Cost of Silence (Ex-gurukula’s Video)
The Cost of Silence – Children of the Hare Krishnas
BY: KRISHNA DASA
Over the years, the Hare Krsna Movement has had an unacceptably high degree of tolerance towards child abuse. As a consequence, generations of children have suffered, and are still affected.
Abuse robs children of their childhood, and the trauma can last a lifetime. But as devastating as it may be for the child, it is important to remember that society also pays a heavy price for this.
The Cost of Silence attempts to shed some light on the bigger picture, and explores the historical factors that have contributed, and enabled the existing child protection problem in ISKCON. By doing so, it also seeks to offer and find solutions for this issue. The video documentary is also available here on YouTube, in four parts.
Child protection is everyone’s business. Every devotee is responsible for taking a stand against the mind-set and lack of principles that have had an adverse effect on ISKCON’s children. Silence is a choice with very real consequences.
“If it takes a village to raise a child…it also takes a village to abuse a child”.
– Spotlight, 2015
Please also see:
Vrindavana Gurukula Children Abused
ISKCON Children Expose Child Abusers Part1
ISKCON Children Expose Child Abusers Part2
ISKCON Child Abuse Part3
ISKCON Child Abuse Part4
http://www.krishnachildren.com
Comment by Mahavidya Das: (ACBSP)
I have just watched the very well made documentary, The Cost of Silence on the recently created website, http://www.krishnachildren.com.
I would heartily recommend that anyone connected to ISKCON, in any way shape or form, watch it. The narrator Sanaka Rsi prabhu is himself a victim. The producers have skillfully joined up many of the dots to give one an overall view of what many of us have been trying to express for many years.
My heartfelt thanks go out to all those who have contributed in any way shape or form to produce a professional documentary that is worthy of any major network TV channel. One can only surmise that Lord Nrsmhadeva has empowered them. I take off my hat and salute them all. Sanaka prabhu is a very courageous man who, as the narrator, has very publicly taken on a very sordid aspect of ISKCON and as yet, still lives to tell the tale.
The present ISKCON leadership is put to shame. And shame on all of us who just looked the other way… gutless.
Sadly what has been presented is only the very dirty tip of a very, very dirty iceberg. I have learned that there is much more material on file, so much that it would take many similar documentaries to do the subject matter justice. We can only pray, that more people will find the strength to follow Sanaka prabhu’s example and come forward and speak up. Even though it may be understandably difficult… the world needs to hear your voice. Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON was never meant to be like this. Never.
If it is any solace to anyone, I have heard that the documentary is to be subtitled into different languages… Russian, Hungarian, Chinese, Bengali, Spanish, German, Italian… etc etc. So if anyone can help in some small way, please use the contact details on the website. If you feel moved after watching… at least sign the petition or share this with your loved ones. For the sake of this and future generations.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krishna.
Why print the ”comments” of PADA? These are all the ”comments” are by Puranjana who doesn’t print anyone’s ”comments” but his own on the PADA website. He himself would rather ”silence” anyone who criticizes Madhu Pandit’s nepotistic “Family Business”, real estate empire, genocidal vaccination program, partnership with Monsanto and engagement of mundane philanthropy coupled with slaughterhouse “educational” brainwashing. There is more than one way to delude yourself. Persons who masquerade as followers of Srila Prabhupada shouldn’t be soley engaged in their own monologue but be open to questioning , reason and scrutiny or such delusions only increase.
Thousands of people are dying in Brazil due to chemical poisoning by Monsanto and their “associates” (pyroproxyfen, atrazine, and nicotinoids) and blaming all these deaths on the Zika virus. They are poisoning people with toxic vaccinations also. Their plan is the complete opposite of Varnashrama Dharma. This is why they are behind ‘Codex Alimentarius’, ‘Agenda 21’ and ”Order 81 (iraq)” These Multinational Corporations and Politicians (Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Carter, Nixon etc etc) are All working for the interests of Luciferian secret societies such as Bohemian Grove, Skull and Bones, Freemasons, Bilderberg Group etc. and demonic Multinational Corporations, WHO, World Bank and EU Fascists.
These people are mass murderers, liars and scum. Eugenicists like Rockerfeller and Gates who want to murder 3 Billions of the Worlds population! Puranjana’s criticism of GBC is understandable by why is he playing the ”cheerleader” for Madhu Pandit’s delusional association with these demons?
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Well said Sudarsana prabhu! You took the words right out of my mouth. Puranjana is the lap dog of Bangalore and it’s group of temples, both in India AND America. If you call them out on anything then here comes Puranajana concocting al sorts of crap, throwing it all over and hoping some of it will stick. I used to have a lot of faith in Bangalore and its management team but that isn’t the case anymore, as far as I’m concerned they have also become corrupt and I don’t want to have anything to do with them or their supporters/followers.
Y.h.s, O.f.s.
For the record. EVERYTHING Tim Lee (Puranjana/PADA/krishna1008) repeatedly writes about myself and HKC Jaipur (and now Sudarshan prabhu) are nothing but malicious LIES in an attempt to demonise us simply because of our pointing out ISKCON Bangalore’s many deviations from Srila Prabhupada and their partnerships with asuric corporations such as Monsanto and KFC. Notice how he never presents ANY actual evidence of his endless allegations. That is because there is NONE.
Anyway, I do not want to waste time responding to his garbage, but i will now briefly respond to his latest article (link below).
1: I have never made any death threats to him (or anyone else for that matter).
2: Dayalu Nitai has never referred to me as a senior devotee of HKC. What he actually said was: “Some senior devotees like Prahlad Prabhu from England and Mathura Pati Prabhu from Germany visit almost every year here with other devotees.”
3: HKC have never used Akshaya Patra’s name illegally to collect donations. They only once included a short quote from Madhu Pandit in a newspaper ad for a festival they held, wherein MP said: (in regards to their farm-community) “Carry on as u are doing. You are doing well. It is a unique project”. HKC also included quotes in the ad from Gauridas Pandit and two local university heads. Does this mean they are illegally using these persons names to collect donations also?
4: HKC and myself have never promoted or defended Bhakta Das, Hari Sauri or any other anti-ritvik ISKCON followers.
5: Myself and HKC have responded to his allegations in the past but gave up because he never publishes any comments on his blog (except his own) and only continues to lie even more.
http://krishna1008.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/hkc-jaipur-totally-baffled-by-karmi.html
This is not a “I like PADA or not” thread, comments should kindly stay on the specific topic “Cost of Silence (Ex-gurukula’s Video) – ISKCON Child Abuse”.
The Cost of Silence — Children of the Hare Krishnas
Comment: by Madhudvisa
The Cost of Silence — Children of the Hare Krishnas is a new film produced by Sanaka Rsi Prabhu who was raised in ISKCON gurukuls in Italy and India.
Sanaka has dedicated the film to the generations of Hare Krishna children whose suffering has been ignored and silenced. The Cost of Silence was released on the auspicious day of Sri Nrsimha Caturdasi, May 20 2016.
“For you child-worship is more important than Deity worship. If you can not spend time with him then stop the duties of pujari.
“These children are given to us by Krishna, they are Vaisnavas and we must be very careful to protect them.
“Try as far as possible to discipline them with love and affection.” (Srila Prabhupada in 1972 letters to Aniruddha)
Nowadays many believe that child abuse is a dark chapter in the distant past of the Hare Krishna movement and that now there is an effective child protection system in place. Although some progress has been made over the years the current policies are still inadequate.
This is a film that every devotee needs to see.
To watch the film please go to:
http://krishna.org/the-cost-of-silence-children-of-the-hare-krishnas/
“The protection of children gives the human form of life its best chance to prepare the way of liberty from material bondage.” (SB 1.8.5 Purport)
“Please also take care of the children. They are our future hopes.” (Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Hayagriva 1969)
Chant Hare Krishna and be happy!
Madhudvisa dasa
These FISKCON deviant perverts and reprobates shouldn’t be referred to as “maharaja” or ”prabhu” they are demons and should be avoided. Just to see their faces makes one feel nauseous and ill.
They are incapable of policing themselves as it is a conspiracy of lies, deceit and exploitation due to enviousness of His Divine Grace. These toxic, gutless, cretins will never admit any fault as they are always in denial and always protect each other. They are not devotees just misfits, perverts and psychopaths.
To attempt to reason with them is a waste of time and will only create further anguish as they have no compassion or human qualities. They are already dead and awaiting punishment from Yamaraja. Better to ignore them completely.
Sudarsana
Yes Sudarsana prabhu, a tragic & sad state of affairs. However the most amazing thing is that after all this, the ‘victims’ and their ‘well-wishers’ think that they can appeal to these demoniac monsters for correction and change.
You would have more chance of complaining to the mafia that there’s crims in their organization!
Yhs, Bal.
Balaram Prabhu, Hare Krsna! You are correct. That petition does not make ANY sense – AT ALL!
THAT is just being NAIVE.
HOW are they going petition to the SAME bunch that terrorized them in the FIRST PLACE? Are they going to say, “My dear beloved merciless gang of cruel CHILD beaters, rapist brutes in Vaisnava dress we appeal to your good sense to submit your arrogant demoniac beings to the Government Authorities so to put yourself in Jail?”
Does it make any sense?
It is just NOT going to work.
SB 4.7.14 P The Sacrifice Performed by Daksa
It is commonly said that to give protection to animals, a stick is needed because animals cannot reason and argue. THEIR REASONING AND ARGUMENT IS ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM; UNLESS THERE IS A ROD, THEY DO NOT OBEY. FORCE IS REQUIRED FOR THE ANIMALISTIC CLASS OF MEN, WHEREAS THOSE WHO ARE ADVANCED ARE CONVINCED BY REASONS, ARGUMENTS AND SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY. Persons who are simply attached to Vedic rituals, without further advancement of devotional service, or Krsna consciousness, are almost like animals, and Lord Siva is in charge of giving them protection and sometimes punishing them, as he punished Daksa.
KB 68 The Marriage of Samba
Although Lord Balarama patiently heard their insulting words and simply observed their uncivil behavior, from His appearance it was clear that He was burning with anger and was thinking of retaliating with great vengeance. His bodily features became so agitated that it was difficult for anyone to look at Him. He laughed very loudly and said: “It is true that if a man becomes too puffed up because of his family, opulence, beauty and material advancement, he no longer wants a peaceful life but becomes belligerent toward all others. It is useless to give such a person good instruction for gentle behavior and peaceful life, but on the contrary, one should search out the ways and means to punish him.” Generally, due to material opulence a man becomes exactly like an animal. TO GIVE AN ANIMAL PEACEFUL INSTRUCTIONS IS USELESS, AND THE ONLY MEANS IS ARGUMENTUM BACULUM. IN OTHER WORDS, THE ONLY MEANS TO KEEP ANIMALS IN ORDER IS A STICK.
Hare Krishna Prabhu’s, I agree with all three comments above and yet still I feel there is value in signing this petition and also writing a comment. Maybe we also bowed down to these guys once, but through education and hearing from others we woke up! There are a lot of people visiting this petition page and as they say, little drops of water wear away the stone. You all write well so I would encourage you to write something in the comments section, and even if just one person reads it and their outlook changes and their eyes open just a little wider then what’s the loss? A revolution is won through changing and inspiring the hearts and minds of the masses, and this requires ongoing education and agitation of the staus quo. It’s not really about the GBC, as we know they will never reform themselves becuase they see us as all beneath them, but the people hold the power to bring about that reform,… they just need to wake up and realize it. Our words might shake someone from their slumber and that person might go on and wake another. Both words and actions are a valuable service in my opinion, especially when it comes to standing up for the vulnerable like our children. And if and when the time for action and even violence comes, well I’m sure there will be those amongst us who will happily step up and embrace that service too. Yours in service, Surya Narayana das – NZ
I agree with the points that you are making Prabhu, also with Mahavidya Prabhu’s comment that Sanaka Rsi Prabhu is most courageous in this endeavor to expose these vile creatures, and for that he should be commended. I seek not to criticize Sanaka Rsi Prabhu only to offer my own perspective. When I hear the narrative ”…so I complained to all the relevant authorities….” this rings a bell because this is what I went through concerning possibly the worst pedophile, rapist pervert in FISKCON, former Adelaide TP Kripa Kara. I do not want to go into any details here as this is too painful a subject.
My complaint of a coverup by Ramai and Prabhavisnu was sent to the then GBC ”Chairman” the BAD SEED of Alister Crowley, Roger Terrence Crowley AKA Suhotra (may he rot in hell for eternity!), who was later found dead sitting on the latrine in Mayapur.
The result of ‘my complaint’ was that they “elected” Ramai GBC Chairman the same year! That was the result! Ramai…. ”Chairman of the GBC!”….. Ramai ”moved around” Kripa Kara (Kreepy-Krawley) into other positions of power, even Gurukula Committees etc and he continued raping girls (one as young as 9 yrs old) and was later jailed!
This is the reason I say without criticism that you will not get any redemption from these scum and the “followers” of these turds will be even worse! I can however sympathize completely with this brave young man Sanaka Rsi Prabhu and hope that the sincere devotees will open their eyes, even though such persons would be a minority and most are too stupid to even care!
These arse-holes are NOT AUTHORITIES! and neither are they RELEVANT! The only way you will get any justice is to hire Private Investigators to get these reprobates, and take it from there! as most of them are engaged in ILLEGAL activities of some sort!
The world is unfortunately run by such persons and it is growing worse by the day but they will get their day of reckoning by the arrangement of The Supreme Lord as Yamaraja has a ‘cage’ just waiting for them.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Surya Narayana das Prabhu, the way forward is not by petitions “sweet words” to the bunch of crooks. Sanaka Rsi Prabhu has done something wonderful in the sense that he and others exposed the child rapists and molesters in a BIG way so the WHOLE world can see WHO they are. The very fact that they went to Bhaktivedanta Manor to openly CONFRONT the goon shows that there ARE devotees who ARE going to stand-up to these THUGS.
731230mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers… They were great politicians. They saw, “Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be.” Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that “For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army.” Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that “India is lost,” voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back… Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) SO IN POLITICS THIS IS NONSENSE, NON-VIOLENCE. IT IS NONSENSE, COWARDISM. IN POLITICS IN SWEET WORDS YOU CANNOT GET. THERE MUST BE FIGHT, ARMS. THAT IS ARMY. “IF YOU DON’T AGREE, THEN FIST.” THAT IS POLITICS. THERE MUST BE VIOLENCE. OTHERWISE YOU CANNOT CONTROL. WHEN THERE IS EDUCATED GOOD MEN, THEN YOU CAN ARGUE. BUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE RUFFIANS, THERE IS NO QUESTION OF GOOD… ARGUMENTUM VACULUM, I told you the other day… (break) …in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devasura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?
Nara-narayana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. SO WITHOUT REVOLUTION, (INDISTINCT), YOU CANNOT CHANGE OLD ORDER. “Old orders changes giving place to new.” That old order changes… EVERYWHERE IT IS BY VIOLENCE. THE MAHABHARATA ALSO, THE BATTLE OF KURUKSETRA. KRSNA WAS THERE. HE TRIED TO SETTLE UP. BUT IT WAS NOT SETTLED WITHOUT VIOLENCE. Paritranaya… What is that? Vinasaya ca duskrtam. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. Krsna also comes, vinasaya ca duskrtam, to, for killing the demons. Krsna also comes.
Nice points and quotes by Srila Prabhupada, Mahesh Raja Prabhu!
Devotees often say things such as “Oh! That’s just politics!”
We should remember that Srila Prabhupada often explained the ‘political dynamic’ of World politics and the modus operandi of government and their policies. Other examples are how the British introduced and promoted tea drinking in India and how they controlled the supply of grains and fiat currencies etc. Srila Prabhupada also wanted to create an ISKCON political party in the early 70’s, so it is not true that Srila Prabhupada was “not into politics” which has been falsely stated by some devotees. (PADA)
Internal “politics” within FISKCON is a separate issue and this is a result of enviousness and defiance of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and the rejection of his sole position (by his own order) as Diksa Guru (of the whole of ISKCON) and spiritual master of ALL DISCIPLES of ISKCON. We are ALL THE SERVANTS OF THE VAISNAVAS this is the only way Srila Prabhupada and The Supreme Lord will accept our service and any idea that we should be anything other than servant of the vaisnavas is Adharma or asuric consciousness.
The Bhagavad Gita (and Mahabharata) clearly illustrates the demonic nature of those who transgress Dharma and their uncouth behavior, greed, envy and abuse of power, devotees, women etc. Draupadi is representing a reality and metaphor for all the children who have been abused by FISKCON predators and the ‘distain, hatred and indifference’ in which the Kuru Dynasty view their victims is reflected clearly in the attitude of the FISKCON GBC towards them.
As was mentioned in previous comments by several devotees (and not as a critique of Sanaka Rsi Prabhu’s courageous endeavors) these belligerent asuras do not respond to appeals or reason by honest , sincere vaisnavas. This important point is ALSO reflected in the fact that when the Pandavas appealed to the Kurus for a small tract of land to govern, as was their Varna as Kshatriyas (with the intent of avoiding carnage, aggression and war) the Kurus angry reply was just to say “We will not even give you enough land that you can drive a pin into!”
That being said, I do hope that in spite of the ”continual (and ever increasing), criminal incompetence, indifference and mendacious attitude the FISKCON GBC”, others will awaken from their slumber and see these scum for what they are!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
I just watched “Cost of Silence”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvlRAyM3p4Q
As I said EVEN before—- the so-called Child Protection Office is a FRONT for keeping the agitated public PACIFIED for the nefarious acts. This is all about MONEY, POWER PLAY,RAPE/EXPLOITATION OF THE INNOCENT:
These Anti Ritvik goons do NOT want Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru hence, they will DEFY whatever standards he has set eg no salary:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2459.htm
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41633
Hare Krsna, Sudarsana Prabhu and One fallen soul.
We should not offend Puranjana Prabhu, Banglore or others. They probably are not perfect. Krsna can see everyone’s heart. But we can decide if they do good things.
Srila Prabhupada says many times: “That is common sense.”
People and so-called devotees should use the common-sense. Sudarsana Prabhu, when you and some devotees write comments then you teach to use the common sense. In the world this is very important because many people want use only the heart while they use actually the emotions. The demons know this. – The ‘victims’ and their ‘well-wishers’ are in the SAME bunch ( comments:Balaram p. and Mahesh p. )
The devotees should not belong to different camps because mistake and sin can be anywhere. One should belong to Srila Prabhupada. Just like ” this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the bhakti cult, offers the topmost conclusion” Madhya 25.20. Devotees of ISKCON have to accept only Srila Prabhupada. Everyone can help this.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Dear Marica Prabhu.
I am not setting out to offend Madhu Pandit’s real estate empire, partnership with Monsanto, genocidal ”vaccination program”, mundane philanthropic activity, slaughterhouse ”education”, brainwashing program or sky-scraper “Reich’s Chancellery facsimile”, Vrindavan temple (all of which has no authorization by Srila Prabhupada, in any shape of form). Nor am I setting out to offend Puranjana in what is clearly some mindless cheer-leading of pro-Madhu Pandit policies and programs (without any reference as to what is Srila Prabhupada’s instruction regarding his demonic corporate and political associations). Nor do I wish to stand idly by while Puranjana constantly makes what seems to me to be groundless, manic and psychotic tirades against HKC Jaipur like a madman with baseless accusations.
These guys are afraid of the truth, that is why they only engage in monologue. That is why they do not want to explain their actions to other vaisnavas. That is why they AVOID this site because they would be defeated due to their delusional ideas and demonic association. Just like all the FISKCON websites ”NO COMMENT ACCEPTED” same, same, same. They are only interested in creating some superfluous image in front of their ”groupie followers”
Madhu Pandit is a flunky puppet of Monsanto, and Agenda 21 criminals like Clintons, Gates, and the demonic, Luciferian, Godless murderers they represent like Rockerfeller and Rothschild. I don’t care if these shills are offended. I am exposing them and defeating them, so others are not cheated or misinformed that is what matters!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Hari Bol,
please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Puranjana, have you been in Jaipur, have you seen any problems personally?
Unlike you, I have been there and the whole fight started, because the Akshaya Patra Temple want’s all the money for themselves.
The Akshaya Patra Temple authorities there are so impolite they even refused an invitation to a Prabhupadanuga festival, how to cooperate amongst Prabhupadanugas on the spot. So how can you be so hard hearted, to not even consider meeting to talk about how to solve a disagreement.
I told the Akshaya Patra Jaipur Representative: ISKCON Gurus are cooperating, why not cooperate amongst Prabhupadanugas? It is a win win situation if Prabhupadanugas cooperate.
Akshaya Patra don’t give a thing about foreign Prabhupadanugas, who have no association in the west.
HKC Jaipur on the other hand, has started a farm community, Goshala and also gives western Prabhupadanugas a chance to serve in Srila Prabhupadas mission.
So I really urge people not to listen to the hate speech of Puranjana Dasa, who is making a great mistake by makeing FALSE ACCUSATIONS against HKC Jaipur.
What are you doing Puranjana Dasa, to make new devotees?(you just indiscriminately accuse everybody of child abuse)
The devotees of HKC Jaipur are doing a lot more than you, to make new devotees and give devotees shelter.
Ys
Bhakta Robin
Hare Krsna, dear Sudarsana Prabhu.
Of course you must not stand idly.
However if a devotee’s ( FISKCON ) eyes open out , he will probably be in shock. Since he served a worthless person as guru .After realization If he does not hide his head in the sand, he will search the right path. Then I think he can experience a newer shock.
Yes , the truth be said. However it would be good that he/they does/do not escape to “the caves of Himalaya”.
I hope you understand me. I do not know these things because I had not bogus guru so I only think such a situation.
Hare Krsna
ys marica
Dear Marica Prabhu.
Based on Srila Prabhupada’s Vani, all sincere vaisnavas, without desiring false prestige should debate numerous topics for the benifit of all the vaisnava community to ultimately arrive at the truth of any given situation. If it has been proven that in the course of the debate someones actions have been false, misleading or misinformed then it is necessary for the vaisnava/s to acknowledge that such a mistake has been made by him/her for the benefit of the truth. PRO-FISKCON websites (Dandavats, FISKCON News, Chakra etc) either do not publish ‘comments’ or they just publish the comments of those ”who agree with them” and the same can be said for Rocan, PADA, and ISKCON TIMES.
What are they afraid of? Srila Prabhupada was always ready for a debate (with anyone) and he was NEVER defeated! So what are they hiding? Why are they just engaging in monologue! Are they afraid that they will be DEFEATED and their ‘starry-eyed’ groupie “followers” will no longer trust them, give them money or continue ”worshiping them”. Are these guys really so pathetic and cowardly?
ISKCON TIMES has a section (top of the Homepage) called DEBATE. There are around THREE DOZEN articles in that section and not even one! NOT ONE! comment!!!! What sort of “debate” is that!
What is it that they don’t want the vaisnava community to know? What do they have to conceal?
Yet they constantly come up with the monologue of how transparent they are! Does this make any sense at all? Why do they hold the vaisnava community in such contempt? Why do they despise the vaisnava community?
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
ISKCON child abuse in the India gurukulas, old Dallas, New Vrindaban, and a few other US schools, during the 1970s and 1980s, was the most sadistic and harsh of any I found in my ten years of research leading to my book Child of the Cult.
A couple of other groups were physically abusive, especially polygamous Mormon groups; and 3HO and TM had some of that in the Indian gurukulas.
Other groups were sexually abusive, especially the notorious Children of God.
But ISKCON was the worst.
That’s the thing apologist ISKCON people are having trouble accepting.
Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Nori
Nori: But ISKCON was the worst.
That’s the thing apologist ISKCON people are having trouble accepting.
Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Mahesh: there is a reason WHY these apologist ISKCON are having “troubling” accepting.
I hear from some London devotees, many of apologists OWN children they do not send to the ISKCON gurukulas. These are an EVIL GANG of CROOKS who could not care what happens to others AS LONG AS – HUGH salaries keep on coming in their pockets. THAT IS THE ISSUE. So called Child Protection Office means to put on a PRETEXT a SHOW for the public. CREATE – A DIVERSION that they are doing something when there is agitation from the public. It is about pacifying the public. The apologists only want MONEY and—- for THAT they will do anything – hide the child rapists, cover-ups etc. MANY devotees KNOW who these Child Rapists, Child abusers are so WHAT have the CPO done? NOTHING! They are totally USELESS!
TRACE the MONEY and you have your CRIMINALS:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2459.htm
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41633
Hare Krsna, dear Sudarsana Prabhu.
I agree with you. The debate is necessary.
But everyone be able to pay attention to the new followers. The dog-cat debates are also usefull because they can be ignored . You are right that you name the websites who ban the vaisnavas’ communication. A dissapointed (in FISKCON) new follower certainly will search the sincerity. I think we should concentrate on them because the new seekers will probably discover the FISKCON at first.The preach on internet is an incredible big opportunitty and responsibility.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Just been reading this from Anuttama Dasa:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/news/06-16/news6056.htm
“We appreciate that such issues were raised and are of concern to the film’s creator Sanaka prabhu. At the same time, we must point out that the film is not a balanced presentation on these issues due to many errors, exaggerations, and other shortcomings.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What has happened is these bogus GBC folks have been FORCED to RESPONSE because the PUBLIC is now becoming CONVINCED that there IS a VERY serious ISSUE here. Hence, to cushion the blow they use PLACATING words like, “We appreciate that such issues were raised “.
Now contrast that with their REAL DEFENSIVE MOTIVES in PROTECTING their OWN bunch of criminals : “At the same time, we must point out that the film is not a balanced presentation on these issues due to many errors, exaggerations, and other shortcomings.”
They are on the MONEY game. These folks will ONLY protect their OWN POCKETS. This is just a cleverly worded WORD JUGGLERY to DENY the protection to the children and bring the child RAPISTS, child molestors/abusers criminals to the FULL force of Justice.
I say it AGAIN : TRACE the MONEY and you have your CRIMINALS:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2459.htm
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41633
By the way, Prabhus, did this Anuttama dasa ever bring out what was not balanced presentation on these issues due to many errors, exaggerations and other shortcomings as he pointed it out ?
If he has brought out, then, what are these shortcomings, exaggerations and errors ?
If not, then, this Anuttama dasa simply saying for the sake of saying to divert Readers’ attention away from the FACTS which speaks volume.
Is it not TRUE ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna Amar Puri prabhu,
Yes it is TRUE. He’s just a ‘spin doctor’ blowing hot air out of you know where as usual!
The Christian churches have been rightfully maligned for their child abuse, but considering how small FISKCON is in comparison, it makes the churches look like ‘do-gooders!
Yhs, Bal.
Dear Prabhus,
I just happened to be reading here at this link http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/news/06-16/news6056.htm a reply by Anuttama dasa and found a great deal of a CONTRADICTION in his reply of which simply appears an eye wash ;
Jun 08, 2016 — SINGAPORE (SUN) — By Anuttama Dasa, ISKCON Minister of Communications for ISKCON News on June 6, 2016
Released by the ISKCON Communications Office Approved by the GBC Executive Committee June 4, 2016.
In his writing section CPO Procedures and Authority Anuttama Dasa says Items No 4 ;
4. The GBC has no authority over any decision of the CPO, nor can decisions be appealed to the GBC. Full authority is given to the CPO office and the independent review panels.
To my surprise, I still read in the beginning of his letter that the letter was approved by the GBC Executive Committee.
My question is ; If GBC has no authority, then, where is the need and necessity of getting his letter approved by the GBC committee ?
What kind of a LIE it is ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar Puri prabhu,
Unfortunately they trade in ALL lies to suit their PAD agenda! It’s still very hard and sad to realize that the movement Srila Prabhupada started worldwide to bring the fallen conditioned souls back to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna has come to this. I don’t think we should waste our precious time and energy hoping that anything will change with the ‘establishment’.
There are now 150 on the ‘sannyas’ waiting list… what a joke! The renounced order of life has come to be called the denounced order of life. Here are some of Srila Prabhupada’s statements in 1977…
Sannyasa ashram outlawed in ISKCON after 1977
“If you talk in the modern society they will laugh: “What nonsense this man is… ‘By sex life one becomes conditioned.’ “ They cannot understand. Hare Krsna…This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a… No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that “We shall not fall down again,” that is also not believable. What is the use?”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
“And this kind of hypocrisy–they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. […]
Get one wife and live like a gentleman. Similarly woman. Live with one husband fastidiously, with children. What is the wrong there? We have so many grhastha devotees. […]
But what is this nonsense that you take sannyasa and make relation with…? This should be completely stopped.”
(Srila Prabhupada Conversation, 7/1/77)
“And we discussed the sannyasa recommendations. […]
And for next year no recommendations were made.”
(Room Conversation GBC Members, 2nd and 3rd March, 1977)
Sannyasis forbidden from business activities
“Business must be done by the grhasthas, not by the sannyasis or brahmacaris.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 22/1/76)
“The brahmacaris and sannyasis must stick to the temple activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 4/9/75)
Useless activities for sannyasis
“This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it’s so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing—simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing”.
(Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, 11/11/75)
“We are not interested in these things like hatha-yoga and swimming. We do not encourage such useless activities.”
(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 6/1/75)
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Balaram das Prabhu says: ” I don’t think we should waste our precious time and energy hoping that anything will change with the ‘establishment. ”
Certainly Prabhu, your comments are much appreciated and well taken.
Make no mistake, we are not here to change the crookedness already implemented in the present Iskcon world wide by the deviant personal motivated leadership of all kinds.
Our main interest remain simply to up keep Srila Prabhupada’s VANI and share the Original VANI of Srila Prabhupada with every one SELFLESSLY world wide.
Srila Prabhupada’s Devotees and followers like your good self are indeed an instrumental in executing such task of up keeping with your adequate knowledge via your selfless participation whenever and where ever it is necessary.
Once again, thank you very much, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
Balaram das Prabhu:There are now 150 on the ‘sannyas’ waiting list… what a joke! The renounced order of life has come to be called the denounced order of life.
Mahesh: They are in the queue BECAUSE of ——POWER, CONTROL,MONEY, GREED,DISCIPLES(free slaves). These folks have taken sannyasa asrama as a MEANS to get on the next stage ie. STEP LADDER to be rubber-stamped “Diksa Guru”. The cunning Jackals want to be worshipped AS GOOD AS GOD.
SB 4.19.23 P
At the present moment, however, many so-called sannyasis or mendicants have no understanding of God consciousness. Such sannyasa was introduced by Indra because of his jealousy of Maharaja Prthu, and what he introduced is again appearing in the age of Kali. PRACTICALLY NONE OF THE SANNYASIS IN THIS AGE ARE BONA FIDE.
Mahavidya Prabhu writes a letter in the Sampradaya Sun entitled “Dear Mr Cameron” (Referring to “The Cost of Silence” vid)….. Hear we go again!
Why waste your time writing to demons like Cameron?
He writes “The selfsame present Hare Krishna leadership are promoting your visit to their temple, to their congregation as if you endorse their activities”
Of course HE ENDORSES THEIR ACTIVITIES! …………….They have poisoned the Acharya, infiltrated the organisation and positioned their own Illuminati goons in positions of power, changed all of Srila Prabhupada’s books, kicked out all the genuine devotees and ‘completely neutralized’ and ‘corrupted’ the philosophy, abuse/d children and continue to plunder and pillage money and assets.
