Hip-Hop Break Dance – Devotional Dance or Public Entertainment?
Are there any fast rules and regulations for kirtan?
Watch B-boying in the temple: ISKON monks hip-hop to Hare Rama, Hare Krishna
https://www.facebook.com/totheculture/videos/971590666268020/
http://indianexpress.com/article/trending/viral-videos-trending/watch-b-boying-in-the-temple-iskon-monks-hip-hop-to-hare-rama-hare-krishna/
THE INDIAN EXPRESS writes:
They say music and dance know no borders. Rhythms and notes transcend all restrictions and are actually the easiest ways to connect to God. This sentiment rings true in this video that is simultaneously delightful and meaningful.
International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) has always drawn people from all strata of life, society and the world, who join the movement by renouncing the world the world’s pleasures to pursue a path of knowledge and spirituality. Part of the process is the chanting of Hare Rama, Hare Krishna at the end of bhajan gatherings in large groups — reaching a collective crescendo where people dance in abandonment.
Now, all this is fairly normal at an ISKCON gathering, but what makes the video of this one instance unusual is ISKCON monks taking to the floor and B-Boying to the chants of Hare Rama, Hare Krishna. The video starts with monks chanting the bhajan, when suddenly a young monk takes to the floor in the centre and starts B-boying, a dance form that is said to have originated among African American and Puerto Rican youth. Soon, others follow.
Hare Krsna.
Many young men want to accept a better society than Western World. Therefore they accept ISIS Kalifat and Sharia. The ISKCON is not able to speak to these young people to spread Srila Prabhupada’s teaching but they deprave it in a such shameful way.
“Are there any fast rules and regulations for kirtan?”
http://padaproblems.blogspot.in/2014/04/srila-prabhupada-kirtan-standards.html
When Srila Prabhupada condemned the traveling road show, he didn’t want the temple devotees and sannyasis to get involved in such things. But for those who will never join a temple or become fulltime members, we have to find a way for them to gradually purify themselves too.
A pure devotee is an expert judge of time, place and circumstance. It takes great expertise and the ability to engage everyone in Krishna’s service “to the best of their individual capacity,” as Srila Prabhupada advised.
He also said that we must “fan the spark” of Krishna consciousness in everyone’s heart, and not drive them away or discourage them. A Vaisnava is broadminded, warm-hearted, kind, merciful, forgiving and all-inclusive.
“I am so glad that Mr. Harrison is composing songs like ‘Lord which we so long ignored’. He is very thoughtful. When we actually meet, I shall be able to give him thoughts about separation from Krishna, and they will be able to compose very attractive songs for public receptions. The public is in need of such songs, and if they are administered through nice agents like the Beatles, it will surely be a great success.”
(Srila Prabhupada letter, January 11, 1969)
“Try to make this Hare Krishna Movement popular through any source that is possible. That is our business.”
(Srila Prabhupada letter, June 29, 1969)
Hare Krishna. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
“One who chants the holy name of the Lord is immediately freed from the reactions of unlimited sins, even if he chants indirectly [to indicate something else], jokingly, for musical entertainment, or even neglectfully. This is accepted by all the learned scholars of the scriptures.”
(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 6.2.14)
Respected Learned Readers,
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Only FREE from Personal Motive of any kind, JOKINGLY, for musical entertainment or even neglectfully who so ever chant the Holy Name of the Lord is FREED from the reactions of unlimited SINS as per SB. 6.2.14. Make no mistake about it.
However, those who have any type of material motive simply to satisfy their own whims in performing such activities ( HIP HOP – Break Dance as a Devotional Service etc. ) do not qualify to be FREE from such reactions.
Thus, such activities are never considered as Devotional Service because it neither satisfy the Spiritual Master nor to the Lord because Spiritual Master does not instruct for such activities to be performed for an individual satisfaction.
Hence HIP HOP or Break Dance etc. are understood simply a material activity not a Devotional activity at all because such activities satisfy merely to the performer and its audience who so ever takes part in it.
