How to Stay Sane in an Upside Down World
BY: MAYESVARA DASA
Oct 09, 2020 — IRELAND (SUN) —
The following is a reply to a letter sent to the Sampradaya Sun as a response to our recent article called “Game Over for the Earth Globe“. The letter is signed with the initials SRd. SRd writes:
“Devotees do not like to waste time, so why did I just read most of Mayesvara dasa’s rant on your website, Game Over for the Earth Globe? Srila Prabhupada said more than once that repetition is good. Does that mean that by asserting in this one article twenty five times that “the earth is not a globe”, M has imbued this nonsensicality with the force of instruction?
M claims to puzzle over the fact that Iskconers accept the earth as a globe, while sastra “clearly” states that it is a stationary disk held up by the hoods of Sesa naga. Is that not because some of them have been to Australia and seen the southern celestial dome – contiguous with the northern celestial dome – and experienced that we are all stuck to the surface of the earth by something like gravity, with no particular up or down otherwise? And with nothing but vast space in all directions, with no oceans of muck for the earth to sink or fall into?
Beyond that, Srila Prabhupada stated in this connection that the earth “fell from its orbit” and approved the ISKCON art depicting the spheroid earth being raised by Varaha Deva. So accept science, or accept Srila Prabhupada’s presentation…
“…hopefully once and for all… the game is over”, “Just as a king faced with checkmate… the Earth-globe has no…place to move in the Vedic cosmos.”
As a sort of devotee joke, this might be funny in some dark way, but it actually reads like a sad disclosure of one man’s senseless obsession. As such, it is embarrassing that you would parade his disability for the cruel amusement, or at best, disdain of your readership.
At the same time, I would like to thank you, and appreciate that you are maintaining an excellent site that offers special and unique writings on the subject of Krishna Consciousness.
Htmyw
SRd
I’m not exactly sure what Htmyw represents, but if SRd has an issue with the content of our work, I’m always willing to discuss whatever objections SRd may care to present. Contrary to what SRd claims, our attempt to accurately present the Srimad Bhagavatam’s conception of the Earth is not ‘one man’s senseless obsession’. It is an attempt to fulfill Srila Prabhupada’s instruction to ‘carefully study the details of the 5th Canto and make a working model of the universe’ (Letter to Svarupa Damodara, Auckland, 27 April, 1976). SRd may not take an accurate presentation of the fifth canto seriously, but it was a matter of priority for Srila Prabhupada who wished to present the transcendental world-view of Srimad Bhagavatam via the Temple of Vedic Planetarium:
Prabhupada: …that “We are intending to make a huge planetarium. If you can help us?”
Tamala Krishna: Mentioning the Fifth Canto, Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Exactly to the description of Fifth Canto, we want. (Room Conversation, May 8 1977, Hrishikesh)
In a letter to S.L. Dhani Srila Prabhupada mentioned fifteen aspects of Vedic cosmology that he wanted presented at the TOVP. I won’t include the whole letter here, but point 2 mentions the depiction of Bh-mandala, and point 9 mentions the depiction of Ananta-sesha:
“Now, here in India, we are planning construction of a very large “Vedic Planetarium” or “Temple of Understanding”. Within the planetarium we will construct a huge, detailed model of the universe as described in the text of the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam… The model will depict…
(2) The earthly system (bhu-mandala with Sumeru in center, seven islands (saptadvipa), seven oceans (sapta-samudra), Manosattara Parvata, Lokaloka Parvata, Alokavarsa…
(9) Garbhodakasayi Vishnu lying on Sesanaga on the Garbhodaka Ocean” (Letter to S.L. Dhani, 14 November 1976)
We have so far explained why ISKCON’s current presentation of the Earth in Vedic cosmology is not in line with the description of the Earth given in Srimad Bhagavatam. Neither the description of Ananta-sesha holding the Bhu-mandala, nor the description of Bharata-varsha’s location in Jambudvipa, corresponds in any way to the modern conception that the Earth is a globe-shaped planet floating in space. If SRd thinks otherwise, he is free to establish his case by explaining how the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of Bhu-mandala, and Bharata-varsha’s location upon it, corresponds to the modern belief that the Earth is a 24,900 miles globe floating in space:
“So according to Vedic civilization, whatever is stated in the Vedas, we take it-fact. That’s all. Shruti. Shruti-pramanam. Shruti means Vedas. Pramanam means evidence. According to Indian system… There are two persons talking, arguing, but the person who can give Vedic evidence, he is victorious. That’s all. That is the system. Just like in law court two lawyers are fighting, but the lawyer who is giving evidences from the law-book, he is accepted by the judge. And therefore, generally you will find, whenever we speak something, we give evidence from the Shastra in Sanskrit, in all our books. That is the way of proving that whatever I am speaking, it is fact.” (Room Conversation with Maharishi Impersonalists, April 7, 1972, Melbourne)
THE UPSIDE DOWN WORLD
The derisive tone of SRd’s reply sounds more that of a shill for scientism than that of a follower of Srimad Bhagavatam. Amazingly, SRd exemplifies the very attitude that we high-lighted in the previous article, namely that members of ISKCON skip over the description of Ananta-sesha holding the Earth as something inessential, inappreciable, and neither here nor there, rather than as something fundamental to how the followers of Sri-Krishna are to understand the nature of the Earth that they stand upon. SRd merely asserts that his own conditioned observation of the stars, along with his own unquestioned acceptance of ‘something like gravity’ is proof enough that reality can’t be as Srimad Bhagavatam describes it. Let us hear SRd’s point again:
“M claims to puzzle over the fact that Iskconers accept the earth as a globe, while sastra “clearly” states that it is a stationary disk held up by the hoods of Sesa naga. Is that not because some of them have been to Australia and seen the southern celestial dome – contiguous with the northern celestial dome – and experienced that we are all stuck to the surface of the earth by something like gravity, with no particular up or down otherwise? And with nothing but vast space in all directions, with no oceans of muck for the earth to sink or fall into”.