The ‘establishment’ itself is run by demonic power-brokers and thieves and pedophiles who are members of secret masonic orders and demon worshipers. This is a global connection that is why they are using FISKCON to spearhead the New World Order in India through bogus “Food” Relief programs such as Annamrita and Akshaya Patra which are a front (in like a needle, out like a plough) for GMO mass proliferation and Agri-chemical monocultural exploitation. Their plan (Agenda 21 and 2030 Agenda) is right on track because everyone is ”ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL”
Barbara Bush’s mother was Alister Crowley’s whore (can you see the family resemblance?) George Bush Senior’s (Skull and Bones) initiated name is ‘Magog’ (which means “The Army of Satan sent to earth to destroy divinity”). George W Bush, John Kerry (war criminal), Paul Bremer, McNally (Homeland “Security”) and Ash (Fanny May) are all members of ”The Brotherhood of Death” (Skull and Bones). These scum engage in war crimes, war profiteering, mass extermination, corporate control, assassination, state terrorism, promotion of homosexuality, pornography and pedophilia in their quest for worship of Demons and the Devil.
They engage in perverted sexual rituals and rights, are compulsive liars, thieves and murderers. They “create” wars and keep their own people in constant fear, poverty and ignorance this is why FISKCON now has “FULL ACCESS” to these people as they are engaging in the demons plan for The New World Order, do your own research!… Don’t take my word for it!…Don’t be BRAINWASHED (George Harrison’s ”parting shot” album). There is MASSIVE “election” fraud of Hillary Clinton all well documented on the Internet but nothing on the mainstream media NOTHING! The Illuminati want this evil bitch as President so this is the only way they can do it ELECTORAL FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!
If you think that you will get anything but lies, exploitation, intimidation, corruption, vote rigging, misery, poverty by appealing to politicians like Cameron you are naive. Politicians are rascals and demons they couldn’t care less about FISKCON’s abuse of children. This whole world is full of casualties of ‘war business’, children, hundreds of thousands of them murdered with cluster bombs, Maimed and deformed by Agent Orange (Monsanto), deformed by pyriproxyfin in Brazil (Monsanto) or starved to death due to World Bank, WHO, and EU who want to establish 2030 Agenda. DON’T LISTEN TO MAINSTREAM MEDIA it is all CONTROLLED by Demons.
Do you think it was just ”coincidence” that Jo Cox (pro European Union) MP was shot dead just before Britain’s “vote” to Stay or Exit The European Union? or “terrorist massacre” happened in Florida (where massive Clinton electoral fraud is happening? Connect the dots! The politicians don’t give a shit about you or your children! (ever heard of MK Ultra!) Wake up to yourself!
Sudarsana Das Vanacari
Hare Krsna, dear Sudarsana Prabhu.
(Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:
21. June 2016 at 8:54 am)
Thank you for your comments. You sound the alarm.
However please check the next statement
“… ‘Magog’ (which means “The Army of Satan sent to earth to destroy divinity”). …”
Of course I am not interested in “Skull and Bones”. Although I heard about them.
But ” Magog ” name is meaning originally Scythian king and nations.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Sudarsana Das Vanacari:Mahavidya Prabhu writes a letter in the Sampradaya Sun entitled “Dear Mr Cameron” (Referring to “The Cost of Silence” vid)….. Hear we go again!
Why waste your time writing to demons like Cameron?
Mahesh: the political situation in the world EVERYWHERE is the same. The rogue politicians look after their OWN pockets.They make a guest appearance with some bogus religious groups with some unholy bunch of CROOKS in religious garbs to take their photo-shots so they look popular. VOTE BANK POLITICS. They want peoples votes for staying in power. There is a symbiotic relationship between the unholy rogues in religious garbs and crooked politicians BOTH want to be popular so they can stay in power TO EXPLOIT the public. They do not care for self-realization as NEITHER party is ACTUALLY God conscious. They are ROGUES:
SB 1.9.27 P The Passing Away of Bhismadeva in the Presence of Lord Krsna
RAJA-DHARMA IS A GREAT SCIENCE, UNLIKE MODERN DIPLOMACY FOR POLITICAL SUPREMACY. The kings were trained systematically to become munificent and not merely be tax collectors. They were trained to perform different sacrifices only for the prosperity of the subjects. To lead the prajas to the attainment of salvation was a great duty of the king. The father, the spiritual master and the king are not to become irresponsible in the matter of leading their subjects to the path of ultimate liberation from birth, death, diseases and old age. When these primary duties are properly discharged, there is no need of government of the people, by the people. In modern days the people in general occupy the administration by the strength of manipulated votes, but they are never trained in the primary duties of the king, and that is also not possible for everyone. Under the circumstances the untrained administrators play havoc to make the subjects happy in all respects. ON THE OTHER HAND, THESE UNTRAINED ADMINISTRATORS GRADUALLY BECOME ROGUES AND THIEVES AND INCREASE THE TAXATION TO FINANCE A TOP-HEAVY ADMINISTRATION THAT IS USELESS FOR ALL PURPOSES. Actually the qualified brahmanas are meant to give direction to the kings for proper administration in terms of the scriptures like the Manu-samhita and Dharma-sastras of Parasara. A typical king is the ideal of the people in general, and if the king is pious, religious, chivalrous and munificent, the citizens generally follow him. Such a king is not a lazy sensuous person living at the cost of the subjects, but alert always to kill thieves and dacoits. The pious kings were not merciful to dacoits and thieves in the name of nonsensical ahimsa (nonviolence). The thieves and dacoits were punished in an exemplary way so that in the future no one would dare commit such nuisances in an organized form. SUCH THIEVES AND DACOITS WERE NEVER MEANT FOR ADMINISTRATION AS THEY ARE NOW.
SB 1.9.27 P The Passing Away of Bhismadeva in the Presence of Lord Krsna
THE TAXATION LAW WAS SIMPLE. THERE WAS NO FORCE, NO ENCROACHMENT. THE KING HAD A RIGHT TO TAKE ONE FOURTH OF THE PRODUCTION MADE BY THE SUBJECT. THE KING HAD A RIGHT TO CLAIM A FOURTH OF ONE’S ALLOTTED WEALTH. One would never grudge parting with it because due to the pious king and religious harmony there was enough natural wealth, namely grains, fruits, flowers, silk, cotton, milk, jewels, minerals, etc., and therefore no one was materially unhappy. The citizens were rich in agriculture and animal husbandry, and therefore they had enough grains, fruits and milk without any artificial needs of soaps and toilets, cinemas and bars.
THE KING HAD TO SEE THAT THE RESERVED ENERGY OF HUMANITY WAS PROPERLY UTILIZED. HUMAN ENERGY IS MEANT NOT EXACTLY FOR FULFILLING ANIMAL PROPENSITIES, BUT FOR SELF-REALIZATION. THE WHOLE GOVERNMENT WAS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO FULFILL THIS PARTICULAR PURPOSE. AS SUCH, THE KING HAD TO SELECT PROPERLY THE CABINET MINISTERS, BUT NOT ON THE STRENGTH OF VOTING BACKGROUND. THE MINISTERS, THE MILITARY COMMANDERS AND EVEN THE ORDINARY SOLDIERS WERE ALL SELECTED BY PERSONAL QUALIFICATION, AND THE KING HAD TO SUPERVISE THEM PROPERLY BEFORE THEY WERE APPOINTED TO THEIR RESPECTIVE POSTS. The king was especially vigilant to see that the tapasvis, or persons who sacrificed everything for disseminating spiritual knowledge, were never disregarded. The king knew well that the Supreme Personality of Godhead never tolerates any insult to His unalloyed devotees. Such tapasvis were trusted leaders even of the rogues and thieves, who would never disobey the orders of tapasvis. The king would give special protection to illiterates, the helpless and widows of the state. Defense measures were arranged previous to any attack by the enemies. The taxing process was easy, and it was not meant for squandering, but was for strengthening the reserve fund. The soldiers were recruited from all parts of the world, and they were trained for special duties.
AS FAR AS SALVATION IS CONCERNED, ONE HAS TO CONQUER THE PRINCIPLES OF LUST, ANGER, UNLAWFUL DESIRES, AVARICE AND BEWILDERMENT. TO GET FREEDOM FROM ANGER, ONE SHOULD LEARN HOW TO FORGIVE. TO BE FREE FROM UNLAWFUL DESIRES ONE SHOULD NOT MAKE PLANS. BY SPIRITUAL CULTURE ONE IS ABLE TO CONQUER SLEEP. BY TOLERANCE ONLY CAN ONE CONQUER DESIRES AND AVARICE. DISTURBANCES FROM VARIOUS DISEASES CAN BE AVOIDED BY REGULATED DIETS. BY SELF-CONTROL ONE CAN BE FREE FROM FALSE HOPES, AND MONEY CAN BE SAVED BY AVOIDING UNDESIRABLE ASSOCIATION. BY PRACTICE OF YOGA ONE CAN CONTROL HUNGER, AND WORLDLINESS CAN BE AVOIDED BY CULTURING THE KNOWLEDGE OF IMPERMANENCE. DIZZINESS CAN BE CONQUERED BY RISING UP, AND FALSE ARGUMENTS CAN BE CONQUERED BY FACTUAL ASCERTAINMENT. TALKATIVENESS CAN BE AVOIDED BY GRAVITY AND SILENCE, AND BY PROWESS ONE CAN AVOID FEARFULNESS. PERFECT KNOWLEDGE CAN BE OBTAINED BY SELF-CULTIVATION. ONE MUST BE FREE FROM LUST, AVARICE, ANGER, DREAMING, ETC., TO ACTUALLY ATTAIN THE PATH OF SALVATION.
As far as the women class are concerned, they are accepted as a power of inspiration for men. As such, women are more powerful than men. Mighty Julius Caesar was controlled by a Cleopatra. Such powerful women are controlled by shyness. Therefore, shyness is important for women. Once this control valve is loosened, women can create havoc in society by adultery. Adultery means production of unwanted children known as varna-sankara, who disturb the world.
The last item taught by Bhismadeva was the process of pleasing the Lord. We are all eternal servants of the Lord, and when we forget this essential part of our nature we are put into material conditions of life. The simple process of pleasing the Lord (for the householders especially) is to install the Deity of the Lord at home. By concentrating on the Deity, one may progressively go on with the daily routine work. Worshiping the Deity at home, serving the devotee, hearing the Srimad-Bhagavatam, residing in a holy place and chanting the holy name of the Lord are all inexpensive items by which one can please the Lord. Thus the subject matter was explained by the grandfather to his grandchildren.
SB 4.14.17 The Story of King Vena
The saintly persons continued: When the king protects the citizens from the disturbances of mischievous ministers as well as from thieves and rogues, he can, by virtue of such pious activities, accept taxes given by his subjects. Thus a pious king can certainly enjoy himself in this world as well as in the life after death.
PURPORT
The duty of a pious king is described very nicely in this verse. His first and foremost duty is to give protection to the citizens from thieves and rogues as well as from ministers who are no better than thieves and rogues. Formerly, ministers were appointed by the king and were not elected. Consequently, if the king was not very pious or strict, the ministers would become thieves and rogues and exploit the innocent citizens. It is the king’s duty to see that there is no increase of thieves and rogues either in the government secretariat or in the departments of public affairs. If a king cannot give protection to citizens from thieves and rogues both in the government service and in public affairs, he has no right to exact taxes from them. In other words, the king or the government that taxes can levy taxes from the citizens only if the king or government is able to give protection to the citizens from thieves and rogues.
IN THE TWELFTH CANTO OF SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM (12.1.42) THERE IS A DESCRIPTION OF THESE THIEVES AND ROGUES IN GOVERNMENT SERVICE. AS STATED, PRAJAS TE BHAKSAYISYANTI MLECCHA RAJANYA-RUPINAH: “THESE PROUD MLECCHAS [PERSONS WHO ARE LESS THAN SUDRAS]. REPRESENTING THEMSELVES AS KINGS, WILL TYRANNIZE THEIR SUBJECTS, AND THEIR SUBJECTS, ON THE OTHER HAND, WILL CULTIVATE THE MOST VICIOUS PRACTICES. THUS PRACTICING EVIL HABITS AND BEHAVING FOOLISHLY, THE SUBJECTS WILL BE LIKE THEIR RULERS.” THE IDEA IS THAT IN THE DEMOCRATIC DAYS OF KALI-YUGA, THE GENERAL POPULATION WILL FALL DOWN TO THE STANDARD OF SUDRAS. AS STATED (KALAU SUDRA-SAMBHAVAH), PRACTICALLY THE WHOLE POPULATION OF THE WORLD WILL BE SUDRA. A sudra is a fourth-class man who is only fit to work for the three higher social castes. Being fourth-class men, sudras are not very intelligent. Since the population is fallen in these democratic days, they can only elect a person in their category, but a government cannot run very well when it is run by sudras. The second class of men, known as ksatriyas, are especially meant for governing a country under the direction of saintly persons (brahmanas) who are supposed to be very intelligent. In other ages–in Satya-yuga, Treta-yuga and Dvapara-yuga–the general populace was not so degraded, and the head of government was never elected. The king was the supreme executive personality, and if he caught any ministers stealing like thieves and rogues, he would at once have them killed or dismissed from service. As it was the duty of the king to kill thieves and rogues, it was similarly his duty to immediately kill dishonest ministers in government service. By such strict vigilance, the king could run the government very well, and the citizens would be happy to have such a king. The conclusion is that unless the king is perfectly able to give protection to the citizens from rogues and thieves, he has no right to levy taxes from the citizens for his own sense gratification. However, if he gives all protection to the citizens and levies taxes on them, he can live very happily and peacefully in this life, and at the end of this life be elevated to the heavenly kingdom or even to the Vaikunthas, where he will be happy in all respects.
Yes, thank you Prabhu.
Scythian King and Nations (which disappeared over time) also include the same lands (Caspian and Black seas) as the Kazars who also were nomadic people who migrated through Europe and Russia (the word Cossack comes from Kazars). Kazars adopted the Jewish faith but originate from Persia. Kazars who migrated to Germany are called Ashkenazi Jews but in ancient times Germans were known as Huns.
Revelation 20.4 (Gill Exposition) At the expiration of which term Satan will be loosed, and go out to prison, deceive the nations, and gather GOG and MAGOG to battle; who being exceedingly numerous will cover the breadth of the earth, encompass the camp and the city of the saints, where fire will come down from heaven and destroy them, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet are, and be tormented for ever and ever.
These verses refer to “End Times” in which there will be a ‘war of global magnitude’ as Krishna vanquishes the demons to purify the earth. Every “religion” has become infested with demons.
What army on this planet is not the army of Satan? and what will remain? I think everyone has an opinion about that.
Whether in the material world or the spiritual world we can only know what Lord Krishna wants us to know as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya) even among Sri Krishna’s close associates, to fulfill the Lords plan and eternal pastimes.
Your servant
Sudarsana
In this Material world we understand and know that Mahamaya creates ILLUSION to keep the conditioned Jivas under the control of three mode of the material nature but how is it that Yogamaya in the Spiritual world creates illusion for WHO and WHY ?
The question arises after reading your very interesting writing in which it reads ; ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya) ……….”
Prabhu Sudarsana Das Vanacari , please shed some more light on it.
Mahamaya is an extension of Yogamaya and are part of Sri Krishna’s internal potency. Mahamaya is not present in the spiritual world. Sri Krishna’s pastimes in the Spiritual World employ the illusory energy of Yogamaya for the pleasure of Sri Krishna and his devotees.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari says: ” Sri Krishna’s pastimes in the Spiritual World employ the illusory energy of Yogamaya for the pleasure of Sri Krishna and his devotees. ”
Would you kindly provide with such reference from the revealed scripture explaining the illusory energy of Yogamaya in the Spiritual World is needed for the pleasure of Shri Krishna and His devotees.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Sudarsana Prabhu, I just came across to the following verse of the Srimad Bhagavatam which is self explanatory with regard to the pasttimes of the Lord Shri Krishna who creates the Material Universe where ILLUSORY potency (MAHAMAYA ) exists NOT in the Spiritual World as you have written in your comments which was brought out in my writing for clarification.
Should you still find out any reference to clarify your position, please do share with us.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight – Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20
śrī-vindhyāvalir uvāca
krīḍārtham ātmana idaṁ tri-jagat kṛtaṁ te
svāmyaṁ tu tatra kudhiyo ‘para īśa kuryuḥ
kartuḥ prabhos tava kim asyata āvahanti
tyakta-hriyas tvad-avaropita-kartṛ-vādāḥ
śrī-vindhyāvaliḥ uvāca—Vindhyāvali, the wife of Bali Mahārāja, said; krīḍā-artham—for the sake of pastimes; ātmanaḥ—of Yourself; idam—this; tri-jagat—the three worlds (this universe); kṛtam—was created; te—by You; svāmyam—proprietorship; tu—but; tatra—thereon; kudhiyaḥ—foolish rascals; apare—others; īśa—O my Lord; kuryuḥ—have established; kartuḥ—for the supreme creator; prabhoḥ—for the supreme maintainer; tava—for Your good self; kim—what; asyataḥ—for the supreme annihilator; āvahanti—they can offer; tyakta-hriyaḥ—shameless, without intelligence; tvat—by You; avaropita—falsely imposed because of a poor fund of knowledge; kartṛ-vādāḥ—the proprietorship of such foolish agnostics.
Śrīmatī Vindhyāvali said: O my Lord, You have created the entire universe for the enjoyment of Your personal pastimes, but foolish, unintelligent men have claimed proprietorship for material enjoyment. Certainly they are shameless agnostics. Falsely claiming proprietorship, they think they can give charity and enjoy. In such a condition, what good can they do for You, who are the independent creator, maintainer and annihilator of this universe?
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu.
Thank you for your contribution.
There is mentioned in Srila Prabhupada’s purport (SB 5.6.15) “the illusory energy of Yogamaya”. I have also seen this description mentioned in numerous purports.
The illusory energy is generally referred to as Mahamaya but as this example shows, that is not always the case.
Your humble servant
Sudarsana
Sudarsana Prabhu ; Where in the purport of SB. 5.6.15 provided below says ;
” the illusory energy of Yogamaya in the Spiritual World is needed for the pleasure of Shri Krishna and His devotees ? ”
Your example of saying in your comment that the Illusory energy of Yogamaya in the Spiritual world exists is no where to be found. If you have read and seen such description in numerous purports as you are saying, then, you must provide such purport. That is what I am humbly asking you, Prabhu.
PURPORT of SB. 5.6.15 ;
Generally yogīs desire the yogic perfections of aṇimā, laghimā, mahimā, prākāmya, prāpti, īśitva, vaśitva and kāmāvasāyitā. Lord Ṛṣabhadeva, however, never aspired for all these material things. Such siddhis (perfections) are presented by the illusory energy of the Lord. The real purpose of the yoga system is to achieve the favor and shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but this purpose is covered by the illusory energy of yogamāyā. So-called yogīs are therefore allured by the superficial material perfections of aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti and so forth. Consequently ordinary yogīs cannot compare to Lord Ṛṣabhadeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Sudarsana Prabhu, the Illusory energy of Yogamaya only exists as Mahamaya in the material Universe created by the Lord Himself for His Pasttimes as explained in my comments taken from the Srimad Bhagavatam.
Further SB. 5.6.15 does explain as well ; ” …….. Such siddhis (perfections) are presented by the illusory energy of the Lord. The real purpose of the yoga system is to achieve the favor and shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but this purpose is covered by the illusory energy of yogamāyā. So-called yogīs are therefore allured by the superficial material perfections of aṇimā, laghimā, prāpti and so forth….. ”
As you said : ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”, therefore, there is no where in the revealed scripture it says that ” the illusory energy of Yogamaya in the Spiritual World is needed for the pleasure of Shri Krishna and His devotees ”.
Hope it meets you satisfactory.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Amar Puri Prabhu.
Your point is well taken. We are using the English language translated from Sanskrit so we use words or phrases to describe the Vedic meanings of Sanskrit words. We for example translate the word ‘dharma’ to ‘religion’ for the sake of expediency but this is both correct and ‘incorrect’ as it would take many paragraphs to properly describe what the word dharma truly represents.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Sudarsana Prabhu, why are you describing in comparision your point of view of Srila Prabhupada’s purport (SB 5.6.15) “the illusory energy of Yogamaya” translated from Sanskrit to English language by giving an example of Sanskrit word ‘ dharma ‘ to ‘ religion ‘ in English language which both correct and ‘incorrect ‘ ?
Now you accept or reject as pointed out in my comments from Srila Prabhupada that Yogamaya does not create ILLUSORY ENERGY in the Spiritual planet for the pasttimes of the Lord as you described in your comments without any such reference from Srila Prabhupada when you indeed said that Srila Prabhupada has said numerous time and you have not provided with any of the such statement from Srila Prabhupada.
Why are you engaging yourself into such discussion which you can not provide any PROOF of it from Srila Prbhupada ?
Has Srila Prabhupada not warned us that never never never ever believe from any body when some body uses in saying that Srila Prabhupada said this and that without any such PROOF ?
I do respect you a lot, Prabhu, but please do not continue engaging into this type of misdirected example in your comments which leads us into further and further deeper confusion and misleading unnecessarily simply to satisfy your EGO.
I always learn many things by reading your writing but when it is wrong, it is wrong unless it is backed up with the statement in the revealed scripture.
I do sincerely hope that you will please forgive me for any offence I have made in this writing as pointed out but that is not at all my intend and purpose of it.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
SB 10.7.32
The Killing of the Demon Trinavarta
Translation.
“Because of the bits of sand thrown about by Trinavarta, people could not see themselves or anyone else, and thus they were illusioned and disturbed”
SB 10.7.23
The Killing of the Demon Trinavarta.
Purport. (paragraph 3)
……………….
“To increase the transcendental pleasure of the gopas and gopis, Krishna, the killer of all demons, was thus raised by His father and mother Nanda and Yasoda.”
Hare Krsna. Sudarsana Prabhu
Ref: Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:
21. June 2016 at 3:37 pm
Our knowledge are different.
Obviously this site is not proper place to discuss these things and I do not want that. But if you talk about brainwash then you should also pay attention to the forgery of the History by “the New World Order”.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
That which is not understood needs to be discussed otherwise this creates problems further down the track, which as anyone can see is happening right now. Perhaps you prefer the ”DEBATE” section of Bangalore’s ISKCON Times? 35 ”Articles” but NOT ONE COMMENT!
Hare Krsna, Sudarsana Prabhu.
Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:
22. June 2016 at 6:09 am
Perhaps you prefer the ”DEBATE” section of Bangalore’s ISKCON Times?
This is not in fact.
Obviously I will not debate on this site in connection with issues of Schytian, Kazar, Hun and Jewish. But your knowledge is not good in these things.
Therefore we should pay attention to our own words better.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
marica prabhu says ; ” Obviously I will not debate on this site in connection with issues of Schytian, Kazar, Hun and Jewish. But your knowledge is not good in these things.”
Prabhu, why do you say particularly this ; ” ….. But your knowledge is not good in these things.” when you have not proven any thing in your comments as to why Sudarsna Das Vanacari’s knowledge is not good in these things ? Where is the problem, Prabhu marica ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Since the topic we are discussing is child abuse it is worthwhile to note that the world powers who have a long history of banking fraud, secret fraternities of demon worship , tyranny, warmongering and war- profiteering, corporate fraud, environmental vandalism, drug running, mass murder, exploitation, slavery and brain-washing, racketeering, hypocrisy, media manipulation, assassination, torture, chemical poisoning, social conditioning and mass community, behavioral indoctrination are also deeply connected to sexual perversion and child abuse.
The world is full of demons and even more numerous are the morons and shills who obey them. When we mention the most powerful, the Bush’s, Clinton’s, Trump, European elite, British Aristocracy etc they are ALL associated with pedophilia and sexual perversion and ALL OF THE ABOVE! (research this for yourself!). They will all be destroyed by the power of the Lord as they are all heading toward Hell! We can see how the demons have poisoned Srila Prabhupada and ruined ISKCON and abused devotees.
So what has this got to do with Scythian, Kazar, Hun and Jew? you may ask!
Wasn’t Tamal Krishna an Ashkenazi, German, Jew (who’s ancestors originated from Scythian/Kazarian lands?
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Hare Krsna.
The today’s world can dirty ancient nations (Scythian, Kazar, Hun, German ) based on smart theories ( falsity can not be sold without truth contain, see Ashkenazi) so easily that responsibility be diminished.
That is all.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Readers may wish to know further about:
YOGAMAYA AND MAHAMAYA: THE DIFFERENCE
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43455
Mahesh Prabhu, thank you very much for your post.
I disagree only with the statement of Sudarsana Prabhu when he says that Yogamaya does create ILLUSORY ENERGY in the SPIRITUAL PLANET for the pasttimes of the Lord as HE described in his comments without any such reference from Srila Prabhupada despite the fact that we know and understand very well that the very word DURGA in Sanskrit refers to in the Scripture as the Yogamaya as well but that Yogamaya does not create any ILLUSORY ENERGY in the SPIRITUAL PLANET for the pastimes of the Lord. That is my POINT. That is where I differ from Sudasana Prabhu misleading statement in his comments when he said ; ” ……… ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
That is the discussion all about.
Once again thank you, Prabhu for your posting from Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I did not use the term “Spiritual Planet”. So why are you trying to confuse the issue?
Sudarsana Prabhu said in his comments ; ” ……….. ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
When you say both WORLDS, it mean PLANETS, isn’t it, Prabhu ?
OK. Do not use the word PLANET, use the word WORLD instead.
What and where is the difference, Prabhu ? Where is the confusion in the issue ?
Does SB 10.7.23 and SB 10.7.32 quoted by you as a reference make your misunderstanding valid saying that the past time of the Lord ” The Killing of the Demon Trinavarta ” took place in the Spiritual World ?
Does this NOT material world created by the Lord for His Past time as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 validated in my comments ?
Prabhu Sudarsana Das, everything else was ok except the following paragraph in your comments which created our undesireable discussion ;
” Whether in the material world or the spiritual world we can only know what Lord Krishna wants us to know as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya) even among Sri Krishna’s close associates, to fulfill the Lords plan and eternal pastimes. ”
I do not find it wise at all neither from your side nor from my side to continue on this very undesirable and unproductive discussion.
So, kindly, Prabhu, let us STOP here.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
Sudarsana Prabhu said in his comments ; ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
Here is my humble suggestion, Prabhu, the above line should have not been there at all in your comments which is full of confusion and irrelevant to your wisely written paragraph which should read as ;
” Whether in the material world or the spiritual world we can only know what Lord Krishna wants us to know even among Sri Krishna’s close associates, to fulfill the Lords plan and eternal pastimes ”
Simply by removing the very confusing line ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”, in the paragraph, your writing becomes perfect.
I do not find the confusing line ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion ( Mahamaya and Yogamaya ) serve at all any meaningful purpose in the writing except simply creating undesirable CONFUSION which has led us to this point.
That is why I do not want to continue discussion on it because it is indeed waste of time.
Sorry Prabhu for any offences I have committed during this unnecessarily discussion because simply I am a Mellacha. I need the blessings from the Vaishnavas, the followers and the devotees of Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS. … Amar Puri.
Hare Krsna Sudarsana & Amar Puri prabhus,
Mahesh prabhu has quoted previously >>
Mahesh Raja says:
23. June 2016 at 9:20 pm
Readers may wish to know further about:
YOGAMAYA AND MAHAMAYA: THE DIFFERENCE
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=43455
This explains exactly the function of Yogamaya’s expansion of Mahamaya to control the jivas in the material world, the deluding potency.
Krsna’s Yogamaya potency acts in the Spiritual world and for Krsna’s incarnation pastimes when He appears, as per BG 4.8. It simply acts on His liberated jivas and expansions, both here and in the Spiritual world, otherwise how could His pastimes be enacted in the 5 mellows or Rasas if the liberated souls are consciously aware of His Supreme Godhead. Krsna also allows Himself to be covered by His own internal potency Yogamaya, so He can enjoy the mellows of Rasa with His liberated souls.
Not sure where the confusion is, however a close read of Mahesh prabhu’s reference & quotes seems to make it very clear, as Srila Prabhupada’s purports & instructions always do.
Yhs… Balaram das.
Yes Prabhu! it certainly is very clear. (to some anyhow!)
Yes Prabhu, I see what you mean.
Yhs, bal.
Wherever Sri Krishna’s pastimes are manifest that is the spiritual world. When He comes here He comes as expansion (through the agency of Lord Visnu). He simultaneously remains eternally in Goloka Vrndavan (Sri Krishna’s Eternal Abode) performing His eternal pastime there, but wherever Krishna is He brings the spiritual world with Him. His pure devotees are covered (or bewildered or in the example I gave illusioned and disturbed), as to Sri Krishna’s true position (The Supreme Personality of Godhead) so His trancendental pastimes can take place this is through the agency of Yogamaya. So through the agency of Yogamaya Krishnas pastimes are able to take place (this covering or illusion should not be confused with material ignorance Mahamaya).
As we are all conditioned souls in this material word we are in ignorance, therefore, we are offenders to the Lord. As we are offenders, we are kept in ignorance and illusion through Mahamaya He only reveals to us spiritual knowledge by our surrender to His pure devotees (Srila Prabhupada and previous Acharyas). Sri Krishna doesn’t want us to remain in illusion (in the form of Mahamaya) so He sends His pure devotee. As our devotion and love for Sri Krishna increases then The Lord reveals the knowledge whereby we can serve the Lotus Feet of The Lord in His Eternal Pastimes.
“Whether in the material world or the spiritual world we can only know what Lord Krishna wants us to know as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya) even among Sri Krishna’s close associates, To fulfill The Lords plan and eternal pastimes.”
Of course when I give the example of “Sri Krishna’s close associates” I refer to Yogamaya and not Mahamaya.
Hare Krsna Sudarsana prabhu,
Just now reading in Bhaktivedanta Purport to SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45, (The Appearance of Lord Varaha), Srila Prabhupada states >>>
“Visvam samastam is very significant here. There are the material world and spiritual world. The sages pray:
‘Both worlds are bewildered by your different energies. Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, forgetting themselves and You also, and those who are in the material world are absorbed in material sense gratification and therefore also forget You. No one can know You because You are unlimited’…….”
IMHO, confirming our comments on Krsna’s ‘different energies’, Yogamaya & Mahamaya and how BOTH worlds are bewildered.
Yhs, Bal.
Yes, Balaram Prabhu. This verse seems very significant and in my humble opinion most relevant to the points being discussed on this topic. These are points not necessarily widely discussed and therefore some misunderstandings may arise.
Thank you for spending the time to find this sloka (it would have taken me perhaps all day!) as I am not such a ‘scholar’.
Your servant in the service of Srila Prabhupada
Sudarsana
Hare Krsna Sudarsana Prabhu..
