Feb 7, UK (SUN) — With regards to the souls falling and not falling from Vaikuntha, I give my understanding on it. Let’s take the two examples of not falling:
Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 and 3.16.26, purports:
“…the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable.”
and
“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”
Now, if we note below HOW Srila Prabhupada qualifies with the word USUALLY making it EVEN MORE CLEAR that the soul has got INDEPENDENCE to fall if HE CHOOSES TO FALL. IT IS THE SOUL’S CHOICE. OTHERWISE he DOES NOT FALL. I do not see ANY problem in this at all. So we can understand that generally speaking THE SOUL DOES NOT FALL BECAUSES HE DOES NOT MISUSE THAT INDEPENDENCE. How can we deny there is no independence? Force is not love. There has to be independence to love Krsna or not.
70-02-27 – Letter to Jagadisa:
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
Now, Srila Prabhupada is explaining of the constitution of the soul that it is MARGINAL ENERGY. Again this explains IN MORE DETAIL the INDEPENDENCE of the soul to live in VAIKUNTHA or not to. We cannot deny this fact.
69-10-27 – Letter to Upendra:
Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
71-10-09 – Letter to Upendra:
So far your question, the soul is fundamentally pure but he has an aptitude to come to the impure state of material contamination. He is therefore called tatastha or marginal. He has got the liberty of staying within the pure state or becoming contaminated. That is his choice. This marginal point can be understood in this way; just like you are standing on the shore of the sea. So you can remain on the land or sometimes you can jump into the water to enjoy as you will see on the beaches. So many young boys are enjoying. But that is dangerous at the same time. One who does not know swimming expertly well he may become drowned. Similarly the soul from the spiritual platform sometimes jumps over the material ocean of nescience. The Vedic knowledge gives him specific instruction how to swim over but if he is a rascal, he does not take the instruction through the bonafide representative, the spiritual master, and he becomes drowned. That is the position. The Vedic instruction is so nice that the soul, when he jumps over this material ocean, the Vedic instruction teaches him how to swim and come back again to the shore. This swimming process, according to Vedic instruction, is called sacrifice, charity and penance. One who learns these techniques of swimming over the ocean of nescience, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. One who does not take to this swimming process, he becomes drowned. In the Bhagavad-gita this is stated iccha dyesa samutthena . . . svarge yanti parantapa which means deluded by desire to enjoy the material world and becoming envious of Krishna, one comes to this material world. (Bhagavad-gita, 7.27). So read our literature profusely and you will get sufficient knowledge.
Now, Srila Prabhupada is explaining in graphic terms giving an example of a burnt hand in fire – ANYONE can grasp:
670218CC.SF Lectures:
Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he’ll never agree. He’ll never agree.
So in conclusion, we can see APPLICATION OF the philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE. He falls but he does not fall at the same time. Srila Prabhupada has explained it thoroughly below HOW the living entity came down – perfectly reasonable example. Why look for contradiction when in fact, the THE WHOLE PHILOSOPHY IS SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.
(by Mahesh Raja)
Download: PDF
Apparent_Contradiction_and_Reconciliation.pdf
Apparent Contradiction and Reconciliation !
Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 and 3.16.26, purports:
“…the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable.”
and
“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”
Quoting partial statement as stated above from SB.7.1.35 may seem apparently contradiction to the statement as described in SB. 3.16.26.
When the Reader reads its entire contents in its totality of the subject in the discussion, one can easily find and understand clearly that there are NO CONTRADICTION of any sort in our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
So, what is the use of head lining with ” Apparent Contradiction …..” of the Article as such when there is NON ?
Can some body please explain it ?
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh Raja prabhu has nicely explained as per guru, sadhu and sastra. Please allow me to share my views how I understood Mahesh Prabhu’s article.
Apparent means seeming contradiction (outwardly or superficially evident but not true or real). Srila Prabhupada has explained that academic scholarship has no entrance by means of logic and other arguments into the understanding of the transcendental subject matters. Only a guru can reconcile (make consistent) the apparent contradictions of Vedic statements. Therefore Lord Krishna advised in Bhagavad-gita 4.34, “Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.” Or, at the present age, we should approach Srila Prabhupada through his recorded books, lectures, videos, songs, letters, pictures, faithful followers and disciples.
From my own perspective I understand the above in the following way. It may seem unbelievable how a health insured person could ever get sick. Much more if there is an assurance that no one will at any time lose their health insurance. But the health insurance is not a guarantee that one may never “fall” from its natural healthy position. It only guarantees that no one will permanently stay in its unnatural diseased condition, but will get cured if he goes to the hospital.
