He reasons ill who tells that Vaishnavas die,
When thou are living still in sound.
The Vaishnavas die to live, and living
try to Spread a holy life around!
PHYSICALLY DEPARTED / SPIRITUALLY PRESENT
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you’re not present with us , how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise…
Prabhupada: “If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way.” (BTG 13:1-2, December 1977) (Living Still in Sound)
Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ… answers are there in my books. (Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)
Prabhupada: Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered. ( Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)
You read the books, Then you’ll understand.
Interviewer: You are the translator of many books, from what I understand.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that translation, the book, will speak how I have translated.
Interviewer: Um hm. I was wondering…
Prabhupada: You read the books, Then you’ll understand. Instead of asking me, you better read the books. That is real understanding. (Interview with Newsweek – July 14, 1976, New York)
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop. Krishna Consciousness is not a hackneyed thing but it is something which is our natural and original consciousness. Presently our consciousness is clouded just like a mirror becomes covered with dust So the cleansing process is this chanting and hearing and doing some service and trying to please the Spiritual Master. By this process our consciousness becomes clear and we are able to understand everything. (Letter to: Bahurupa – Bombay 22 November, 1974)
Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice — in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered. (Letter to: Ranadhira – Los Angeles 24 January, 1970)
So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered. (Letter to: Upendra – Nellore 7 January, 1976)
I have instructed everything in my books. (Letter to: Dina Dayala, Mayapur, 25 February, 1976)
“Please continue reading my books seriously and everything will be revealed to you.” SPL (VI 1987) Babhru and Satyaki 18/09/75
In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.…You may please me the most by reading my books and following the instructions therein and by becoming fully Krishna Conscious in this life time. (Letter to: Bahurupa, Bombay, 22 November, 1974)
Physically Departed
750716pc.sf Conversations
Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?
Prabhupada: I WILL NEVER DIE.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupada: I SHALL LIVE FOR MY BOOKS, AND YOU WILL UTILIZE.
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Prabhupada: Yes, my Guru Maharaja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Maharaja? I think… Here is.
Guidance after physical departure
Indian Lady: … is that spiritual master still guiding after death?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Krsna is guiding us, similarly spiritual master will guide us. (General lectures, 69/09/23)
770517ar.vrn Conversations
Prabhupada: So I cannot speak. I am feeling very weak. I was to go to other places like Chandigarh program, but I cancelled the program because the condition of my health is very deteriorating. So I preferred to come to Vrndavana. If death takes place, let it take here. So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn’t matter.
As Krsna is living eternally, similarly, living being also lives eternally. But KIRTIR YASYA SA JIVATI: “ONE WHO HAS DONE SERVICE TO THE LORD LIVES FOREVER.” So you have been taught to serve Krsna, and with Krsna we’ll live eternally. Our life is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. A temporary disappearance of this body, it doesn’t matter. Body is meant for disappearance. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So live forever by serving Krsna.
Spiritually Present
Prabhupada: I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent. (Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)
Prabhupada: “So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living.”
“I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my guru maharaja” (Srila Prabhupada to Tamal Krishna, 14 July 1977)
It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life. (SB 3:31:48)
But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only with this spiritual connection. (Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)
Prabhupada: “Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words.
So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That is real association. (Lectures SB, 68/08/18)
There are two ways of association – by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the vani, not the physical presence.” (CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)
Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence. (Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)
Srila Prabhupada on Vapuh Versus Vani
Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you. (Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)
There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception is eternal.[…] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master, we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association. (Elevation to Krsna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page 57)
Devotee: …so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks ‘How will the Spiritual Master be pleased?’
Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I am associating with him by his words. (SB Lectures, 71/08/18)
Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To serve master’s word is more important than to serve physically. (Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)
So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may be in far distant place. (Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)
I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present there but spiritually I am always with you. (Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)
We are not separated actually. There are two – Vani or Vapuh – so Vapu is physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all the same. (Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)
So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his instruction, I never feel separated from him. (Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)
I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master’s word is more important than to serve him physically. (Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70)
SB 4.28.47 – The disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words). Physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.
I am the Spiritual Master of this institution
“Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”
Srila Prabhupada left this world on November 14th 1977 in Krishna’s holy land of Vrindavan. He had been translating his books and instructing his disciples to the very last, and left in the most auspicious circumstances, surrounded by his disciples chanting the maha-mantra.
He left behind a massive legacy of teachings in the form of numerous books, audio and video taped lectures and conversations, as well as a worldwide Movement. He said he had given everything necessary to go back home, back to Godhead, we just had to read his books, chant and follow his instructions. He taught that there was no difference to serving him when he was physically present, to doing so when he was absent. He would remain spiritually present in his books and instructions.