It’s amazing how Krsna seems to present things to our feeble intellect when appropriate. I wasn’t doing any ‘research’ but just reading my way again through the Bhagavatam (nityam bhagavata-sevaya), and IMHO this purport by Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear.
Also the same thing is explained in the reference quoted by Mahesh Raj Prabhu>>>
“SB 10.1.69 P The Advent of Lord Krsna: Introduction
THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO MAYAS–YOGAMAYA AND MAHA-MAYA–IS DESCRIBED AS FOLLOWS. KRSNA’S RASA-LILA WITH THE GOPIS AND THE GOPIS’ BEWILDERMENT IN RESPECT TO THEIR HUSBANDS, FATHERS-IN-LAW AND OTHER SUCH RELATIVES WERE ARRANGEMENTS OF YOGAMAYA IN WHICH MAHAMAYA HAD NO INFLUENCE. The Bhagavatam gives sufficient evidence of this when it clearly says, yogamayam upasritah. ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE WERE ASURAS HEADED BY SALVA AND KSATRIYAS LIKE DURYODHANA WHO WERE BEREFT OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE IN SPITE OF SEEING KRSNA’S CARRIER GARUDA AND THE UNIVERSAL FORM, AND WHO COULD NOT UNDERSTAND KRSNA TO BE THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THIS WAS ALSO BEWILDERMENT, BUT THIS BEWILDERMENT WAS DUE TO MAHAMAYA. THEREFORE IT IS TO BE CONCLUDED THAT THE MAYA WHICH DRAGS A PERSON FROM THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IS CALLED JADAMAYA, AND THE MAYA WHICH ACTS ON THE TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM IS CALLED YOGAMAYA. When Nanda Maharaja was taken away by Varuna, he saw Krsna’s opulence, but nonetheless he thought of Krsna as his son. Such feelings of parental love in the spiritual world are acts of yogamaya, not of jadamaya, or mahamaya. This is the opinion of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura.
Prabhupada said everything is in his books dictated by Krsna… we just have to read regularly & repeatedly. Of course these aspects of Krsna’s energies are beyond our limited realizations, but Srila Prabhupada’s transcendental literatures & commissioned artwork are ‘windows’ to the Spiritual World.
All glories to His Divine Grace.
Yhs, Bal.
Balaram Prabhu ;
Please answer the following questions after reading very carefully Bhaktivedanta Purport in the SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45 as quoted by your goodself ;
PURPORT
Mental speculators who want to understand the limit of the Unlimited are certainly nonsensical. Every one of them is captivated by the external potencies of the Lord. The best thing for them is to surrender unto Him, knowing Him to be inconceivable, for thus they can receive His causeless mercy. This prayer was offered by the inhabitants of the higher planetary systems, namely the Jana, Tapas and Satya lokas, who are far more intelligent and powerful than humans.
Viśvaṁ samastam is very significant here. There are the material world and the spiritual world. The sages pray: “Both worlds are bewildered by Your different energies. Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, forgetting themselves and You also, and those in the material world are absorbed in material sense gratification and therefore also forget You. No one can know You, because You are unlimited. It is best not to try to know You by unnecessary mental speculation. Rather, kindly bless us so that we can worship You with causeless devotional service.”
” Both worlds are bewildered in what sense ?
Where does in the PURPORT quoted above it says that in the Spiritual world ILLUSION exists ?
Also kindly read my comments ;
” Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment…………… ”
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Material world = bewildered by Mahamaya = conditioned souls.
Spiritual world = bewildered by Yogamaya = liberated souls = “Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, FORGETTING THEMSELVES AND YOU ALSO” (so that the rasas may be enjoyed by both Krsna and the liberated jivas under the BEWILDERMENT of Yogamaya).
Prabhu I fail to see why this is so confusing for you, as these ‘quotes’ are from Srila Prabhupada’s books. Therefore I have nothing further to add to this discussion.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Balaram Prabhu says ; Prabhu, I fail to see why this is so confusing for you, as these ‘quotes’ are from Srila Prabhupada’s books. Therefore I have nothing further to add to this discussion.”
Prabhu, before you end your discussion, at least please quote where in Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS it is written what you have said in your comments.
What ever I have said in my comments, I have given references from the Scriptures written by Srila Prabhupada.
Where as you have not given any reference from Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS. Simply your saying without the proper reference is not acceptable your point of view which are subject to four defects.
Hope you do provide some references in this regard.
Thus far whatever you have given references from the Scriptures do not correspond to what you believe to have said. Rather it proves that what I have said in my comments correspond to it and it goes against your very own perception which leads to CONTRADICTORY to Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS as pointed out in my comments.
Of course, it is certainly your choice not to clarify further what I ask for it which I accept but please do not mislead.
Hope you understand it. We are here simply to learn from each other. That is my only purpose.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Balaram Prabhu, please read carefully what you are saying ;
” Spiritual world = bewildered by Yogamaya = liberated souls = “Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, FORGETTING THEMSELVES AND YOU ALSO” (so that the rasas may be enjoyed by both Krsna and the liberated jivas under the BEWILDERMENT of Yogamaya). ”
And please read also what I have quoted from the conversation of Srila Prabhupada with the devotees ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
Does your own explanation cited above correspond with what Srila Prabhupada says as quoted ?
Please do not try to BEWILDER (confuse ) the Readers in any shape or style of your writing the answer to my questions in saying that what you write comes from Srila Prabhupada unless you really quote with the reference from the Scripture.
BEWILDER is totally different from the meaning of an ILLUSION as you know it.
For an example, Mother Yasoda becomes BEWILDER ( confuse ) momentarily when she sees in the mouth of Shri Krishna the entire universe during Shri Krishna’s past time.
The same thing when Arjuna sees the Lord’s Universal Form, he becomes BEWILDER
( confuse ).
Does that mean they forget their respective rasas i.e. relationship with the Lord on account of the ILLUSION, or cover up of the Yogamaya ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhu Balaram, your comments are well appreciated.
As we understand from the scripture that the Spiritual world is full of ENLIGHTENMENT. Only Liberated Jivas lives there whereas the Material world is full of DARKNESS (ILLUSION ) and the CONDITIONED Jivas live in the Material world.
Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?
Giving you the benefit of doubt that there is ILLUSION in the Spiritual world, then, why the Lord created the Material world as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 as described by my comments in this thread of discussion ?
Does SB 10.7.23 and SB 10.7.32 quoted by Sudarsana Prabhu as a reference make his misunderstanding valid saying that the past time of the Lord ” The Killing of the Demon Trinavarta ” took place in the Spiritual World ?
These are the questions needed to be answered with a reference from the revealed scripture to validate this very CONCOCTED writing ; ” ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna Amar Puri prabhu,
You state.. “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?”
As in my previous comment, the ‘illusion’ or Yogamaya is so that the liberated jivas can engage in their rasa pastimes with Krsna, without seeing Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mother Yasoda sees Krsna as her ‘small child’, Cowherd boys see Krsna as their wonderful ‘friend’, Gopis see Krsna as their ‘lover’ and so on, all due to the Yogamaya potency of Krsna allowing these pastimes to take place in a reciprocal mode.
Hope this helps Prabhu, as I cannot add anything further.
Yhs, Balaram das.
Balaram Prabhu, your comments in reply to my question ; ” “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?” are based on the assumption of ” illusion or Yogamaya in the Spiritual world for the Liberated Jivas in association with the Lord pastimes without seeing Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The Liberated Jiva means free from any type of ILLUSION simply rendering unconditional service for the pleasure of the Lord according to their particular relation with the Lord. That is the QUALIFICATION of the Liberated Jivas as per Sastras.
So why there should be any illusion in the Spiritual world ?
As for the example of Mother Yasoda seeing Krsna as her small child, Cowherd boys see Krsna as their wonderful friend, Gopis see Krsna as their Lover and so on these relationships are indeed there with the Lord as per their respective Eternal position of these Liberated Jivas who see the Lord in loving relations allowing these pastimes to take place in a reciprocal mode without any illusion or free from any independent influence of the Yogamaya.
Yogamaya simply serves her Master as the Master desires for His Pastime along with the association of the Liberated Jivas where ever it is necessary. Is it not TRUE ?
That is what it is described in the revealed scriptures as quoted by my comments in this thread of discussion that there is no ILLUSION in the Spiritual world where Liberated Jivas live.
That is why I disagree with the writing ; ”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”
As there is no illusion in the Spiritual world, therefore, every Liberated Jivas as per their Eternal respective loving position of the relationship serve the Lord.
That is why I said ; “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?”
If the Spiritual world indeed is subject to four defects in which ILLUSION is one of them which does exist in the Material world, then, what is the difference between Spiritual and Material world ( ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….” ) ?
What is the meaning of Spiritual world ?
Is Spiritual world NOT free from DEFECTS ?
If the answer is NO, where and what is the PROOF ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Balaram Prabhu ; the Illusory energy of Yogamaya only exists as Mahamaya in the material Universe created by the Lord Himself for His Pastimes as explained in my comments taken from the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 in this thread. Perhaps, it looks like you did not read it.
As the discussion is on this CONCOCTED writing : ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”, therefore, there is no where in the revealed scripture it says that ” the illusory energy of Yogamaya in the Spiritual World is needed for the pleasure of Shri Krishna and His devotees ”.
Hope you pay carefully attention to it, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The Elitist leaders of Europe, USA, Australia are all members of New World Order which is a worldwide pedophile cult connection of Satanists and Atheists. The idea of sending a letter to David Cameron complaining about child abuse is naive in the extreme! Who do you think it was that protected Jimmy Saville for all those decades? The British Establishment of course! Satanism and pedophilia are the modus operandi of Satanic Cults, Freemasons, Skull and Bones, Scroll and Key, Bohemian Grove, Catholicism, Scientology, Illuminati, MI6, and CIA.
The CIA run Australia not this recent ”sham” election. Most of Australian Government leaders Hawke, Keating, Gillard etc etc (past and present) are members of the Fabian Society (as is Tony Blair) all these societies are interconnected. The symbol of the Fabian Society is a picture of a “WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING”……….not so surprising is it?
Blair came out of the Iraq ”investigation” UNSCATHED as did Hillary Clinton with the FBI “investigation”.
THE MORE DEMONIC FISKCON BECOMES, THE CLOSER! AND COZIER THEY BECOME WITH THE WORLDS WESTERN POLITICAL ELITE AS THEY HAVE LONG AGO BEEN INFILTRATED BY THESE DEMONS! THEIR BUSINESS IS THE SAME POWER, CONTROL, EXPLOITATION, WAR PROFITEERING, PLUNDERING AND PILLAGING, DEPRAVITY AND PEDOPHILIA.
Charles Darwin’s brother Erasmus Darwin together with Bertrand Russell (Socialist Author), Victor Rothschild (Banker), Tennyson (poet), and Lord Balfour (Zionist founder of the ‘Israeli occupation’), were all members of of ”The Cambridge Apostles”, which is a secret society of pedophiles! and boy buggerers!
The ONLY way to prosecute these scum is to hire private investigators and then send ‘copies of evidence’ to the media or publish ‘online’. Do not trust the Government!
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
David Cameron has a history of pedophilia coverups. He was a “sleaze fixer” for Carlton Television during the John Majors government.
Cameron and Theresa May (UK’s new Prime Minister) shut down inquiries into the Westminster pedophile rings, they have been covering up for their pedophile pals for decades!
Jimmy Savile had thousands of victims over 6 decades. Many of the ”childrens charities” were owned and operated by the Freemasons.
This new “independent” child abuse investigative body (appointed by Cameron) is just another WHITEWASH, one would have to be incredibly stupid to think otherwise!
YOGAMAYA and Mahamaya
Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. So great sages who are impersonalists are also under the spell of mahamaya, because a conditioned soul in the material world wants to improve his material position as exalted as possible, and the concept of becoming one with the Supreme Lord is the greatest illusion for them. Because it is a fact that nobody can be equal or greater than the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such, anyone desiring to become one with the Supreme means that he is still in the trap of maya. On the other hand, a humble devotee who may not be a great sage, but simply by his implicit acceptance of the Lotus Feet of the Lord as the goal of his life means that he is under the protection of yogamaya.
prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni / guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā / kartāham iti manyate
“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27) Within conditioned life, no one has freedom, but because one is bewildered, being subject to the rule of mahāmāyā, one foolishly thinks himself independent (ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]). But when the conditioned soul becomes liberated by executing devotional service, he is given a greater and greater chance to relish a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in different transcendental statuses, such as dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa and mādhurya-rasa.
In the material world the conditioned soul thinks of himself as a product of tri-guṇa, (Satto, Rajo and Tamo Guna ) the three modes of material nature. This is the bodily conception of life. Because of associating with the three guṇas of the material potency, everyone identifies himself with his body.
Respected Learned Readers,
The following is taken from the conversation of HDG. Srila Prabhupada with the devotees which clarifies that there is no “ ILLUSION “ in the Spiritual world ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;
From Srila Prabhupada’s explanation cited above, it is very clear that some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
Therefore, all the quotes from the scriptures quoted by Sriman Balaram Prabhu and Sriman Sudarsana Prabhu refer to that that there is indeed no ILLUSION in the Spiritual world WHEN the PURPOSE of word “ bewildered “ is referred to as the voluntary desire of such exalted DEVOTEES of the Lord in execution of the devotional service to the Dear Most Lord Shri Krishna.
So, where is the question of ILLUSION being present in the Spiritual world ?
To accept such a misunderstanding of the word ” bewildered ” as an ILLUSION without knowing and understanding its sense certainly causes CONTRADICTORY in the revealed Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru’s VANI.
Is it NOT TRUE Prabhus ? Kindly do correct me please, if my understanding is INCORRECCT.
Hope it satisfies in clarity for the understanding of all the Learned Readers as pointed out in my various comments in this thread.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
SB 10 . 7 . 32
The killing of Trinarvarta
Translation.
“Because of the bits of sand thrown about by Trinavarta people could not see themselves or anyone else, and thus they were ILLUSIONED (emphasis mine) and disturbed.”
Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa are referring here to MAHAMAYA that is pretty obvious!
Your spelling of incorrect is incorrect!
SB. 10.7.32 reads ;
TRANSLATION
Nanda Mahārāja and the others said: We must previously have performed austerities for a very long time, worshiped the Supreme Personality of Godhead, performed pious activities for public life, constructing public roads and wells, and also given charity, as a result of which this boy, although faced with death, has returned to give happiness to His relatives.
PURPORT
Nanda Mahārāja confirmed that by pious activities one can become a sādhu so that one will be happy at home and one’s children will be protected. In śāstra there are many injunctions for karmīs and jñānīs, especially for karmīs, by which they can become pious and happy even in material life. According to Vedic civilization, one should perform activities for the benefit of the public, such as constructing public roads, planting trees on both sides of the road so that people can walk in the shade, and constructing public wells so that everyone can take water without difficulty. One should perform austerity to control one’s desires, and one must simultaneously worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus one becomes pious, and as a result one is happy even in material conditions of life.
I am sorry to state that I could not see and read what you say in your comments to support your believe from SB. 10.7.32 as described below ;
“Because of the bits of sand thrown about by Trinavarta people could not see themselves or anyone else, and thus they were ILLUSIONED (emphasis mine) and disturbed.”
Further you said ; ” Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa are referring here to MAHAMAYA that is pretty obvious! “.
Prabhu, what is your source of concluding pretty obvious in your comments cited above ?
Do you read in Srila Prabhupada’s answer that he is referring to MAHAMAYA ?
Balaram Prabhu and yourself Prabhu have quoted references before as well in your comments but unfortunately none of your quoted references support your believe what you are trying to prove as brought out in my comments.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa are referring here* to MAHAMAYA that is pretty obvious!
* Meaning Amar Puri Prabhu’s comment that I am replying to, NOT MY PREVIOUS SENTENCE.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Prabhu Sudarsana das, you have given so many reply by quoting from the Sastras in which you could not prove with even one reference that the “ILLUSION ” does exist in the Spiritual world. Thus, none of your references from your quoted Scripture support your believe, rather all your references contradict to what you believe as I have pointed out in my various comments.
Now you are replying by saying ; ” Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa are referring here* to MAHAMAYA that is pretty obvious!
Where does your reply support to what you believe that the ” ILLUSION ” does exist in the Spiritual
world ?
Also where Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa are referring in the conversation ” to MAHAMAYA ” which makes you believe pretty obvious ?
What are you referring when you say ; ” * Meaning Amar Puri Prabhu’s comment that I am replying to, NOT MY PREVIOUS SENTENCE. ?
Most importantly where do you read in Srila Prabhupada’s answer that he is referring to MAHAMAYA in reply to the question of Hari Sauri and Madhuvisa ?
Why are you quoting SB. 10.7.32, and other stories when there is no such reference to support your believe ?
What is your motive to make up such writings which CONTRADICT the Sastras from which you are quoting as reference when there is no such reference to be found in your quoted references from the Scripture to support your believe?
Hope you do clarify your position by addressing these questions.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada letter, February 13, 1969
” Sincerity of purpose is the only qualification for Krishna Consciousness.
Sri Narottama das Thakura says that he hankers after the company of any person,
never mind whether he is in the renounced order of life or in householder life,
just as long as he is merged into the ocean of Krishna Consciousness. ”
Dear Readers, that is indeed all of us must seek such association.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh Raja Prabhu, Balarama Prabhu and myself have ALL given sastric answers to your question. I do not know why you find something, that is so simple, so complicated! Perhaps ” the sincerity of your purpose” is the real issue here, either that or you are a complicated, neurotic personality with quite a excessive degree of narcism and self importance.
Your misguided ‘insinuations’ are a clear attempt to cast aspersions on those who in good faith are trying to help you understand that which you find so confusing. I find your demeanor quite offensive, bothersome and nauseating. Please do not demand any more answers from me, to your foolish questions which I (and others!) have have already answered!
Sudarsana Prabhu, the SINCERITY OF MY PURPOSE is to get the answer of your misguided writings ; ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”, to which you have not proven at all from the revealed scripture thus far with the answer to my simple question addressing to what you believe to have said in your comments.
Whatever references you and Balarama Prabhu quoted from the Sastras do not correspond at all to your misguided writing which has created this very unpleasant situation you happen to find yourself in. This misguided writing indeed has triggered your false ego to write such nasty writing about me for which I do not mind at all knowing that you do not have the answer and thus you find offensive and write defensive when I ask all these questions out of your comments that which do not address what you stated in your misguided writing.
As you said ; ” Please do not demand any more answers from me, to your foolish questions which I (and others!) have have already answered! ”
Should there was / or is the answer, you simply have repeated it from your writing or Balarama Prabhu’s writing or Mahesh Prabhu’s writing or from the Scripture explaining to support your misguided writing ;
” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
Therefore, I end my discussion on your misguided writing because you do not have the answer.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
For the benefit of those who have ‘sincerity of purpose’ and are not complete fools…….
Britannica Sanskrit TRANSLATION of MAYA is………… ‘ILLUSION’.
Wikipedia Sanskrit TRANSLATION of MAYA is…………. ‘ILLUSION’.
‘MAHA’ and ‘YOGA’ are prefixes to describe………… ‘WHAT KIND OF ‘ILLUSION’
To say that there is no “ILLUSION’ in the Spiritual World is to say that there is NO ‘YOGAMAYA’ in the Spiritual World!
A ‘three year old’ reading Krishna book could understand this, it is not that complicated!
So where is the ”CONCOCTED WRITING?” Where is the “CONTRADICTION?”.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana Das
Thank you Sudarsana Prabhu,
Yes it is ‘simple for the simple-minded’ unless you try to screw something out of it which is not there.
Dictionary defines Illusion as ‘something that deceives’ and Bewilder as ‘to confuse or puzzle’.
These 2 words Illusion & Bewilder are mostly interchangeable. In the material world governed by Mahamaya, the illusion or bewilderment is that the conditioned jiva forgets their eternal identity. In the spiritual world governed by Yogamaya, the illusion or bewilderment simply causes the liberated jiva to forget that Krsna is GOD so the various lilas may be enacted.
QUOTING SRILA PRABHUPADA>>>
Bhaktivedanta Purport to SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45, (The Appearance of Lord Varaha), Srila Prabhupada states >>>
“Visvam samastam is very significant here. There are the material world and spiritual world. The sages pray:
‘BOTH worlds are BEWILDERED by your different energies. Those who are in the SPIRITUAL WORLD are absorbed in Your loving service, FORGETTING THEMSELVES AND YOU ALSO, and those who are in the material world are absorbed in material sense gratification and therefore also forget You. No one can know You because You are unlimited’…….” (My emphasis added!)
Unfortunately the correspondent, Amar Puri seems to think we are saying that the bewilderment governed by Yogamaya for the pleasure of Krsna and His liberated parts & parcels, is the same as the Mahamaya covering the conditioned souls. Nothing could be further from the truth, because that’s the DIFFERENCE between the material & spiritual worlds.
I also see Amar Puri’s statement in his comment to you, 15th July as rather offensive in the context of this discussion. >>>
“What is your motive to make up such writings which CONTRADICT the Sastras from which you are quoting as reference when there is no such reference to be found in your quoted references from the Scripture to support your believe?”
My very last words on this and many times here I feel like saying हरे कृष्ण and goodbye, just as LW prabhu has done.
Yhs streetsweeper,
Balaram das.
Yes, Prabhu. Unfortunately the most deluded persons are the the most envious and venomous. Such deluded individuals want to shut down any discussion (like has happened everywhere else!) and cause people to LEAVE. This is what the agents of Kali, have in mind.
Thank you for your input.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Dear Readers,
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Putting forth individual thoughts of perception in the interpretation without the support from the authoritative sources of the knowledge from the Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru definately create ILLUSION – DECEPTION. That is what Balaram das Prabhu describes when and what he says in his comments such as ; ” These 2 words Illusion & Bewilder are mostly interchangeable.”
These two words ( Illusion & Bewilder ) indeed have different meaning altogether which Srila Prabhupada has used it to describe in the Material world and the Spiritual world separately.
NO where in Srila Prabhupada’s writing is found such interchangeable of these two words as Balaram Prabhu has said in his comment which is misleading again and again and again.
As for the SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45, quoted as reference, it has already been dealt with in my comments in this thread to which Balaram Prabhu has never addressed to the questions which I put up to him.
Where are we going with this type of back and forth discussion which creates unnecessary FRUSTRATION and as a result of it OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE approach is perceived and conceived to accuse to the people involved in this discussion.
This is what it is taking place now here instead of addressing the real concern of the issue of the topic under discussion for the clarification.
If my comments are OFFENSIVE which is not my intend and purpose at all , I ask for forgiveness from the people feeling OFFENSIVE.
OM TAT SAT.
Sudarsana Prabhu, the SINCERITY OF MY PURPOSE is to get the answer of your misguided writings ; ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”, to which you have not proven at all from the revealed scripture thus far with the answer to my simple question addressing to what you believe to have said in your comments.
Whatever references you and Balarama Prabhu quoted from the Sastras do not correspond at all to your misguided writing which has created this very unpleasant situation you happen to find yourself in. This misguided writing indeed has triggered your false ego to write such nasty writing about me for which I do not mind at all knowing that you do not have the answer and thus you find offensive and write defensive when I ask all these questions out of your comments that which do not address what you stated in your misguided writing.
As you said ; ” Please do not demand any more answers from me, to your foolish questions which I (and others!) have have already answered! ”
Should there was / or is the answer, you simply have repeated it from your writing or Balarama Prabhu’s writing or Mahesh Prabhu’s writing or from the Scripture explaining to support your misguided writing ;
” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”,
Therefore, I end my discussion on your misguided writing because you do not have the answer.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The following explains very clearly how the IMPERSONALIST sages are also considered as covered under the spell of Mahamaya not Yogamaya.
Amar Puri says:
11. July 2016 at 8:26 pm
YOGAMAYA and Mahamaya
Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. So great sages who are impersonalists are also under the spell of mahamaya, because a conditioned soul in the material world wants to improve his material position as exalted as possible, and the concept of becoming one with the Supreme Lord is the greatest illusion for them. Because it is a fact that nobody can be equal or greater than the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such, anyone desiring to become one with the Supreme means that he is still in the trap of maya. On the other hand, a humble devotee who may not be a great sage, but simply by his implicit acceptance of the Lotus Feet of the Lord as the goal of his life means that he is under the protection of yogamaya.
prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni / guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā / kartāham iti manyate
“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27) Within conditioned life, no one has freedom, but because one is bewildered, being subject to the rule of mahāmāyā, one foolishly thinks himself independent (ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]). But when the conditioned soul becomes liberated by executing devotional service, he is given a greater and greater chance to relish a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in different transcendental statuses, such as dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vātsalya-rasa and mādhurya-rasa.
In the material world the conditioned soul thinks of himself as a product of tri-guṇa, (Satto, Rajo and Tamo Guna ) the three modes of material nature. This is the bodily conception of life. Because of associating with the three guṇas of the material potency, everyone identifies himself with his body.
1) the action of MAHAMAYA is to keep the CONDITIONED soul in MATERIAL world by means of bewilder/illusion potency.
2) the action of YOGAMAYA is for the pastime of devotees with Krsna so that they FORGET that Krsna is God and THEREFORE they can play pastime with Krsna in His lila as an ORDINARY person. If the devotees did NOT forget Krsna is God then there can NOT be LOVING mellows (Rasa) to ENJOY.
3) BOTH Yogamaya and AND Mahamaya are Krsna’s POWERFUL energies they create illusion/bewilder the souls. MAHAMAYA keeps the souls in this material world by illusion/bewilder potency. YOGAMAYA creates a situation that devotees ENJOY the pastime(LILA) in their particular loving mellows by illusion/bewilder means. Illusion/bewilder are sometimes used INTERCHANGEABLE:
SB 10.13.15 P The Stealing of the Boys and Calves by Brahma
Brahma wanted to take away Krsna’s associates, but instead he took away some other boys and calves. Ravana wanted to take away Sita, but that was impossible, and instead he took away a maya Sita. Similarly, Brahma took away mayarbhakah: boys manifested by Krsna’s maya. Brahma could show some extraordinary opulence to the mayarbhakah; but he could not show any extraordinary potency to Krsna’s associates. That he would see in the very near future. Mayarbhakasya isituh. THIS BEWILDERMENT, THIS MAYA, WAS CAUSED BY THE SUPREME CONTROLLER, PRABHAVATAH–THE ALL-POTENT SUPREME PERSON, KRSNA–AND WE SHALL SEE THE RESULT. ANYONE MATERIALLY BORN IS SUBJECT TO BEWILDERMENT. THIS PASTIME IS THEREFORE CALLED BRAHMA-VIMOHANA-LILA, THE PASTIME OF BEWILDERING BRAHMA. Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam (Bg. 7.13). Materially born persons cannot fully understand Krsna. Even the demigods cannot understand Him (muhyanti yat surayah). Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye (Bhag. 1.1.1). Everyone, from Brahma down to the small insect, must take lessons from Krsna.
Antya 1.162 T Srila Rupa Gosvami’ s Second Meeting With the Lord
sad-vamsatas tava janih purusottamasya
panau sthitir muralike saralasi jatya
kasmat tvaya sakhi guror visama grhita
gopangana-gana-vimohana-man tra-diksa
SYNONYMS
sat-vamsatah–very respectable families; tava–your; janih–birth; purusottamasya–of Lord Sri Krsna; panau–in the hands; sthitih–residence; muralike–O good flute; sarala–simple; asi–you are; jatya–by birth; kasmat–why; tvaya–by you; sakhi–O my dear friend; guroh–from the spiritual master; visama–dangerous; grhita–taken; GOPA-ANGANA-GANA-VIMOHANA–FOR BEWILDERING THE GROUPS OF THE GOPIS; mantra-diksa–initiation in the mantra.
690411rc.ny Conversations
“Oh, these boys playing with Krsna, they have attained this position, oh, after, I mean to say, accumulating many, many births pious activities.” Krta-punya punjah. Just like a man collects dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, dollar, and one time he amasses money, say, millions of dollars. Similarly, Sukadeva Gosvami is describing that these boys who are playing with Krsna, they have amassed their pious activities for millions and billions of births. Because with whom they are playing? They’re playing, ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya… Satam. The stalwart philosophers who are after brahma-sukha, brahmananda. So that brahmananda is here, Krsna. And dasyam gatanam para daivatena. And for the devotees, He is the Supreme Lord. And mayasritanam nara-darakena. Those who are covered in maya, for them He is ordinary human boy. And with Him these boys are playing. They have amassed pious activi-ties of many, many millions of births. Otherwise it was not possible. So they do not know Krsna is God. They do not know. But their affection for Krsna is so great and nice that it is inexplicable. They were playing, Krsna is defeated. Oh, Krsna has to take the friend on His shoulder. Yes, because He was defeated. So Krsna is accepting, “Yes, come on My shoulder.” So this Krsna-lila, that also one who tries to understand and understands, they are also like those boys who have amassed pious activities of many, many births. It is not ordinary thing. Yes. And mayasritanam nara darakena. Those who are under the clutches of maya, they will think these Krsna’s pastimes, “What is this? What is this? Krsna conscious persons, they are enjoying about Krsna’s going to the field with some cows?” Yes. Just like one of our students, that Ranacora. He asked me, “Swamiji, how is that God has become a cowherd boy?” Yes. Because ordinary people, they are thinking God must be so great, so great, great, that they cannot conceive. And that great personality, how He becomes a cowherd boy playing with cowherd boys? Yes. BRAHMA ALSO BECAME ASTONISHED, AND THEREFORE HE CAME TO CHECK “WHETHER HE IS MY LORD OR NOT?” (LAUGHTER) YES. BEWILDERED. MUHYANTI YATRA SURAYAH. THE BHAGAVATA SAYS THEREFORE, EVEN THE GREAT PERSONALITIES LIKE BRAHMA, THEY ARE ALSO BEWILDERED TO UNDERSTAND THE PERSONALITY. He, Brahma also heard that at Vrndavana Krsna has appeared and He is acting as a cowherd boy. He was also astonished. “Oh, my Lord? He has become a cowherd boy?” So he came to check. He, I mean to say, took away all the cowherd boys and cows and everything. And after a few seconds he came, he said Krsna is playing in the same way. And although the, I mean, stolen cowherd boys and cows they, by the, I mean to say, energy of maya, by influence of Brahma, they were kept in a secret cave. They were sleeping. But Krsna is playing. That means He has manifested again with the cowherd boys and cows. Then he was convinced, “Yes, He is my Lord.” Then Brahma-stava is there. Ananda cinmaya rasa pratibhavitabhis tabhirya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih. So Krsna can expand in many, many thousand times. What Brahma will do by stealing His… No, that is not possible. So Brahma was also convinced. These things you’ll find in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Brahma-vimohana. Even Brahma is bewildered, what to speak of ordinary men like us. So Krsna-lila, to understand… There is no need of understanding. Simply you love Krsna, then the whole business finished. Just like if you touch fire, if you understand it or not understand it, the warmness is there. Similarly, either you understand Krsna or do not understand Krsna, it doesn’t matter. Simply if you love Krsna, then your life is perfect. That’s all.
