKCON.
The writing was already on the wall.
Real ‘authority’ brings with it a measured amount of ‘responsibility and accountability’ otherwise this is just another green light opportunity to exploit, plunder and pillage with total impunity, cheating all and sundry. Parents, teachers and others who have a degree of authority must also be responsible and accountable or they are prosecuted for neglect and abuse.
Those who want power without responsibility and accountability are criminals and rogues. Who would put their hard-earned money in the bank if the policy of the bank was ‘you may have all your money stolen by us (at our discretion!) and furthermore we bear NO RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY WHATSOEVER!. Who but the ‘greatest fool’ would accept such a notion?
This so called New Constitution by Rocana is just a confirmation of the fallibility and irresponsibility of rascals and fools who want to make their mendacity and skullduggery “official” and without any liability.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Mahesh: HOW can Gurus cheat? This means they are NOT Gurus. THEY ARE BOGUS!!! CONDITIONED SOUL CHEATS. Maha Bhagavata Is LIBERATED soul he does NOT cheat ” May 7th
naham veda vyavasitam
pitror vah kula-nandana
gandharya va maha-baho
musito ‘smi mahatmabhih
“Sanjaya said: My dear descendant of the Kuru dynasty, I have no information of the determination of your two uncles and Gandhari. O King, I have been cheated by those great souls.
PURPORT
That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause. It is said that Lord Krsna also advised Yudhisthira to tell a lie before Dronacarya, and it was also for a great cause. The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion of one who is bona fide, and the highest perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by one’s occupational duty. That is the verdict of Gita and Bhagavatam.* Dhrtarastra and Vidura, followed by Gandhari, did not disclose their determination to Sanjaya, although he was constantly with Dhrtarastra as his personal assistant. Sanjaya never thought that Dhrtarastra could perform any act without consulting him. But Dhrtarastra’s going away from home was so confidential that it could not be disclosed even to Sanjaya. Sanatana Gosvami also cheated the keeper of the prison house while going away to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and similarly Raghunatha dasa Gosvami also cheated his priest and left home for good to satisfy the Lord. To satisfy the Lord, anything is good, for it is in relation with the Absolute Truth. We also had the same opportunity to cheat the family members and leave home to engage in the service of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Such cheating was necessary for a great cause, and there is no loss for any party in such transcendental fraud.”
To validate his ” personal believe system of Anti-Ritvik “, George A. Smith ( and his associates) very cunningly quotes from the Shastras to make the readers believe in what he says and confuses not only to himself further in the darkness of ignorance but others also hiding behind the TRUTH.
Why ?
It is because ” … Iccha – dvesa samutthena .. B.G. 7.27 ” Accepting and Rejecting the Instructions of Inititation of HDG. Srila Prabhupada.
What can be done ?
The answer is also given in the BG. 18.63 ” …. yathecchasi tatha kuru …..”
Now you do whatever you like to do, as the Supreme Personality Shri Krishna advises to Shri Arjuna.
Nobody can interfere in the FREE WILL of the Jiva.
Same way, no body can interfere in the so called enlivened Jivas, gurus of all kinds IF the Jivas choose to accept and/or reject the Instructions of the Spiritual Master according to the PROPORTION of the surrender of the Individual Iccha of the Jiva.
Therefore, George A. Smith continues consistently showing in the comments his Iccha – Personal believe as a Anti-Ritvik.
Nothing can STOP him. Thus, let it be so.
Tatha Ashutu.
Good point George. However, the “cheating” by the great souls is for Krsna(A GREAT CAUSE):
SB 1.13.37 P Dhrtarastra Quits Home
That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause. IT IS SAID THAT LORD KRSNA ALSO ADVISED YUDHISTHIRA TO TELL A LIE BEFORE DRONACARYA, AND IT WAS ALSO FOR A GREAT CAUSE. THE LORD WANTED IT, AND THEREFORE IT WAS A GREAT CAUSE. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion of one who is bona fide, and the highest perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by one’s occupational duty.