Krishna Consciousness is a spiritual culture and we dance and chant for the pleasure of the Lord. If we are dancing to show off our contemporary western influenced styles, then the simple question is whether or not that is pleasing to the Lord. Hip hop and break dancing is all about competing with one another and showing off. It has nothing to do with dancing for the pleasure of the Lord. Its one thing to adjust our teaching style in a public forum to attract people from all walks of life, AKA Krishna West. But this hip hop as far as I can see was going on inside the temple room, which in my opinion is inappropriate.
Granted, this type of dancing is not for serious devotees and we don’t even want to see it ourselves. But if that’s all they do in Krishna consciousness in this lifetime, it’s better than nothing.
“Something is better than nothing.”
There are a few stories of devotees who used to mock the chanting of Hare Krishna before they got serious, but eventually they came to their senses and actually joined the movement. So you never know. Krishna’s in control.
As long as we don’t have to see it, if that’s what makes them happy, why should we disturb our minds about it and spend our valuable time worrying about it and picking apart everybody else’s lives? They can do what they want, just as we’re doing what we want. It’s a free country (at least for now). They could be up to far more worse, after all. And maybe one of them will want to inquire further into Krishna consciousness sometime later after the passion and vanity of youth subsides. I hope so.
Hare Krishna.
P.S. But if they’re doing it in the temple or they’re initiated then it’s a big no-no.
Oh, I just checked again and it IS in the temple. Yikes! This is bogus, agreed.
The temple authorities are allowing this in Krishna’s temples? Gee, things are a lot worse than I realized.
I thought they were just a group of young people somewhere. (Poor eyesight.)
My misunderstanding, sorry.
This should be condemned and banned immediately.
Dear LW,
there are many topics on this forum which have disturbed your mind and you have commented on.
The point is, that like all the topics devotees have opinions on, we are trying to form a clear consensus on how Srila Prabhupada taught and trained his disciples. If you want to have a gay marriage then go ahead and do it, if your country allows it. But not within ISKCON boundaries. If you want to do Hip hop etc then do it, but not in the sanctified atmosphere of the temple room. Its that simple.
You say that they can” do what they want” Thats not true, in Srila Prabhupadas society their are rules and etiquette. Its up to the temple president and senior devotees to train these souls properly. Otherwise like in any family where the parents dont train the children well, the result will be a culture where anything goes. Something like the current western so called civilisation we live in now.
Haribol Sundarananda Prabhu,
Thanks for your comment. You wrote: “there are many topics on this forum which have disturbed your mind and you have commented on.”
Actually Prabhu, my mind is not disturbed. I consider myself to be one of the happiest men in the world. Srila Prabhupada states that we should study the philosophy “from different lights of direction.” So I’m just churning the waters of discussion so that we can see things from different angles of vision in Krishna consciousness (for those who are interested).
I admitted my mistake by not understanding that this was going on in ISKCON. I tried to press the play button on that image of the break dancers, but it’s just a photo and not functional. I failed to click on the links below as I work fulltime (and overtime), and so I’m always kind of rushed. I promise to be more careful from now on.
I was writing from the perspective that the dancers were not initiated devotees or temple devotees. I thought they were street people and just friends, or what they used to call “fringies.” Anyway, you’re right and I’m wrong. Sorry about that.
Hope you are well.
Dear LW,
Haribol prabhuji. Thanks for your reply. Its a pleasure to have your association. How nice it is when we are able to communicate in a friendly, positive and constructive way. I appreciate your happy and sincere mood prabhu. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
your friend and servant
Sundar
Hare Krishna Sundarananda Prabhu,
Nice to hear from you. Thank you for your kind words.
Sorry again about that blunder. I took a quick glance at the photo, but never in a million years could I ever imagine that such dancing was actually happening in an ISKCON temple! I just didn’t think it would ever be allowed. So I guess ISKCON has really morphed into something radically different from what it once was and what its founder-acarya, Srila Prabhupada, had envisioned. What next? (Whoops, I better not say that too loud!)