SB 2.7.30 P Scheduled Incarnations with Specific Functions
One day Lord Krsna as the naughty child disturbed His mother Yasoda, and she began to tie up the child with ropes just to punish Him. But no matter how much rope she used, she found it always insufficient. Thus she became fatigued, but in the meantime the Lord opened His mouth, and the affectionate mother saw within the mouth of her son all the universes situated together. The mother was astonished, but out of her deep affection for Krsna she thought that the Almighty Godhead Narayana had kindly looked after her son just to protect Him from all the continuous calamities happening to Him. BECAUSE OF HER DEEP AFFECTION FOR KRSNA, SHE COULD NEVER THINK THAT HER VERY SON WAS NARAYANA, THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD HIMSELF. THAT IS THE ACTION OF YOGAMAYA, THE INTERNAL POTENCY OF THE SUPREME LORD, WHICH ACTS TO PERFECT ALL THE PASTIMES OF THE LORD WITH HIS DIFFERENT TYPES OF DEVOTEES. Who could play such wonders without being God?
SB 10.7.35-36 The Killing of the Demon Trnavarta
O King Pariksit, when the child Krsna was almost finished drinking His mother’s milk and mother Yasoda was touching Him and looking at His beautiful, brilliantly smiling face, the baby yawned, and mother Yasoda saw in His mouth the whole sky, the higher planetary system and the earth, the luminaries in all directions, the sun, the moon, fire, air, the seas, islands, mountains, rivers, forests, and all kinds of living entities, moving and nonmoving.
PURPORT
BY THE ARRANGEMENT OF YOGAMAYA, KRSNA’S PASTIMES WITH MOTHER YASODA WERE ALL REGARDED AS ORDINARY. SO HERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR KRSNA TO SHOW HIS MOTHER THAT THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS SITUATED WITHIN HIM. In His small form, Krsna was kind enough to show His mother the virat-rupa, the universal form, so that she could enjoy seeing what kind of child she had on her lap. The rivers have been mentioned here as the daughters of the mountains (nagams tad-duhitrh). It is the flowing of the rivers that makes big forests possible. There are living entities everywhere, some of them moving and some of them not moving. No place is vacant. This is a special feature of God’s creation.
SB 10.8.40 P Lord Krsna Shows the Universal Form Within His Mouth
When mother Yasoda saw this wonderful manifestation within the mouth of her child, she began to argue within herself about whether it was a dream. Then she considered, “I am not dreaming, because my eyes are open. I am actually seeing what is happening. I am not sleeping, nor am I dreaming. Then maybe this is an illusion created by devamaya. But that is also not possible. What business would the demigods have showing such things to me? I am an insignificant woman with no connection with the demigods. Why should they take the trouble to put me into devamaya? That also is not possible.” Then mother Yasoda considered whether the vision might be due to bewilderment: “I am fit in health; I am not diseased. Why should there be any bewilderment? It is not possible that my brain is deranged, since I am ordinarily quite fit to think. Then this vision must be due to some mystic power of my son, as predicted by Gargamuni.” Thus she finally concluded that the vision was due to her son’s activities, and nothing else.
Note: action of YOGAMAYA so that mother Yasoda FORGETS Krsna is God and therefore she can think Krsna is her son. This creates LOVING(PREMA) MELLOW of Vatsalya rasa(parental affection for Krsna).
700704LE.SF Lectures
So Krsna, He is born of a ksatriya father. He is not born, but He appeared as the son. God is never born. Unborn. Therefore the Mayavadi philosophers, they mistake to know Krsna. They think that Krsna is born, then how He can be God? But actually, Krsna was not born from the womb of His mother. He appeared in four hands before His mother, and the mother was afraid that “My brother Kamsa, was awaiting to kill God, and now God is here in four hands. Immediately he’ll kill.” THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED. Although Krsna playing child just like a common child, at the same time showing that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He was eating clay. Some friends complained to mother Yasoda that, “You gave Him nice foodstuff, and He is eating clay.” So mother called Him: “Oh, Krsna, You are eating clay?” Krsna said, “No, mother. They’re all liars.” (laughter) “Oh, Your elder brother Balarama is also saying.” “Oh, He is angry upon Me. He is angry upon Me; therefore He is also speaking lie.” Then the boys still stressed, “No, mother. He has eaten clay. We have seen.” So mother said, “All right. Open Your mouth. I’ll see.” So Krsna opened His mouth, and she saw the whole material cosmic manifestation. Not only Yasoda, thousands of Yasoda and thousands of planets, sun, moons, and everything saw. Mother’s thought, “Must be something jugglery. All right. Forget. Don’t do it again.” (laughter)
This is Krsna, that He is playing the part of a perfect child. Mother Yasoda ordering, “Open Your mouth. I want to see.” “Yes, mother. Just see.” And when she saw His mouth, oh, the mother couldn’t adjust(?). That is God, that He is, by being obliged by the devotee, He is playing the part of a child, at the same time maintaining His supremacy as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is Krsna. Not that by mystic power one becomes God. No. God is God always. When on the lap of His mother He is God. And when His mother… On the lap of His mother, Putana came to kill Him. So Krsna sucked her breast and life also, but gave him (her) the position of mother because Krsna is so good that He did not take the bad side. Krsna, how can He be envious? He’s the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Everyone is His part and parcel; therefore He cannot be envious to anyone. He is always kind of everyone. So this incident, that Krsna… Putana came to kill Him by smearing poison on her breast. She thought that “The child will suck my breast and immediately die.” The child sucked the breast as well as her life. But Krsna thought that “This demon, although came to Me with a purpose to kill Me, but I have been used as her child, and she has become My mother, so she must get the position of My mother.” This is Krsna’s kindness.
SB 10 Summary Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead
Chapter Twelve contains forty-four verses, describing Krsna’s pastimes with the cowherd boys in the forest and the killing of the demon named Aghasura. Chapter Thirteen contains sixty-four verses, describing how Brahma stole Krsna’s calves and His friends, the cowherd boys. Krsna expanded His pastimes for one year, representing Himself as the calves and boys in forms exactly like their own. IN THIS WAY HE BEWILDERED BRAHMA, WHO AT LAST SURRENDERED WHEN HIS ILLUSION WAS OVER. The Fourteenth Chapter contains sixty-one verses. In this chapter, Brahma offers prayers to Krsna after fully understanding Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Fifteenth Chapter contains fifty-two verses. This chapter describes how Krsna entered Talavana Forest with Balarama, how Balarama killed Dhenukasura, and how Krsna protected the cowherd boys and cows from the poisonous effects of Kaliya.
SB 10.13 Summary The Stealing of the Boys and Calves by Brahma
This chapter describes Lord Brahma’s attempt to take away the calves and cowherd boys, AND IT ALSO DESCRIBES THE BEWILDERMENT OF LORD BRAHMA AND FINALLY THE CLEARANCE OF HIS ILLUSION.
SB 10.13 Summary The Stealing of the Boys and Calves by Brahma
When one full year had passed, Brahma returned and saw that Krsna was still engaged as usual with His friends and the calves and cows. Then Krsna exhibited all the calves and cowherd boys as four-armed forms of Narayana. Brahma could then understand Krsna’s potency, and he was astonished by the pastimes of Krsna, his worshipable Lord. KRSNA, HOWEVER, BESTOWED HIS CAUSELESS MERCY UPON BRAHMA AND RELEASED HIM FROM ILLUSION. Thus Brahma began to offer prayers to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Note: action of Mahamaya to create ILLUSION of REALITY TO BEWILDER THE THE MIND OF CONDITIONED SOUL hence we see so many species of life forms in material world:
TLC 23 Why Study the Vedanta-sutra?
Therefore Srila Vyasadeva gives the reader a chance to gradually develop in spiritual realization before actually relishing the essence of the pastimes of the Lord. Thus Vyasadeva purposefully invokes the gayatri mantra: dhimahi. This gayatri mantra is especially meant for spiritually advanced people. When one attains success in chanting gayatri mantra, he can enter into the transcendental position of the Lord. First, however, one must acquire the brahminical qualities and become perfectly situated in the mode of goodness in order to chant the gayatri mantra successfully. From that point one can begin to transcendentally realize the Lord, His name, His fame, His qualities, etc. Srimad-Bhagavatam is a narration dealing with the svarupa (form) of the Lord, which is manifested by His internal potency. This potency is distinguished from the external potency, which has manifested the cosmic world within our experience. Srila Vyasadeva makes a clear distinction between the internal and external potencies in the very first verse of the First Chapter of Srimad-Bhagavatam. In that verse he says that the internal potency is factual reality, whereas the external manifested energy in the form of material existence is temporary and illusory, no more real than a mirage in the desert. Water may appear present in a mirage, but real water is somewhere else. Similarly, the manifested cosmic creation appears to be reality, but it is simply a reflection of the true reality which exists in the spiritual world. In the spiritual world there are no mirages. Absolute Truth is there; it is not here in the material world. Here, everything is relative truth; one truth seems to depend upon another. THIS COSMIC CREATION RESULTS FROM AN INTERACTION OF THE THREE MODES OF MATERIAL NATURE. THE TEMPORARY MANIFESTATIONS ARE SO CREATED AS TO PRESENT AN ILLUSION OF REALITY TO THE BEWILDERED MIND OF THE CONDITIONED SOUL. THUS THERE APPEAR TO BE SO MANY SPECIES OF LIFE, INCLUDING THE HIGHER DEMIGODS LIKE BRAHMA, INDRA, CANDRA, ETC. In fact there is no reality in the manifested world, but there appears to be reality because the true reality exists in the spiritual world, where the Personality of Godhead eternally abides with His transcendental paraphernalia.
Bg 6.11-12 P Sankhya-yoga
Therefore, in the Brhan-naradiya Purana it is said that in the Kali-yuga (the present yuga or age) when people in general are short-lived, slow in spiritual realization and always disturbed by various anxieties, the best means of spiritual realization is chanting the holy name of the Lord.
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.”
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“We request you to chant HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE, and your life will be sublime.”
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KB 82 Lord Krsna and Balarama Meet the Inhabitants of Vrndavana
The WHOLE philosophy is considered on the basis of inconceivable, SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.
Note: DEPENDING on the USAGE we can see HOW Srila Prabhupada has used the term illusion/bewilder.
One other point is that there are two terms MOHITA and VIMOHITA however, BOTH can mean illusion and bewilder. But – one has to see HOW AND WHERE they can be APPLIED:
SB 6.3.25 S Yamaraja Instructs His Messengers
… other ten; ayam–this; devya–by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; VIMOHITA-matih–whose intelligence is BEWILDERED; bata–indeed; mayaya–by the illusory energy; alam–greatly; trayyam…
SB 7.5.11 S Prahlada Maharaja, the Saintly Son of Hiranyakasipu
… life; pumsam–of persons; yat–of whom; mayaya–by the external energy; krtah–created; VIMOHITA–BEWILDERED; dhiyam–of those whose intelligence; drstah–practically experienced; tasmai–unto Him; bhagavate–the Supreme …
SB 2.6.37 S Purusa-sukta Confirmed
… uta–else; apare–others; surah–demigods; tat–by His; mayaya–by the illusory energy; MOHITA–BEWILDERED; buddhayah–with such intelligence; tu–but; idam–this; vinirmitam–what is created; ca–also;…
SB 4.17.36 S Maharaja Prthu Becomes Angry at the Earth
… sarga–which brings forth creation; mayaya–by Your energy; na–never; jnayate–are understood; MOHITA–BEWILDERED; citta–whose minds; vartmabhih–way; tebhyah–unto them; namah–obeisances; vira-yasah-karebhyah–who …
SB 4.27.21 S Attack by Candavega on the City of King Puranjana: the Character of Kalakanya
… –she proposed; brhat-vratam–avowed brahmacari; mam–unto me; tu–then; janati–knowing; kama-MOHITA–being ILLUSIONED by lust.
SB 6.1.41 P The History of the Life of Ajamila
… not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.” Because unintelligent agnostics are MOHITA, ILLUSIONED by the three modes of material nature, they cannot understand that Narayana, Krsna, is …
SB 6.18.60 S Diti Vows to Kill King Indra
… –water; adhauta–not washed; anghrih–her feet; susvapa–went to sleep; vidhi–by fate; MOHITA–BEWILDERED.
Note: there is another point that is worth mentioning here. The prefix “vi” is stressed to mean SPECIFIC.
So if you go to the VIMOHITA and mohita the word “VI”mohita carries an ADDED stress to the meaning of bewilder/illusion.
SB 4.25.62 P The Descriptions of the Characteristics of King Puranjana
The word vipralabdhah is very significant in this verse. VI MEANS “SPECIFICALLY,” and pralabdha means “obtained.” Just to satisfy his desires, the King got the Queen, and thus he became cheated by material existence. Although he was not willing to do so, he remained a pet animal under the control of material intelligence. Just as a pet monkey dances according to the desires of its master, the King danced according to the desires of the Queen. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.5.2) it is said, mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh: if one associates with a saintly person, a devotee, one’s path of liberation becomes clear. But if one associates with a woman or with a person who is too much addicted to a woman, his path of bondage becomes completely clear.
690428SB.BOS Lectures
So Rsabhadeva says, “My dear boys,” mahat-sevam dvaram ahur VIMUKTEH, “If you at all, if you are at all desirous or eager to attain that perfectional stage of life, then the path is mahat-seva. You associate or you serve great personalities who are devotees of the Lord.” Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh. Mahat means great soul. Who is great soul? A great soul is a great devotee of the Lord. That is great soul who has captured the Supreme Soul. He’s great soul. We are… We are very small. Our identity, magnitude, as stated in the Vedic literature, it is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. It is very small. You cannot even imagine. So we are very small, but we can become the greatest, almost as good as God, if we engage ourself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. You have got best example. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He, he’s worshiped as good as God because he dedicated everything for God. Similarly, if you also dedicate your life, your intelligence, your money… Pranair arthair dhiya vaca. By four things you can attain greatness, almost greatness like God. How? By engaging your life, your wealth, pranair arthair dhiya, your intelligence… If you have no money, then you can apply your intelligence. If you have no intelligence, you can simply carry the words of God. In that way you can achieve the greatest perfection of life. If somebody has money, all right, he can spend for spreading this Krsna consciousness movement. If he has no money, he can give his intelligence, how we can push on this Krsna consciousness movement. If he has no intelligence, simply carry this word and speak to the people, “My dear friend, you simply chant Hare Krsna.” You see? So any way you can engage yourself in Krsna consciousness, that is called mahat-seva, service of the Supreme, or service of the Supersoul. Mahat-sevam dvaram. If you accept this way of life, then your spiritual life will be open. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur VIMUKTEH.
VIMUKTEH MEANS… VIMUKTI. MUKTI MEANS LIBERATION, AND, ADDING THE WORD, VI… VI MEANS SPECIFICALLY LIBERATION. THERE ARE FIVE KINDS OF LIBERATION. ONE LIBERATION IS TO MERGE INTO THE SUPREME. ANOTHER LIBERATION IS TO LIVE WITH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IN THE SAME PLANET. ANOTHER LIBERATION IS TO ACHIEVE THE STATUS QUO OF LIFE AS GOOD AS GOD. SARUPYA, SAYUJYA, SALOKYA, SAMIPYA. You can associate yourself with God. That is another liberation. In this way, there are five kinds of liberation. Generally the Mayavadi philosophers, they want to merge into the existence of God. That also, one of the recommended process of liberation. But so far we are concerned, we don’t want even to merge into the existence of God, but we want to become associated with God in friendship, in love, in servitude, in so many ways. We want to keep our existence, individual existence, and associate with God. That is the Vaisnava philosophy.
So mahat-sevam dvaram, if you associate with great souls… Our Krsna consciousness movement is to produce some great souls. If people get opportunity to associate with great souls, then automatically his path of liberation will be open. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh. And tamo-dvaram yositam sangi-sangam. And if you associate with persons who are simply interested in sense gratification, then you must know that your door for going into the darkest region of ignorance is open. Two doors: one door to the path of liberation, and one door to the path of darkest region of ignorance. That means material existence. You know, in the material existence… Just like we are also living entities, and the cockroaches are also living entities. Do you know where they are living? Within the commode there are many germs, many worms, they are also living entities. They’re stool. There are worms in the stool. They’re also living entities. So we can fall down up to that point even. Don’t think that because we have got this beautiful body, nice situation, this is guarantee of any falldown. No. We can fall down any moment, in any species of life. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You should know it. And utilize this opportunity for opening the door of liberation. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh. And in order to reach to that door of liberation, you have to associate with persons who are devotees of Lord, mahat-seva. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes tamo-dvaram yositam sangi-sangam. Yositam. If I simply avoid, myself, the process of sense gratification, but if I associate with persons who are addicted to sense gratification, then that is also very dangerous. That is also very dangerous, because sangat sanjayate kamah–my desires and my propensities will develop according to the association I make. A man is known by his company.
Hare Krsna Mahesh Raja prabhu,
Many thanks for your input and sastric quotes, confirming how Yogamaya enacts her potency in the spiritual world for the pleasure of Sri Krsna’s various lilas. Your quote from Srila Prabhupada’s lecture 700704LE.SF is self explanatory, especially Prabhupada’s last sentence ‘Therefore she was, by Yogamaya, she was ALWAYS COVERED’ >>>
“THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED.”
Unfortunately the correspondent Amar Puri sees something different, so probably better to end this discussion before it deteriorates any further into an argument.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
The covering of Mother Jashoda by momentarily “bewilderment” is specially arranged by Krsna,so,as to enhance the pastime of Vatsalya lila,in apparent “disruption”. This pastime is for the enjoyment of Krsna,to show that even tho Mother Jashoda is an eternal associate in Vatsalya lila, the temporary manifestation of owe and reverential mood,does not permanently hamper her base rasa with Krsna,as his Mother. This pastime is planed by Krsna directly. It is for his personal ecstasy.
Note: Regards what we have HERE in material world as LOVING MELLOWS (Rasas) there is some difference in Goloka – over there there is no baby Krsna: KRSNA CHILDHOOD PASTIMES EXHIBITED IN THE MATERIAL UNIVERSES:
71-08-31. Letter: Ekayani
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated 20th August, 1971 and have noted the contents. In spite of all your faults you will go to Vaikuntha because you are a great devotee. Don’t create some abnormal condition. Please go back to your husband and live peacefully and execute Krishna Consciousness together. He will also not take sannyasa order out of frustration. You are an intelligent girl and an advanced student. You should know that our main business is Krishna Consciousness. So fighting between husband and wife is not to be taken very seriously. So if you have any respect for me, I request you not to quarrel with your husband. Live peacefully, chant Hare Krishna and try to serve the cause as best as possible. I am very glad that your mother is also taking interest in Krishna Consciousness. That is very good. As you have to leave Boston very soon it is better that you go immediately to N.Y. and live peacefully with your husband. That is my order. I hope you will not disobey me.
So far your questions: Any tune can be used. When it is in relationship with Krishna, that makes it bonafide; Some precautionary measure should be taken to keep bugs from the altar and Deity. You cannot allow them to disturb the Deity. Best is that you try and catch them and throw them out rather than kill them but if killing them is the only alternative, what can be done?; Tulasi plants are liberated souls who want to serve Krishna in that way. Anyone who even desires to serve Krishna is liberated, what to speak of one who is actually engaged in devotional service; expansion means remains in Goloka Vrindaban and at the same time expands all over the universe. Krishna can expand, so his devotee can also expand; Vallabhacaryas teachings are bonafide. This difference of opinion is there always. Just like you differ with your husband, but that doesn’t mean that you and your husband are not devotees; IN THE SPIRITUAL SKY THERE IS NO BIRTH, SO WHERE IS THE QUESTION OF BABY? KRISHNA IS THERE ETERNALLY AS KISORA, A 16 YEAR OLD YOUTH. HIS CHILDHOOD PASTIMES EXHIBITED IN THE MATERIAL UNIVERSES. Best thing is if you chant Hare Krishna and go to Krishna Loka and find out the answers to all these questions yourself.
Note: the following will give us a picture of what rasas(loving mellows) ARE and some idea of the REVIVING our PARTICULAR loving mellow ( be it … dasya, sakhya, vatsalya OR madhurya) that we ALREADY HAVE with Krsna:
SB 7.9.54 Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
My dear Prahlada, you are very fortunate. Please know from Me that those who are very wise and highly elevated try to please Me in all different modes of mellows, for I am the only person who can fulfill all the desires of everyone.
PURPORT
The words dhirah sarva-bhavena do not mean “in whichever way you like.” BHAVA IS THE PRELIMINARY CONDITION OF LOVE OF GODHEAD.
athasaktis tato bhavas
tatah premabhyudancati
sadhakanam ayam premnah
pradurbhave bhavet kramah
(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.4.16)
THE BHAVA STAGE IS THE FINAL DIVISION BEFORE ONE REACHES LOVE OF GODHEAD. The word sarva-bhava means that one can love the Supreme Personality of Godhead in different transcendental modes of mellows, beginning with dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. IN THE SANTA STAGE, ONE IS ON THE BORDER OF LOVING SERVICE TO THE LORD. PURE LOVE OF GODHEAD BEGINS FROM DASYA and DEVELOPS TO SAKHYA, VATSALYA AND THEN MADHURYA. Still, in any of these five mellows one can render loving service to the Supreme Lord. Since our main business is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one can render service from any of the above-mentioned platforms of love.
681113LE.LA Lectures
Prabhupada: Dasya-rasa. Dasya-rasa, servitude. There are different rasas, mellows of relationship with Krsna. Santa, dasya… Just like Vrndavana-bhumi or the trees, the plants, they are serving Krsna silently. And the cows and servants, they are offering superior service. The friends, they are offering service as friend. The gopis, they are… Gopis or the motherly gopis, just like Yasoda and ladies, offer their, loving Krsna as son, and the younger girls, they’re loving Krsna as husband, as lover. So in this way in Vrndavana there are different transcendental mellows of loving affairs. So the cows are on the santa, dasya-rasa, giving service, just like master and servant. They are situated in this transcendental humor. But they’re all one with Krsna. Nobody is inferior than Krsna, but the relationship is exchange of loving service. That’s all.
Nandarani: Is our rasa with Krsna already established? I mean, is it eternal? Or do we, can we attain…
Prabhupada: No. IT IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED. YOU HAVE GOT ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP. WHEN YOU BECOME LIBERATED, YOU REALIZE THAT YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS WITH KRSNA LIKE THIS. YOU’LL DEVELOP THAT TASTE, WHETHER IN SANTA-RASA OR DASYA-RASA OR MADHURYA-RASA OR VATSALYA-RASA. BUT THAT IS NOT TO BE IMITATED AT THE PRESENT MOMENT. WHEN WE ARE ACTUALLY LIBERATED. TO COME TO THAT STAGE, THE ROUTINE WORK, REGULATIVE WORK, SHOULD BE FOLLOWED: CHANTING, HEARING, WORSHIPING, FOLLOWING THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES. IN THIS WAY, GRADUALLY, AS WE ARE PURIFIED, WE COME TO THE PURE CONSCIOUSNESS, KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN AT ONCE WE UNDERSTAND, “MY RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS LIKE THIS.” AND YOU ARE TRANSFERRED TO THE KRSNALOKA IN THAT HUMOR.
Dayananda: We could also have a passive relationship with Krsna, like a tree?
Prabhupada: Yes. That will be revealed, how we are related with Krsna. Every relationship is as good as the other. Just like in this material world, everyone’s position, he thinks it is very nice. Similarly, in the spiritual, what to speak, they are all equal, but still, one is apprec…, one’s aptitude is that “I want to love Krsna in this way.” Yes. So he’s there in that way. There must be variety. If there is rasa-lila, there must be nice trees, nice field, nice cows, nice Yamuna river. Otherwise how it is, simply if the gopis and Krsnas are there, if the other things are not there? The background must be there. So everything is spiritual. Background is also spiritual. That is creation of Krsna. Eko bahu-syama. Just like a painter paints a picture, he makes a nice background. Similarly, Krsna wants to enjoy, so He has created us in different varieties to supply His pleasure potency.
Prabhupada: Nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya. So the ultimate goal of the spiritual master is that he wants to be transferred to the planet of Krsna, where he wants to associate with the gopis to help them to serve Krsna. Some, some of them are, some of the devotees, spiritual master, they are thinking of becoming assistants to the gopis, some of them are thinking to be assistants to the cowherds boy, some of them are thinking to be assistant to mother Yasoda or Nanda, and some of them are thinking to the servants of God. Or some of them are thinking how to become a flower, tree, a fruit tree or a calf or a cow in Vrndavana. There are five kinds of mellows: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. The… Everything is there spiritual. That I shall describe next. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu. So in the spiritual sky, the land is spiritual, the tree is spiritual, the fruit is spiritual, the flower if spiritual, the water is spiritual, the servant is spiritual, the friend is spiritual, the Lord is spiritual and His associates are spiritual. Everything. Therefore oneness, Absolute Truth, everything absolute. Although there are varieties, these varieties, the spiritual varieties, are simply reflection in this material world. Just like there is a tree on the bank of a river. That is reflected in the water. But reflected how? The top has gone down. The topmost thing has gone down. So this material world is the reflection of the spiritual world–but perverted reflection. In the spiritual world, there is love between Radha and Krsna. Krsna is always young. Nava-yauvanam ca. And Radharani is also always young. Pleasure potency of Krsna. We worship: sri-radhika-madhavayor apara. Madhava. Jaya jaya Radha-Madhava. We worship not Krsna alone–with His eternal consort, Srimati Radharani. So there is eternal love between Radharani and Krsna. Therefore in the Vedanta-sutra, it is said, janmady asya yatah. This Absolute Truth means wherefrom everything comes, emanates. Just like here we find love between mother and son, love between wife and husband, love between master and servant, love between friends and friends, love between master and the dog or the cat or the cow. Same thing. These are only reflection of the spiritual world. THE SAME THING IS THERE. KRSNA IS ALSO GOOD LOVER OF THE ANIMALS, CALVES AND COWS. As we love here dogs and cats, Krsna loves there cows and calves. You have seen the picture of Krsna. So the propensity to love even an animal is there. Otherwise how it can be reflected here? This is simply shadow reflection. If, in the reality, there is nothing like that, then how it can be reflected here? So everything is there. Therefore, that mellow, to understand, you have to practice. Here we have got frustration. Here we love. A man loves a woman or woman loves a man. But there is frustration. After some time, they are separated, they divorce, because it is perverted reflection. There is no real love in this material world. It is simply lust. Real love is in the spiritual world between Radha and Krsna. Real love is between Krsna and the gopis. Real love, the friendship is there between Krsna and His cowherds boys. Real love between animal and man is there. Krsna is loving the cows and calves. Real love between trees, flowers, water, simply that is the platform of love. That is spiritual world. Everything love.
So we are simply satisfied within this material world by the shadow reflection of such thing, as in the spiritual world. Therefore we have got this opportunity of human life. Let us understand Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness movement. Let us understand Krsna. And if you simply understand Krsna, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah… Tattvatah, in truth, not superficially. Learn this science of Krsna. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. This is the instruction: if you simply try to love. The process is that you worship the Deity, you take the prasadam, you chant the holy name, you follow the instruction of the spiritual master. In this way you’ll be trained up how to understand Krsna, and then you life is successful. This is Krsna consciousness movement.
Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (end)
Bg 8.14 P Attaining the Supreme
A PURE DEVOTEE CONSTANTLY REMEMBERS KRSNA AND MEDITATES UPON HIM. These are qualifications of the pure devotee for whom the Lord is most easily attainable. Bhakti-yoga is the system that the Gita recommends above all others. Generally, the bhakti-yogis are engaged in five different ways: 1) santa-bhakta, engaged in devotional service in neutrality; 2) dasya-bhakta, engaged in devotional service as servant; 3) sakhya-bhakta, engaged as friend; 4) vatsalya-bhakta, engaged as parent; and 5) madhurya-bhakta, engaged as conjugal lover of the Supreme Lord. In any of these ways, the pure devotee is always constantly engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Supreme Lord and cannot forget the Supreme Lord, and so for him the Lord is easily attained. A pure devotee cannot forget the Supreme Lord for a moment, and similarly, the Supreme Lord cannot forget His pure devotee for a moment. This is the great blessing of the Krsna conscious process of chanting the maha-mantra–Hare Krsna.
SB 2.9.30 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
LORD BRAHMA IS DEFINITELY SITUATED IN THE HUMOR OF FRIENDSHIP WITH THE LORD. Every living being is eternally related with the Personality of Godhead in one of five different transcendental humors, namely santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. We have already discussed these five kinds of humors in relationship with the Personality of Godhead. It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship. A pure devotee may be related with the Lord in any one of the transcendental humors, even in the humor of parenthood, but the devotee of the Lord is always a transcendental servitor. No one is equal to or greater than the Lord. That is the version of the Bhagavad-gita
SB 7.4.40 P Hiranyakasipu Terrorizes the Universe
Prahlada Maharaja sometimes felt that the Lord was far away from him and therefore called Him loudly. When he saw that the Lord was before him, he was fully jubilant. Sometimes, thinking himself one with the Supreme, he imitated the Lord’s pastimes, and in separation from the Lord he would sometimes show symptoms of madness. These feelings of a devotee would not be appreciated by impersonalists. One must go further and further into spiritual understanding. THE FIRST REALIZATION IS IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN, BUT ONE MUST GO STILL FURTHER TO REALIZE PARAMATMA AND EVENTUALLY THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, WHO IS WORSHIPED BY THE TRANSCENDENTAL FEELINGS OF A DEVOTEE IN A RELATIONSHIP OF SANTA, DASYA, SAKHYA, VATSALYA OR MADHURYA. HERE THE FEELINGS OF PRAHLADA MAHARAJA WERE IN THE MELLOW OF VATSALYA, FILIAL LOVE AND AFFECTION. As a child cries when left by his mother, when Prahlada Maharaja felt that the Lord was away from him he began to cry (nadati). Again, a devotee like Prahlada sometimes sees that the Lord is coming from a long distance to pacify him, like a mother responding to a child, saying, “My dear child, do not cry. I am coming.” Then the devotee, without being ashamed due to his surroundings and circumstances, begins to dance, thinking, “Here is my Lord! My Lord is coming!” Thus the devotee, in full ecstasy, sometimes imitates the pastimes of the Lord, just as the cowherd boys used to imitate the behavior of the jungle animals. However, he does not actually become the Lord. Prahlada Maharaja achieved the spiritual ecstasies described herein by his advancement in spiritual understanding.
SB 7.9.54 P Prahlada Pacifies Lord Nrsimhadeva with Prayers
THE BHAVA STAGE IS THE FINAL DIVISION BEFORE ONE REACHES LOVE OF GODHEAD. The word sarva-bhava means that one can love the Supreme Personality of Godhead in different transcendental modes of mellows, beginning with dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. IN THE SANTA STAGE, ONE IS ON THE BORDER OF LOVING SERVICE TO THE LORD. PURE LOVE OF GODHEAD BEGINS FROM DASYA AND DEVELOPS TO SAKHYA, VATSALYA AND THEN MADHURYA. STILL, IN ANY OF THESE FIVE MELLOWS ONE CAN RENDER LOVING SERVICE TO THE SUPREME LORD. Since our main business is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one can render service from any of the above-mentioned platforms of love.