Let us remember that the Temple of Vedic Planetarium was conceived by Srila Prabhupada for the purpose of presenting the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of the universe. One may or may not believe this description, but that is not the issue here. The issue is whether Srila Prabhupada’s followers are going to accurately present and explain the Earth as it is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. My puzzlement is not that members of ISKCON believe the Earth to be globe, my puzzlement is why they continue to argue that Srimad Bhagavatam describes it as such.
The Srimad Bhagavatam describes that Ananta-sesha holds the Earth. SRd, of course, knows better, and asserts that the Earth is held by ‘something like gravity’. There is no inclination on SRd’s part to question the theory of gravity, nor is there any attempt to explain the appearance of stars based on Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of how the stars rotate above the circular Earth. There is not even an attempt on SRd’s part to grapple with the massive disparity between the two world-views. There is no attempt to explain what has become of Bhu-mandala and Ananta-sesha now that the Earth has metamorphosed into a globe. Nor is there any attempt to establish what the Earth globe is meant to represent within the Vedic cosmos. Does SRd think that the Earth globe represents Bhu-mandala, or does he think that it represents Bharata-varsha? We have presented our argument that the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of Bhu-mandala, and Bharata-varsha’s location upon it, does not correlate in any way with the idea that the Earth is a globe floating in space. We also find that the acharyas in their commentaries to the fifth canto never describe either Bhu-mandala or Bharata-varsha as a globe floating in space. Can SRd please clarify what the Earth globe idea corresponds to in the Vedic cosmological system.
It is perhaps maya’s sense of humour that after side-stepping the Puranic world-view, SRd once again propounds the completely irrational and illogical world-view of modern science that, “we are all stuck to the surface of the earth by something like gravity, with no particular up or down”.
Imagine if the man on top of the globe could dig a hole through the Earth with the prospect of meeting his lady friend on the opposite side. Would the man come out feet first, or would he come out head first? Logically the man should come out feet first, but that would mean, of course, that the man would be upside down in relation to the woman. No matter how the scientists try to spin it, it is logically impossible for the woman at the bottom of the globe to be in the same vertical position as the man at the top of the globe. The scientists can only employ a word spell to convince everyone that we live on a ball, upon which there is no particular up or down. Once scientism can convince a person that the Earth has no up or down, then it can convince a person of any illogical, irrational, absurd, and dangerous idea. How easy it was for the sociopaths to convince everyone that preventing the flow of breath by wearing a mask, standing six feet apart from the next person, and isolating oneself indoors without access to exercise and sunshine, is somehow conducive to one’s health. If people in the modern are going increasingly insane, we need look no further for a cause than the asuric cosmology which places humanity on an upside-down world that has no direction or purpose as it spins through an infinite dark space without a center or an end. The Srimad Bhagavatam, fortunately restores sanity by affirming that the Earth is stationary as we perceive, that we all stand vertical because we are situated on the same horizontal plane, and that we all observe the same stars and planets rotating above us. We do, however, observe the stars differently due to be being placed on distant places of the Earth.
SRd’s idea that we are observing the stars differently because of being situated on opposite sides of a globe contradicts the Srimad Bhagavatam’s teaching that the Sun, Moon, and stars are all rotating at respective heights above the Earth. According to Srimad Bhagavatam there are no stars in all directions of dark space as SRd asserts. According to Srimad Bhagavatam description, the stars are all rotating above the Earth in the upper half of the universe. The only thing beneath the Earth is the great Garbhodaka Ocean which fills the bottom half of the universe, and of course, Ananta-sesha who resides on the Garbhodaka Ocean and holds the Earth from below. SRd’s presentation of the stars is yet another example of an individual without any understanding of how the Vedic Universe is arranged, but who nonetheless speculates on a subject that they know nothing about.
Other members of ISKCON have previously cite the following interpolated verse from the Surya-siddhanta in order to convince fellow devotees that they live in an upside down world:
sarvatraiva mahigole svasthanamuparisthitam/
manyante khe yato golastasyakvorddham kvavapyadhah//53//“As the shape of the Earth is spherical (vartula), people in each place think themselves to be uppermost. But as the globe of earth is situated in ether, what then is its upper and lower side?” (Surya-siddhanta, Chapter 12, verse 53)
We shall explain how this verse is interpolated in later paper on the Surya-siddhanta, but for the moment we wish only to point out how the verse is presented as evidence for the globe without consideration of how it completely contradicts the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of the planetary arrangement. Firstly, there is never any attempt to explain this verse in the context of the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description that the Earth is held by Ananta-sesha, not that it is floating in the ether; nor is there any attempt to explain that Ananta-sesha holds a circular Earth (the Bhu-mandala), not that the Earth is described as being spherical; nor is there any attempt to explain that all the planets and stars are described in Srimad Bhagavatam as being above the Earth (uparistat), indicating that the Earth does indeed have an upper and lower side. How can members of ISKCON hope to get away with presenting Surya-siddhanta in a manner that contradicts Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of the Earth, Bharata-varsha’s location upon it, and the relative position and movement of the planets and stars which rotate above it?