Note: CONDITIONED soul cheating is NOT for great cause BUT with envy/enmity/malicious of others:
SB 4.19.12 P King Prthu’ s One Hundred Horse Sacrifices
The word pakhanda used in this verse is sometimes pronounced pasanda. Both of these words indicate an imposter who presents himself as a very religious person but in actuality is sinful. Indra took up the saffron-colored dress as a way of cheating others. THIS SAFFRON DRESS HAS BEEN MISUSED BY MANY IMPOSTERS WHO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS LIBERATED PERSONS OR INCARNATIONS OF GOD. IN THIS WAY PEOPLE ARE CHEATED. AS WE HAVE MENTIONED MANY TIMES, THE CONDITIONED SOUL HAS A TENDENCY TO CHEAT; THEREFORE THIS QUALITY IS ALSO VISIBLE IN A PERSON LIKE KING INDRA. IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT EVEN KING INDRA IS NOT LIBERATED FROM THE CLUTCHES OF MATERIAL CONTAMINATION.
SB 5.14.26 P The Material World as the Great Forest of Enjoyment
THIS IS CALLED SAMSARA-DAVANALA. EVEN IN ORDINARY TRANSACTIONS BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE, THERE IS INVARIABLY CHEATING BECAUSE THE CONDITIONED SOUL IS DEFECTIVE IN FOUR WAYS–HE IS ILLUSIONED, HE COMMITS MISTAKES, HIS KNOWLEDGE IS IMPERFECT, AND HE HAS A PROPENSITY TO CHEAT. UNLESS ONE IS LIBERATED FROM MATERIAL CONDITIONING, THESE FOUR DEFECTS MUST BE THERE. CONSEQUENTLY EVERY MAN HAS A CHEATING PROPENSITY, WHICH IS EMPLOYED IN BUSINESS OR MONEY TRANSACTIONS. ALTHOUGH TWO FRIENDS MAY BE LIVING PEACEFULLY TOGETHER, DUE TO THEIR PROPENSITY TO CHEAT THEY BECOME ENEMIES WHEN THERE IS A TRANSACTION BETWEEN THEM. A philosopher accuses an economist of being a cheater, and an economist may accuse a philosopher of being a cheater when he comes in contact with money. In any case, this is the condition of material life. One may profess a high philosophy, but when one is in need of money, he becomes a cheater. In this material world, so-called scientists, philosophers and economists are nothing but cheaters in one way or another. The scientists are cheaters because they present so many bogus things in the name of science. They propose going to the moon, but actually they end up cheating the entire public of large sums of money for their experiments. They cannot do anything useful. Unless one can find a person transcendental to the four basic defects, one should not accept advice and become a victim of the material condition. The best process is to take the advice and instructions of Sri Krsna or His bona fide representative. In this way one can be happy in this life and the next.
SB 5.14.37 P The Material World as the Great Forest of Enjoyment
AS STATED PREVIOUSLY, EVERY CONDITIONED SOUL HAS THE PROPENSITY TO CHEAT, EVEN IN MARRIAGE. EVERYWHERE IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD, ONE CONDITIONED SOUL IS ENVIOUS OF ANOTHER. FOR THE TIME BEING, PEOPLE MAY REMAIN FRIENDS, BUT EVENTUALLY THEY BECOME ENEMIES AGAIN AND FIGHT OVER MONEY. SOMETIMES THEY MARRY AND THEN SEPARATE BY DIVORCE OR OTHER MEANS. ON THE WHOLE, UNITY IS NEVER PERMANENT. DUE TO THE CHEATING PROPENSITY, BOTH PARTIES ALWAYS REMAIN ENVIOUS.