SB 10.1.25 The Advent of Lord Krsna: Introduction
The potency of the Lord, known as visnu-maya, who is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, will also appear with Lord Krsna. This potency, acting in different capacities, captivates all the worlds, both material and spiritual. At the request of her master, she will appear with her different potencies in order to execute the work of the Lord.
PURPORT
Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8). In the Vedas it is said that the potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are called by different names, such as yogamaya and mahamaya. Ultimately, however, the Lord’s potency is one, exactly as electric potency is one although it can act both to cool and to heat. THE LORD’S POTENCY ACTS IN BOTH THE SPIRITUAL AND MATERIAL WORLDS. IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THE LORD’S POTENCY WORKS AS YOGAMAYA, AND IN THE MATERIAL WORLD THE SAME POTENCY WORKS AS MAHAMAYA, EXACTLY AS ELECTRICITY WORKS IN BOTH A HEATER AND A COOLER. IN THE MATERIAL WORLD, THIS POTENCY, WORKING AS MAHAMAYA, ACTS UPON THE CONDITIONED SOULS TO DEPRIVE THEM MORE AND MORE OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. IT IS SAID, YAYA SAMMOHITO JIVA ATMANAM TRI-GUNATMAKAM. IN THE MATERIAL WORLD THE CONDITIONED SOUL THINKS OF HIMSELF AS A PRODUCT OF TRI-GUNA, THE THREE MODES OF MATERIAL NATURE. THIS IS THE BODILY CONCEPTION OF LIFE. BECAUSE OF ASSOCIATING WITH THE THREE GUNAS OF THE MATERIAL POTENCY, EVERYONE IDENTIFIES HIMSELF WITH HIS BODY. Someone is thinking he is a brahmana, someone a ksatriya, and someone a vaisya or sudra. Actually, however, one is neither a brahmana, a ksatriya, a vaisya nor a sudra; one is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord (mamaivamsah), but because of being covered by the material energy, mahamaya, one identifies himself in these different ways. WHEN THE CONDITIONED SOUL BECOMES LIBERATED, HOWEVER, HE THINKS HIMSELF AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA. JIVERA ‘SVARUPA’ HAYA–KRSNERA ‘NITYA-DASA.’ WHEN HE COMES TO THAT POSITION, THE SAME POTENCY, ACTING AS YOGAMAYA, INCREASINGLY HELPS HIM BECOME PURIFIED AND DEVOTE HIS ENERGY TO THE SERVICE OF THE LORD.
In either case, whether the soul is conditioned or liberated, the Lord is supreme. As stated in Bhagavad-gita (9.10), mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: it is by the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead that the material energy, mahamaya, works upon the conditioned soul.
prakrteh kriyamanani
gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara-vimudhatma
kartaham iti manyate
“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature.” (Bg. 3.27) Within conditioned life, no one has freedom, but because one is bewildered, being subject to the rule of mahamaya, one foolishly thinks himself independent (ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate). BUT WHEN THE CONDITIONED SOUL BECOMES LIBERATED BY EXECUTING DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, HE IS GIVEN A GREATER AND GREATER CHANCE TO RELISH A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IN DIFFERENT TRANSCENDENTAL STATUSES, SUCH AS DASYA-RASA, SAKHYA-RASA, VATSALYA-RASA AND MADHURYA-RASA.
THUS THE LORD’S POTENCY, VISNU-MAYA, HAS TWO FEATURES–AVARANIKA AND UNMUKHA. WHEN THE LORD APPEARED, HIS POTENCY CAME WITH HIM AND ACTED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. SHE ACTED AS YOGAMAYA WITH YASODA, DEVAKI AND OTHER INTIMATE RELATIONS OF THE LORD, AND SHE ACTED IN A DIFFERENT WAY WITH KAMSA, SALVA AND OTHER ASURAS. By the order of Lord Krsna, His potency yogamaya came with Him and exhibited different activities according to the time and circumstances. Karyarthe sambhavisyati. YOGAMAYA ACTED DIFFERENTLY TO EXECUTE DIFFERENT PURPOSES DESIRED BY THE LORD. AS CONFIRMED IN BHAGAVAD-GITA (9.13), MAHATMANAS TU MAM PARTHA DAIVIM PRAKRTIM ASRITAH. THE MAHATMAS, WHO FULLY SURRENDER TO THE LOTUS FEET OF THE LORD, ARE DIRECTED BY YOGAMAYA, WHEREAS THE DURATMAS, THOSE WHO ARE DEVOID OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, ARE DIRECTED BY MAHAMAYA.
Note: this is something that will interest the devotees – one has take BIRTH first in the material universe where Krsna is playing his pastime to be TRAINED – THEN he is transferred to Goloka depending on his loving mellow relationship with Krsna (SANTA, DASYA, SAKHYA, VATSALYA OR MADHURYA) :
SB 10.1.23 The Advent of Lord Krsna: Introduction
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, who has full potency, will personally appear as the son of Vasudeva. Therefore all the wives of the demigods should also appear in order to satisfy Him.
PURPORT
IN BHAGAVAD-GITA (4.9) THE LORD SAYS, TYAKTVA DEHAM PUNAR JANMA NAITI MAM ETI: AFTER GIVING UP THE MATERIAL BODY, THE DEVOTEE OF THE LORD RETURNS HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD. THIS MEANS THAT THE DEVOTEE IS FIRST TRANSFERRED TO THE PARTICULAR UNIVERSE WHERE THE LORD IS AT THAT TIME STAYING TO EXHIBIT HIS PASTIMES. THERE ARE INNUMERABLE UNIVERSES, AND THE LORD IS APPEARING IN ONE OF THESE UNIVERSES AT EVERY MOMENT. THEREFORE HIS PASTIMES ARE CALLED NITYA-LILA, ETERNAL PASTIMES. THE LORD’S APPEARANCE AS A CHILD IN THE HOUSE OF DEVAKI TAKES PLACE CONTINUOUSLY IN ONE UNIVERSE AFTER ANOTHER. THEREFORE, THE DEVOTEE IS FIRST TRANSFERRED TO THAT PARTICULAR UNIVERSE WHERE THE PASTIMES OF THE LORD ARE CURRENT. AS STATED IN BHAGAVAD-GITA, EVEN IF A DEVOTEE DOES NOT COMPLETE THE COURSE OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, HE ENJOYS THE HAPPINESS OF THE HEAVENLY PLANETS, WHERE THE MOST PIOUS PEOPLE DWELL, AND THEN TAKES BIRTH IN THE HOUSE OF A SUCI OR SRIMAN, A PIOUS BRAHMANA OR A WEALTHY VAISYA (SUCINAM SRIMATAM GEHE YOGA-BHRASTO ‘BHIJAYATE). THUS A PURE DEVOTEE, EVEN IF UNABLE TO EXECUTE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE COMPLETELY, IS TRANSFERRED TO THE UPPER PLANETARY SYSTEM, WHERE PIOUS PEOPLE RESIDE. FROM THERE, IF HIS DEVOTIONAL SERVICE IS COMPLETE, SUCH A DEVOTEE IS TRANSFERRED TO THE PLACE WHERE THE LORD’S PASTIMES ARE GOING ON. HEREIN IT IS SAID, SAMBHAVANTU SURA-STRIYAH. SURA-STRI, THE WOMEN OF THE HEAVENLY PLANETS, WERE THUS ORDERED TO APPEAR IN THE YADU DYNASTY IN VRNDAVANA TO ENRICH THE PASTIMES OF LORD KRSNA. THESE SURA-STRI, WHEN FURTHER TRAINED TO LIVE WITH KRSNA, WOULD BE TRANSFERRED TO THE ORIGINAL GOLOKA VRNDAVANA. During Lord Krsna’s pastimes within this world, the sura-stri were to appear in different ways in different families to give pleasure to the Lord, just so that they would be fully trained before going to the eternal Goloka Vrndavana. With the association of Lord Krsna, either at Dvaraka-puri, Mathura-puri or Vrndavana, they would certainly return home, back to Godhead. Among the sura-stri, the women of the heavenly planets, there are many devotees, such as the mother of the Upendra incarnation of Krsna. It was such devoted women who were called for in this connection.
750214BG.MEX Lectures
Hanuman: Prabhupada, I would like to know, if there is no birth in the spiritual world, how do we re-enter the spiritual world?
Prabhupada: Hm? BIRTH MEANS, FIRST OF ALL YOU TAKE YOUR BIRTH WHERE KRSNA IS NOW PRESENT. KRSNA IS PRESENT IN ONE OF THE UNIVERSES. THERE ARE INNUMERABLE UNIVERSES. SO YOU TAKE YOUR BIRTH IN THE NEXT UNIVERSE, OR WHERE KRSNA IS NOW. THEN YOU BECOME TRAINED UP. AND WHEN YOU ARE TRAINED UP, THEN YOU PERSONALLY GO TO VAIKUNTHA. No birth. Hm, what is that?
Hrdayananda: More questions and answers?
Prabhupada: If you like, I can go on. (break)
Hrdayananda: If there’s another way to go to God. If there is another way.
Prabhupada: No. (laughter) Because it is stated in Bhagavad-gita,
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
Find out this.
Hrdayananda: (reads Spanish translation)
Prabhupada: NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO ENTER KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT BECOMING BHAKTA. (break) And there is no difficulty of becoming bhakta because the…, to become bhakta means four principles. One thing is to always think of Krsna. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. That is bhakta. Simply by thinking of Krsna… That is Hare Krsna. When you chant Hare Krsna, you think of Krsna. You become bhakta immediately. Then after becoming man-mana bhava, mad-yaji: “You worship Me,” mam namaskuru, “and offer obeisances.” It is very simple thing. If you think of Krsna and if you offer little obeisances and if you worship Him, these three things will make you bhakta and you go back to home, back to Godhead. We are teaching this thing: chant Hare Krsna, offer obeisances unto Deity and worship. Finish all business. So why they should go to the jnana path? It requires so much knowledge and so much grammatical, so much nose pressing, so many things. You avoid all these things. Simply do these three things and you become bhakta. Why don’t you take the easiest process and go back to home, back to Godhead? Thank you very much. (end)
721102SB.VRN Lectures
So Srila Sanatana Gosvami has informed us that those who are competent, those who have become competent to associate with Krsna, as Krsna says, TYAKTVA DEHAM PUNAR JANMA NAITI MAM ETI… THIS MAM ETI, THAT SPIRIT SOUL GOES TO KRSNA FIRST OF ALL WITHIN SOME UNIVERSE WHERE KRSNA IS HAVING HIS PASTIMES, BHAUMA-LILA. HE GOES THERE. THEN JUST LIKE WHEN A PERSON IS TRAINED UP AS APPRENTICE, THEN HE’S GIVEN THE POST. JUST LIKE A MAGISTRATE, AFTER PASSING THE EXAMINATION, I.C.S. EXAMINATION, HE’S TRAINED UP UNDER SOME MAGISTRATE, AND THEN HE’S GIVEN THE POST. SIMILARLY, A LIVING ENTITY, WHEN HE IS ACTUALLY ELIGIBLE BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, BY DEVELOPMENT OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, THEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER GIVING UP THIS BODY, HE’S TRANSFERRED TO THAT UNIVERSE WHERE KRSNA IS THERE. BHAUMA-LILA. AND AFTER HIS BEING TRAINED UP THOROUGHLY, THEN HE’S TRANSFERRED TO THE ORIGINAL KRSNALOKA, GOLOKA VRNDAVANA. (aside:) These boys may be given some prasadam. These boys who have come. Come here, boys! Ask them. Come here. One in hand… (Syamasundara is distributing rasagullas in background) Why…? Give them one in hand.
SO THE, MY POINT IS THAT HOW SWIFT IS THE SPIRIT SOUL THAT EITHER HE GOES TO ONE OF THE UNIVERSES… ONE OF THE UNIVERSES MEANS THERE ARE MILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF UNIVERSES. That we do not know. We have got information of this universe, materially. But from Vedic literature, we get information there are millions and trillions of universes like this. We can see only one universe. We get this information from Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti. This very word is used. Jagad-anda means “one universe.” And koti, koti means “millions.” So there are unlimited number of universes also. And in each universe, kotisu vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam, in each universe, there are millions and trillions of planets, each different from one another. This is the creation. So just imagine that what is God’s creation, how He attains every universe continually. His lila is going on. As soon as in one universe the Krsna’s birth, appearance, is finished, immediately in another universe His birth takes place. This is called nitya-lila. Exactly like… The same example: as soon as six-thirty, morning, finished here in India, immediately the six-thirty of the sunrise in some other place. Six-thirty another place. another… The six thirty is going on. It is very easy to understand. The six-thirty or seven-thirty or eight, nine, whatever you take, that is going on. That is called nitya-lila. Krsna’s lila is going on. So just imagine how many universes are there.
751005mw.mau Conversations
Prabhupada: So they are first of all trained up in that hellish planet and then they come here to suffer the same standard of life.
Indian man (4): When our soul gets out from our body, it goes to the hell or…
Prabhupada: Hellish planet.
Indian: …hemisphere or it take birth immediately afterwards?
Prabhupada: YES. THOSE WHO ARE SINFUL, THEY DO NOT TAKE IMMEDIATELY BIRTH. THEY FIRST OF ALL TRAINED UP IN THE HELLISH PLANET HOW TO SUFFER TO BECOME ACCUSTOMED AND THEN THEY ARE TAKEN BIRTH, THEN SUFFER. Just like you pass I.A.S. Then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are FIRST OF ALL TRANSFERRED TO THE UNIVERSE WHERE KRSNA IS NOW PRESENT, AND THERE YOU BECOME ACCUSTOMED. THEN YOU GO TO REAL VRNDAVANA.
Prabhu Mahesh Raja ,
Would you kindly read my SPECIFIC following comments which were posted on 29 June, 2016 and 13 July, 2016, and give your explanation with regard to sharing the knowledge from the Scripture in your kind comments posted in this thread ?
Hare Krishna. Al.l Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Amar Puri says:
29. June 2016 at 6:30 am
Balaram Prabhu, your comments in reply to my question ; ” “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?” are based on the assumption of ” illusion or Yogamaya in the Spiritual world for the Liberated Jivas in association with the Lord pastimes without seeing Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The Liberated Jiva means free from any type of ILLUSION simply rendering unconditional service for the pleasure of the Lord according to their particular relation with the Lord. That is the QUALIFICATION of the Liberated Jivas as per Sastras.
So why there should be any illusion in the Spiritual world ?
As for the example of Mother Yasoda seeing Krsna as her small child, Cowherd boys see Krsna as their wonderful friend, Gopis see Krsna as their Lover and so on these relationships are indeed there with the Lord as per their respective Eternal position of these Liberated Jivas who see the Lord in loving relations allowing these pastimes to take place in a reciprocal mode without any illusion or free from any independent influence of the Yogamaya.
Yogamaya simply serves her Master as the Master desires for His Pastime along with the association of the Liberated Jivas where ever it is necessary. Is it not TRUE ?
That is what it is described in the revealed scriptures as quoted by my comments in this thread of discussion that there is no ILLUSION in the Spiritual world where Liberated Jivas live.
That is why I disagree with the writing ; ”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”
As there is no illusion in the Spiritual world, therefore, every Liberated Jivas as per their Eternal respective loving position of the relationship serve the Lord.
To prove my points of view cited above, I have also quoted in my writing the following in this thread seprately which reads ;
Amar Puri says:
13. July 2016 at 1:57 am
Respected Learned Readers,
The following is taken from the conversation of HDG. Srila Prabhupada with the devotees which clarifies that there is no “ ILLUSION “ in the Spiritual world ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;
From Srila Prabhupada’s explanation cited above, it is very clear that some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
Therefore, all the quotes from the scriptures quoted by Sriman Balaram Prabhu and Sriman Sudarsana Prabhu refer to that that there is indeed no ILLUSION in the Spiritual world WHEN the PURPOSE of word “ bewildered “ is referred to use as the voluntary desire of such exalted DEVOTEES of the Lord in execution of the devotional service to the Dear Most Lord Shri Krishna.
So, where is the question of ILLUSION being present in the Spiritual world ?
To accept such a misunderstanding of the word ” bewildered ” as an ILLUSION without knowing and understanding its sense certainly causes CONTRADICTORY in the revealed Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru’s VANI.
Is it NOT TRUE Prabhus ? Kindly do correct me please, if my understanding is INCORRECCT.
Hope it satisfies in clarity for the understanding of all the Learned Readers as pointed out in my various comments in this thread.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS….. Amar Puri.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
That is why I said ; “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?”
If the Spiritual world indeed is subject to four defects in which ILLUSION is one of them which does exist in the Material world, then, what is the difference between Spiritual and Material world ( ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….” ) ?
What is the meaning of Spiritual world ?
Is Spiritual world NOT free from DEFECTS ?
If the answer is NO, where and what is the PROOF ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Inter-relationship between Illusioned and bewildered. Since there is a discussion on these two terms I just enclose the following so that devotees can see HOW the terms have been used:
Bg 5.20 P Karma-yoga–Action in Krsna Consciousness
… self-realized person are given herein. The first symptom is that he is not illusioned by the false identification of the body with his true self. He knows perfectly well … This steadiness of mind is called sthira-buddhi, or self-intelligence. He is therefore never bewildered by mistaking the gross body for the soul, nor does he accept the body as …
SB 1.8.4 P Prayers by Queen Kunti and Pariksit Saved
… spot-life of only a few years as our permanent existence and thus become illusioned by possessing so-called country, home, land, children, wife, community, wealth, etc., which are false … s devotees, who are able to inject the transcendental sound into the depths of the bewildered heart and thus make one practically liberated from all lamentation and illusion. That is a …
SB 3.26.18 P Fundamental Principles of Material Nature
… Lord is very affectionate to the living entities. Unfortunately, when the living entity is bewildered or illusioned by the external energy, he becomes forgetful of his eternal relationship with the Lord, but …
SB 4.18.5 P Prthu Maharaja Milks the Earth Planet
… by four defects: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. Consequently we have … the entire world is now following the imperfect directions of conditioned souls, humanity is completely bewildered.
SB 4.25.55 P The Descriptions of the Characteristics of King Puranjana
… he is very much satisfied, sometimes he is not satisfied, and sometimes he is bewildered. Bewilderment is called moha, illusion. Illusioned by society, friendship and love, the living entity thinks that his so-called society, friendship … and friendship is nothing but illusion. All living entities encaged in various material bodies are illusioned by the present activities of material enjoyment. They forget their real business, which is to …
SB 5.13 Summary Further Talks Between King Rahugana and Jada Bharata
… (deep sleep), and due to the snakebite he loses consciousness and becomes puzzled and bewildered about discharging his duties. Sometimes he is attracted by women other than his wife, and … disturbed. He forgets that one day he has to die. Although he suffers severely, being illusioned by the material energy, he still hankers after material happiness. In this way he completely …
SB 5.26.40 A Description of the Hellish Planets
… transcendental body. In this Fifth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.6.11) the illusioned and bewildered state of the materialists of this age is fully described. Elsewhere in Fifth Canto (5….
740402BG.BOM Lectures
… any mistake.” That is not possible. You must commit mistake. And sometimes we are illusioned, pramada. That we are all, because we are accepting this body as “I am,” which … called pramada, bhrama pramada. Then vipralipsa. I have got bhrama, I commit mistake, I am bewildered, I am illusioned. Still, I am taking the position of teacher. That is cheating. If you are defective,…
751015SB.JOH Lectures
… good business. This is anartha, unwanted business. I have been forced, yaya sammohitah… Being bewildered, being illusioned, misdirected by this material energy, I am trying to be happy here in this material….
731125SB.LON Lectures
… you become angry. Then after becoming angry, you become very greedy. Then you become bewildered, then become illusioned, then you become fearful.
750601SB.HON Lectures
… are conditioned soul. We have got four defects–means we commit mistake, we become illusioned or bewildered, our senses are imperfect, and, because everything is imperfect, still we want to become teacher,…
710115SB.ALL Lectures
… virahena me: “I see everything vacant, being separated from Govinda.” So when one is bewildered, illusioned, that can be also there. You become bewildered, illusioned, being separated from Govinda.
751209SB.VRN Lectures
… the Vaisnava, Gaudiya Vaisnava, and others also. So we should not waste our…, mugdhasya, bewildered, befooled or illusioned, mugdhasya. Don’t be illusioned. Even balye, in childhood, they should not be because there is no question of balya… mrtyum. So we are thinking, “We are growing. We are living.” This is all mugdha, bewildered. Where you are growing, you are living? You are dying every moment.
751209SB.VRN Lectures
… ” But he does not know that he is dying. Therefore it is explained, mugdhasya: “illusioned.” He is taking death as life, mugdhasya. So one should not be so bewildered, mugdhasya, and waste time by playing. Human life is not meant for… Similarly, jaraya grasta-…
721012BG.MAN classes
… no water, but it appears there is vast mass of water. The animals are bewildered. They are thirsty, they go to the desert to take water. Where is water in the desert? This is called illusion. So mistake, to commit mistake, to become illusioned, and to the propensity of cheating. Every man is imperfect, but he is talking just …
711113LE.DEL classes
… gatim hi visnu. Everyone should be self-interest. But in this material world, being illusioned, being bewildered by the material energy, we are thinking our self-interest in terms of our particular …
71-10-09.Upe Letter: Upendra
… out of home, similarly Krishna is not very happy on account of so many bewildered fallen souls in the material world. He therefore comes personally to ask them to surrender again to Him. But the conditioned soul is so much illusioned that it is very hard to make him surrender to Krishna. Therefore each and every …
The Yoga Maya energy of Krsna has influence in both the material and the spiritual World.In the spiritual World or Goloka,her influence is a natural arrangement,so Krsna and his eternal associates can enjoy pastimes according to the particular basic rasas they are in .This influence creates the perfect arrangement for familiarity with the Lord,since that transcendental illusion allow for uninterrupted exchange,without the “impediment”of owe and reverential mode,as it is found in the Vaikuntha planets . In the material world also, Krsna performs both: the reverential mood and the familiar mood .
“At the beginning there was only Krsna” and “he is one without a second”,and he is Atmarama,or “self satisfied”,but for the purpose of enjoying Rasa and to fulfill his pure devotees desires for loving exchanges and reciprocation,and in accordance to their particular statuses,he manifests his Yogamaya energy,from which Mahamaya or her second feature ,extends.
By the way,Hauri sauri has no authority to speak in Krsna consciousness.
Amar Puri says:
13. July 2016 at 1:57 am
Respected Learned Readers,
The following is taken from the conversation of HDG. Srila Prabhupada with the devotees which clarifies that there is no “ ILLUSION “ in the Spiritual world ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: Amar Prabhu, COVERING of the BODY is discussed. The body that they have in the spiritual world is SPIRIT it is NOT matter hence VOLUNTARY change to serve Krsna “as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything”. In the material world the body is MATTER and change is FORCED according to karma it is NOT voluntary change.
That is what is being discussed. Here are some more discussions on that subject:
760419BG.MEL Lectures
Just like we have got this form, human form of life. It is not permanently I shall be able to enjoy. Just like you have got a particular dress now. It is not permanent. You can change your dress any moment. Similarly, this body, material body, is considered… Actual fact… It will not endure. We’ll have to change. Therefore it is not sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. But Krsna’s form is sac-cid-ananda. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Vigraha means form. So everyone has got form. There are 8,400,000 forms of living entity. In the water there are 900,000 forms. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. Amongst the trees, plants, there are two million forms. So there are hundred and thousands of forms in the material world. BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THE FORM IS SAC-CID-ANANDA-VIGRAHA. EVERY FORM IS ETERNAL, FULL OF KNOWLEDGE AND FULL OF BLISS. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. Material world means… ALTHOUGH THE VARIETIES ARE THERE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD… THERE ARE ALSO TREES, AS WE HAVE GOT HERE TREES. BUT THERE THE FORMS ARE SPIRITUAL FORM, AND HERE THEY ARE MATERIAL FORM. MATERIAL FORM AND SPIRITUAL FORM, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT JUST LIKE A LIVING BEING. I CAN ASK ANY OF MY DISCIPLE TO DO SOMETHING. HE’LL DO IT. BUT THIS MICROPHONE, IT HAS ALSO A FORM, BUT IF I WANT MICROPHONE, “PLEASE DO THIS,” HE CANNOT, IT CANNOT DO BECAUSE IT IS MATERIAL. It can mechanical, give some mechanical service, one only, but it cannot do any other thing. A man can speak or he can dance or he can become a thief, he can become so many–because he’s living. That is the difference between material form and spiritual form.
710819SB.LON Lectures
cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-
laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam
laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
There is Krsna’s planet. THAT PLANET IS MADE OF TOUCHSTONE. We do not know whether anyone has got experience of this touchstone, but there is a touchstone which you touch on iron, it becomes gold. Touchstone. SO IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THERE ARE ALSO HOUSES LIKE THESE TREES, LIKE THIS; THERE ARE COWS, AND THE GOPIS, KRSNA. So their description is given in the Brahma-samhita. We should not think that we have imagined something artistic and created a Krsna. No. It is completely supported by Vedic literature, Brahma-samhita.
730504SB.LA Lectures
Just like we were discussing in this beach morning about the spiritual world. SPIRITUAL WORLD IS EXACTLY LIKE THE MATERIAL WORLD, VARIETIES. THERE IS ALSO HOUSE. THERE IS ALSO TREE. THERE IS ALSO ROAD. THERE IS ALSO CHARIOT. THERE IS… EVERYTHING IS THERE–BUT WITHOUT INEBRIETY, WITHOUT INEBRIETY. THERE, CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU KALPA-VRKSA-LAKSAVRTESU SURABHIR ABHIPALAYANTAM. FOR EXAMPLE, JUST LIKE THERE IS TREE ALSO. CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU KALPA-VRKSA. BUT THEY, THOSE TREES ARE NOT LIKE THIS TREE. SUPPOSE YOU, HERE, YOU WANT SOME FRUIT, SAY MANGO. YOU GO TO THE MANGO TREE, YOU TAKING MANGO, AT THE SAME TIME DESIRE, “WHY NOT LITTLE GRAPES?” BUT THIS MANGO TREE CANNOT SUPPLY YOU GRAPES. BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD YOU ARE EATING MANGO, AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU DESIRE GRAPES, THE SAME TREE WILL SUPPLY YOU. THIS IS CALLED DESIRE TREE. AND… SOME IDEAS OF THE SPIRITUAL WORLD ARE THERE IN THE… JUST LIKE HERE, FOR LIGHT, YOU REQUIRE SUNLIGHT, MOONLIGHT. BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, THERE IS NO NEED OF SUNLIGHT, MOONLIGHT, BECAUSE EVERYONE IS EFFULGENT. BY HIS OWN LIGHT HE …
730615SB.MAY Lectures
So it is kalpa-taru, nigama-kalpa-taru; the Vedic knowledge is just like kalpa-taru. Kalpa-taru means desire tree. Anything you want from that tree… JUST LIKE HERE IN THIS MATERIAL WORLD WE CAN GET MANGOES FROM THE MANGO TREE, PINEAPPLE FROM THE PINEAPPLE TREE. IF WE ASK THE PINEAPPLE TREE, “GIVE ME MANGO,” THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. BUT IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THERE ARE TREES. THAT IS DESCRIBED IN THE BRAHMA-SAMHITA. CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU KALPA-VRKSA-LAKSAVRTESU SURABHIR ABHIPALAYANTAM. THAT IS KALPA-VRKSA. YOU CAN GET FROM ANY TREE WHATEVER YOU LIKE. THAT IS SPIRITUAL.
741214SB.BOM Lectures
SO IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, THE HOUSES ARE MADE OF TOUCHSTONE CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU, CINTAMANI, THE TOUCHSTONE. SANSKRIT NAME IS CINTAMANI. CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU KALPA-VRKSA, AND THE TREES, THERE ARE TREES. BUT NOT LIKE THIS, THAT YOU GET COCONUT FROM COCONUT TREE, AND MANGO FROM MANGO TREE. BUT CINTAMANI-PRAKARA-SADMASU KALPA-VRKSA. THERE ANY FRUIT YOU REQUIRE, OR EVEN KACAURI, YOU CAN GET. (LAUGHTER) THAT IS CALLED KALPA-VRKSA. There are trees like that. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa, and maybe one or two, no. Laksavrtesu, there is a nice garden, or jungle you can say. There are many, many. Just like you have got experience here in this material world. If you go to the forest, you get so many trees, congested. In Africa I have seen. Very, very high, long trees and very congested, jungle. So prakara laksavrtesu, SIMILARLY IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, THERE ARE TREES OF THIS KALPA-VRKSA, WHERE YOU CAN GET ANYTHING YOU DESIRE.
70-05-16.Gur Letter: Gurudasa
Your first question about the jiva’s form with particular reference to Bhagavad-gita 8.18 purport “during the nighttime they have no form.” “During the nightime they have no form” means there is no material form. The simple understanding is as we are transmigrating from one material form to another, so actually in this material world we have no fixed form. SIMILARLY WHEN WE ARE SPIRITUALLY PERFECT WE DEVELOP THE SPIRITUAL FORM TO LIVE ETERNALLY IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD. IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THERE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS AS WE SEE HERE; NAMELY THE LAND, WATER, TREES, BIRDS, BEASTS, HUMAN BEINGS, ETC., AND ALL OF THEM ARE SPIRITUAL AS ALL THE VARIETIES HERE ARE MATERIAL.
Prabhu Mahesh Raja says ; ” Inter-relationship between Illusioned and bewildered.”
As we understand that these two words are indeed different having its different meaning and its usage. That is not the problem.
The real problem in the discussion is this ; ”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
That is why I ask your personal opinion on my comments addressed to your goodself requesting your point of view based on your shared knowledge and understanding from the Sastras as quoted by you in your comments with regard to my SPECIFIC comment in the issue of the questionable statement made by Sriman Sudarsana Prabhu in this thread which has trigged the UNNECESSARY CHAOS leading in the perception and conception of OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE mood up to including personal nasty words addressed to me in the comments from the LEARNED involved participant.
So, I seek humbly your personal understanding in your comment on this issue.
Thank you, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
I would not like to participate in this discussion. However you get only “attacks”. While this subject is very important and deep.
I agree with you.
Yes, the other Prabhus’ statements , the quotations are true because those are said by Srila Prabhupada. In spite of that one should feel the connections.I would never say that there is Illusion in Spiritual world. Because I should explain this sentence immediately.( Vaikuntha planets, Goloka Vrndavan, “bewildered/illusion” words and so on and so forth
This sentence is perhaps correct but in itself is not true. Of course I know this can be only my opinion . I will not debate.
I appreciate your persistence in this issue.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Prabhu Mahesh, Prabhu Vadiraja, marica Prabhu and all other Learned Readers ;
Once again I request all the learned Readers that kindly address your respective answer SPECIFICALLY and PARTICULARLY explaining whether or not ” ILLUSION exists in the Goloka Vaikuntha Spiritual planet as I do not find such confirmation in the following conversation of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
That is why I said ; “Now where is the need of ILLUSION in the Spiritual world ?”