The idea that members of ISKCON have reconciled the Srimad Bhagavatam with modern astronomy via the use of texts like Surya-siddhanta is not actually a reconciliation of the two world-views, rather it is a displacement of the Srimad Bhagavatam’s world-view in favour of the modern cosmological ideas. Whatever the merits of Surya-siddhanta as an astronomical text, it cannot be used in a manner that contradicts Srimad Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Vedic understanding means there is no different Vedic version.
(Room conversation, with reporter, June 4, 976, Los Angeles)
The upper side of the Earth refers to the surface of the Earth-circle on which all humans stand; the lower side of the Earth refers to the bottom of the Earth which is held by Ananta-sesha. Thus all humans stand on the same plane of the Earth and look up to observe the stars and planets rotating above (uparistat). The asuras and nagas meanwhile live within or below (adhastat) the surface of the Earth and do not see the stars and planets. The words uparistat (above) and adhastat (below) inform us that there is an upper and lower side to the universe. Indeed, unlike the so-called scientific idea of the universe which has no middle or end, and no top or bottom, the Vedic universe has a center (Mount Meru) and an end (the shell of the universe). The Vedic universe also has a top (Lord Vamana pierced the top of the universe allowing the Ganga to enter), and it has a bottom where the Garbhodaka Ocean is located. By understanding one’s relative position to Mount Meru which stands in the center of Bhu-mandala, one can understand one’s location in the universe which is enclosed by walls of the universal shell. The Vedic universe is three-dimensional having length, height, and width. It has an up and a down side. Let us try and understand up from down.
For the record, Srila Prabhupada did not accept the theory of gravity:
Prabhupada: That law of gravity is a bogus theory.
(Morning Walk, May 1975, Melbourne)
Through-out his purports, lectures and conversations, Srila Prabhupada consistently rejected the theory of gravity. SRd may have missed it!
I’m more than happy to discuss the anomalies in the modern explanation of gravity, the northern and celestial dome, etc., but before any engagement in debate with Western cosmological ideas, we wish to first see that SRd actually understands and accepts Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of the Earth-circle (Bhu-mandala) and Bharata-varsha’s location upon it. Otherwise I fear that I would be just arguing with someone who simply wants to defend their conditioned scientific world-view, and not with someone who wishes to discuss and understand the transcendental world-view of Srimad Bhagavatam. And that would certainly be a waste of mine, and everyone else’s time.
“You should not share this instruction with anyone who is hypocritical, atheistic, or dishonest, or with anyone who will not listen faithfully, who is not a devotee, or who is simply not humble”. (SB 11.29.30)
asusrusoh—to one who does not listen with faith
Lord Varāhadeva lifting the flat earth, Bhū-maṇḍala
VARAHA
SRd wrote: “Srila Prabhupada stated in this connection that the earth “fell from its orbit” and approved the ISKCON art depicting the spheroid earth being raised by Varaha Deva. So accept science, or accept Srila Prabhupada’s presentation…”
If SRd wonders why we have to repeat the same point 25 times, it is because individuals like SRd are not conscious of details in this argument that have already been settled. For example, during a discussion on the Bhu-mandala in 1977, Srila Prabhupada accepted that Varaha lifted the entire Bhu-mandala, not an Earth globe. We have discussed the issue here.
In the Brahma Purana, Sri Krishna says to Markandeya Rsi:
“It is I who assume the form of Sesha and hold aloft the Earth having the mountains Meru and Mandara as its ornaments and extending as far as the four oceans. O Brahmin, formerly this Earth was about to sink under water. Assuming the form of boar, it was lifted up by Me with My strength.” (Brahma Purana 53. 18-21)
Let us carefully note Sri-Krishna’s statement that ‘the Earth’ which has Mountains Meru and Mandara as its ornaments, and which is held aloft by Ananta-sesha, is the same Earth that was lifted by Lord Varaha after it sunk in the Garbhodaka Ocean. Mount Meru (which is the ornament of the Earth) is in the center of the Bhu-mandala, and is 100,000 yojanas (800,000 miles) high (see SB 5.16.7). Mandara is one of four mountains that stand at the foot of Mount Meru and measure 10,000 yojanas (80,000 miles) in height (See SB 5.16.11). Obviously such colossal mountains do not stand on the so-called Earth globe. From this statement by Krishna, we can understand that Ananta-sesha holds the colossal Bhu-mandala, and thus Varaha lifted the Bhu-mandala in its form as a massive Earth-circle, not in the form of a so-called Earth-globe. This is confirmed in Srimad Bhagavatam:
rupam idam ca saukaram bhu-mandalenatha data dhrtena te
Here it says that in the form of the boar (sukaram) you lifted the Earth (bhu-mandala) on your tusk (data). (SB 3.13,41)
If SRd is unable to distinguish between Bhu-mandala and the Earth globe, I suggest that he read chapters 16-26 of the fifth canto which begins with an inquiry into the size and shape of the Bhu-mandala:
“My dear Lord, the rolling wheels of Maharaja Priyavrata’s chariot created seven ditches, in which the seven oceans came into existence. Because of these seven oceans, Bhu-mandala is divided into seven islands. You have given a very general description of their measurement, names and characteristics. Now I wish to know of them in detail. Kindly fulfill my desire”. (SB 5.16.2)
If SRd thinks that it is a waste of his time to read Mayesvara dasa’s articles, then he can use his time constructively by studying the description of Bhu-mandala in the fifth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. To his surprise SRd will find that Sukadeva Goswami’s description of the shape, size, and characteristics of Bhu-mandala, as well as the description of Bharata-varsha’s location upon the Bhu-mandala, does not in any way correlate with his own belief that the Earth is an isolated globe floating in space. If SRd thinks otherwise, he is free to argue the case.
