In Vaikuntha not even the Leaves Fall
The treatise “In Vaikuntha not even the Leaves Fall” is a systematic and thorough analysis of the bondage of the soul or jīva according to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava theology. It was written in 1994 to settle a philosophical controversy that arose within ISKCON (International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness) over the origin of the jīva in its conditioned existence. The book was banned by ISKCON and has since become an “underground” classic. Only very few hard copies are left. The book is now also available on AMAZON as Kindle E-book:
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This five-part treatise:
– Presents clear understanding of the nature of the jīva, which is essential for the practice of bhakti yoga.
– Cites ISKCON’s predecessor ācaryas Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī on the jīva’s origin.
– References the writings of Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Founder Acarya of ISKCON, who sometimes said that no one falls from the highest spiritual abode, Vaikuṇṭha, and at other times stated that jīvas fell from Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes.
– Gives evidence from Śruti, Vedānta Sūtra, Govinda Bhāśya, Āgama, and the Nārada Bhakti Sūtra.
– Cites further evidence from Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, and Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī.
– Explains in detail the term anādi (lit.,“beginningless”), which is used by the ācaryas to describe the conditioned jīvas.
– Provides historical examples of similar preaching strategies used by ISKCON’s predecessor ācāryas, including Śrīla Vyāsadeva.
– Reconciles the siddhānta of no fall with Śrīla Prabhupāda’s statements that the jīva fell from Vaikuṇṭha.
This book does not contradict Śrīla Prabhupāda nor does it minimize his position or criticises anyone. In this book, I have tried to synthesize the view of Śrīla Prabhupāda with the statements of our previous ācaryas. Satyanarayana Dasa–
„The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.” (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) – „The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world.” (SB, 5.11.12)
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The history behind the making of this book
by Satyanarayana Dasa–
There is a long history behind the making of this book.
Here I will just give a summary. I wrote the book in 1994 to settle a philosophical controversy that arose within ISKCON (International Society of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness) over the origin of the jīva in its conditioned existence. At that time, I had been serving as a Sanskrit teacher in the Bhaktivedanta Swami International Gurukula, Vrindavan. Although my service was to teach Sanskrit to Gurukula students, I also had begun teaching śāstras privately in my room at the request of several local devotees. I taught various books, including Bhagavad Gītā and Śrīmad Bhāgavata with the Sanskrit commentaries of our previous ācaryas. Incidentally, this was also the period when I was studying under my teacher, Om Viṣṇupāda Śrī Śrī 108 Śrī Haridāsa Śāstri Mahārāja.
One of the books that I began teaching was Śrī Tattva Sandarbha of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, which is the first of the six books of the Ṣaṭ Sandarbha. Around this time (1988), Bhūrijana prabhu started the Vrindavan Institute of Higher Education (VIHE), which offered one-month courses on different subjects during the month of Kārtik. I taught the first two Sandarbhas as part of the VIHE for two consecutive years.
While I was teaching Tattva Sandarbha, some devotees proposed that I should translate the Six Sandarbhas of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. Although feeling unqualified, I took up this project as a service to the devotees and the paramparā. Kūrma Rūpa prabhu, who was an āśrama teacher at the Gurukula and my good friend, volunteered to do the editing. Jālandhara, a gurukula student, typed out my handwritten manuscripts. On Kūrma Rūpa prabhu’s request, Kuṇḍalī prabhu also came to Vrindavan and joined our Sandarbha project. Kuṇḍalī prabhu had been living in Thailand, working as an English teacher, and had experience as an editor for Back To Godhead magazine.
Kuṇḍalī prabhu began attending my classes and was impressed with the work of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī and with my commentaries on the Sandarbhas. He thought what I was doing was unique in the whole of ISKCON and that therefore, the Sandarbhas should be published by the BBT.
From my part, I wanted to have an educational institute in ISKCON where devotees could systematically study the Gosvāmī literature. I observed that although Śrīla Prabhupāda had successfully founded ISKCON, a great preaching movement, and established hundreds of temples worldwide, the movement seemed to lack a place to deeply study the scriptures. I felt that we should fill in this lacuna for the benefit of the devotees and Śrīla Prabhupāda’s society and thus formulated the idea of establishing the Jiva Institute for Vaiṣṇava Studies. My plan was to primarily translate and comment on the works of our previous ācaryas and to teach them to interested devotees. Both Kūrma Rūpa and Kuṇḍalī prabhus were enthusiastic about the idea, so we printed a small booklet describing the aims and objectives of Jiva Institute, which we called, in short, JIVAS.
From an ISKCON-leaflet 1994: Babaji Satyanarayana Dasa with team.
To solicit support for our plan, Kuṇḍalī prabhu sent a proposal to Harikeśa Swami, a prominent ISKCON guru, BBT trustee, and director of the Swedish BBT, which was one of the BBT’s most active and flourishing divisions. Kuṇḍalī’s proposal included the translation work that we were doing and our future plan to have an educational institute. He also sent him a draft of my translation and commentary on Tattva Sandarbha. Harikeśa Swami was highly impressed by the proposal and our work, so much so that he wrote that after Śrīla Prabhupāda’s books, these books would be most important. He was one of the prominent GBCs of the Māyāpur project and for years had not visited Vrindavan. However, he came to Vrindavan to meet me, being eager to manifest the Jiva Institute.
Harikeśa Swami had long talks with me and raised various questions to understand my real intention. Being convinced of its importance and utility, he decided to support the entire project financially, to print the Sandarbhas under the Swedish BBT, to buy land for Jīva Institute, and to fund the construction. The Swedish BBT purchased a large piece of land very close to where Jīva Institute is located today. Construction work soon began under the supervision of Kāliya Kṛṣṇa prabhu, a disciple of Harikeśa Swami and the headmaster of Bhaktivedanta Swami International Gurukula. Harikeśa Swami also appointed Gopīparāṇadhana prabhu, who had worked on the Śrīmad Bhāgavata volumes printed after Śrīla Prabhupāda’s departure, to be our Sanskrit editor. Draviḍa prabhu was appointed as the final English editor. Upendrānatha prabhu had also joined us in Vrindavan, helping with typing and proofreading. We thus had a team of nine people.
The project was moving at great speed and full enthusiasm, and there was growing excitement about it in ISKCON at large, and especially at ISKCON Vrindavan. While teaching the Sandarbhas in the VIHE, however, a controversy arose over the issue of the conditioning of the living entity, the jīva. Śrī Jiva Gosvāmī clearly states that the jīva’s conditioning in the material world has no beginning and that no one can fall down from Vaikuṇṭha. He uses the word anādi (lit., beginningless) to describe the conditioning of the jīva.