If the Spiritual world indeed is subject to four defects in which ILLUSION is one of them which does exist in the Material world, then, what is the difference between Spiritual and Material world ( ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….” ) ?
What is the meaning of Spiritual world ?
Is Spiritual world NOT free from DEFECTS ?
If the answer is NO, where and what is the PROOF ?
Kindly answer to each and every itemize questions I have put forth in my above cited writing in order to validate the TRUTH.
Thank you once again in advance for your kind input in this regard.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
In my understanding there is no actually Illusion in the Spiritual world.
————————–
SB.10.8.25.
When mother Yaśodā and Rohiṇī were unable to protect the babies from calamities threatened by horned cows, by fire, by animals with claws and teeth such as monkeys, dogs and cats, and by thorns, swords and other weapons on the ground, they were always in anxiety, and their household engagements were disturbed. At that time, they were fully equipoised in the transcendental ecstasy known as the distress of material affection, FOR THIS WAS AROUSED WITHIN THEIR MINDS.
PURPORT
All these pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, and the great enjoyment exhibited by the mothers, are transcendental; nothing about them is material. They are described in the Brahma-saṁhitā as ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. In the spiritual world there is anxiety, there is crying, and there are other feelings similar to those of the material world, but because THE REALITY OF THESE FEELING IS IN THE TRANSCENDENTAL WORLD , of which this world is only an imitation, mother Yaśodā and Rohiṇī enjoyed them transcendentally.
———————-
Vrndavana, October 1, 1976 : 761001SB.VRN :
. This father, mother of Kṛṣṇa, they are nitya-siddhas. Although they are living entities, they are not Bhagavān, not viṣṇu-tattva. Jīva-tattva. But nitya-siddha. Those who are in the spiritual world, they are nitya-siddha. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. Just like Kṛṣṇa is nitya-mukta śuddha. Similarly, the associates of Kṛṣṇa who come with Him… Just like the gopīs or the cowherd boys, and so…, the cows, calves, they are all nitya-siddha, nitya-mukta. They come with Kṛṣṇa. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. THEY ARE IN THE SPIRITUAL FORM, ANANDA-CINMAYA-RASA, ENJOYING ALWAYS SPIRITUAL BLISS in the association of Kṛṣṇa. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37].
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THOSE WHO ENJOY THE ACTIVITIES OF KRSNA ARE ALSO on the platform of ānanda-cinmaya-rasa; they are liberated from the material platform. (SB.10.7.9. P.)
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Melborne May 20 1975 :
Hari-śauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is VOLUNTARY. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. AND HE CAN CHANGE HIS…,FROM FLOWER TO HUMAN BODY .That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathāmām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
————————————————————
VOLUNTARY … AND HE CAN CHANGE HIS…,FROM FLOWER TO HUMAN BODY – this means free will. There is no free will in Illusion.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Hare Krsna Marica & Amar Puri,
IMHO, you are confusing the ‘illusion’ created by Mahamaya (throwing aspect) in the material world, with the ‘llusion’ by Yogamaya (covering aspect) in the spiritual world including Krsna’s manifest Lila in the material world.
Yogamāyā – director of loving spiritual pastimes….
In Krishna’s abode, Vrindavana, Yoga-Maya covers the devotees so that they are no longer conscious that Krishna is God; they see him just as the most special, sweet member of their village. Krishna too plays that role to perfection. For example, with those devotees who love him in vatsalya-rasa (parental affection), Krishna becomes an endearing, naughty child, who steals butter from their houses. The elderly gopis complain to Krishna’s mother, Yashoda, Krishna artfully feigns innocence and Yashoda is mystified till the telltale butter on Krishna’s lips incriminates him.
Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura…
“The bewilderment of the husbands and mother in law of the married Gopis joining the rasa-lila was an action of Yogamaya not Mahamaya, because the husbands were not atheistic or unfavourable towards the lord. If they were under the influence of Mahamaya, then one would certainly observe in them hostility towards Krishna. On the other hand demons like Duryodhhana and Salva never gave respect to the lord, even though they saw Krishnas Viswarupa and Garuda, Vishnu’s carrier. They thought Krsna was one of the wicked Yadavas. This is the action of Mahamaya not Yogamaya, because their actions show hostility towards the lord. Yogamaya means which connects to Krishna.
The BEWILDERMENT of the demons is the action of Mahamaya and the BEWILDERMENT of the devotees is the action of Yogamaya. When Yasoda saw the universal form in Krishna’s mouth and when Nanda Maharaj saw Krishna in Visnuloka, they were completely unaffected by it because of their intense vatsalya-bhava parental affection, even though they saw such majestic aspects of the lord. (My emphasis)
In the eternally real drama of Krishna-lila, Yoga-Maya is the director and Krishna is the hero. But the special twist is that Krishna is also the scriptwriter, so that Yoga-Maya directs Krishna according to his own script. Thus in his Lila, Krishna is simultaneously in control being the scriptwriter, and not in control being the perfect actor who forgets himself while playing his role. This is Krishna’s extraordinary world of love… acintya-bheda.
Just as Yoga-Maya causes FORGETFULNESS OF KRSNA’S DIVINITY among those souls who want to enjoy with Krishna in His lila, the counterpart of Yoga-Maya in the material world, Maha-Maya, causes forgetfulness of Krishna’s divinity among those souls who want to enjoy separate from Krishna. However, there is a big difference between the two kinds of forgetfulness; Yoga-Maya’s forgetfulness furthers the ecstasy of love in the spiritual world, whereas Maha-Maya’s forgetfulness perpetuates the agony of repeated birth and death in the material world.”
Amar Puri posed the question….
“In this Material world we understand and know that Mahamaya creates ILLUSION to keep the conditioned Jivas under the control of three mode of the material nature but how is it that Yogamaya in the Spiritual world creates illusion for WHO and WHY ?”
His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada answers that in his lecture, 700704LE.SF Lecture…
“THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED.” (emphasis added)
…and in so many sastric quotes in this thread. Please read carefully and stop this ‘word jugglery’.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Balaram das:
Amar Puri posed the question….
“In this Material world we understand and know that Mahamaya creates ILLUSION to keep the conditioned Jivas under the control of three mode of the material nature but how is it that Yogamaya in the Spiritual world creates illusion for WHO and WHY ?”
His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada answers that in his lecture, 700704LE.SF Lecture…
“THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED.” (emphasis added)
…and in so many sastric quotes in this thread. Please read carefully and stop this ‘word jugglery’.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mahesh: thank-you very much! Balarama Prabhu – the issue is VERY CLEAR if one does NOT want to screw out some DIFFERENT meaning out of “word jugglery”. OBVIOUS Common-sense – there is no Mahamaya in the Goloka so HOW can there be her actions there? HOWEVER it IS the YOGAMAYA potency that creates a situation for the devotees and Krsna to ENJOY the BLISS of LILA as described above.
Mahesh says ; ” HOWEVER it IS the YOGAMAYA potency that creates a situation for the devotees and Krsna to ENJOY the BLISS of LILA as described above. ”
Mahesh Prabhu ; YOGAMAYA potency creates a situation for the devotees and the Lord to enjoy the bliss of Lila as described in your comments ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 which please note very carefully.
There is no ” word jugglery “.
So the issue is not CLEAR. So, please do not try to assume it as you have said it. I do not find it wise at all.
Also I requested you in addressing personally for your comments on my writing for which I am still awaiting for the answers.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It has already been explained,Amar Puri prabhu. Just read carefully. My first post explained it already,according to my studies.
Vadiraja Prabhu ; I humbly request you to go through first the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 and read my last comment addressed to Balaram as well as to Mahesh Prabhu for the answers.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna, Balaram Prabhu
Ref:
Balaram das says:
22. July 2016 at 1:20 am
“Hare Krsna Marica & Amar Puri,
IMHO, you are confusing the ‘illusion’ created by Mahamaya (throwing aspect) in the material world, with the ‘llusion’ by Yogamaya (covering aspect) in the spiritual world including Krsna’s manifest Lila in the material world.”
”
…and in so many sastric quotes in this thread. Please read carefully and stop this ‘word jugglery’. ”
———————-
Thank you very much your explanation.
I am not confusing Mahamaya and Yogamaya .
Otherwise I have got problem with Ritvik devotees. Srila Prabhupada was a empathic soul too . But you ( and others ) surmise the “word jugglery” and foolish questions etc.
Why do you have to write me ” please stop”?
Do I disturb or/and offend you?
This subject seems simple but it is not so easy for me
I told my opinion and of course I am not going to continue.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
marica says: ” I told my opinion and of course I am not going to continue. ”
marica Prabhu, your comments are perfect as per Sastras. I agree one hundred percent with you. There is no any flaws in your writing at all.
Please continue writing and explaining your point of views of understanding this issue which I find very important.
Your inputs are always appreciated.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna Marica,
No offense is intended and hopefully not taken, however when so many sastric quotes and explanations have been presented by many sincere and learned devotees on this subject, it is rather frustrating that the clear self-evident truth from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings is not accepted or understood. Also I don’t know what this subject has to do with your reference to ‘Ritvik devotees.
You were not asking questions (silly or otherwise) in your post where you stated “In my understanding there is no actually Illusion in the Spiritual world.” You were making a statement of your ‘understanding’ which was not correct, as has been shown by numerous quotes from Mahesh Raj, Sudarsana, Vadiraj Prabhus and my worthless self.
Once again quoting Mahesh Prabhu… “the issue is VERY CLEAR if one does NOT want to screw out some DIFFERENT meaning out of “word jugglery”. OBVIOUS Common-sense — there is no Mahamaya in the Goloka so HOW can there be her actions there? HOWEVER it IS the YOGAMAYA potency that creates a situation for the devotees and Krsna to ENJOY the BLISS of LILA as described above.”
Again quoting Srila Visvanath Cakravati Thakur… “The BEWILDERMENT of the demons is the action of Mahamaya and the BEWILDERMENT of the devotees is the action of Yogamaya…”
Please read carefully Srila Prabhupada’s quotes here and his original books and truth be known.
हरे कृष्ण
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Balraram Prabhu writes ; “Hare Krsna Marica & Amar Puri,
IMHO, you are confusing the ‘illusion’ created by Mahamaya (throwing aspect) in the material world, with the ‘llusion’ by Yogamaya (covering aspect) in the spiritual world including Krsna’s manifest Lila in the material world.”
”
…and in so many sastric quotes in this thread. Please read carefully and stop this ‘word jugglery’. ”
DID you read my comments carefully what I have written ? Who is writing word jugglery ? If you and Sudarsana Prabhu have read my following writing very CAREFULLY, you should not be writing repeatedly same confusing IRRELEVANT saying ILLUSION exists in the Spiritual world when the Sastras says the opposite. You should have answered all the questions I have put forth to both of you in order to continue our discussion. All of your Sastric quotes as well as Sudarshana Prabhu’s quotes in both of your comments do not address to the issue of ILLUSION IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD exists. That is why lots of questions have arisen to which Sudarsana and you ignored to answer it and have personally attacked to me out of frustration which trigged the false ego in this discussion. As I said that I did not mind the nasty words written by Sudarsana knowing very well that he did not have the answer to my questions. Anyway, the reason I am repeating it here again that you must know before commenting what you are commenting. I know that this my comments are not going to be found pleasantly but again I am not here to please people but rather know and understand the TRUTH. So, please let us avoid finger pointing and discuss this serious issue carefully without bringing our false egos and accusing each other. Please forgive me if I have said offensive to you or any other.
NOW kindly pay very close attention to my following comments posted on 23 June, 2016, 3.11 a.m. which reads ;
Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20
śrī-vindhyāvalir uvāca
krīḍārtham ātmana idaṁ tri-jagat kṛtaṁ te
svāmyaṁ tu tatra kudhiyo ‘para īśa kuryuḥ
kartuḥ prabhos tava kim asyata āvahanti
tyakta-hriyas tvad-avaropita-kartṛ-vādāḥ
śrī-vindhyāvaliḥ uvāca—Vindhyāvali, the wife of Bali Mahārāja, said; krīḍā-artham—for the sake of pastimes; ātmanaḥ—of Yourself; idam—this; tri-jagat—the three worlds (this universe); kṛtam—was created; te—by You; svāmyam—proprietorship; tu—but; tatra—thereon; kudhiyaḥ—foolish rascals; apare—others; īśa—O my Lord; kuryuḥ—have established; kartuḥ—for the supreme creator; prabhoḥ—for the supreme maintainer; tava—for Your good self; kim—what; asyataḥ—for the supreme annihilator; āvahanti—they can offer; tyakta-hriyaḥ—shameless, without intelligence; tvat—by You; avaropita—falsely imposed because of a poor fund of knowledge; kartṛ-vādāḥ—the proprietorship of such foolish agnostics.
Śrīmatī Vindhyāvali said: O my Lord, You have created the entire universe for the enjoyment of Your personal pastimes, but foolish, unintelligent men have claimed proprietorship for material enjoyment. Certainly they are shameless agnostics. Falsely claiming proprietorship, they think they can give charity and enjoy. In such a condition, what good can they do for You, who are the independent creator, maintainer and annihilator of this universe?
NOTE please, the Lord has created the entire Material Universe for the enjoyment of His Personal PASTIMES ( Where the ILLUSION exists ) not in the Spiritual World ( Where ILLUSION does not exists ) This is very very very Important point.
Thus different pastimes of the Lord described in the comments of Mahesh Prabhu, Balaram Prabhu and so on are manifested ONLY in this created Material Universe where ILLUSION exists NOT in the Eternal Spiritual world.
For example ; An advent of the Appearance of our beloved Lord Shri Krishna and His various pastimes only manifested in this Material Universe. There is no birth ( appearance ) or death ( disappearance ) in the Spiritual Planets. Lord does not take birth in the Spiritual planet, Goloka Vrindaban. To think that the Lord takes birth in the Goloka Vrindaban and does His Lila in the Spiritual world will be a misleading against the Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru because there is no such birth and death in the Spiritual Planet. We are all Eternal, Part and Parcel of the Lord. In our Original state, we the Jivas voluntarily render services to the Lord with our FREE WILL as explained by our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada in his conversation which I reproduce here below ;
Melborne May 20 1975
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were saying that because the body has arms and legs, then the coat has a similar shape. Then does the spirit soul that’s within our body have arms and legs like that?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Would the spirit soul that is within, say, a cow’s body, is in a different shape?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has got also legs. But the shape has taken according to his desire. Every animal has got these four things. Just like bird, it has got two wings, two legs. The animal has got four legs. And the man has got two hands, two legs. So the same parts of the body, they are appearing in a different type. But the four limbs of the body are there. Hm?
Devotee (2): Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?
Madhudviṣa: The question is that whether the eternal form of the spirit soul is a human form or is it…
Prabhupāda: Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Kṛṣṇa, two hands, two legs.
Hari-śauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.
Hari-śauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. And he can change his…, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathā mām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
HOPE the above references are sufficient to prove that there is NO ILLUSION in the Spiritual world.
Kindly allow me also to clarify the quote of Balaram Prabhu from Bhaktivedanta Purport to SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45, (The Appearance of Lord Varaha), Srila Prabhupada states ;
TEXT 45
sa vai bata bhraṣṭa-matis tavaiṣate
yaḥ karmaṇāṁ pāram apāra-karmaṇaḥ
yad-yogamāyā-guṇa-yoga-mohitaṁ
viśvaṁ samastaṁ bhagavan vidhehi śam
SYNONYMS
saḥ—he; vai—certainly; bata—alas; bhraṣṭa-matiḥ—nonsense; tava—Your; eṣate—desires; yaḥ—one who; karmaṇām—of activities; pāram—limit; apāra-karmaṇaḥ—of one who has unlimited activities; yat—by whom; yoga—mystic power; māyā—potency; guṇa—modes of material nature; yoga—mystic power; mohitam—bewildered; viśvam—the universe; samastam—in total; bhagavan—O Supreme Personality of Godhead; vidhehi—just be pleased to bestow; śam—good fortune.
TRANSLATION
O Lord, there is no limit to Your wonderful activities. Anyone who desires to know the limit of Your activities is certainly nonsensical. Everyone in this world is conditioned by the powerful mystic potencies. Please bestow Your causeless mercy upon these conditioned souls.
PURPORT
Mental speculators who want to understand the limit of the Unlimited are certainly nonsensical. Every one of them is captivated by the external potencies of the Lord. The best thing for them is to surrender unto Him, knowing Him to be inconceivable, for thus they can receive His causeless mercy. This prayer was offered by the inhabitants of the higher planetary systems, namely the Jana, Tapas and Satya lokas, who are far more intelligent and powerful than humans.
Viśvaṁ samastam is very significant here. There are the material world and the spiritual world. The sages pray: “Both worlds are bewildered by Your different energies. Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, forgetting themselves and You also, and those in the material world are absorbed in material sense gratification and therefore also forget You. No one can know You, because You are unlimited. It is best not to try to know You by unnecessary mental speculation. Rather, kindly bless us so that we can worship You with causeless devotional service.”
From the translation of the Sloka we read ; ” O Lord, there is no limit to Your wonderful activities. Anyone who desires to know the limit of Your activities is certainly nonsensical………….. ”
Even the Liberated Jivas can not understand fully the limitless wonderful activities of the Lord both in the Material world and the Spiritual world.
That is what in the Purport very nicely explains which read ;
” Viśvaṁ samastam is very significant here. There are the material world and the spiritual world. The sages pray: “Both worlds are bewildered by Your different energies. Those who are in the spiritual world are absorbed in Your loving service, forgetting themselves and You also, and those in the material world are absorbed in material sense gratification and therefore also forget You. No one can know You, because You are unlimited. It is best not to try to know You by unnecessary mental speculation. Rather, kindly bless us so that we can worship You with causeless devotional service.”
So, Balaram Prabhu not reading and understanding the complete Sloka try to bewilder us simply by quoting small portion of the Purport to make best his point of view in understanding the ” bewildered ” by Lord’s different energies as ILLUSION in the Spiritual world. That is where the MISLEADING comes in.
Thus, Quotes of Balaram Prabhu and Sudarasana Prabhu from the Sastras do not prove at all that the ILLUSION does exists in the Spiritual world.
I end here my comments. Once again, if any Readers feel and find any of my word in the writing OFFENSIVE, I ask humbly for the forgiveness because it is not my intent and purpose at all.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
YS…. Amar Puri.
Hare Krsna Prabhus,
Sincerely hope this topic can be put to rest so we all don’t have to look at those 3 grinning characters at the top of the page every time we click on for comment.
Obeisances… All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Yhs,
Balaram das.
For the kind attention of All concerned participants and the other Readers ;
Please note ; ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20, the pastimes of the Lord and His associates are performed under the protective Yoga Maya covering up the Devotees and the Lord Himself to serve in His pastimes, Lila in this Material Universe.
All others NON – devotees, the envious one for an example Kamsa an uncle of the Lord Shri Krishna, Mahamaya serves the purpose in the Pastimes of the Lord in this material world.
When Shri Vashudeva, the father of Shri Krishna brings back the baby girl of Mother Yasoda who is none other than the Yogamaya herself aka Subdra places her in the hands of Kamsa, she is not Yogamaya any more but transforms into Mahamaya i.e. the form of Durga aka Badrakali another name of Durga in charge of this Created Material universe who warns Kamsa for his destiny.
Thus, Yogamaya serves the activities of Devotees i.e. Lord’s associates and the Lord Himself. Yogamaya does not create ILLUSION in the Spiritual activities in the pastimes of the Lord in the Material Universe. The ILLUSION is created only by the Mahamaya i.e. Durga or Badrakali with various names as per her activities in the Material world.
That is why we glorify the Lord Jagannath, Baladev and Subdra, the Lord of the Universe. Jaya Jaganath, Jaya Baladev, Jaya Subdra. Jagannath swami nayan patha gami bhavatu me.
Saying such NON-sense that ILLUSION does exist in the Spiritual Realm goes against the Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru’s VANI.
That is exactly what HDG. Srila Prabhupada explains in his lecture, 700704LE.SF Lecture…
“THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED.” (emphasis added).
Thus, this type of covering up by Yogamaya is simply to facilitate the activities of the Lord’s associates in His Pastimes ( Lila ) to fulfill the mission of the Lord in His created Material Universe.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar puri prabhu. I think you didn’t catch my explanation of how transcendental arranged illusion exists in the spiritual World.. You have to brake down the details and equivalences in my short explanations. Can you SPECIFICALLY point at the mistake, contradictions or lack of clarity? Respectfully . Vadiraja das.
Note: Yogamaya DOES create TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION:
SB 5.4.4 P The Characteristics of Rsabhadeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead
THE WORD MAYA IS USED IN THE SENSE OF ILLUSION. CONSIDERING THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD TO BE HIS OWN SON, MAHARAJA NABHI WAS CERTAINLY IN ILLUSION, BUT THIS WAS TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION. THIS ILLUSION IS REQUIRED; OTHERWISE HOW CAN ONE ACCEPT THE SUPREME FATHER AS HIS OWN SON? The Supreme Lord appears as the son of one of His devotees, just as Lord Krsna appeared as the son of Yasoda and Nanda Maharaja. These devotees could never think of their son as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for such appreciation would hamper their relationship of paternal love.
SB 10.8.44 Lord Krsna Shows the Universal Form Within His Mouth
IMMEDIATELY FORGETTING YOGAMAYA’S ILLUSION that Krsna had shown the universal form within His mouth, mother Yasoda took her son on her lap as before, feeling increased affection in her heart for her transcendental child.
PURPORT
Mother Yasoda regarded the vision of the universal form within Krsna’s mouth as an arrangement of yogamaya, like a dream. As one forgets everything after a dream, mother Yasoda immediately forgot the entire incident. As her natural feeling of affection increased, she decided to herself, “Now let this incident be forgotten. I do not mind. Here is my son. Let me kiss Him.”
Thank you for this Mahesh Raja Prabhu.
Amar Puri and Marica Prabhu’s are now disagreeing with Srila Prabhupada!
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
I would like suggest you that we stop this subject totally.
The today’s world likes to use words in non- original meaning to wash away the essence. Because the words are important. If you want to explain this, others will belive this as ” word Jugglery”
I think Balaram Prabhu and Mahesh Prabhu does not understand this problem. (Or the mistake is in us. ) Exactly Sudarsana Prabhu should have known this.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Hare Krsna Mahesh Raja Prabhu.
I like your writings very much always.
Your comment (24. July 2016 at 5:57 am) is very good:
Note: Yogamaya DOES create TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION:
SB 5.4.4 P The Characteristics of Rsabhadeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead
THE WORD MAYA IS USED IN THE SENSE OF ILLUSION. CONSIDERING THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD TO BE HIS OWN SON, MAHARAJA NABHI WAS CERTAINLY IN ILLUSION, BUT THIS WAS TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION. THIS ILLUSION IS REQUIRED; OTHERWISE HOW CAN ONE ACCEPT THE SUPREME FATHER AS HIS OWN SON? The Supreme Lord appears as the son of one of His devotees, just as Lord Krsna appeared as the son of Yasoda and Nanda Maharaja. These devotees could never think of their son as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for such appreciation would hamper their relationship of paternal love.
SB 10.8.44 Lord Krsna Shows the Universal Form Within His Mouth
IMMEDIATELY FORGETTING YOGAMAYA’S ILLUSION that Krsna had shown the universal form within His mouth, mother Yasoda took her son on her lap as before, feeling increased affection in her heart for her transcendental child.
PURPORT
Mother Yasoda regarded the vision of the universal form within Krsna’s mouth as an arrangement of yogamaya, like a dream. As one forgets everything after a dream, mother Yasoda immediately forgot the entire incident. As her natural feeling of affection increased, she decided to herself, “Now let this incident be forgotten. I do not mind. Here is my son. Let me kiss Him.”
——————————————————————-
Yes, Srila Prabhupada used “Yogamaya’s illusion” and “transcendental illusion”
Of course I accept this. In spite of that I keep my understanding up.
Because the “transcendental illusion” means free will ( she decided to herself, “Now let this incident be forgotten. I do not mind. Here is my son. Let me kiss Him.)
Yogamaya does not create “Transcendental illusion” or ” Transcendental pleasure” because it is the devotee’s free will and Lord Krsna’s Mercy together. Lord Krsna puts Himself under the control of mother Yaśodā.So Yogamaya helps Mother Yasoda.
In the today’s world and In a public forum the ” Illusion” and “create” can be ambiguous.
Therefore Srila Prabhupada’s another explanation is finer for me:
SB.10.8.43.
Mother Yaśodā, by the grace of the Lord, could understand the real truth. But then again, the supreme master, by the influence of the internal potency, yogamāyā, inspired her to become absorbed in intense maternal affection for her son.
Purport.
Although mother Yaśodā understood the whole philosophy of life, at the next moment she was overwhelmed by affection for her son by the influence of yogamāyā. Unless she took care of her son Kṛṣṇa, she thought, how could He be protected? She could not think otherwise, and thus she forgot all her philosophical speculations. This forgetfulness is described by Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura as being inspired by the influence of yogamāyā (mohana-sādharmyān māyām). Materialistic persons are captivated by mahāmāyā, whereas devotees, by the arrangement of the spiritual energy, are captivated by yogamāyā.
I understood Amar Puri Prabhu’s sincere intention and I agree with him.
But I accept that you ( Balaram Prabhu, Sudarsana Prabhu, Mahesh Raja Prabhu ,Vadiraja Prabhu ) are right.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Mahesh Raja Prabhu does the same thing NOW simply by quoting PURPORT only from the SB. 5.4.4 as Balaram Prabhu did simply quoting PURPORT of SB Canto 3, Ch 13, Text 45, (The Appearance of Lord Varaha),
When we read these PURPORTS in full Text with its respective TRNSALATIONS in connection with the subject matter it addressed , it abundantly becomes clear that there is NO ILLUSION in the Spiritual world keeping in mind what I have brought in my writing the comment SPECIFICALLY AND PARTICULARLY on dated 23 July, 2016 at 4.40 am posted on this thread which read as follows :
” Please note ; ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20, the pastimes of the Lord and His associates are performed under the protective Yoga Maya covering up the Devotees and the Lord Himself to serve in His pastimes, Lila in this Material Universe. ……………………… ”
Those who are sincerely interested to clarify this very very very Important subject matter under discussion, please do refute any of my writings which I have taken and presented in my various writings from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
As we know and understand that there is the following glorification of DURGA in the revealed scripture which glorifies as ;
SARVAMANGALAMANGALYE SHIVE SARVATHASAADHIKE,
SHARANYE TRIYAMBAKE GAURI NARAAYANI NAMOSTUTE.
The word GAURI also refers to the name Durga which means MAHA MAYA in the Material world.
The word NARAAYANI is also mentioned in the Solaka as well which means the consort of Lord Naraayana.
Now to accept and consider, DURGA as the Naraayani depends upon her purpose of the ACTIVITIES in her domain both in the Spiritual World and the Material World.
In this connection, the following PURPORT explains very clearly the difference ;
SB. 5.4.3 describes in the PURPORT ;
We find the word bhagavān used twice in this verse. Both King Indra and Ṛṣabhadeva, the incarnation of the Supreme Lord, are described as bhagavān. Sometimes Nārada and Lord Brahmā are also addressed as bhagavān. The word bhagavān means that one is a very opulent and powerful person like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, Nārada or Indra. They are all addressed as bhagavān due to their extraordinary opulence. King Ṛṣabhadeva is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord, and therefore He was the original Bhagavān……………… ”
Thus, the very same token of understanding the meaning of the word MAYA or ILLUSION in the usage relating to the purpose of the functionality in both the Spiritual world and the Material world IF Maya or ILLUSION is the same would be utterly MISLEADING and as such understanding of ILLUSION doea exist in the Spiritual World proves very clearly CONTRADICTORY against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
NOW, those who accept the ILLUSION exists in the Spiritual world, it is their CHOICE. There is nothing more from my side to clarify further for them.
I rest my presentation here, Prabhus.
OM TAT SAT.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. Hare Krishna.
YS….. Amar Puri.
Prabhu Vadiraja acbsp ;
Kindly read with rapt attention my post 23 July, 2016 at 4.40 am and various others writings as well that the meaning of the word MAYA or ILLUSION in the usage relating to the purpose of the functionality in both the Spiritual world and the Material world IF Maya or ILLUSION is the same in its MEANING and its PURPOSE in both the World, then it would be utterly MISLEADING and such a misunderstanding of ILLUSION doea exist in the Spiritual World proves very clearly CONTRADICTORY against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
Please also be informed that YOGAMAYA potency creates a situation for the devotees and the Lord to enjoy the bliss of Lila as described in the Sastras ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 which please note very carefully.
Prabhu, giving you and all other Readers the benefit of doubt that there is ILLUSION in the Spiritual World, I also asked you humbly to reply the following questions which NO body has answered thus far, why ?
If the Spiritual world indeed is subject to four defects in which ILLUSION is one of them which does exist in the Material world, then, what is the difference between Spiritual and Material world ( ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….” ) ?
What is the meaning of Spiritual world ?
Is Spiritual world NOT free from DEFECTS ?
If the answer is NO, where and what is the PROOF ?
Kindly answer to each and every itemize questions I have put forth in my above cited writing in order to validate the TRUTH.
Prabhu, I am repeating the same in asking very relevant questions in my various post without any answers and the same time also I have given all the explanations from Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as to why NO ILLUSION exists in the Spiritual World.
What more can I do but to rest my presentation. This is simply in replying to your good post. Now, you wish to continue to answer my questions, you are free to do so, Prabhu.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
AMAR PURI PRABHU,YOGAMAYA DOES NOT “CREATE THE ILLUSION IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD” . SHE ACTS UNDER THE DIRECTION OF KRSNA.Krsna wanted to use his yogamaya potency to play around with his Mother,and for his own pleasure.Yogamaya is his venue.
Vadiraja Prabhu,
Yes,the Lord Shri Krsna can do as He pleases with His Yogamaya Potency to play around to fulfill the desire of His Devotee Mother Yasoda in His Lila, pastimes IN THE MATERIAL UNIVERSE as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 as I have pointed out in my comments.
As I have also brought out that these pastimes of the Lord are manifested only in the material universe as per SB. quoted above because in the Spiritual Realm of Goloka Vrindaban, there is no birth and no death. That is why I humbly asked you to read my comments made on 23. July 2016 at 4:40 am which exactly confirms what you are saying, Prabhu.
So, where is the question of ILLUSION existing in the Spiritual Realm ? Srila Prabhupada has also very clearly said during his conversation posted in my comments which read ;
Madhudviṣa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.