TLC 19 Further Talks with Prakasananda
The Lord then began to speak on Vedanta philosophy as follows: Vedanta-sutra is spoken by the Supreme Lord Himself. The Supreme Lord, in His incarnation as Vyasadeva, has compiled this great philosophical treatise. Since Vyasadeva is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord, he cannot be likened to an ordinary person, who has the four defects which arise due to contact with material existence. THE DEFECTS OF A CONDITIONED SOUL ARE: (1) HE MUST COMMIT MISTAKES; (2) HE MUST BE ILLUSIONED; (3) HE MUST POSSESS THE TENDENCY TO CHEAT OTHERS; AND (4) ALL HIS SENSES MUST BE IMPERFECT. WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THE INCARNATION OF GOD IS TRANSCENDENTAL TO ALL THESE DEFECTS. THUS WHATEVER HAS BEEN SPOKEN AND WRITTEN BY VYASADEVA IS CONSIDERED TO BE PERFECT
I was just reading Rocana’s:
Constitutional Issues: Checks and Balances
Rocana: Of course, the ultimate system of checks and balances in any Vaisnava society must be the application of Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.
Mahesh: means—– their ultimate system: MEMBERS OF MENTAL SPECULATIONS CLUB will be their Guru, Sastra and Sadhu to MAINTAIN AND INCREASE the SAME PARAMPARA of faggot gurus, Child rapist gurus, Money Screwing gurus, Poison giver gurus, sex-yasis gurus, sin-yasi gurus. And — MORE cover-ups—–AS USUAL to PROTECT their CONMEN .
Just see! how these Anti Ritvik folks want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada for their MONEY SCREWING SLAVERY MAKING BUSINESS: THE DEMONIAC, TAKING SHELTER OF INSATIABLE LUST, PRIDE AND FALSE PRESTIGE, AND BEING THUS ILLUSIONED, ARE ALWAYS SWORN TO UNCLEAN WORK, ATTRACTED BY THE IMPERMANENT.
Bg 16.10 T The Divine And Demoniac Natures
kamam asritya duspuram
dambha-mana-madanvitah
mohad grhitvasad-grahan
pravartante ‘suci-vratah
SYNONYMS
kamam–lust; asritya–taking shelter of; duspuram–insatiable; dambha–pride; mana–false prestige; mada-anvitah–absorbed in conceit; mohat–by illusion; grhitva–taking; asat–nonpermanent; grahan–things; pravartante–flourish; asuci–unclean; vratah–avowed.
TRANSLATION
THE DEMONIAC, TAKING SHELTER OF INSATIABLE LUST, PRIDE AND FALSE PRESTIGE, AND BEING THUS ILLUSIONED, ARE ALWAYS SWORN TO UNCLEAN WORK, ATTRACTED BY THE IMPERMANENT.
PURPORT
THE DEMONIAC MENTALITY IS DESCRIBED HERE. THE DEMONS LUST IS NEVER SATIATED. THEY WILL GO ON INCREASING AND INCREASING THEIR INSATIABLE DESIRES FOR MATERIAL ENJOYMENT. ALTHOUGH THEY ARE ALWAYS FULL OF ANXIETIES ON ACCOUNT OF ACCEPTING NONPERMANENT THINGS, THEY STILL CONTINUE TO ENGAGE IN SUCH ACTIVITIES OUT OF ILLUSION. THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE AND CANNOT TELL THAT THEY ARE HEADING THE WRONG WAY. Accepting nonpermanent things, such demoniac people create their own God, create their own hymns and chant accordingly. The result is that they become more and more attracted to two things–sex enjoyment and accumulation of material wealth. The word asuci-vratah, unclean vow, is very significant in this connection. Such demoniac people are only attracted by wine, women, gambling and meat-eating; those are their asuci, unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they create some principles of religion which are not approved by the Vedic injunctions. Although such demoniac people are most abominable in the world, still, by artificial means the world creates a false honor for them. Although they are gliding toward hell, they consider themselves very much advanced.
Note: Anti Ritvik MISLEADERS destination:
SB 6.7.14 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati.
A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO MISLEAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL, AND THEIR FOLLOWERS GO WITH THEM.