My Sanskrit editor Gopīparāṇadhana prabhu was reluctant to accept my translation of anādi as beginningless. He proposed to translate it as “from time immemorial” to accommodate the ISKCON understanding that the jīva has fallen down from Vaikuṇṭha.
The controversy soon spread throughout ISKCON. We received many emails from devotees in different parts of the world, presenting their arguments against our view. There were also devotees supportive of us who shared their arguments and śāstric references.
When Tattva Sandarbha was almost ready to go to print in 1994, the translation of the word anādi was still unresolved. Gopīparāṇadhana and Draviḍa did not agree with my translation and explanation of the term; they therefore complained to the BBT trustees. The BBT then appointed Jayādvaita Swami to meet with us and mediate the controversy before the annual GBC meetings held at ISKCON headquarters in Mayapur, West Bengal. This is a time when temple presidents and GBC members meet to discuss various issues and institutional policies before the Gaura Pūrṇimā festival.
In Mayapur, Kuṇḍalī and I held long discussions with our two editors in the presence of Jayādvaita Swami. The issue, however, could not be resolved because the editors as well as the mediator refused to accept my translation and explanation of the word anādi. Since the book was to be published by the BBT, a meeting was held with all the BBT trustees. I was very firm on my view, while Gopīparāṇadhana, Draviḍa, and Jayādvaita Swami were firm on theirs. They proposed that I change my translation and accept the popular ISKCON understanding. I refused, because doing so would undermine the words of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī himself. To resolve the conflict, I suggested that Gopīparāṇadhana translate the Sandarbhas and write the commentaries himself. I offered my assistance with the translation work on the condition that my name not be mentioned in the work. Gopīparāṇadhana refused to accept this solution and said that he was incompetent to translate and comment upon the Sandarbhas.
After more discussion, the trustees proposed that my translation and commentary be published without changes. However, a footnote would be added to explain Śrīla Prabhupāda’s position, which differs from that of Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. The footnote would include acknowledgment that ācaryas do have differences of opinion and that there was no harm in bringing out this difference. Kuṇḍalī and I agreed to this suggestion, but Gopīparāṇadhana, Draviḍa, and Jayādvaita Swami were still opposed.
At that time, Harikeśa Swami put pressure on Gopīparāṇadhana and Draviḍa to cooperate. Both devotees were receiving monthly remuneration from Harikeśa Swami for their contributions to the project. Therefore, after a long struggle, they agreed. With the consent of the BBT trustees, it was thus decided that Tattva Sandarbha would be printed with a footnote, explaining the opinion of Śrīla Prabhupāda.
After the meetings, we returned to Vrindavan and sent the final manuscript of the book to the Swedish BBT for printing. However, Gopīparāṇadhana, Draviḍa, and Jayādvaita Swami had not agreed from their hearts. When they returned to the United States, they made a plan to sabotage the printing. They held a meeting among themselves and with other devotees such as Hṛdayānanda dāsa Goswami, and devised a plan to stop the publication, utilizing a letter written by Drutakarma prabhu, which was published in the original Forward of this book. This letter was sent to all GBC members, temple presidents, and prominent ISKCON devotees. When Harikeśa Swami received the letter, he realized that he would be heavily criticized by ISKCON leaders if he printed the book under the auspices of the Swedish BBT. It is my conjecture that to avoid this, he immediately scraped the project, calling his disciple Kāliya Kṛṣṇa Dāsa in Vrindavan to inform him that the Sandarbha project was cancelled.
When Kāliya Kṛṣṇa relayed this news to me, I was taken aback. No explanation was given, so Kuṇḍalī called Harikeśa Swami to ask the reason for the cancellation. Harikeśa Swami simply forwarded Drutakarma’s letter in reply.
This happened on Janmāṣṭamī, so I accepted the decision as the will of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, although it was very disheartening at that time. The dream that we had nurtured for so long and that was about to manifest was crushed in a moment.
Anticipating some hidden grace from Kṛṣṇa in this whole drama, I decided not to take action against Drutakarma’s letter. I had a meeting with Kuṇḍalī and Kūrma Rūpa prabhus, my closest supporters, about our next step. We decided to print Tattva Sandarbha on our own, which we did a year later. However, Kuṇḍalī prabhu was not satisfied with this alone as he was a fiery person and loved to debate. During the period of controversy, we had numerous email exchanges with different devotees who tried to refute our point of view. Kuṇḍalī loved handling all such communication, as I had no access to a computer.
We coined the term fall-vādis for our opponents, who believe that the jīva falls down from Vaikuṇṭha out of envy for Śrī Kṛṣṇa. I had no intention of writing anything other than what Kuṇḍalī had already written during his communication with other devotees. The letter of Drutakarma, however, made him furious and he wanted to give a fitting reply. Therefore he prodded me to write a detailed refutation of the arguments presented by fall-vadis and to end the controversy once and for all. For this purpose, he presented me with a summary of their arguments.
It was on his inspiration that I wrote the first draft of this book. To give it a little sense of humor, we entitled it “In Vaikuṇṭha Not Even the Leaves Fall.” Kuṇḍalī prabhu edited my first draft and added material he had compiled from different sources. Kūrma Rūpa prabhu did the typing and Navadvīpa prabhu gladly agreed to edit it. We wrote, edited, and printed the book in about four months and then sent copies to Mayapur with Upendranātha prabhu to sell at the annual festival of 1995.
To our dismay, as soon as the books were displayed in Māyāpur, ISKCON authorities confiscated them and Upendranātha was not allowed to sell any copies. I received a phone call from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Gosvāmī, the GBC of the Vrindavan temple, asking me to come to Māyāpur immediately and to appear before the GBC board. Kūrma Rūpa and I then traveled from Vrindavan to Māyāpur. The GBC had formed a sub-committee to deal with the issue. We first appeared before the sub-committee where I had to explain why I had written the book. I told them that I had written the book to explain the truth and that I didn’t haven a hidden agenda to deviate ISKCON from śāstric principles or to become a prominent ISKCON leader, as alleged by Drutakarma in his letter. They could not argue on the philosophical points, but asserted that the book would be a great disturbance to the devotee community and therefore should be banned. I answered, “First of all, we do not know if it will disturb or satisfy the devotees. I suggest that you select a random sample of 100 devotees. Let them read the book and then see if they are disturbed by it.” My second argument was, “What I presented is not my concoction but is the view of our previous ācaryas, which is based on śāstra. Thus it is truth. If a devotee is disturbed by knowing the truth, then he is not truly a devotee.” The sub-committee did not accept my arguments and insisted that my book would be a great disturbance.