Prabhupāda: Not in the spiritual world. There that is VOLUNTARY. Some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as flower; they become flower there. If I want that “As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa,” he becomes flower, voluntarily. AND HE CAN CHANGE HIS…,FROM FLOWER TO HUMAN BODY .That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa as cow, he serves Kṛṣṇa as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. Ye yathāmām prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham [Bg. 4.11]. That is Kṛṣṇa’s all-powerfulness, spiritual life.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
All other points of interest such as SB 5.4.4 Purport in which it states ;
TEXT 4
nābhis tu yathābhilaṣitaṁ suprajastvam avarudhyāti-pramoda-bhara-vihvalo gadgadākṣarayā girā svairaṁ gṛhīta-naraloka-sadharmaṁ bhagavantaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ māyā-vilasita-matir vatsa tāteti sānurāgam upalālayan parāṁ nirvṛtim upagataḥ.
SYNONYMS
nābhiḥ—King Nābhi; tu—certainly; yathā-abhilaṣitam—according to his desire; su-prajastvam—the most beautiful son; avarudhya—getting; ati-pramoda—of great jubilation; bhara—by an excess; vihvalaḥ—being overwhelmed; gadgada-akṣarayā—faltering in ecstasy; girā—with a voice; svairam—by His independent will; gṛhīta—accepted; nara-loka-sadharmam—acting as if a human being; bhagavantam—the Supreme Personality of Godhead; purāṇa-puruṣam—the oldest among living beings; māyā—by yogamāyā; vilasita—bewildered; matiḥ—his mentality; vatsa—my dear son; tāta—my darling; iti—thus; sa-anurāgam—with great affection; upalālayan—raising; parām—transcendental; nirvṛtim—bliss; upagataḥ—achieved.
TRANSLATION
Due to getting a perfect son according to his desire, King Nābhi was always overwhelmed with transcendental bliss and was very affectionate to his son. It was with ecstasy and a faltering voice that he addressed Him, “My dear son, my darling.” This mentality was brought about by yogamāyā, whereby he accepted the Supreme Lord, the supreme father, as his own son. Out of His supreme good will, the Lord became his son and dealt with everyone as if He were an ordinary human being. Thus King Nābhi began to raise his transcendental son with great affection, and he was overwhelmed with transcendental bliss, joy and devotion.
PURPORT
The word māyā is used in the sense of illusion. Considering the Supreme Personality of Godhead to be his own son, Mahārāja Nābhi was certainly in illusion, but this was transcendental illusion. This illusion is required; otherwise how can one accept the supreme father as his own son? The Supreme Lord appears as the son of one of His devotees, just as Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared as the son of Yaśodā and Nanda Mahārāja. These devotees could never think of their son as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for such appreciation would hamper their relationship of paternal love.
-,-,-,-,-,-,-,-,-,-,-,-,
Upon reading with rapt attention and understanding the above cited Sloka, it says ; ” … King Nābhi was always overwhelmed with transcendental bliss and was very affectionate to his son. ……… ”
It is clearly written and very well explained in the Translation of the Sloka as well as in the Purport as to WHY and in WHAT SENSE the word MAYA or ILLUSION is used. It is simply to please the DEVOTEE of the Lord Maharaja Nabhi. The same way Mother Yasoda and Vasudev this illusion is required; otherwise how can one accept the supreme father as his own son ?
It is very clearly mentioned the reason which is very important point. It is very special situation, Lord order His one of the main Potency of Yogamaya to serve His Purpose in His manifested Lila in the created material universe.
DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE ILLUSION EXIST IN THE GOLOKA VRINDABAN AS IT DOES IN THE MATERIAL WORLD ?
The answer is NO.
To say that it does exist as the writer Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu says which read ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”. it CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
This ends my discussion in reply to Vadiraja Prabhu.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar Puri has been clearly defeated even though he is trying to bluff everyone on this site. Such are the dubious intentions of deluded individuals as himself, that he is using this forum to try and delude others with his nonsense arguments which have nothing to do with what is being discussed.
It is not possible to convince devious person of anything. That is evident here! So what are his real motivations? That is what should be considered! Are such deluded persons to be given ‘the last word’ so they can further delude less experienced visitors to this site? He is simply ‘making a show’ of erudite scholarship and at the same time undermining others on this site who are clearly much more realized and sincere.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Yogamaya is TRANCENDENTAL. Yogamaya is part of Sri Krishna’s INTERNAL POTENCY. Yogamaya is NOT subject to defects. ILLUSION in the form of Yogamaya is NOT subject to the four defects…… How can Spiritual World have defects……NONSENSE! …… Illusion in the form of Yogamaya is NOT MATERIAL!…… Yogamaya is not material!…… The Spiritual World (Goloka Vrindavan) is the ETERNAL ABODE OF THE LORD WHERE HE CAN, THROUGH HIS INTERNAL POTENCY (Yogamaya) enjoy transcendental loving pastimes with His devotees…… ILLUSION in relation to Yogamaya is Transcendental NOT MATERIAL…… Wikipedia Sanskrit definition of Maya is ILLUSION…… Britannica Sanskrit definition of Maya is ILLUSION……. In both Wikipedia and Britannica Sanskrit definitions Maya also Translates as MAGIC!…… Magicians are also called ILLUSIONISTS are they not?…… No Liberated Jivas in the Spiritual World who are under Lord Sri Krishnas internal potency of Yogamaya are subject to any material defect……. No liberated Jivas who take part in Sri Krishnas pastimes in the material world are subject to any material defect…… Liberated Jivas such as previous Acharyas and present Acharya His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are not subject to any material defect…… Sri Krishna Himself (even though Yogamaya is FULLY UNDER HIS CONTROL) also allows His internal potency of Yogamaya to cover Himself also, to engage in loving pastimes with His devotees…… This is NOT defect …….This is Not material…… This is Sri Krishna’s Internal Potency……. Yogamaya is ALWAYS under the control of Sri Krishna…… The liberated Jivas have no such control over Yogamaya, but as Yogamaya is benign, transcendental and serves The Lords Transcendental Pastimes such an idea is non-existant……The liberated Jivas eternal relationship with The Supreme Lord has NO defects…….Liberated Jivas (Uttama Adhikari Acharyas) such as previous Acharyas, are only subject to Yogamaya (Mahamaya does not make them forget The Lord)……..Mahamaya can NOT exist in the Spiritual World (only Yogamaya)…….We are all conditioned souls and are subject to Mahamaya…….When we try to serve the Spiritual Master (His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) selflessly and without duplicity then we come under Yogamaya……Mahamaya and Yogamaya are different but also the same……(achintya beda-beda tattva)…….ILLUSION only has DEFECT in relation to Mahamaya NOT in relation to Yogamaya as Yogamaya is Transcendental and without defects or material influence………
Mahamaya in the material realm (also including heavenly and hellish planets) punishes the conditioned soul through the 8,400,000 species of material bodies…….until we can gain the Lords mercy and return to The Lords Loving Pastimes…….Even though Mahamaya and Yogamaya are different and act differently toward the ”Conditioned Jiva” and the ”Liberated Jiva” the ultimate goal is the SAME…..SERVING THE TRANSCENDENTAL, ETERNAL, LOVING PASTIMES OF THE SUPREME LORD SRI KRISHNA.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
I’m not particularly inclined to any godbrother in specific,as they are all dear to Srila Prabhupadaa,but my advise is that we need to be more eloquent in our thoughts and writings. It is perfectly good to post extensivly from Prabhupada’s books,but it will be even more pleasing to Srila Prabhupada,to express in our own words larged explanations,according to our own realizations. That will demonstrate our learning more concisely. My Respectfull obeisances. Vadiraja das.
One thing very important also, is that it should be clear by this,that there are not contradictions in SrilaPrabhupada’s books,and that the greatest challenge will be,to reconcile in harmony what he has said. Vadi.
Amar Puri prabhu,the pastime of krsna and mother jashoda in Goloka,is also been performed in Gokula,or the extension of Goloka in the Material World,at a place named Vrindavan. Vadi.
Hare Krsna, Prabhus.
I would like to ask you.
According to Sudarsana Prabhu ” others on this site who are clearly much more realized and sincere”
Prabhus, why do not you answer Amar Puri’ questions if those are so obviously? Why does not Amar Puri Prabhu deserve to get answers by your own words?
I am an ignorant soul.
Is this sentence correct?
The soul is in illusion in the Material world, the soul is in illusion in the Brahmajyoti and the soul is in illusion in the Spiritual world.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
marica Prabhu says: Is this sentence correct?
” The soul is in illusion in the Material world, the soul is in illusion in the Brahmajyoti and the soul is in illusion in the Spiritual world. ”
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Hare Krsna,. marica Prabhu, there is answer in my comments here in this thread which I reproduce below for your convenience and ready reference ;
As we know and understand that there is the following glorification of DURGA in the revealed scripture which glorifies as ;
SARVAMANGALAMANGALYE SHIVE SARVATHASAADHIKE,
SHARANYE TRIYAMBAKE GAURI NARAAYANI NAMOSTUTE.
The word GAURI also refers to the name Durga which means MAHA MAYA in the Material world.
The word NARAAYANI is also mentioned in the Solaka as well which means the consort of Lord Naraayana.
Now to accept and consider, DURGA ( Mahamaya ) as the Naraayani (Yogamaya ) depends upon her purpose of the ACTIVITIES in her domain both in the Spiritual World and the Material World.
In this connection, the following PURPORT explains very clearly the difference ;
SB. 5.4.3 describes in the PURPORT ;
We find the word bhagavān used twice in this verse. Both King Indra and Ṛṣabhadeva, the incarnation of the Supreme Lord, are described as bhagavān. Sometimes Nārada and Lord Brahmā are also addressed as bhagavān. The word bhagavān means that one is a very opulent and powerful person like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, Nārada or Indra. They are all addressed as bhagavān due to their extraordinary opulence. King Ṛṣabhadeva is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord, and therefore He was the original Bhagavān……………… ”
Also SB. 5.4.4. TRANSLATION below confirms my writing cited above ;
” Due to getting a perfect son according to his desire, King Nābhi was always overwhelmed with transcendental bliss and was very affectionate to his son. It was with ecstasy and a faltering voice that he addressed Him, “My dear son, my darling.” This mentality was brought about by yogamāyā, whereby he accepted the Supreme Lord, the supreme father, as his own son. Out of His supreme good will, the Lord became his son and dealt with everyone as if He were an ordinary human being. Thus King Nābhi began to raise his transcendental son with great affection, and he was overwhelmed with transcendental bliss, joy and devotion. ”
It is clearly written and very well explained in the Translation of the Sloka as well as in the Purport in the SB. 5.4.4 as to WHY and in WHAT SENSE the word MAYA or ILLUSION is used. It is simply to please the DEVOTEE of the Lord Maharaja Nabhi. The same way Mother Yasoda and Vasudev this illusion is required; otherwise how can one accept the supreme father as his own son ?
Another example I have also given in my writing in the comments in this thread where Shri Vashudeva, the father of Shri Krishna, baby child exchanges with the baby girl of Mother Yasoda, all the door keepers in the prison house of Kamsa were put in to deep asleep by the Illusion or Influence of the Yogamaya because Yogamaya serves her Master Shri Krishna. On the way back to the Prison house bringing the baby girl who is Yogamaya herself in order to hand over the baby child to the King Kamsa. As soon as Shri Vashudev hands over the baby girl she slips from the hands of King Kamsa and arise in the sky above warning the Kamsa of his fate. She is none other than the Durga, Mahamaya herself because she slips from the hand of the NON-devotee King Kamsa. Mahamaya deals with all the NON-devotees not the Yogamaya. That is my understanding based on the Sastras.
Thus, the very same token of understanding the meaning of the word MAYA or ILLUSION in the usage relating to the purpose of the functionality in both the Spiritual world and the Material world IF Maya or ILLUSION is the same existing in both the world, Spiritual world and Material would be utterly MISLEADING and as such understanding of ILLUSION doea exist in the Spiritual World proves very clearly CONTRADICTORY against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
I sincerely do hope that you see the answer you have asked for it.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Dear Learned Readers ;
One must aspire for respectful exchanges in order to be honored to ascertain the highest truth of life for the welfare of all as stated in the SB.1.1.2 ;
TRANSLATION by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada
” Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṇa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart. ”
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Adi 4.30 T The Confidential Reasons for Lord Caitanya’ s Appearance
amiha na jani taha, na jane gopi-gana
dunhara rupa-gune dunhara nitya hare mana
SYNONYMS
amiha–I; na jani–shall not know; taha–that; na jane–will not know; gopi-gana–the gopis; dunhara–of the two; rupa-gune–the beauty and qualities; dunhara–of the two; nitya–always; hare–carry away; mana–the minds.
TRANSLATION
“Neither the gopis nor I shall notice this, for our minds will always be entranced by one another’s beauty and qualities.
PURPORT
In the spiritual sky the Vaikuntha planets are predominated by Narayana. His devotees have the same features He does, and the exchange of devotion there is on the platform of reverence. But above all these Vaikuntha planets is Goloka, or Krsnaloka, where the original Personality of Godhead, Krsna, fully manifests His pleasure potency in free loving affairs. Since the devotees in the material world know almost nothing about these affairs, the Lord desires to show these affairs to them.
In Goloka Vrndavana there is an exchange of love known as parakiya-rasa. It is something like the attraction of a married woman for a man other than her husband. In the material world this sort of relationship is most abominable because it is a perverted reflection of the parakiya-rasa in the spiritual world, where it is the highest kind of loving affair. SUCH FEELINGS BETWEEN THE DEVOTEE AND THE LORD ARE PRESENTED BY THE INFLUENCE OF YOGAMAYA. THE BHAGAVAD-GITA STATES THAT DEVOTEES OF THE HIGHEST GRADE ARE UNDER THE CARE OF DAIVA-MAYA, OR YOGAMAYA: MAHATMANAS TU MAM PARTHA DAIVIM PRAKRTIM ASRITAH (BG. 9.13). THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY GREAT SOULS (MAHATMAS) ARE FULLY ABSORBED IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS, ALWAYS ENGAGED IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD. THEY ARE UNDER THE CARE OF DAIVI-PRAKRTI, OR YOGAMAYA. YOGAMAYA CREATES A SITUATION IN WHICH THE DEVOTEE IS PREPARED TO TRANSGRESS ALL REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES SIMPLY TO LOVE KRSNA. A DEVOTEE NATURALLY DOES NOT LIKE TO TRANSGRESS THE LAWS OF REVERENCE FOR THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, BUT BY THE INFLUENCE OF YOGAMAYA HE IS PREPARED TO DO ANYTHING TO LOVE THE SUPREME LORD BETTER.
Those under the spell of the material energy cannot at all appreciate the activities of yogamaya, for a conditioned soul can hardly understand the pure reciprocation between the Lord and His devotee. But by executing devotional service under the regulative principles, one can become very highly elevated and then begin to appreciate the dealings of pure love under the management of yogamaya.
In the spiritual loving sentiment induced by the yogamaya potency, both Lord Sri Krsna and the damsels of Vraja forget themselves in spiritual rapture. By the influence of such forgetfulness, the attractive beauty of the gopis plays a prominent part in the transcendental satisfaction of the Lord, who has nothing to do with mundane sex. Because spiritual love of Godhead is above everything mundane, the gopis superficially seem to transgress the codes of mundane morality. This perpetually puzzles mundane moralists. THEREFORE YOGAMAYA ACTS TO COVER THE LORD AND HIS PASTIMES FROM THE EYES OF MUNDANERS, AS CONFIRMED IN THE BHAGAVAD-GITA (7.25), WHERE THE LORD SAYS THAT HE RESERVES THE RIGHT OF NOT BEING EXPOSED TO EVERYONE.
THE ACTS OF YOGAMAYA MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE LORD AND THE GOPIS, IN LOVING ECSTASY, TO SOMETIMES MEET AND SOMETIMES SEPARATE. These transcendental loving affairs of the Lord are unimaginable to empiricists involved in the impersonal feature of the Absolute Truth. Therefore the Lord Himself appears before the mundaners to bestow upon them the highest form of spiritual realization and also personally relish its essence. The Lord is so merciful that He Himself descends to take the fallen souls back home to the kingdom of Godhead, where the erotic principles of Godhead are eternally relished in their real form, distinct from the perverted sexual love so much adored and indulged in by the fallen souls in their diseased condition. The reason the Lord displays the rasa-lila is essentially to induce all the fallen souls to give up their diseased morality and religiosity, and to attract them to the kingdom of God to enjoy the reality. A person who actually understands what the rasa-lila is will certainly hate to indulge in mundane sex life. For the realized soul, hearing the Lord’s rasa-lila through the proper channel will result in complete abstinence from material sexual pleasure.
Adi 4.29 The Confidential Reasons for Lord Caitanya’ s Appearance
YOGAMAYA IS THE NAME OF THE INTERNAL POTENCY THAT MAKES THE LORD FORGET HIMSELF AND BECOME AN OBJECT OF LOVE FOR HIS PURE DEVOTEE IN DIFFERENT TRANSCENDENTAL MELLOWS. THIS YOGAMAYA POTENCY CREATES A SPIRITUAL SENTIMENT IN THE MINDS OF THE DAMSELS OF VRAJA BY WHICH THEY THINK OF LORD KRSNA AS THEIR PARAMOUR. This sentiment is never to be compared to mundane illicit sexual love. It has nothing to do with sexual psychology, although the pure love of such devotees seems to be sexual. One should know for certain that nothing can exist in this cosmic manifestation that has no real counterpart in the spiritual field. All material manifestations are emanations of the Transcendence. The erotic principles of amorous love reflected in mixed material values are perverted reflections of the reality of spirit, but one cannot understand the reality unless one is sufficiently educated in the spiritual science.
Adi 5.41 The Glories of Lord Nityananda Balarama
“Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead has nothing to do, He nevertheless acts; although He is always unborn, He nevertheless takes birth; although He is time, fearful to everyone, He flees Mathura in fear of His enemy to take shelter in a fort; and although He is self-sufficient, He marries 16,000 women. These pastimes seem like bewildering contradictions, even to the most intelligent.” Had these activities of the Lord not been a reality, sages would not have been puzzled by them. Therefore such activities should never be considered imaginary. WHENEVER THE LORD DESIRES, HIS INCONCEIVABLE ENERGY (YOGAMAYA) SERVES HIM IN CREATING AND PERFORMING SUCH PASTIMES.
KB 45 Krsna Recovers the Son of His Teacher
WHEN LORD KRSNA SAW THAT VASUDEVA AND DEVAKI WERE REMAINING STANDING IN A REVERENTIAL ATTITUDE, HE IMMEDIATELY EXPANDED HIS INFLUENCE OF YOGAMAYA SO THAT THEY COULD TREAT HIM AND BALARAMA AS CHILDREN. AS IN THE MATERIAL WORLD THE RELATIONSHIP EXISTING BETWEEN FATHER AND MOTHER AND CHILDREN CAN BE ESTABLISHED AMONGST DIFFERENT LIVING ENTITIES BY THE INFLUENCE OF THE ILLUSORY ENERGY, SO, BY THE INFLUENCE OF YOGAMAYA, THE DEVOTEE CAN ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP IN WHICH THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD IS HIS CHILD. AFTER CREATING THIS SITUATION BY HIS YOGAMAYA, KRSNA, APPEARING WITH HIS ELDER BROTHER BALARAMA AS THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS SONS IN THE DYNASTY OF THE SATVATAS, VERY SUBMISSIVELY AND RESPECTFULLY ADDRESSED VASUDEVA AND DEVAKI: “MY DEAR FATHER AND MOTHER, ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY ANXIOUS FOR THE PROTECTION OF OUR LIVES, YOU COULD NOT ENJOY THE PLEASURE OF HAVING US AS YOUR BABIES, AS YOUR GROWING BOYS AND AS YOUR ADOLESCENT YOUTHS.” Krsna indirectly praised the fatherhood of Nanda Maharaja and motherhood of Yasoda as most glorious because although He and Balarama were not their born sons, Nanda and Yasoda actually enjoyed Their childhood pastimes. By nature’s own arrangement, the childhood of the embodied living being is enjoyed by the parents. Even in the animal kingdom the parents are found to be affectionate to the cubs. Being captivated by the activities of their children, they take much care for their well-being. As for Vasudeva and Devaki, they were always very anxious for the protection of their sons, Krsna and Balarama. That is why Krsna, after His appearance, was immediately transferred to another’s house. Balarama was also transferred from Devaki’s womb to Rohini’s womb.
Mahesh Raja Prabhu says….
KB 45 Krishna Recovers the Son of His Teacher
WHEN LORD KRISHNA SAW THAT VASUDEVA AND DEVAKI WERE REMAINING STANDING IN A REVERENTIAL ATTITUDE, HE IMMEDIATELY EXPANDED HIS INFLUENCE OF YOGAMAYA SO THAT THEY COULD TREAT HIM AND BALARAMA AS CHILDREN. AS IN THE MATERIAL……………………………………
This verse is very significant because ultimately Sri Krishna (and of course Sri Balarama) derive the greatest pleasure by ‘forgetting that they are the Supreme Personality of Godhead’ (through the Lords internal potency of ‘YOGAMAYA’). This is why The Lords heart is always ‘in Vrindavan’ and why The Lord is always thinking of Srimati Radharani (even when He is surrounded by His beautiful queens in Dwarkha) because he is not satisfied by ‘awe and reverence’.
Caitanya Caritamrita Adi Lila Ch 3 Text 16.
Aisvarya-jnanate saba jagat misrita
Aisvarya-sithila-preme nahi mora prita.
Translation…
“Knowing My opulences, the whole world looks upon Me with awe and veneration. But devotion made feeble by such reverence does not attract Me”
The 5 rasas are all perfect in themselves but INCREASE IN INTENSITY from Santa, Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya and Madhurya. In Madhurya ALL THE OTHER RASAS ARE INCLUDED. (and the same for the other Rasas) in Sakhya Rasa for example Santa and Dasya are included. Madhurya Rasa being the most intense overshadow the other moods even though they are present. The most intense Rasa being the ‘over-riding principal’.
It should be noted however that ‘awe and reverence’ is always present (except Santa, which is neutrality) in the higher, more intense Rasas as without it equates to ‘Sahajiyaism.’
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
Amar puri prabhu, if it wasn’t for the agency of Yogamaya in the spiritual world,the cowherd boys,the Gopis,and those on the neutral rasa with Krsna,wouldn’t been able to have familiarity with Krsna,so in order to engage in thise rasas,they are covered by the vail of Yogamaya.Otherwise,their possition will have to be more suitable in Vaikuntha,wher the reverential mood of Dasya,is prevalent. In Vaikuntha,Lord Narayana,as well as his servants,enjoy the same opulence as Narayana,and even the bodily features also. Thyey are sufficiently satisfied eternally in that position and they derive the bliss of the Dasya rasa in full. If by any chance they want to develope a moore familiar relationship than owe and reverence,Krsna whois in their Hearts,will advance that possibility,and when they developed the mood and temperament of those on the other basic rasa,as in Goloka,he arranges for that natural transition,where the lord agrees to be treated as Brother,Father and Mother,and lovers of Krsna. There is no impediment,povided they develop the familiar Rasas that acccomodate their particular intimacy, naturally.
Hare Krsna Vadiraj Prabhu, yes agreed, and we see by reading the SB, 3rd Canto “Description of the Kingdom of God”, as in your comment, that the pure devotees in the Vaikunthas are ‘sufficiently satisfied eternally in that position and they derive the bliss of the dasya rasa in full’.
And quoting Srila Visvanath Chakravati Thakur>>
“Just as Yoga-Maya causes FORGETFULNESS OF KRSNA’S DIVINITY among those souls who want to enjoy with Krishna in His lila, the counterpart of Yoga-Maya in the material world, Maha-Maya, causes forgetfulness of Krishna’s divinity among those souls who want to enjoy separate from Krishna. However, there is a big difference between the two kinds of forgetfulness; YOGA-MAYA’S FORGETFULNESS FURTHERS THE ECSTASY OF LOVE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, whereas Maha-Maya’s forgetfulness perpetuates the agony of repeated birth and death in the material world.”
YOGAMAYA = GOOD FORGETFULNESS!
MAHAMAYA = BAD FORGETFULNESS!
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Vadiraja Prabhu, I am still awaiting your thoughtful insights on my comments in which questions were put forward to your goodself as well.
As we understand the meaning of Yoga means CONNECTING Maya means Yogamaya, the Energy aka. Illusion, Influence, cover up,bewildered and so on that connects the Devotees in rendering Services for the pleasure of the Lord VOLUNTARILY as desired by the Lord’s Devotee.
Whereas the meaning of the Maha means THE GREATEST Maya means Mahamaya, the Energy aka.
Illusion, Influence, cover up,bewildered and so on that DISCONNECTS the NON-devotees from the Lord in rendering Services for the pleasure of themselves instead of the Lord WITH THE CONDITION, i.e. SUBJECT TO both happiness and distress, pleasure and pain and so on under the Greatest Illusion of the Mahamaya.
I have given already examples also in my comments in this regard.
As far as explanations in the FUNCTIONALITY of the PURPOSE of the Yogamaya Potency and the Mahamaha Potency are concerned, it has been clearly understood in my above cited comments.
As a matter of fact the very FUNCTIONALITY and PURPOSE of both the Yogamaya and the Mahamaya which create the DIFFERENCES in their respective domain have been brought up in my comments from the Sastras, Sadhu and the Guru’s VANI.
That is why Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu’s WHIMSICALLY writing which reads ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”. becomes QUESTIONABLE as asked in my comments for which NO body has answered thus far.
It is for that matter the above cited statement CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Giving milk to a snake just makes them more venomous!
Yes Sudarsana Prabhu, no more ‘milk’. Webmaster has my email addy, so I authorize him to give it to you if you care to correspond. We’re on the Gold Coast with a few Prabhupada-anugas.
Yhs,
Bal.
Very well said Balaram Prabhu ; ” Yes Sudarsana Prabhu, no more ‘milk’. …… ” which is in reply to Sudarsana Prabhu’s remarks ; ” Giving milk to a snake just makes them more venomous! “.
As it seems to appear ” Yes Sudarsana Prabhu, no more ‘milk’. …… “. that these two learned associates are leaving or perhaps left already in their mind this ONE of the best Prabhupada – anugas web site on account of the very subtly presence of the FALSE EGOS which was triggered on the discussion in this thread.
I am the first one to feel sad when I read ” Yes Sudarsana Prabhu, no more ‘milk’. …… “.
Prabhus, we are not discussing topic here on the mundane platform. We are here discussing on the Spiritual platform as Vadiraja Prabhu very nicely said ;
Vadiraja acbsp says:
3. August 2016 at 11:44 pm
Actually these exchanges are also spiritual,since the objective is the same. We should not be taken these things too seriously,as we are extensions of his divine grace. Discussions like this,strengthen the mind. Vadiraja Das.
The following writing also confirms the same of Vadiraja Prabhu ;
Amar Puri says:
29. July 2016 at 9:31 pm
The faith increases in Krishna Consciousness by our voluntary increase of serving Krishna.
Serving Krishna is unlimited and he can accept our unlimited service, and award us unlimited transcendental pleasure in the unlimited service of the Lord.
That is the meaning of unlimited.
-Srila Prabhupada letter, February 20, 1968
Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
Usually there are a returning problem among the devotees in connection with Srila Bhaktivinod Thakura’s diksa guru.
Srila Prabhupada warns us.
“Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not belong to the mundane plane of the three qualitative modes. He belongs to the transcendental plane beyond the reach of the imperfect sense perception of a living being. Even the most erudite mundane scholar cannot approach the transcendental plane unless he submits himself to transcendental sound with a receptive mood, for in that mood only can one realize the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What will be described herein, therefore, has nothing to do with the experimental thoughts created by the speculative habits of inert minds. The subject matter of this book is not a mental concoction but a factual spiritual experience that one can realize only by accepting the line of disciplic succession described above. Any deviation from that line will bewilder the reader’s understanding of the mystery of Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta,” Adi 1
More devotees proved here meaning of the “illusion” word in the Material world and the Spiritual World by Srila Prabhupada’s words. The devotees are always patient.
We have to accept Srila Prabhupada’s just like in case of disciplic succession.
“The subject matter of this book is not a mental concoction BUT A FACTUAL SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE THAT ONE CAN REALIZE ONLY BY ACCEPTING the line of disciplic succession described above. ANY DEVIATION from that line WILL BEWILDERED THE READER’S UNDERSTANDING of the mystery…”
I do this.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
marica Prabhu,
Your points of views presented from the scripture are well taken and appreciated as usual.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
RESPECTED LEARNED READERS,
Kindly read the followings with RAPT ATTENTION ;
Daso Smi Sudarsana writes ;
25. July 2016 at 4:58 am
Amar Puri has been clearly defeated even though he is trying to bluff everyone on this site. Such are the dubious intentions of deluded individuals as himself, that he is using this forum to try and delude others with his nonsense arguments which have nothing to do with what is being discussed.
It is not possible to convince devious person of anything. That is evident here! So what are his real motivations? That is what should be considered! Are such deluded persons to be given ‘the last word’ so they can further delude less experienced visitors to this site? He is simply ‘making a show’ of erudite scholarship and at the same time undermining others on this site who are clearly much more realized and sincere.
Daso Smi
Sudarsana
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Instead of answering and addressing the genuine questions put forth to the more realized and sincere devotees including Daso Smi Sudarsana himself , he writes these undesirable comments referred above repeatedly out of his ARROGANT attitude which is far far away from “ Daso Smi “ and he uses it very PROUDLY.
To prove his ARROGANCE ATTITUDE further, instead of answering the valid questions, he writes OBVIOUSLY to attack with the following ILL REMARKS out of the subject under discussion ;
Sudarsana Das Vanacari says:
28. July 2016 at 1:51 pm
Giving milk to a snake just makes them more venomous!
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The dilema is No body has answered to the questions I have put forth such as this ;
“DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE ILLUSION EXIST IN THE GOLOKA VRINDABAN AS IT DOES IN THE MATERIAL WORLD ?
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
To validate without any mentioning to what his statement is all about at the first place in his whimsical – CHAOTIC statement in the comment which trigged the unnecessarily CHAOS reading ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
Daso Smi Sudarsana continues writing following seemingly CONTRADICTORY in his comments to further defend it such as this ;
“ ……Yogamaya is NOT subject to defects…..”
“ …….ILLUSION only has DEFECT in relation to Mahamaya NOT in relation to Yogamaya as Yogamaya is Transcendental and without defects or material influence………”
“….Even though Mahamaya and Yogamaya are different and act differently toward the ”Conditioned Jiva” and the ”Liberated Jiva” the ultimate goal is the SAME…..SERVING THE TRANSCENDENTAL, ETERNAL, LOVING PASTIMES OF THE SUPREME LORD SRI KRISHNA. “
RESPECTED LEARNED READERS PLEASE NOTE ;
HIS ( Daso Smi Sudarsana ) ABOVE SAID STATEMENT IS MISLEADING AGAIN KNOWING VERY WELL FROM THE SASTRAS THAT THE FUNCTIONALITY AND PURPOSE OF THE YOGAMAYA AND MAHAMAYA IS NOT THE SAME.
SO HOW THE ULTIMATE GOAL CAN BE THE SAME, KNOWING THAT ONE IS DEFECTIVE AND THE OTHER IS NOT ?
DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE ILLUSION EXIST IN THE GOLOKA VRINDABAN AS IT DOES IN THE MATERIAL WORLD ?