Anyway, sorry again for being so inattentive and blabbing incoherently, as usual. Thanks for your sweet message.
Hope all is well.
Note: Perfection is something we ALL have to work on:
Madhya 22.54 T The Process of Devotional Service
‘sadhu-sanga’, ‘sadhu-sanga’—-sarva-sastre kaya
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya
SYNONYMS
sadhu-sanga sadhu-sanga–association with pure devotees; sarva-sastre–all the revealed scriptures; kaya–say; lava-matra–even for a moment; sadhu-sange–by association with a devotee; sarva-siddhi–all success; haya–there is.
TRANSLATION
“The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment’s association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success.
760311mw.may Conversations
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Acaryopasanam. That is in the Bhagavad-gita. Acaryopasanam. It is not self-aggrandizement. The acaryopasana goes to Krsna directly. Therefore it is needed. Not that it is a pompous thing. Acaryopasana. Krsna says. That is the way of knowledge. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau.
Pancadravida: HOW DOES THAT WORK, THAT IF SOMEBODY HAS THE ASSOCIATION OF A PURE DEVOTEE FOR ONLY A LAVA, ONE-ELEVENTH OF A SECOND, THAT HE ATTAINS ALL PERFECTION?
Prabhupada: IF HE IS SO SINCERE…. JUST LIKE DRIED WOOD IMMEDIATELY IGNITES. AND IF IT IS MOIST, IT DOES NOT. IT IS THE QUALITY OF THE WOOD. ONE TAKES THREE HUNDRED YEARS; ONE IN THREE MINUTES. THAT’S IT. (BREAK) ONE IS DRY FROM THE MATERIAL MOIST OF CONTAMINATION, HE BECOMES IMMEDIATELY IGNITED IN SPIRITUAL…
Tamala Krsna: What is that drying process?
Prabhupada: Drying process is for many, many years one has tried to become Krsna conscious, for many, many lives, bahunam janmanam ante. When he actually becomes man of knowledge he surrenders unto God. Otherwise he is lost. His drying process may take three minute or three millions years.
Guru-krpa: But that knowledge that Krsna is everything comes by Krsna’s mercy, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Krsna’s mercy is already there, but if you are not able to take it…
Pancadravida: Then you don’t even have to hear from a self-realized soul. Simply by seeing him you can become completely purified.
Prabhupada: Yes. Both required. The matches must be also all right, and the wood must be also. Then there is fire. If one of them is defective, then, it will not…. But when you go to the fire, you become dry. But willfully we put again water. This nonsense business makes us late. This process is already there, how to become dry. But instead of taking the process, we put water. Then how it will be ignited? THE RULES AND REGULATIONS IS THE DRYING PROCESS. BUT WITHOUT FOLLOWING THE RULES AND REGULATION, IF YOU AGAIN BECOME A VICTIMIZED BY MAYA, THEN THERE IS WATER AND AGAIN DRY IT. SO THIS IS GOING ON, WATERING AND DRYING, WATERING AND DRYING. NO STAIGHTFORWARD PROCESS FOR DRYING. THAT WILL HELP. BUT DIFFICULTY IS THAT WE DRY AND AGAIN WATER.
This video clip has generated over 4,000,000 hits (if I read it correctly) and most of the feedback is positive.
The question which is asked is “Devotional Dance or Public Entertainment”? This particular clip is clearly not ‘Public Entertainment’ as all persons are participating in chanting the Maha Mantra and dancing also in what looks like the temple room. Whether the diety curtains are open or closed cannot be seen. I think that some freedom of expression is necessary in dance to increase the intensity of association of devotees and also comradeship and friendship of all the participants.
Every kirtan is different and may vary in their intensity, also increasing friendly exchanges between devotees is also pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and the Supreme Lord and is a service in itself. We cannot be over-critical of younger people but understand that they have a lot of energy to burn or they will become dis-enchanted and leave. When you see newcomers join in the kirtana (maybe the last guy in the clip) it is especially enlivening to the devotees and really heightens the mood of the gathering.