Since they were in the majority and I was alone, I had no desire to continue arguing. Their arguments were not logical nor could they present śāstric references to refute mine. They reported to the full GBC board that this book is very dangerous and would create a disturbance throughout ISKCON. The next day I was called to appear before the full GBC body, where I was again asked why I wrote the book. I gave my reply and they again stated their reasoning that the book would be a disturbance to the society. They therefore decided to ban this book. Along with this decision, they stipulated that I was not allowed to study outside of ISKCON nor was I allowed to give public lectures. I was only permitted to continue my service as a Sanskrit teacher at the Gurukula.
After some contemplation, I realized that my time in ISKCON was over. I had given 16 years of my youthful life in the service of ISKCON and Śrīla Prabhupāda and now had to leave to follow my convictions. Overnight I lost my connections and acquaintances, all of which were ISKCON-related. I was branded as “ an envious snake,” “a demon,” and “a killer of Prabhupāda.” I began my life anew, from scratch. This is how I left ISKCON and came to establish Jiva Institute, with the help of my family members.
Every Gaudīya Vaiṣṇava wanting to understand the nature of the jīva should read this book. Śrī Jiva Gosvāmī explains that the essence of śāstra is to impart knowledge about sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana. Sambandha includes knowledge about the jīva and its relationship with Bhāgavan. It is crucial for an aspiring devotee to have clear understanding of the nature of the jīva to engage in abhidheya or the practice of bhakti to attain the ultimate goal, the prayojana. If our first step is misplaced, we cannot expect to reach the ultimate goal as enunciated in the Gosvāmī literature.
This book does not attack Śrīla Prabhupāda, ISKCON or anyone else; nor does it minimize Śrīla Prabhupāda’s position, or assert that he was wrong. Instead, it attempts to synthesize his views with the statements of our previous ācaryas. Satyanarayana Dasa–
“In Vaikuṇṭha Not Even the Leaves Fall” – Summary
This book consists of five parts or waves. Each wave is divided into chapters. The First Wave presents the conclusion or siddhānta of the Gauḍīya school and the verdict of the śāstra on the jīva’s bondage. Within the First Wave, the first three chapters relate the explanations ISKCON’s predecessor ācaryas Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatīon the jīva’s origin and the three types of jīvas. The Fourth Chapter gives references from the writings of Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Founder Acarya of ISKCON, who sometimes said that no one falls from the highest spiritual abode, Vaikuṇṭha, and at other times stated that jīvas fell from Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes. Why Prabhupāda made seemingly contradictory statements on this issue is answered in the Second Wave. The Fifth Chapter of the First Wave gives evidence from Śruti, Vedānta Sūtra, Govinda Bhāśya, Āgama, and the Nārada Bhakti Sūtra, all of which deny the possibility of a fall-down from Vaikuntha. Chapter Six gives further evidence from Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī and Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s commentaries on Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Chapter Seven includes evidence from the writings of Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Dāsa Gosvāmī, and Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī – the most prominent Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava ācaryas. In the following chapters of the First Wave, the term anādi (lit.,“beginningless”) is explained in detail. It is the philosophical term most commonly used by the ācaryas for describing the conditioned jīvas and is often misunderstood.
In the Second Wave, while establishing that preaching does not always mean presenting the siddhānta, we cite some historical examples of such preaching strategies being used by ISKCON’s predecessor ācāryas, including Śrīla Vyāsadeva. We conclude this wave by reconciling the siddhānta of no fall with Śrīla Prabhupāda’s statements that the jīva fell from Vaikuṇṭha. The Third Wave refutes the main objections of those who believe that the jīva fell from the spiritual world and became conditioned. In the Fourth Wave, more scriptural and logical arguments in favor of the no-fall down siddhānta are presented. The Fifth and last Wave lists the many philosophical inconsistencies in accepting a doctrine that eternally liberated spiritual beings, nitya-siddhas, can fall from Vaikuṇṭha, and then states the conclusion.
For some devotees, this book was a turning point in their spiritual lives. If you would like to share your realizations with other interested readers, please consider leaving a review on Amazon.
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Feb 7, UK (SUN) — With regards to the souls falling and not falling from Vaikuntha, I give my understanding on it. Let’s take the two examples of not falling:
Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 and 3.16.26, purports:
“…the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable.”
and
“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”
Now, if we note below HOW Srila Prabhupada qualifies with the word USUALLY making it EVEN MORE CLEAR that the soul has got INDEPENDENCE to fall if HE CHOOSES TO FALL. IT IS THE SOUL’S CHOICE. OTHERWISE he DOES NOT FALL. I do not see ANY problem in this at all. So we can understand that generally speaking THE SOUL DOES NOT FALL BECAUSES HE DOES NOT MISUSE THAT INDEPENDENCE. How can we deny there is no independence? Force is not love. There has to be independence to love Krsna or not.
70-02-27 – Letter to Jagadisa:
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
Now, Srila Prabhupada is explaining of the constitution of the soul that it is MARGINAL ENERGY. Again this explains IN MORE DETAIL the INDEPENDENCE of the soul to live in VAIKUNTHA or not to. We cannot deny this fact.
69-10-27 – Letter to Upendra:
Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
71-10-09 – Letter to Upendra:
So far your question, the soul is fundamentally pure but he has an aptitude to come to the impure state of material contamination. He is therefore called tatastha or marginal. He has got the liberty of staying within the pure state or becoming contaminated. That is his choice. This marginal point can be understood in this way; just like you are standing on the shore of the sea. So you can remain on the land or sometimes you can jump into the water to enjoy as you will see on the beaches. So many young boys are enjoying. But that is dangerous at the same time. One who does not know swimming expertly well he may become drowned. Similarly the soul from the spiritual platform sometimes jumps over the material ocean of nescience. The Vedic knowledge gives him specific instruction how to swim over but if he is a rascal, he does not take the instruction through the bonafide representative, the spiritual master, and he becomes drowned. That is the position. The Vedic instruction is so nice that the soul, when he jumps over this material ocean, the Vedic instruction teaches him how to swim and come back again to the shore. This swimming process, according to Vedic instruction, is called sacrifice, charity and penance. One who learns these techniques of swimming over the ocean of nescience, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. One who does not take to this swimming process, he becomes drowned. In the Bhagavad-gita this is stated iccha dyesa samutthena . . . svarge yanti parantapa which means deluded by desire to enjoy the material world and becoming envious of Krishna, one comes to this material world. (Bhagavad-gita, 7.27). So read our literature profusely and you will get sufficient knowledge.