The answer is NO.
To say that it does exist as the writer Daso Smi Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu says * without its relevant description stating in WHAT SENSE to his WHIMSICAL — CHAOTIC statement in the comment * which reads ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
it CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The opinions of envious fools who twist words to suit their own agenda are of little value.
The faith increases in Krishna Consciousness by our voluntary increase of serving Krishna.
Serving Krishna is unlimited and he can accept our unlimited service, and award us unlimited transcendental pleasure in the unlimited service of the Lord.
That is the meaning of unlimited.
-Srila Prabhupada letter, February 20, 1968
Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Now he is saying that NOBODY has answered his question! This isn’t just about me, I have had it with this guy, he is just ‘twisting’ everything anyone says. Is this guy for real?
Real as it looks indeed, Daso Smi Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu.
You can disrespect and envoy a Sudra like myself who simply speaks the TRUTH in my comments under reference out of what very very very little I have learned from HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s VANI in the association of His Sincere and Serious disciples who propagate such TRUTH. That is why you have had it from this guy.
You can not disregard the TRUTH.
Your false egos are covering your intelligent to accept your mistake in your whimsical writing as pointed out in my comments. It is indeed just about YOU.
Who else has initiated this unnecessarily and unpleasant writing on the discussion of your concocted writing ?
Had you explained when I asked in WHAT SENSE, this whole chaotic episode of writings could have stopped but ALAS, your ARROGANT attitude of writing with false egos have brought this CHAOS.
Now you accept or reject the TRUTH presented here , it is your sweet FREE WILL.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
My comments on my opinions about some trivial Scientific study about things that are not necessarily our concerns,have been neglected and not posted . So,therefore I’m out. I do not expect even this comment to be acknowledged,but it is on the moderators shoulders to be true to all of us,fairly.
Dear Vadiraja Prabhu,
your comments are appreciated, and none of them have been rejected. Maybe you are referring to this comment which maybe was unintentionally posted at another article (approved immediately after your posting)?:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=9930#comment-39695
Ditto………….count me out as well!
My intention is not to mislead anyone but if I have,’please accept my dandavat pranams’.
Other persons obviously believe this to be the case and this ”constant barrage” I can well do without.
Such persons DEMAND answers but want to shoot the messenger. Thank you for giving such persons a megaphone which only ‘muddies the water’ for the more inquisitive, and just creates more confusion.
I’m done!
Please remove my email from your site.
The writing of Shriman Balaram das Prabhu also exactly confirms what I have opposed to the statement of Sudarsana das Prabhu which totally misleads to the writing of Balaram Prabhu as well posted on 27. July 2016 at 12:54 am from the scripture which says:
“ ……… However, there is a big difference between the two kinds of forgetfulness; YOGA-MAYA’S FORGETFULNESS FURTHERS THE ECSTASY OF LOVE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, whereas Maha-Maya’s forgetfulness perpetuates the agony of repeated birth and death in the material world….. “.
DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE ILLUSION EXIST IN THE GOLOKA VRINDABAN AS IT DOES IN THE MATERIAL WORLD ?
The answer is NO.
To say that it does exist as the writer Daso Smi Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu says * without its relevant description stating in WHAT SENSE to his WHIMSICAL — CHAOTIC statement in the comment * which reads ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
it CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Dear Learned Participants,
Thank you very much for your respective contributions in this regard which is always very much appreciated.
Certainly our false egos are present in a very subtle level which we may not notice it. That indicates that we are conditioned souls.
Therefore, we as the student of learning and practising KC at our individual pace in the understanding from our Jagat Guru HDG. Srila Prabhupada’s VANI share our respective realization of what we have learned from the Scriptures for the benefit of all the Readers.
At the end, once again I beg to offer my appology to any one and every one who so ever feel or felt OFFENSIVE from my writing and speaking, perhaps, with disrespect which is / was not my intent and purpose at all.
Kindly forgive me for that offence.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
July 30, 1975, Dallas
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.48
“So mind means whose memory is very sharp, he is called great-minded. So this greatness of mind and smallness of mind are different according to the dictation of the Supersoul.”
Please excuse my accelerated reaction. I can also be difficult at times. Please again forgive me, Hare Krsna.
Amar Puri seems to have his problem with understanding Sudarsana Prabhu’s statement >>
“….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
Sudarsana Prabhu is not saying that Mahamaya is in the spiritual world. He is saying that the material world is controlled by Mahamaya and the spiritual world is controlled by Krsna’s internal potency, Yogamaya.
It might have been easier for Amar Puri to comprehend if Sudarsana Prabhu had stated.. “as both worlds are subject to illusion, Mahamaya in the material world and Yogamaya in the spiritual world”.
However I doubt if even that would have satisfied him, as he has previously stated on 21st June in his comments>>>
“Please also be informed that YOGAMAYA potency creates a situation for the devotees and the Lord to enjoy the bliss of Lila as described in the Sastras ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 which please note very carefully.”
He has asked for answer to his question>>> “In this Material world we understand and know that Mahamaya creates ILLUSION to keep the conditioned Jivas under the control of three mode of the material nature but how is it that Yogamaya in the Spiritual world creates illusion for WHO and WHY?”
This has been answered many times in this thread, but again I present another quote by Srila Prabhupada from his Bhaktivedanta Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Ch. 15 Text 26. Amar Puri, please read with ‘rapt attention’.
“…Yoga-maya-balena vikuntham. THE TRANSCENDENTAL HAPPINESS EXHIBITED IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD AND ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATIONS THERE ARE MADE POSSIBLE BY THE INFLUENCE OF YOGA-MAYA, THE INTERNAL POTENCY OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.” (my emphasis added).
Once again we have Srila Prabhupada’s statement above, confirmed by Srila Visvanath Cakravati Thakur>>
“Just as Yoga-Maya causes FORGETFULNESS OF KRSNA’S DIVINITY among those souls who want to enjoy with Krishna in His lila, the counterpart of Yoga-Maya in the material world, Maha-Maya, causes forgetfulness of Krishna’s divinity among those souls who want to enjoy separate from Krishna. However, there is a big difference between the two kinds of forgetfulness; YOGA-MAYA’S FORGETFULNESS FURTHERS THE ECSTASY OF LOVE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, whereas Maha-Maya’s forgetfulness perpetuates the agony of repeated birth and death in the material world.”
Yhs,
Balaram das.
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
I think everyone understands Maya and Yogamaya here.
Sudarsana Prabhu proved in his comments that his understanding is also right.
————————————
Mahesh Raja says:
24. July 2016 at 5:57 am
Yogamaya DOES create TRANSCENDENTAL ILLUSION
“THE WORD MAYA IS USED IN THE SENSE OF ILLUSION. CONSIDERING THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD”
———————————
Srila Prabhupada used “Yogamaya’s illusion” and “transcendental illusion”
We should accept this. That is all.
“The manifested cosmic creation appears as reality. But reality, of which this is but a shadow, is in the spiritual world. Absolute Truth is in the spiritual sky, not the material sky. In the material sky everything is relative truth. That is to say, one truth depends on something else. This cosmic creation results from interaction of the three modes of nature, and the temporary manifestations are so created as to present an illusion of reality to the bewildered mind of the conditioned soul, ” (SB. 1.1.1. P.)
We all of us are here in this world to learn and help one and another with tolerance. I think the other devotees helped you and me.
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
Dear Prabhu Balaram and marica,
I have already very well described my position of understanding the word MAYA i.e. both Yogamaya and Mahamaya in my previous writings which are self explanatory. Therefore, there is NO need to assume and presume of my understanding the word Maya in your writing.
However, I reproduce here below my writings for your kind perusal and a ready reference ;
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Amar Puri says:
26. July 2016 at 8:58 pm
Vadiraja Prabhu, I am still awaiting your thoughtful insights on my comments in which questions were put forward to your goodself as well.
As we understand the meaning of Yoga means CONNECTING Maya means Yogamaya, the Energy aka. Illusion, Influence, cover up,bewildered and so on that connects the Devotees in rendering Services for the pleasure of the Lord VOLUNTARILY as desired by the Lord’s Devotee.
Whereas the meaning of the Maha means THE GREATEST Maya means Mahamaya, the Energy aka.
Illusion, Influence, cover up,bewildered and so on that DISCONNECTS the NON-devotees from the Lord in rendering Services for the pleasure of themselves instead of the Lord WITH THE CONDITION, i.e. SUBJECT TO both happiness and distress, pleasure and pain and so on under the Greatest Illusion of the Mahamaya.
( THAT IS INDEED THE DIFFERENCE AS DESCRIBED ABOVE I AM REFERRING TO, PRABHUS WHICH PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO IT )
I have given already examples also in my comments in this regard.
As far as explanations in the FUNCTIONALITY of the PURPOSE of the Yogamaya Potency and the Mahamaha Potency are concerned, it has been clearly understood in my above cited comments.
As a matter of fact the very FUNCTIONALITY and PURPOSE of both the Yogamaya and the Mahamaya which create the DIFFERENCES in their respective domain have been brought up in my comments from the Sastras, Sadhu and the Guru’s VANI.
That is why Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu’s WHIMSICALLY writing which reads ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”. becomes QUESTIONABLE as asked in my comments for which NO body has answered thus far.
It is for that matter the above cited statement CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
And then Amar Puri ALSO wrote again the followings ;
Amar Puri says:
31. July 2016 at 5:17 pm
The writing of Shriman Balaram das Prabhu also exactly confirms what I have opposed to the statement of Sudarsana das Prabhu which totally misleads to the writing of Balaram Prabhu as well posted on 27. July 2016 at 12:54 am from the scripture which says:
“ ……… However, there is a big difference between the two kinds of forgetfulness; YOGA-MAYA’S FORGETFULNESS FURTHERS THE ECSTASY OF LOVE IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, whereas Maha-Maya’s forgetfulness perpetuates the agony of repeated birth and death in the material world….. “.
DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE ILLUSION EXIST IN THE GOLOKA VRINDABAN AS IT DOES IN THE MATERIAL WORLD ?
The answer is NO.
To say that it does exist as the writer Daso Smi Sudarsana Das Vanacari Prabhu says * without its relevant description stating in WHAT SENSE to his WHIMSICAL — CHAOTIC statement in the comment * which reads ;
”….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”.
it CERTAINLY goes against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI as I have pointed out.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
N. B. : It is not my desire at all to continue on this UNPLEASANT and UNNECESSARY TOPIC which brings the FALSE EGOS of all the PARTICIPANTS including myself let alone Shriman Sudarsana Prabhu who is signing OUT because of my UNDESIREABLE writings perhaps. That is how he feels as it appears so. Therefore, I end my writing, Prabhus.
OM TAT SAT.
Amar Puri you have made a statement against Srila Prabhupada’s Vani as follows >>>
“Please also be informed that YOGAMAYA potency creates a situation for the devotees and the Lord to enjoy the bliss of Lila as described in the Sastras ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as per Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20 which please note very carefully.”
You have made this incorrect statement in a very aggressive manner and quoted SB 8:22:20 in an effort to confirm this. On reading said verse & Bhaktivedanta Purport, there is nothing relating to your erroneous statement above, and Yogamaya is not even mentioned.
On this topic, Srila Prabhupada refutes your incorrect statement that.. Yogamaya potency creates a situation ‘ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE’ (your emphasis) with the following quote>>>
Bhaktivedanta Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Ch. 15 Text 26.
“…Yoga-maya-balena vikuntham. THE TRANSCENDENTAL HAPPINESS EXHIBITED IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD AND ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATIONS THERE ARE MADE POSSIBLE BY THE INFLUENCE OF YOGA-MAYA, THE INTERNAL POTENCY OF THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD.” (my emphasis added).
In spite of this you are accusing the devotees, Mahesh Raj, Sudarasan, Vadiraj Prabhus and my worthless self of going against Srila Prabhupada’s Vani!!
Yhs,
Balaram das
Balaram Prabhu,
I humbly request you to kindly read my comments going back to 23 June, 2016 and so forth in relation to what you are saying that my comments are incorrect relating to my writing ; ….” Yogamaya potency creates a situation ‘ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE …. ”
Kindly read the Translation of Text SB. 8.22.20 in which it says ;
” Śrīmatī Vindhyāvali said: O my Lord, You have created the entire universe for the enjoyment of Your personal pastimes, but foolish, unintelligent men have claimed proprietorship for material enjoyment. Certainly they are shameless agnostics. Falsely claiming proprietorship, they think they can give charity and enjoy. In such a condition, what good can they do for You, who are the independent creator, maintainer and annihilator of this universe?
” Yogamaya potency creates a situation…. ” This is my statement which refers to the various situations in the Past time of the Lord Shri Krishna being performed with His Devotees, Eternal Associates on His Created Material Universe as described in my comment which reads ;
Amar Puri says:
23. July 2016 at 4:40 am
For the kind attention of All concerned participants and the other Readers ;
Please note ; ONLY IN THE CREATED MATERIAL UNIVERSE as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam ; Canto Eight — Part Three Chapters 17-24 8.22.20, the pastimes of the Lord and His associates are performed under the protective Yoga Maya covering up the Devotees and the Lord Himself to serve in His pastimes, Lila in this Material Universe.
All others NON — devotees, the envious one for an example Kamsa an uncle of the Lord Shri Krishna, Mahamaya serves the purpose in the Pastimes of the Lord in this material world.
When Shri Vashudeva, the father of Shri Krishna brings back the baby girl of Mother Yasoda who is none other than the Yogamaya herself aka Subdra places her in the hands of Kamsa, she is not Yogamaya any more but transforms into Mahamaya i.e. the form of Durga aka Badrakali another name of Durga in charge of this Created Material universe who warns Kamsa for his destiny.
Thus, Yogamaya serves the activities of Devotees i.e. Lord’s associates and the Lord Himself. Yogamaya does not create ILLUSION in the Spiritual activities in the pastimes of the Lord in the Material Universe. The ILLUSION is created only by the Mahamaya i.e. Durga or Badrakali with various names as per her activities in the Material world.
That is why we glorify the Lord Jagannath, Baladev and Subdra, the Lord of the Universe. Jaya Jaganath, Jaya Baladev, Jaya Subdra. Jagannath swami nayan patha gami bhavatu me.
Saying such NON-sense that ILLUSION does exist in the Spiritual Realm goes against the Sastras, Sadhus and the Guru’s VANI.
That is exactly what HDG. Srila Prabhupada explains in his lecture, 700704LE.SF Lecture…
“THE MOTHER FORGETS THAT “MY SON, IF HE’S GOD, HOW HE CAN BE KILLED?” BUT THE MOTHER’S AFFECTION IS ALWAYS LIKE THAT. JUST LIKE KRSNA, WHEN HE WAS GOING TO ATTACK A DEMON AS A BOY, YASODA-MA, MOTHER YASODA, WOULD ASK HER HUSBAND NANDA MAHARAJA, “WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS BOY TO GO OUT? WHY DON’T YOU LOCK HIM?” SO THAT IS MOTHER’S AFFECTION. THE MOTHER, YASODA MOTHER, SHE DOES NOT KNOW THAT KRSNA IS THE SUPREME PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD. THEN HER MOTHERLY AFFECTION WILL BE CHECKED. THEREFORE SHE WAS, BY YOGA-MAYA, SHE WAS ALWAYS COVERED.” (emphasis added).
Thus, this type of covering up by Yogamaya is simply to facilitate the activities of the Lord’s associates in His Pastimes ( Lila ) to fulfill the mission of the Lord in His created Material Universe.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Also please read my comment in this thread with regard to your quoted Text from Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Ch. 15 Text 26.how it confirms my writing to which you are FALSELY saying that I am accusing the devotees, Mahesh Raj, Sudarasan, Vadiraj Prabhus and my worthless self of going against Srila Prabhupada’s Vani!!
WITHOUT ANY PROOF OF PRESENTATION from you that my writing is against Srila Prabhupada’s VANI is going back and forth to churn it out simply for FRUSTRATION leading to arise our respective FALSE EGOS to satisfy.
What is all this for ? Why are you going again in circle ?
Kindly read my writings with RAPT attention and then only write and ask for clarification IF you find any serious falsified mistake in my writing against our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
Hare Krishna, Prabhu. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna, Amar Puri Prabhu.
The understanding is according to the individual “ability”. However It is your responsibility that you say something about someone ( whimsical-chaotic statement, false egos ).
Hare Krsna,
ys marica
740615rc.par Conversations
Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”
Prabhupada: YES. THAT I EXPLAINED, SATTVA-GUNA, RAJO-GUNA, TAMO-GUNA. THOSE WHO ARE IN SATTVA-GUNA, THEY CAN UNDERSTAND EASILY. THOSE WHO ARE IN RAJO-GUNA, THEY HAVE GOT DIFFICULTY. AND THOSE WHO ARE IN TAMO-GUNA, THEY CANNOT. (French)
Mahesh Raja and marica Prabhus,
As the saying goes ; ” Action speaks louder than the voice “.
Thus keeping in mind, the same very token the action of my writings CLEARLY and LOUDLY speak based on the dialogues truly describing the discussion under the circumstances presented by all the learned participants in their respective writings as well which truly reflects what you both have said in your respective messages dated 3 August, 2016 11.06 am and 8.19 am respectively.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Actually these exchanges are also spiritual,since the objective is the same. We should not be taken these things too seriously,as we are extensions of his divine grace. Discussions like this,strengthen the mind. Vadiraja Das.
Vadiraja Prabhu, says ; ” ….. Discussions like this,strengthen the mind. ”
That is the purpose for all of us to share our realized knowledge from the VANI of our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada.
If some one like myself is wrong, then, I stand corrected from the realized knowledge of like minded students.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
It seems that this site is dying since various prabhus left because Amar Puri could not admit that he was mistaken about the maha-maya/yoga-maya issue discussed here and bored/annoyed/offended everybody for weeks. Shame.. I suggest that he should be removed and the other devotees should be invited back.
(Cc. Madhya 8.90, Purport) reads as below ;
“If one tries to mingle the worship of yogamaya with mahamaya, considering them one and the same, he does NOT really show high intelligence.”
Prahlad Prabhu, Where is my mistake about the maha-maya/yoga-maya issue discussed here in this thread ?
I am ready to admit my mistake of the wrong explanations in my comments when you point it out and I am willing also myself to withdraw my wrong / misguided writings.
Kindly correct me.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Amar Puri. Your mistake has already been pointed out numerous times by many devotees in previous comments on this thread but you will not admit you were mistaken. Instead you just offended the devotees who corrected you. And nobody has said that one should mingle the worship of yogamaya with mahamaya. You are indeed a shameless, desperate, relentless troll.
Prahlad Das, what is that IRREVERSIBLE correction devotees made on my mistake to which I have refused to admit it ?
Why don’t you pin point that IRREVERSIBLE correction by the devotees to whom you are referring to being offended and corrected my mistake ?
For your information only that the quote from (Cc. Madhya 8.90, Purport) is simply for the reference purpose how Yogamaya and Mahamaya, when it is stated ; ” ….. as both worlds are subject to illusion (Mahamaya and Yogamaya)……….”. is NOT One and the SAME which is totally against the verdict of the Sastras that it does NOT really show high intelligence.”
I humbly ask you to please STOP writing IGNORANT comments and share only your realization on the subject under discussion as to what you have learned from our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
Hope it meets you well.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The thread of this story got lost so that is unfortunate as it it a very important topic, if not the most important!
The Freemason Satanists see Srila Prabhupada’s movement as the biggest threat to their Babylonian, Talmudic, global, economic mass slavery regime so their androgynous infiltrators want to destroy these seeds that will (if given Srila Prabhupada’s love and guidance) grow up to be strong and devoted followers of Lord Sri Krishna.
They are telling you what they are doing! This is why androgynes Radhannath and Gopal K are worshiping their tranny associate Keith Ham, at Ham’s burial (GK is clearly prostrate and doing the Hakini mudra “summoning the energy of the Goddess!” (31.26) G K is seen in a later time frame (41.47) and the hand clearly shows a female digit ratio! Bhakti Chaitanya and Shivarama can often be seen performing the Hakini mudra as they are also androgynes. B C always looks like it is possessed by demonic forces (the face is an index of the mind!).
The female digit ratio of Alfred Ford is clearly seen in time-frame (48.53) there are (at least) 2 other androgynes in this picture, The highest (33 degree) Freemasons can also be hermaphrodites who are also child Satanic torturers, rapists and murderers.
Sanaka Rsi’s vid also includes pics of androgyne ‘creepy Brian’ Tibbits and it’s androgyne ‘travel tranny pal’ (with all the ear piercings) …. nothing like a good ‘slap-em-down’ kirtana (between Satanic child abuse and baby sacrifices! Brian was one of the ‘hardest to pick’ but look at the “son!” …… Why would someone who is Krishna Conscious be involved in Freemason, Satanic child ritual abuse and also ‘gender transition’ their own offspring?
So many androgynes in this vid ! This is a Cabal of Freemason androgynes! Gauri das (an easy one to pick! … no brow ridge! no A
Adams apple! and Bhakti Marga (the easiest to pic) at the annual (GBC) Gender Bender Club! ….. Yes at least half of them!
Ever wondered why Jayapataka (in the older photos) has a ‘cutesy’ female gaze? It’s wake-up time folks!
One has to understand nescience (Sri Isopanishad Mantra 11) to understand why this is happening! These androgynes believe THEY ARE GODS! AND MOST COME FROM DEMONIC FAMILIES! THIS IS WHY THEY ARE TRANNYS.
THIS IS WHY THEY HATE ‘NORMALS’ THIS IS WHY THEY WANT TO ABUSE, TORTURE AND MURDER BABIES IN FREEMASON SATANIC RITUALS.
AS H G Jvalamukhi Devi Dasi has stated it is “like ‘blue cheese’ the infestation is so ingrained”, how do you separate the blue? Organize a petition? The world is run by these scum! How many even know that ISKCON is controlled by ‘gender-inverted Freemason Satanists?’ That is going to take another 20 years to sink in! Anyway one has to start somewhere! If you don’t even recognize who the enemy is then how can can you find a solution? …. Write them a letter?
As the article says in the introduction:
The Cost of Silence attempts to shed some light on the bigger picture, and explores the historical factors that have contributed, and enabled the existing child protection problem in ISKCON. By doing so, it also seeks to offer and find solutions for this issue. The video documentary is also available here on YouTube, in four parts.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
It is necessary to understand Mantra 11 (Sri Isopanishad) to better understand what I am saying, which means researching topics such as ‘transvestigation, gematria, Freemasonry’ etc.
The vast majority of demonic elites who hold the most power in this world are gender inverted (androgynes and hermaphrodites and/or are immersed in some evil perversion). These elites want you to worship androgynes, whether it is politicians, sports stars, film stars, media celebrities or prominent musicians AS THEY ARE ALL ANDROGYNES but unless one takes some time to research this for themselves they will not understand anything.
These androgynes are given all facility by the Satanic rulers as they are under their control! They have infiltrated everything!
The demons within ISKCON are under the PROTECTION of these global Satanists, (as they are agents) this is why Satanism has to be destroyed on a global level for them to be WEEDED OUT! ….. NOT JUST WEEDED OUT OF ISKCON BUT EVERYTHING ELSE!
As we can see Pragosh Prabhu is in the centre of the other two! It’s a bit like that song … ‘Stuck in the middle with You’ …….
”Well I’m stuck in the middle with you, and I don’t know what it is I can do?” ….. Da Da Da Da
“Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle ……… ”
Even though they are all ‘egg-men’ (I am the Walrus) there is hope for Pragosha Prabhu as someone who has a conscience and backbone and doesn’t want to go to Hell. So Pragosha Prabhu (The Walrus) resigns from the Gender Bender Club (GBC) over the Loko-Nut episode which just goes to prove that Krishna Consciousness transcends all material boundries and false allegiances to fake fraternities.
For the others though, their road to hell is assured!
“I am the egg-man they are the egg-men, I AM THE WALRUS!” (Goo Goo G’Joob!)
Damodara Prabhu posted this on his site! (Vedic Inquirer)
WHAT THE ADMINS WILL AND WON’T APPROVE
The admin team regularly discusses what it will and won’t approve.
As a general principle:-
1, Make sure that whatever you want to post has some explicit connection to child protection. General messages taking about sannyasis or gurus or GBCs are off is not specific enough. Make the connection to child protection. We are not against gurus, sannyasis or the GBC in general.
2. If you have read something about a guru or sannyasi that you disagree with and wish to rebut, there is no problem in principle with such responses PROVIDED THAT those responses don’t cross over into counter-accusation “You’re offensive…. jealous…… lying……, etc.” Given the high percentage of victims participating in the group – and often the ones reporting – the admins feel a duty of care towards them in particular. There are surely respectful ways of expressing disagreement
WHEN YOU BEGIN BY “FALSELY LEGITAMIZING” THIS CABAL OF USURPERS, POISONERS, ENABLERS AND TRANNY FAKES LIKE BHAKTI CHAITANYA (BC) THEN YOU HAVE LOST ALL CREDIBILITY! THIS IS A CABAL THAT ABUSES EVERYONE (NOT JUST CHILDREN!). BC IS MOCKING YOU BECAUSE IT IS AN FTM (TRANSGENDERED FREEMASON) AND DOES ALL THE MUDRAS AND RITUALS TO SHOW THIS (HIDDEN IN PLAIN SITE!). BC IS PLAYING YOU LIKE A FIDDLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE DELUSIONAL ENOUGH ‘NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE OBVIOUS’ THAT (1) BC IS NOT A BIOLOGICAL MALE, (2) BC IS NOT A SANNYASI (SEE 1) AND (3) BC IS NOT A GURU (SEE 1).
MOT OF THE GBC BODY, FAKE GURUS, AND SABHA ARE GENDER-INVERTED! OPEN YOUR EYES!
BC IS HOWEVER DEMONICALLY POSSESSED (AND SMILES LIKE IT’S JUST EATEN SOMEONE’S BABY!) AND IS A USURPER AND A WORSHIPER OF BHAPHOMET (FREEMASONRY) DON’T YOU SEE THIS OR ARE YOU BLIND? BC KNOWS ALL THE FREEMASON MUDRAS! SO I’M AFRAID YOUR “SOLUTIONS” ARE AS WEAK AS WATER AS B C KNOWS THAT YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER FOOLISH GROVELLER THAT REFERS TO IT AS “MAHARAJA” AND WORSHIPS THE GROUND IT WALKS ON!
YOU ARE THE VICTIM DAMODAR PRABHU! YOU HAVE MADE THAT QUITE CLEAR THIS BC IS TELLING YOU THIS BUT YOU ARE STILL BLINDED BY THESE PRETENDERS, WHO WANT YOU AS THEIR SLAVE BUT DESPISE YOU WITH A VENGEANCE ……… THIS IS WHY THEY MOCK YOU!
GBC AND SABHA ARE TEN TIMES WORSE THAN LOKO-NUT HE’S JUST A DUMB VILLIAGE IDIOT ‘GROPER’ WHY NOT GO AFTER THE FREEMASON, SATANIC, TODDLER TORTURERS, RAPISTS AND BABY KILLERS! (B C IS MOST LIKELY ONE OF THEM! ….. HOW DO YOU THINK BC GOT THE GIG?)
HOW ABOUT THIS SOLUTION …….. “HANG THEM ALL!” (SRILA PRABHUPADA’S SOLUTION!)
On Damodara Das’s (CIA controlled) ‘FAKEBOOK’ page, He says:
Every now and again, we get ignorant comments along the lines of….
“I don’t believe in child protection or having a child protection office. Child protection is the sole responsibility of parents.” Then below he shows some UN charter on “Child Protection?”
Srila Prabhupada expressed to a mother (who’s son had been cruelly mistreated at Vrindavan Gurukula resulting in Srila Prabhupada closing it down!) that a child is better off with the parents, so why is Damodara Das saying that the comment above is “IGNORANT?”
The UN is responsible for thousands of cases of child trafficking, abuse and rape and it has been well documented that it is a haven for pedophiles and rapists AS THEIR MEMBERS ARE IMMUNE FROM BEING PROSECUTED IN WHATEVER COUNTRY THEY ARE WORKING IN, THIS ALL FORMS A PRECONDITION OF THEIR CONTRACTUAL “OBLIGATIONS” BEFORE BEING DEPLOYED!
A recent article on TRUTH11 explains this in detail! “WHO staff rape children and UN………….”
Damodara Das reveals himself once again to be most ill-informed and naive in his understanding on these matters and should endeavor to refrain from talking nonsense by placing any trust in these UN scumbags who together with the WHO, BIS, UNICEF, WEF etc are ‘privately owned entities’ (not subject to a vote by the people) under the control and umbrella of New World Order of Freemason, Satanic baby killers, rakshasas and child rapists.
Pamho agtacbsp, the cost of silence is SRI KRSNA because HE SAY among the secrets I’m the silence and real death is when one don’t care about nothing inclunding krsna then if there is a proprietor HE WILL TAKE CARE , SRI KRSNA WILL TAKE THE
COST OF SILENCE BY MAKING THOSE BIPED SUB HUMAN LIVING ENTITY TO SUFFER MORE THEN THESE CHILDRENS believe or not believe that heavy suffering is stored for all these wretches who are living in the animal kingdom with the form so called human, agtacbsp ys haribol
So it is true that we should not be silent, so I am certainly not going to be!
What I believe this is all about is that it is just another PR campaign by unqualified persons masquerading as ‘senior devotees’ (or there’s no fool like an old fool!). On the Vedic Enquirer there is a link to “Karuna Care”, an organization set up by Rambhoru Brinkman (Prithu’s ex) together with an array of odd looking characters who make up the team!
I have seen a few vids where Brinkman is endorsing “social distancing” (Isolation Protocol created by the CIA) and talking nonsense about “the fake pandemic” and how you can beat the “black dog” by cleaning out the attic, when you are “locked down” ….. total nonsense!
Rambhoru Brinkman has no doubt got the Big Tick from the GBC (Gender Bender Club) as both Rambhoru and Prithu are both gender inverted as are “their” 2 offspring! They are all part of the Cabal of Infiltrators, cronies and beaurocrats and transgendering ones “own” children is about the worse type of child abuse that is possible to imagine!
In MTF Brinkman’s interview with podcaster FTM Namarasa the ‘male digit ratio’ is clearly visible at 2.48 (right at the beginning!). These Talmudic Jew ‘gender bender’ infiltrators like Rambhoru Brinkman are fooling no-one by this kind of ‘band aid solution’ for the bleeding dying car crash victim!
THIS IS ALL HYPOCRISY AND WINDOW DRESSING! DON’T GET SUCKED IN BY THESE FAKES!
Pamho agtacbsp, anyway we are still waiting for that serial killer and must be like SRI ARJUNA DEVJI THAT’S A MAHA RATI not just a serial killer , only that serial killer can clean our corrupt society from all this degraded citizen because i’s get worse without cleaning then if one kill to protect the vedic dharma don’t get any reaction about that , it’s a disgusting society where the daughter stabbed the father to death because of sexual abuse and harassment we must do the same for all these uncivilised citizens who robbed us , so you growing a big man just defend yourselves as that girl done by killing is father .agtacbsp ys haribol