Prabhupada: “So Jesus Christ is Authorized.”

Guest (4): We believe that the message that God gave Joseph Smith was that the true church was not on the earth, and we believe that through Joseph Smith the true gospel of Jesus Christ was once again restored to the earth with all its power, with all its authority, and with the holy priesthood.

Prabhupada: So Jesus Christ is authorized.

Guest (4): Yes, Jesus Christ…

Prabhupada: So what is the order of Jesus Christ?

Guest (4): We believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That’s right, but what Jesus Christ says?

Devotee (4): What does Jesus Christ say? What is Jesus Christ saying? What are his instructions?

Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ, we believe that when he lived as a mortal man, he organized the church, and the people followed him…

Prabhupada: What is the instruction?

Guest (3): The instructions to Joseph Smith was, well, in a ten-year period of time, from 1820 to 1830 many things happened to Joseph Smith. One thing was that he was visited by an angel called Moronai, who lived fourteen hundred years earlier in the Americas, and he was a prophet, and he wrote a book and sealed it away, and it was written on gold plates. Joseph Smith translated this ancient work of Egyptian hieroglyphics into English, and it was called the Book of Mormon after a great prophet.

Prabhupada: So what is the message?

Guest (3): Well, the message is that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God.

Prabhupada: So what is the church of Jesus Christ?

Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ’s church, that’s simply it.

Prabhupada: What is that? What does he say, that “You do this. You do not do this”?

Guest (3): I don’t understand what…

Guest (4): You mean the Commandments and…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (4): Oh. There’s many Commandments in the church. We believe that Jesus Christ commanded Joseph Smith to restore the church.

Prabhupada: No, what is the Commandments?

Guest (4): This is one of them, that the church should be run by a prophet and twelve apostles. We believe in what is called the word of wisdom. This is abstaining…. This is much like your…

Prabhupada: Church. Church means…. Suppose…. There is no specific message that “The church should be conducted on this principle”? Is there any such message?

Guest (3): I think that the real thing is people have to accept Christ as their savior and make his atonement effective. See, when he made his atonement…

Prabhupada: What about his Commandments?

Guest (3): Well, his Commandments are…. We believe that Christ gave them to Moses as a…

Prabhupada: So what are the Commandments? You simply say, “It was given to him, it was given to him, it was given…”

Guest (3): The Ten Commandments?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): Those Commandments we follow? We believe Commandments of living the Sabbath Day, law of chastity…

Prabhupada: So whether they are being followed?

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: Chastity is being followed?

Guest (3): Yes. The church teaches it, and people who do not obey it are bringing condemnation upon themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is my injunct…, that if…. The commandment is that women should be chaste.

Guest (3): Exactly.

Prabhupada: And you should not kill. But all the Christians are killing.

Guest (3): Well…

Prabhupada: And it is very hard to find out a woman chaste.

Guest (3): That’s true.

Prabhupada: Then where is Christian?

Guest (3): Well, see, this is the great thing of the atonement. See, when Christ suffered the sins of the world on Gethsemane…

Prabhupada: So why for your sin Christ should suffer?

Guest (3): Christ suffered for my sins.

Prabhupada: Yes, why?

Guest (3): Well, because he loved us and he was the only begotten son of God.

Prabhupada: That means you’ll go on committing sins and Christ will suffer?

Guest (3): No, see Christ only forgives when you repent. See what I mean? See, this is the thing I want to say…

Prabhupada: But this has become a business, that I commit sin and repent. “We believe, I repent, and again I commit sin.” Do you think it is very good business?

Guest (3): Well, see this is the thing. Christianity has made it a business. So what we’re saying is we…

Prabhupada: That means they are not Christians.

Guest (3): That’s right.

Prabhupada: So then where is Christian?

Guest (3): Well, the Christian world that the majority of the people think is…

Prabhupada: Majority is not the calculation. Minority. If one person carries out the order of Christ, then he is Christian.

Guest (3): Exactly.

Prabhupada: Otherwise they are not Christians.

Guest (3): That’s right. But I just wanted to say one thing…

Prabhupada: Our principle is that if one person carries out the order of God, he is actually the prophet. If he does not carry out—simply by dress he is prophet—it is useless.

Guest (3): I see. All right. We have a little different feeling about that.

Prabhupada: Why it should be different?

Guest (3): Well, we would…

Prabhupada: If you [are] actually the servant of God, you must carry out the orders of God. There cannot be difference. If there is difference, that means you are no longer servant of God.

Guest (3): Well, we feel that God has always had prophets and called them Himself, as he called Mike Aran.(indistinct)

Prabhupada: But how the prophet can disobey the original orders of God or Christ?

Guest (4): How can a prophet disobey? We don’t…. A prophet doesn’t disobey. We believe that the prophet at the head of our church, Spencer W. Kimble, speaks with God…

Prabhupada: That’s nice.

Guest (3): And he conveys His messages on to us as church members and on to the rest of the world.

Prabhupada: My point is…. Just like the two points here: chastity and nonviolence. But this is not being carried out.

Guest (3): Well, we agree.

Prabhupada: Then where is the prophet and where is the followers?

Guest (3): Well, see, the prophet is teaching the people about this and teaching them to live it.

Prabhupada: That means people are not obeying the prophet.

Guest (3): Well, people are. We are.

Prabhupada: Then how it is said that…. How they are killing animals? How the women are unchaste?

Guest (4): All people aren’t following the prophet. All people in your belief aren’t following you completely.

Prabhupada: That is very nice. My point is that if we follow God— God’s message is carried by prophet, and prophet if obeyed by the people—then the religion is in order. Otherwise it is a bogus religion.

Guest (3): Well, I think we would agree there.