Now, Srila Prabhupada is explaining in graphic terms giving an example of a burnt hand in fire – ANYONE can grasp:
670218CC.SF Lectures:
Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he’ll never agree. He’ll never agree.
So in conclusion, we can see APPLICATION OF the philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE. He falls but he does not fall at the same time. Srila Prabhupada has explained it thoroughly below HOW the living entity came down – perfectly reasonable example. Why look for contradiction when in fact, the THE WHOLE PHILOSOPHY IS SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.
(by Mahesh Raja)
https://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=47310
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By Mahesh Raja
Two statements from Bhaktivedanta Vedabase to back-up that the letter “Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic” WAS INFACT FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA.
“2.3.1 “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”
In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society”
“80) THAT the GBC suggests that devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the”fall of the jiva” read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic. The paper came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”
Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic
We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.
Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.
We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.
So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.
So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.
BECAUSE HE FALLS DOWN FROM BRAHMASAYUJYA, HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRSNA. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.
On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.
Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.
Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don’t waste your time with this “Kaka taliya nyaya,” crows and tal-fruit logic.
760708ed.wdc Conversations
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT. ICCHA-DVESA SAMUTTHENA SARGE YANTI PARANTAPA. FIND OUT THIS VERSE.
Pusta Krsna:
iccha-dvesa samutthena
dvandva-mohena bharata
sarva-bhutani sammoham
sarge yanti parantapa
“O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc.,
thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’ These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupada: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga
Regarding your question, “what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?”, in the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya’s atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant
devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a
spiritual body, they come down again to the material world. In the
Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the lord that the only way of not coming
back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. for
the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the
whole vedic literature. The conclusion is that without developing the
spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets,
the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. A SPIRIT
SOUL WHO FALLS DOWN FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI TO THE KINGDOM OF MAYA MAY HAVE A CHANCE OF ASSOCIATING WITH A PURE DEVOTEE, AND THEN HE MAY BE ELEVATED TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS OF VAIKUNTHA OR TO GOLOKA VRINDABAN. FROM THE BRAHMAJYOTI THERE IS NO DIRECT PROMOTION TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANETS, AND IT IS CLEARLY STATED IN THE BHAGAVATAM THAT SUCH SOULS FALL DOWN: PATANTY ADHA.
70-02-27. Letter: Jagadisa
Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s
influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship
with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE
WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. BUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY IT IS FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA, SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED BY THE PROCESS OF HEARING THE HOLY NAME OF KRSNA AND THEN THE DEVOTEE ENGAGES HIMSELF IN THE SERVICE OF THE LORD WHICH IS HIS ORIGINAL OR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION. THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE LIVING ENTITY WITH KRSNA IS ETERNAL AS
BOTH KRSNA AND THE LIVING ENTITY ARE ETERNAL; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
70-04-25. Letter: Jagadisa
Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned
souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord
Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH
MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS THE CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUSE OF ONE’S INDEPENDENCE. BUT THOSE WHO ARE FIRMLY FIXED UP IN DEVOTIONAL SERVICE TO KRSNA ARE MAKING PROPER USE OF THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND SO THEY DO NOT FALL DOWN.
67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa
The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is
superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken
ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness
is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use
the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So
as ETERNAL SERVITORS OF KRISHNA–OUR CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION–WE FALL DOWN WHEN WE TRY TO BECOME THE ENJOYER, IMITATING KRISHNA. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by
Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya.
K.C. gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this
service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please
therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by
His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of
course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have.
69-06-07. Letter: Uttamasloka
Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to receive your letter (undated), and I have noted the contents that you had left the temple but now you have returned again. This is most encouraging, because it means that Krishna is very kind upon you. Although you left Him, He did not allow you to go away. It is His special favor upon you. As individuals there may be disagreement sometimes, but that is quite natural. Even in ordinary family affairs there is sometimes disagreement, but that does not mean immediately the disagreeing members shall leave the family. Similarly our Krishna Consciousness Movement means we are all gathering together in families of Krishna. ACTUALLY WE ARE ETERNAL FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE LORD, BUT DUE TO OUR MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE WE HAVE NOW FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN WHO IS MAD FORGETS HIS FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND LOITERS IN THE STREET. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna’s family. So we are trying to establish a replica of Krishna’s family in this material world wherein there is no material activities. To avoid the material activities means to follow the four regulative principles and to engage ourselves constantly in Krishna Consciousness activities and to have the association of pure devotees. We should not give indulgence to our senses more than what is required just to keep body and soul together. We should not engage ourselves in very difficult tasks, and we should not talk anything more than what is necessary for spreading Krishna Consciousness. We should follow the regulative principles, regard being had to situation, circumstances and objectives. We should not be greedy and we should not mix with persons not interested in Krishna. In this way, we can make steady progress and maintain our membership in Krishna’s family. Thus, at the end of this life we will enter actually into the spiritual world. So your main business should be to spread Sankirtana, becoming tolerant as the tree and becoming humbler than the grass. If you have anytime any difficulty, please try to settle up in the above way, but do not leave the company of devotees. That will not help you, even though there may seem to be some difficulties.
.740606BG.GEN Lectures
Just like father gives some capital to the son: “You do some business.” Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you. Similarly, Krsna has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Krsna has given us. THE FIRST BEGINNING BODY IS BRAHMA, VERY EXALTED BODY. BUT ON ACCOUNT OF OUR ABOMINABLE ACTIVITIES, FROM BRAHMA, WE COME DOWN TO BECOME THE WORM OF STOOL. This is called karma, ksetra.
“Bg Introduction
Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship.
Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:
KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa’: “Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna. The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage–the stage of observing the rules and regulations–and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord. The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA ‘SVARUPA’ HAYA–KRSNERA ‘NITYA-DASA’: “Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA.” As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage. Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of “I” and mine.
Further evidence:
68-12-02. Letter: Rayarama
The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE MARGINAL ENERGY JIVA SOULS HAVE FALLEN FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, JUST LIKE JAYA AND VIJAYA. SO THE POTENCY TO FALL UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE LOWER ENERGY IS ALWAYS THERE. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s MARGINAL ENERGY.