There are many things that I am critical of regarding FISKCON but this isn’t one of them. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath-water!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Where is the DEVOTION in that Hip Hop Dance ?
Does that Hip Hop dance satisfy the Performer or NOT ?
Is that the Performer a Devotee or NOT ?
Can some body please identify such DEVOTIONAL act in that service performing such Hip Hop Dance by the Devotees or the Newcomer, the last guy in the video clip ?
So these questions need to be answered and understood first before one may conclude whether or not some one is over or under critical at all.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Sudarsana prabhu,
some fair points you have made. This hip hop is not such a crime or big deal. I agree with that. Life will go on.
I don’t agree however that this is devotional dance. If these devotees were rolling on the ground in genuine ecstasy, brought on by spiritual sentiment then that would be entirely different and would be nectar to see. I can imagime some of Lord Chaitanyas kirtanas with his confidential associates.
I think it is very clear that this is entertainment and therefore has had so many “hits”
The western conditioned soul finds ways to “dovetail” their propensities to enjoy Krishna’s energy. Another name for this is apostasy. When a person leaving their host culture for another culture, still carries some residual attraction and habits to their host culture.
Krishna West is a good example of that. Hridayananda believes his contemporary version of KC is attractive and appealing to western people. There is no doubt he is right and that many people are enthused by his preaching . The question is whether or not his preaching is in accord with Srila Prabhupadas society and standards. It seems many think not.
Some devotees like to decorate a tulasi tree at christmas time or listen to devotional song lyrics paired together with westen rock and roll music. All these things are not major crimes or really that much of a big deal but reflects the conditioned stage of the evolution of those respective souls. As the soul progresses, their devotional sentiments become more refined and their attraction and attachment to their previous conditioned behaviour disappears. In fact they will feel disgust with the vibration that the lesser materially influenced culture brings.
In my opinion, I dont think its a big deal that some or many devotees find this style of dance attractive. Good for them if they are happy and progressing in their KC. Those who are further down the track will have no interest in this style and will associate it with the degraded western culture that it comes from.
I think the temple should be a sacred place where devotional culture is practised, whether the curtains are drawn or not and in my opinion hip hop has no place in this spiritual culture.
When I visit a temple, be it in the west or especially in India, I would be very disturbed to see the “monks” dancing like this.
If I want to paricipate in hip hop I would go to the street or to a club where it belongs.
I go to a temple to escape this madness and to learn and embrace the rich spiritual culture of KC.
Srila Prabhupada established standards for Kirtana and for dancing respectfully and as its his society we are participating in then we should embrace that.
I dont think its throwing the baby out with the bathwater to expect that Srila Prabhupadas temple room and kirtan standards are maintained nicely just as he established.
If the young enthusiastic western conditioned souls want to do hip hop or play guitars and drum kits and electronic rock and roll, then like with many other habits and fun things from the past, do it outside of the temple.
That in my opinion is a win win solution for everybody.
Your friend and servant
Sundar
Dear Sundarananda Prabhu.
I am in agreement with many of the points that you make. This is obviously a FISKCON Temple, so most of the participants are bogus “disciples” of bogus “Gurus”, so that in itself would suggest that they are not functioning on any advanced level of understanding regarding Srila Prabhupada’s vani. One gets the feeling however that hopefully some of them will eventually come reject their conditioning and take shelter of Srila Prabhupada. It is only a handful that are ‘doing the break-dancing’ and they seem to be using traditional instruments so by chanting the Maha Mantra (the great mantra for deliverance) they may become sufficiently purified to reject the bogus and deviant false compliance of FISKCON!
Always happy to hear your views……
Your humble servant
Sudarsana
Make no mistake, many so called necessary or unnecessary changes aimed at improving different aspects in presentation of the Krsna Consciousness may appear harmless because of the subtle condition of one’s subconsciousness covering potency of the Maya slowly but surely blinding the persons who cultivate such KC will no longer be recognized as clearly damaging as a result of such continuous conditioning of their respective mind.