Recently a devotee told a story that I was familiar with from my youth, that took me way, way back to the very beginnings of my own search for enlightenment and self perfection that would eventually lead me to surrender at Srila Prabhupadas lotus feet and to join the Krsna consciousness movemen.
.The name of this story is “A cup of tea,” and it goes thusly:
“Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912) received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.Nan-in saved tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. ‘It is overfull. No more will go in!’
‘Like this cup,’ Nan-in said. ‘You are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”
The
Recently a devotee commenting on the thread of an article I wrote, told a story that I first heard way, way back to the very beginnings of my own search for enlightenment and self perfection, to a beginning of a search that ended in Krsna consciousness but which did not begin with it but rather with the oriental martial arts and the philosophies of Taoism and Zen. The story that the devotee had posted up was a slightly different version of the story that I first read in the collection of stories titled “Zen Flesh, Zen Bones”, and less illustrative of the point of it, which it seemed to me that the poster either sacrificed or didn’t get. Never the less I was thankful for his reminder of it for it took me back to the time that I had last thought about it, a time in my life when my joy was tempered with sadness and frustration to the time first year I joinmd thde Krsna consciousness movement and for the last time found myself standing by the grave side of a friend, Brue Lee, the martial arts legend.
What had filled me with joy at the time was that my search had lead me on to Krsna consciousness and what tempered that joy with sadness and frustration was that Lee, a kindred spirit and fellow traveler on that path had never made reached that destination. So it was that as I stood beside his grave I could not tell him about what I had found and explained things in such a way that he might accept, all I could do was to chant a few rounds for him of Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare and although even then I had a very strong faith in the names of Krsna I did not think very much of my chanting of them. Had Lee still been alive at that point un our lives however I felt that by Krsnas grace and Srila Prabhupadas mercy that I might have successfully been able to share my realizations with him, realizations that had led me to Krsna consciousness from out of the shadows of voidism and impersonalism. Due to our common vernacular and spirit of the warrior class I felt then that I might have done this but as I stood there by his graveside I could not resolve myself to the fact that such an opportunity would never come to pass, alas.
Ours is a preaching mission and we the servants of the greatest salvationists and there is nothing that makes me realize how important it is for us to take that service to heart and appreciate how urgent it is for us to get serious than to find ourselves standing by the grave side of someone we cared about but were never able to bring to Krsna consciousness.
The posting of this story up upon the comment section to my article brought back to me the pain and disappointment of that moment but allowed me to see now beyong it, to the fact that although I was no longer in a position to share with Lee the thoughts and realizations that Sri Krsna and Srila Prabhupada had inspired in me, that didn’t mean that that the same thoughts and realizations that might have helped Lee to come to Krsna consciousness were of no value, that they could not be picked up and dusted off and offered for his sake to all of the little dragons that follow him. I am certain now that this would be what Bruce would hace wanted, that although we each of us may fall in combat that as an army of warriors fighting for the freedom of the human spirit from the clutches of darkness that we will never be defeated.
Thus it is that in memory of Bruce Lee I’d like to share with you something that should you srrve it to your oriental friends pf the Zen and Taoist perrsiasions and persuade them to take a sip of, they may throw away their dinky tea cups in favor of great flagons, for it is not tea or coffee or some Monster or Rock Star drink of over stimulation, but the nectar of Krsna consciousness. Haribol prabhus.
Just to begin with you might present your listeners with this, the same story that was recently posted, just to get them to listen:
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912) received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.Nan-in saved tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring.The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. ‘It is overfull. No more will go in!’
‘Like this cup,’ Nan-in said. ‘You are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
Linguisticgrids mold perception and constrain thought and although the point of the story as the poster on another articles thread (subsequently censored and removed by the enemies of free expression amonf the devotees) intended it was not lost on me, the story is far more than a critique of any single individual and in that we may discover its greatest worth to our preaching mission, not for what it may suggest about one person or another but in what it says about all of us.