69-10-27. Letter: Upendra
Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY, EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHA LOKA, HAS CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN. THEREFORE THE LIVING ENTITY IS CALLED MARGINAL ENERGY. BUT WHEN THE FALLDOWN HAS TAKEN PLACE FOR THE CONDITIONED SOUL IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
71-10-09. Letter: Upendra
So far your question, the soul is fundamentally pure but he has an aptitude to come to the impure state of material contamination. HE IS THEREFORE CALLED TATASTHA OR MARGINAL. HE HAS GOT THE LIBERTY OF STAYING WITHIN THE PURE STATE OR BECOMING CONTAMINATED. THAT IS HIS CHOICE. THIS MARGINAL POINT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD IN THIS WAY; JUST LIKE YOU ARE STANDING ON THE SHORE OF THE SEA. SO YOU CAN REMAIN ON THE LAND OR SOMETIMES YOU CAN JUMP INTO THE WATER TO ENJOY AS YOU WILL SEE ON THE BEACHES. So many young boys are enjoying. But that is dangerous at the same time. One who does not know swimming expertly well he may become drowned. SIMILARLY THE SOUL FROM THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM SOMETIMES JUMPS OVER THE MATERIAL OCEAN OF NESCIENCE. The Vedic knowledge gives him specific instruction how to swim over but if he is a rascal, he does not take the instruction through the bonafide representative, the spiritual master, and he becomes drowned. That is the position. The Vedic instruction is so nice that the soul, when he jumps over this material ocean, the Vedic instruction teaches him how to swim and come back again to the shore. This swimming process, according to Vedic instruction, is called sacrifice, charity and penance. One who learns these techniques of swimming over the ocean of nescience, he goes back to home, back to Godhead. One who does not take to this swimming process, he becomes drowned. In the Bhagavad-gita this is stated iccha dyesa samutthena . . . svarge yanti parantapa which means deluded by desire to enjoy the material world and becoming envious of Krishna, one comes to this material world. (Bhagavad-gita, 7.27). So read our literature profusely and you will get sufficient knowledge.
670218CC.SF Lectures
Ravindra-svarupa: If the brahmajyoti is in the spiritual sky, how could we reach it in our mind? Is it in our mind also?
Prabhupada: It is here also. Just like the sunshine, when it is covered by cloud, the sunshine is also there. Do you follow? You see that the sky is covered, but still you say, “It is day.” Why? The sunshine is there. Similarly, brahmajyoti is here also. Sarvam khalu iti brahma: “Everything is Brahman.” But it is covered by maya. Therefore the full-fledged brahmajyoti, you cannot see.
Ravindra-svarupa: I thought it was a place that was far away.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is… Just like above the cloud there is sunshine, fully. We have seen it in an aeroplane. This airlines, U.S. airlines, they say, “Friendly skies.” So go to the friendly sky. Why do you remain here, nonsense sky, always covered with cloud? Go to the friendly sky. Just go above the cloud. The cloud is maya. Go above the maya. Then you see. You are seeing already, but it is not full-fledged experience. Everything we are seeing. We have experienced God’s power, God’s energy. But because we are in ignorance, therefore we cannot conceive perfectly. And as soon as you are above the maya… Mayam etam taranti te. That maya you can, I mean to say, surpass simply by Krsna consciousness. As you become full-fledged Krsna conscious, oh, then you see always brahmajyoti and Brahman and Krsna and everything. And so far your present condition is, you are seeing also just now. Because without Brahman, there cannot be any existence. So one has to learn. In the flower you can see. In the tree you can see. In the taste you can see. In the water you can see. In the sound you can see. That is all stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya: “I am the taste of the water.” Water is so popular, so tasteful, to every living entity. Man, beast, birds–anyone–water requires. Why? There is a nice taste, quench our thirst. And Krsna says, raso ‘ham apsu kaunteya: “That taste in water, I am.” So if you are Krsna conscious, if you know from the sastras that “This taste is Krsna,” then at once you become Krsna conscious while drinking water. “I am sound in the sky.” So, as soon as there is some sound, “Oh, here is Krsna.” In this way, you study Krsna. You’ll see. In the taste of water you’ll find Krsna. In the sound vibration you’ll find Krsna. If there is somebody very powerful, you’ll find him, Krsna. This description are there in the Bhagavad-gita. This is Krsna consciousness. Yes?
Devotee: Swamiji, I’m trying to… You said that, one time, that brahmajyoti is like the pure light, and it’s filtered in the material world through the modes?
Prabhupada: Yes. Material world means three modes.
Devotee: So is that like…? Well… Because the modes don’t exist in the spiritual world. Is that right?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like if you go above the cloud, there is no cloud. That’s all. But there is. In a certain portion of the sky, there is cloud. And that cloud is also not permanent. Sometimes sky is clear of all clouds, but sometimes cloud is there. The cloud is generating in the sky and it is vanquished in the sky. Similarly, this material world is sometimes being manifested and sometimes there is no manifestation, simply spiritual. Spiritual is always eternal. The sky, sunshine, is always eternal. Take this crude example. But the cloud is not eternal. It comes and goes, although cloud is a product of the same sunshine. Cloud is not independent. By interaction of sunshine, there is cloud, and that cloud is… There is no cloud. Similarly, this material world is just like cloud. It appears. It acts. When there is cloud, there is torrents of rain. Oh, there are so many productions on account of rain. Everything becomes green. So we give so much importance to the cloud, and it is important also, but it is temporary. As soon as the cloud is over, the greenness is gone. There is no rain. Nothing, nothing. And when the sky is clear, you’ll see, “Oh, where is cloud? Where is cloud?” Similarly, this maya means it appears like the cloud, and it disappears like the cloud, but the eternal brahmajyoti remains.
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us for to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Bhaktijana: Did Krsna create us to serve Him?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhaktijana: And to enjoy us?
Prabhupada: Yes. Very nice. So we should prepare ourselves to our healthy condition. That is our healthy condition. As soon as we understand that Krsna created us… Krsna created… There is no creation. Just like if I say that my hand is created, no, it is not created. As long as the body is there, the hand is there. Otherwise, there is no meaning of body. Similarly, we are not created. Krsna is always there; we are also always there. And there are millions and millions of liberated souls who are engaged in Krsna. They never misuse their independence. And we small quantity, we misused our independence. We wanted to enjoy separately. Therefore we are conditioned.
Bhaktijana: But there are, there are many…?
Prabhupada: …liberated souls. They are never conditioned. They never become conditioned. Yes?