Just before his physical departure Srila Prabhupada set up a system of initiation employing the use of rittvik (ceremonial priests) who would continue to initiate on his behalf, without the need for any physical involvement from Srila Prabhupada. In this way, Srila Prabhupada could continue to initiate new disciples for as long as his Movement existed. Although some of his disciples became confused after his departure as to how initiation should continue, thankfully this situation is slowly being rectified to restoring Srila Prabhupada as the sole initiating guru for the Movement; just as Srila Prabhupada intended:
“Yes, I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all members of the society, they’re supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually.”
Thus Srila Prabhupada has left an open invitation for all future generations to become his direct initiated disciple if they so wish. Any sincere seeker of the truth who appreciates Srila Prabhupada’s glorious life and achievements, and carefully studies his teachings, must surely find this an attractive proposition.
Srila Prabhupada’s specific instructions for carrying out initiations in Iskcon after his physical disappearance as asked directly of him by his Governing Board Commissioners on May 28, 1977 was that he would soon recommend some of his disciples to act as officiating acaryas or ritviks representatives. In the following week on June 4, 1977 he wrote in his will that Iskcon directors would have to be his duly initiated disciples. This also confirms his no change “henceforward” order sent to all GBCs and temple presidents the following month (July 9, 1977) proclaiming his 11 chosen ritvik representatives that would initiate future disciples on his behalf even after his physical disappearance. These three seperate instructions are Srila Prabhupada’s actual replies to the direct question from his GBC disciples in charge of ISKCON management on how they should carry on initiations. Over the next 4 months until his physical disappearance, Srila Prabhupada never changed these orders either written or spoken.
Srila Prabhupada: “Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas.”
Tamala Krsna: “Is that called ritvik-acharya?”
Srila Prabhupada: “Ritvik yes.”
Srila Prabhupada clearly defined officiating acaryas as ritviks who initiate disciples on behalf of the spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupada: “…continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf.” (July 31th)
Ritviks are the priests authorized by the spiritual master or his institution to accept students on behalf of ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada made this perfectly clear. This understanding of the procedure Prabhupada prescribed is consistent with references to ritviks mentioned in Srila Prabhupada’s books. (Why the ritvik-system is bonafide)
Download: PDF
Physically_Departed-Spiritually_Present.pdf
Pamho agtacbsp, present,past,future,we always existed used to say Srila prabhupada,therefore death is another aspect of the truth,Srila prabhupada realized that truth and that’s the perfection of death, the vani seva of Sri Krishna is the most powerful then come the vani seva of the pure devotees as Srila prabhupada which help us even after the so called death while the vani seva of the guru hoaxes will finish in the coffin including their fake I and mine jivasya Mohan aham mameti, agtacbsp ys haribol
Hare Krishna,to make Srila prabhupada dead is like to make Krishna dead but Krishna never die the same is for His pure devotees, it’s a great offence to use the guru and kill Him by saying is dead,all these miserable abominable creatures forgot that the anger of a pure devotee can kill anyone,so we are not surprised to see all the murders to increase in f-iskcon , that’s a reaction to pay for killing by getting killed, actually this material world is dying through the factor time constantly and the last beat up is called death, everything is recording so whoever try to make Sri Krishna and His pure devotees to disappear get disappeared because one has to suffer very badly if one make a fake statement,therefore the future of iskcon is cursed through false statements by taking dead things like if they are alive and things that are alive as dead,Srila prabhupada is the saviour for His faithful disciples but can become a killer for the wretches who are still disrespecting Him and His iskcon bbt founder acharya Srila prabhupada ki jay,Ys ,haribol
Pamho agtacbsp, Srila prabhupada used to say that material world means enviousness and although our life almost finish there are still a lot of enemies inside and outside our temporary bodily vehicle that are waiting to get destroyed by keeping chanting hare Krishna,childhood got stolen by mistakes, boyhood got stolen by the tendency to cheat, manhood got stolen through imperfections and in this way all life get stolen by illusion at old age,the life journey of Srila prabhupada was a perfect example for all of us I mean He thought us how to become acharya a real guru by thinking that everything is moving by Krishna this consciousness is Krishna consciousness SP knew that everything is recording by so many witnesses therefore He been a practical saintly example to teach us that we are never alone,to think twice before to do something because invisible witness is there watching us all the time.agtacbsp Ys haribol
Thanks you.
The question begs “Why are there no ongoing kirtans or even talk of ongoing kirtans”
Sitting down philosophy and the banter of the books is great. Again why is there no steady daily talk about kirtan and getting it restarted on this wonderful site? Transcendental navel gazing is for those of us who have misplaced or lost the main purpose of this mission. HARI NAM SANKIRTAN!!
