Oct 5, UK (SUN) — Disciplic Succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially.
In reply to Mahavidya Prabhu, who wrote in his article “How Are We to Know?“:
“If the argument is raised that one can receive post-samadhi diksa from AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Why should one not apply the same reasoning and logic to any of Srila Prabhupada’s predecessors? When did they state that they would no longer be giving diksa?
Consequently… Why can I not take diksa from … Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur… or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja, or anyone I want. The other point that I raise is why do we so quickly assume that the Diksa Guru accepts us? Is the Guru obliged to accept us as disciples? If the Guru does or does not, how are we to know?”
To get diksa from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura constitutes as jumping over the PROMINENT Acarya, Srila Prabhupada I have already covered this point in my article, “When I Order“.
How does the bonafide Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada accepts us:
Madhya 24.330 – The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse:
“In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.”
Srila Prabhupada indicated his desire to remain as Initiating Spiritual Master and the formalities were to be conducted by His Grace’s representatives as per his order of July 9th 1977. Please see my article, “Rtvik – **Representative**.
But just because the envious deviants — fake GBC manufactured self-made conditioned soul opportunist “gurus” have chosen NOT to be Srila Prabhupada’s REPRESENTATIVES, this does not mean Srila Prabhupada does not know how to guide a sincere soul who surrenders to him. He makes it very clear “the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.15 Purport – Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:
“By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.” A disciple should never be a hypocrite or be unfaithful to his spiritual master. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27), THE SPIRITUAL MASTER IS ALSO CALLED ACARYA. Acaryam mam vijaniyan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead says that one should respect the spiritual master, accepting him as the Lord Himself. Navamanyeta karhicit: one should not disrespect the acarya at any time. Na martya-buddhyasuyeta: one should never think the acarya an ordinary person. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt, but one should be very careful in one’s dealings with the acarya. Agadha-dhisanam dvijam: the acarya is a perfect brahmana and has unlimited intelligence in guiding the activities of his disciple.”
On July 7th, when setting up the Ritvik system, Srila Prabhupada states that the Ritvik Representatives could accept devotees as his disciples without consulting him. Thus, Srila Prabhupada was not involved in the process of screening, or approving new disciples. The Ritvik Representatives had full authority and discretion. Srila Prabhupada’s physical involvement was NOT required.
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, July 7, 1977, Vrindavan:
Srila Prabhupada: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is right. That will depend on discretion.
Tamal Krsna Goswami: On discretion.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Just because one has not been able to accept official initiation does not mean he is not Srila Prabhupada’s disciple. One can be Srila Prabhupada’s disciple even if he is not initiated officially:
Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dinesh, 31/10/69:
“…disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. ”
Srila Prabhupada Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh:
“Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge….. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.”
How does one become a disciple?
Madhya 24.256 – The Sixty-One Explanations of the Atmarama Verse:
The disciple must admit that he will no longer commit sinful activity-namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation.
Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-22-73:
Devotee (2): How important is formal initiation?
Prabhupada: Formal initiation means to accept, officially, to abide by the orders of Krsna and His representative. That is formal initiation. Officially accept, “Yes, sir, I shall accept. I shall do whatever you say.” This is initiation, official acceptance of the job. That’s all. Now, you formally accept, and if you do not do the duties, then where is the question of other function? There is no question. Initiation means this is the beginning of accepting the orders of Krsna and His representative to carry out. This is the beginning. That is initiation. Just like if you enter in an office establishment, so you accept the terms of service. That is initiation. Then you go on serving, you become promoted, you get salary increase. You become recognized. You become officer. You become big officer, like that.
Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, June 13, 1976, Detroit:
Srila Prabhupada: Who is my disciple? First of all let him follow strictly the disciplined rules. Disciple: As long as one is following, then he is… Srila Prabhupada: Then he is all right.
Srila Prabhupada Morning Walk, August 3, 1976, Mayapur:
“…unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline. “
Further readings on how the Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada accepts us:
Download: PDF
Disciplic_Succession.pdf
Hare Krsna Mahesh prabhu,
This fool ‘shoots himself in the foot’, as he states >>
“To get diksa from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura constitutes as jumping over the PROMINENT Acarya, Srila Prabhupada I have already covered this point in my article, “When I Order“.”
As he clearly declares that Srila Prabhupada IS the ‘PROMINENT’ acarya, therefore it follows that a prospective devotee should take initiation from that very same ‘PROMINENT’ acarya, Srila Prabhupada.