Devotee: You mean they never were conditioned at any time or…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: You said there were millions of souls…
Prabhupada: Yes. They were never conditioned. They were never conditioned, never conditioned. They are called nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. We are only simple few, this material world. Just like I have several times told you that the prison house. The population of prison house is nothing in comparison to the whole population. What is there? Suppose in New York there is a prison house. Oh, what may be the number? A few thousand maybe. But here, millions. Similarly, the liberated souls are millions; we are only few thousands, or hundreds. Ekamsena sthito jagat. We are thinking this universe is very great. It is nothing in comparison to the whole creation of the Lord. You are seeing only universe, but there are millions of universes like this. All together, they are ekamsena sthito jagat. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This is only a part of Krsna’s creation. One devotee of Lord Krsna, er, Lord Caitanya, requested, “My dear Lord, You have come to deliver all the fallen souls. You please take all the conditioned souls of this universe, and if You think they are not competent, they are sinful, You can give me all the sin to me. I shall suffer for them, but You kindly take.” So this is the desire of a pure devotee, that “All may go with Krsna. Let them become liberated. I shall suffer all their…” Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that “Suppose I keep your request. I take these, all the living entities of this universe. Do you think, is there any loss of this material world? It is just like a one mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds.” So this universe is just like one mustard seed in one big bag of mustard seeds. Can you count how many mustard seeds are there in a big bag? So the idea was that Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied that “Even this universe is delivered fully, oh, there is a big bag of mustard seeds. It is only one grain.” There are so many conditioned souls, and these conditioned souls are only insignificant in comparison to the liberated souls. Just imagine what is the quantity of liberated souls.
Bhaktijana: How could we make a poor choice if we were part and parcel of Krsna? How could we have chosen the material world?
Prabhupada: Oh, because you have got independence. Don’t you see so many students come. They go away again. Yesterday Kirtanananda went to call Ranchora. He said, “Oh, I have forgotten this!” So you can forget. There is another student. He was also our student, Wally. “Oh, you can go immediately!” Suppose if you… “Oh, I don’t care for this Krsna consciousness Society. Who calls you? You can go.” That independence is there. We can misuse.
Bhaktijana: But Krsna will always be there if we want to go back?
Prabhupada: Eh? Krsna is always prepared to accept you. He’s always prepared. But because He has given us independence, we misuse it and we fall under the clutches of maya. That is our misfortune. We create this misfortune, and we can create our good fortune. “Man is the architect of his own fortune.” So if you become Krsna conscious, it is to your good fortune. If you become maya conscious, it is to your bad fortune. You are the creator.
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all…, do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that “I am meant for Krsna’s service,” and they are happy in Krsna’s service.
Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
Prabhupada: YES, THEY CAN MISUSE IT ALSO. THAT POWER IS THERE. Yes?
Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.
Prabhupada: NO! THERE IS POSSIBILITY, BUT HE DOES NOT COME. JUST LIKE AFTER PUTTING YOUR HAND IN THE FIRE, YOU NEVER PUT IT AGAIN IF YOU ARE REALLY INTELLIGENT. SO THOSE WHO ARE GOING BACK TO GODHEAD, THEY BECOME INTELLIGENT. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. So if one is intelligent enough, if he has got actually the bitter taste of this material world, he’ll never agree. He’ll never agree. But those who have not advanced to such knowledge, oh, they think, “Oh, this material enjoyment is very nice. Let me taste it and let me do business in my sannyasi life, and stealthily and privately, let me enjoy.” These things are going on. That means they have no taste. They come to hospital-making or this philanthropy. This come again. Sthanad bhrastad patanty adhah. Ye ‘nye aravindaksa vimukta-maninah. “Those fools who are thinking that ‘Simply by thinking myself, “I am God, I am Brahman, I have become liberated,” ‘ ” but ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavat, “but there is no knowledge about You, Krsna,” aruhya krcchrena param padam, “they, after performing so much austerity and penances, they rise up to the highest position, Brahman realization, but,” patanty adhah, “they fall down.” We have got so many instances. They take sannyasa. They say that brahma satyam jagan mithya: “This world is false. Brahman is truth.” But after some days, they come to politics, they come to sociology, they come to hospital, they come to this and that. That’s all. Finished. Brahman finished. Patanty adhah. They must fall down because they have no shelter in Krsna. Just like the sputnik goes very high, clap, hear clap. Uh, come down again. Where you’ll go? Yes. Simply for the time being clapping, that’s all. (laughs) But the fools, they are so nonsense, they are satisfied with that temporary clapping. That’s all.
Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated?
Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know.
Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated…
Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end)
730513mw.la Conversations
Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.
Prabhupada: HE HAS GOT ALREADY SPIRITUAL BODY. MATERIAL BODY IS HIS COVERING. IT IS UNNATURAL. REAL BODY IS SPIRITUAL. JUST LIKE YOUR COAT, THIS IS UNNATURAL. BUT YOUR REAL BODY IS NATURAL. OTHERWISE HOW TRANSMIGRATION IS POSSIBLE? I AM ACCEPTING DIFFERENT UNNATURAL BODIES. UNNATURAL MEANS TO MY CONSTITUTION. MY REAL CONSTITUTIONAL BODY IS SERVANT OF KRSNA. SO, SO LONG I DO NOT COME TO THAT POSITION, I REMAIN SERVANT OF NATURE AND I GET SO MANY BODIES. According to the nature’s direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma. He is a rascal. He is thinking, “I am this body.” Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrarudhani mayaya. Maya has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
Svarupa Damodara: Mahaprabhu?
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Krsna, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and…, the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: THERE IS RETURN, THAT IS VOLUNTARY. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: YES. AS SOON AS WE TRY, “OH, THIS MATERIAL WORLD IS VERY NICE,” “YES,” KRSNA SAYS, “YES, YOU GO.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. OTHERWISE WHAT IS THE MEANING OF FREE WILL? EVERY LIVING ENTITY HAS GOT A LITTLE FREE WILL. AND KRSNA IS SO KIND, HE GIVES HIM OPPORTUNITY, “ALL RIGHT, YOU ENJOY LIKE THIS.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”
Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: But then again there’s this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Krsna? This continues?
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahamsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of maya.
Paramahamsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that “If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail.” And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahamsa: Why?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Ignorance?
Prabhupada: Yes.
730806BG.LON Lectures
BECAUSE WE HAVE ALSO COME DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA SOME MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS BEFORE THE CREATION. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Visnu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.