Reminds me of a guided tour of a wonderful green house. The problem is that there is no one in the green house so what use is it to be alone in that place.
Charles Dowson Prabhu Says:
Thanks you.
The question begs “Why are there no ongoing kirtans or even talk of ongoing kirtans”
Hari Nam Sankirtan (congregational chanting of The Holy Name) requires a ‘congregation’, so the answer to your question is obvious!
The main reason there are ‘no ongoing Kirtans’ is the same reason that your planned ‘Bhagavad Gita classes’ DID NOT GET ONE PERSON TO SIGN UP IN THE 18 MONTHS! So this is the reality that you should accept. It has nothing to do with any perceived lack of will by the devotees in general (your good self included!). The continuing degradation of the Kali Yuga will bring with it changing circumstances, mostly ‘for the worst’, and religious people will be increasingly persecuted! but this will present greater opportunities in the future. Eastern European countries interest in KC is increasing but in the West (in spite of our efforts) it has been in decline for a long time, as the West has become more degraded and irreligious.
Hare Krishna,whoever is thinking is alone must be considered out of mind,hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam bhaktir ucyate wherever there are the senses there is the master of the senses, training the mind in that way is very helpful in our daily challenges with the three guna,Srila prabhupada used to say that the perfection of life is to take prasada with krsna,to do everything with krsna, but one can’t do that if he think is alone, krsna say in the Gita yo mam smarati nityasah to remember HIm eternally ,don’t say that we are alone,anyway param vijayate Sri Krishna sankirtanam it’s the best company and medicine only for serious sadhakas who trying to not waste even a fraction of a second without the company of Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu ki jay, svayambhuva narada shambhoo Kumara kapilo Manu janako prahlada bhismo Bali vayasaki svayam ki jay agtacbsp ys haribol
Great wonderful long run on sentence. Of course we can pretty much do anything for Krsna can’t we?
Hare krsna, if we don’t do things for krsna by chanting His holy name we do things for the three guna ,is not the case that when the factor time is not engaged in krsna service come in contact with the three guna sangasya,is not difficult to chant hare krsna constantly i mean one can chant mentally also when is not possible verbally,to make sure we are always connected in association with the golden avatar by trying to do everything for Him and not with the guna that’s the perfection of life always in the company of krsna said Srila prabhupada,we got this golden chance to make our life journey perfect by chanting hare krsna we can do that by the mercy of SSGG,agtacbsp ys haribol
Hare Krishna.
The Physically Departed/ Spiritually Present concept is very important.
What the current Iskcon GBC have done is to dictate that to be properly Initiated you must have a physically present Diksha Guru, never mind if He/She is qualified or authorized.
And as an update of their Guru Tattva stance and resolutions the Iskcon GBC have introduced another weak concept of the supermarket Diksha Guru based on how Iskcon has evolved since 1977.
Their idea is that now most of Iskcon does not live in Temples any more but live outside the temples then they have to accommodate this phenomena by supplying Diksha Gurus more locally, on the supermarket shelves. The point is that Iskcon GBC cant renegade on the physically present diksha guru theory that they are stuck in, otherwise they lose the argument against the ritvik-vada. One of their main arguments against the ritvik-vada is the “conceptualized physically present diksha guru theory”.
So now for Iskcon GBC they have sought to change their Guru Tattva theory on the demography of devotees who may need Initiating in the future.
When Iskcon originally expanded exponentially Srila Prabhupada introduced the ritvik concept so He was the Diksha Guru and at local levels an Initiation Ceremony took place and devotees were Initiated by Temple Presidents etc, on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf. Never mind if Srila Prabhupada had met them or not. It was based on a recommendation.
So the Iskcon GBC have again diluted their Guru Tattva concepts by purely a demographic application.
However what we find in the Srimad Bhagavatam, and hardly ever quoted by any devotees, is 10.2.31 as follows;
Srimad Bhagavatam 10.2.31 Text and Purport by Srila Prabhupada.
TRANSLATION
O Lord, who resembles the shining sun, You are always ready to fulfill the desire of Your devotee, and therefore You are known as a desire tree [vāñchā-kalpataru]. When ācāryas completely take shelter under Your lotus feet in order to cross the fierce ocean of nescience, they leave behind on earth the method by which they cross, and because You are very merciful to Your other devotees, You accept this method to help them.