Thus, no change to a bona fide process of KC presentation as instructed by our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada be considered valid because it falls in the category of the Mayavadi presentation.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Haribol. One time in Vrindavan after guru-puja, a big temple president was leading the kirtan and playing the mrdanga with all kinds of fancy beats. Srila Prabhupada was having difficulty playing karatals to the beat and it was obviously disturbing his meditation. Finally Prabhupada raised his hand, stopped the kirtan and asked someone else to lead. The big temple president went red-faced with embarrassment.
One devotee who joined in San Francisco in 1967 related how every evening Srila Prabhupada would lead the kirtan in the temple room for an hour with devotees and hippies chanting together. Prabhupada stuck to one slow and repetitive tune throughout the entire kirtan, yet everyone was in complete ecstasy.
Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
Sudarsana:Every kirtan is different and may vary in their intensity, also increasing friendly exchanges between devotees is also pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and the Supreme Lord and is a service in itself. We cannot be over-critical of younger people but understand that they have a lot of energy to burn or they will become dis-enchanted and leave. When you see newcomers join in the kirtana (maybe the last guy in the clip) it is especially enlivening to the devotees and really heightens the mood of the gathering.
Mahesh: the situation is when Srila Prabhupada started in 1966-67 he invited all the hippies and they brought all their musical instruments – so Srila Prabhupada was very tolerant on that. BUT as the movement gathered pace Srila Prabhupada showed more rules and ettiquete the standards he set IN TEMPLES. He was very strict that these standards were followed and MAINTAINED. Otherwise it become DEGENERATED. If one does it then others ALSO follow this has to be controlled because this IS TEMPLE not a private place. You have to control the situation that it does NOT degrade. There may be many hits on internet Video but it is the QUALITY that matters. Brahminical STANDARDS are in TEMPLE enviornment that the public have to learn from:
75-08-26. Letter: Sri Raj Kapoor
As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita; yad yad acarati sresthas, tad tad evetaro janah, sa yat paramanam kurute, lokas tad anuvartate. “WHATEVER ACTION IS PERFORMED BY A GREAT MAN, COMMON MEN FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS. AND WHATEVER STANDARDS HE SETS BY EXEMPLARY ACTS, ALL THE WORLD PURSUES.” (BG. 3:21).
So it is not “over-critical ” but there are STANDARDS in the Temple that HAVE TO be maintained. Srila Prabhupada often STOPPED devotees in the MIDDLE of the Kirtana if there was something wrong this is affirmed in his MP3’s.
Important consideration in ANY situation is WHAT would Srila Prabhupada do? What would he say?
Is the behavior PROPER for the Temple?
“With regard to your question about Bengali style kirtana and mrdanga playing, one or two styles is best. To introduce more styles is not good. It will become an encumbrance. Who is that Krsna das Babaji who is teaching? If we introduce so much emphasis on style of kirtana, then simply imitation will go on. Devotional emotion is the main thing. If we give stress to instrument and style then attention will be diverted to the style. That will be spiritual loss.” (Letter to Satsvarupa Goswami, — New Vrndavana 30 June, 1976)
Hare Krsna
Srila Prabhupada’s all the disdiples should participate in a devotion kirtana. Where are the matajis? Should they dance Hip-Hop dance style?
A real kirtana presents the unity.
What is happening is that there are STANDARDS to be OBSERVED in the TEMPLE Kirtana – BUT there are devotees who are NOT aware of these STANDARDS. Take for example, this:
Morning Walk
—
April 8, 1975, Mayapur
Jayadvaita: …names of Krsna as the spiritual master or the acaryas have chanted them, but sometimes I’ll hear that our devotees will be chanting Krsna’s name in different ways that I haven’t heard, in kirtana.
Prabhupada: I do not follow what you say.