So this chance is given. So if this chance is misused, this life, human form of life, it is very, very risky. Again we will have to accept the cycle of birth and death. AND NOT ONLY THAT, IF WE DO NOT FULFILL THE MISSION OF LIFE, THEN AGAIN THERE WILL BE ANNIHILATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION AND WE WILL HAVE TO STAY WITHIN THE BODY OF VISNU FOR MILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF YEARS. AGAIN WE WILL HAVE TO COME. SO THEREFORE IT IS CALLED ANADI KARAMA-PHALE. ANADI MEANS “BEFORE THE CREATION.” THIS IS GOING ON. And to teach the befooled living entities, Krsna personally comes. Krsna is very much anxious to take us back to home, back to Godhead. Because we are part and parcel of Krsna. Suppose if your son is loitering in the street, are you not anxious, “Oh, there may be some accident, and the poor boy will be killed.” So you go, try to find out. Similarly, Krsna’s position is like that. We are in this material world simply suffering life after life. Duhkhalayam asasvatam. This place is miserable. But maya’s illusion, we are taking this miserable condition of life as happiness. This is called maya.
RELATED: Origin of Jiva
https://harekrsna.org/the-souls-origin/
A wonderful contribution for sure. A contribution for erudite scholars but of absolutely no benefit to those who are suffering right now for want of Krsna consciousness to learn that the purpose of life is to revive one’s dormant love of God, Krsna. Let the scholars discuss such topics for as long as they like in their own personal elite confines while authorizing their positions by giving passing credit to Srila Prabhupada. It is Srila Prabhupada who is teaching and preaching to the whole world to lift them out of their miseries.
Articles like these do not build fellowship unless the original vessel of knowledge is explained to those in desperate need. Ignoring those in desperate need has to be there to keep out the original mercy that the Lord wants to share.
Indeed, keeping out the original mercy of the Lord and the people of Krsna’s planet in constant ignorance is a polite corruption of Lord Caitanya’s purpose. The Jivas Project would benefit humanity greatly if they would include the original Bhagavad Gita As It Is on their web site. In there they will find enough knowledge about the jiva or soul that others may understand first so that they too could move into a better understanding of the realities of what The Jivas Project is trying to say. However, that will not happen as The Jivas Project will always have an heir of sectarianism to it as a result while the world burns.
” iccha-dvesa-samutthena …….. ” Bhagavatgita As It Is 7.27 describes ;
PURPORT
The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies, but those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons, symptomatically, dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking, “This is my wife; this is my house; I am the master of this house; I am the husband of this wife.” These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and therefore cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. ”
We the Jivas have a tiny minute FREE will which is exercised at any TIME, PLACE and CIRCUMSTANCES to satisfy once’s desire . When the desire is separate from the service to the Lord , that desire binds the Jiva with the resultant desire of it and the Jiva becomes contaminated. Thus, the Jiva becomes separate from rendering the Service to the Lord under the grip of the stringent Law of Nature of the Lord. This is called and known as fall down from the Original constitutional position of the living entity which is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord in the pure knowledge. That is my simple understanding of the fall down of the Jiva.
I, the Conditioned Jiva, am trying very hard to revive my Original constitutional position in the Pure Knowledge given by our Jagat Guru His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada’s VANI in the association of His followers / devotees.
Make no mistake, it seems very easy but yet it is very very very difficult. Only the Jiva FREE from all Material desire can surpass easily. Otherwise, it becomes very difficult. One must not take a face value of such Practitioner as only the Practitioner knows where the shoes pinch.
Simply for the desire of certain ( a tiny subtle) satisfaction one must avoid such show of deceiving oneself and others knowingly and unknowingly for rendering such devotional service.
OM TAT SAT.
Hare Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I’ve just read excerpts from this book, and it is surprising and interesting to me. Since the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness – „It is neither sectarian nor dogmatic. It is the natural relationship of the living entities with the Supreme Soul.”, it would be good to read comments here that would respond to what is described in this book and not merely to the topic.
Pamho agtacbsp,putrada ekadasi ki jai,we never wake up to the reality yet we been always fallen and there’s no reason of fallen down for someone who is already fallen the only danger is to fall more down that’s why is important to chant hare Krishna to not get more degraded I know my point of view is not supported by the acharya neither to contradict srila prabhupada but I think we come from the mundane dream of maha Vishnu and everything is moving by that mystical dream but as soon as we think is my dream problem take place that’s why nobody fallen down from the eternal abode agtacbsp ys haribol
If Prabhupada’s philosophy is considered debatable due to its varying ideas, it is essential to delve deeper into the core of the Gaudiya philosophy. In the Gaudiya philosophy, Jiva does not descend from Vaikuntha. This is the fundamental principle. Sectarian notions and fanaticism have no place within the universal philosophy of Sriman Mahaprabhu.
Pamho agtacbsp, the material world is a unsettled and upsetting situation created by the karma and vikarma of the individual soul with the own free will outside krsna consciousness this is real fall down , it’s a nightmare the life journey of any citizen especially in this dark age many people kill themselves because don’t like the troublesome journey in the material world in kali yuga under the three gunas the confusion is increasing never disincreasing this is the material world the worse place to live full of enemies everywhere we can see the real face of this miserable material world through envy,lust,anger,etc…anyway we don’t forget that we are just passing through this bad dream we are not living this bad dream as the reality as many sudra are doing because that’s the mundane dream of MAHA VISNU. Agtacbsp ys haribol
Srila Prabhupada’s words are not “varying” but the the words of Lord Sri Krishna Himself, passed down through the disciplic succession of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya and as such are ‘in line’ with all the previous acharyas! so where is such concoction, or false notion of “sectarian notions?” but only in the minds of fools and rascals!
Jiva soul has free will eternally and so such notions of “fanaticism” are derived from a poor understanding of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy!
His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the sole Acharya and leading authority of this Gaudiya mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu for the next 10,000 years.
BV Narayana has also challenged Srila Prabhupada (on this and other points) but BV Narayana was an envious, gender-inverted sahajiya, who associated with gender-inverted Vrindavan fake Babajis, so perhaps this is the ‘source’ of your misinformation and your misinformed opinions?
Ram Das: In the Gaudiya philosophy, Jiva does not descend from Vaikuntha. This is the fundamental principle. Sectarian notions and fanaticism have no place within the universal philosophy of Sriman Mahaprabhu.
Mahesh: Gaudiya Matha DISOBEYED Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, consequently they not fit to understand the philosophy.
Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2260.htm
Analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s Letter to Rupanuga
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-07/editorials2250.htm
Please read the following letter from Srila Prabhupada to Rupanuga, April 28, 1974.
