Srila Prabhupada: “The so-called yogis, swamis, mayavadis, scientists, philosophers, political leaders, all are different types of glowworms, so in the darkness of cloudy night during the rainy season, the croaking of the frogs and glitterings of the glowworms are supposed to be very prominent. But as soon as there is clear sunlight or moonlight, all theseinsignificant glowing and croaking disappear. So our movement is Krishna. The Krishna Consciousness Movement is nondifferent from Krishna. If we therefore present the Krishna Consciousness in right earnestness, then certainly all theseinsignificant glowworms and frogs will have no more importance. Please therefore take it very seriously and do it on the right path which is not very difficult, then certainly we will come out victorious all over the world.”
Ritviks or Prabhupadanugas will never accept
the idea that a conditioned soul can be a diksa guru
By Vidura Mahatma das
Haribol mataji. Thank you so much for taking the time out to address each point. I would like to reply again to each of your replies now, if that is ok.
Anuttama dd: 1. The demons initially claimed to be pure devotee spiritual masters appointed by Srila Prabhupada. When this outrageous claim was exposed as a lie, instead of them being ousted by the society, they came up with this other outrageous idea: conditioned soul diksa gurus. However the devotees who accepted this were truthful about their level of spiritual advancement and told disciples that, for instance, the Samsara Prayers were for Srila Prabhupada, not for them. And they explain that it is Srila Prabhupada who will be taking them back to Godhead. Basically the devotees who accept disciples within ISKCON follow the ritvik understanding: the understanding in Srila Prabhupada’s books. The demons, however, that accept disciples tell the disciples that the Samsara Prayers are for them and that they are the only link to Srila Prabhupada.
VMD: The fact is that conditioned souls are claiming to be diksa gurus. Is this not a fact? And ISKCON members are accepting these conditioned souls as diksa gurus. Their rationalization can go on forever, but this is really what it comes down to. Ritviks or Prabhupadanugas will never accept the idea that a conditioned soul can be a diksa guru. Another major difference between the two parties.
Anuttama dd: 2. Living guru: agreed that is a very odd point. They can’t come up with a single reference in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Additionally, when Srila Prabhupada was asked what would happen when he was no longer living, he replied that he’d live forever in his books. Of course then the demons had to change the books.
VMD: Yes indeed, a very odd point, and also a big point. This is a major philosophical flaw and in fact a deviation in ISKCON and its members. Ritviks or Prabhupadanugas do not suffer from this deviation.
Anuttama dd: 3. Devotees within ISKCON are vocally against child abuse. It is only the demons who support the diabolical policies that encourage child abuse.
VMD: Regardless of whether they are vocally against child abuse, the fact is they are worshiping not only conditioned souls but either child molestors/abusers or their supporters. Let’s not forget ISKCON put Kirtanananda of all people into a samadhi, the highest honorable place for departed vaishnavas, in Mayapur dham. Where is the vocal opposition to this from any ISKCON member? Radhanath and every other guru have always supported Kirtanananda as well as other child molestors. Yet Radhanath is still a diksa guru in ISKCON. So once again, Iskcon members are willing to worship child molestors and/or men who have supported child molestors, as siksa gurus and diksa gurus. Ritviks will never do so.
Anuttama dd: 4. Offering bhoga. I’m not familiar enough with this to answer. I’m pretty sure that the ISKCON devotees who accept disciples instruct the disciple to offer first to Srila Prabhupada, but I’m not sure.
VMD: I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Every ISKCON temple i’ve been to there are pictures of their gurus on the altar while they do Deity worship and offer bhoga. Ritviks or Prabhupadanugas will never offer bhoga to a conditioned soul or any one but His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Another major difference between the two parties.
Anuttama dd: 5. The odd circumstances of Srila Prabhupada’s passing meant that the audio tapes went missing and there were all kinds of rumors. I don’t find it unreasonable that many devotees don’t give as much credence to the July 9th letter as they do to Srila Prabhupada’s published books. All of his instructions are in the books, including the fact that we’re expected to become gurus (teachers). It is more like we’re supposed to become proficient student teachers (siksas) who can help other students get the curriculum set up by Srila Prabhupada.
