Syamasundara: Plato’s understanding of the social order was based on his observation that man has a threefold division of intelligence, courage, and appetite. He said that the soul has these three qualities.
Srila Prabhupada: That is a mistake. The soul does not have any material qualities. The soul is pure, but because of his contact with the different qualities of material nature, he is “dressed” in various bodies. This Krsna consciousness movement aims at removing this material dress. Our first instruction is “You are not this body.” It appears that in his practical understanding Plato identified the soul with the bodily dress, and that does not show very good intelligence.
Syamasundara: Plato believed that man’s position is marginal—between matter and spirit—and therefore he also stressed the development of the body. He thought that everyone should be educated from an early age, and that part of that education should be gymnastics—to keep the body fit.
Srila Prabhupada: This means that in practice Plato very strongly identified the self as the body. What was Plato’s idea of education?
Syamasundara: To awaken the student to his natural position—whatever his natural abilities or talents are.
Srila Prabhupada: And what is that natural position?
Syamasundara: The position of moral goodness. In other words, Plato thought everyone should be educated to work in whatever way is best suited to awaken his natural moral goodness.
Srila Prabhupada: But moral goodness is not enough, because simple morality will not satisfy the soul. One has to go above morality—to Krsna consciousness. Of course, in this material world morality is taken as the highest principle, but there is another platform, which is called the transcendental (vasudeva) platform. Man’s highest perfection is on that platform, and this is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. However, because Western philosophers have no information of the vasudeva platform, they consider the material mode of goodness to be the highest perfection and the end of morality. But in this world even moral goodness is infected by the lower modes of ignorance and passion. You cannot find pure goodness (suddha-sattva) in this material world, for pure goodness is the transcendental platform. To come to the platform of pure goodness, which is the ideal, one has to undergo austerities (tapasa brahmacaryena samena ca damena ca [SB 6.1.13]). One has to practice celibacy and control the mind and senses. If he has money, he should distribute it in charity. Also, one should always be very clean. In this way one can rise to the platform of pure goodness.
There is another process for coming to the platform of pure goodness—and that is Krsna consciousness. If one becomes Krsna conscious, all the good qualities automatically develop in him. Automatically he leads a life of celibacy, controls his mind and senses, and has a charitable disposition. In this age of Kali, people cannot possibly be trained to engage in austerity. Formerly, a brahmacari [celibate student] would undergo austere training. Even though he might be from a royal or learned family, a brahmacari would humble himself and serve the spiritual master as a menial servant. He would immediately do whatever the spiritual master ordered. The brahmacari would beg alms from door to door and bring them to the spiritual master, claiming nothing for himself. Whatever he earned he would give to the spiritual master, because the spiritual master would not spoil the money by spending it for sense gratification—he would use it for Krsna. This is austerity. The brahmacari would also observe celibacy, and because he followed the directions of the spiritual master, his mind and senses were controlled.
Today, however, this austerity is very difficult to follow, so Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given the process of taking to Krsna consciousness directly. In this case, one need simply chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare and follow the regulative principles given by the spiritual master. Then one immediately rises to the platform of pure goodness.
Syamasundara: Plato thought the state should train citizens to be virtuous. His system of education went like this: For the first three years of life, the child should play and strengthen his body. From three to six, the child should learn religious stories. From seven to ten, he should learn gymnastics; from ten to thirteen, reading and writing; from fourteen to sixteen, poetry and music; from sixteen to eighteen, mathematics. And from eighteen to twenty, he should undergo military drill. From twenty to thirty-five, those who are scientific and philosophical should remain in school and continue learning, and the warriors should engage in military exercises.
Srila Prabhupada: Is this educational program for all men, or are there different types of education for different men?
Syamasundara: No, this is for everyone.
Srila Prabhupada: This is not very good. If a boy is intelligent and inclined to philosophy and theology, why should he be forced to undergo military training?
Syamasundara: Well, Plato said that everyone should undergo two years of military drill.
Srila Prabhupada: But why should someone waste two years? No one should waste even two days. This is nonsense—imperfect ideas.
Syamasundara: Plato said this type of education reveals what category a person belongs to. He did have the right idea that one belongs to a particular class according to his qualification.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that we also say, but we disagree that everyone should go through the same training. The spiritual master should judge the tendency or disposition of the student at the start of his education. He should be able to see whether a boy is fit for military training, administration, or philosophy, and then he should fully train the boy according to his particular tendency. If one is naturally inclined to philosophical study, why should he waste his time in the military? And if one is naturally inclined to military training, why should he waste his time with other things? Arjuna belonged to a ksatriya [warrior] family. He and his brothers were never trained as philosophers. Dronacarya was their master and teacher, and although he was a brahmana, he taught them Dhanur Veda [military science], not brahma-vidya. Brahma-vidya is theistic philosophy. No one should be trained in everything; that is a waste of time. If one is inclined toward production, business, or agriculture, he should be trained in those fields. If one is philosophical, he should be trained as a philosopher. If one is militaristic, he should be trained as a warrior. And if one has ordinary ability, he should remain a sudra, or laborer. This is stated by Narada Muni in Srimad-Bhagavatam: yasya yal-laksanam proktam. The four classes of society are recognized by their symptoms and qualifications. Narada Muni also says that one should be selected for training according to his qualifications. Even if one is born in a brahmana family, he should be considered a sudra if his qualifications are those of a sudra. And if one is born in a sudra family, he should be taken as a brahmana if his symptoms are brahminical. The spiritual master should be expert enough to recognize the tendencies of the student and immediately train him in that line. This is perfect education.
Perspectives on Science and Philosophy
Plato: Goodness and Government
Full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/JSD7.htm
Speak Your Mind