That Varaha lifted the entire Bhu-mandala and not an Earth globe is confirmed by carefully study of definitions and descriptions of the Earth in question. In the Caitanya Bhagavata, for example, Vrindavana dasa Thakura states:
sri-varaha-rupe kara prthivi uddhara
narasimha-rupe kara hiranya-vidara“In the form of Varaha, You delivered the Earth (prthivi), and in the form of Nrsimha, You tore apart the demon Hiranyakasipu.” Caitanya Bhagavata adi khanda 2.171)
Here the name for the Earth is Prthivi. What size is the Prthivi lifted by Varaha? In the following verse from the Caitanya-caritamrita, Krishna dasa Kaviraja Goswami describes the size and situation of the Earth:
pancasat-koti-yojana prithivi-vistara yanra eka-phane rahe sarshapa-akara
(Chaitanya Charitamrita, Adi-lila, 5.119)
In this verse it is stated that the Earth (prithvi) is 500 million yojanas (pancasat-koti-yojana) and rests (rahe) like a mustard seed (sarshapa-akara) on one of the hoods (eka phane) of Ananta-sesha. Although in Srila Prabhupada’s translation to this verse the name Prithvi has been translated as ‘universe’, the name Prithvi is a common name that refers specifically to the Earth:
“This Earth is called Bhumi, Vasundhara, Prthvi, Ksama, Ksoni, Dhara, and Mahi.” (Vishnudharmottara, Khanda 3, abhidhana Kosha), chapter 8, verse 8)
The above statement by Krishna das Kaviraja Goswami regarding the size of the Earth is confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam wherein the bhu-gola is described as having a diameter of 500 million yojanas or 4 billion miles:
pancasat-koti-ganitasya bhu-golasya (SB 5.20.38)
Srimad Bhagavatam also describes that the Bhu-gola is held by on the hood of Ananta-sesha, not that it is floating in space:
murdhany arpitam anuvat sahasra-murdhno bhu-golam (SB 5.25.12)
Whichever name the rishis cares to use when describing the Earth, the same thing is confirmed again and again, namely that Ananta-sesha holds the Earth with a diameter of 500 million yojanas, and it is this gigantic Earth that is lifted by Varaha after it becomes submerged in the Garbhodaka Ocean.
WHO IS EMBARRASSED?
Contrary to SRd’s claim that Rocana Prabhu’s publication of our papers is ’embarrassing’; it is rather to Rocana Prabhu’s credit that he follows the brahminical tradition of allowing a free and fair debate on issues in shastra. SRd’s sense of embarrassment most likely arises from the false pride of not wanting to be associated with the seemingly unscientific teaching that the Earth is held by a thousand-headed serpent. Though the contents of the fifth canto may be embarrassing to SRd’s scientific world-view, such lack of faith is his personal issue. Rather than deal with his own inability to accept the transcendental world-view of Srimad Bhagavatam, SRd deflects from the issue by reproving Rocana Prabhu’s editorial decision: ‘it is embarrassing that you would parade his disability for the cruel amusement, or at best, disdain of your readership’. We appreciate that members of the society may have difficultly in accepting the cosmology teachings of Srimad Bhagavatam, but one should put such doubts on the back-burner rather than indirectly criticizing Srimad Bhagavatam by reproving those who facilitate the discussion of alternate points of view. Vaishnavas should not be embarrassed by the glorification of Ananta-sesha. Vrindavana Dasa Thakura says:
ye ananta-namera sravana-sankirtane
ye-te mate kene nahi bole ye-te jane
asesha-janmera bandha chinde sei-kshane
ataeva vaishnava na chade kabhu tane“If we simply try to engage in the congregational chanting of the glories of Lord Anantadeva, the dirty things in our hearts, accumulated during many births, will immediately be washed away. Therefore a Vaishnava never loses an opportunity to glorify Anantadeva.