The professor in this story sees himself as a very learned man, filled with knowledge and wisdom but in this he may only an exaggeration of every one of us for every societ and almost every human being interprets their own existence in terms of metaphysical models to which feeling components become attached to over time. In the professors case or in the case of anyone who has made a lengghty and determined study of something to the point that they have a much greater mastery of it than hardly anyone else it might even be said that “knowledge”, like goodness its its own reward for with such proficiency feelings become attached to one s position as a very intelligent fellow. As Srila Prabhupada would however remind us; carrying around a great bulk of knowledge that does oneself very little ultimate good however in reality makes one no wiser than an ass.
At the time that I first heard this story which is out of a collection called Zen Flesg Zen Bones it encouraged me to extend my search beyond the printed page and beyond spoken words into the mysterious practices and disciplines of the martial arts masters of the Orient. I took to the study of karate and various forms of weapons practice and as much as I felt the need for any philosophical underpinning I studied Taoism and Zen.
In time I had attained to some degree of martial arts mastery, so much so that one of Bruce Lee’s sparing partners and a great karate man himself, complimented me. Such physical expertise did not however satisfy me, because what it gave me was a rather one sided mastery over death. I could certainly deal it out if need be but I could never ultimately escape from it, not according to the philosophical underpinnings of the oriental martial arts systems that I practiced for so long. One way or other my personal existence would be ultimately snuffed out, either by nirvama or by the death of my mind and body. Such a prospect did not frighten me personally, but what about my friends and family, all the people that I cared about and loved? I therefore found oriental philosophy as I experienced through my studies and practices in Zen and the Tao to be ultimately unsatisfying and so after a while I left the martial arts world and continued my search for more.
By the time that I found myself standing beside Brue Lee it was to late for me to tell him of my ultimate success. As I stood there by his graveside on Capitol Hill in Seattle where I had joined the Hare Krsna movement I felt sad about this for I felt that due to the commonality of some of our experience and great love for martial arts that he might have listened. As I stood there by Lee’s grave chanting Hare Krsna on my beads I thought of the Tea Cup story again and understood just how well Lee had appreciated its point from his cautions against the dangers of mastering only one single style of open hand combat. Yes, the Tao had some usefulness to a pragmatist but that was that.
KI am greatful to the poster of the story for reminding me of not only what a pompous ass I sometimes am but also for reminding me of Lee again and that ours is a ;preaching mission. What I hadn’t thought of then in my sadness at Bruce Lees grave site was tht although it was to late for me to say anything to Lee it was just the beginning for many other young martial artist who would be following his path and associating themselves with Mayavadi teachings and the Tao and none to late for us to give them some help towards attaining victory over death itself.
.
First. Let us see some indication that the suggestion that the source of the philosophy of Zen Bhuddhism is in fact grounded in Taoist philosophy:
“The Tao of Zen is a nonfiction book by Ray Grigg, published by Charles E. Tuttle Company in 1994, and reprinted by Alva Press in 1999.
The work argues that what we recognize as traditional ChineseCh’an/Japanese Zen Buddhism is in fact almost entirely grounded in ChineseTaoist philosophy, though this fact is well shrouded by the persistence ofMahayana Buddhist institutional trappings. Utilizing an array of scholarly commentary on the two traditions and historical deduction from what can be considered to be the best primary source material available, the author traces the development of Taoism and Buddhism in China and Japan for two millennia.”
Wikipedia
That Zen Buddhism is grounded in the Taoist philosophy has pretty well been indicated in the above. Now let us bergin the lilling of the faith in these philophies with one stone and by the throwing of that golden stone from the pages of Srila Prabhupadas’ transcendental literatures see how Taoism contradicts Gaudiya Vedanta by ushering people along in the direction that it takes humanity towards, down a road that promises only death and personal oblivion at the end of it.
Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism writes in his Tao te Ching makes the following condemnation of the persons taking the advice of Srila Prabhupada and the Vedanta in their seeking of more than his philosophy offers them when he condems all seekers of the absolute truth as being insane.
