“Long History of Debate in America over Wealth”

Banker, September 21, 1973, Bombay: We have had a long history of debate in America over wealth. We have had one group, the fundamentalist Protestants, who argue that… Most of them are poor, and they feel very guilty if they have money. And then you have another group of Protestants, the Gospel of Wealth Protestants, who say that if you are truly holy, then it is better that the money be entrusted to your hands than to a man who is unholy. And then you have still another group that regards money as an end in itself, rather than a means to, committing you to do other things. And this confuses people in America. Your parents will be one thing, you’ll be another. In my case, my mother is a Gospel of Poverty person. Blessed are the poor. She thinks you won’t get into heaven unless you are poor. And I’m in the Gospel of Wealth category. And you just select your own philosophy along the way. Carnegie was in that philosophy. He even wrote a book about it a one hundred years ago. The steel Carnegie, Carnegie steel.

Prabhupada: Yes, Carnegie’s name I know.

Banker: He was one of the number one advocates of this philosophy, that if you are holy, then the money should be in your hands, because you can use it for better purposes.

Prabhupada: That is a good philosophy.

Banker: Therefore, then he started building libraries all over the country and everything else, besides his steel company. But this has been a big fight. It still is a big fight. Today you have the people who support welfare and those who oppose it.

Prabhupada: No. We don’t oppose wealth.

Banker: Welfare. Payment to people who don’t work.

Prabhupada: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brahmanas. The arms will give protection. That is the ksatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaisya. And the legs will carry the body. That is sudra. This is… Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, the vaisyas and the sudras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to… In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually. Now, the President Nixon, he is in the topmost post. He has no brain. Therefore he is being ridiculed. Neither he has honor. He is not resigning the post. He has been ridiculed by the people, but still, he is sticking to his post. So this is the defect. You have got in your country only the vaisyas, the belly and the legs. I am just giving a crude example. Not only in your country, every country nowadays. There is no brain. Brain is finished. Therefore everywhere you will find chaos and confusion. There is no brain. So this Krishna consciousness movement means we are creating some brain. We are not creating the technological expert, but we are creating brain to know the purpose of human life and work on it under a systematic way. That is Krishna consciousness. It is not such bluff that “In darkness you meditate this, that,” no. It is a science. It is a science, how the human society can be happy in all respects. And everything is directed there in the Bhagavad-gita. Just like to keep up your body fit, you require brain in order, your arms in order, your stomach in order, your legs in order. Everything must be in order. But out of all of them, if there is no brain, then everything is useless. The hand is useless, the stomach is useless, the leg is useless. So at the present moment there is no brain in the society. Lack of brain. All these things, directions, are there in the Bhagavad-gita. What is the brain, or brahmana? Find out this verse, samo damas titiksa, in the Eighteenth Chapter. Jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam.

Srutakirti:

samo damas tapah saucam ksantir arjavam eva ca jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]

“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.”

Prabhupada: So those who will act as brain, they must possess these qualities. But who is being taught these qualities? This modern civilization is teaching people how to steal, how to cheat, how to satisfy your own sense gratification. You see? No tolerance, no complete knowledge. All fools and rascals, no knowledge. Knowledge means they must know what is the aim of life, what is God, what we are, what is this material world, why we have come here. So many things. This is called God consciousness. There is no such educational institution all over the world. Is there any institution where it is being especially taught what is God, what I am. Is there any institution?

Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.

Prabhupada: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?

Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.

Prabhupada: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra.

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that “This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana.” Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Lady: But originally it wasn’t like that. Suppose if you are born into brahmana, fortunately, then you become brahmana.

Prabhupada: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not sastra. That is a… Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father’s training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brahmana family, if his father is actually brahmana, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, sama, dama, titiksa, arjavam, this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brahmana, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the sudra quality, then he must be accepted as sudra, not as a brahmana. That is the sastra. Yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35] If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in sudra or a vaisya, then he should be accepted as brahmana. Similarly if sudra qualities are found in the son of a brahmana, he should be accepted as sudra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brahmana, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gita it is said, “By quality…” guna-karma-vibhagasah. Read that, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13].

Brahmananda: Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Guna means quality, karma means the work.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guna- karma-vibhagasah. A brahmana or ksatriya or vaisya or sudra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brahmana. This is the (indistinct). But now in India they have taken: no quality, no work, still, he is brahmana. He is pulling on thela, no brahmana quality, neither work is brahmana, but still, he is panditji. I have seen it in Calcutta. One man was pulling on thela with great difficulty, and another man is offering respect, “Panditji, namaskara.” And he was… (Hindi) He was pulling thela. I have seen it. I have seen it in the street. You see. He is still thinking that “I am brahmana.” He is working like an ass. He has no qualification. Neither he is qualified. Still, he is thinking that he is brahmana. Is it not? Yes. That is the cause of India’s falldown. You work… These things should be… I am accepting somebody as brahmana; then I must see that he has the quality of brahmana, that is there, satya, sama, dama, titiksa, and he is working as a brahmana. When this was not examined, checked, anyone born in a brahmana family became a brahmana, the whole thing topsy-turvied. Just like my student here. He belongs to the ksatriya family. But he is not in the fighting, military plan. So he is not ksatriya. But he is now more than ksatriya. He is worshiping God. Therefore he is brahmana. He is neither ksatriya nor sudra. He is brahmana. His hereditary title is ksatriya, Ksanna. Ksat na, ksat na. He cannot tolerate injury to others. That is ksanna.

full conversation: http://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1973/sep/with_banker/bombay/september/21/1973