Similarly, if we take to Srila Prabhupada as our medical doctor, Bhagavad-gita as the medical instructions, and Lord Krsna’s holy names and prasadam as the medicine, this is the assurance we will get cured and return back to our natural healthy position – return home, back to Godhead. And Srila Prabhupada has assured this to us.
So, the conclusion is, “No one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode (i.e. this fall down is not eternal (not forever, like the Christian concept of eternal hell) but only temporary; once you call for the help someone will hear you and send help for you so you may return back to your natural position).
The use of the term “fall” may have two meanings, depending on the context. In one context it may refer to non-permanent, and in another to permanent fall. In the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planets, there is no permanent fall (to eternal hell, eternal prison or eternal sickness, whatever you may call it), and that is the conclusion of guru, sadhu and sastra.
Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The verse in question (SB 7.1.35) reads:
“The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.”
This was spoken by Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He himself inquired: “For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.” (SB 7.1.34)
This is a very interesting statement. Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira does not believe that inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha can again fall to this material world. He said that is impossible.
In the purport to this verse Srila Prabhupada explains that it is difficult for an ordinary person to answer. Only the authorized guru (Narada Muni) can answer it:
“This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: “only you can explain the reason.” From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall.” (purport 7.1.35)
So the authoritative sources say that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha DO NOT actually fall.
So here is the explanation, namely that descending and falling are two different things. Srila Prabhupada than gives the full explanation:
“They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.”
So, the conclusion is, like Amar Puri says:
that there are NO CONTRADICTION of any sort in our Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada’s VANI.
“Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.”
The purport continues as follows:
“Of course, a living entity who desires sayujya-mukti remains in Krsna’s Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Krsna’s body (brahmano hi pratisthaham (BG 14.27)). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down.”
Here the comparison is given on the position of devotees and impersonalists. The purport was given to differentiate falling of the devotees and falling of the impersonalists, so we may not think that devotee’s fall and impersonalist’s fall are the same, although both are liberated souls, far from this miserable material atmosphere.
The term ‘otherwise’ means ‘apart from that’. In other words, if it was not the Supreme Lord’s desire to descend to this material world, they would not fall down to this material world, since they are associates of the Lord. Ordinarily (or generally; or otherwise, as used by Srila Prabhupada), the associates of the Lord do not fall from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha.
We may think that Jaya and Vijaya fell since they descended in material bodies like ordinary persons, but this is not so, as explained above by Narada Muni.
For the impersonalists when they return back to this material world, they do not descend to fulfill Lord’s desire, but actually fall because in Krsna’s Brahman effulgence there is no aspect of knowledge and bliss, but only eternity. A spirit soul cannot live only in eternity because the spirit soul is constituted of three aspects – eternity, knowledge and bliss. Therefore those who take shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down.
In this Bhagavatam story it is shown that even eternal associates of the Lord can fall from Vaikuntha, with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord. Otherwise no one falls from Vaikuntha.
In logic (philosophy, mathematics, programming, etc) there are general statements. But logic also allows exceptions (something that is not included in a rule or that does not behave in the expected way). Those exceptions do not nullify general statements.
“It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha” is a general statement.
“Eternal associates of the Lord – Jaya and Vijaya – fell from Vaikuntha” is an exception.
Similarly we can understand that,
“Eternally conditioned souls, like us, fell from Vaikuntha” is also an exception, and it does not invalid the general statement “It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha”. Therefore Srila Prabhupada used the term ‘otherwise’ (or ‘apart from that’). So, our spiritual master Srila Prabhupada is not contradicting himself. Unlike us, conditioned souls, Srila Prabhupada is free from mistakes, illusion, cheating and imperfection. We should not think that Srila Prabhupada is contradicting himself when he says that even those in Vaikunta, or Goloka, may fall down.
Hare Krsna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
pamho
agtACBSP,
the main point in all our phisolophy is that everything is moving within that transcendental i and mine of SRI SYAMA-SUNDARAM since time immemorial and things happen only if HE is agreed,nobody can change HIS SUPREME will because no one is superior to SRI ASAMAURDVAM ,of course we are also alien because we are just passing through this foreign land of maha maya full of misunderstanding challenges etc..
SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKUR were a great astrologer and HE say the same things happen only if SRI KRSNA is agree otherwise nothing happen and astrology can’t do nothing too because SRI KRSNA is the origin of everything
agtSP
ys haribol