The surest test if a man be sane
Is if he accepts life whole, as it is,
Without needing by measure or touch to understand
The measureless untouchable source
Of its images,
The measureless untouchable source
Of its substances,
The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu Txt 21
In the above noted text Lao Tzu condemns those who would enquire into the nature of the Absolute Truth as being insame. Here however in the following words by Srila Prabhupada we have a contradictory claim being put forward:
athāto brahma jijñāsā
“now is the time to inquire about the absolute truth”
By A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
The Vedanta-sutra (1.1.1) states, athato brahma jijnasa: “Now one should inquire about Brahman – The absolute truth, the transcendental, spiritual nature”
SB. Canto 4, Chapter 25, Text 5, Text26, purport:
The first aphorism in the Vedanta-sutra is athato brahma jijnasa. In the human form of life one should put many questions to himself and to his intelligence. In the various forms of life lower than human life the intelligence does not go beyond the range of life’s primary necessities–namely eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Dogs, cats and tigers are always busy trying to find something to eat or a place to sleep, trying to defend and have sexual intercourse successfully. In the human form of life, however, one should be intelligent enough to ask what he is, why he has come into the world, what his duty is, who is the supreme controller, what is the difference between dull matter and the living entity, etc. There are so many questions, and the person who is actually intelligent should simply inquire about the supreme source of everything: athato brahma jijnasa.
A living entity is always connected with a certain amount of intelligence, but in the human form of life the living entity must inquire about his spiritual identity. This is real human intelligence. It is said that one who is simply conscious of the body is no better than an animal, even though he be in the human form. In Bhagavad-gita (15.15) Sri Krsna says, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca: “I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness.”
In the animal form the living entity is completely forgetful of his relationship with God. This is calledapohanam, or forgetfulness. In the human form of life, however, consciousness is more greatly developed, and consequently the human being has a chance to understand his relationship with God. In the human form one should utilize his intelligence by asking all these questions, just as Puranjana, the living entity, is asking the unknown girl where she has come from, what her business is, why she is present, etc. These are inquiries about atma-tattva–self-realization. The conclusion is that unless a living entity is inquisitive about self-realization he is nothing but an animal.
What differentiates men from animal is the ability of human intelligence to enquire about the Absolute Truth, accept a pritual master and take to devotioopnal service which is the only road that leads to ultimate victory and life ever lasting by Srila Prabhupadas grace and Lord Krsnas mercy.
Actually, this is quite unbelievable. This fellow thinks that anybody cares about his “International Society for Krishna Consciousness As It Is”? Is this a grandiose exercise in self-delusion or what?
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/constitution/checks02.jpg
Who is going to follow it, let alone read it? The entire world is on fire and we need more harinama, book distribution (of original versions), prasadam distribution, functional farm projects with cow protection and our own food production, varnasrama, practical shelter (and love) for devotees and all sincere souls, i.e. Prabhupada’s program. Plus, more than anything, we need self-realized souls to carry on this movement without pride and false ego. Does Rocan really think we need more laws, statutes, theories and position papers? What is wrong with this fellow? So much intelligence, time and effort – all down the drain.
Absolutely right LW Prabhu!
The basic principal of design is ‘FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION’ it is not rocket science. It has already been explained, countless number of times by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (Uttama Adhikari, Present Acharya and Sole Diksha Guru of ISKCON). What is this corporate, speculative, beaurocratic bullshit from Rocana? with his ‘charts and graphs’ like some company executive hotshot…… hogwash! They will always have ‘this plan’ or ‘that plan’ pie charts, “professional, slick presentations” but they always want to deny the position of His Divine Grace and ignore His perfect instruction!
All that this will produce is more ‘wasting time’ while the World goes to hell! This is ‘more of the same bullshit ‘DEFORMITY FOLLOWING DISFUNCTION!’ ……………..Absolute rubbish!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
“They will always have ‘this plan’ or ‘that plan’ pie charts, “professional, slick presentations” but they always want to deny the position of His Divine Grace and ignore His perfect instruction!”