‘sesha’ ba-i samsarera gati nahi ara
anantera name sarva-jivera uddhara“Lord Anantadeva is known as Sesha [the unlimited end] because He ends our passage through this material world. Simply by chanting His glories, everyone can be liberated.” (Chaitanya Bhagavata, Adi Khanda, 1.62-64)
If SRd wishes to continue to discuss the issue, then he must first demonstrate that he actually understands and accepts the Puranic world-view. To that end, SRd can begin by explaining to us all, the location and situation of Bharata-varsha as it is described in Srimad Bhagavatam. Establishing the correct location and situation of Bharata-varsha in the Vedic Universe is the equivalent of establishing that 2+2=4. If we cannot agree that 2+2=4 then there are grounds for discussion. Likewise if SRd cannot accept the location and situation of Bharata-varsha as Sukadeva Goswami describes it, then there are no grounds for engaging in any further debate.
Just as SRd does not like to have his time wasted, I likewise, do not like to waste the time of others who read the Sampradaya Sun by having to constantly repeat the same basic facts to individuals who have evidently not taken the time to study the fifth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, nor to engage with the arguments that we have so far presented against ISKCON’s misrepresentation of the Earth in Vedic cosmology.
HOW TO STAY SANE IN THE UPSIDE DOWN WORLD
Our advice on how to stay sane in an upside down world, is to simply encourage everyone to stand right side up again by wholeheartedly accepting the Srimad Bhagavatam’s description of reality. Sukadeva Goswami said to King Pariksit:
“Your Majesty Maharaja Pariksit, know that all that I have described in reply to your proper inquiry is just according to the version of the Vedas (veda-gite), and it is eternal truth (sanatane). This was described personally by Lord Krishna (vasudevah) unto Brahma (brahmane), with whom the Lord was satisfied upon being properly worshiped”. (SB 2.2.32)
Since Sri-Krishna personally describes the nature of His own creation via Srimad Bhagavatam, why would a devotee of Sri-Krishna accept any contrary account of the Earth as authoritative? During the discussions on Bhu-mandala in 1977, Srlla Prabhupada said: “Take the version of Bhagavatam…We are not lying to you.” (Discussion on Bhu-mandala, July 5, 1977, Vrindavana). The Srimad Bhagavatam describes Bharata-varsha as a series of nine islands situated at the southern side of a massive circular landmass called Jambudvipa. We shall provide further details of this description in the second part of our series called Game Over for the Earth Globe.
Great photo of two conditioned souls reaching out to each other and not a Hare Krsna devotee in sight.
Not even Srila Prabhupada. Wasted time is revealed when the goal is reached through a simpler approach.
Not much time left, better get prepped, the karmis are.
761114 – Letter to S.L. Dhani written from Vrndavana
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
November 14, 1976
Deputy Secretary, 14 November, 1976
Krishna Balarama Mandir
Chattikara Road
Vrindaban, U.P.
Subject: The Times of India Article of November 7th 1976 concerning your paper on the Puranic theory of evolution.
Dear Sir,
The abovementioned International Society for Krishna Consciousness has published within the last ten years English translations of the Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam (Maha-purana), Caitanya Caritamrta, Isopanisad and many other volumes of India’s most ancient Vedic cultural heritage, which are now translated into French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Italian, Chinese, etc. and which are being purchased by the millions all over the world.
Now, here in India, we are planning construction of a very large “Vedic Planetarium” or “Temple of Understanding”. Within the planetarium we will construct a huge, detailed model of the universe as described in the text of the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Within the planetarium the model will be studied by onlookers from different levels by use of escalators. Detailed information will be given on open verandas at the different levels by means of dioramas, charts, films, etc.
The planetarium is planned to be approximately 400 feet high and will have floor space of approximately 90,000 sq. ft. The model will depict: (from bottom to top)
1) The lower planetary system (pataladi-saptaloka)
2) The earthly system (bhu-mandala with Sumeru in center, seven islands (saptadvipa), seven oceans (sapta-samudra), Manosattara Parvata, Lokaloka Parvata, Alokavarsa.
3) The Bhuvarloka (Siddha-caranadi-loka)
4) The upper planetary system (Svarga loka) beginning from the Sun, showing with electrial apparatus both its horizontal and vertical rotations, Rahu, the Moon, the Naksatras, the other seven planets ending with Saturn (Saniscara), the Saptarsis, and Dhruvaloka with Ksirodakasayi Visnu on the Ksirodaka ocean.
5) Maharloka
6) Janaloka
7) Tapoloka
8) Satyaloka
9) Garbhodakasayi Visnu lying on Sesanaga on the Garbhodaka ocean
10) The seven coverings of the universe
11) Sivaloka
12) Karanarnavasayi visnu lying on the Karana-samudra
13) Impersonal brahmajyoti
14) Vaikunthaloka with the various Visnumurtis
15) Goloka Vrndavana
This model (approximately 200 feet high and 100 feet wide) will be engineered to suspend from the structure of the dome and rotate according to the real movement of the planets. The plans for this very large project are being taken solely from the references found in fifth canto Srimad Bhagavatam and its authoritative commentaries by important acaryas, along with other Puranas and Samhitas like Brahma-samhita etc.
As you can appreciate, the work involved in this project will be gigantic and the advice of many experts from all fields will be needed to make it come out successful. It will be a glorious exhibition of India’s Vedic culture that will attract visitors from all the world. I am inquisitive to know how you can help us with this project, as I know you are an expert in the field of Puranic astronomy. Hoping to hear from you in the near future.
Faithfully yours,
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
ACBS/jda
reply c/o:
Saurabh Das
Hare Krishan Land
Gandhi Gram Rd.