PURPORT
This statement reveals how the merciful ācāryas and the merciful Supreme Personality of Godhead together help the serious devotee who wants to return home, back to Godhead. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, in His teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī, said:
brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva
guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja
(Cc. Madhya 19.151)
One can achieve the seed of bhakti-latā, devotional service, by the mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa. The duty of the guru is to find the means, according to the time, the circumstances and the candidate, by which one can be induced to render devotional service, which Kṛṣṇa accepts from a candidate who wants to be successful in going back home, back to Godhead.
After wandering throughout the universe, a fortunate person within this material world seeks shelter of such a guru, or ācārya, who trains the devotee in the suitable ways to render service according to the circumstances so that the Supreme Personality of Godhead will accept the service. This makes it easier for the candidate to reach the ultimate destination. The ācārya’s duty, therefore, is to find the means by which devotees may render service according to references from śāstra. Rūpa Gosvāmī, for example, in order to help subsequent devotees, published such devotional books as Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Thus it is the duty of the ācārya to publish books that will help future candidates take up the method of service and become eligible to return home, back to Godhead, by the mercy of the Lord.
In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement , this same path is being prescribed and followed.
Thus the devotees have been advised to refrain from four sinful activities—illicit sex, intoxication, meat-eating and gambling—and to chant sixteen rounds a day. These are bona fide instructions.
Because in the Western countries constant chanting is not possible, one should not artificially imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but should follow this method. Kṛṣṇa will accept a devotee who strictly follows the regulative principles and the method prescribed in the various books and literatures published by the authorities. The ācārya gives the suitable method for crossing the ocean of nescience by accepting the boat of the Lord’s lotus feet, and if this method is strictly followed, the followers will ultimately reach the destination, by the grace of the Lord. This method is called ācārya-sampradāya. It is therefore said, sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā matāḥ (Padma Purāṇa). The ācārya-sampradāya is strictly bona fide. Therefore one must accept the ācārya-sampradāya; otherwise one’s endeavor will be futile. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore sings:
tāṅdera caraṇa sevi bhakta sane vāsa
janame janame haya, ei abhilāṣa
One must worship the lotus feet of the ācārya and live within the society of devotees. Then one’s endeavor to cross over nescience will surely be successful.
**************************************************************************************************************************
Does this proof and evidence not illustrate Srila Prabhupada’s position as the Sampradaya Acharya, which gives Him the position of providing the methodology from His Books for future candidates to accept Him as their Diksha Guru. He states towards the end of the purport that ” Therefore one must accept the “Acarya-Sampradaya”; otherwise one’s endeavor will be futile.”
Never mind what the Iskcon GBC are waffling about in terms of demography, here we are obliged to accept this Acharya Sampradaya methodology, which can be accepted through Srila Prabhupada’s Books.
What i dont understand is why the Iskcon GBC along with its Shastric Advisory Committee (SAC) have not come up with this very important piece of evidence provided in the Srimad Bhagagavatam?? How have they overlooked this proof for the last 45 years, dont they read Srila Prabhupada’s BOOKS? Does it not destroy their pre-conceived physically present Diksha Guru Theory?
Hare Krsna Dusyanta prabhu,
Thanks for quote and comments.
IMHO, it’s not ignorance of the sastric facts, it’s just that it goes against their take-over succession plans, from even prior to Srila Prabhupada physically leaving. The conspiracy has been revealed numerous times, but the Fiskcon oligarchs have ‘teflon’ skin.
The tongue in cheek quote comes to mind, “so many waiting to jump”… just like the monkeys waiting to steal!
Yfs, Balaram das.
Hare krsna,Srila prabhupada murder is been the most perfect murder under the supreme will of Sri krsna,that’s the real reason behind it,who can say is not?Srila prabhupada used to be a mukta purusa in his last karma and life in the material world,so he paid his last karma in that nasty way but he didn’t feel any pain because was a liberated soul beyond the tricky dualities of the material world. So Srila prabhupada predicted his death and beg his disciples to not torture him until death,so many disciples, saints, etc…they couldn’t nothing because that was the last karma to pay for a mukta purusa. Agtacbsp ys haribol
Hare krsna,most of the time we get mistreated,misunderstood through the influence of material nature in this alien world of strange creatures born from the refusal to serve krsna ,that means we already been evicted our permanent and blissful abode which is the eternal residence of Sri krsna bhagavat, now here we are struggling with janma,mrtyu, jara and vyadhi,everyone take us for what we are not and this misconception keep going until we find out who we really are? But people can’t understanding who we are by making a place full of suffering as a place full of enjoyment and the reaction is very bad as we can see almost everyone is fighting,swearing and struggle through misconception because we can’t see everything as it is until our senses become pure again by chanting hare krsna maha mantra. Agtacbsp ys haribol