Exactly! And now “The ISKCON Srila Prabhupada Position Committee” is pushing hard to cement Srila Prabhupada’s “preeminent” and “foundational” position as the “siksha-guru” (only), as if they have the power to pigeonhole Krishna’s pure devotee and relegate him to an inferior position somewhere in the distant past. They (begrudgingly) know that they can’t eliminate Prabhupada altogether, so they’re slyly minimizing him while pretending to glorify him just to make themselves look magnanimous and devoted. They want Prabhupada to be like the Queen of England on the (Commonwealth) dollar bills – a ceremonial figurehead with no real power. Little do they know that Prabhupada has all the power of God at his disposal because a pure devotee controls even Krishna. So all their committees, declarations, proclamations, resolutions and constitutions will soon dry up and be scattered like particles of dust in the wind.
LW: Does Rocan really think we need more laws, statutes, theories and position papers? What is wrong with this fellow? So much intelligence, time and effort — all down the drain.
Mahesh: ALL these ANTI RITVIK folks are after is how to SCREW MONEY and EXPLOIT THE INNOCENT FOR FREE SLAVES. History repeats itself:
741004SB.MAY Lectures
JUST LIKE ONE OF OUR GODBROTHERS, HE’S THINKING THAT “THIS INSTITUTION WAS STARTED BY ME AND BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI AS PARTNERS. NOW THE SENIOR PARTNER IS DEAD. THEREFORE I AM THE SOLE PROPRIETOR. WHO ARE THESE GODBROTHERS? LET THEM GO AWAY.” So this is maya, the same maya Dhrtarastra was thinking. And his brother-in-law, Sakuni, was very expert in conspiracy. So he was advising him, “Yes, you are the proprietor. At least your sons should be…” This is natural. Every… Everyone has got some affection for the family. So this is the beginning of the conspiracy. Otherwise, he was taking care of the children very nicely. But maya was dictating that “You are taking care of the children of your brother. What about your own children?” “Yes, why not my children?”
So attempt was being made how to kill these boys. The first attempt was to administer poison.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: I just heard that at Bhaktivedanta Manor they have hooked-up some well educated Hindus boys for rubber-stamp “Brahmacari” life BUT the PURPOSE is to find RICH HINDU folks and USE these educated Hindus for SCREWING MONEY from them.
eg. I was told that Radhanatha’s crew went with all the drums, kartalas to to put up a SHOW at Laksmi Mittals place in London. Laksmi Mittal is a HINDU BILLIONAIRE. So the innocent educated Hindu boys influence the SUPER RICH HINDUS to screw money for them. Just see how CUNNING these ANTI RITVIK guys are:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
Sudarsana Das Vanacari: What is this corporate, speculative, beaurocratic bullshit from Rocana? with his ‘charts and graphs’ like some company executive hotshot…… hogwash! They will always have ‘this plan’ or ‘that plan’ pie charts, “professional, slick presentations” but they always want to deny the position of His Divine Grace and ignore His perfect instruction!
Mahesh: Anti Ritviks live in a FOOLS PARADISE. They just want to play with drawings and talk nonsense. The croaking of frogs. There is no genuine feeling FOR Srila Prabhupada. They want to REMAIN AS DEMONS:
750130BG.HAW Lectures
That freedom is there. If you want to remain as a demon, then Krsna will supply you all the ingredients, how you can flourish as a demon.
770124LE.BHU Lectures
Prabhupada: God is doing everything. I have already explained. If you want to remain a demon, God will keep you in demonic condition. That’s it. He is doing everything. That’s a fact. And if you want to be devotee, then God can make you devotee also. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajami.