Juhu, Bombay 400049
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note: EARTHLY system:
2) The EARTHLY system (bhu-mandala with Sumeru in center, seven islands (saptadvipa), SEVEN oceans (sapta-samudra), Manosattara Parvata, Lokaloka Parvata, Alokavarsa.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mayesvara das:
As we shall see in Sections 1.2 and 1.3 neither Bhu-mandala nor the seven islands of Bhu-mandala are globe-shaped, and anyone familiar with the layout of the Bhu-mandala landscape would not use that term. The image below (figure 2) shows the inner portion of Bhu-mandala with its series of seven islands and oceans that radiate in concentric circles for a distance of 202,800,000 miles, and bearing no resemblance whatsoever to the size, shape, and characteristics of the continents of our known Earth area.
https://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-16/editorials14106.htm
Mahesh: this mental speculative theory of CONCENTRIC CIRCLES with seven Islands and oceans is CONTRADICTION to Srila Prabhupada’s words:
Note: SEVEN oceans (sapta-samudra): THESE ARE ON PLANETS:
Seated on His chariot with Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa began to proceed north, crossing over many planetary systems. These are described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as sapta-dvīpa. Dvīpa means island. ALL THESE PLANETS ARE SOMETIMES DESCRIBED IN THE VEDIC LITERATURE AS DVIPAS. THE PLANET ON WHICH WE ARE LIVING IS CALLED JAMBŪDVĪPA. OUTER SPACE IS TAKEN AS A GREAT OCEAN OF AIR, AND WITHIN THAT GREAT OCEAN OF AIR THERE ARE MANY ISLANDS, WHICH ARE THE DIFFERENT PLANETS. IN EACH AND EVERY PLANET THERE ARE OCEANS ALSO. IN SOME OF THE PLANETS, THE OCEANS ARE OF SALT WATER, AND IN SOME OF THEM THERE ARE OCEANS OF MILK. IN OTHERS THERE ARE OCEANS OF LIQUOR, AND IN OTHERS THERE ARE OCEANS OF GHEE OR OIL. THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF MOUNTAINS ALSO. EACH AND EVERY PLANET HAS A DIFFERENT TYPE OF ATMOSPHERE.
Second Volume, Thirty-fourth Chapter, of Kṛṣṇa, “The Superexcellent Power of Kṛṣṇa.”
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/kb/2/34
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Prabhupāda: (indistinct) full of living entities, and the moon planet there is no living entity. They are doubting also in the Mars planet. But we get information from the śāstra that every planet is full of living entities. Every planet. Janakīrṇa. THIS VERY WORD IS SAID IN THE ŚRĪMAD-BHĀGAVATAM, JANAKĪRṆA, AND THERE IS VIVID DESCRIPTION OF DIFFERENT PLANETS AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF OCEANS, JUST LIKE MILK OCEAN. WE HAVE GOT HERE EXAMPLES, SWEET WATER AND SALTED WATER. SO THERE IS SWEET OCEAN ALSO. THAT IS MENTIONED IN THE ŚĀSTRA. NOT THAT IN THIS PLANET THERE IS SALTED OCEAN AND… THERE ARE OTHER PLANETS WHERE THERE IS SWEET WATER OCEAN AND MILK OCEAN AND LIQUOR OCEAN AND OIL OCEAN, GHEE OCEAN, BUTTER OCEAN, MILK, BUTTER OCEAN, AND SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES.
So if we bring everything to our conception, that becomes cintya, conceivable, but that is not the fact. Therefore here it is stated, acintya-jñāna-gocarāḥ. We have to receive this knowledge from sources which can inform us about all these things inconceivable by us. It is not possible to bring the inconceivable within our conceivable limit. That is not possible. That is foolishness. Mūḍha. Mūḍha will not believe.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/classes/cc/madhya/20/113/london/july/23/1976
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The SEVEN ISLANDS (DVĪPAS) are known as (1)JAMBU, (2) Śāka, (3) Śālmalī, (4) Kuśa, (5) Krauñca, (6)Gomeda, or Plakṣa, and (7) Puṣkara.
The PLANETS are called DVĪPA. Outer space is like an ocean of air. just as there are islands in the watery ocean, THESE PLANETS in the ocean of space are called DVĪPAS, OR ISLANDS IN OUTERSPACE.
There are nine khaṇḍas, known as (1) Bhārata,(2) Kinnara, (3) Hari, (4) Kuru, (5) Hiraṇmaya, (6) Ramyaka, (7)Ilāvṛta, (8) Bhadrāśva and (9) Ketumāla. THESE ARE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE JAMBŪDVĪPA. A valley between two mountains is called akhaṇḍa or varṣa.
Link to this page:https://prabhupadabooks.com/cc/madhya/20/218
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EARTHLY PLANETS:
TEXT 12
matsyo yugānta-samayemanunopalabdhaḥ
kṣoṇīmayonikhila-jīva-nikāya-ketaḥ
visraṁsitān uru-bhayesalile mukhān me
ādāya tatra vijahāra haveda-mārgān
SYNONYMS
matsyaḥ—incarnation of thefish; yuga-anta—at the end of the millennium; samaye—at the timeof; manunā—the would-be Vaivasvata Manu; upalabdhaḥ—seen;kṣoṇīmayaḥ—up to the earthly planets; nikhila—all;jīva—living entities; nikāya-ketaḥ—shelter for;visraṁsitān—emanating from; uru—great; bhaye—out of fear;salile—in the water; mukhāt—from the mouth; me—mine;ādāya—having taken to; tatra—there; vijahāra—enjoyed;ha—certainly; veda-mārgān—all the Vedas.