VMD: Srila Prabhupada’s ritvik order is crystal clear. Nobody denies the legitimacy of the July 9th letter, so it is not an issue of credence. It is an issue of flat out rejecting the clear, straight forward instructions given in the July 9th letter. The fact is Srila Prabhupada had used the ritvik system all along; Srila Prabhupada used representatives to recommend new initiates to him. He used representatives to make sure those new initiates were following strictly and were fit to be given initiation. The only thing that changed in 1977 was that Srila Prabhupada gave permission to ritvik representatives of his to accept the recommendations of temple presidents (also representatives) as he was doing and give them spiritual names, as he was doing. All of these were formalities. The new initiates were to be considered Srila Prabhupada’s disciples still, as stipulated in the July 9th letter, and as was the case since the beginning of ISKCON as well. I find very strange your suggestion that the July 9th letter was something new or incongruent with Srila Prabhupada’s books or with the way Srila Prabhupada organized the movement from the start.
On the whole, it seems that you are trying very hard to minimize the deviations within ISKCON and its members, to the extent that you are completely rationalizing-away reality and ignoring facts. This is not the way to save Srila Prabhupada’s movement. We can’t save the movement by rationalizing-away everything that is wrong with the movement. All I know is that first we have to understand what is wrong, where the deviations from Srila Prabhupada’s instructions are, and only then can we hope for any sort of positive change for the way things are today.
Sincerely,
Vidura Mahatma das
COMMENT: The definitive point that separates and distinguishes Srila Prabhupada from not only “the FAKE – profiling – wanna be gurus” but all living beings in this world of birth and death… it is unmistakably described the following words. Of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada… “There is an eternally impassible line of demarcation Between THE SAVIOR and the SAVED. Only those who are truly saved recognize and know this.”
There is no fuzzy ambiguous grey area. The Acharya Srila Prabupada descended from the Kingdom of God to this mundane pit of miserable life (shaktiaves avatar) to execute a great mission with the power of KRSNA/GOD imitating Prabupada may be more or less artfully exhibited by ambitious wannabes / like “ Elvis impersonators “ do with Elvis in this world… but after the show is over everyone picks up and goes home.
After reading this conversation, a few things come to mind,,,almost all ISKCON temples have policies that bhoga is offered to Deities first and then the parampara and then the ISKCON guru,,this is exactly opposite from how Srila Prabhupada gave us instructions in letters in early 1970s..Someone may ask how strange is the thinking of some long time temple devotees. Well now we can understand the effects of eating bhoga for long time and thinking it is prasad,,Another training for new initiates is called Bhakta sastri or similar title and almost all that you will find posted on this training course is required for new initiates and gurusand so there is an information war going on and all Prabhupadanugas are described as demons
And the item from the above article is that all iskcon gurus must completely agree on these points such as it is okay to worship a conditioned soul guru,,,,there is no training to distinguish between the two, So it is cheaters and cheated,,If someone sees that I have received votes and have disciples and karma is coming,. then one may be in state of not taking disciples,,so disastrous Hare Krsna
Anuttama dd: All of his instructions are in the books, including the fact that we’re expected to become gurus (teachers). It is more like we’re supposed to become proficient student teachers (siksas) who can help other students get the curriculum set up by Srila Prabhupada.
Mahesh: Same old disease how to capture and manipulate others as SLAVES in the name of Siksa guru. Siksa guru does NOT mean one has to accept disciples. ON THE CONTRARY: It is best NOT TO accept ANY disciples.
TEXT 130
ei mata yāṅra ghare kare prabhu bhikṣā
sei aiche kahe, tāṅre karāya ei śikṣā
SYNONYMS
ei mata—in this way; yāṅra—of whom; ghare—at the home; kare—does; prabhu—Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; bhikṣā—accepting prasāda; sei—that man; aiche—similarly; kahe—says; tāṅre—unto him; karāya—does; ei—this; śikṣā—enlightenment.