Jayadvaita: Just like sometimes we’ll hear our men. They’ll be chanting… Like yesterday I heard that someone was chanting, “Nitai-Gaura, Nitai-Gaura, Nitai-Nitai-Gaura.” Like that, I’ll hear different mantras. Someone is chanting: “Radhe, Radhe, Radhe, Radhe,” like that, at kirtana.
Prabhupada: WELL, THAT IS NOT DONE BY THE ACARYAS. BUT THERE IS NO HARM CHANTING “RADHE.” BUT SOMETIMES IT IS DEGRADED TO MAKE SOMETHING NEW, INVENTION. THEREFORE BETTER TO STICK TO “HARE KRSNA” AND TO “SRI-KRSNA CAITANYA PRABHUPADA-NITYANANDA.” OTHERWISE… JUST LIKE THE SAHAJIYAS, THEY HAVE INVENTED: “NITAI-GAURA RADHE SYAMA, HARE KRSNA HARE RAMA.” THESE THINGS WILL COME GRADUALLY. BUT THEY ARE NOT APPROVED. THEY ARE CALLED CHARA KIRTANA (?), MEANS “CONCOCTED KIRTANA.” BUT THERE IS NO HARM CHANTING “RADHE, NITAI-GAURA.” SO BETTER STICK TO THIS PANCA-TATTVA, AND MAHA-MANTRA. JUST LIKE “NITAI GAURA RADHE SYAMA, HARE KRSNA HARE RAMA.” THERE IS “NITAI-GAURA, RADHE SYAMA,” BUT IT IS NOT APPROVED. MAHAJANO YENA GATAH SA PANTHAH. WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE MAHAJANA. IN CAITANYA-CARITAMRTA YOU’LL FIND “SRI-KRSNA-CAITANYA PRABHU-NITYANANDA, SRI-ADVAITA GADADHARA…,” NEVER “NITAI GAURA, RADHE SYAMA.” SO WHY SHOULD WE DO THAT?
Jayapataka: The concocter of the “Nitai Gaura Radhe Syama,” previously he was a follower of Bhaktisiddhanta, but then he was rejected, and then he started his own camp.
Prabhupada: No, yes, he was meeting Bhaktivinoda Thakura. So… What is called? Carana dasa Babaji.
Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, sometimes during arati, many bona fide bhajanas are sung, but not much Hare Krsna. Is that not a good tendency, that maybe just two or three minutes of Hare Krsna mantra and many other bhajanas?
Prabhupada: No. We should stick to Hare Krsna. Sri-Krsna-Caitanya Prabhu-Nityananda, jiva jago jiva jago…, these are authorized. But Hare Krsna is the maha-mantra. What is sung by mahajana, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Narottama dasa Thakura, that can be sung
Hare Krsna. I just saw the video (finally). Sorry, but they can’t do this in the temple room. Srila Prabhupada would never allow it. They can do this somewhere else, but not in Krsna’s temple room. There has to be some standard, otherwise it will deteriorate even more. Next thing you know they’ll be introducing strip dancing: “It’s for Krsna, Prabhu.” Bogus, plain and simple.
I’m surprised nobody wrote five paragraphs deriding devotees in dhotis wearing blue and red in the temple. Get up AND dance!
Hari Bol!
Our real identity is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa as we learn from HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s VANI. So even if we are in this material body, if we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, that is liberation.
As our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada says ; ” Hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. When we give up our otherwise life… “Otherwise life” means to be engaged in māyā’s service—as the head of the family, head of the community, head or member of this and… We have designated in so many ways. So that is our conditional life. And the same service, when we render to Kṛṣṇa cent percent, we are liberated.
Sva-rūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ. That is mukti. When our senses are completely engaged in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa-Hṛṣīkeśa , another name of Shri Kṛṣṇa—that is called bhakti. Bhakti means the activities of liberated life. One may understand or not understand; if he is actually engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service, under the direction of spiritual master, he is liberated. But if we voluntarily accept again māyā’s service, then we become conditioned. ”
This is the secret revealed in the scripture.