TRANSLATION
At the end of the millennium,the would-be Vaivasvata Manu, of the name Satyavrata, would see thatthe Lord in the fish incarnation is the shelter of all kinds ofliving entities, up to those in the EARTHLY PLANETS. Becauseof my fear of the vast water at the end of the millennium, the Vedascome out of my [Brahmā’s] mouth, and the Lord enjoys those vastwaters and protects the Vedas.
PURPORT
During one day of Brahmāthere are fourteen Manus, and at the end of each Manu there isdevastation up to THE EARTHLY PLANETS, and the vast water is fearful even to Brahmā. So in the beginning of thewould-be Vaivasvata Manu, such devastation would be seen by him.There would be many other incidents also, such as the killing of thefamous Śaṅkhāsura. This foretelling is by the past experience ofBrahmājī, who knew that in that fearful devastating scene, theVedas would come out of his mouth, but the Lord in His fishincarnation not only would save all living entities, namely the demigods, animals, men and great sages, but would also save the Vedas.
Link to this page:https://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/2/7/12
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Note: Bhu(earth) Mandala(group) comprises SAPTA-DVIPA Seven ISLANDS(dvipas/PLANETS)
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Note: Those misleading photos Mayesvara das showing upside down planet earth with people and buildings is lacking his serious understanding of the subject. He wants to show that it is not practical for earth to be GLOBE. He does NOT undersand HOW the living entites are not falling:
Sun planet it is ALSO a GLOBE, Moon planet is ALSO a GLOBE are the living entities there falling off?????
Note: “Since they are floating under the order or energy of the Supreme Godhead, they do not fall down into the water which covers half the universe. All the planets are heavy, with their various mountains, seas, oceans, cities, palaces and buildings, and yet they are floating. It is understood from this passage that all the other planets that are floating in the air have oceans and mountains similar to those on this planet.”
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The material scientist explains that all these different planets are floating because of the law of gravity or some other law; but the actual lawmaker is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When we speak of law, we must understand that there must be a lawmaker. The material scientists can discover laws of nature, but they are unable to recognize the lawmaker. From Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā we can know who the lawmaker is: the lawmaker is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
It is said here that the planets do not sink. Since they are floating under the order or energy of the Supreme Godhead, they do not fall down into the water which covers half the universe. All the planets are heavy, with their various mountains, seas, oceans, cities, palaces and buildings, and yet they are floating. It is understood from this passage that all the other planets that are floating in the air have oceans and mountains similar to those on this planet.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/sb/3/29/42
Hare Krishna.
Another disappointing article from Mayeswara dasa from Ireland. very poor attempt. And as usual a very imbalanced article based on one part of the Vedic jigsaw. He comes across as if he is obsessed rather than to further the positive debate on the Universal situation as explained in ALL of the Vedic evidence. he obviously has not read the entire literature that Srila Prabhupada presented and all Srila Prabhupada’s conversations, morning walks and lectures.
And again his writings are far from the truth, so inaccurate and poorly presented. There are some particular parts that evidence he is on the mental platform and notionally speculates what he believes the truth to be but he is wrong all the time. And i am more into Cow Protection than the Universal situation. I have spent a lifetime reading Srila Prabhupada’s Vani on Cow Protection , Agriculture, Simple Living, Community and a Symbiotic Economy.
One elementary mistake Mayeswara dasa makes is to not look more deeply into the subject and takes all the evidence superficially and literally, which shows his immaturity. This is a sign of disingenuous practice. For example he says Bhu-mandala is 500 million yojanas. But what he has not grasped is there are two definitions of the word “bhu-mandala” not one definition.. The first definition is the inner shell of the Universe called Bhu-Mandala which is 500 million yojanas in circumference and the other is the Bhu-Mandala that is a disc shaped infrastructure that is 496,600 million yojanas in circumference. So there is a gap between them of 3,400 million yojanas.
Srila Vishvanath Cakravarti Thakura and Vamisdhara Goswami have revised the measurement of the Bhu-mandala infrastructure down from 500,000,000 yojanas to 496.600,000 yojanas . This is calculated by twice the sum of the following distance in lakhs of yojanas.
1, 157.5 from Mount Meru to Manasottara Mountain.
2 96 from there to the outer shore of the clear water ocean.
3 157.5 for the width of the uninhabited land.
4 822 ( or 4times 157.5 +2 times 96) for the width of the Golden Land bounded by Lokaloka Mountain and
5 1,250 for Aloka-varsa , which lies beyond Lokaloka Mountain.
As a result of this revised value for the diameter of the Bhu-mandala infrastructure there is a gap of 17 lakhs of yojanas between the mandala disc and the shell of the Universe . The commentators point out that this critical gap makes it possible for Bhu-mandala to move within the Universal shell. This makes it meaningful for it to be supported by Ananta Sesa, and it also allows it to be immersed in the Garbhodaka Ocean to be lifted by Lord Varaha. What we understand from this is that the earth lifted by Lord Varaha is the complete Bhu-mandala and not the small earth globe of our experience.