TRANSLATION
At whosoever’s house Śrī Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasāda, He would convert the dwellers to His saṅkīrtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brāhmaṇa named Kūrma.
PURPORT
The cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.
There are many sahajiyās who decry the activities of the six Gosvāmīs-Śrīla Rūpa, Sanātana, Raghunātha dāsa, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Jīva and Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmīs-who are the personal associates of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and who enlightened society by writing books on devotional service. Similarly, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura and other great ācāryas like Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya and others accepted many thousands of disciples to induce them to render devotional service. However, there is a class of sahajiyās who think that these activities are opposed to the principles of devotional service. Indeed, they consider such activities simply another phase of materialism. Thus opposing the principles of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they commit offenses at His lotus feet. They should better consider His instructions and, instead of seeking to be considered humble and meek, should refrain from criticizing the followers of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu who engage in preaching. To protect His preachers, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/madhya/7/130
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI: the disciples do NOT belong to Ritvik Representative:
77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple Presidents
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, SRILA PRABHUPADA INDICATED THAT SOON HE WOULD APPOINT SOME OF HIS SENIOR DISCIPLES TO ACT AS “RITVIK–REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:
His Holiness Kirtanananda Swami
His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami
His Holiness Jayapataka Swami
His Holiness Tamala Krsna Gosvami
His Holiness Hrdayananda Gosvami
His Holiness Bhavananda Gosvami
His Holiness Hamsaduta Swami
His Holiness Ramesvara Swami
His Holiness Harikesa Swami
His Grace Bhagavan dasa Adhikari
His Grace Jayatirtha dasa Adhikari
In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee’s initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives ARE NEAREST THEIR TEMPLE. AFTER CONSIDERING THE RECOMMENDATION, THESE REPRESENTATIVES MAY ACCEPT THE DEVOTEE AS AN INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA BY GIVING A SPIRITUAL NAME, OR IN THE CASE OF SECOND INITIATION, BY CHANTING ON THE GAYATRI THREAD, JUST AS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS DONE. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD, the above eleven senior devotees ACTING AS HIS REPRESENTATIVE. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace’s “Initiated Disciples” book.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anuttama dd: I don’t find it unreasonable that many devotees don’t give as much credence to the July 9th letter as they do to Srila Prabhupada’s published books
Mahesh: What a load of GARBAGE!!! July 9th 1977 letter is just AS GOOD AS Srila Prabhupada’s books – Srila Prabhupada SIGNED the Ritvik Order they are OUR SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS:
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters
The SERVICE of the spiritual master IS ESSENTIAL. IF THERE IS NO CHANCE TO SERVE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER DIRECTLY, A DEVOTEE SHOULD SERVE HIM BY REMEMBERING HIS INSTRUCTIONS. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SPIRITUAL MASTER’S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER HIMSELF. IN HIS ABSENCE, THEREFORE, HIS WORDS OF DIRECTION SHOULD BE THE PRIDE OF THE DISCIPLE.
Besutiful quote of Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you Vidura Mahatma prabhu.
Sri Sri Laxmi Narasinghadeva Ki Jay!
Srila Prabhupada Ki jay!
Well done everyone. A very nice class here on spiritual reality which I am sure you are relating to others as much as possible in your daily lives. Bravo! An article anyone around the world can appreciate and understand.
I would like to humbly change the title of this original article from “Ritviks or Prabhupadanugas will never accept the idea that a conditioned soul can be a diksa guru” to People are not accepting the idea that a conditioned soul can be a diksa guru”
It is not that one has to enter a particular designation to understand this. One has to find a particular teacher to help understand this. And what better teachers are there than those sincerely representing Srila Prabhupada in their daily lives. Expand your teaching and set up a On Line Classes: How To Become A Hare Krishna Devotee. Interactive and staffed with responses within 24 hours for feed back to those taking classes and following the lessons. These web sites are Srila Prabhupada’s web sites indeed his temples and in essence act as his Vyasasana.
Hasti Gopala dasa