As Srila Prabhupada IS the “Founder & Acarya of ISKCON”, there is no question of jumping over him, as he is the current, prominent acarya to approach through his ritvik system of initiations, that he defined in his May conversations and July 9th letter, in RESPONSE to the GBC question… how will initiations be conducted, particularly at the time when YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US!
Simple logic, but not for those with ulterior motive for P A D!
Yfs,
Balaram das.
Dear Learned Readers,
Please note that the quote Balaram das Prabhu quoted in his comment seems to appear from Mahesh Raja Prabhu’s comments not from the ” fool ” as quoted i.e. Mahavidya Prabhu in his article ” How Are We to Know ” ?.
No doubt, Balaram das Prabhu has also very clearly and nicely responded in his comments with regard to the comments of Mahavidya das article which is very much appreciated, indeed.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna Amar Puri prabhu,
Thanks for the clarification re the quote. On first reading, I mistakenly thought the quote I included was a continuation of the one by the ‘fool’ that Mahesh prabhu posted and was a bit ambiguous.
However, yes I see it is actually Mahesh prabhu beginning his reply, so it wasn’t the ‘fool’ calling Srila Prabhupada the ‘Prominent Acarya’ (as they should anyway!).
The fools who have usurped ISKCON from Srila Prabhupada, love to use this argument in claiming that you can’t ‘jump over’ one of their ‘living’ (dead but still breathing) bogus rubber stamped unqualified guroos to take initiation from A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, anymore than you could jump over our Srila Prabhupada to take initiation from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or any of the previous Sampradaya Acaryas.
However, there is no question of ‘jumping over’ something that doesn’t exist, ie these bogus guroos are non existent in our Vaisnava Parampara, Srila Prabhupada being the Prominent link, Founder and ONLY Acarya of ISKCON.
Yfs, Balaram das.
Balaram das: However, there is no question of ‘jumping over’ something that doesn’t exist, ie these bogus guroos are non existent in our Vaisnava Parampara, Srila Prabhupada being the Prominent link, Founder and ONLY Acarya of ISKCON.
Mahesh: yes! – that is the TRUTH Balarama Prabhu. What they are doing is putting a BUNCH OF CONDITIONED SOUL ASSES VOTED-IN RUBBER-STAMPED as gurus BY THE BOGUS GBC and telling us you can not jump over these CROOKS as THEY SEE THEM as on equal level with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or any of the previous Sampradaya Acaryas.
The FACT is: NONE of their CONDITIONED SOUL GOONS rubber-stamped as gurus by the bogus GBC are PROMINENT ACARYA. They are just NOT part of the Vaisnava Parampara. Period. Where is the question of Jumping Over? All we are doing is jumping over the GOONS rubber-stamped as gurus by the bogus GBC and worshipping Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru as per July 9th 1977 Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER.
Note: the conditioned soul bunch of ASSES(rubber-stamped as gurus by bogus GBC) are worshiped by another bunch of ASSES(their so-called disciples) as gurus BECAUSE BOTH are ANIMALS: these ANIMALS can not accept the Ritvik System as per July 9th 1977 Srila Prabhupada’s ORDER and worship Srila Prabhupada as THE ONLY Diksa guru:
LCFL Life Comes From Life
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.
THIS VERSE INDICATES THAT THOSE WHO PRAISE MEN WHO ARE LIKE ANIMALS ARE NO BETTER THAN DOGS, HOGS, CAMELS AND ASSES. Sva means “dog,” vid-varaha means “stool-eating hog,” ustra means “camel,” and khara means “ass.” IF THE NOBEL PRIZE IS GIVEN TO A SCIENTIST WHO IS A RASCAL, THE MEN ON THE COMMITTEE WHO GIVE HIM THAT PRIZE ARE NO BETTER THAN DOGS, HOGS, CAMELS AND ASSES. WE DON’T ACCEPT THEM AS HUMAN BEINGS. ONE ANIMAL IS PRAISED BY ANOTHER ANIMAL. WHERE IS THE CREDIT IN THAT? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings.
Balaram Prabhu, you are very right that the ” LIVING ” GURU or ” DEAD” GURU sense of ” jumping over ” the Spiritual understanding has, no doubt, clouded the mind of hundreds and thousands of people in the present Iskcon all over the World.
That is why these gurus and their followers do not accept Srila Prabhupada being the Prominent Link of the Guru Parampara as the Founder Acaraya of the Iskcon in which He has not authorized any of His disciples as a Successor.
Therefore, the Cheating and the Cheaters business is being carried forward in the present Iskcon. It does not look like the Cheating business in the Iskcon will end any time sooner.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.