This is just one simply example of where Mayeswara dasa is interpreting the information he receives in the 5th Canto. What he actually does is to limit his own understanding through notional techniques of research.
All the way through his writings he makes mistakes commonly.
Another one is his teaching of Rocana being a follower of Brahminical Tradition and allowing free and fair debate. This as all readers of Prabhupadanugas know is absolute nonsense and far from the truth.
I have written many articles against Mayeswara’s articles on numerous occasions that were not published by Rocana because he said i was a Ritvik Preacher as if that had a bearing on what i wrote about Bhu-mandala. Rocana is neither a follower of brahminical tradition , whatever that is, and is neither fair nor free and does not uphold open debates on any subject. it has to suit Rocana for him to publish it. So Mayeswara’s notional speculative concept about the nature of Rocana is completely wrong.
If Mayeswara dasa wants to have an open debate then there is only one place to publish and thats on this site. Rocana’s site is not open debate, nor free or fair, and Dandavats.com site is completely closed down for open debate. So i am in the middle of compiling an article on the Spherical earth globe planet, where we live, of our experience and i hope when it gets to publishment then Mayeswara dasa reads it and starts to understand the relationship between Bhu-mandala and the Earth Globe.
” The Earth floats in space among many millions of other planets, all of them bearing huge mountains and oceans. It floats because Krishna enters into it, as stated in Bhagavad-gita As It Is (gam avisya), just as He enters the atom. The earth is certainly not weightless, rather, it is very heavy. But it floats because the Supreme Spirit is within it.”
” Only under certain conditions do the planets float as weightless balls in the air, and as soon as these conditions are disturbed, the planets may fall down in the Garbhodaka Ocean, which covers half the universe. The other half is the spherical dome within which the innumerable planetary systems exist. The floating of the planets in the weightless air is due to the inner constitution of the globes, and the modernized drilling of the Earth to exploit oil from within is a sort of disturbance by the modern demons and can result in a greatly harmful reaction to the floating condition of the Earth.”
Some quotes from Srila Prabhupada.from Srimad Bhagavatam
Philosophy Discussion on Charles Darwin:
Prabhupāda: At least he has no power to see everything. That is a fact. He’s not so powerful that he can see everywhere and everything. That you have to accept. He has limited power to see. By that limited power to see he cannot conclude that one species (is) extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, your senses by which you are (indistinct), they’re limited. So how you can say, “This is finished,” or “This is that.” That is not to be accepted. Because your senses are imperfect. You cannot see. You cannot search out. Have you searched out all the earthly layers or the 25,000 miles everywhere? That is not possible for you. The whole earthly planet is circumference is 25,000 miles, radius how many, has he discovered that all the places?
I have to agree that Rocan das does not facilitate free speech. His site was once a vibrant exchange and sharing of ideas, but unfortunately Rocan’s heavy-handed editing technique appears to have stifled that almost to the man. No one goes there anymore. He would often change words or sentences in my articles, and changed one of my headings which detracted from the point of said article. He does not seem to understand that every word is potent and is placed in a particular way for a reason. Unfortunately Rocan seems to think he is the only writer out there. His approach smacks of the very thing he criticises in the GBC – a superiority complex of ‘senior ACBSP’s wherein everyone else is beneath them, (and often in need of ‘correcting’). Sadly his site has become a yawnfest of dry articles about ancient kings and obscure broken palaces. Very boring nerd-zone. He got what he wanted I guess, full control.
SRN: I have to agree that Rocan das does not facilitate free speech.
Mahesh: he was part and parcel of their so called “Guru Reform Club” 1986 . As per Madhya 24.330 only Maha bhagavata is Diksa guru. There is no question of reforming Mahabhagavata:
ONLY MAHA-BHAGAVATA IS DIKSA GURU: Srila Prabhupada is OUR Diksa Guru For As Long as His Books Are On The Planet
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41422
The whole Anti Ritvik Propaganda is about screwing MONEY:
Money—– speaks many languages – ESPECIALLY in ISKCON’S Anti Ritvik circles:
SALARIES
Financial statements for the year ended 31 December 2015
Bhaktivedanta Manor (UK)
259649 –
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS LIMITED
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=259649&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList
==================================================================
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_AC_20151231_E_C.pdf
==================================================================
Wages and Salaries: £1,658,355
Employees: 172
No employee received emoluments in excess off £60,000
Does not exactly say who or how many got paid up to £60,000.
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SALARIES
Soho St Temple – London(UK)
1132794 –
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS LONDON
Accounts for 31 Dec 2015:
received 07 Oct 2016
Annual Return for 31 Dec 2015:
received 07 Oct 2016
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1132794&SubsidiaryNumber=0
=======================================================
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends94/0001132794_AC_20151231_E_C.pdf
=======================================================
Wages and Salaries: £443,967
Employees: 45
No employee received emoluments in excess off £60,000
Does not exactly say who or how many got paid up to £60,000.
Wages and salaries £443,967
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2459.htm
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41633
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Concerning The Actual, Legal Identity Of The BBT
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47020
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/bbti-stolen-copyrights.html
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/iskcon-crime.html