“You are right about Sridhara Maharaja’s genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, AT LEAST HE EXECUTES THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF DEVOTIONAL SERVICE. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”
My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. HE NEVER RECOMMENDED ANYONE TO BE ACARYA OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. BUT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DISOBEYING THIS ORDER OF GURU MAHARAJA, AND HE AND OTHERS WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD UNNECESSARILY THOUGHT THAT THERE MUST BE ONE ACARYA. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. THE RESULT IS NOW EVERYONE IS CLAIMING TO BE ACARYA EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE KANISTHA ADHIKARI WITH NO ABILITY TO PREACH. IN SOME OF THE CAMPS THE ACARYA IS BEING CHANGED THREE TIMES A YEAR. THEREFORE WE MAY NOT COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKE IN OUR ISKCON CAMP. ACTUALLY AMONGST MY GODBROTHERS NO ONE IS QUALIFIED TO BECOME ACARYA. SO IT IS BETTER NOT TO MIX WITH MY GODBROTHERS VERY INTIMATELY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF INSPIRING OUR STUDENTS AND DISCIPLES THEY MAY SOMETIMES POLLUTE THEM. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri Maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:
KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa’: “Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna. The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
SB 4.29.36-37 P Talks Between Narada and King Pracinabarhi
Bhakti refers to those activities performed in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Because Lord Vasudeva is the Supreme, one should engage oneself in His service, not in the service of the demigods. Devotional service begins from the neophyte stage–the stage of observing the rules and regulations–and extends to the point of spontaneous loving service to the Lord. The purpose of all stages is to satisfy Lord Vasudeva. When one is perfectly advanced in the devotional service of Vasudeva, one becomes completely detached from the service of the body, that is, his designated position in material existence. After becoming so detached, one becomes actually perfect in knowledge and engages perfectly in the service of Lord Vasudeva. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, JIVERA ‘SVARUPA’ HAYA–KRSNERA ‘NITYA-DASA’: “Every living entity is BY CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION AN ETERNAL SERVANT OF KRSNA.” As soon as one engages in the service of Lord Vasudeva, he attains his normal constitutional position. This position is called the liberated stage. Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih: in the liberated stage, one is situated in his original Krsna conscious position. He gives up all engagements in the service of matter, engagements concocted under the names of social service, national service, community service, dog service, automobile service and so many other services conducted under the illusion of “I” and mine.
Brahmajyoti is the ‘secondary’ origin for the impersonalists who have attained to sayujya-mukti. Apart from a very few who have been blessed with Bhakti and achieve eternal liberation, they ‘fall back down’ to the material conditioned existence. Those Jivas “fall from the Brahmajyoti”.
Srila Prabhupada speaks on: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.1.15
https://prabhupadavani.org/transcriptions/%C5%9Br%C4%ABmad-bh%C4%81gavatam-6115-710803sb/
Kulaśekhara: Could you explain a little bit about the position in which we were situated in the spiritual sky before coming to the material world?
Śyāmasundara: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?
Prabhupāda: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly, the sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Kṛṣṇa by the cloud of illusion, that is material.
Try to understand. There is logic[?]… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called māyā.When you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. And as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London; it is Vaikuṇṭha.
Devotees: Haribol!
Prabhupāda: Because here everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. They haven’t forgotten Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are in Vaikuṇṭha. Others may see that “Oh, you are in London. How you are in Vaikuṇṭha?” Just like Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe ‘rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]: God is situated in everyone’s heart. So everyone’s heart means He is in the heart of the hog also. But if the hog is within the stool, that does not mean Kṛṣṇa is also within the stool.
Similarly, the devotees, although they are in London or New York, they’re in Vaikuṇṭha. That is to be realized when one is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yatra tiṣṭhanti mad-bhaktā tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada [Padma Purāṇa]. Kṛṣṇa says, “I live there where My devotees are there.” So Kṛṣṇa can be everywhere where there is devotee.
So this “material world,” “spiritual world” means when you forget Kṛṣṇa, that is material. When you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is spiritual. That’s all. You may remain in the same place. Because everything is Kṛṣṇa’s—īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam [Īśo mantra 1]—so how you can distinguish what is material, what is spiritual?
If every, every part of the creation belongs to Kṛṣṇa, you cannot practically distinguish, “This portion is spiritual, this portion is material.” That distinction is due to our forgetfulness. So as soon as you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness you will find everything spiritual.
Guest (5): If one realizes the impersonal Brahman, what progress can be made here from this?
Prabhupāda: So if you realize impersonal Brahman, there is chance of falling down again to the material conception. Because you are person, you cannot remain in impersonal stage. Therefore to elevate, to be elevated in the impersonal stage means there is chance of falling down again.
But if you elevate yourself to the personal conception of the Absolute Truth, there is no falldown. Of course, because we are marginal potency of Kṛṣṇa, there is possibility of falldown always. But those who are strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not fall.
That’s all right. [end]
———————
Plain and simple! No Hoolabaloo! Material Consciouness–Material World! Krsnaconsciousness–Spiritual World! Or a mix, Your Mind–Your Choice! WOW, I love those lectures! PRABHUPADA VANI KI JAI!
Yes, have been subscribed to Prabhupadavani.org for over 5 years, Matchless Gifts!
Krsna consciousness ..acintya-bhedābheda-tattva
SB 2.1.39, Purport:
“The virāṭ-rūpa, or the gigantic feature of the Supreme Lord, includes everything materially manifested, and therefore the virāṭ or gigantic feature of the Lord is the Supersoul of all living and nonliving entities. But the virāṭ-rūpa is also the manifestation of Nārāyaṇa or Viṣṇu, and going further on and on one will eventually see that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate Supersoul of everything that be. The conclusion is that one should unhesitatingly become a worshiper of Lord Kṛṣṇa, or, for that matter, His plenary expansion Nārāyaṇa, and none else. In the Vedic hymns, it is clearly said that first of all Nārāyaṇa cast a glance over matter and thus there was creation. Before creation, there was neither Brahmā nor Śiva, and what to speak of others. Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya has definitely accepted this, that Nārāyaṇa is beyond the material creation and that all others are within the material creation. The whole material creation, therefore, is one with and different from Nārāyaṇa, simultaneously, and this supports the acintya-bhedābheda-tattva philosophy of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.”
BG 9.33, Purport:
“Some philosophers, especially Māyāvādī philosophers, say that this world is false, but we can understand from Bhagavad-gītā that the world is not false; it is temporary. There is a difference between temporary and false. This world is temporary, but there is another world, which is eternal. This world is miserable, but the other world is eternal and blissful.”
https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/This_world_is_false