KB 1 Advent of Lord Krsna
Vasudeva tried to pacify Kamsa by good instruction as well as by philosophical discrimination, but Kamsa was not to be pacified because his association was demoniac. Because of his demoniac associations, he was always a demon, although born in a very high royal family. A DEMON NEVER CARES FOR ANY GOOD INSTRUCTION. HE IS JUST LIKE A DETERMINED THIEF; ONE CAN GIVE HIM MORAL INSTRUCTION, BUT IT WILL NOT BE EFFECTIVE. SIMILARLY, THOSE WHO ARE DEMONIAC OR ATHEISTIC BY NATURE CAN HARDLY ASSIMILATE ANY GOOD INSTRUCTION, HOWEVER AUTHORIZED IT MAY BE. That is the difference between demigod and demon. Those who can accept good instruction and try to live their lives in that way are called demigods, and those who are unable to take such good instruction are called demons. Failing in his attempt to pacify Kamsa, Vasudeva wondered how he would protect his wife Devaki. When there is imminent danger, an intelligent person should try to avoid the dangerous position as far as possible. But if, in spite of endeavoring by all intelligence, one fails to avoid the dangerous position, there is no fault on his part. One should try his best to execute his duties, but if the attempt fails, he is not at fault.
BERGSON.HAY Henri Bergson Philosophy
Hari-sauri:
tan aham dvisatah kruran
samsaresu naradhaman
ksipamy ajasram asubhan
asurisv eva yonisu
“Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life.”
Prabhupada: They will be punished to forget God, forget. He wants to forget, so apohanam ca, mattah… The brain is there, but Krsna wants that this rascal should be punished to forget God. Then he will be punished more by the material nature, daivi hy esa gunamayi. Maya’s business is to punish the demon, so maya keeps him in demonic life so that he may be punished more and more. And Krsna gives intelligence to a devotee, tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam. One who is engaged in devotional service, trying sincerely, from within He is giving instruction, “Do like this. Do like this.”
730715BG.LON Lectures
SO THE ATHEIST CLASS, DEMON CLASS, THEY WANT TO FORGET KRSNA. SO KRSNA GIVES HIM SUCH INTELLIGENCE THAT HE CAN SPEAK OF ATHEISM SO MANY VOLUMES. But he is getting that intelligence from Krsna. Krsna gives everyone the chance that “Whatever you want to do, you can do. I will give you intelligence. So if you want to become atheist, then I will give you intelligence how to become first-class atheist, like Hiranyakasipu, Ravana, Kamsa. And if you want to become devotee, then I will give you intelligence also in that way.” Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam. Anyone who is engaged in His service with love and affection, tesam, not all, not all… Because not all, not everyone wants to serve Him. Everyone wants to become God, imitator. Imitation. Therefore they say, “Why Krsna shall be alone God? I am God.” You are God. That’s all right. But you are not the Supreme God. Why you forget that? Above you… You may be a God at home of your wife, but when you go to your office, you are not god; your master is god. He directs you to do something; you have to do it.
“ALL these ANTI RITVIK folks are after is how to SCREW MONEY and EXPLOIT THE INNOCENT FOR FREE SLAVES. History repeats itself.”
So true. Just see the “sly fox” mentality behind this fancy presentation. At the top of the chart, we see the “incorporators” (permanent) at the very top – above the “International Society for Krishna Consciousness As It Is.” Then just below that we have the “Founding Members” (also permanent). So while the GBC, the Brahminical Council, etc. serve various terms and are voted in, the top of the food chain remains there permanently.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/constitution/checks02.jpg
So I wonder just who is going to be permanently situated (coronated) at the head of this institution? Funny, I’m having a bit of difficulty seeing Prabhupada’s name listed on this chart. (I wonder why?) Can anyone else see it?
In conclusion, I think this presentation should be renamed the “International Society for Krishna Consciousness At It Isn’t.” I’d vote for that!
To clarify my above comment: Prabhupada’s name is mentioned on the chart (in an off-handed way), but why isn’t “His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness” written clearly at the top of the chart as it should be on all genuine ISKCON documents?